September 9, 2015 • 41 mins
It's easy to think of globalization as a new invention, but it really has its roots in the 16th century. Museum of Fine Arts Boston curator Dennis Carr talks to us about Asian influences on art in the colonial Americas thanks to this global trade.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class from how
Stuff Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast
on Trace B. Wilson and I'm Holly Frying. Today we
have an interview. I'm really excited about it. It's with
(00:21):
Dennis Carr, who is the Caroline and Peter Lynch, creator
of American Decorative Arts at the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston,
Allston's the m f A, and it's about something I
completely missed in history class. It's really easy to think
of globalization as a recent phenomenon and also to think
of Europe as the biggest influence on colonial art and
(00:44):
colonial life in North and South America. But as we're
going to talk about today, globalization really started in the
sixteenth century, and Asia's influence on the American colonies was huge.
So to set the stage a bit, the m f
A actually got in touch with us not long after
our episode on Katsushika Hokusai, and that episode followed Tracy's
(01:07):
visit to the m f A to see its hokus
I exhibition, and we talked a little bit in it
about how the work of Hokusai and other Japanese artists
influenced European artwork after Commodore Perry forced Japan to reopen
its borders in eighteen fifty three, and at that point
those borders had been closed for more than two hundred years.
So obviously the fact that it was reopening borders meant
(01:30):
that they had been open at some point in the past,
and so had the borders of many other Asian nations.
And that's what we're going to talk about today, how Japan, China,
India and other Asian nations had an enormous influence on
colonial arts, starting all the way back, as we said,
in the sixteenth century. So let's move it over to
(01:50):
the interview. So today I have with me this car
who's the Caroline and Peter Lynch, curator of American Decorative
Arts at the Museum of Fine Arts of Boston also
known as the m f A. Thank you so much
for being on the show today, Dennis, it's my pleasure
(02:13):
of Tracy. Thank you. Um So, the exhibition you've just
curated is called Made in the America's The New World
Discovers Asia. Can you kind of describe the story that
you were trying to tell with your curation of this exhibition? Well,
the story of the exhibition begins in the sixteenth century,
(02:33):
when for the first time there's direct trade between Asia
and the America's and that trade, which lasts for two
and a half centuries, impacts art production throughout Latin America
in places like Mexico and Peru, but also Brazil and
North America. Cities like Boston and Philadelphia and New York
(02:55):
and even Quebec City all are impacted by the importation
of Asian objects, and artists in these locations started making
art that looked a lot more like the Asian imports.
So the exhibition itself is really focused on decorative art
and decorative art obviously from your title is your focus?
(03:15):
Is this same international fusion also present in paintings and
sculptures of the time as well. It is, but a
little less so in oil paintings, which are often done
in a European tradition. But what's interesting to me are
the unusual kinds of paintings that are made in places
like Mexico City. There's a technique that develops in the
(03:38):
seventeenth century in response to the importation of Japanese lacquerware
that's in inlaid with mother of pearl, and these paintings
are called an concado literally shelled or shell work paintings.
Concha in Spanish means shell, and these paintings are literally
inlaid with thin sheets of mother of pearl. And then
(04:01):
the artist builds up the service with jesso and then
over paints with oil, paints and glazes and creates this
incredible luminescent surface for paintings. So a major source of
this influx of Asian objects into the Americas during this
time came from what was known as the Manila galleons.
(04:23):
So the whole trade between Manila and Acapulca. Can you
tell me a little bit about these galleons and and
how that whole trade route came to be. Yes, after
fifteen sixty five, the Spanish um were in control of
the Philippines, and after they sounded the colonial city of Manila,
they began trading directly between Manila and Acapulco, Mexico. And
(04:48):
for roughly two and a half centuries, the Spanish ships
laden with goods collected from across Asia, Chinese textiles and
max Japanese lack a wares and folding screens, um carved ivories,
from the Philippines, textiles from India, and of course spices
(05:09):
and even Asian slaves were brought on board these Manila
galleons that sailed from Manila northward towards Japan following the
trade winds. They would make landfall on the western side
of what's now the America's and then head south land
and Acapulco and sell their wares in these spectacular fairs
(05:30):
that happened. You can imagine what you know, Acapulco would
come to life when the ships arrived from Manila. That's
one of the things that was really so fascinating to
me about this exhibition is that we all kind of
learned an elementary school that when Columbus made his original
voyages he was looking for a sea route to get
(05:53):
to Asia, and then it seems like that story just started,
it sort of stops there. A lot of kids then
don't learn that even though there wasn't a direct sea
route to Asia, there was still a lot of trade
with Asia with sort of the Americas as a bridge.
And so seeing all of these objects that are evidence
of that. Uh So he was hugely fascinating in the exhibition,
(06:16):
I would say, this is history that I wasn't taught
in school. You're right. The history I was taught is
about the connection between Europe and the New World, but
not about Asia and the New World. So this exhibition
tries to tell a story that I think will be
unfamiliar to many who come to see the show. And
this is sort of the four and fiftieth anniversary of
(06:37):
the establishment of this Manila to Acapoco trade, right it is,
in fact, Yeah, the first ship sailed in fifteen sixty
five and fifty years ago, and then regular trade begins
in fifteen seventy three and last until eighteen fifteen, a
really long time. And of course this is long before
(07:00):
the pilgrims landed in Massachusetts or you know there are
settlers in Jamestown. I mean, the history of the America's
begins much earlier than um the standard story of the
formation of the British colonies in the America's and the
(07:20):
cities of Latin America were very, very wealthy, and very
cosmopolitan and globally connected from an early date. And that's
also much earlier than we think about the phenomenon of globalization.
I would say that the average person today thinks of
globalization in terms of McDonald's and Starbucks being all over
(07:41):
the world, when really this is a process that started
hundreds of years ago. Yeah, today we live in a
globalized world, everybody understands that. But the roots of this
world we live in today, um started back in the
sixteenth century with the discovery and settlements and colonization of
(08:03):
the America's by the European powers. And once at the
America's come on the map, so to speak, they became
they become a lynchpin in the trade between Asia and
Europe and Africa. So during the time that this this
ongoing trade was happening between Manila and Mexico at the
(08:24):
same time, during part of it, the Rococo and Baroque
styles were really having their heyday in Europe, which were
similarly very heavily embellished and very colorful. Where do you
think are the chicken and the egg in this situation?
Was it that Europe was just primed to really love
all of these Asian designs because those uh, those aspects
(08:45):
were already very very popular in European artwork, or is
it the other way around? Well, Europeans have always been
fascinated by Eastern art. Um. Of course, Europe was trading
with Asia going back a long long time, but the
direct trade routes that are established in the sixteenth century
(09:07):
allow a much larger quantity of goods to be traded
and brought to Europe and to Europe's colonies in the
America's and there was great interest in Europe among intellectuals
and tastemakers in the seventeenth century. And this develops into
a style that goes hand in hand with the Baroque
and Rococo styles that you mentioned. That's called the Shinwasuri
(09:31):
or in the Chinese taste. People didn't call it shin
wa zurri in the period. It's the term that we've
applied to this artistic style that begins in the late
seventeenth century and reaches its height by the middle of
the eighteenth century. And the Shinwasuri resulted in really interesting
(09:52):
buildings and textiles and ceramics and paintings and furniture and
any number of objects made in Europe and the America's
in an Asian style, and they're not exactly correct, you know,
they don't look a lot like Asian art per se um.
