March 8, 2017 • 36 mins
Holly interviews Michael Bornstein and his daughter Debbie Bornstein Holinstat about their book "Survivors Club." The book chronicles the story of Michael's family during the Holocaust, and how Michael survived at Auschwitz.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to steph you missed in history class from how
Stuff Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast.
I'm Holly Fry and I'm Tracy V. Wilson. And on
today's podcast we have an interview, this time with two people,
uh Michael Bornstein and his daughter, Debbie Bornstein, Hollands dot And.
(00:24):
Michael Bornstein is an Auschwitz survivor. He lived as a
child in the camp for seven months, which is astonishing
in and of itself, as most children lasted only two
weeks there. He and his daughter have written an account
of his childhood, starting with his family and Nazi occupied Poland.
Michael was born in Jarkie, Poland when it was considered
(00:46):
an open Jewish ghetto under German occupation, and the Bornstein
family story is incredible. Michael and many of his relatives
survived through unbelievable instances of luck and happenstance, although his
father and his brother were murdered at Auschwitz. And the
book that shares this narrative is called Survivors Club. And
Michael and Debbie were gracious enough to talk to me
(01:08):
about their family's history as well as the collaborative process
in writing this book. One thing that's truly lovely about
this book is that it's uh, in a lot of ways,
truly uplifting. It's obviously very dark and very serious in
its subject matter, but at the same time as a
story that is overall there's a lot of positivity in there. So,
(01:31):
without further ado, let's get to the interview. We are
extraordinarily fortunate today on the show because we have as
guests Michael Bornstein and Debbie Bornstein Holland Stat his daughter,
who co wrote a book titled Survivors Club, which is
(01:52):
about Michael's experience as a child in Auschwitz. Uh. First,
you both explain why you decided to tell this story
in the preface, but would you also share that here
with our listeners. I have wanted to write this story
for a very long time, probably since I was in
my twenties years now, and my dad really wasn't ready
(02:13):
to talk. And I think that a series of things
finally happened. UM. One is that survivors, older survivors aren't
here anymore to talk, and I know that my dad
um realized that that left him up at that UM.
(02:33):
The grandkids were a big part of the reason my
dad has eleven grandkids. Three of those kids are mine.
In gard Me. Three of those kids are mine, and
they are quite pushy, and they wanted to hear their
papa tell them stories. They wanted to know what he
had been through, and they wanted to learn about the Holocaust,
not through books, but through his stories. So I think
that helped pressure him into it. And UM, I think
(02:57):
given everything that's going on in the political world right now, UM,
as it turns out, there's never been a better time
for him to have chosen to do this. I just
want to emphasize that, first of all, I'm very proud
to be a US citizen, but we don't want to
forget what happened in history. And uh, we have some
(03:20):
things going on like the old right uh uh, and
that's one of the things that gave us inspiration. Uh
his question about Moslim's black platinos and other minorities, and
I think that all has something to do with what
(03:40):
happened to me and the discrimination that we had, uh,
not just in Auschwitz but after the war, uh, and
some in the US. And Michael, you actually first became
aware of footage of yourself as a young boy at
the camp while you were completely on expectedly watching a
(04:01):
movie with your wife. What was that moment like, Well,
it was unusual. We had some friends. We watched the movie,
and uh we saw the video of myself close up
of my tattoo, and I just couldn't believe it because
(04:22):
I hadn't seen that video before. And uh, I was very,
very surprised. And that's basically is so. Right after he
viewed it, he called the director in Hollywood of the
movie The Chosen and explained, you know that was video
(04:44):
of me. Oh my gosh, you know where did that
come from? That? That was the video of me at Liberation?
And the director said, well, what do you want? And
my dad joked, oh, I want a starring role in
your next movie, and the man hung up on him.
My father really just wanted to see if we could
somehow get a clip of it. So I bought a
(05:04):
movie camera and went into the theater and the movie
director was kind of enough to let me take a
picture of that. Yeah, he sat with his big home
movie camera in the back of the theater in Indianapolis
Um and they allowed him to film the screen just
so that we would have that footage because it was
long before the era of googling for video on YouTube,
(05:28):
so it was the only way to access that. So
that was something we treasured for a long time, having
this VHS tape of that liberation footage. Oh my goodness,
that's an amazing story. And I know that as you
put this whole book together, you interviewed a lot of
relatives to piece the narrative together. Was there ever reluctance
on the part of those who had been through this
(05:50):
ordeal to revisit those times. No, I would say, we
are fortunate that there are some people live. For example,
Marvin Svorowski, who's about eighty six eighty seven, and uh,
he told us some stories and some things I hadn't
(06:11):
known at all about my father being president of the
unon Rod and so he talked about his experiences. We went,
we were in Israel. We went to Yatva Sham, a
Jewish museum, and they were very helpful and showed documents
(06:34):
with my tattoo on it. That one of the reasons
one of the miracles that I survived is that I
was very sick. The Nazis had a death march because
they knew they were losing the war and they wanted
to get rid of any remnants of around. But my mother,
my grandmother and I UH managed to get into what
(06:58):
quote unquote was the emory and we hit there basically
while the Nazis went away. We would have surely died
in that death mark. Otherwise, Marvin's Browsky, who my father
mentioned UM, was incredibly generous with his time and with
(07:19):
his stories. He lived next door to my family, my
dad's relatives and my father UH in Jarkie, Poland, and
he says that he knew our family almost as well
as he knew his own. They were almost like family.
