December 16, 2020 • 49 mins
Holly is joined by Kerry Sautner, Chief Learning Officer of the National Constitution Center, to discuss the museum's mission, unlikely career paths to history, and how talking about the Constitution brings people together.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production
of I Heart Radio. Hello and welcome to the podcast.
I'm Holly Fry and I'm Tracy B. Wilson. So a
while back, I got to participate in an online class
session with the National Constitution Center. Uh, they wanted me
(00:24):
to talk about White House history after we did our
two parter. And despite having been really really nervous about
it because as they were telling me, oh, students from
all over can be asking questions, I was like, oh,
but I had an amazing time. And that is all
because of today's guest, Curry Soutner. The instant I started
talking with Curry, I wanted to have her on the show.
(00:45):
Curry is the chief Learning officer at the National Constitution
Center in Philadelphia, and she's passionate about the fact that
the Constitution is for everyone. That's obvious when you hear
her talk about it. So let's jump right into our chat.
So I am against so incredibly delighted that I have
(01:06):
Curry Soutner with me here today. So first, since to me,
you're kind of the face of the National Constitution Center
because you're the person who I have talked with most.
There will you just tell us about what the NCC
is absolutely UM. So, first of all, it's a great
organization that teaches all about the United States Constitution. UM,
(01:27):
and I'm really happy to be on talking about it today.
The National Constitution Center is a museum in Philadelphia that
has amazing exhibits looking at the Constitution from before the
Constitution existed and was written in Philadelphia all the way
through to modern conversations in cases. So the idea behind
the museum that I love so much is that it's
(01:50):
all about we the people. So we love to talk
about the Constitution. We love to talk about like which
amendment is it? You know, what's the case law around this?
But what you really wrap around and what that museum
does so well is talk about all the people in
every way that ensured that that Constitution isn't just a
written document, but it's a practical document that works. And
(02:14):
so that's really what matters, is the story of the
people when the actions that they took, both good and bad,
to ensure the Constitution is the document we want it
to be. So that's my favorite part about the museum,
and we always think about it as it's the National
Constitution Center that tells the story of we the people,
and then how do you fit into that conversation, not
(02:36):
just by visiting, but by the actions that you do
with a constitution and in your life. I love that
so much. My my soapbox topic is always that, like
we are all part of history being made all the time.
You don't have to sit in a seat of government
to be a part of the actions that are creating
history that will be important, uh years from now. So
that is so near and dear to my heart. How
(02:58):
long has the National Constitution sho Center been around? How
did it start? It's a great question, um, and it's
a really fascinating story. So you know, Constitution was signed
in seventeen seven, September seventeen sev seven. That's like our
big birthday. It's written and signed in Philadelphia. We are
on the building itself is on the most historic square
(03:19):
mile in America. But teaching about the Constitution is something
happens in the building but also online. We're a little
different than most museums that we have a place, but
that most people know us from our online educational tools.
So it started off with this idea that there should
be a place, and there should be an organization that
(03:42):
teaches about the Constitution in a nonpartisan way. That first
idea was actually a hundred years after the Constitution was signed,
so it was eighteen eighty seven they got the idea.
There was a group in Congress that said, oh, it's
a hundred years we should do something. And of course,
just like all things moving government, another hundred years went by,
(04:04):
and then there was actually, you know, even more energy.
So it was nineties seven that Congress got back on it.
They're like, okay, it's a hundred years later, we really
got to do it this time. And then it took
the entire year to get that written as a joint act,
so it's the um the Constitution Heritage Act. And so
(04:25):
it was September sixteenth, the day before Constitution Day seven,
I mean night that Reagan signed it into law. And
this was a joint partisan effort. And the idea behind
it was that there would be a place that teaches
about the United States Constitution, and then it would be
in Philadelphia, near Independence Hall where it happened, the place
(04:48):
in the land where it happened. But the mandate was
to teach all people about the United States Constitution. And
this is why We're different than most museums that were
not just a museum that's just one kind of like
appendage of who we are where this institution that brings
people together in all different ways online and through our
(05:08):
writings and through our videos and really engages people in
the history in the constitutional questions and then in the again,
how we fit into the puzzle and what are our
discussions around the constitution because our voice does matter. I
want to come back and talk about some of your
programs in a little bit because I think it's been
really really interesting to see the kinds of things you
(05:29):
guys have always been doing, but especially during a pandemic,
you guys have really amped up how you're engaging online.
But I first want to talk about how you fit
into the story of the National Constitution Center. So first,
you are like the education lead there, right, What is
that job? What does it entail? Because it seems to
me like you do a lot of stuff. Yeah, it's
(05:52):
like rule number one in education you must like coffee,
Like that's rule number one. Like any educator is going
to have some kind of like you know, educational crunch,
and I mind is coffee. Um, diet coke has been
my new COVID crunches as well. Um So some ways
to get a lot of energy because you're gonna be excited.
And but to be honest with you, like the content
(06:14):
makes me super excited, makes me nerd out, and like
finding the hidden stories that like you get to hear
about this person that you never heard about before, and
you know, and they decided to do something to make change.
Um and sometimes they didn't actually make the change, but
they fought for it. And so just to listen to
these stories of people in the past and the courage
(06:36):
that they had to fight against all the odds to
know that they were never going to see change in
their lifetime. But say, we are creating a more perfect union.
So I'm gonna take my step. And that's my duty
to this this constitution and this society to make change,
even if I won't see the outcomes of it. So
I that's what I get super excited about. It's coffee
and those stories that jazz me. Um So official, Like
(07:00):
my fancy pants title, which I love is Chief Learning Officer. Yeah,
it's it's a great title. I'm pretty sure. The Reagan Institute,
which is a partner of ours, their head of Education
I stole it from him. It was a great title, Like,
I love that, So it's always good to copy good ideas.
So what I do is I oversee all the education
we do in the building, online for students, for teachers,
(07:24):
and for adult learners of all ages, and really just
try to make sure that what we're doing is engaging
in the Constitution, teaching the history and the storytelling, and
making sure people feel like there's no barriers for them
learning the Constitution. It's not just for the constitutional scholars,
it's not just for the history nerds, that this is
(07:45):
something that affects us every day and that it's ours.
And so how my job, I always think to myself,
is I'm a door opener, So like, what tools can
I build to make sure that everybody knows that there's
a way in for them and that they're gonna love it.
It's really cool, it's really interesting. It's not always fun.
Some of these stories are heartbreaking and they literally make
(08:05):
you cry, but that's what we learned from too. We
learned and sometimes from the biggest tragedies um and some
from the most heroic events, and so looking at all
the in between, and sometimes they're really boring, stuffy parts
in between there. It's not just high and low as people.
There's a lot of in between. Um, And it's really
interesting too. So I get to do that, and I
(08:26):
get I have an awesome team that is super excited,
and I work with all of our constitutional scholars who
are fantastic, and we are really lucky that our scholars
are constantly saying to our education team, how can I
make that easier to understand? How can I make that
better for people to learn from? And that they're constant
learners too, so they are always asking to be how
(08:47):
to be better teachers. That's so marvelous and I think
it shows what I think is interesting is you did
not initially planned for a career in history or institutional education.
Will you tell us a little bit about where you
thought you were going to land and how that trajectory
shifted to get you where you are now. It's really funny.
(09:10):
So this is like a great lesson for anybody who
has a degree and they're like, oh, you know, why
did I ever waste the money in that degree? Um,
you never waste money on education. Rule number one. You
will always use those skills that you have, even if
it is just a fun party trick. Um it is okay,
it'll be a use useful skill. So so yeah, I Um,
(09:31):
I have an undergraded biology with a focus on marine sciences. Um.
So I really thought, and you can totally tell from
my personality, that I would have been great at this
job sarcasm insert here. Um I thought it would be.
I thought it would be either on a boat or
in a lab. Um, and very quickly realized I love
(09:52):
I love everything to do with biology. I absolutely love
marine biology. And it was actually a little bit more
of marine physics and marine chemistry that I loved because
I find it fascinating looking at big systems of water
and land shifting and and watching how these things interact
with the environment with a son like all those things.
And I'm a data dork and like you can hear
(10:14):
that in the work that I do today that all
this foundation and like analyzing and looking at numbers and
data and patterns is what I took away from that
undergrad degree. But you know, I so I got a
degree abology, I got a dreee in marine sciences, but
I wound up working in a lab and wound up
being the entertainment of the lab. I remember the one
(10:36):
day I came in and everyone's like, oh, okay, curry
go and I was like, wait, what do you mean go?
And they're like teach us about something and I was
like okay, and I didn't like I didn't. I realized
like it very quickly, you know, it did not fit
in and not in like a bad way, but it
just wasn't like I was very contained, it was very quiet,
(10:56):
it wasn't very chatty, and it was fascinating, but it
just wasn't right. So I wound up, you know, peace
announcing Europe for a couple of years, because that's what
you do when you're doing I really had a lot
of you know, great times, a lot of fun worked overseas.
UM came back and oddly enough, just and if you
remember this is gonna date me now, I looked up
(11:18):
the Yellow Pages. Is a ridiculous story. I like feathered
through the Yellow Pages and put my finger on a
museum in Philadelphia, UM, and I did a cold call
of the museum in Philadelphia, and oddly enough, the guy
who answered the phone on my cold call was the
head of HR who was going on a trip to
(11:39):
the location I had just come from. In Europe that
I had lived for two years. So I told him like, oh,
you're gonna love this and check out this. Like I
had traveled all over Europe, so I was like like
a tour guide. And at the end of the conversation,
he's like, oh my god, why did you call? And
it was like an hour and a half in and
what what I said was, you know, I you know,
(12:01):
I love your museum. I love going there and I'd
really like to see what positions you have open. And
he's like, well, I found one for you. He's like
it's education. He's like, man, you can talk and you
can have a great conversation, and you taught me so much.
And that's how I got my interview in a museum
education and now the world was open. I was like, wow,
I do love talking, I do love teaching, I do
(12:22):
love having conversations with people, and I do love learning.