They're inventive and creative and very fanciful interpretations of Asian
(10:18):
styles and um and this is very very popular throughout Europe,
both in the courts but also among the gentry. I
think my most favorite object in this exhibition is a
desk and bookcase from the mid eighteenth century from Mexico
and it has that Shinwasarie interior which is not very
(10:41):
vibrant gold on red um and that's you have spoken
about this particular piece on a video on the m
f A site and in other places. Can you talk
about this desk and bookcase and what makes it so
amazing in terms of an object that represents this whole
global trade. This is also one of my most favorite
(11:02):
objects in the exhibition, and it's never been seen before.
It's in a private collection and it's never been in
a museum exhibition before. So it's really exciting to present
such a spectacular object to the public. And the reason
I like it so much is it does you know
embody this new global style that develops UM during the
(11:22):
colonial period in the Americas. So the outside of this
spectacular object is made up of very intricate inlays of
wood and bone in a Islamic pattern that descends from
the Moor's occupation of Spain. Remember, the Moor's controlled much
of Spain for nearly eight centuries, and the Spanish finally
(11:46):
kick the Moors out of southern Spain in a decisive battle.
And that this happens in the same year Columbus discovers
America and Spain shifts with attention across the Atlantic to
the New World. So the outside of this desk has
a style that descends from the Moors period in Spain,
but that's still very popular in places like Mexico where
(12:08):
this piece was made in the mid eighteenth century. But
the inside is a spectacular red interior with gold painting
as you mentioned, in a Chinwasurie style. But what's really
fascinating about this object when you open the doors, and
I should mention that this desk has a twin that's
in a museum collection in Pueblo, Mexico. And if you
(12:30):
put these two desks together, there are four maps on
the two doors of each desk, and these maps show
a property in Veracruz, Mexico that was owned by a
very wealthy Spanish family going back to the sixteenth century.
And I've studied indigenous mat making traditions from the sixteenth century,
(12:53):
and we've in fact compared the maps in the desk
to sixteenth century maps of this property in Vera Cruz,
and they relate very closely stylistically. So it suggests to
me that an indigenous painter was at work on the
interior of this very elaborate desk and bookcase. But it's
mixed with the Shinwasurie taste for Asian objects, so it's
(13:17):
a really it's a hybrid between indigenous map making traditions
and the new Shinwasurie style that was popular in the
eighteenth century, and that the estate that's actually mapped on
the inside of those doors was one of Mexico's earliest
free African settlements. Correct, it was, and in fact they're
in the maps of this property. We see many Africans depicted,
(13:40):
and they're likely to be the descendants of the original
African slaves that were brought to Mexico in the sixteenth century.
The whole thing is just amazing to have that many
influences in one object that we can look at today.
This a piece like this is only possible after the
sixteenth century, when all the world's great land masses are
(14:03):
finally interconnected and communicating. So, Holly, I sent you a
picture of this death because I was so excited about it.
It is so beautiful. I feel like that's one of
those pieces of furniture that take it out of the
(14:24):
historical context. Just pretend you had a piece like that
in your house and you look at it from the
outside and go, oh, that's lovely, and then you open
it up and it's this beautiful red and gold, just
magically decorated, absolutely beautiful piece Like I wouldn't even care
what was stored in the desk at that point, I
just want to look at that beautiful, sparkly work on
(14:45):
the interior. It still amazes me, even after having seen
the thing and talked to Dennis Carr about it, that, uh,
there are that many pieces of different influences in this
one desk, and it's it's pair that's in a different museum.
So before we move on to the next part of
our interview, let's have a brief word from a sponsor
(15:07):
that sounds grand. So next up we are going to
hear about an indigenous resin technique that did not make
it into my original set of questions because there are
just so so many things that I could have asked
Dennis car about. So I was delighted when this one
came up naturally as part of the answer. Uh, it
(15:29):
is just it's a fascinating use of local materials to
make art. Another thing that I like about the exhibition
in general and this piece specifically, is that several of
the objects and it uh in a in a way
(15:51):
preserved indigenous art and craft techniques even as their subject
matter changed. Right. So we have coconell dye, which was
a traditional dye that already existed in in Central and
South America used to make tapestries in an Asian style,
um or the Jesuit religious order, commissioning things that were
(16:14):
made with indigenous featherwork techniques. H. Are there any other
examples where in working with curating this exhibition you found
things where it seemed like normally the story of of
colonialism in North and South America is sort of one
of European influence steamrolling over everything. But this particular exhibition
(16:39):
has stories of things that were preserved. H Can you
can you think of other examples of that being the case? Yeah,
there were many are indigenous artistic traditions that are preserved
during the colonial period, and one that comes to mind
are the indigenous lacquer work traditions of both Mexico and
(17:00):
South America. Indigenous artists were before the arrival of the
Spanish for many many years creating objects with a hard, resinous,
colorful surface that was used to waterproof gourds and other
vessels for carrying liquids and foods. And during the Colloial
(17:21):
period they used the same resinous material in South America
was called mopa mopa, which comes from the Mopa mopa tree.
It's a it comes out of the flowers of the
Mopa mopa tree and it it hardens quickly, so it
had to be chewed to soften it. And the indigenous
artists would mix this Mopa mopa with pigments and clays
(17:44):
to make it opaque and colorful. And once it once
they chewed it to soften it, they would stretch it
in their teeth into super thin sheets that would then
be cut out with designs and patterns, and those patterns
were applied to the surfaces of objects. And is a
really fascinating fusion between indigenous craftsmanship and the imported Asian
(18:06):
lacquer objects that really had a tremendous impact throughout the
America's So that's one tradition South America, and there's a
second tradition in Mexico along the same lines. They use
different materials. In this case, UM they're using chia c
to oil. Chias are now popular again, UM the t
(18:27):
SD to oil and a he which is a fat
derived from an indigenous insect, mixed again with clays and
pigments to create UM, a hard, resinous surface which they
apply to a number of objects in imitation of the
Japanese laquers. It's a move for a moment to North America.
(18:48):
Another of the objects in the exhibition that I really
like is a little stoneware teapot from China that dates
back to seventeen fifty. And at that point, obviously Britain
was still controlling trade to the North American colonies and
tea was extremely popular, so there were lots of imported
objects that were all about tea and serving tea and
drinking tea. How did Asian imports to North America change
(19:11):
after the Revolutionary War once the United States started managing
its own trade agreements. Yeah, this story of the China
trade is better known to our audiences UM. It's the
story of direct trade between UM, the newly founded United
States of America and Asia. And this trade wasn't permitted
(19:31):
under the British government, but became possible in the seventeen
eighties and for the first time North Americans from you know,
New England and the mid Atlantic were able to custom
order objects right from China and sales ships directly to China.
And there was quite a brisk trade UM between America
(19:51):
and Asia in the late eighteenth century. And the teapot
you mentioned was owned in Salem, Massachusett. It's by a
ship captain who likely imported it in UM the mid
or late eighteenth century. And we also have a wonderful
embroidered Indian palampore or bed cover hanging. It's absolutely spectacular,
(20:15):
and like the teapot, it has a local history as
well from the eighteenth century. It was owned in the
Dick's family of Boston. So Americans really, for the first time,
we're able to import directly all these spectacular objects from
India all the way to East Asia. To turn away
from sort of the some specific things in the collection
(20:36):
and more into some general trends that I noticed while
looking at the exhibition when I visited and in reading
the exhibition catalog, one of the things that comes up
a lot is that people in North and South America
and in in Europe described all of these Asian goods
that were being imported as being from China, regardless of
(20:56):
where in Asia they were actually from. And this actually
included people the enslaved Asians who came aboard the galleons
were referred to as she knows or Chinos. So why
do you think China specifically became synonymous for all of
Asia during this period? You know, this is also a
(21:16):
modern phenomenon. We still refer to porcelain ceramics as China
no matter where they're from. UM. But certainly in the
sixteenth century and later, right at the moment of discovery,
people in the America's didn't fully understand where all these
optics were coming from. And they were also coming on
the same boats, So whether it was coming from the Philippines,
(21:39):
are coming from China or Japan, or other parts of
East Asia, or even India, it was hard to differentiate, um,
exactly where all of these goods were being produced. UM.