And while Marvin was very generous with his stories, there
were times where he was reluctant because he experienced so
(07:40):
much firsthand. And one story in particular that he initially
did not want to tell me and finally started and
stopped and finally decided to share with me is that
UM when he was about fourteen years old, he was
forced into labor in the ghetto and he was supposed
to report for work in the morning and he was
very sickly that he had a fever. He doesn't know,
(08:02):
but he said he was just too sick to get
out of bed, and he stayed in bed and the
um he woke up to a pillow over his space.
Nazi guards had come and they put a pillow over
his face. They didn't kill him. Then they dragged him
to um a jail and they sentenced him to death
for missing his labor assignment. Uh. They were one by
(08:24):
one taking people out of the jail shortly after that
and killing them. And Marvin said that the jail doors
opened at one point and there was my grandfather, my
dad's father. He had bribed the guards to let him out.
Um he had we learned Um. We learned that he
had set up a system of bribery and collected this
(08:46):
big pot of money and wherever possible was saving lives
and um making conditions more bearable in the ghetto. And
that was just incredible to learn, an incredible piece of
information to share with my dad because he he doesn't
remember his father and he can only know about him
through these kinds of stories. So it was really amazing
(09:07):
moment to to hear this. That was one of the
biggest things that we learned about writing the book is
information about my father. He was president of the un ROD,
which basically means working together with the Nazis. And the
Jewish people, and uh when he found out what was
(09:29):
going on, he tried to save as many people as
he possibly could by either having them up go underground,
or bribing the Nazis or whatever was necessary to get
things done. Just to give you a little bit of
(09:54):
context about what Michael and Debbie were talking about, their
the uton rod were Jewish councils it up of citizens
of an occupied zone that the Nazis established to service
go betweens between the community there and the German officers
so that they could ensure that Nazi orders were being followed.
And Michael's father was head of the un rot in Jaqui,
(10:14):
and he used that position to help as many people
as he possibly could. We're going to pause here for
a brief sponsor break, and then we will continue our
conversation with Michael and Debbie in the next segment. Michael
talks about his parents and the sacrifices that they made,
(10:35):
and he and Debbie talk about how that background really
informs his life as a parent. I wonder, Michael, as
you had children of your own, did that affect your
thoughts about both of your parents and what they did
to try to protect you. Yes, it certainly has effect
(11:00):
with me. I'm very proud that my father uh was
was able to save people. Uh it affected me. My
mother gave us information about that survival. She uh uh
(11:21):
I was four years old at the time, and for
a while she was a Nouschwitz and she came into
the children's bung. She was beaten over the head. She
shared some of the food with me because the older
children were starving too, and they were able to take
my food away. So she gave me some of her bread,
(11:44):
some of her suit, which smelled terribly. Had to close
your nose to eat it. But it basically saved my
life then. And as a father, I can tell you.
As a daughter, um, I can tell you that. Um.
People ask me all the time, was your father affected?
Did he have depression? You know? How is he affected
(12:06):
by this? And he is an overwhelmingly positive man and
he created an incredibly positive life because of that optimistic
attitude he's always had. And he was just a great
everyday soccer dad. I never really thought about him so
much being a Holocaust survivor, but I see now that
whether he learned it, or whether he inherited it, or
(12:27):
or what happened, I can say that, UM, he is
as protective of us as my grandmother was of him
in Auschwitz. Um he puts his family first. He puts
his kids first, and his now his grandkids first. And UM,
I don't know whether he learned that from all the
sacrifices he saw his mother make for him, or whether
(12:49):
that's just who he is because he inherited it from
his parents. But I can tell you that, UM, he
is an incredibly positive and wonderful kind of a dad
and grandpa. I can also tell you that Debbie was
on vacation after she graduated college and she was going
to go to Auschwitz concentration camp, and I beg her
(13:11):
not to go, because I really don't like to see
my kids see the horrors. Uh and uh, And she
listened to me and didn't go to Housewitz. At the time,
he didn't really tried to put us in a bubble
and protect us. But I'm really proud of him that
he recognizes now how important it is to talk UM.
