May 22, 2020 • 11 mins
Holly and Tracy ponder the psychology of a lifetime of deception, and discuss the complex nature of the Boers' position in their conflict with Great Britain.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production
of I Heart Radio. Hello, and welcome to Casual Friday.
I'm Holly Fry. I'm Tracy Vie Wilson, Tracy. This whole
week was Wacky Spy Week. It was Fritz Ducaine. Uh. Yeah,
(00:23):
who is somebody that I wanted to talk about for
several years and just kind of kept back burnering it. Uh,
partially because his life has a lot to pick through. Uh.
He was very busy, ma'am, and I wanted to make
sure that I had time to really like read up
on as many of the shifts in his life as
I could. And you were actually out last week, so
(00:44):
I gave me a little extra time when we weren't
recording where I could do some of that. So that
is why we ended up with a two parter in
Fritz Ducaine. I mentioned at the end of our second
episode about him that I am psychologically fascinated by him
because I always wonder in the case of someone who,
even before they are doing it for any sort of
(01:07):
um wartime spy or sabotage reason, starts kind of telling
yarns about who they actually are, Like, what is their
sense of self? How do they self identify when they
are lying alone at night in the dark, like I
I will never know, but I always wonder that, which
is why I think people like him are so appealing.
(01:28):
There is another part of his story that I did
not go into in the show because eventually you had
to start cutting things for time or you end up
down long explanatory rabbit holes. Um. He had a woman
in his life from very early on. Uh, this woman
named Lilian Lending, and it seems they were probably at
(01:51):
some point linked romantically, but they also were best friends.
And so a lot of what we do know about
him kind of comes from his letters to Lilian, which isascinating. Uh.
He has one of those lives that, of course, as
you're reading it, you're like, this would be a great movie,
and I know who should play him, and this would
be amazing. But I actually think what would be really
fascinating as a take on that would be his letters
(02:12):
back and forth with Lilian, because they are a little
more intimate. There are some towards the end of his
life where he is feeling his age, but he's also
talking about like there's one letter that I read where
he talks about getting lost when he is in New York, um,
even though he has no New York his whole life.
But he gets a street in Brooklyn and a street
(02:34):
and I think queens with the same name confused, and
he ends up on the wrong train and at and
he tells her about this whole ordeal of how it
took him everywhere all over the city. This is when
he was living in the nursing home and then he
had to remember exactly where the nursing home was. But
at the end there is this very sort of sweet
part of it where he talks about how proud he
(02:54):
is that he can still get around and figure it
out even if it's a big mess, and that like
he fought through it even though it was one of
the most miserable days of his life. Uh. And to me,
that stuff is where all of the interesting lives. We
didn't talk about this in the episode at all, um,
but he and especially the earlier like big Game hunting,
(03:19):
living in in South Africa, like the sort of hyper
masculine persona. Um, Like, that's just a whole thread it is.
I mean, that's it's one of those things like when
you get into even the Roosevelt stuff. I mean that's
(03:39):
what he's selling, right, is like I'm the actual man.