And in Mexico, the Indian cloth was called Indiania, but
they were also referring to all porcelains as from China,
(22:03):
and even folding screens that could have come from Japan
or China, they would often refer to them as being
from China. So, uh, there there's a painting in the
exhibition that is a cast painting, and these are paintings
that were usually done in a series, and they kind
of outlined this racial and ethnic hierarchy that emerged, especially
(22:23):
in Mexico with the influence of all of these different factors.
Um and the reason that this is this is in
the exhibition is that the man's coat has obviously inspired
by Fabrican designs from India, but the people in the
painting are also really interesting because the painting is sort
of documenting a Spanish man, his African wife, and their son.
(22:47):
So I was really curious if you had any insights
into what exactly it was about the the social and
ethnic atmosphere in Mexico that sort of spawned this whole
genre of art about documenting how different races and classes
(23:08):
worked together as families. Mexico was a very complicated place
in the eighteenth century. It was a global crossroads and
as a result, they were people from all over the
world living there, including many, many different types of indigenous groups.
There were obviously the European imports who came to colonize.
(23:29):
There were African slaves and free blacks living in Mexico.
There were also Asian slaves and free Asians living in Mexico.
And as a result, people were very interested in the
different interracial mixing that was taking place in Mexico, especially
the Spaniards in Spain who were in charge of colonial
(23:50):
of controlling this colonial place. And many of the costa
paintings were painted in large sets and they were sent
to Vane And if you look at the costa paintings,
the depictions are are fairly positive. People tend to be
very well dressed and getting along. And these were very
(24:14):
positive statements painted by colonial Mexicans and sent to Spain,
kind of advertising that, yes, Mexico was very complicated, but
everything was under control, so to speak. And remember this
was the time of the Enlightenment, where when people were
very interested in organizing the natural world around them, including people.
(24:36):
And the same artists in Mexico who painted these costa
paintings or task paintings oftentimes also were painting similar paintings
of birds and flowers from Mexico and the New World.
So it's part of this larger interest in classifying and
organizing um the world are helping. I am so glad
(25:02):
that we got to ask Dennis about these casta paintings.
I did my own research on them after I got
home from the exhibition, but none of the research that
I did made the connection that he just made that
all of this was going on at the time of
the Enlightenment, when people were really into categorizing things and
making taxonomies. Like that connection just had not come about
(25:23):
from any of the things that I had read. So
we're going to take another brief pause for another word
from a sponsor, and then we will move on to
the conclusion of this interview. That sounds like a fabulous idea,
So next up we're Tracy's going to get into some
of her last questions with Dennis, including about how his education,
(25:43):
just like ours, really did not spend a lot of
time on the Latin American history that is really a
big part of this exhibition. So it's quite fascinating. So
the next The mission has been described as as revealing
a largely overlooked history and I think it's obvious from
(26:05):
our conversation that there are parts that people just have
not learned about. Do you have any theories for why
that is, for why this aspect of the colonial America's
has just not talked about very much? Well? Going through school,
I didn't learn a lot about Latin American history, and
that history certainly predates the British settlement in the America's
(26:29):
And you know, to me, as an Americanist, I and
with the interest in Latin America and the pre Hispanic past,
the whole world has been opened up. To me. It's
a fascinating and very complicated history. And when you look
at the trade not only between Europe and the New World,
but between Asia and the New World, you see Latin
(26:51):
America and all of the America's as really central to
an astounding global history that we hope to bring out
some aspects of in this new exhibition. Do you think
there was a reciprocal influence in Asia as it had
more and more contact with Latin America. There was, especially
(27:14):
in places that were settled by Europeans, like Manila, for example.
There's there are loan words, words that go back and
forth between the two places. Um places like China and
Japan and other areas of Asia that were large producers
of luxury goods didn't really want a lot from the
(27:35):
West and of objects. They could produce porcelains better than
the West, they produced better textiles in the West, for example,
but what they really wanted, especially in China, was silver,
which was increasingly becoming a major component of the Chinese economy.
And it was just at this moment when when the
(27:56):
Americas were discovered, and vast quantities of silver were discovered
in Central Mexico and Peru now modern day Bolivia. So
the America's became extremely wealthy right at this period when
they're first connected with Asia, and they have what Asia wanted,
which was the raw silver. So in payment for all
(28:21):
the luxury goods that were being imported from Asia, they
were sending silver from the America's and that's what kept
this trade going and going so strong for so many centuries.
So during a lot of the same time period, Australia
was also being colonized. Do you think there is a
similar international fusion of artworking colonial Australia as well, Probably,
(28:45):
but I have no idea about that. That's one of
those things that. Yeah, I'm like, I know this is
completely out of the scoope of this particular exhibition, but
I am very curious to know if that would also
be true. Um, apart from the desk, which I love
so much, which which has the maps of of a
free African community, do you think any of the objects
(29:08):
that are in this exhibition show an influence from enslaved Africans. Well,
we see an African woman in the costa painting, and
we also see the influence of Islamic art in the
outside of the desk and bookcase, but there are the
(29:29):
signs of other African influence in the art of the
Americas is harder to find, and likewise, we don't have
direct evidence that there were Asians at work in the
Americans in the America's producing art as well. We know
there were many Asians living in the Americas, but to
the extent that they were actually artists and producing art,
(29:50):
that is very unclear in the historical record. So there
are just so many different pieces in this exhibition, and
they used so any different materials and styles. We've already
talked about the desk a couple of times being a
favorite of both of ours. Do you have any other
particular favorites. Another favorite of mine is a seventeenth or
(30:14):
early eighteenth century Peruvian textile that is made by culturally
inco weavers in Peru, but it mimics the Chinese export textiles.
And we have a wonderful example from the Metropolitan Museum
of Art that we've paired with the m F A
(30:34):
s spectacular peruving example. And it's the first time that
we've brought these two textiles together, and it's fascinating to
compare them side by side. I agree with you, I've
stood there. I came to see the exhibition on on Friday,
and I stid' well, I live in I live in Boston.
(30:55):
Our office is in Atlanta, coincidentally, and conducting it in
a be with you where I live from Atlanta. Uh
So I came to see the exhibition on Friday, and
I stood in front of the two of them and
just sort of marveled at how number one, how intricate
and beautiful they both are. But how once you know
(31:16):
what to look for, you can see all of the
things that are obvious, an obvious Asian influence, and then
all of these other little touches that are native to
the area. UM. And there are several things in the
in the exhibition that you can sort of see that same. Oh,
I see where the influences, and I see where the
local pieces of it are. UM. So yeah, I really
(31:40):
enjoyed it. It's beautiful so much. You're welcome. So when
when you were getting ready to do this exhibition, it's
it's clear through our conversation that that you you wanted
to sort of put together an exhibition that documented this
piece of history that hasn't really been uh congealed together
(32:01):
in an American museum before. What did you think that
was going to be? Like, Well, it's a challenging project,
and there have been many scholars who have worked on
this topic over the years, and there have been exhibitions
that have um focused on various aspects of this very
large topic. But this exhibition puts a lot of things
(32:24):
together that I don't think people have seen before. It
puts together art from Boston next to art from Quebec City,
next to art from Mexico City, or Lima, Peru, or Quito, Ecuador,
to really take a broad view of the America's during
the colonial period, and that will be surprising to visitors
(32:45):
as well. So did the did the end result of
the exhibition? How how did that compare to what you
sort of initially expected when you started working on it. Well,
it's like producing a Hollywood movie. You don't know how
it's going to turn out in the end, and you
bring in objects from different collections, gathered from different parts
(33:10):
of the country. We have a few international loans that
and you don't really know what they're gonna look like together.