(13:33):
For so many reasons. For us, for the kids, it
was important to know these stories. And I think for
the country, especially now, and for the world, it's important
to share them because as soon as we forget, you know,
history repeats absolutely. I have to wonder, Debbie, what the
experience of working on this project what you're with your
father was like for you. Did it change your relationship?
(13:55):
My dad and I were always close. He's close with
all four of us kids, UM, but certainly, um, we
are incredibly close. Now I have a whole news respect
for my dad. You know, growing up, we would make
fun of him because he, um could never leave a
morsel of food on on a plate, and he was
very careful with money. I mean, I can remember going
(14:17):
on vacations where we all had to you know, hide
and to walk into hotel room separately and hide so
we could save money and share one room with our
big family. And we never got our own meals as kids.
We always had to share them at restaurants because you know,
it wasn't because my father couldn't afford it, because he
was always saving just in case, you know, in the
back of his mind is optimistic because he was he
(14:37):
always had some anxiety, some nerves about you know, what
he had been through and making sure that, um, you know,
his family was always protected. And now I think I
completely understand where he's coming from. I completely understand and
have so much respect for the fact that every decision
he made he always did with his kids int us
(15:00):
and with his family's interests UM in mind. And I
have incredible, incredible respect for him for finally deciding to
speak out because it wasn't easy. I UM. I know
that he's even nervous UM now sometimes about becoming a
target UM for anti you know, anti semites um and deniers,
(15:24):
and it took a lot of courage to step up
and and talk publicly. So I have an enormous amount
of respect for him. Um. I always did, but especially now.
I just want to mention that is a fantastic writer
and I just amazed she was a She was a
(15:46):
terrific poet and we have some of her poetry enough
on our wall. But she's done an absolutely great job.
But you're right, I one of the things that mother
taught me is gom zay. Yeah for this too. Shell
passed and we tried to be optimistic that things will
(16:09):
go better, and it certainly has. With Debby's book, We've
gotten amazing response and we're very, very happy in what
she did. And we didn't know if anybody would care.
Seventy two years after the war. Um, seventy two years
after liberation, we didn't know if anybody cared to keep
hearing more of these stories. And the response has been
(16:31):
so incredible, and um, it's very comforting. It's been a
big reassurance to me, but of course to my dad. Uh. Yeah,
I understand why the response has been incredible. The book
is is really lovely. The way you have laid out
the narrative is so engaging. I can't imagine people not
just completely devouring it in a short period of time,
(16:53):
because it's impossible to put down. One of the lines
that really stood out to me in the book was
where we're talking about being booked into Auschwitz, and the
line is it takes about sixty minutes to adjust and
to accept that everything has just been stolen from you,
even your name. And what that made me wonder is
how long it took you, Michael, to adjust the opposite
(17:17):
way to the idea that the camp had been liberated
and you were not a number but you were Michael Again,
if if I heard the question correctly, After we were liberated,
my mother was in Austria and the labor camp and
my grandmother, uh, and I got out of the concentration camp,
(17:38):
and we have a picture of carrying me out of
the camp. But just for your information, Uh, we came
back to the town where I was born to The
town is called Jarki in Poland, and the house was
occupied by Polish people and we couldn't get in. So
my grandmother and I me up and her up in
(18:02):
a chicken poop and that's how we lived. And uh,
my mother came back from Austria. She found us in
the town of Sharkey, and uh we were able to
go back. She was appalled at the conditions that we
were living, and not that they weren't better than Auschwitz,
(18:23):
but this was after the war, so thanks changed after that.
One of the things I found really fascinating about this
story is that the way the book has laid out,
the narrative of your time in Auschwitz ends about halfway through,
and the rest is really about your family, your surviving family,
recovering after having managed to survive all of this, And
(18:46):
was there a conscious choice to structure it that way.
You've already talked so much about positivity and how important
that is, but that coming back together of the remaining
family is so moving, and I wonder if you purposely
gave that a little more weight. It's called Survivor's Club
for a reason. This isn't just my dad's story. This
is his entire family story. One of the pieces that
(19:09):
I've always found so remarkable is that my grandma had
six brothers and sisters, so it was a family of
seven siblings. They all made different decisions during the war,
you know, someone into hiding. One was in Warsaw and
ended up in the Warsaw Uprising. One escaped Warsaw and
um ended up being saved by Tuni Suki haara Um
and escaping to Japan. Uh. My dad and his parents
(19:34):
stayed in Jarki and then ended up an Auschwitz. And
yet after the war, one by one they all came home.