You are trying to go live the life of um,
which is a as you said, that's all the whole thing. Um. Yeah,
it is really really fascinating. There are Uh it's easy
to find a lot of sympathetic sounding articles when you
(04:04):
talk about the occupation of transpal in particular by the
British on the side of the Boers, because they are
just defending their way of life. Um, that life involves slavery. Yeah, uh,
slave trade. Like it's very funny. I mean you will
(04:26):
even find pretty modern writeups where they're like, you know,
the Boers were really gentle people, they were very Christian,
and I'm like, but but plus really into slavery. I don't,
And then that that whole thing was also like just
part of of European colonialism in South Africa, which like
(04:47):
is a zone layer of stuff that gets kind of
glossed over I think, uh not, I mean definitely not
all the time, but in the accounts that are sort
of like, oh, these they were simple farmers and they
were just trying to make They're living, like well, colonialism
and slavery, and like there's a lot yeah, going on there. Um,
they were defending their life from Britain, and really Britain
(05:12):
was just doing a larger scale version of what they
had done to the populations that already lived in those places, right. Uh. Yeah,
it's very problematic in that regard. It's interesting this idea
that um Duquesne hated Britain so much he would do
anything to hurt them, Yeah, and including siding with Nazis. Yeah,
(05:39):
it's a really weird thing. There is in that one
of those um biographies I read that I mentioned because
there are two primary ones. One is that one, which
was written in the nineties. The other is a biography
that came out when Ducaine was still alive before the
Nazi involvement, so there's no real mention of it, but
(05:59):
there is sort of like a uh, he didn't really
seem to buy into the whole like pure blooded airy
and race thing or any of that. He just wanted
to hurt Britain and it's like, yeah, but at what
costs to like his humanity and morality, But that didn't
ever seem to be a factor in any of the
(06:20):
discussion or any of his decisions. Um. I mean, it
comes up when his girlfriend calls a reporter and goes,
I am Jewish and did not know he was collaborating
with pro Nazi groups. This is a problem. Um, clearly
he didn't see the conflict there, right, Right, I think
he's kind of a mess. I mean that's a big,
(06:42):
big understatement on my part. But like there as like
I I enjoy reading about just the over the top
grandiosity of his own invented backstory and his many many
escapes like those are fun. But I'm also like, man,
I I don't like you being well. I think that
(07:03):
is I think we've stumbled upon what the real problem is. Right,
There's no morality driving it other than this one thing,
which is that he hates Britain and clearly horrible things
happened to his family at the hands of British soldiers. Right.
I don't want to negate that at all, but that
completely like obliterated any other nuance of thought for him
(07:25):
for the rest of his life, which is not really
a particularly moral way to live. Like vengeance isn't really
a moral code, uh, and it it Uh Yeah, it's
a weird thing because that's the other flip, right, is
that everybody seemed to fall in love with him and
(07:45):
just find him incredibly appealing. Right, I feel it kind
of like we're lucky that his only plan was this
vengeance thing, because he seems like the kind of person
who in that time, I don't think it would work today.
He had wanted to take on greater power, he probably
could have, and then heaven only knows what would happen. Um.
(08:09):
I certainly wonder and I'm sure many other people do
if there were always explosives in that giant iron case. Yeah,
like if he left New York potentially knowing he might
need explosives, or if there actually was film and then
he switched that out for explosives, claimed that he had
(08:30):
lost the film because the film still would have cost
him something. So even if he had to jettis in
it to make room for a bomb, I can see
why he wanted to go after the insurance money. It's
a weird combination, though, right, of these sort of very
grandiose plans, really going after a world power and also
(08:51):
always hustling to make a buck, And that to me
is the fascinating juxtaposition as well. For him, right, this
is part of the puzzle of what makes him like
a creature, where you're just like, what even are you?
How do you live your life? How does any of
this function or work? It's okay, So if anybody wants
to write that screenplay, um, I'm happy to help because
(09:12):
I'm completely and thralled problematic though he is, I just
find myself making the big eyes of like I really
wish I could travel back in time and talk to
him for like a minute, like, dude, what was your deal? Fritz?
Are you okay? I know you're not, but um, yeah,
(09:33):
I also am really, I mean, here's the thing. On
some level, you have to admire that level of bravado.
Right that he can convince medical doctors that he has
actual things wrong with him is an achievement. But again, also, hey,
you killed people with your horrible behavior. Yeah yeah, and
(09:57):
sided with Nazis. That's where I keep getting. Oh, I'm
even before that. I'm like the dudes on the tennis
in and even like the these stories of him like
killing people as a kid right right in m this
you know, conflict that is born inherently of racism. It
(10:19):
is a weird thing to try to like unspool all
of that and figure out how that person ended up
in some of the other pockets of his life, like
how does that strange very sort of brutal beginning, also
end up the guy who is like the toast of
New York society for his writing and his like turn
(10:42):
of phrase. And then also later you know, making films
for a school board in South America. Like there, that's
a life. That's a resume for sure. Um, I think
where Fritz to caaned out? Probably probably, so Yeah, I'll
keep thinking about him because he's fascinating. If you would
(11:02):
like to write to us, you can do so at
History Podcast at iHeart radio dot com. You can also
find us everywhere on social media as Missed in History.
If you would like to subscribe to the podcast, you
can do that on the I heart Radio app, at
Apple podcast or wherever it is that you listen. Stuff
you Missed in History Class is a production of I
(11:23):
heart Radio. For more podcasts from I heart Radio, visit
the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
to your favorite shows
Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production
of I Heart Radio. Hello, and welcome to Casual Friday.