You cross your fingers and hope it goes well. But
I have to say, we have a spectacular design team
at the m f A and they did an incredible
job with the show and really brought these objects to life.
And we're able to place things side by side and
(33:35):
um create an opportunity for objects to have conversations with
each other across the Americas. And that to me is
it just makes my day, makes my job so worthwhile.
That's really beautiful. Is is there anything else that you
want to make sure that our listeners know about the
exhibition or the history that has inspired it. Well, I
hope they're excited about this topic, even if they don't
(33:57):
know much about it coming into the show. But it's
a beautiful exit vision with a lot of really complicated
stories of indigenous life in the America's and colonial life
in the America's and um, how the America's became a
centerpiece in a new world. Thank you so much. So listeners,
(34:18):
if you are in the Boston, Massachusetts area, this exhibition
is ongoing until February sixteen, and we're also going to
link to the m f AS page on the exhibition
so you can actually see what a lot of these
objects look like and and get a better sense of
the things that we are talking about. Thank you again
(34:38):
so much, Dennis for talking to me today. Thank you,
and I hope everyone comes to see the show. I
I encourage anyone who can do it to do it.
I really I thought it was very beautifully arranged, with
a lot of just intricate, delicate, lovely pieces that all
tell a really unique story that I had not ever
(35:00):
heard about, really or or thought about until I got
into the show. Great, it's a it's a rare opportunity
to see many of these objects together, and some for
the very first time in public. So, Holly, I loved
(35:20):
this interview and I loved the exhibition. I feel like
so often when we are talking about stories about the
colonial America's a lot of a lot of the stories
that we tell are pretty tragic, because a lot of
times the tragic stories are are not as focused on
as much as like the more sort of patriotic, inspiring
(35:42):
this is what led us to be a great nation
kind of stories, uh, in various history classes. So like,
that's one thing that is often overlooked. But another thing
that's often overlooked is this part, like the various ways
that art and decorative art especially used to gather all
of these different elements of all of these different colonial
(36:03):
influences to make something new. And I am the appropriate
level of jealous that you've got to go bask in
the glory of this exhibition. And now that we're done
with all of the note taking and all the research
and all of the preparation and all of that, I
am going to bring the exhibition catalog with me the
next time I come to the office so that you
can look all through it. And that's actually something that
is also available to other people. Uh, it's available for purchase.
(36:27):
It's called Made in the America's The New World discovers Asia,
and it's this really lovely hardcover book it's a hundred
and sixty pages long, and it's just full of information
and pictures of all of these objects and artworks that
we talked about today. We're also gonna link to all
of them from our show notes. So if you were
in New England or traveling to that area, this exhibition
(36:48):
is in the Museum of Fine Arts Boston until February sixteen.
Then it will head to the winter sur Museum, Garden
and Library in Delaware and it will be there from
March twenty sixteen to January eighth, seventeen, so you'll have
pretty significant window to get in there and see it.
Winter thir is just outside Wilmington's and it's an hour
(37:09):
or so from Philadelphia. So hopefully lots of our listeners
will get to see this because there's some absolutely spectacular pieces. Yeah,
we're definitely also, as I said earlier, going to link
to the m fhas page for this exhibition, which has
a slide show of some of the the pieces that
are in It has a video from Dennis Carr talking
about the exhibition. There's a lot of stuff to look
(37:31):
at their in addition to the exhibition catalog and the
exhibition itself and now do you have a little bit
of listener mail for us? And do you have listener mail?
And it is from a little bit of an older episode,
but it was too interesting not to share. It is
from Britt, and Britt says, I just finished listening to
the Saint Kitts Slave Revolt of eighteen thirty four, and
I thought i'd mentioned another island museum but actually does
(37:52):
a great job of highlighting slavery in their history and
engages visitors with a really interesting and informative exhibit without
shying away from some truths. I'm gonna pause reading the
letter for a second to say we had said. I
had said specifically at the beginning of that episode that
I had been to several museums in the Caribbean and
many of them glossed completely over the existence of slavery
(38:15):
and it's enormous influence on a lot of Caribbean islands.
Um and then that was not the case at all
for the St. Kitts National Museum. So, to get back
to the letter, Bermuda does not fit into the category
of a Caribbean island. However, it shares a lot of
post colonial similarities, like an epic history of trade the
British Royal Navy, basically taking over for a serious chuck
(38:37):
of time to our benefit. To be fair and unfortunately, slavery.
Their largest museum, the National Museum of Bermuda, has a
breath of exhibits that includes the good, bad, and ugly
of the island's history. I grew up in Bermuda and
spent a lot of time at the museum versus a
visitor that has a research intern and finally using it
as a focus of my master's thesis. Part of my
(38:59):
research and pouring over online reviews looking at how visitors,
in most cases American cruise tourists, liked or disliked the museum.
A lot of people complained about the goat pooh. It's
true they have goats on the property to maintain the grass,
but they pooh everywhere, and when I was a kid,
my dad, who grew up on a farm, used to
throw it at me all the time. The big hill
(39:20):
to walk up, old horror. But many people also commended
the museum on their brave exhibit on slavery. The building
that it is housed in underwent something crazy like a
tenure renovation, and I vaguely remember when they opened it
and most of the exhibits inside, including the slave trade
and slavery in Bermuda, there was a press conference that
really addressed the topic. It started a discussion amongst the
(39:43):
public and people outside of the museum world. And I
even believe that the government issued an apology. Don't take
that as gospel, though my ten year old mind may
have just imagined imagined that. So basically, this is a
long winded way to say, cruise to Bermuda, go visit
their awesome museum and it's literally a stone's throw away
from the cruise port, and go check out their great
(40:04):
exhibit on slavery and a bunch of other really awesome
ones with iPads. If you don't want to cruise, slash
fly over there, you should take out their Facebook, slash
Instagram since their website is still crazy outdated to see
some of the awesome exhibits and their collections keep being awesome.
I love the podcast and listen to it at all
hours of the day. Britt. Thank you so much Britt
(40:25):
for writing that is super interesting. And I want to
specify I have not been to Bermuda or its museum,
and I would like to take Britt up on that invitation,
let's go, let's go right now? Maybe not. Maybe when
it's cold is when we should go. So thank you
Britt for writing to us about that. If you'd like
to write to us about this or any other podcast,
we're at history podcast that how Stuffworks dot com. We're
(40:47):
also on Facebook at Facebook dot com slash miss in
history and on Twitter at miss in History. Our tumbler
is at missed in history dot tumbler dot com and
are also unpinterested at dot com slash missed in History.
We have a new instagram also, we are at miss
in history on Instagram. If you would like to come
to our website, please please do. We are going to
have a picture of the desk that we spent so
(41:08):
much time talking about today in our show notes, which
we do for every episode. We're also going to have
a link to this exhibition at the Museum of Fine
Arts website, lots of other awesome information, and you can
come to our parent company's website, which is how stuff
Works dot com to learn all kinds of other interesting stuff.
So you can do all that and a whole lot
more at how stuff works dot com or miss in
(41:28):
history dot com for more on this, thousands of other topics.
