October 1, 2021 • 9 mins
Holly and Tracy discuss the career of Tod Browning and how difficult it is to know the true nature of certain aspects of the filmmaker's life.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class A production
of I Heart Radio, Hello and Happy Friday. I'm Holly Fry.
I'm Tracy v Wilson. Tracy. We got to talk about
Todd Browning all week. We did, and for some reason,
(00:22):
there's no commonality except for the name Todd. You're writing
a thing about Todd Browning just made me think about
Lord Todd Wadley from the Joe car Stairs episode. It
has nothing to do with this, no, nothing, Although I
could see Todd Browning making a movie about Lord Todd Wadley,
(00:43):
if if that timing had worked out right, and especially
if Lord Todd Wadley was murdering people right. For those
of you who don't recalled our Joe Carstairs episodes, Joe
had like a ventriloquis doll who was essentially a best friend,
sort of a mascot kind of character, which is inherently
(01:06):
some people are afraid of ventriloquist dolls. I have my
own issues there. I have wanted to do Todd Browning
for a long time, and he is difficult because there's
some really yucky stuff in his life. There's a lot
I love his films. I mean Dracula obviously, Like, how
many ways have I found to talk about Dracula on
the show, right, We have talked about Meila Legosi, we
(01:29):
have talked about Bram Stoker, we have talked about bit
players on it. It's just, for me, extraordinarily beautiful and cool.
And I love how complex the making of that film
was in terms of the um Stoker estate, etcetera. And
I love how beautiful it is. I think it's such
an extraordinarily beautiful film um and I also have long
(01:52):
loved Freaks, and I have been really pleased in recent
years with how much discussion has gone on around it,
including finally, you know, for a long time, there really
was not much commentary on the film in film school
kind of scenarios from the disability community that was easily
accessible for people. I'm sure there were always people having
(02:12):
those discussions, but in terms of like what people could
look up and really like read articles about it that
were written by people who had that unique point of
view for it much harder to come by. So that's
been really interesting, and I think that's the beauty of
it is that there's no simple answer, there's no simple takeaway, right,
there are cases to be made both that it was
(02:34):
exploitive and that it was you know, pretty groundbreaking in
terms of representation. Kind of can sometimes fall into that
bucket of meant well but had some problems. Although you know,
there were certainly performers that were in that movie that
wanted to work with Browning again, and it had discussions
about future films they could collaborate on, even though this
(02:56):
didn't come to fruition. Probably if it had been more
successful or would have been more Yeah, but as we mentioned,
the world was not ready for Freaks. Well, and it's
it's uh, it's a trajectory that exists for a lot
of different films that are showing a group that has
(03:17):
not historically been represented a lot in film, Right, this
sort of arc going from like, this is the first
time this community was really depicted in this way in films,
and then years or in generation later, people within that
same communities that like sort of revisiting and saying, here's
how this reflects today, and like here's how representation has
(03:40):
evolved in films since then, and and that kind of thing. Yeah,
it is really interesting to read sort of the snippets
of interviews of people that worked on that movie and
their perception of Browning's relationship with the cast, And like
I mentioned that most of the crew members were like,
he did not treat us well during that but he
sure was kind to them, and he did seem I mean,
(04:02):
based on on sort of pattern recognition of looking at
a lot of those blurbs and interview quotes, he did
seem like he wanted to spend more time with that
cast and felt a little more comfortable around them than
he did with the crew for whatever reason, whether that
was a reminiscence about his younger years in the circus
or something else. I mean, there are pictures of him
(04:23):
on set hugging them and holding them and his wife
being there, um, and you know it looks very family ish.
I don't have a clear sense of how much of
that was staged versus like just a genuine, more you know,
casual capture of a moment. But it's one of those
(04:45):
things that also because he frankly lied so much about
his own feelings, life and motivations that like, we don't
even have a clear data set to start. Yeah, Well,
and then it also it raises some questions for me.
