February 5, 2021 • 10 mins
Holly and Tracy talk about how many things don't make it into episodes, sometimes due to cutting for narrative structure, and sometimes due to translation of sources. They also discuss Emilie Du Châtelet and the various ways her story is told.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Stuff you Missed in History Class, A production
of I Heart Radio, Hello and Happy Friday, everybody. I'm
Holly Fry and I'm Tracy B. Wilson. One of the
things we talked about this week was Julio Teo. Yep, uh,
(00:21):
can I just tell you, I feel like this episode
ran a little bit long, and even so, I feel
like I left out so much stuff. Yeah. Yeah, he
had a lot more conflicts that we didn't go into
and arguments. There's a big argument that he had with
Larco that ended up with them both having to give
testimony about it because they've gotten a fight over a
(00:41):
piece of property that Larco had owned and Teo thought
the museum had taken possession of and there were some
things stored in it, and it was a big, essentially
like a public brawl. Once again, he kept getting in
these very public fights, which makes me nervous just thinking
about it. But but he was really passionate. One thing
that I found a little dismaying. Again we're dealing with
(01:06):
like English language only sources because I'm not fluent in Spanish, um,
and there is not a whole lot of mention of
his family life. We know he got married, and we
know that, uh, he and his wife had children together
that did not all survive to adulthood. I don't think.
But even in the things I read, the numbers shift around.
(01:28):
Like I read several that said they had four children
one died and another that said they had six, and
I'm like, that's new. Um, But we don't really know.
And I feel like most of his personal life is
kind of blurred in a little bit obscured because his
work was so important both to him and to his
(01:49):
country and to archaeology in general. Um. I also had
a very I don't know if it was quaint, but
there was a moment where I was looking through US
newspaper articles about him, and one of them had anglicized
his name to Julius, and they still spelled his last
(02:11):
name the way he spelled it, Teo. But I just
imagined every American reader calling him Julius Tello when he
was in the United States, because I'm sure it happened
a million times. But it's one of those tricky problems.
But the thing I love the most about him is
his approach to solving problems, like, oh, my job is
(02:34):
at the whim of political moves, I will become a
politician so I can make legislation. Oh, I can't do
this expedition unless I am associated with the science with
the College of Letters. Well, I'll just throw together a
thesis really quickly and present it. That's not a problem.
I love that. I loved it. I felt conflicted about
(02:56):
some of his story, Like I felt conflicted about the
Big Club public fights. There was a lot of But
also anytime I'm in a museum at this point, which
doesn't happen because there's a pandemic, right if I were
to be in a museum at this point, Like any
time I'm looking at an artifact that is not from
the place that the museum is, I'm always like, where
(03:19):
did you get this? And how? And like the people
who were criticizing him being like, we're afraid you're sending
our artifacts away, Like he was like, yeah, so it's Uh,
it's one of those things where it's like a slightly
different nuance than say a US archaeological team showing up
(03:47):
somewhere and doing a dig and taking a bunch of
artifacts away, but still one that just like troubles me
a bit. Yeah, I mean, it's one of those things
I think about. It came up when we did the
episode that you had researched on the Elgin Marbles, where
it's like, this really stinks they got taken away, but
they also may not have survived if they hadn't been
taken away. I think in his mind that was part
(04:09):
of it. Peru was so constantly like I mean, it
comes up in this episode, the museum would shut down
and no one would be taking care of things, and
sometimes for years at a time, and then it would reopen,
but it was at the whim of the government. And
I think in his eyes he was like, sure, places
like Harvard have plans and like they they are stable
(04:30):
and they will take care of these things. Um. And
he also did see it as kind of an ambassadorial effort, right,
people will learn about Peru from me a Peruvian, even
though he's not always there to interpret those artifacts. Um
and like said, as evidence by the fact that I'm
sure people were calling him Julius Tello, Uh, there was
(04:50):
gonna be some some lost information in that. So it
is it's very tricky. I mean he was also doing
some of that fund more excavation work, right, right, So
it very much becomes about like what moral and ethical
concessions are you willing to make for what you perceived
(05:12):
to be the greater good, even if that's not what
everyone else agrees is the greater good. This is why
humans are so complicated. Yeah, for sure. So we talked
finally about Emily de Chatela this week. Yeah. I you
mentioned that you had been working on it for a
long time. We had talked about her at multiple points
(05:35):
over I feel like more than a year. Uh. Sometimes
when we are talking about doing a custom episode as
part of a sponsorship, which this was not one of,
there will be a theme that we're brainstorming around. And
I remember her coming up as a theme around people
(05:56):
who were described as people's muses because she was described
as full taires mus But of course having her story
stand on its own instead of being like Voltaire's News,
I like that better me too, uh, And I it's
it's a little bit tricky. Vas so much that's written
about her is in context of her relationship with him,
(06:17):
because it is important, and they did, like I said
in the episode, I feel like they drove each other
to new levels of development of each of their individual works.