Zarki was a town of thirty four Jews before the war,
and about twenty seven came back to Zarki, and most
of them were my dad's family. So it would have
been a mistake, I think, to focus just on Auschwitz
(19:56):
or just my dad's story, because it's the entire store,
it's the entire family story, and it's each piece is
so remarkable, and when you put them all together, it's
really unbelievable. UM, and I just I thought it was
important to make sure we included that my dad was
very close to with aunts and uncles, and as you read, UM,
(20:17):
when he came to New York, they came to his rescue. Dad.
You want to talk about that a little bit, Uh, yes, Uh.
First of all, I'll mention to you that after the war,
my mother took me to Germany. I was basically very skinny,
skeen and bone. I didn't have hair on my head,
(20:37):
and the children bullied me. And it was difficult in
Germany after the war. But then we came back to
the United States and First High US, a Jewish organization,
put me up because we went on a U S destroyer.
(20:58):
We came to the US on a US destroyer. I
think it's called the Steward. And I was throwing up
for seven days and seven nights because of uh the
waves and so on and see sickness, and so First
Highest put me up. I had a high fever and
almost didn't get into the United because UH naturalization people
(21:22):
didn't want to allow six people to come into the US.
But between my mother and I we managed to come in. Uh.
My one uncle put us up in Brooklyn in his
dining room, and so we managed to be there and
uh and its goes on and on like that, but
(21:45):
they all stayed, you know. They all looked out for
each other in different ways. My aunt Ola ended up
hiring my grandmother to work in her corset shop, um
Agnes Malone in New York, and so she was able
to make money that way when they could. Ever, everybody
looked out for each other. They were a rare, unique,
um miraculous club of survivors. Yeah. And I worked in
(22:10):
a drug store on ninety sixth Street in Madison Avenue
for fifty cents an hour, and uh that's how I
inherited my love for pharmacy. Went on to uh become
a chamber made buss boy waiter, head waiter. And the
(22:30):
cat skills H got Fordham was wonderful because, uh, when
I was ready to start college, Fordham University uh didn't
have any dorms and my mother remarried and moved to Havana, Cuba,
and I didn't have a place to stay again, and
Fordham put me up in uh there uh basically yeah,
(22:58):
infirmary whatever it was, and uh uh and with a
big eighth foot across in front of my bed, and
they were absolutely wonderful, gave me a fellowship and became
a pharmacist, and then I went on uh to the
University of Iowa, where I received a PhD in pharmaceutics
(23:22):
in analytical chemistry. And uh, probably the more important thing
is I met my wife, Judy there and we've been
married for almost fifty years. So so that's about it.
So Michael spoke briefly in the last segment about how
(23:45):
seasick he had been while crossing the Atlantic, and in
the book there is this story about how he and
his mother had to convince officials that he wasn't bringing
a contagious disease into the country in order to get
through immigration processing once they reached the United States. It
also speaks volumes that both Michael and Debbie are so
quick to credit every kindness that helped Michael along the
(24:07):
way as he built his life and pursued an education
here in the United States. And we're going to hear
more from them, but first we are going to pause
for a word from one of our fantastic sponsors. So
in our final segment of this interview, Michael and Debbie
share their perspectives on these sort of just insane circumstances
(24:31):
and very fortunate circumstances that enabled so many of their
family to survive. And Michael also shares his wisdom on
enduring difficult times and managing to maintain a positive outlook.
There were both, for you, Michael, and so many survivors
(24:53):
in your family, just innumerable moments where things had gone
even slightly differently, Uh, they would not have survived. So
when you think about all of those minute decisions and
moments that ultimately enabled you to stay alive until the
Soviets liberated the camp, what goes through your mind when
you think about how many things had to fall into
(25:14):
place for your ultimate survival. Yes, there are a lot
of things, starting with my father being president of the
unon rout and saving a lot of lives, and then
the situation in Outfits at the end, And really I
(25:36):
think it's just stab what you call it a miracle?
Would you call it miracles? How would you describe it miracles?
I guess huh, Yes, I would definitely describe it as
a miracle and a lot of miracles because again in
the United States, being uh able to find foredom and
then Iowa, and things go on and on. But the
(26:00):
biggest verycle, my kids and eleven grandchildren, and they're extremely
supportive and worked together. My grandson Jake was had a
Mitzva charity project uh and talking about the Holocaust, and
he had me involved. And that's one of the reasons
(26:21):
we got involved with the book, because he wanted to
share uh my experiences with Sinnagogue and other places. And
you returned to Auschwitz for the first time in two
thousand one. That had to have been quite an experience.
