July 2, 2021 • 9 mins
Tracy and Holly discuss the difficulty of covering the Dreyfus Affair, including the contextual history that needs to be covered for it. They also talk about the familiarity of the events of the affair because of similar events happening today.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class A production
of I Heart Radio, Hello and Happy Friday. I'm Tracy B.
Wilson and I'm Holly Fry. Uh. If you're brand new
to the show, Friday's or when we talk about a
little bit of behind the scenes, whether it's the research
(00:23):
process for a particular episode, or how you and I
personally have connected with it, things like that. For the
drey Fist affair, this turned out to be way harder
than I was expecting it to be. Uh, it's frustrating,
lee hard information to like sit with. Yeah, and in
addition to them, you know, the fact that anti Semitism
(00:47):
is definitely not over. It is still a major problem.
There were also a lot of things that were part
of the context for it that I don't think we
have ever discussed on the show. Like we have covered
other sub objects that happened during the French Third Republic,
but we had never really given an overview of the
French Third Republic. So it was like I had to
(01:09):
get a lot more versed in the specifics of the
Third Republic. And then also the Boulange scandal and the
Panama Canal scandal. At it was like I felt like
I wound up needing to research three additional episodes in
addition to the Dreyfus affair to have the context make sense,
which turned out to be a lot. Um. We had
(01:29):
to postpone our recordings this week because of construction that
was happening in my backyard, and that was the only
thing that allowed me to finish it in time to record.
Sometimes things that seem like a setback are actually a
great help. Yeah, I just find myself every time we
were talking about, um, the acquittal or the the appeals
(01:52):
in particular, even though I had had read through all
of this before, Like, as we sat here saying the words,
I just found myself getting like red, rage angry when
it was like and he was once again found guilty
and I'm like what yeah, yeah, Um. That's also one
of the reasons that I wanted to take some more
time talking about the contextualizing of this because, um, like
(02:16):
I said at the very top of the very first episode, UM,
this comes up a lot as an example of anti
Semitism in France and uh, just the persecution of Jewish people,
and that is absolutely a huge part of this story.
But then there are also all these other elements that
(02:37):
still seem really relevant today. Two things that are going on,
like like newspapers picking out a couple of villains and
just focusing on demonizing them regardless of what they've actually
done or whether that accurately represents the whole situation. Uh,
we have you know, we've just been through a whole
(02:59):
pandemic mich that is still going on, where people's opinions
on whether this was a serious problem and is still
a serious problem are influenced by news coverage, some of
which is just not accurate and some of it is
intentionally not accurate. And it's like that kind of stuff
was also a huge part of the Dreyfus affair. So
(03:22):
I kept having these moments where I was like, this
just happened. This just I just watched a replay of
this happening in current life of this event from you know,
more than a hundred years ago. Yeah, I mean, my
hope would be that that that will remind people to
always be very very careful about what they believe in media,
(03:47):
regardless of what your position is, um to always just
be really critical of what you're taking in and what
its intent. Maybe, but I don't know it seems like
we never learned. We just keep doing the same stuff
over and over. So of my hopes maybe dashed, but
I will just throw a nod to There is a
Crash course, which is a series on YouTube. There is
(04:08):
a Crash course on media literacy UM and on like
how to evaluate sources and figure out if the information
that they're sharing is correct or you know, whether it's
effectively propaganda, which so much of what was written during
(04:29):
the drapast Fair really was. There are just piles and
piles and piles of caricatures and articles and all of that,
uh that you can you know, page through and see
just this enormous volume of of material that was generated
(04:51):
about this one thing, some of which very accurate, some
of which not accurate. There are lots of different books
on this um and one of the ones that I
read that I found really interesting is called Dreyfus A
Family Affair by Michael Burns, And that's not the newest
(05:13):
work on this um, but it looks at all of it,
like through the lens of the Dreyfuss and what they
were going through, what Lucy and Matthew were doing to
try to to try to exonerate Alfred, which I honestly
found to be a refreshing approach because so many books
(05:37):
about incidents like this are so focused on like the
timeline and the context, all of which is really important.
But I felt like taking a look at it through
the Dreyfuss and really being focused on them and what
how it was affecting them moment to moment made it
a lot more of a human story, uh, than feeling
(05:59):
like it was sort of um an event that happened
without really connecting to actual people who were involved. Yeah,
it's also fascinating to me to think about it in
that context, remembering the Dreyfus himself had no idea that
a lot of that was going on. Yeah, he had
no idea at all. His all of his mail was
(06:21):
being censored and he wasn't allowed to have newspapers, so um.