So you know, a great educator is a great learner.
And so that really opened the door to me and
then I dove deep into education. I got my master's
in elementary ed. I worked in a Philadelphia school district
part time. Why I was working full time at the
museum and the at the same time. In two thousand
(12:43):
and three, the Constitutions and Are opened And a few
years after their opening, I was walking through the building
and I had worked with somebody who had worked there
before and said, like, this is an amazing place, but
it it it needs human life. Like there's a great
exhibits and there's great human store ease, but there's not
people teaching in place. And so that opened up the
(13:05):
door for an interview for a programs director at the
Constitution Center. I got in the door and just started
looking at like how kids were using the place, using
the space, and what did they want to learn? So
dove in deep and fifteen years later at the Constitution Center,
I got a doctorate in education and creativity and innovation.
(13:28):
Because we teach in so many different ways. We think teach.
When you say teaching, you think schools, but there's a
million ways people are learning, and there's a million ways
people are teaching, and schools in an unbelievable vital foundation
for that. But how do we build that and how
do we learn in all places, in all spaces. So
I like to think of myself as somebody who experiments
with non traditional education and dives deep into the topic
(13:51):
and looks for ways to make the content accessible for everybody.
And I get lucky enough that I get some of
the best scholars at my disposal to be like no, no no, no,
I don't understand that anymore on that, and it can
be like kind of a bossy teacher, UM. And I
get to work with them and ask all those questions,
but also make sure that my job is to make
(14:12):
sure that the kids get to ask questions, and that
the adult learners get to ask questions, and that their
questions are never ones that they feel bad to ask,
and they get to stop and say, Okay, that's really cool,
but I don't understand that word you just used, so
can you help me define it? So I spent the
last fifteen years diving so deep into the constitution um,
and then how to teach the constitutions. So I think
(14:34):
everybody should have a job that they're constantly learning in
and whatever the it is, if you're learning, you're gonna
have fun with it. So it's a really kind of
cool thing. And now, if you ever go on a
fishing trip with me, I'm really entertaining on a boat.
That's see as your retirement career. You can go back
to marine biology and just keep everyone entertained as like
(14:57):
the boat knowledge disseminator, maybe like a boat tour guide,
Like I'll be on the boat and be like, Okay,
as we go out to the fishing grounds, so we
fish for tuna, let me tell you about that wave
over there. I would book that tour in a New
York minute. I think that would be the best way
to go fishing in the world. This is obviously a
(15:24):
really strange year. And because you know, we are work
with a number of different museums or you know, have
people that we know that work in museums, we've had
a unique perspective to get some of those stories of
how museums are handling it and and what they're doing
to try to cope and still provide kind of the
functionality and the learning or the access to whatever they
(15:45):
present for people despite not being able to open their doors.
How are you guys managing it? You have done, I mean,
you already had robust online learning, but it seems like
everything just kind of went to eleven. Uh. You talk
about just kind of how you guys approached it when
you realize you needed to shift your your gears a
little bit. Since you are closed to the public in
(16:08):
terms of the physical space. Um, and you know what
you're doing right now, because there's some amazing programs that
anybody can be part of. And thanks, I appreciate it,
and so we did. We we very quickly as an organization.
We started with place and then we very quickly expanded
to how do we teach this nation? Because it's there's
(16:30):
national in our title. We need to do our job
right and make sure it's not just about the place.
And millions of people like go through our work every month,
but we're never going to see them in Philadelphia. I mean,
I'd love to see them all in Philadelphia. This is
an amazing city, but as in Philadelphia, and I can
say that. But we started with the Interactive Constitution, and
(16:51):
that was a piece that had been with the constitutions
and since before I was there, but six years ago
we really redefy did and we wanted it to marry
who we are as an organization. We teach about the Constitution. Center,
we teach about the Constitution, and when we teach about
it in a way that brings all perspectives to the table,
so looking at constitutional questions not political questions. So a
(17:16):
constitutional question is like what may the government do? What
powers are in the constitution to allow the government to
do that? So all these things that you see in
your life every day typically come out as questions like
wait a minute, can they do that? That's a great
constitutional question. That's like awesome one, and I think usually
how it comes out of my mouth, I don't know
you can do that, guys, But it's looking at the government.
(17:39):
Can you know, and public schools search a kid's lacker?
Can they search your kids backpack? Can people come into
your home? And why can they come into your home?
If they can, what are the rules around it? And
what's the government? And that's saying what the who can
come into your home? Is looking at the government? So
can the police come into your home? Things like that,
can they search your phone? All those questions can and
(18:00):
the president do that? And executive orders? That's like the
number one question of the last fifteen years, you know,
looking at executive orders? Can they do that? Great questions?
So those are typically constitutional questions. The questions that come
out of your mouth and say like wait, I think
we should do this or should we not do this?
That's typically a policy question or a political question. So
(18:22):
our job was to start, Let's get your foundation right,
Let's get your basement solid. We want a strong structure
under every single American, So start with the Constitution. Let's
bring all perspectives to the table and share what we
agree upon. That's the Interactive Constitution, and it's a great resource.
It's all free, it's online, and it looks at every
(18:43):
single section of the United States Constitution. And we get
the top two scholars on that and say, okay, we're
gonna talk about, say the Fourth Amendment and privacy and
search and seizure topics like that. We get the top
two scholars in that area, and the first thing we
make them do is tell us what they agree upon,
because we sometimes feel like there's a lot we don't
(19:04):
agree upon as Americans, and that's not always true. There's
a lot of common ground. So we asked them to
write a joint explainer, like a joint essay of where
they agree on the Constitution and then where they diverge
as matters of debate. And so we really want people
to understand that there's a lot around the law that
we can coalesce around. But then there's also areas that
(19:26):
haven't been completely filtered through and still debate around and
that's okay, and we can talk about it. So that's
whol we redid and really doubled down six years ago
and then we relaunched it last year. So in the
last month we are the third most visited website for
a museum in the United States because of that Interactive Constitution.
(19:49):
Because people hear things in the news and they go,
wait a minute, how does that work? Whose job is that?
Can they do that? When they look at the Interactive
Constitution and it's the gateway, you know, it's the gateway
into the Constitution. It helps give them a foundation and
then that's where I come in and lure them into more.
You love this so much, now, don't you want to
join a class on it? So all these programs are
(20:13):
we're online a few years ago. So like our classes
that we teach every single week with students in middle school,
in high school and students lifelong learners of all ages.
We started a few years ago, so lucky us, we
were exploring ways to connect classrooms with each others. So
it's called it's called the Scholar Exchange Program or the
(20:35):
Exchange Program, And what we wanted to do is We
wanted to give kids practice talking to each other about
difficult constitutional questions, because if we worry that our adults
can't do it, we need to start making sure that
our kids can do it. And so we started three
years ago connecting classes to classes, exchange exchange of ideas,
exchange of constitution, exchange of dialogue. And that's the best
(20:58):
we can do as an organization and teach the constitution,
look at the constitutional questions, and then give place in
space for discussion and dialogue. That's civil. That when COVID hit,
we had been experimenting with bringing scholars in the classrooms
and we literally turned to switch. We said, why are
we doing this just for classrooms. Let's open this up
(21:20):
and make it public and let's put it online. And
then we also follow really quickly with our town Hall series,
which is an adult program where we have multiple scholars
talking about the issues and adults asking questions. And it's
been really fascinating to see the thousands and thousands of
students join us. And what I love about it is
(21:43):
talk about open doors. We see kids from all over
the country talking to each other. So I have fifth
graders in Idaho talking to fifth graders in Florida. You know,
kids logging in because they are homeschool kid with a
private school student, with a public school student, um pro
Gel schools. They're all in it together. We have younger
kids and older kids in there, and it's fantastic to
(22:05):
really make sure that we're helping kids of all ages
and students of all ages talk to each other about
the Constitution, get their constitutions straight. And that opens up
even more questions and giving them chances to ask those questions,
because sometimes you you want to ask that question, but
you don't have the right person to ask. So we're
gonna supply you with the best scholars and make it
(22:27):
really engaging along the way, and then give you chances
to talk to each other about it, so all are free,
and it really takes that core of constitution conversations and
just opens it broadly across the country. Yeah, and I
feel compelled to point out for our listeners that when
those like sessions are happening, you are there, like taking questions,
(22:48):
parsing those out, and asking them directly to people, so
they're getting real time answers from like levels of like
deep knowledge that most people would never have access to
and I'm always amazed at how you juggle it. But
because it's a lot going on, it's like people talking
(23:08):
and you're kind of directing the discussion, but you're also
monitoring the chat and like taking in the questions. So, uh,
it's quite a thing to see happen there. You go. Um,
it's clearly working. I really do. When you first told me, like, oh, no,
anybody from anywhere can be accessing this session and and
asking questions, I was like, that is amazing. This brings
(23:31):
me to my next question, which is that you have
mentioned that this is the learning that you offer is
for all ages, and how you know you definitely try
to get kids involved in learning early on, but that
you also have adult programs. How do you juggle kind
of trying to figure out the best ways to make
(23:52):
that information accessible, digestible, easy to understand for all ages
because some of your sessions are basically all ages. Yeah,
and that's been like fascinating to watch how this COVID
and just online education is blowing up typical structures that
have been put in the place to segment people by age.
(24:14):
And if you think about it, like I always think
about it necessary and this is like my nerdy education
side coming out, but like schools are set up to
be Okay, you're in this age bracket, you're in this grade,
and you go through life that way, and then you
go into the real world and I don't work with
anybody my age, like nobody's my exact age, Like that's
the only time you ever get that kind of like segmentation.
(24:37):
So this is changing things. So we do we do host.
So one of the things we did is we said, like, okay,
we're going to designate certain times during the week for
certain not age levels, but content levels. So we say
it's a middle school program, you know, Mondays and Wednesday's
at twelve Eastern time. But I want to really like
(25:00):
reiterate that it's it's a it's an entry level time.