What was that like for you? Well, it was an
(26:43):
experience of probably the biggest thing was the anticipation of
going back to Auschwitz. And we saw the children's bunk,
and we saw the bunk there. We went to Burton
Now where we saw a small than and you know,
and I keep thinking back about the smell uh that
(27:07):
I think I experienced the Auschwitz, the marching boots and
uh it was difficult, but we worked through it and survived.
And again what I said, dan zay Avor, uh this
two show passed. Uh So. And the other thing I
(27:29):
won't mentioned to you about the h experience is my
mother went back to the house where we lived in Jakie, Poland,
and even though she couldn't get into the house, she
went to the backyard at night and she dug with
her hands to try to find the jewels and money
(27:54):
and personal belongings that they my father and my mother
did in the backyard. The only thing that we found
was a kiddish cup, a cup that you made blessings
over at different celebrations. And that cup has had a
lot of meanings for us. It's been at our wedding,
(28:20):
our children's at birth, the brisk and u and wedding
children's weddings. So we're very proud to to have that
kiddish cup. You magically got to my next question already.
I was going to ask you about that. What to
(28:42):
either of you is really the thing that you hope
people who read the book take away from it above
all else, well, I would say club all else. Number
one is come say or to be optimistic when things
are dead. I know it. In Germany, my mother after
(29:05):
bullying and so on, but people, uh townspeople in Germany,
children in Germany, they bullied me that I was a
Jew and called me you. Then my mother finally put
me in to a gymnasia debrit to Gammannia Hebrew Gymnasium
of Germany, and there were many other children there that
(29:30):
didn't have any family, It didn't have any optimism, jumped
out of windows. And so from that standpoint, it uh
if we learned to survive and succeed thanks to my
mother and and myself. And basically the one thing that
(29:54):
I learned is to be accepting of other people. And
we mentioned before the alt Right is there and they
they have some swasti as being inscribed and people being
(30:14):
called to or other blacks names and latinos since other minorities,
and I think it's important for people to learn to
be uh cognizant and be considerate of other minorities, other
religions and and backgrounds. Yeah, and for me at this
(30:37):
at this moment in time, I feel like it's also
important just to take away the fact that to take
away from the book the fact that UM, when bigotry
and um discrimination goes unchecked and when power goes unchecked,
this is what can happen. I have always wondered why
(30:58):
it took my dad seventy two years to finally open up,
and I've regretted that I didn't push harder earlier to
get him to answer these questions, or to get all
the answers from my grandmother when she was here. And
now it seems like the timing has almost faded that
this book should come out now. Um it seems like, um,
(31:19):
the perfect time to remind the world what happens when
bikeotry goes unchecked. My deepest, deepest thanks to Michael Bornstein
and Debbie Bornstein Holland stop for spending time with me
(31:40):
and sharing this really important piece of history. The book
is called Survivors Club, and it's available now. It's written
at a reading level suitable for younger history buffs, but
Holly has read it and found it a good read
for adults. Also. Yeah, Debbie did most of the writing
for it after she and her father had collected this
(32:00):
information and did interviews with relatives. And she's a really
good writer. She has a news background, so she's able
to convey information very clearly. Uh, it's a really good read.
I had a hard time putting it down. Actually, Survivors Club,
the true story of a very young prisoner of Auschwitz,
is available, as we said, wherever books are sold. You
can learn more about the book and if you want.
(32:21):
They're also doing some speaking engagements, so you can check
out their speaking schedule at Survivors club book dot com.
Do you have some listener mail to close us out today?
I do, But first I'm gonna talk about podcasts. Oh yeah,
we know, if you're listening to this, you listen to podcasts.
But you probably know somebody that is not listening to
podcasts yet. Maybe they haven't figured out exactly what a
(32:42):
podcast is. I know there are people in my family.