But it also kind of contributes to that problem that
she wasn't anything before him, and then she became a thing,
and it's like, no, she was already doing some really
interesting stuff. Right. One of the things that I didn't
(06:38):
mention in the episode, and I'll give people a quick
heads up, it's a little adult. Her writing on women's
sexual liberation is like two hundred years ahead of its time,
because she's very like, uh, it should be fine for
women to enjoy sex. It should be absolutely great for
people to have body positivity and sex positivity. And if
(07:00):
you are with someone and you're not getting that, you
should move on. It's not worth stay. Like she's very
completely like this is I don't I don't know why
you would ever stay in a relationship that wasn't enjoyable
to you, which is pretty interesting because we don't yeah
again in the seventeen thirties. Yeah. One of the things
(07:20):
that I really like about her is how it really
does seem like when her romantic relationships ended, like they
continued to be fond of each other and and in
in one and other's lives, because like I know for
my own personal history, if I break up with somebody,
it's because I did not like who they were as
a person anymore or else they did not like who
(07:41):
I was as a Breaston anymore, and like there has
not been a continued affectionate relationship in the vast majority
of cases. And for her to have been like, yeah,
Voltaire and I are not really together anymore. We still
live together, we still do all this academic works, that
problem right well, And even Voltaire is said, you know
those long twenty age letters back and forth with Richelieu.
(08:02):
He is said to have been a little suspicious initially
about them, uh, and then saw one and was like, oh, no,
you're literally just talking about physics. Okay, I'm not That's fine.
Um uh. Not that he should have had to have
read it, but um yeah, he realized how completely that was.
She was not carrying on any sort of additional romantic
(08:24):
relationship while she was with him, which I really loved
that she would just write for twenty pages about philosophy
and physics with her ex pretty great. Um I um.
It's there's an interesting aspect of researching her, and one
of the reasons it took me so long. There are
(08:45):
a couple of quite good books about her. Um. One
is that David Banana's book that we mentioned it's called
Passionate Minds, and it's actually about her and Voltaire. And
then there is another one by Judith Zenzer which came
out ust after that one, that is just about Emily,
and it's interesting how the two of them perceived certain
(09:06):
aspects of her life differently. David Bodanis in many ways
sees her. To my mind, this isn't a criticism of
his work in an almost romanticized view, like there tend
to be more polarizing approaches to her father loved her,
her mother was mean to her. She was amazing, and
(09:28):
not everyone saw it, whereas Zenser recognizes that she's clearly
a genius, but is a little less definitive in some
of those where it's like, no, her mom might not
have been that mad about it. She just knew like
this was not going to lead to a path that
she could sustain as an adult um and so it's
it's just an interesting comparison, you know. That's always the
(09:51):
to me, one of the most interesting and trickiest parts
of interpreting history is that there is interpretation in the
mix right, the way two people can re one historical document,
like one letter that someone wrote another person and come
away with very different views on what it was actually communicating.
Is to be part of the marvelous, sometimes frustrating, but
(10:12):
often really illuminating puzzle of history and its research. Yeah,
thank you so much for joining us this week. We
hope you have a beautiful Friday and a beautiful weekend,
whatever form that takes for you, and we will see
you right back here next week. Stuff you Missed in
(10:33):
History Class is a production of I heart Radio. For
more podcasts from I heart Radio, visit the i heart
Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows.