Is it how stuff works? Dot com
Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class from how
Stuff Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast
on Trace B. Wilson and I'm Holly Frying. Today we
have an interview. I'm really excited about it. It's with
(00:21):
Dennis Carr, who is the Caroline and Peter Lynch, creator
of American Decorative Arts at the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston,
Allston's the m f A, and it's about something I
completely missed in history class. It's really easy to think
of globalization as a recent phenomenon and also to think
of Europe as the biggest influence on colonial art and
(00:44):
colonial life in North and South America. But as we're
going to talk about today, globalization really started in the
sixteenth century, and Asia's influence on the American colonies was huge.
So to set the stage a bit, the m f
A actually got in touch with us not long after
our episode on Katsushika Hokusai, and that episode followed Tracy's
(01:07):
visit to the m f A to see its hokus
I exhibition, and we talked a little bit in it
about how the work of Hokusai and other Japanese artists
influenced European artwork after Commodore Perry forced Japan to reopen
its borders in eighteen fifty three, and at that point
those borders had been closed for more than two hundred years.
So obviously the fact that it was reopening borders meant
(01:30):
that they had been open at some point in the past,
and so had the borders of many other Asian nations.
And that's what we're going to talk about today, how Japan, China,
India and other Asian nations had an enormous influence on
colonial arts, starting all the way back, as we said,
in the sixteenth century. So let's move it over to
(01:50):
the interview. So today I have with me this car
who's the Caroline and Peter Lynch, curator of American Decorative
Arts at the Museum of Fine Arts of Boston also
known as the m f A. Thank you so much
for being on the show today, Dennis, it's my pleasure
(02:13):
of Tracy. Thank you. Um So, the exhibition you've just
curated is called Made in the America's The New World
Discovers Asia. Can you kind of describe the story that
you were trying to tell with your curation of this exhibition? Well,
the story of the exhibition begins in the sixteenth century,
(02:33):
when for the first time there's direct trade between Asia
and the America's and that trade, which lasts for two
and a half centuries, impacts art production throughout Latin America
in places like Mexico and Peru, but also Brazil and
North America. Cities like Boston and Philadelphia and New York
(02:55):
and even Quebec City all are impacted by the importation
of Asian objects, and artists in these locations started making
art that looked a lot more like the Asian imports.
So the exhibition itself is really focused on decorative art
and decorative art obviously from your title is your focus?
(03:15):
Is this same international fusion also present in paintings and
sculptures of the time as well. It is, but a
little less so in oil paintings, which are often done
in a European tradition. But what's interesting to me are
the unusual kinds of paintings that are made in places
like Mexico City. There's a technique that develops in the
(03:38):
seventeenth century in response to the importation of Japanese lacquerware
that's in inlaid with mother of pearl, and these paintings
are called an concado literally shelled or shell work paintings.
Concha in Spanish means shell, and these paintings are literally
inlaid with thin sheets of mother of pearl. And then
(04:01):
the artist builds up the service with jesso and then
over paints with oil, paints and glazes and creates this
incredible luminescent surface for paintings. So a major source of
this influx of Asian objects into the Americas during this
time came from what was known as the Manila galleons.
(04:23):
So the whole trade between Manila and Acapulca. Can you
tell me a little bit about these galleons and and
how that whole trade route came to be. Yes, after
fifteen sixty five, the Spanish um were in control of
the Philippines, and after they sounded the colonial city of Manila,
they began trading directly between Manila and Acapulco, Mexico. And
(04:48):
for roughly two and a half centuries, the Spanish ships
laden with goods collected from across Asia, Chinese textiles and
max Japanese lack a wares and folding screens, um carved ivories,
from the Philippines, textiles from India, and of course spices
(05:09):
and even Asian slaves were brought on board these Manila
galleons that sailed from Manila northward towards Japan following the
trade winds. They would make landfall on the western side
of what's now the America's and then head south land
and Acapulco and sell their wares in these spectacular fairs
(05:30):
that happened. You can imagine what you know, Acapulco would
come to life when the ships arrived from Manila. That's
one of the things that was really so fascinating to
me about this exhibition is that we all kind of
learned an elementary school that when Columbus made his original
voyages he was looking for a sea route to get
(05:53):
to Asia, and then it seems like that story just started,
it sort of stops there. A lot of kids then
don't learn that even though there wasn't a direct sea
route to Asia, there was still a lot of trade
with Asia with sort of the Americas as a bridge.
And so seeing all of these objects that are evidence
of that. Uh So he was hugely fascinating in the exhibition,
(06:16):
I would say, this is history that I wasn't taught
in school. You're right. The history I was taught is
about the connection between Europe and the New World, but
not about Asia and the New World. So this exhibition
tries to tell a story that I think will be
unfamiliar to many who come to see the show. And
this is sort of the four and fiftieth anniversary of
(06:37):
the establishment of this Manila to Acapoco trade, right it is,
in fact, Yeah, the first ship sailed in fifteen sixty
five and fifty years ago, and then regular trade begins
in fifteen seventy three and last until eighteen fifteen, a
really long time. And of course this is long before
(07:00):
the pilgrims landed in Massachusetts or you know there are
settlers in Jamestown. I mean, the history of the America's
begins much earlier than um the standard story of the
formation of the British colonies in the America's and the
(07:20):
cities of Latin America were very, very wealthy, and very
cosmopolitan and globally connected from an early date. And that's
also much earlier than we think about the phenomenon of globalization.
I would say that the average person today thinks of
globalization in terms of McDonald's and Starbucks being all over
(07:41):
the world, when really this is a process that started
hundreds of years ago. Yeah, today we live in a
globalized world, everybody understands that. But the roots of this
world we live in today, um started back in the
sixteenth century with the discovery and settlements and colonization of
(08:03):
the America's by the European powers. And once at the
America's come on the map, so to speak, they became
they become a lynchpin in the trade between Asia and
Europe and Africa. So during the time that this this
ongoing trade was happening between Manila and Mexico at the
(08:24):
same time, during part of it, the Rococo and Baroque
styles were really having their heyday in Europe, which were
similarly very heavily embellished and very colorful. Where do you
think are the chicken and the egg in this situation?
Was it that Europe was just primed to really love
all of these Asian designs because those uh, those aspects
(08:45):
were already very very popular in European artwork, or is
it the other way around? Well, Europeans have always been
fascinated by Eastern art. Um. Of course, Europe was trading
with Asia going back a long long time, but the
direct trade routes that are established in the sixteenth century
(09:07):
allow a much larger quantity of goods to be traded
and brought to Europe and to Europe's colonies in the
America's and there was great interest in Europe among intellectuals
and tastemakers in the seventeenth century. And this develops into
a style that goes hand in hand with the Baroque
and Rococo styles that you mentioned. That's called the Shinwasuri
(09:31):
or in the Chinese taste. People didn't call it shin
wa zurri in the period. It's the term that we've
applied to this artistic style that begins in the late
seventeenth century and reaches its height by the middle of
the eighteenth century. And the Shinwasuri resulted in really interesting
(09:52):
buildings and textiles and ceramics and paintings and furniture and
any number of objects made in Europe and the America's
in an Asian style, and they're not exactly correct, you know,
they don't look a lot like Asian art per se um.