It's it's really hard to tell from a photo a
lot of times if you were not there to see
(05:07):
the context in which the photo was taken. But like
whether his treatment of the cast had like a degree
of infantilizing them or or being paternalistic or anything like that. Like,
it's hard to gauge. And the trick there is that
it seems like it was a very mixed bag, right,
there are some of those things that I mentioned of
(05:28):
him talking about in the press that it was very
anxiety producing for him. Was was because he sometimes did
talk about them in ways that we're in fantalizing. But
some members of the cast were his others. He clearly
had much more of a you know, a report that
you would associate more with people who considered each other
equals and everything in between. I think that was probably
(05:53):
only augmented by members of the cast also kind of
talking crap about each other sometimes. You know, there were
certainly some instances where some members of the cast would
give interviews and talk about how other people on the
film thought they were going Hollywood and that they were
(06:13):
going to be famous stars now, and they say that
in kind of a really dismissive they're very foolish kind
of way. You see some of those tensions that are referenced,
they're among them. But uh yeah, in terms of how
the film actually went, like I said, it seemed to
be a pretty smooth operation overall. I think because they
(06:36):
were accounting for the possibilities of unpredictability, which is very
very Uh it's it's interesting to me that you know
you can budget accidents. So, um, I had not known
prior to researching this about his drunk driving accident. That
(06:56):
was not delightful to read about because some of those descriptions,
I was like, I don't need to read this. It
is very gruesome, it's very graphic. It is enough to
know that, um, you know, elmur Booth lost his life
very violently and suddenly. Uh. And it is you know, like,
as we said, Browning never ever talked about it ever,
so we don't really have any sense of whether he
(07:17):
did feel personal responsibility over it or not, whether histories
took any accountability for his actions there. I mean, I
certainly have my suspicions that and I'm literally basing this
on no evidence other than my own suspicion. That is
very possible that someone at the studio worked to make
(07:38):
that story go away as quickly as possible. Um, it
would certainly have been in their best interest. Yeah, Todd Browning,
he was kind of a snazzy dresser at times, though,
which I enjoyed quite a bit. The least problematic thing
about him, yay. Yeah. I just I feel like there
(08:00):
is some event or thing, whether it actually happened or
he got it in his head that had happened when
he was quite young, that drove a lot of this behavior.
It seems like it, right, It's like you're putting together
a puzzle that has no picture, but based on how
much he kind of uh seemed to want to distance
(08:23):
himself from his family and his upbringing in his hometown
and create an entire other early biography story for himself
that left out any of the uncomfortable parts. And eventually,
you know, because he did have an alcohol abuse issue.
(08:43):
I just feel like there had to have been something
going on that we probably will never ever know, or
maybe not. Sometimes people just do things that aren't great. Um,
So it's hard to Yeah, but I sure will watch
Dracula a whole bunch of times this season because it's
beautiful and I love it. I love it, And I
(09:05):
will probably watch Freaks as well Universal Horror all started
with Dracula. Hopefully you, if you are listening, are about
to embark on a fabulous weekend. UH, and I hope
that means time off where you can watch your favorite films,
whether those are films made by Todd Browning or someone else. UH.
If you don't have time off, we hope that everything
you're having to do goes as smoothly as possible, everyone
(09:27):
is good to you, and that you stay safe and healthy.
We will be right back here tomorrow with a classic,
and then we will see you again on Monday with
all new content. Stuph you missed in History Class is
a production of I heart Radio. For more podcasts from
I heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
(09:49):
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows
Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class A production
of I Heart Radio, Hello and Happy Friday. I'm Holly Fry.
I'm Tracy v Wilson. Tracy. We got to talk about
Todd Browning all week. We did, and for some reason,
(00:22):
there's no commonality except for the name Todd. You're writing
a thing about Todd Browning just made me think about
Lord Todd Wadley from the Joe car Stairs episode. It
has nothing to do with this, no, nothing, Although I
could see Todd Browning making a movie about Lord Todd Wadley,
(00:43):
if if that timing had worked out right, and especially
if Lord Todd Wadley was murdering people right. For those
of you who don't recalled our Joe Carstairs episodes, Joe
had like a ventriloquis doll who was essentially a best friend,
sort of a mascot kind of character, which is inherently
(01:06):
some people are afraid of ventriloquist dolls. I have my
own issues there. I have wanted to do Todd Browning
for a long time, and he is difficult because there's
some really yucky stuff in his life. There's a lot
I love his films. I mean Dracula obviously, Like, how
many ways have I found to talk about Dracula on
the show, right, We have talked about Meila Legosi, we
(01:29):
have talked about Bram Stoker, we have talked about bit
players on it. It's just, for me, extraordinarily beautiful and cool.
And I love how complex the making of that film
was in terms of the um Stoker estate, etcetera. And
I love how beautiful it is. I think it's such
an extraordinarily beautiful film um and I also have long
(01:52):
loved Freaks, and I have been really pleased in recent
years with how much discussion has gone on around it,
including finally, you know, for a long time, there really
was not much commentary on the film in film school
kind of scenarios from the disability community that was easily
accessible for people. I'm sure there were always people having
(02:12):
those discussions, but in terms of like what people could
look up and really like read articles about it that
were written by people who had that unique point of
view for it much harder to come by. So that's
been really interesting, and I think that's the beauty of
it is that there's no simple answer, there's no simple takeaway, right,
there are cases to be made both that it was
(02:34):
exploitive and that it was you know, pretty groundbreaking in
terms of representation. Kind of can sometimes fall into that
bucket of meant well but had some problems. Although you know,
there were certainly performers that were in that movie that
wanted to work with Browning again, and it had discussions
about future films they could collaborate on, even though this
(02:56):
didn't come to fruition. Probably if it had been more
successful or would have been more Yeah, but as we mentioned,
the world was not ready for Freaks. Well, and it's
it's uh, it's a trajectory that exists for a lot
of different films that are showing a group that has
(03:17):
not historically been represented a lot in film, Right, this
sort of arc going from like, this is the first
time this community was really depicted in this way in films,
and then years or in generation later, people within that
same communities that like sort of revisiting and saying, here's
how this reflects today, and like here's how representation has
(03:40):
evolved in films since then, and and that kind of thing. Yeah,
it is really interesting to read sort of the snippets
of interviews of people that worked on that movie and
their perception of Browning's relationship with the cast, And like
I mentioned that most of the crew members were like,
he did not treat us well during that but he
sure was kind to them, and he did seem I mean,
(04:02):
based on on sort of pattern recognition of looking at
a lot of those blurbs and interview quotes, he did
seem like he wanted to spend more time with that
cast and felt a little more comfortable around them than
he did with the crew for whatever reason, whether that
was a reminiscence about his younger years in the circus
or something else. I mean, there are pictures of him
(04:23):
on set hugging them and holding them and his wife
being there, um, and you know it looks very family ish.