So we do get a lot of middle schoolers, but
we also get adults. We get high schoolers because that's
the level they feel they want to be exposed to
at that time. And that's great. So knowing in your
head like kind of like what level middle school is,
you say, Okay, that one's for me at the Mondays
(25:21):
and Wednesdays at two o'clock Eastern time. That's the high
school level. High school college level. And again, the younger
kids that are really advanced are jumping in on that one,
and the adults that are like, I need to freshen up,
but you know, I know a little bit about this,
they're jumping in on that too. So the majority of
students are that age bracket. But it's really open. So
(25:41):
we've been thinking, as an educational institution, how do we
change that terminology so it does isn't a barrier. I'm
not a middle school kid, so this I feel embarrassed
to go to a middle school level. I finally, adults,
especially you know, the active older adults, the seniors, they
don't care. They're like, I'll go to the third grade
one like they right care, but like you know, if
(26:01):
you're seventeen, that might not make you feel good. So
I want everybody to feel good. It's okay, It's like, okay,
let's do you know college level one, college level two,
like entry entry level, you know, advanced level. That's kind
of the way we talk about it. But we have
seen on the Friday session, So Friday at one and
(26:22):
they should never let me name anything just on like
a side funny no, because I just call it the
all in session and they're like thanks, I appreciated, but
it literally was like that was what I was thinking. Okay,
it's Friday at one o'clock, have at it. I don't care.
Whoever wants to come can come. Let's see what we're doing.
That's been fascinating because we are getting all ages. So
(26:43):
we've seen a second grade group of brownies at the
same time that I had an eighty two year old
advanced judge and they're all in the same half an
hour conversations. These are quick, these are fun. We try
to do lots of visuals just court younger learners and
support the language, because sometimes the language can be a barrier.
(27:05):
So how can I, as an educator use imagery and
infographics so it makes you hear a new word, but
now it's clicking because you just understand what it is
through the infographics. So all those tools of like good
teaching or applied Like what I usually say is like,
am I using universal design for learning? How can I
best accommodate all learners of all ages and all levels
(27:29):
in one session? And really think like little House on
the prairie. Okay, I've got now all the tech tools,
but I have all these different ages, so go um,
and I have found that because the students, especially my
younger students, they don't care, they'll ask anything they want,
it helps everybody. So I love the two ends of
the spectrum. So my third graders and my nine year
(27:52):
old are identical actually because they just don't care and
they'll ask anything they want. What they ask maybe different,
but the fact that they are like they're they're so
secure in who they are, they will ask like you
just used a word I don't know. Can you try again?
That was the statement from one of my third graders,
and I was like, Okay, I love you like I.
(28:14):
I wish everyone felt that free because so many of
us would never admit like I don't actually know what
she just said. Um, but that's the way you're gonna
learn the best. And because she asked that, there was
a whole group of people that now learned because she
was able to ask that, Cecilia, she was awesome and
she was like, Bam, I'm going to ask this question.
I love it so much. You have talked a little
(28:35):
bit about the interactive Constitution that you have, but I
would love for you to talk a little bit more
about it because it really is an astonishing piece of
I want to say technology, but it's not even that
because it's technology, but it's also a scholarship and it's
you know, interactive. Cannot be overstated on this, Like you
literally can click through the Constitution and get you know,
(28:57):
little pop ups that will be explainers and it's visual
at the same time that it's a lot of text.
And you mentioned that you guys kind of just redid it. Um,
So if you would talk through kind of what guides
really how you present, like having those two scholars right
their thing to make sure it is easy to navigate
as well as easy to you know, get additional information
(29:20):
on something. It's such an amazing piece of work for
what is a living document. So it's kind of a
weird sort of it's almost like language immersion. You're in
the Constitution when you're using it, which I love. So yeah,
well you talk about kind of how that all became
the marvel that it is. Yeah, I a million in oerations, Um,
(29:42):
So what you know, I think working with great partners.
So we work with American Constitutional Society and the Federalist Society,
so they're really kind of ideologically very different, and so
we worked with them and said give us your best.
So what I learned very quickly on this project when
we first start it was that scholars are like doctors.
(30:03):
They're very uniquely focused in one area. So like you
don't go ask the pediatrists how to fix your heart valve,
like you go to the right doctor. That's how it
is for the scholars to you know, we have scholars
that we work with that our generalists, but they also
have an area of specialty. So to get that, to
get the two top organization saying here's our best scholar
(30:25):
on this gives you this level of credibility that you're
able to bring the best to the table. It was
so many lessons learned along the way, and like how
do we keep it short enough but still give enough
of the content that you feel sound on it. So
having that joint explainer was huge because that's where most
people start. And also how do we make sure we're
(30:48):
not walking people away from the Constitution's actual text but
bringing them closer Like these were all the goals that
we are trying to parse out and figure out as
we went through and then asking these great amazing scholars, Okay,
we need this to be like for students as well,
can you write this at a high school reading level?
(31:09):
And then them coming back and saying absolutely, and then
reading the first essays and saying, oh my god, I
don't think they've ever met a high school kid before.
You're like, oh no, Like, I love that you thought
they'd know these words, So like going back and forth,
but then understanding that at some point this is their
(31:30):
names are signed onto this, so they have to give
you a high enough level but still make it accessible.
What a balance, And well, that's why we think it's
so successful because we've balanced that top scholars working with
great partners, the right people, and then balancing that kind
of in between between great scholarly work but accessible material,
(31:52):
and then laying it out in a way that is
so user friendly that you can, you know, jump into
one section and then go down a rabbit hole and
keep going in that one area and then see what
the point and counterpoint are on these discussions. But I
also love about the next version that we did about
a year ago, as we started layering in all these
(32:13):
other tools that help you again help you understand the words,
help you understand the Constitution, and also help you understand
that it's relevant that it's not just a document written
two hundred and so many years ago, that it is
happening this day, this year, last week. And so that's
what the explainers are great about. Two. It doesn't just
(32:34):
leave you in seven. It says they were talking about seven.
Guess what, we still haven't figured it out yet. Here's
the key and it kind of makes you feel Okay,
You're like, okay, good, we're still working on it. Um.
So we layered the videos, the town caused, the podcast
lesson plans, and all the classes on top of it.
(32:56):
So I kind of think, and this is where I'll
go to my Shrek reference. It's kind of like an
onion that we keep growing. Um. So Ogre's and the
Constitution are kind of like onions that they have many layers. Uh,
this is why I work with kids. I love it
though that I mean, that's a perfect way to think
about it. What has been the most surprising aspect of
(33:26):
this work for you? Like, I'm sure there's been something
where you're like, I did not ever see this coming,
Like every day it was like huh, um, I think
I'm trying to think. So historically, the most surprising aspect
when like it's almost like when I first started and
(33:46):
now because I feel like I'm constantly new UM and
constantly learning. So when I first started UM, I think
the most surprising aspect that I had was the difference
between when people first come to us and when people
leave us. And it's still today the truth. People walk
in with this, you know, they're kind of like, h
(34:08):
it's an old, stuffy document, like all these things, and
they've got this concept that the Constitution is like I
should know it, Like this is almost like a guilt
associated with it, like I should know it, but it's
also like boring. And then within minutes I didn't know that.
Oh my god, that's fascinating. Tell me more. And so
when they leave us, they're like hooked and so they're
(34:30):
like absolutely like oh my god, I love this, and
they're now like they're like they've drank the kool aid
there in the band there with us, and you're like,
so that was the first kind of like moment of
working in the museum that I saw that, and it
was I'll tell you a real quick funny story. We
were at an activity table in the middle of the lobby.
It's like my first few months there and we're doing
(34:52):
something with a group of kids and it's families and
everything is it's like a weekend, and this kid turns
around and he's probably like nine years old and he
looks at he looks at us, and he's like all
the staff, and he looks at his mom and goes,
m and you said this would be boring, And he's
like annoyed at his mother and she looks at the
(35:13):
staff and goes, no, we didn't know. I didn't. Like
it's like wait, like throw the shame. Nine year old
like I love it and I left and we left it.
We're like it's okay, and like, but that's what we
almost want to tell people, like come in, you're gonna
love it here. You're like you're gonna have so much fun.
And then the people who already love it feel like
(35:34):
they found them buddy, like they found like their home.
We have a T shirt for our teachers that we're
producing right now, and it says the Constitution Come nerd
out with us, because like we own that we love
it and we should all be constitutional nerds. Like that
is not a negative that we are. It is our document,
it is our power as we the people. And then
(35:54):
let's come nerd out together. And then the back says
we the people, Um, but no, it's kind of cool.
Thing is again just going back to the fact that
you know, we always make We always think about what
are we hand it, what are we doing, and how
do we make it more engaging, more fun, And so
COVID was a kind of like, Okay, we got lemons,
(36:15):
We're making lemon cello, we're making lemonade, We're making everything
with these lemons. And my favorite part of this is
learning how learners of all ages can come together talk
about a constitutional topic and learn from each other, so
that eight year olds are learning from third graders and
third graders are learning from eight year olds. And it's
(36:35):
not just about our scholars and our educators and our museum,
but that we can create place across the country for
people to come together and break down educational barriers and
knowledge barriers and feel a community and again like it's
your constitution, you found your home, you're here now, and
that we have this now different community in place, in
(36:57):
space and in time. That's really really cool and exciting.
It's so unique. I imagine that this being an election
year with a lot of debate going on on every street, corner,
dinner table, et cetera. That you guys have been really
really slammed. What has that been like for you, like,
just to manage probably all the queries about constitutionality of
(37:19):
various different things. It's awesome. So we have a running
joke that the Constitution hasn't been this talked about since
se seven. So thank you, you know, thank you everything
that's going on. So because now people love it and
this is this is their hook, this is their inn,
and now they're with us, it's been great. The hardest
(37:40):
part for us is to make sure that we give
people time to understand all perspectives and all sides in
the Constitution and then we stay in the constitutional questions.