I'm still explaining it to um. But uh, surely you
have some podcasts that you love, not necessarily ours, that
might be perfect for them. Like, Uh, one of the
ones that I'm absolutely in love with and has been
I think it was actually my first podcast is Star
Talk with Neil de grass Tyson. I love it. It's
(33:03):
funny and it's informative, and it talks about science and
culture and it's really wonderful. There are so many people
that I recommend that too. There's probably some podcasts that
you listen to that is exactly perfect to get that
person that you haven't convinced that podcast is the right
thing for them yet to listen to. So do that
share your love of podcasts. You're opening up a who
new world of information for people, and when you do it,
(33:24):
you can also post on social media about it using
the hashtag tripod, which is tried t r y p
o D, so that you can let other people know
what you're recommending to your friends and family, UH and
to sort of, you know, make podcasts more available and
more accessible for everyone. Our listener mail is from an
artist named Claire Wildwood. She uses that on all of
(33:45):
her social media. Normally we don't give last names, but
since she also sent her card and it includes that,
I figured I would say that as well. She writes,
Dear Holly and Tracy. First of all, happy Valentine's Day,
because we got a Valentine card which I'll describe in
a moment. She says, thank you so much for the
truly wonderful podcast. I'm an illustrator and I love listening
to the podcast while sketching and painting. I especially love
any episode about fashion history. This card I designed brought
(34:08):
to mind the fabulous episode on Roosevelt dam. I love
what you ladies do, and thanks again. She sent us
this beautiful card that she designed, which is a woman
in UH eighteenth century Rococo gear, says the elam Valentine,
which is will you be My Valentine? It's beautiful. It
is black and white with red accents. Uh, and it's
absolutely gorgeous. It is another thing I have to post
(34:29):
a picture of. So thank you, so much, Claire again.
Her name is Claire Wildwood. If you want to look
her up online and see some of her beautiful art,
she's at Claire Wildwood dot com. UH. If you would
like to write to us, you can do so at
History Podcast at how stuff Works. You can also find
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(34:50):
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(36:01):
The SI
Welcome to steph you missed in history class from how
Stuff Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast.
I'm Holly Fry and I'm Tracy V. Wilson. And on
today's podcast we have an interview, this time with two people,
uh Michael Bornstein and his daughter, Debbie Bornstein, Hollands dot And.
(00:24):
Michael Bornstein is an Auschwitz survivor. He lived as a
child in the camp for seven months, which is astonishing
in and of itself, as most children lasted only two
weeks there. He and his daughter have written an account
of his childhood, starting with his family and Nazi occupied Poland.
Michael was born in Jarkie, Poland when it was considered
(00:46):
an open Jewish ghetto under German occupation, and the Bornstein
family story is incredible. Michael and many of his relatives
survived through unbelievable instances of luck and happenstance, although his
father and his brother were murdered at Auschwitz. And the
book that shares this narrative is called Survivors Club. And
Michael and Debbie were gracious enough to talk to me
(01:08):
about their family's history as well as the collaborative process
in writing this book. One thing that's truly lovely about
this book is that it's uh, in a lot of ways,
truly uplifting. It's obviously very dark and very serious in
its subject matter, but at the same time as a
story that is overall there's a lot of positivity in there. So,
(01:31):
without further ado, let's get to the interview. We are
extraordinarily fortunate today on the show because we have as
guests Michael Bornstein and Debbie Bornstein Holland Stat his daughter,
who co wrote a book titled Survivors Club, which is
(01:52):
about Michael's experience as a child in Auschwitz. Uh. First,
you both explain why you decided to tell this story
in the preface, but would you also share that here
with our listeners. I have wanted to write this story
for a very long time, probably since I was in
my twenties years now, and my dad really wasn't ready
(02:13):
to talk. And I think that a series of things
finally happened. UM. One is that survivors, older survivors aren't
here anymore to talk, and I know that my dad
um realized that that left him up at that UM.
(02:33):
The grandkids were a big part of the reason my
dad has eleven grandkids. Three of those kids are mine.
In gard Me. Three of those kids are mine, and
they are quite pushy, and they wanted to hear their
papa tell them stories. They wanted to know what he
had been through, and they wanted to learn about the Holocaust,
not through books, but through his stories. So I think
that helped pressure him into it. And UM, I think
(02:57):
given everything that's going on in the political world right now, UM,
as it turns out, there's never been a better time
for him to have chosen to do this. I just
want to emphasize that, first of all, I'm very proud
to be a US citizen, but we don't want to
forget what happened in history. And uh, we have some
(03:20):
things going on like the old right uh uh, and
that's one of the things that gave us inspiration. Uh
his question about Moslim's black platinos and other minorities, and
I think that all has something to do with what
(03:40):
happened to me and the discrimination that we had, uh,
not just in Auschwitz but after the war, uh, and
some in the US. And Michael, you actually first became
aware of footage of yourself as a young boy at
the camp while you were completely on expectedly watching a
(04:01):
movie with your wife. What was that moment like, Well,
it was unusual. We had some friends. We watched the movie,
and uh we saw the video of myself close up
of my tattoo, and I just couldn't believe it because
(04:22):
I hadn't seen that video before. And uh, I was very,
very surprised. And that's basically is so. Right after he
viewed it, he called the director in Hollywood of the
movie The Chosen and explained, you know that was video
(04:44):
of me. Oh my gosh, you know where did that
come from? That? That was the video of me at Liberation?