It was really after he got back to France then,
like there's a mob scene and he's like why, I
don't understand, Like in his mind it was his wife
and his brother were trying to get his name cleared
as this sort of like private just the two of them,
(06:45):
lonely effort um, really having no idea that there was
this you know, giant, enormously internationally publicized schism happening in France,
having no idea that people like Emil Zolau were on
his side writing his Jacques letter like he was totally
not aware of any of that while he was in prison.
I can only imagine how shocking that must be, especially
(07:07):
when the conditions he was being held in are designed
to make someone kind of mentally not in a good place,
and you know, intended to break someone. So of course
he probably felt so utterly helpless and alone at a
level that is hard to even consider if you don't
(07:27):
live through something like that. To then realize that, in fact,
a whole lot had been done in his name by
a whole lot of people, that has to be like
a weird gear change to deal with, both intellectually and emotionally, Like,
I don't I don't know how someone could handle something
like that. Yeah, that's one of the reasons why they
(07:48):
first when he got back and when he had been freed,
they went to a place they had previously vacationed and
they had fond memories there and then knew it was
going to be kind of a quiet and RESTful place. Uh.
Like that was one of the reasons to like just
sort of try to get back to any sense of
what was real and normal. Um, and then they wound
(08:08):
up having to go to Switzerland because there were they
kept attracting attention of both like anti Drapassard's and well meaning,
well wishing people who were coming to wish him well
when really he was like I just I would like
to be left alone for a while quiet. Yeah. So, uh,
(08:30):
this episode turned out to just be a lot more
complicated than I was expecting it to be said, but
I'm glad I managed to dive into it, managed to
get it done for us to record it, thanks thanks
to loud work being done outside my house. Thank you
loud work. Yeah. So, if you'd like to send us
(08:51):
a note, were at History Podcast at i heeart radio
dot com. If you have not subscribed to the show,
we're on basically every podcast player that there is. Whatever
is on your plate for the weekend, I hope it
is great. We'll be back tomorrow with a classic and
then Monday with a brand new episode. Stuff you Missed
(09:16):
in History Class is a production of I heart Radio.
For more podcasts from I heart Radio, visit the i
heart Radio app Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows.
Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class A production
of I Heart Radio, Hello and Happy Friday. I'm Tracy B.
Wilson and I'm Holly Fry. Uh. If you're brand new
to the show, Friday's or when we talk about a
little bit of behind the scenes, whether it's the research
(00:23):
process for a particular episode, or how you and I
personally have connected with it, things like that. For the
drey Fist affair, this turned out to be way harder
than I was expecting it to be. Uh, it's frustrating,
lee hard information to like sit with. Yeah, and in
addition to them, you know, the fact that anti Semitism
(00:47):
is definitely not over. It is still a major problem.
There were also a lot of things that were part
of the context for it that I don't think we
have ever discussed on the show. Like we have covered
other sub objects that happened during the French Third Republic,
but we had never really given an overview of the
French Third Republic. So it was like I had to
(01:09):
get a lot more versed in the specifics of the
Third Republic. And then also the Boulange scandal and the
Panama Canal scandal. At it was like I felt like
I wound up needing to research three additional episodes in
addition to the Dreyfus affair to have the context make sense,
which turned out to be a lot. Um. We had
(01:29):
to postpone our recordings this week because of construction that
was happening in my backyard, and that was the only
thing that allowed me to finish it in time to record.
Sometimes things that seem like a setback are actually a
great help. Yeah, I just find myself every time we
were talking about, um, the acquittal or the the appeals
(01:52):
in particular, even though I had had read through all
of this before, Like, as we sat here saying the words,
I just found myself getting like red, rage angry when
it was like and he was once again found guilty
and I'm like what yeah, yeah, Um. That's also one
of the reasons that I wanted to take some more
time talking about the contextualizing of this because, um, like
(02:16):
I said at the very top of the very first episode, UM,
this comes up a lot as an example of anti
Semitism in France and uh, just the persecution of Jewish people,
and that is absolutely a huge part of this story.