So sometimes people come to us with a political question
or very one sided and we want them to come
in and we want to lay out the constitution forum
and give them all the perspectives so then they can
(38:02):
go from there and say, Okay, now I get it.
I see all different parts. We're not asking people to
change their minds. We're just asking people to hear the
Constitution and hear the other perspectives that they may have
not heard before, or they might just want to understand
where is the other side coming from. So our job
is to really make sure that we're giving ability to
(38:23):
have civil dialogues, and we don't think they will be unemotional.
I am the most emotional person probably anybody will meet.
Let's mostly associated with super excitement, but it's still an
emotion and I want people to be jazzed about it.
I want people to be excited, but we also want
people to listen, and that's a really hard skill, especially
when your emotion is really high. So when we talk
(38:46):
about the Constitution, we look at it. I always say,
we look at it at the table. We put the
Constitution on the table in the center of all of
us and we talk about the Constitution and that removes
a little bit of the personal and pulls us back
a minute so we can talk about it together and
brings us together as a community. And then from there
we can decide what how do I want to see
(39:06):
and understand and where do I sit with these constitutional debates,
And that's on you, and that's your choice, and your
that's great, have your perspective, but let's all come together
at first together looking at the Constitution as kind of
the tool that unifies and and connects us and we
need those connecting points. So that's been the I think
(39:27):
the struggle at times is people feel like they've lost
connecting points with each other. But we really want to
say the Constitution is that connected point and it it
may not be perfect, and we've we've had to change
it over time, but it's still something that we can
rally upon and say we have power to change. And
how do we find our power and how do we
(39:47):
find our power to protect as well? I love it? Okay,
for my last question, I've said I love it like
thirty two times in this interview. Um, But for my
last question, I would love to hear from you, like,
what the one thing is that you wish everybody knew
or understood about the Constitution that maybe isn't always top
of mind or something that they come to the table with.
(40:08):
It's hard to pick one. You can you can give
multiple answers. There's no problem there. So let me think
for a hot second. So there's so much to teach
about the Constitution, There's so many things to understand about it,
and we talk so much about the document. So we
we love to talk about the Constitution history and the
(40:32):
modern questions, like all those pieces are what we want
to talk about. In value, I would like people to
walk away knowing an understanding four branches of government. So
if we think about the Constitution, most time when you
think about government, you think three branches of government. There's
always those tests that come out every year about we
don't know each branch of government. It's not about memorizing things.
(40:55):
It's about understanding the goals and the responsibilities of each brand.
So when I say four, it also talks about you.
So you know, we want to talk to people about
Article one, and that's Congress. What's Congress, why was it
put together, how has it worked over time, and what's
its job responsibility? And then Article to the presidency and
(41:17):
the executive branch, same deal. Article three the courts, same deal.
We have to understand what their jobs are, how and
why they were set up the way they were, and
then how they have to work together or work in opposition.
And that's okay if they work in opposition at times.
The system was set up to be that way. But
what we forget sometimes is we forget to talk about
(41:40):
the fourth branch, and that's we, the people. We have
a responsibility to ensure that this Constitution works, that it
is not just a written document, but that it is
a document that has value and action as well. So
it's our job to say, hey, Congress, we need you
to do this, we need to not do this, we
needed to do this better presidency, same deal, courts, same deal.
(42:03):
There's that we the people aspect of popular sovereignty that
we sometimes forget to teach. So that gives us all
persons in America agency and responsibility. So we always talk
about what is the job, you know, what are the
what is the task given in the Constitution to that
(42:23):
part of the government, But what's the duty, like, what
is the duty of that? And so what is our
duty as citizens? And it's not just about saying what's wrong,
but it's also supporting and saying what's working. And so
that's two really sides of the coin. And we can't
think of things in just everything is being wrong or great.
(42:44):
We have to really look at the whole spectrum of
these pieces. And we have a tendency in American history
to either make people heroes or make people villains, and
the reality of it is there's a lot of in between,
and we need to look at all of that. So
people think about the popular sovereignty aspect, think about we
the people, and let's go live in the gray because
most of our life is gray and we need to
(43:06):
really parse out those pieces as well beautifully put uh, Curry,
where is the best place for people to go to
find the National Constitution Center online and once this pandemic
is over in person, uh, and get their their myths
on that beautiful interactive constitution. So best place to go
(43:26):
is Constitution Center dot org. You can also google Interactive
constitution and find the National Constitution Center. It's it pops
up really quickly, which is great. But go to Constitution
Center dot org. If you're ever in Philadelphia, please visit
us on Independence Mall. We are on the most historic
square mile in America. So hey, you heard that Boston,
(43:47):
you heard that Colonel Williamsburg. Philly win. Just like if
we were in person, I you know, like we win.
We own it. So many great things about Philadelphia, but
this dork mile and we're on it. So constitutions and
er dot org. And remember of what we do at
the center is free. So we work really hard to
(44:08):
ensure that our materials have no barriers, and that sometimes
paid walls are huge barriers for people, so it's free,
join it, share it, follow us on Twitter, follow us
on Facebook. We'd love to see you guys there. Um
and if you need anything education at Constitution Center dot org.
Educators are here to help and constitutions and our educators
(44:30):
love their jobs, so whatever you need, let us know.
So yes, you two can be talking to both second
graders and ninety year olds at the same time about
the Constitution. Curry, I cannot thank you enough. This has
been such a delightful way to spend this hour. Thank
you so much. It's great to be here, and thank
you so much because your class and so just the
listeners know that you did a class with us and
(44:52):
it was on the Executive Branch, the Presidency and the
White House, and it's absolutely one of my favorite classes
because as I love the idea of talking about the Constitution,
talking about our history in America, and talking about police
because police matters and it's how we rally around our
identity of who we are. So thank you so much
(45:12):
for adding so much depth of knowledge to that class.
And I know our President Jeff Rosen his comment was
that was amazing. I'm going to hear more so, thank
you so much. I'm so glad. It was my absolute
pleasure and delight, and you made it super easy. I
was very worried because I never think of myself as
an expert unreally anything historical. I'm very enthusiastic, but I
(45:35):
don't always retain things. So you made it super easy
and fun and like an absolute delight for me. So
thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. I have
a great one. This was so much fun YEA for
me as well. I am absolutely not exaggerating when I
say that every time I have an interaction with Curry,
it legitimately makes you want to study the Constitution. She
(45:58):
makes the fact that it's a liveing documents so apparent
that you just want to go engage with it. So
my deepest thanks to her for coming on the show.
I hope everyone else that listens feels the same way.
Once again, if you want to check out the work
that Curry and the National Constitution Center do, including that
interactive Constitution that they talked about, visit Constitution Center dot org.
(46:23):
Do you also have a little listener mail? I do?
I do. This is from our listener Laura, who writes
a Dear Holly and Tracy. I've been listening to you
for about three years, but I am a podcast nerd,
and I must start a new podcast from the first
episode and then binge as much as I can. I
am now officially caught up. I listened in the car
at work, while cooking, etcetera. So sometimes ten hours a
(46:45):
day of listening. That's a lot. Uh. There have been
many times when I have wanted to write to say
well done or ask for clarification, but then remember that
I was so far behind that you might have thought
me crazy for asking questions that were from podcast years ago. Now,
all that I'm caught up, I feel I can finally
write you to say thank you. As an aside, I
appreciate that I would never think anyone was crazy for
(47:07):
asking about old episodes. But it gets harder and harder
the farther back you go for Tracy and I to
recall things, and they're from other hosts. I'm like, I
have no idea, yeah exactly. My daughter has recently graduated
with honors from a local university with a history major,
and it has been so nice to be able to
have things to discuss with her. I did not grow
(47:28):
up laking history but find that now that I am older,
I can't get enough of it. You have definitely been
part of that journey. I think my favorite part of
the podcasts are when you genuinely laugh at yourselves or
at circumstances. When I first started listening, I would hear
your voices announcing trips or other events, but you weren't
the voice yet of the podcast, so it was a
delight for me to finally catch up and put your
personalities with the voices. When I heard that you got
(47:50):
hate mail, I just about cried for you. You two
are delightful and make me smile on the daily. And Holly,
when you mentioned Coach McGurk a few episodes ago, I
nearly wanted to jump through the speaker and give you
a high five. But you know, COVID, not many of
my friends understand my obsession with that show. I feel
like we're kindred spirits about many things. As a Canadian,
I especially love when you do some of our history
(48:10):
and history from other parts of the world. The episodes
that have highlighted marginalized people have opened my eyes even
more than they were before, and I look forward to
learning more. Knowledge is power, and it is through said
knowledge that change can come anyway in this strange time.
I'm glad to hear you are both staying well. It's
almost comforting to know that the whole world is going
through the same thing at the same time. Thank you
(48:31):
both for all you do. I have no idea what
I'm going to do now that I don't have multiple
episodes to listen to every day. Laura, this is such
a lovely note one. Of course, anytime somebody's gonna shout
out coach McGurk, I want to read that letter for
those of you who don't know. That is from UH,
an older Lauren Bouchard series long before Bob's Burger's called
Home Movies, which is one of the most charming things
(48:52):
ever put on a television screen in my opinion. UM,
You're so incredibly sweet, and I really loved hearing all
of this, and I'm so excited that your your daughter
studies history. UM. I will be curious keep us updated
on what she does with that if she ends up
working in a history field, because I always love to
hear those. It seemed like a good match for this
(49:12):
episode where I talked to someone that works with history
every day. Although did not think that that was going
to be their life's path initially. So if you would
like to write to us and share the ways you
connect to history or anything else, you can do that
at History Podcast at i heeart radio dot com. You
can also find us on social media as Missed in History.
You can also subscribe to this podcast. That's easy as pie.
(49:33):
You can do it on the I heart radio app,
at Apple podcast or wherever it is you listen. Stuff
you Missed in History Class is a production of I
heart Radio. For more podcasts from I heart Radio, visit
the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows.
Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production
of I Heart Radio. Hello and welcome to the podcast.
I'm Holly Fry and I'm Tracy B. Wilson. So a
while back, I got to participate in an online class
session with the National Constitution Center. Uh, they wanted me
(00:24):
to talk about White House history after we did our
two parter. And despite having been really really nervous about
it because as they were telling me, oh, students from
all over can be asking questions, I was like, oh,
but I had an amazing time. And that is all
because of today's guest, Curry Soutner. The instant I started
talking with Curry, I wanted to have her on the show.
(00:45):
Curry is the chief Learning officer at the National Constitution
Center in Philadelphia, and she's passionate about the fact that
the Constitution is for everyone. That's obvious when you hear
her talk about it. So let's jump right into our chat.
So I am against so incredibly delighted that I have
(01:06):
Curry Soutner with me here today. So first, since to me,
you're kind of the face of the National Constitution Center
because you're the person who I have talked with most.
There will you just tell us about what the NCC
is absolutely UM. So, first of all, it's a great
organization that teaches all about the United States Constitution. UM,
(01:27):
and I'm really happy to be on talking about it today.
The National Constitution Center is a museum in Philadelphia that
has amazing exhibits looking at the Constitution from before the
Constitution existed and was written in Philadelphia all the way
through to modern conversations in cases. So the idea behind
the museum that I love so much is that it's
(01:50):
all about we the people. So we love to talk
about the Constitution. We love to talk about like which
amendment is it? You know, what's the case law around this?
But what you really wrap around and what that museum
does so well is talk about all the people in
every way that ensured that that Constitution isn't just a
written document, but it's a practical document that works. And
(02:14):
so that's really what matters, is the story of the
people when the actions that they took, both good and bad,
to ensure the Constitution is the document we want it
to be. So that's my favorite part about the museum,
and we always think about it as it's the National
Constitution Center that tells the story of we the people,
and then how do you fit into that conversation, not
(02:36):
just by visiting, but by the actions that you do
with a constitution and in your life. I love that
so much. My my soapbox topic is always that, like
we are all part of history being made all the time.
You don't have to sit in a seat of government
to be a part of the actions that are creating
history that will be important, uh years from now. So
that is so near and dear to my heart. How
(02:58):
long has the National Constitution sho Center been around? How
did it start? It's a great question, um, and it's
a really fascinating story. So you know, Constitution was signed
in seventeen seven, September seventeen sev seven. That's like our
big birthday. It's written and signed in Philadelphia. We are
on the building itself is on the most historic square
(03:19):
mile in America. But teaching about the Constitution is something
happens in the building but also online. We're a little
different than most museums that we have a place, but
that most people know us from our online educational tools.
So it started off with this idea that there should
be a place, and there should be an organization that
(03:42):
teaches about the Constitution in a nonpartisan way. That first
idea was actually a hundred years after the Constitution was signed,
so it was eighteen eighty seven they got the idea.
There was a group in Congress that said, oh, it's
a hundred years we should do something. And of course,
just like all things moving government, another hundred years went by,
(04:04):
and then there was actually, you know, even more energy.
So it was nineties seven that Congress got back on it.
They're like, okay, it's a hundred years later, we really
got to do it this time. And then it took
the entire year to get that written as a joint act,
so it's the um the Constitution Heritage Act. And so
(04:25):
it was September sixteenth, the day before Constitution Day seven,
I mean night that Reagan signed it into law. And
this was a joint partisan effort. And the idea behind
it was that there would be a place that teaches
about the United States Constitution, and then it would be
in Philadelphia, near Independence Hall where it happened, the place
(04:48):
in the land where it happened. But the mandate was
to teach all people about the United States Constitution. And
this is why We're different than most museums that were
not just a museum that's just one kind of like
appendage of who we are where this institution that brings
people together in all different ways online and through our
(05:08):
writings and through our videos and really engages people in
the history in the constitutional questions and then in the again,
how we fit into the puzzle and what are our
discussions around the constitution because our voice does matter. I
want to come back and talk about some of your
programs in a little bit because I think it's been
really really interesting to see the kinds of things you
(05:29):
guys have always been doing, but especially during a pandemic,
you guys have really amped up how you're engaging online.
But I first want to talk about how you fit
into the story of the National Constitution Center. So first,
you are like the education lead there, right, What is
that job? What does it entail? Because it seems to
me like you do a lot of stuff. Yeah, it's
(05:52):
like rule number one in education you must like coffee,
Like that's rule number one. Like any educator is going
to have some kind of like you know, educational crunch,
and I mind is coffee. Um, diet coke has been
my new COVID crunches as well. Um So some ways
to get a lot of energy because you're gonna be excited.
And but to be honest with you, like the content
(06:14):
makes me super excited, makes me nerd out, and like
finding the hidden stories that like you get to hear
about this person that you never heard about before, and
you know, and they decided to do something to make change.
Um and sometimes they didn't actually make the change, but
they fought for it. And so just to listen to
these stories of people in the past and the courage
(06:36):
that they had to fight against all the odds to
know that they were never going to see change in
their lifetime. But say, we are creating a more perfect union.
So I'm gonna take my step. And that's my duty
to this this constitution and this society to make change,
even if I won't see the outcomes of it. So
I that's what I get super excited about. It's coffee
and those stories that jazz me. Um So official, Like
(07:00):
my fancy pants title, which I love is Chief Learning Officer. Yeah,
it's it's a great title. I'm pretty sure. The Reagan Institute,
which is a partner of ours, their head of Education
I stole it from him. It was a great title, Like,
I love that, So it's always good to copy good ideas.
So what I do is I oversee all the education
we do in the building, online for students, for teachers,
(07:24):
and for adult learners of all ages, and really just
try to make sure that what we're doing is engaging
in the Constitution, teaching the history and the storytelling, and
making sure people feel like there's no barriers for them
learning the Constitution. It's not just for the constitutional scholars,
it's not just for the history nerds, that this is
(07:45):
something that affects us every day and that it's ours.
And so how my job, I always think to myself,
is I'm a door opener, So like, what tools can
I build to make sure that everybody knows that there's
a way in for them and that they're gonna love it.
It's really cool, it's really interesting. It's not always fun.
Some of these stories are heartbreaking and they literally make
(08:05):
you cry, but that's what we learned from too. We
learned and sometimes from the biggest tragedies um and some
from the most heroic events, and so looking at all
the in between, and sometimes they're really boring, stuffy parts
in between there. It's not just high and low as people.
There's a lot of in between. Um, And it's really
interesting too. So I get to do that, and I
(08:26):
get I have an awesome team that is super excited,
and I work with all of our constitutional scholars who
are fantastic, and we are really lucky that our scholars
are constantly saying to our education team, how can I
make that easier to understand? How can I make that
better for people to learn from? And that they're constant
learners too, so they are always asking to be how
(08:47):
to be better teachers. That's so marvelous and I think
it shows what I think is interesting is you did
not initially planned for a career in history or institutional education.
Will you tell us a little bit about where you
thought you were going to land and how that trajectory
shifted to get you where you are now. It's really funny.
(09:10):
So this is like a great lesson for anybody who
has a degree and they're like, oh, you know, why
did I ever waste the money in that degree? Um,
you never waste money on education. Rule number one. You
will always use those skills that you have, even if
it is just a fun party trick. Um it is okay,
it'll be a use useful skill. So so yeah, I Um,
(09:31):
I have an undergraded biology with a focus on marine sciences. Um.
So I really thought, and you can totally tell from
my personality, that I would have been great at this
job sarcasm insert here. Um I thought it would be.
I thought it would be either on a boat or
in a lab. Um, and very quickly realized I love
(09:52):
I love everything to do with biology. I absolutely love
marine biology. And it was actually a little bit more
of marine physics and marine chemistry that I loved because
I find it fascinating looking at big systems of water
and land shifting and and watching how these things interact
with the environment with a son like all those things.
And I'm a data dork and like you can hear
(10:14):
that in the work that I do today that all
this foundation and like analyzing and looking at numbers and
data and patterns is what I took away from that
undergrad degree. But you know, I so I got a
degree abology, I got a dreee in marine sciences, but
I wound up working in a lab and wound up
being the entertainment of the lab. I remember the one
(10:36):
day I came in and everyone's like, oh, okay, curry
go and I was like, wait, what do you mean go?
And they're like teach us about something and I was
like okay, and I didn't like I didn't. I realized
like it very quickly, you know, it did not fit
in and not in like a bad way, but it
just wasn't like I was very contained, it was very quiet,
(10:56):
it wasn't very chatty, and it was fascinating, but it
just wasn't right. So I wound up, you know, peace
announcing Europe for a couple of years, because that's what
you do when you're doing I really had a lot
of you know, great times, a lot of fun worked overseas.
UM came back and oddly enough, just and if you
remember this is gonna date me now, I looked up
(11:18):
the Yellow Pages. Is a ridiculous story. I like feathered
through the Yellow Pages and put my finger on a
museum in Philadelphia, UM, and I did a cold call
of the museum in Philadelphia, and oddly enough, the guy
who answered the phone on my cold call was the
head of HR who was going on a trip to
(11:39):
the location I had just come from. In Europe that
I had lived for two years. So I told him like, oh,
you're gonna love this and check out this. Like I
had traveled all over Europe, so I was like like
a tour guide. And at the end of the conversation,
he's like, oh my god, why did you call? And
it was like an hour and a half in and
what what I said was, you know, I you know,
(12:01):
I love your museum. I love going there and I'd
really like to see what positions you have open. And
he's like, well, I found one for you. He's like
it's education. He's like, man, you can talk and you
can have a great conversation, and you taught me so much.
And that's how I got my interview in a museum
education and now the world was open. I was like, wow,
I do love talking, I do love teaching, I do
(12:22):
love having conversations with people, and I do love learning.
So you know, a great educator is a great learner.