And the director said, well, what do you want? And
my dad joked, oh, I want a starring role in
your next movie, and the man hung up on him.
My father really just wanted to see if we could
somehow get a clip of it. So I bought a
(05:04):
movie camera and went into the theater and the movie
director was kind of enough to let me take a
picture of that. Yeah, he sat with his big home
movie camera in the back of the theater in Indianapolis
Um and they allowed him to film the screen just
so that we would have that footage because it was
long before the era of googling for video on YouTube,
(05:28):
so it was the only way to access that. So
that was something we treasured for a long time, having
this VHS tape of that liberation footage. Oh my goodness,
that's an amazing story. And I know that as you
put this whole book together, you interviewed a lot of
relatives to piece the narrative together. Was there ever reluctance
on the part of those who had been through this
(05:50):
ordeal to revisit those times. No, I would say, we
are fortunate that there are some people live. For example,
Marvin Svorowski, who's about eighty six eighty seven, and uh,
he told us some stories and some things I hadn't
(06:11):
known at all about my father being president of the
unon Rod and so he talked about his experiences. We went,
we were in Israel. We went to Yatva Sham, a
Jewish museum, and they were very helpful and showed documents
(06:34):
with my tattoo on it. That one of the reasons
one of the miracles that I survived is that I
was very sick. The Nazis had a death march because
they knew they were losing the war and they wanted
to get rid of any remnants of around. But my mother,
my grandmother and I UH managed to get into what
(06:58):
quote unquote was the emory and we hit there basically
while the Nazis went away. We would have surely died
in that death mark. Otherwise, Marvin's Browsky, who my father
mentioned UM, was incredibly generous with his time and with
(07:19):
his stories. He lived next door to my family, my
dad's relatives and my father UH in Jarkie, Poland, and
he says that he knew our family almost as well
as he knew his own. They were almost like family.
And while Marvin was very generous with his stories, there
were times where he was reluctant because he experienced so
(07:40):
much firsthand. And one story in particular that he initially
did not want to tell me and finally started and
stopped and finally decided to share with me is that
UM when he was about fourteen years old, he was
forced into labor in the ghetto and he was supposed
to report for work in the morning and he was
very sickly that he had a fever. He doesn't know,
(08:02):
but he said he was just too sick to get
out of bed, and he stayed in bed and the
um he woke up to a pillow over his space.
Nazi guards had come and they put a pillow over
his face. They didn't kill him. Then they dragged him
to um a jail and they sentenced him to death
for missing his labor assignment. Uh. They were one by
(08:24):
one taking people out of the jail shortly after that
and killing them. And Marvin said that the jail doors
opened at one point and there was my grandfather, my
dad's father. He had bribed the guards to let him out.
Um he had we learned Um. We learned that he
had set up a system of bribery and collected this
(08:46):
big pot of money and wherever possible was saving lives
and um making conditions more bearable in the ghetto. And
that was just incredible to learn, an incredible piece of
information to share with my dad because he he doesn't
remember his father and he can only know about him
through these kinds of stories. So it was really amazing
(09:07):
moment to to hear this. That was one of the
biggest things that we learned about writing the book is
information about my father. He was president of the un ROD,
which basically means working together with the Nazis. And the
Jewish people, and uh when he found out what was
(09:29):
going on, he tried to save as many people as
he possibly could by either having them up go underground,
or bribing the Nazis or whatever was necessary to get
things done. Just to give you a little bit of
(09:54):
context about what Michael and Debbie were talking about, their
the uton rod were Jewish councils it up of citizens
of an occupied zone that the Nazis established to service
go betweens between the community there and the German officers
so that they could ensure that Nazi orders were being followed.
And Michael's father was head of the un rot in Jaqui,
(10:14):
and he used that position to help as many people
as he possibly could. We're going to pause here for
a brief sponsor break, and then we will continue our
conversation with Michael and Debbie in the next segment. Michael
talks about his parents and the sacrifices that they made,
(10:35):
and he and Debbie talk about how that background really
informs his life as a parent. I wonder, Michael, as
you had children of your own, did that affect your
thoughts about both of your parents and what they did
to try to protect you. Yes, it certainly has effect
(11:00):
with me. I'm very proud that my father uh was
was able to save people. Uh it affected me. My
mother gave us information about that survival. She uh uh
(11:21):
I was four years old at the time, and for
a while she was a Nouschwitz and she came into
the children's bung. She was beaten over the head. She
shared some of the food with me because the older
children were starving too, and they were able to take
my food away. So she gave me some of her bread,
(11:44):
some of her suit, which smelled terribly. Had to close
your nose to eat it. But it basically saved my
life then. And as a father, I can tell you.