They're inventive and creative and very fanciful interpretations of Asian
(10:18):
styles and um and this is very very popular throughout Europe,
both in the courts but also among the gentry. I
think my most favorite object in this exhibition is a
desk and bookcase from the mid eighteenth century from Mexico
and it has that Shinwasarie interior which is not very
(10:41):
vibrant gold on red um and that's you have spoken
about this particular piece on a video on the m
f A site and in other places. Can you talk
about this desk and bookcase and what makes it so
amazing in terms of an object that represents this whole
global trade. This is also one of my most favorite
(11:02):
objects in the exhibition, and it's never been seen before.
It's in a private collection and it's never been in
a museum exhibition before. So it's really exciting to present
such a spectacular object to the public. And the reason
I like it so much is it does you know
embody this new global style that develops UM during the
(11:22):
colonial period in the Americas. So the outside of this
spectacular object is made up of very intricate inlays of
wood and bone in a Islamic pattern that descends from
the Moor's occupation of Spain. Remember, the Moor's controlled much
of Spain for nearly eight centuries, and the Spanish finally
(11:46):
kick the Moors out of southern Spain in a decisive battle.
And that this happens in the same year Columbus discovers
America and Spain shifts with attention across the Atlantic to
the New World. So the outside of this desk has
a style that descends from the Moors period in Spain,
but that's still very popular in places like Mexico where
(12:08):
this piece was made in the mid eighteenth century. But
the inside is a spectacular red interior with gold painting
as you mentioned, in a Chinwasurie style. But what's really
fascinating about this object when you open the doors, and
I should mention that this desk has a twin that's
in a museum collection in Pueblo, Mexico. And if you
(12:30):
put these two desks together, there are four maps on
the two doors of each desk, and these maps show
a property in Veracruz, Mexico that was owned by a
very wealthy Spanish family going back to the sixteenth century.
And I've studied indigenous mat making traditions from the sixteenth century,
(12:53):
and we've in fact compared the maps in the desk
to sixteenth century maps of this property in Vera Cruz,
and they relate very closely stylistically. So it suggests to
me that an indigenous painter was at work on the
interior of this very elaborate desk and bookcase. But it's
mixed with the Shinwasurie taste for Asian objects, so it's
(13:17):
a really it's a hybrid between indigenous map making traditions
and the new Shinwasurie style that was popular in the
eighteenth century, and that the estate that's actually mapped on
the inside of those doors was one of Mexico's earliest
free African settlements. Correct, it was, and in fact they're
in the maps of this property. We see many Africans depicted,
(13:40):
and they're likely to be the descendants of the original
African slaves that were brought to Mexico in the sixteenth century.
The whole thing is just amazing to have that many
influences in one object that we can look at today.
This a piece like this is only possible after the
sixteenth century, when all the world's great land masses are
(14:03):
finally interconnected and communicating. So, Holly, I sent you a
picture of this death because I was so excited about it.
It is so beautiful. I feel like that's one of
those pieces of furniture that take it out of the
(14:24):
historical context. Just pretend you had a piece like that
in your house and you look at it from the
outside and go, oh, that's lovely, and then you open
it up and it's this beautiful red and gold, just
magically decorated, absolutely beautiful piece Like I wouldn't even care
what was stored in the desk at that point, I
just want to look at that beautiful, sparkly work on
(14:45):
the interior. It still amazes me, even after having seen
the thing and talked to Dennis Carr about it, that, uh,
there are that many pieces of different influences in this
one desk, and it's it's pair that's in a different museum.
So before we move on to the next part of
our interview, let's have a brief word from a sponsor
(15:07):
that sounds grand. So next up we are going to
hear about an indigenous resin technique that did not make
it into my original set of questions because there are
just so so many things that I could have asked
Dennis car about. So I was delighted when this one
came up naturally as part of the answer. Uh, it
(15:29):
is just it's a fascinating use of local materials to
make art. Another thing that I like about the exhibition
in general and this piece specifically, is that several of
the objects and it uh in a in a way
(15:51):
preserved indigenous art and craft techniques even as their subject
matter changed. Right. So we have coconell dye, which was
a traditional dye that already existed in in Central and
South America used to make tapestries in an Asian style,
um or the Jesuit religious order, commissioning things that were
(16:14):
made with indigenous featherwork techniques. H. Are there any other
examples where in working with curating this exhibition you found
things where it seemed like normally the story of of
colonialism in North and South America is sort of one
of European influence steamrolling over everything. But this particular exhibition
(16:39):
has stories of things that were preserved. H Can you
can you think of other examples of that being the case? Yeah,
there were many are indigenous artistic traditions that are preserved
during the colonial period, and one that comes to mind
are the indigenous lacquer work traditions of both Mexico and
(17:00):
South America. Indigenous artists were before the arrival of the
Spanish for many many years creating objects with a hard, resinous,
colorful surface that was used to waterproof gourds and other
vessels for carrying liquids and foods. And during the Colloial
(17:21):
period they used the same resinous material in South America
was called mopa mopa, which comes from the Mopa mopa tree.
It's a it comes out of the flowers of the
Mopa mopa tree and it it hardens quickly, so it
had to be chewed to soften it. And the indigenous
artists would mix this Mopa mopa with pigments and clays
(17:44):
to make it opaque and colorful. And once it once
they chewed it to soften it, they would stretch it
in their teeth into super thin sheets that would then
be cut out with designs and patterns, and those patterns
were applied to the surfaces of objects. And is a
really fascinating fusion between indigenous craftsmanship and the imported Asian
(18:06):
lacquer objects that really had a tremendous impact throughout the
America's So that's one tradition South America, and there's a
second tradition in Mexico along the same lines. They use
different materials. In this case, UM they're using chia c
to oil. Chias are now popular again, UM the t
(18:27):
SD to oil and a he which is a fat
derived from an indigenous insect, mixed again with clays and
pigments to create UM, a hard, resinous surface which they
apply to a number of objects in imitation of the
Japanese laquers. It's a move for a moment to North America.
(18:48):
Another of the objects in the exhibition that I really
like is a little stoneware teapot from China that dates
back to seventeen fifty. And at that point, obviously Britain
was still controlling trade to the North American colonies and
tea was extremely popular, so there were lots of imported
objects that were all about tea and serving tea and
drinking tea. How did Asian imports to North America change
(19:11):
after the Revolutionary War once the United States started managing
its own trade agreements. Yeah, this story of the China
trade is better known to our audiences UM. It's the
story of direct trade between UM, the newly founded United
States of America and Asia. And this trade wasn't permitted
(19:31):
under the British government, but became possible in the seventeen
eighties and for the first time North Americans from you know,
New England and the mid Atlantic were able to custom
order objects right from China and sales ships directly to China.
And there was quite a brisk trade UM between America
(19:51):
and Asia in the late eighteenth century. And the teapot
you mentioned was owned in Salem, Massachusett. It's by a
ship captain who likely imported it in UM the mid
or late eighteenth century. And we also have a wonderful
embroidered Indian palampore or bed cover hanging. It's absolutely spectacular,
(20:15):
and like the teapot, it has a local history as
well from the eighteenth century. It was owned in the
Dick's family of Boston. So Americans really, for the first time,
we're able to import directly all these spectacular objects from
India all the way to East Asia. To turn away
from sort of the some specific things in the collection
(20:36):
and more into some general trends that I noticed while
looking at the exhibition when I visited and in reading
the exhibition catalog, one of the things that comes up
a lot is that people in North and South America
and in in Europe described all of these Asian goods
that were being imported as being from China, regardless of
(20:56):
where in Asia they were actually from. And this actually
included people the enslaved Asians who came aboard the galleons
were referred to as she knows or Chinos. So why
do you think China specifically became synonymous for all of
Asia during this period? You know, this is also a
(21:16):
modern phenomenon. We still refer to porcelain ceramics as China
no matter where they're from. UM. But certainly in the
sixteenth century and later, right at the moment of discovery,
people in the America's didn't fully understand where all these
optics were coming from. And they were also coming on
the same boats, So whether it was coming from the Philippines,
(21:39):
are coming from China or Japan, or other parts of
East Asia, or even India, it was hard to differentiate, um,
exactly where all of these goods were being produced. UM.