And so that really opened the door to me and
then I dove deep into education. I got my master's
in elementary ed. I worked in a Philadelphia school district
part time. Why I was working full time at the
museum and the at the same time. In two thousand
(12:43):
and three, the Constitutions and Are opened And a few
years after their opening, I was walking through the building
and I had worked with somebody who had worked there
before and said, like, this is an amazing place, but
it it it needs human life. Like there's a great
exhibits and there's great human store ease, but there's not
people teaching in place. And so that opened up the
(13:05):
door for an interview for a programs director at the
Constitution Center. I got in the door and just started
looking at like how kids were using the place, using
the space, and what did they want to learn? So
dove in deep and fifteen years later at the Constitution Center,
I got a doctorate in education and creativity and innovation.
(13:28):
Because we teach in so many different ways. We think teach.
When you say teaching, you think schools, but there's a
million ways people are learning, and there's a million ways
people are teaching, and schools in an unbelievable vital foundation
for that. But how do we build that and how
do we learn in all places, in all spaces. So
I like to think of myself as somebody who experiments
with non traditional education and dives deep into the topic
(13:51):
and looks for ways to make the content accessible for everybody.
And I get lucky enough that I get some of
the best scholars at my disposal to be like no, no no, no,
I don't understand that anymore on that, and it can
be like kind of a bossy teacher, UM. And I
get to work with them and ask all those questions,
but also make sure that my job is to make
(14:12):
sure that the kids get to ask questions, and that
the adult learners get to ask questions, and that their
questions are never ones that they feel bad to ask,
and they get to stop and say, Okay, that's really cool,
but I don't understand that word you just used, so
can you help me define it? So I spent the
last fifteen years diving so deep into the constitution um,
and then how to teach the constitutions. So I think
(14:34):
everybody should have a job that they're constantly learning in
and whatever the it is, if you're learning, you're gonna
have fun with it. So it's a really kind of
cool thing. And now, if you ever go on a
fishing trip with me, I'm really entertaining on a boat.
That's see as your retirement career. You can go back
to marine biology and just keep everyone entertained as like
(14:57):
the boat knowledge disseminator, maybe like a boat tour guide,
Like I'll be on the boat and be like, Okay,
as we go out to the fishing grounds, so we
fish for tuna, let me tell you about that wave
over there. I would book that tour in a New
York minute. I think that would be the best way
to go fishing in the world. This is obviously a
(15:24):
really strange year. And because you know, we are work
with a number of different museums or you know, have
people that we know that work in museums, we've had
a unique perspective to get some of those stories of
how museums are handling it and and what they're doing
to try to cope and still provide kind of the
functionality and the learning or the access to whatever they
(15:45):
present for people despite not being able to open their doors.
How are you guys managing it? You have done, I mean,
you already had robust online learning, but it seems like
everything just kind of went to eleven. Uh. You talk
about just kind of how you guys approached it when
you realize you needed to shift your your gears a
little bit. Since you are closed to the public in
(16:08):
terms of the physical space. Um, and you know what
you're doing right now, because there's some amazing programs that
anybody can be part of. And thanks, I appreciate it,
and so we did. We we very quickly as an organization.
We started with place and then we very quickly expanded
to how do we teach this nation? Because it's there's
(16:30):
national in our title. We need to do our job
right and make sure it's not just about the place.
And millions of people like go through our work every month,
but we're never going to see them in Philadelphia. I mean,
I'd love to see them all in Philadelphia. This is
an amazing city, but as in Philadelphia, and I can
say that. But we started with the Interactive Constitution, and
(16:51):
that was a piece that had been with the constitutions
and since before I was there, but six years ago
we really redefy did and we wanted it to marry
who we are as an organization. We teach about the Constitution. Center,
we teach about the Constitution, and when we teach about
it in a way that brings all perspectives to the table,
so looking at constitutional questions not political questions. So a
(17:16):
constitutional question is like what may the government do? What
powers are in the constitution to allow the government to
do that? So all these things that you see in
your life every day typically come out as questions like
wait a minute, can they do that? That's a great
constitutional question. That's like awesome one, and I think usually
how it comes out of my mouth, I don't know
you can do that, guys, But it's looking at the government.
(17:39):
Can you know, and public schools search a kid's lacker?
Can they search your kids backpack? Can people come into
your home? And why can they come into your home?
If they can, what are the rules around it? And
what's the government? And that's saying what the who can
come into your home? Is looking at the government? So
can the police come into your home? Things like that,
can they search your phone? All those questions can and
(18:00):
the president do that? And executive orders? That's like the
number one question of the last fifteen years, you know,
looking at executive orders? Can they do that? Great questions?
So those are typically constitutional questions. The questions that come
out of your mouth and say like wait, I think
we should do this or should we not do this?
That's typically a policy question or a political question. So
(18:22):
our job was to start, Let's get your foundation right,
Let's get your basement solid. We want a strong structure
under every single American, So start with the Constitution. Let's
bring all perspectives to the table and share what we
agree upon. That's the Interactive Constitution, and it's a great resource.
It's all free, it's online, and it looks at every
(18:43):
single section of the United States Constitution. And we get
the top two scholars on that and say, okay, we're
gonna talk about, say the Fourth Amendment and privacy and
search and seizure topics like that. We get the top
two scholars in that area, and the first thing we
make them do is tell us what they agree upon,
because we sometimes feel like there's a lot we don't
(19:04):
agree upon as Americans, and that's not always true. There's
a lot of common ground. So we asked them to
write a joint explainer, like a joint essay of where
they agree on the Constitution and then where they diverge
as matters of debate. And so we really want people
to understand that there's a lot around the law that
we can coalesce around. But then there's also areas that
(19:26):
haven't been completely filtered through and still debate around and
that's okay, and we can talk about it. So that's
whol we redid and really doubled down six years ago
and then we relaunched it last year. So in the
last month we are the third most visited website for
a museum in the United States because of that Interactive Constitution.
(19:49):
Because people hear things in the news and they go,
wait a minute, how does that work? Whose job is that?
Can they do that? When they look at the Interactive
Constitution and it's the gateway, you know, it's the gateway
into the Constitution. It helps give them a foundation and
then that's where I come in and lure them into more.
You love this so much, now, don't you want to
join a class on it? So all these programs are
(20:13):
we're online a few years ago. So like our classes
that we teach every single week with students in middle school,
in high school and students lifelong learners of all ages.
We started a few years ago, so lucky us, we
were exploring ways to connect classrooms with each others. So
it's called it's called the Scholar Exchange Program or the
(20:35):
Exchange Program, And what we wanted to do is We
wanted to give kids practice talking to each other about
difficult constitutional questions, because if we worry that our adults
can't do it, we need to start making sure that
our kids can do it. And so we started three
years ago connecting classes to classes, exchange exchange of ideas,
exchange of constitution, exchange of dialogue. And that's the best
(20:58):
we can do as an organization and teach the constitution,
look at the constitutional questions, and then give place in
space for discussion and dialogue. That's civil. That when COVID hit,
we had been experimenting with bringing scholars in the classrooms
and we literally turned to switch. We said, why are
we doing this just for classrooms. Let's open this up
(21:20):
and make it public and let's put it online. And
then we also follow really quickly with our town Hall series,
which is an adult program where we have multiple scholars
talking about the issues and adults asking questions. And it's
been really fascinating to see the thousands and thousands of
students join us. And what I love about it is
(21:43):
talk about open doors. We see kids from all over
the country talking to each other. So I have fifth
graders in Idaho talking to fifth graders in Florida. You know,
kids logging in because they are homeschool kid with a
private school student, with a public school student, um pro
Gel schools. They're all in it together. We have younger
kids and older kids in there, and it's fantastic to
(22:05):
really make sure that we're helping kids of all ages
and students of all ages talk to each other about
the Constitution, get their constitutions straight. And that opens up
even more questions and giving them chances to ask those questions,
because sometimes you you want to ask that question, but
you don't have the right person to ask. So we're
gonna supply you with the best scholars and make it
(22:27):
really engaging along the way, and then give you chances
to talk to each other about it, so all are free,
and it really takes that core of constitution conversations and
just opens it broadly across the country. Yeah, and I
feel compelled to point out for our listeners that when
those like sessions are happening, you are there, like taking questions,
(22:48):
parsing those out, and asking them directly to people, so
they're getting real time answers from like levels of like
deep knowledge that most people would never have access to
and I'm always amazed at how you juggle it. But
because it's a lot going on, it's like people talking
(23:08):
and you're kind of directing the discussion, but you're also
monitoring the chat and like taking in the questions. So, uh,
it's quite a thing to see happen there. You go. Um,
it's clearly working. I really do. When you first told me, like, oh, no,
anybody from anywhere can be accessing this session and and
asking questions, I was like, that is amazing. This brings
(23:31):
me to my next question, which is that you have
mentioned that this is the learning that you offer is
for all ages, and how you know you definitely try
to get kids involved in learning early on, but that
you also have adult programs. How do you juggle kind
of trying to figure out the best ways to make
(23:52):
that information accessible, digestible, easy to understand for all ages
because some of your sessions are basically all ages. Yeah,
and that's been like fascinating to watch how this COVID
and just online education is blowing up typical structures that
have been put in the place to segment people by age.
(24:14):
And if you think about it, like I always think
about it necessary and this is like my nerdy education
side coming out, but like schools are set up to
be Okay, you're in this age bracket, you're in this grade,
and you go through life that way, and then you
go into the real world and I don't work with
anybody my age, like nobody's my exact age, Like that's
the only time you ever get that kind of like segmentation.
(24:37):
So this is changing things. So we do we do host.
So one of the things we did is we said, like, okay,
we're going to designate certain times during the week for
certain not age levels, but content levels. So we say
it's a middle school program, you know, Mondays and Wednesday's
at twelve Eastern time. But I want to really like
(25:00):
reiterate that it's it's a it's an entry level time.