I'm Holly Fry. I'm Tracy Vie Wilson, Tracy. This whole
week was Wacky Spy Week. It was Fritz Ducaine. Uh. Yeah,
(00:23):
who is somebody that I wanted to talk about for
several years and just kind of kept back burnering it. Uh,
partially because his life has a lot to pick through. Uh.
He was very busy, ma'am, and I wanted to make
sure that I had time to really like read up
on as many of the shifts in his life as
I could. And you were actually out last week, so
(00:44):
I gave me a little extra time when we weren't
recording where I could do some of that. So that
is why we ended up with a two parter in
Fritz Ducaine. I mentioned at the end of our second
episode about him that I am psychologically fascinated by him
because I always wonder in the case of someone who,
even before they are doing it for any sort of
(01:07):
um wartime spy or sabotage reason, starts kind of telling
yarns about who they actually are, Like, what is their
sense of self? How do they self identify when they
are lying alone at night in the dark, like I
I will never know, but I always wonder that, which
is why I think people like him are so appealing.
(01:28):
There is another part of his story that I did
not go into in the show because eventually you had
to start cutting things for time or you end up
down long explanatory rabbit holes. Um. He had a woman
in his life from very early on. Uh, this woman
named Lilian Lending, and it seems they were probably at
(01:51):
some point linked romantically, but they also were best friends.
And so a lot of what we do know about
him kind of comes from his letters to Lilian, which isascinating. Uh.
He has one of those lives that, of course, as
you're reading it, you're like, this would be a great movie,
and I know who should play him, and this would
be amazing. But I actually think what would be really
fascinating as a take on that would be his letters
(02:12):
back and forth with Lilian, because they are a little
more intimate. There are some towards the end of his
life where he is feeling his age, but he's also
talking about like there's one letter that I read where
he talks about getting lost when he is in New York, um,
even though he has no New York his whole life.
But he gets a street in Brooklyn and a street
(02:34):
and I think queens with the same name confused, and
he ends up on the wrong train and at and
he tells her about this whole ordeal of how it
took him everywhere all over the city. This is when
he was living in the nursing home and then he
had to remember exactly where the nursing home was. But
at the end there is this very sort of sweet
part of it where he talks about how proud he
(02:54):
is that he can still get around and figure it
out even if it's a big mess, and that like
he fought through it even though it was one of
the most miserable days of his life. Uh. And to me,
that stuff is where all of the interesting lives. We
didn't talk about this in the episode at all, um,
but he and especially the earlier like big Game hunting,
(03:19):
living in in South Africa, like the sort of hyper
masculine persona. Um, Like, that's just a whole thread it is.
I mean, that's it's one of those things like when
you get into even the Roosevelt stuff. I mean that's
(03:39):
what he's selling, right, is like I'm the actual man.
You are trying to go live the life of um,
which is a as you said, that's all the whole thing. Um. Yeah,
it is really really fascinating. There are Uh it's easy
to find a lot of sympathetic sounding articles when you
(04:04):
talk about the occupation of transpal in particular by the
British on the side of the Boers, because they are
just defending their way of life. Um, that life involves slavery. Yeah, uh,
slave trade. Like it's very funny. I mean you will
(04:26):
even find pretty modern writeups where they're like, you know,
the Boers were really gentle people, they were very Christian,
and I'm like, but but plus really into slavery. I don't,
And then that that whole thing was also like just
part of of European colonialism in South Africa, which like
(04:47):
is a zone layer of stuff that gets kind of
glossed over I think, uh not, I mean definitely not
all the time, but in the accounts that are sort
of like, oh, these they were simple farmers and they
were just trying to make They're living, like well, colonialism
and slavery, and like there's a lot yeah, going on there. Um,
they were defending their life from Britain, and really Britain
(05:12):
was just doing a larger scale version of what they
had done to the populations that already lived in those places, right. Uh. Yeah,
it's very problematic in that regard. It's interesting this idea
that um Duquesne hated Britain so much he would do
anything to hurt them, Yeah, and including siding with Nazis. Yeah,
(05:39):
it's a really weird thing. There is in that one
of those um biographies I read that I mentioned because
there are two primary ones. One is that one, which
was written in the nineties. The other is a biography
that came out when Ducaine was still alive before the
Nazi involvement, so there's no real mention of it, but
(05:59):
there is sort of like a uh, he didn't really
seem to buy into the whole like pure blooded airy
and race thing or any of that. He just wanted
to hurt Britain and it's like, yeah, but at what
costs to like his humanity and morality, But that didn't
ever seem to be a factor in any of the
(06:20):
discussion or any of his decisions. Um. I mean, it
comes up when his girlfriend calls a reporter and goes,
I am Jewish and did not know he was collaborating
with pro Nazi groups. This is a problem. Um, clearly
he didn't see the conflict there, right, Right, I think
he's kind of a mess. I mean that's a big,
(06:42):
big understatement on my part. But like there as like
I I enjoy reading about just the over the top
grandiosity of his own invented backstory and his many many
escapes like those are fun. But I'm also like, man,
I I don't like you being well. I think that
(07:03):
is I think we've stumbled upon what the real problem is. Right,
There's no morality driving it other than this one thing,
which is that he hates Britain and clearly horrible things
happened to his family at the hands of British soldiers. Right.