And in Mexico, the Indian cloth was called Indiania, but
they were also referring to all porcelains as from China,
(22:03):
and even folding screens that could have come from Japan
or China, they would often refer to them as being
from China. So, uh, there there's a painting in the
exhibition that is a cast painting, and these are paintings
that were usually done in a series, and they kind
of outlined this racial and ethnic hierarchy that emerged, especially
(22:23):
in Mexico with the influence of all of these different factors.
Um and the reason that this is this is in
the exhibition is that the man's coat has obviously inspired
by Fabrican designs from India, but the people in the
painting are also really interesting because the painting is sort
of documenting a Spanish man, his African wife, and their son.
(22:47):
So I was really curious if you had any insights
into what exactly it was about the the social and
ethnic atmosphere in Mexico that sort of spawned this whole
genre of art about documenting how different races and classes
(23:08):
worked together as families. Mexico was a very complicated place
in the eighteenth century. It was a global crossroads and
as a result, they were people from all over the
world living there, including many, many different types of indigenous groups.
There were obviously the European imports who came to colonize.
(23:29):
There were African slaves and free blacks living in Mexico.
There were also Asian slaves and free Asians living in Mexico.
And as a result, people were very interested in the
different interracial mixing that was taking place in Mexico, especially
the Spaniards in Spain who were in charge of colonial
(23:50):
of controlling this colonial place. And many of the costa
paintings were painted in large sets and they were sent
to Vane And if you look at the costa paintings,
the depictions are are fairly positive. People tend to be
very well dressed and getting along. And these were very
(24:14):
positive statements painted by colonial Mexicans and sent to Spain,
kind of advertising that, yes, Mexico was very complicated, but
everything was under control, so to speak. And remember this
was the time of the Enlightenment, where when people were
very interested in organizing the natural world around them, including people.
(24:36):
And the same artists in Mexico who painted these costa
paintings or task paintings oftentimes also were painting similar paintings
of birds and flowers from Mexico and the New World.
So it's part of this larger interest in classifying and
organizing um the world are helping. I am so glad
(25:02):
that we got to ask Dennis about these casta paintings.
I did my own research on them after I got
home from the exhibition, but none of the research that
I did made the connection that he just made that
all of this was going on at the time of
the Enlightenment, when people were really into categorizing things and
making taxonomies. Like that connection just had not come about
(25:23):
from any of the things that I had read. So
we're going to take another brief pause for another word
from a sponsor, and then we will move on to
the conclusion of this interview. That sounds like a fabulous idea,
So next up we're Tracy's going to get into some
of her last questions with Dennis, including about how his education,
(25:43):
just like ours, really did not spend a lot of
time on the Latin American history that is really a
big part of this exhibition. So it's quite fascinating. So
the next The mission has been described as as revealing
a largely overlooked history and I think it's obvious from
(26:05):
our conversation that there are parts that people just have
not learned about. Do you have any theories for why
that is, for why this aspect of the colonial America's
has just not talked about very much? Well? Going through school,
I didn't learn a lot about Latin American history, and
that history certainly predates the British settlement in the America's
(26:29):
And you know, to me, as an Americanist, I and
with the interest in Latin America and the pre Hispanic past,
the whole world has been opened up. To me. It's
a fascinating and very complicated history. And when you look
at the trade not only between Europe and the New World,
but between Asia and the New World, you see Latin
(26:51):
America and all of the America's as really central to
an astounding global history that we hope to bring out
some aspects of in this new exhibition. Do you think
there was a reciprocal influence in Asia as it had
more and more contact with Latin America. There was, especially
(27:14):
in places that were settled by Europeans, like Manila, for example.
There's there are loan words, words that go back and
forth between the two places. Um places like China and
Japan and other areas of Asia that were large producers
of luxury goods didn't really want a lot from the
(27:35):
West and of objects. They could produce porcelains better than
the West, they produced better textiles in the West, for example,
but what they really wanted, especially in China, was silver,
which was increasingly becoming a major component of the Chinese economy.
And it was just at this moment when when the
(27:56):
Americas were discovered, and vast quantities of silver were discovered
in Central Mexico and Peru now modern day Bolivia. So
the America's became extremely wealthy right at this period when
they're first connected with Asia, and they have what Asia wanted,
which was the raw silver. So in payment for all
(28:21):
the luxury goods that were being imported from Asia, they
were sending silver from the America's and that's what kept
this trade going and going so strong for so many centuries.
So during a lot of the same time period, Australia
was also being colonized. Do you think there is a
similar international fusion of artworking colonial Australia as well, Probably,
(28:45):
but I have no idea about that. That's one of
those things that. Yeah, I'm like, I know this is
completely out of the scoope of this particular exhibition, but
I am very curious to know if that would also
be true. Um, apart from the desk, which I love
so much, which which has the maps of of a
free African community, do you think any of the objects
(29:08):
that are in this exhibition show an influence from enslaved Africans. Well,
we see an African woman in the costa painting, and
we also see the influence of Islamic art in the
outside of the desk and bookcase, but there are the
(29:29):
signs of other African influence in the art of the
Americas is harder to find, and likewise, we don't have
direct evidence that there were Asians at work in the
Americans in the America's producing art as well. We know
there were many Asians living in the Americas, but to
the extent that they were actually artists and producing art,
(29:50):
that is very unclear in the historical record. So there
are just so many different pieces in this exhibition, and
they used so any different materials and styles. We've already
talked about the desk a couple of times being a
favorite of both of ours. Do you have any other
particular favorites. Another favorite of mine is a seventeenth or
(30:14):
early eighteenth century Peruvian textile that is made by culturally
inco weavers in Peru, but it mimics the Chinese export textiles.
And we have a wonderful example from the Metropolitan Museum
of Art that we've paired with the m F A
(30:34):
s spectacular peruving example. And it's the first time that
we've brought these two textiles together, and it's fascinating to
compare them side by side. I agree with you, I've
stood there. I came to see the exhibition on on Friday,
and I stid' well, I live in I live in Boston.
(30:55):
Our office is in Atlanta, coincidentally, and conducting it in
a be with you where I live from Atlanta. Uh
So I came to see the exhibition on Friday, and
I stood in front of the two of them and
just sort of marveled at how number one, how intricate
and beautiful they both are. But how once you know
(31:16):
what to look for, you can see all of the
things that are obvious, an obvious Asian influence, and then
all of these other little touches that are native to
the area. UM. And there are several things in the
in the exhibition that you can sort of see that same. Oh,
I see where the influences, and I see where the
local pieces of it are. UM. So yeah, I really
(31:40):
enjoyed it. It's beautiful so much. You're welcome. So when
when you were getting ready to do this exhibition, it's
it's clear through our conversation that that you you wanted
to sort of put together an exhibition that documented this
piece of history that hasn't really been uh congealed together
(32:01):
in an American museum before. What did you think that
was going to be? Like, Well, it's a challenging project,
and there have been many scholars who have worked on
this topic over the years, and there have been exhibitions
that have um focused on various aspects of this very
large topic. But this exhibition puts a lot of things
(32:24):
together that I don't think people have seen before. It
puts together art from Boston next to art from Quebec City,
next to art from Mexico City, or Lima, Peru, or Quito, Ecuador,
to really take a broad view of the America's during
the colonial period, and that will be surprising to visitors
(32:45):
as well. So did the did the end result of
the exhibition? How how did that compare to what you
sort of initially expected when you started working on it. Well,
it's like producing a Hollywood movie. You don't know how
it's going to turn out in the end, and you
bring in objects from different collections, gathered from different parts
(33:10):
of the country. We have a few international loans that
and you don't really know what they're gonna look like together.