So we do get a lot of middle schoolers, but
we also get adults. We get high schoolers because that's
the level they feel they want to be exposed to
at that time. And that's great. So knowing in your
head like kind of like what level middle school is,
you say, Okay, that one's for me at the Mondays
(25:21):
and Wednesdays at two o'clock Eastern time. That's the high
school level. High school college level. And again, the younger
kids that are really advanced are jumping in on that one,
and the adults that are like, I need to freshen up,
but you know, I know a little bit about this,
they're jumping in on that too. So the majority of
students are that age bracket. But it's really open. So
(25:41):
we've been thinking, as an educational institution, how do we
change that terminology so it does isn't a barrier. I'm
not a middle school kid, so this I feel embarrassed
to go to a middle school level. I finally, adults,
especially you know, the active older adults, the seniors, they
don't care. They're like, I'll go to the third grade
one like they right care, but like you know, if
(26:01):
you're seventeen, that might not make you feel good. So
I want everybody to feel good. It's okay, It's like, okay,
let's do you know college level one, college level two,
like entry entry level, you know, advanced level. That's kind
of the way we talk about it. But we have
seen on the Friday session, So Friday at one and
(26:22):
they should never let me name anything just on like
a side funny no, because I just call it the
all in session and they're like thanks, I appreciated, but
it literally was like that was what I was thinking. Okay,
it's Friday at one o'clock, have at it. I don't care.
Whoever wants to come can come. Let's see what we're doing.
That's been fascinating because we are getting all ages. So
(26:43):
we've seen a second grade group of brownies at the
same time that I had an eighty two year old
advanced judge and they're all in the same half an
hour conversations. These are quick, these are fun. We try
to do lots of visuals just court younger learners and
support the language, because sometimes the language can be a barrier.
(27:05):
So how can I, as an educator use imagery and
infographics so it makes you hear a new word, but
now it's clicking because you just understand what it is
through the infographics. So all those tools of like good
teaching or applied Like what I usually say is like,
am I using universal design for learning? How can I
best accommodate all learners of all ages and all levels
(27:29):
in one session? And really think like little House on
the prairie. Okay, I've got now all the tech tools,
but I have all these different ages, so go um,
and I have found that because the students, especially my
younger students, they don't care, they'll ask anything they want,
it helps everybody. So I love the two ends of
the spectrum. So my third graders and my nine year
(27:52):
old are identical actually because they just don't care and
they'll ask anything they want. What they ask maybe different,
but the fact that they are like they're they're so
secure in who they are, they will ask like you
just used a word I don't know. Can you try again?
That was the statement from one of my third graders,
and I was like, Okay, I love you like I.
(28:14):
I wish everyone felt that free because so many of
us would never admit like I don't actually know what
she just said. Um, but that's the way you're gonna
learn the best. And because she asked that, there was
a whole group of people that now learned because she
was able to ask that, Cecilia, she was awesome and
she was like, Bam, I'm going to ask this question.
I love it so much. You have talked a little
(28:35):
bit about the interactive Constitution that you have, but I
would love for you to talk a little bit more
about it because it really is an astonishing piece of
I want to say technology, but it's not even that
because it's technology, but it's also a scholarship and it's
you know, interactive. Cannot be overstated on this, Like you
literally can click through the Constitution and get you know,
(28:57):
little pop ups that will be explainers and it's visual
at the same time that it's a lot of text.
And you mentioned that you guys kind of just redid it. Um,
So if you would talk through kind of what guides
really how you present, like having those two scholars right
their thing to make sure it is easy to navigate
as well as easy to you know, get additional information
(29:20):
on something. It's such an amazing piece of work for
what is a living document. So it's kind of a
weird sort of it's almost like language immersion. You're in
the Constitution when you're using it, which I love. So yeah,
well you talk about kind of how that all became
the marvel that it is. Yeah, I a million in oerations, Um,
(29:42):
So what you know, I think working with great partners.
So we work with American Constitutional Society and the Federalist Society,
so they're really kind of ideologically very different, and so
we worked with them and said give us your best.
So what I learned very quickly on this project when
we first start it was that scholars are like doctors.
(30:03):
They're very uniquely focused in one area. So like you
don't go ask the pediatrists how to fix your heart valve,
like you go to the right doctor. That's how it
is for the scholars to you know, we have scholars
that we work with that our generalists, but they also
have an area of specialty. So to get that, to
get the two top organization saying here's our best scholar
(30:25):
on this gives you this level of credibility that you're
able to bring the best to the table. It was
so many lessons learned along the way, and like how
do we keep it short enough but still give enough
of the content that you feel sound on it. So
having that joint explainer was huge because that's where most
people start. And also how do we make sure we're
(30:48):
not walking people away from the Constitution's actual text but
bringing them closer Like these were all the goals that
we are trying to parse out and figure out as
we went through and then asking these great amazing scholars, Okay,
we need this to be like for students as well,
can you write this at a high school reading level?
(31:09):
And then them coming back and saying absolutely, and then
reading the first essays and saying, oh my god, I
don't think they've ever met a high school kid before.
You're like, oh no, Like, I love that you thought
they'd know these words, So like going back and forth,
but then understanding that at some point this is their
(31:30):
names are signed onto this, so they have to give
you a high enough level but still make it accessible.
What a balance, And well, that's why we think it's
so successful because we've balanced that top scholars working with
great partners, the right people, and then balancing that kind
of in between between great scholarly work but accessible material,
(31:52):
and then laying it out in a way that is
so user friendly that you can, you know, jump into
one section and then go down a rabbit hole and
keep going in that one area and then see what
the point and counterpoint are on these discussions. But I
also love about the next version that we did about
a year ago, as we started layering in all these
(32:13):
other tools that help you again help you understand the words,
help you understand the Constitution, and also help you understand
that it's relevant that it's not just a document written
two hundred and so many years ago, that it is
happening this day, this year, last week. And so that's
what the explainers are great about. Two. It doesn't just
(32:34):
leave you in seven. It says they were talking about seven.
Guess what, we still haven't figured it out yet. Here's
the key and it kind of makes you feel Okay,
You're like, okay, good, we're still working on it. Um.
So we layered the videos, the town caused, the podcast
lesson plans, and all the classes on top of it.
(32:56):
So I kind of think, and this is where I'll
go to my Shrek reference. It's kind of like an
onion that we keep growing. Um. So Ogre's and the
Constitution are kind of like onions that they have many layers. Uh,
this is why I work with kids. I love it
though that I mean, that's a perfect way to think
about it. What has been the most surprising aspect of
(33:26):
this work for you? Like, I'm sure there's been something
where you're like, I did not ever see this coming,
Like every day it was like huh, um, I think
I'm trying to think. So historically, the most surprising aspect
when like it's almost like when I first started and
(33:46):
now because I feel like I'm constantly new UM and
constantly learning. So when I first started UM, I think
the most surprising aspect that I had was the difference
between when people first come to us and when people
leave us. And it's still today the truth. People walk
in with this, you know, they're kind of like, h
(34:08):
it's an old, stuffy document, like all these things, and
they've got this concept that the Constitution is like I
should know it, Like this is almost like a guilt
associated with it, like I should know it, but it's
also like boring. And then within minutes I didn't know that.
Oh my god, that's fascinating. Tell me more. And so
when they leave us, they're like hooked and so they're
(34:30):
like absolutely like oh my god, I love this, and
they're now like they're like they've drank the kool aid
there in the band there with us, and you're like,
so that was the first kind of like moment of
working in the museum that I saw that, and it
was I'll tell you a real quick funny story. We
were at an activity table in the middle of the lobby.
It's like my first few months there and we're doing
(34:52):
something with a group of kids and it's families and
everything is it's like a weekend, and this kid turns
around and he's probably like nine years old and he
looks at he looks at us, and he's like all
the staff, and he looks at his mom and goes,
m and you said this would be boring, And he's
like annoyed at his mother and she looks at the
(35:13):
staff and goes, no, we didn't know. I didn't. Like
it's like wait, like throw the shame. Nine year old
like I love it and I left and we left it.
We're like it's okay, and like, but that's what we
almost want to tell people, like come in, you're gonna
love it here. You're like you're gonna have so much fun.
And then the people who already love it feel like
(35:34):
they found them buddy, like they found like their home.
We have a T shirt for our teachers that we're
producing right now, and it says the Constitution Come nerd
out with us, because like we own that we love
it and we should all be constitutional nerds. Like that
is not a negative that we are. It is our document,
it is our power as we the people. And then
(35:54):
let's come nerd out together. And then the back says
we the people, Um, but no, it's kind of cool.
Thing is again just going back to the fact that
you know, we always make We always think about what
are we hand it, what are we doing, and how
do we make it more engaging, more fun, And so
COVID was a kind of like, Okay, we got lemons,
(36:15):
We're making lemon cello, we're making lemonade, We're making everything
with these lemons. And my favorite part of this is
learning how learners of all ages can come together talk
about a constitutional topic and learn from each other, so
that eight year olds are learning from third graders and
third graders are learning from eight year olds. And it's
(36:35):
not just about our scholars and our educators and our museum,
but that we can create place across the country for
people to come together and break down educational barriers and
knowledge barriers and feel a community and again like it's
your constitution, you found your home, you're here now, and
that we have this now different community in place, in
(36:57):
space and in time. That's really really cool and exciting.
It's so unique. I imagine that this being an election
year with a lot of debate going on on every street, corner,
dinner table, et cetera. That you guys have been really
really slammed. What has that been like for you, like,
just to manage probably all the queries about constitutionality of
(37:19):
various different things. It's awesome. So we have a running
joke that the Constitution hasn't been this talked about since
se seven. So thank you, you know, thank you everything
that's going on. So because now people love it and
this is this is their hook, this is their inn,
and now they're with us, it's been great. The hardest
(37:40):
part for us is to make sure that we give
people time to understand all perspectives and all sides in
the Constitution and then we stay in the constitutional questions.