I don't want to negate that at all, but that
completely like obliterated any other nuance of thought for him
(07:25):
for the rest of his life, which is not really
a particularly moral way to live. Like vengeance isn't really
a moral code, uh, and it it Uh Yeah, it's
a weird thing because that's the other flip, right, is
that everybody seemed to fall in love with him and
(07:45):
just find him incredibly appealing. Right, I feel it kind
of like we're lucky that his only plan was this
vengeance thing, because he seems like the kind of person
who in that time, I don't think it would work today.
He had wanted to take on greater power, he probably
could have, and then heaven only knows what would happen. Um.
(08:09):
I certainly wonder and I'm sure many other people do
if there were always explosives in that giant iron case. Yeah,
like if he left New York potentially knowing he might
need explosives, or if there actually was film and then
he switched that out for explosives, claimed that he had
(08:30):
lost the film because the film still would have cost
him something. So even if he had to jettis in
it to make room for a bomb, I can see
why he wanted to go after the insurance money. It's
a weird combination, though, right, of these sort of very
grandiose plans, really going after a world power and also
(08:51):
always hustling to make a buck, And that to me
is the fascinating juxtaposition as well. For him, right, this
is part of the puzzle of what makes him like
a creature, where you're just like, what even are you?
How do you live your life? How does any of
this function or work? It's okay, So if anybody wants
to write that screenplay, um, I'm happy to help because
(09:12):
I'm completely and thralled problematic though he is, I just
find myself making the big eyes of like I really
wish I could travel back in time and talk to
him for like a minute, like, dude, what was your deal? Fritz?
Are you okay? I know you're not, but um, yeah,
(09:33):
I also am really, I mean, here's the thing. On
some level, you have to admire that level of bravado.
Right that he can convince medical doctors that he has
actual things wrong with him is an achievement. But again, also, hey,
you killed people with your horrible behavior. Yeah yeah, and
(09:57):
sided with Nazis. That's where I keep getting. Oh, I'm
even before that. I'm like the dudes on the tennis
in and even like the these stories of him like
killing people as a kid right right in m this
you know, conflict that is born inherently of racism. It
(10:19):
is a weird thing to try to like unspool all
of that and figure out how that person ended up
in some of the other pockets of his life, like
how does that strange very sort of brutal beginning, also
end up the guy who is like the toast of
New York society for his writing and his like turn
(10:42):
of phrase. And then also later you know, making films
for a school board in South America. Like there, that's
a life. That's a resume for sure. Um, I think
where Fritz to caaned out? Probably probably, so Yeah, I'll
keep thinking about him because he's fascinating. If you would
(11:02):
like to write to us, you can do so at
History Podcast at iHeart radio dot com. You can also
find us everywhere on social media as Missed in History.
If you would like to subscribe to the podcast, you
can do that on the I heart Radio app, at
Apple podcast or wherever it is that you listen. Stuff
you Missed in History Class is a production of I
(11:23):
heart Radio. For more podcasts from I heart Radio, visit
the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
to your favorite shows
Stuff You Missed in History Class News
Hosts And Creators
Holly Frey
Tracy Wilson
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