I don't have a clear sense of how much of
that was staged versus like just a genuine, more you know,
casual capture of a moment. But it's one of those
(04:45):
things that also because he frankly lied so much about
his own feelings, life and motivations that like, we don't
even have a clear data set to start. Yeah, Well,
and then it also it raises some questions for me.
It's it's really hard to tell from a photo a
lot of times if you were not there to see
(05:07):
the context in which the photo was taken. But like
whether his treatment of the cast had like a degree
of infantilizing them or or being paternalistic or anything like that. Like,
it's hard to gauge. And the trick there is that
it seems like it was a very mixed bag, right,
there are some of those things that I mentioned of
(05:28):
him talking about in the press that it was very
anxiety producing for him. Was was because he sometimes did
talk about them in ways that we're in fantalizing. But
some members of the cast were his others. He clearly
had much more of a you know, a report that
you would associate more with people who considered each other
equals and everything in between. I think that was probably
(05:53):
only augmented by members of the cast also kind of
talking crap about each other sometimes. You know, there were
certainly some instances where some members of the cast would
give interviews and talk about how other people on the
film thought they were going Hollywood and that they were
(06:13):
going to be famous stars now, and they say that
in kind of a really dismissive they're very foolish kind
of way. You see some of those tensions that are referenced,
they're among them. But uh yeah, in terms of how
the film actually went, like I said, it seemed to
be a pretty smooth operation overall. I think because they
(06:36):
were accounting for the possibilities of unpredictability, which is very
very Uh it's it's interesting to me that you know
you can budget accidents. So, um, I had not known
prior to researching this about his drunk driving accident. That
(06:56):
was not delightful to read about because some of those descriptions,
I was like, I don't need to read this. It
is very gruesome, it's very graphic. It is enough to
know that, um, you know, elmur Booth lost his life
very violently and suddenly. Uh. And it is you know, like,
as we said, Browning never ever talked about it ever,
so we don't really have any sense of whether he
(07:17):
did feel personal responsibility over it or not, whether histories
took any accountability for his actions there. I mean, I
certainly have my suspicions that and I'm literally basing this
on no evidence other than my own suspicion. That is
very possible that someone at the studio worked to make
(07:38):
that story go away as quickly as possible. Um, it
would certainly have been in their best interest. Yeah, Todd Browning,
he was kind of a snazzy dresser at times, though,
which I enjoyed quite a bit. The least problematic thing
about him, yay. Yeah. I just I feel like there
(08:00):
is some event or thing, whether it actually happened or
he got it in his head that had happened when
he was quite young, that drove a lot of this behavior.
It seems like it, right, It's like you're putting together
a puzzle that has no picture, but based on how
much he kind of uh seemed to want to distance
(08:23):
himself from his family and his upbringing in his hometown
and create an entire other early biography story for himself
that left out any of the uncomfortable parts. And eventually,
you know, because he did have an alcohol abuse issue.
(08:43):
I just feel like there had to have been something
going on that we probably will never ever know, or
maybe not. Sometimes people just do things that aren't great. Um,
So it's hard to Yeah, but I sure will watch
Dracula a whole bunch of times this season because it's
beautiful and I love it. I love it, And I
(09:05):
will probably watch Freaks as well Universal Horror all started
with Dracula. Hopefully you, if you are listening, are about
to embark on a fabulous weekend. UH, and I hope
that means time off where you can watch your favorite films,
whether those are films made by Todd Browning or someone else. UH.
If you don't have time off, we hope that everything
you're having to do goes as smoothly as possible, everyone
(09:27):
is good to you, and that you stay safe and healthy.
We will be right back here tomorrow with a classic,
and then we will see you again on Monday with
all new content. Stuph you missed in History Class is
a production of I heart Radio. For more podcasts from
I heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
(09:49):
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows
Stuff You Missed in History Class News
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Holly Frey
Tracy Wilson
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