So sometimes people come to us with a political question
or very one sided and we want them to come
in and we want to lay out the constitution forum
and give them all the perspectives so then they can
(38:02):
go from there and say, Okay, now I get it.
I see all different parts. We're not asking people to
change their minds. We're just asking people to hear the
Constitution and hear the other perspectives that they may have
not heard before, or they might just want to understand
where is the other side coming from. So our job
is to really make sure that we're giving ability to
(38:23):
have civil dialogues, and we don't think they will be unemotional.
I am the most emotional person probably anybody will meet.
Let's mostly associated with super excitement, but it's still an
emotion and I want people to be jazzed about it.
I want people to be excited, but we also want
people to listen, and that's a really hard skill, especially
when your emotion is really high. So when we talk
(38:46):
about the Constitution, we look at it. I always say,
we look at it at the table. We put the
Constitution on the table in the center of all of
us and we talk about the Constitution and that removes
a little bit of the personal and pulls us back
a minute so we can talk about it together and
brings us together as a community. And then from there
we can decide what how do I want to see
(39:06):
and understand and where do I sit with these constitutional debates,
And that's on you, and that's your choice, and your
that's great, have your perspective, but let's all come together
at first together looking at the Constitution as kind of
the tool that unifies and and connects us and we
need those connecting points. So that's been the I think
(39:27):
the struggle at times is people feel like they've lost
connecting points with each other. But we really want to
say the Constitution is that connected point and it it
may not be perfect, and we've we've had to change
it over time, but it's still something that we can
rally upon and say we have power to change. And
how do we find our power and how do we
(39:47):
find our power to protect as well? I love it? Okay,
for my last question, I've said I love it like
thirty two times in this interview. Um, But for my
last question, I would love to hear from you, like,
what the one thing is that you wish everybody knew
or understood about the Constitution that maybe isn't always top
of mind or something that they come to the table with.
(40:08):
It's hard to pick one. You can you can give
multiple answers. There's no problem there. So let me think
for a hot second. So there's so much to teach
about the Constitution, There's so many things to understand about it,
and we talk so much about the document. So we
we love to talk about the Constitution history and the
(40:32):
modern questions, like all those pieces are what we want
to talk about. In value, I would like people to
walk away knowing an understanding four branches of government. So
if we think about the Constitution, most time when you
think about government, you think three branches of government. There's
always those tests that come out every year about we
don't know each branch of government. It's not about memorizing things.
(40:55):
It's about understanding the goals and the responsibilities of each brand.
So when I say four, it also talks about you.
So you know, we want to talk to people about
Article one, and that's Congress. What's Congress, why was it
put together, how has it worked over time, and what's
its job responsibility? And then Article to the presidency and
(41:17):
the executive branch, same deal. Article three the courts, same deal.
We have to understand what their jobs are, how and
why they were set up the way they were, and
then how they have to work together or work in opposition.
And that's okay if they work in opposition at times.
The system was set up to be that way. But
what we forget sometimes is we forget to talk about
(41:40):
the fourth branch, and that's we, the people. We have
a responsibility to ensure that this Constitution works, that it
is not just a written document, but that it is
a document that has value and action as well. So
it's our job to say, hey, Congress, we need you
to do this, we need to not do this, we
needed to do this better presidency, same deal, courts, same deal.
(42:03):
There's that we the people aspect of popular sovereignty that
we sometimes forget to teach. So that gives us all
persons in America agency and responsibility. So we always talk
about what is the job, you know, what are the
what is the task given in the Constitution to that
(42:23):
part of the government, But what's the duty, like, what
is the duty of that? And so what is our
duty as citizens? And it's not just about saying what's wrong,
but it's also supporting and saying what's working. And so
that's two really sides of the coin. And we can't
think of things in just everything is being wrong or great.
(42:44):
We have to really look at the whole spectrum of
these pieces. And we have a tendency in American history
to either make people heroes or make people villains, and
the reality of it is there's a lot of in between,
and we need to look at all of that. So
people think about the popular sovereignty aspect, think about we
the people, and let's go live in the gray because
most of our life is gray and we need to
(43:06):
really parse out those pieces as well beautifully put uh, Curry,
where is the best place for people to go to
find the National Constitution Center online and once this pandemic
is over in person, uh, and get their their myths
on that beautiful interactive constitution. So best place to go
(43:26):
is Constitution Center dot org. You can also google Interactive
constitution and find the National Constitution Center. It's it pops
up really quickly, which is great. But go to Constitution
Center dot org. If you're ever in Philadelphia, please visit
us on Independence Mall. We are on the most historic
square mile in America. So hey, you heard that Boston,
(43:47):
you heard that Colonel Williamsburg. Philly win. Just like if
we were in person, I you know, like we win.
We own it. So many great things about Philadelphia, but
this dork mile and we're on it. So constitutions and
er dot org. And remember of what we do at
the center is free. So we work really hard to
(44:08):
ensure that our materials have no barriers, and that sometimes
paid walls are huge barriers for people, so it's free,
join it, share it, follow us on Twitter, follow us
on Facebook. We'd love to see you guys there. Um
and if you need anything education at Constitution Center dot org.
Educators are here to help and constitutions and our educators
(44:30):
love their jobs, so whatever you need, let us know.
So yes, you two can be talking to both second
graders and ninety year olds at the same time about
the Constitution. Curry, I cannot thank you enough. This has
been such a delightful way to spend this hour. Thank
you so much. It's great to be here, and thank
you so much because your class and so just the
listeners know that you did a class with us and
(44:52):
it was on the Executive Branch, the Presidency and the
White House, and it's absolutely one of my favorite classes
because as I love the idea of talking about the Constitution,
talking about our history in America, and talking about police
because police matters and it's how we rally around our
identity of who we are. So thank you so much
(45:12):
for adding so much depth of knowledge to that class.
And I know our President Jeff Rosen his comment was
that was amazing. I'm going to hear more so, thank
you so much. I'm so glad. It was my absolute
pleasure and delight, and you made it super easy. I
was very worried because I never think of myself as
an expert unreally anything historical. I'm very enthusiastic, but I
(45:35):
don't always retain things. So you made it super easy
and fun and like an absolute delight for me. So
thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. I have
a great one. This was so much fun YEA for
me as well. I am absolutely not exaggerating when I
say that every time I have an interaction with Curry,
it legitimately makes you want to study the Constitution. She
(45:58):
makes the fact that it's a liveing documents so apparent
that you just want to go engage with it. So
my deepest thanks to her for coming on the show.
I hope everyone else that listens feels the same way.
Once again, if you want to check out the work
that Curry and the National Constitution Center do, including that
interactive Constitution that they talked about, visit Constitution Center dot org.
(46:23):
Do you also have a little listener mail? I do?
I do. This is from our listener Laura, who writes
a Dear Holly and Tracy. I've been listening to you
for about three years, but I am a podcast nerd,
and I must start a new podcast from the first
episode and then binge as much as I can. I
am now officially caught up. I listened in the car
at work, while cooking, etcetera. So sometimes ten hours a
(46:45):
day of listening. That's a lot. Uh. There have been
many times when I have wanted to write to say
well done or ask for clarification, but then remember that
I was so far behind that you might have thought
me crazy for asking questions that were from podcast years ago. Now,
all that I'm caught up, I feel I can finally
write you to say thank you. As an aside, I
appreciate that I would never think anyone was crazy for
(47:07):
asking about old episodes. But it gets harder and harder
the farther back you go for Tracy and I to
recall things, and they're from other hosts. I'm like, I
have no idea, yeah exactly. My daughter has recently graduated
with honors from a local university with a history major,
and it has been so nice to be able to
have things to discuss with her. I did not grow
(47:28):
up laking history but find that now that I am older,
I can't get enough of it. You have definitely been
part of that journey. I think my favorite part of
the podcasts are when you genuinely laugh at yourselves or
at circumstances. When I first started listening, I would hear
your voices announcing trips or other events, but you weren't
the voice yet of the podcast, so it was a
delight for me to finally catch up and put your
personalities with the voices. When I heard that you got
(47:50):
hate mail, I just about cried for you. You two
are delightful and make me smile on the daily. And Holly,
when you mentioned Coach McGurk a few episodes ago, I
nearly wanted to jump through the speaker and give you
a high five. But you know, COVID, not many of
my friends understand my obsession with that show. I feel
like we're kindred spirits about many things. As a Canadian,
I especially love when you do some of our history
(48:10):
and history from other parts of the world. The episodes
that have highlighted marginalized people have opened my eyes even
more than they were before, and I look forward to
learning more. Knowledge is power, and it is through said
knowledge that change can come anyway in this strange time.
I'm glad to hear you are both staying well. It's
almost comforting to know that the whole world is going
through the same thing at the same time. Thank you
(48:31):
both for all you do. I have no idea what
I'm going to do now that I don't have multiple
episodes to listen to every day. Laura, this is such
a lovely note one. Of course, anytime somebody's gonna shout
out coach McGurk, I want to read that letter for
those of you who don't know. That is from UH,
an older Lauren Bouchard series long before Bob's Burger's called
Home Movies, which is one of the most charming things
(48:52):
ever put on a television screen in my opinion. UM,
You're so incredibly sweet, and I really loved hearing all
of this, and I'm so excited that your your daughter
studies history. UM. I will be curious keep us updated
on what she does with that if she ends up
working in a history field, because I always love to
hear those. It seemed like a good match for this
(49:12):
episode where I talked to someone that works with history
every day. Although did not think that that was going
to be their life's path initially. So if you would
like to write to us and share the ways you
connect to history or anything else, you can do that
at History Podcast at i heeart radio dot com. You
can also find us on social media as Missed in History.
You can also subscribe to this podcast. That's easy as pie.
(49:33):
You can do it on the I heart radio app,
at Apple podcast or wherever it is you listen. Stuff
you Missed in History Class is a production of I
heart Radio. For more podcasts from I heart Radio, visit
the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows.
Stuff You Missed in History Class News
Hosts And Creators
Tracy V. Wilson
Holly Frey
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