Welcome to Stuff you Missed in History Class, A production
of I Heart Radio, Hello and Happy Friday, everybody. I'm
Holly Fry and I'm Tracy B. Wilson. One of the
things we talked about this week was Julio Teo. Yep, uh,
(00:21):
can I just tell you, I feel like this episode
ran a little bit long, and even so, I feel
like I left out so much stuff. Yeah. Yeah, he
had a lot more conflicts that we didn't go into
and arguments. There's a big argument that he had with
Larco that ended up with them both having to give
testimony about it because they've gotten a fight over a
(00:41):
piece of property that Larco had owned and Teo thought
the museum had taken possession of and there were some
things stored in it, and it was a big, essentially
like a public brawl. Once again, he kept getting in
these very public fights, which makes me nervous just thinking
about it. But but he was really passionate. One thing
that I found a little dismaying. Again we're dealing with
(01:06):
like English language only sources because I'm not fluent in Spanish, um,
and there is not a whole lot of mention of
his family life. We know he got married, and we
know that, uh, he and his wife had children together
that did not all survive to adulthood. I don't think.
But even in the things I read, the numbers shift around.
(01:28):
Like I read several that said they had four children
one died and another that said they had six, and
I'm like, that's new. Um, But we don't really know.
And I feel like most of his personal life is
kind of blurred in a little bit obscured because his
work was so important both to him and to his
(01:49):
country and to archaeology in general. Um. I also had
a very I don't know if it was quaint, but
there was a moment where I was looking through US
newspaper articles about him, and one of them had anglicized
his name to Julius, and they still spelled his last
(02:11):
name the way he spelled it, Teo. But I just
imagined every American reader calling him Julius Tello when he
was in the United States, because I'm sure it happened
a million times. But it's one of those tricky problems.
But the thing I love the most about him is
his approach to solving problems, like, oh, my job is
(02:34):
at the whim of political moves, I will become a
politician so I can make legislation. Oh, I can't do
this expedition unless I am associated with the science with
the College of Letters. Well, I'll just throw together a
thesis really quickly and present it. That's not a problem.
I love that. I loved it. I felt conflicted about
(02:56):
some of his story, Like I felt conflicted about the
Big Club public fights. There was a lot of But
also anytime I'm in a museum at this point, which
doesn't happen because there's a pandemic, right if I were
to be in a museum at this point, Like any
time I'm looking at an artifact that is not from
the place that the museum is, I'm always like, where
(03:19):
did you get this? And how? And like the people
who were criticizing him being like, we're afraid you're sending
our artifacts away, Like he was like, yeah, so it's Uh,
it's one of those things where it's like a slightly
different nuance than say a US archaeological team showing up
(03:47):
somewhere and doing a dig and taking a bunch of
artifacts away, but still one that just like troubles me
a bit. Yeah, I mean, it's one of those things
I think about. It came up when we did the
episode that you had researched on the Elgin Marbles, where
it's like, this really stinks they got taken away, but
they also may not have survived if they hadn't been
taken away. I think in his mind that was part
(04:09):
of it. Peru was so constantly like I mean, it
comes up in this episode, the museum would shut down
and no one would be taking care of things, and
sometimes for years at a time, and then it would reopen,
but it was at the whim of the government. And
I think in his eyes he was like, sure, places
like Harvard have plans and like they they are stable
(04:30):
and they will take care of these things. Um. And
he also did see it as kind of an ambassadorial effort, right,
people will learn about Peru from me a Peruvian, even
though he's not always there to interpret those artifacts. Um
and like said, as evidence by the fact that I'm
sure people were calling him Julius Tello, Uh, there was
(04:50):
gonna be some some lost information in that. So it
is it's very tricky. I mean he was also doing
some of that fund more excavation work, right, right, So
it very much becomes about like what moral and ethical
concessions are you willing to make for what you perceived
(05:12):
to be the greater good, even if that's not what
everyone else agrees is the greater good. This is why
humans are so complicated. Yeah, for sure. So we talked
finally about Emily de Chatela this week. Yeah. I you
mentioned that you had been working on it for a
long time. We had talked about her at multiple points
(05:35):
over I feel like more than a year. Uh. Sometimes
when we are talking about doing a custom episode as
part of a sponsorship, which this was not one of,
there will be a theme that we're brainstorming around. And
I remember her coming up as a theme around people
(05:56):
who were described as people's muses because she was described
as full taires mus But of course having her story
stand on its own instead of being like Voltaire's News,
I like that better me too, uh, And I it's
it's a little bit tricky. Vas so much that's written
about her is in context of her relationship with him,
(06:17):
because it is important, and they did, like I said
in the episode, I feel like they drove each other
to new levels of development of each of their individual works.