But then there are also all these other elements that
(02:37):
still seem really relevant today. Two things that are going on,
like like newspapers picking out a couple of villains and
just focusing on demonizing them regardless of what they've actually
done or whether that accurately represents the whole situation. Uh,
we have you know, we've just been through a whole
(02:59):
pandemic mich that is still going on, where people's opinions
on whether this was a serious problem and is still
a serious problem are influenced by news coverage, some of
which is just not accurate and some of it is
intentionally not accurate. And it's like that kind of stuff
was also a huge part of the Dreyfus affair. So
(03:22):
I kept having these moments where I was like, this
just happened. This just I just watched a replay of
this happening in current life of this event from you know,
more than a hundred years ago. Yeah, I mean, my
hope would be that that that will remind people to
always be very very careful about what they believe in media,
(03:47):
regardless of what your position is, um to always just
be really critical of what you're taking in and what
its intent. Maybe, but I don't know it seems like
we never learned. We just keep doing the same stuff
over and over. So of my hopes maybe dashed, but
I will just throw a nod to There is a
Crash course, which is a series on YouTube. There is
(04:08):
a Crash course on media literacy UM and on like
how to evaluate sources and figure out if the information
that they're sharing is correct or you know, whether it's
effectively propaganda, which so much of what was written during
(04:29):
the drapast Fair really was. There are just piles and
piles and piles of caricatures and articles and all of that,
uh that you can you know, page through and see
just this enormous volume of of material that was generated
(04:51):
about this one thing, some of which very accurate, some
of which not accurate. There are lots of different books
on this um and one of the ones that I
read that I found really interesting is called Dreyfus A
Family Affair by Michael Burns, And that's not the newest
(05:13):
work on this um, but it looks at all of it,
like through the lens of the Dreyfuss and what they
were going through, what Lucy and Matthew were doing to
try to to try to exonerate Alfred, which I honestly
found to be a refreshing approach because so many books
(05:37):
about incidents like this are so focused on like the
timeline and the context, all of which is really important.
But I felt like taking a look at it through
the Dreyfuss and really being focused on them and what
how it was affecting them moment to moment made it
a lot more of a human story, uh, than feeling
(05:59):
like it was sort of um an event that happened
without really connecting to actual people who were involved. Yeah,
it's also fascinating to me to think about it in
that context, remembering the Dreyfus himself had no idea that
a lot of that was going on. Yeah, he had
no idea at all. His all of his mail was
(06:21):
being censored and he wasn't allowed to have newspapers, so um.
It was really after he got back to France then,
like there's a mob scene and he's like why, I
don't understand, Like in his mind it was his wife
and his brother were trying to get his name cleared
as this sort of like private just the two of them,
(06:45):
lonely effort um, really having no idea that there was
this you know, giant, enormously internationally publicized schism happening in France,
having no idea that people like Emil Zolau were on
his side writing his Jacques letter like he was totally
not aware of any of that while he was in prison.
I can only imagine how shocking that must be, especially
(07:07):
when the conditions he was being held in are designed
to make someone kind of mentally not in a good place,
and you know, intended to break someone. So of course
he probably felt so utterly helpless and alone at a
level that is hard to even consider if you don't
(07:27):
live through something like that. To then realize that, in fact,
a whole lot had been done in his name by
a whole lot of people, that has to be like
a weird gear change to deal with, both intellectually and emotionally, Like,
I don't I don't know how someone could handle something
like that. Yeah, that's one of the reasons why they
(07:48):
first when he got back and when he had been freed,
they went to a place they had previously vacationed and
they had fond memories there and then knew it was
going to be kind of a quiet and RESTful place. Uh.
Like that was one of the reasons to like just
sort of try to get back to any sense of
what was real and normal. Um, and then they wound
(08:08):
up having to go to Switzerland because there were they
kept attracting attention of both like anti Drapassard's and well meaning,
well wishing people who were coming to wish him well
when really he was like I just I would like
to be left alone for a while quiet. Yeah. So, uh,
(08:30):
this episode turned out to just be a lot more
complicated than I was expecting it to be said, but
I'm glad I managed to dive into it, managed to
get it done for us to record it, thanks thanks
to loud work being done outside my house. Thank you
loud work. Yeah. So, if you'd like to send us
(08:51):
a note, were at History Podcast at i heeart radio
dot com. If you have not subscribed to the show,
we're on basically every podcast player that there is. Whatever
is on your plate for the weekend, I hope it
is great. We'll be back tomorrow with a classic and
then Monday with a brand new episode. Stuff you Missed
(09:16):
in History Class is a production of I heart Radio.
For more podcasts from I heart Radio, visit the i
heart Radio app Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows.
Stuff You Missed in History Class News
Hosts And Creators
Holly Frey
Tracy Wilson
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