You cross your fingers and hope it goes well. But
I have to say, we have a spectacular design team
at the m f A and they did an incredible
job with the show and really brought these objects to life.
And we're able to place things side by side and
(33:35):
um create an opportunity for objects to have conversations with
each other across the Americas. And that to me is
it just makes my day, makes my job so worthwhile.
That's really beautiful. Is is there anything else that you
want to make sure that our listeners know about the
exhibition or the history that has inspired it. Well, I
hope they're excited about this topic, even if they don't
(33:57):
know much about it coming into the show. But it's
a beautiful exit vision with a lot of really complicated
stories of indigenous life in the America's and colonial life
in the America's and um, how the America's became a
centerpiece in a new world. Thank you so much. So listeners,
(34:18):
if you are in the Boston, Massachusetts area, this exhibition
is ongoing until February sixteen, and we're also going to
link to the m f AS page on the exhibition
so you can actually see what a lot of these
objects look like and and get a better sense of
the things that we are talking about. Thank you again
(34:38):
so much, Dennis for talking to me today. Thank you,
and I hope everyone comes to see the show. I
I encourage anyone who can do it to do it.
I really I thought it was very beautifully arranged, with
a lot of just intricate, delicate, lovely pieces that all
tell a really unique story that I had not ever
(35:00):
heard about, really or or thought about until I got
into the show. Great, it's a it's a rare opportunity
to see many of these objects together, and some for
the very first time in public. So, Holly, I loved
(35:20):
this interview and I loved the exhibition. I feel like
so often when we are talking about stories about the
colonial America's a lot of a lot of the stories
that we tell are pretty tragic, because a lot of
times the tragic stories are are not as focused on
as much as like the more sort of patriotic, inspiring
(35:42):
this is what led us to be a great nation
kind of stories, uh, in various history classes. So like,
that's one thing that is often overlooked. But another thing
that's often overlooked is this part, like the various ways
that art and decorative art especially used to gather all
of these different elements of all of these different colonial
(36:03):
influences to make something new. And I am the appropriate
level of jealous that you've got to go bask in
the glory of this exhibition. And now that we're done
with all of the note taking and all the research
and all of the preparation and all of that, I
am going to bring the exhibition catalog with me the
next time I come to the office so that you
can look all through it. And that's actually something that
is also available to other people. Uh, it's available for purchase.
(36:27):
It's called Made in the America's The New World discovers Asia,
and it's this really lovely hardcover book it's a hundred
and sixty pages long, and it's just full of information
and pictures of all of these objects and artworks that
we talked about today. We're also gonna link to all
of them from our show notes. So if you were
in New England or traveling to that area, this exhibition
(36:48):
is in the Museum of Fine Arts Boston until February sixteen.
Then it will head to the winter sur Museum, Garden
and Library in Delaware and it will be there from
March twenty sixteen to January eighth, seventeen, so you'll have
pretty significant window to get in there and see it.
Winter thir is just outside Wilmington's and it's an hour
(37:09):
or so from Philadelphia. So hopefully lots of our listeners
will get to see this because there's some absolutely spectacular pieces. Yeah,
we're definitely also, as I said earlier, going to link
to the m fhas page for this exhibition, which has
a slide show of some of the the pieces that
are in It has a video from Dennis Carr talking
about the exhibition. There's a lot of stuff to look
(37:31):
at their in addition to the exhibition catalog and the
exhibition itself and now do you have a little bit
of listener mail for us? And do you have listener mail?
And it is from a little bit of an older episode,
but it was too interesting not to share. It is
from Britt, and Britt says, I just finished listening to
the Saint Kitts Slave Revolt of eighteen thirty four, and
I thought i'd mentioned another island museum but actually does
(37:52):
a great job of highlighting slavery in their history and
engages visitors with a really interesting and informative exhibit without
shying away from some truths. I'm gonna pause reading the
letter for a second to say we had said. I
had said specifically at the beginning of that episode that
I had been to several museums in the Caribbean and
many of them glossed completely over the existence of slavery
(38:15):
and it's enormous influence on a lot of Caribbean islands.
Um and then that was not the case at all
for the St. Kitts National Museum. So, to get back
to the letter, Bermuda does not fit into the category
of a Caribbean island. However, it shares a lot of
post colonial similarities, like an epic history of trade the
British Royal Navy, basically taking over for a serious chuck
(38:37):
of time to our benefit. To be fair and unfortunately, slavery.
Their largest museum, the National Museum of Bermuda, has a
breath of exhibits that includes the good, bad, and ugly
of the island's history. I grew up in Bermuda and
spent a lot of time at the museum versus a
visitor that has a research intern and finally using it
as a focus of my master's thesis. Part of my
(38:59):
research and pouring over online reviews looking at how visitors,
in most cases American cruise tourists, liked or disliked the museum.
A lot of people complained about the goat pooh. It's
true they have goats on the property to maintain the grass,
but they pooh everywhere, and when I was a kid,
my dad, who grew up on a farm, used to
throw it at me all the time. The big hill
(39:20):
to walk up, old horror. But many people also commended
the museum on their brave exhibit on slavery. The building
that it is housed in underwent something crazy like a
tenure renovation, and I vaguely remember when they opened it
and most of the exhibits inside, including the slave trade
and slavery in Bermuda, there was a press conference that
really addressed the topic. It started a discussion amongst the
(39:43):
public and people outside of the museum world. And I
even believe that the government issued an apology. Don't take
that as gospel, though my ten year old mind may
have just imagined imagined that. So basically, this is a
long winded way to say, cruise to Bermuda, go visit
their awesome museum and it's literally a stone's throw away
from the cruise port, and go check out their great
(40:04):
exhibit on slavery and a bunch of other really awesome
ones with iPads. If you don't want to cruise, slash
fly over there, you should take out their Facebook, slash
Instagram since their website is still crazy outdated to see
some of the awesome exhibits and their collections keep being awesome.
I love the podcast and listen to it at all
hours of the day. Britt. Thank you so much Britt
(40:25):
for writing that is super interesting. And I want to
specify I have not been to Bermuda or its museum,
and I would like to take Britt up on that invitation,
let's go, let's go right now? Maybe not. Maybe when
it's cold is when we should go. So thank you
Britt for writing to us about that. If you'd like
to write to us about this or any other podcast,
we're at history podcast that how Stuffworks dot com. We're
(40:47):
also on Facebook at Facebook dot com slash miss in
history and on Twitter at miss in History. Our tumbler
is at missed in history dot tumbler dot com and
are also unpinterested at dot com slash missed in History.
We have a new instagram also, we are at miss
in history on Instagram. If you would like to come
to our website, please please do. We are going to
have a picture of the desk that we spent so
(41:08):
much time talking about today in our show notes, which
we do for every episode. We're also going to have
a link to this exhibition at the Museum of Fine
Arts website, lots of other awesome information, and you can
come to our parent company's website, which is how stuff
Works dot com to learn all kinds of other interesting stuff.
So you can do all that and a whole lot
more at how stuff works dot com or miss in
(41:28):
history dot com for more on this, thousands of other topics.
Is it how stuff works? Dot com
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Holly Frey
Tracy Wilson
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