But it also kind of contributes to that problem that
she wasn't anything before him, and then she became a thing,
and it's like, no, she was already doing some really
interesting stuff. Right. One of the things that I didn't
(06:38):
mention in the episode, and I'll give people a quick
heads up, it's a little adult. Her writing on women's
sexual liberation is like two hundred years ahead of its time,
because she's very like, uh, it should be fine for
women to enjoy sex. It should be absolutely great for
people to have body positivity and sex positivity. And if
(07:00):
you are with someone and you're not getting that, you
should move on. It's not worth stay. Like she's very
completely like this is I don't I don't know why
you would ever stay in a relationship that wasn't enjoyable
to you, which is pretty interesting because we don't yeah
again in the seventeen thirties. Yeah. One of the things
(07:20):
that I really like about her is how it really
does seem like when her romantic relationships ended, like they
continued to be fond of each other and and in
in one and other's lives, because like I know for
my own personal history, if I break up with somebody,
it's because I did not like who they were as
a person anymore or else they did not like who
(07:41):
I was as a Breaston anymore, and like there has
not been a continued affectionate relationship in the vast majority
of cases. And for her to have been like, yeah,
Voltaire and I are not really together anymore. We still
live together, we still do all this academic works, that
problem right well, And even Voltaire is said, you know
those long twenty age letters back and forth with Richelieu.
(08:02):
He is said to have been a little suspicious initially
about them, uh, and then saw one and was like, oh, no,
you're literally just talking about physics. Okay, I'm not That's fine.
Um uh. Not that he should have had to have
read it, but um yeah, he realized how completely that was.
She was not carrying on any sort of additional romantic
(08:24):
relationship while she was with him, which I really loved
that she would just write for twenty pages about philosophy
and physics with her ex pretty great. Um I um.
It's there's an interesting aspect of researching her, and one
of the reasons it took me so long. There are
(08:45):
a couple of quite good books about her. Um. One
is that David Banana's book that we mentioned it's called
Passionate Minds, and it's actually about her and Voltaire. And
then there is another one by Judith Zenzer which came
out ust after that one, that is just about Emily,
and it's interesting how the two of them perceived certain
(09:06):
aspects of her life differently. David Bodanis in many ways
sees her. To my mind, this isn't a criticism of
his work in an almost romanticized view, like there tend
to be more polarizing approaches to her father loved her,
her mother was mean to her. She was amazing, and
(09:28):
not everyone saw it, whereas Zenser recognizes that she's clearly
a genius, but is a little less definitive in some
of those where it's like, no, her mom might not
have been that mad about it. She just knew like
this was not going to lead to a path that
she could sustain as an adult um and so it's
it's just an interesting comparison, you know. That's always the
(09:51):
to me, one of the most interesting and trickiest parts
of interpreting history is that there is interpretation in the
mix right, the way two people can re one historical document,
like one letter that someone wrote another person and come
away with very different views on what it was actually communicating.
Is to be part of the marvelous, sometimes frustrating, but
(10:12):
often really illuminating puzzle of history and its research. Yeah,
thank you so much for joining us this week. We
hope you have a beautiful Friday and a beautiful weekend,
whatever form that takes for you, and we will see
you right back here next week. Stuff you Missed in
(10:33):
History Class is a production of I heart Radio. For
more podcasts from I heart Radio, visit the i heart
Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows.
Stuff You Missed in History Class News
Hosts And Creators
Holly Frey
Tracy Wilson
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