As a daughter, um, I can tell you that. Um.
People ask me all the time, was your father affected?
Did he have depression? You know? How is he affected
(12:06):
by this? And he is an overwhelmingly positive man and
he created an incredibly positive life because of that optimistic
attitude he's always had. And he was just a great
everyday soccer dad. I never really thought about him so
much being a Holocaust survivor, but I see now that
whether he learned it, or whether he inherited it, or
(12:27):
or what happened, I can say that, UM, he is
as protective of us as my grandmother was of him
in Auschwitz. Um he puts his family first. He puts
his kids first, and his now his grandkids first. And UM,
I don't know whether he learned that from all the
sacrifices he saw his mother make for him, or whether
(12:49):
that's just who he is because he inherited it from
his parents. But I can tell you that, UM, he
is an incredibly positive and wonderful kind of a dad
and grandpa. I can also tell you that Debbie was
on vacation after she graduated college and she was going
to go to Auschwitz concentration camp, and I beg her
(13:11):
not to go, because I really don't like to see
my kids see the horrors. Uh and uh, And she
listened to me and didn't go to Housewitz. At the time,
he didn't really tried to put us in a bubble
and protect us. But I'm really proud of him that
he recognizes now how important it is to talk UM.
(13:33):
For so many reasons. For us, for the kids, it
was important to know these stories. And I think for
the country, especially now, and for the world, it's important
to share them because as soon as we forget, you know,
history repeats absolutely. I have to wonder, Debbie, what the
experience of working on this project what you're with your
father was like for you. Did it change your relationship?
(13:55):
My dad and I were always close. He's close with
all four of us kids, UM, but certainly, um, we
are incredibly close. Now I have a whole news respect
for my dad. You know, growing up, we would make
fun of him because he, um could never leave a
morsel of food on on a plate, and he was
very careful with money. I mean, I can remember going
(14:17):
on vacations where we all had to you know, hide
and to walk into hotel room separately and hide so
we could save money and share one room with our
big family. And we never got our own meals as kids.
We always had to share them at restaurants because you know,
it wasn't because my father couldn't afford it, because he
was always saving just in case, you know, in the
back of his mind is optimistic because he was he
(14:37):
always had some anxiety, some nerves about you know, what
he had been through and making sure that, um, you know,
his family was always protected. And now I think I
completely understand where he's coming from. I completely understand and
have so much respect for the fact that every decision
he made he always did with his kids int us
(15:00):
and with his family's interests UM in mind. And I
have incredible, incredible respect for him for finally deciding to
speak out because it wasn't easy. I UM. I know
that he's even nervous UM now sometimes about becoming a
target UM for anti you know, anti semites um and deniers,
(15:24):
and it took a lot of courage to step up
and and talk publicly. So I have an enormous amount
of respect for him. Um. I always did, but especially now.
I just want to mention that is a fantastic writer
and I just amazed she was a She was a
(15:46):
terrific poet and we have some of her poetry enough
on our wall. But she's done an absolutely great job.
But you're right, I one of the things that mother
taught me is gom zay. Yeah for this too. Shell
passed and we tried to be optimistic that things will
(16:09):
go better, and it certainly has. With Debby's book, We've
gotten amazing response and we're very, very happy in what
she did. And we didn't know if anybody would care.
Seventy two years after the war. Um, seventy two years
after liberation, we didn't know if anybody cared to keep
hearing more of these stories. And the response has been
(16:31):
so incredible, and um, it's very comforting. It's been a
big reassurance to me, but of course to my dad. Uh. Yeah,
I understand why the response has been incredible. The book
is is really lovely. The way you have laid out
the narrative is so engaging. I can't imagine people not
just completely devouring it in a short period of time,
(16:53):
because it's impossible to put down. One of the lines
that really stood out to me in the book was
where we're talking about being booked into Auschwitz, and the
line is it takes about sixty minutes to adjust and
to accept that everything has just been stolen from you,
even your name. And what that made me wonder is
how long it took you, Michael, to adjust the opposite
(17:17):
way to the idea that the camp had been liberated
and you were not a number but you were Michael Again,
if if I heard the question correctly, After we were liberated,
my mother was in Austria and the labor camp and
my grandmother, uh, and I got out of the concentration camp,
(17:38):
and we have a picture of carrying me out of
the camp. But just for your information, Uh, we came
back to the town where I was born to The
town is called Jarki in Poland, and the house was
occupied by Polish people and we couldn't get in. So
my grandmother and I me up and her up in
(18:02):
a chicken poop and that's how we lived. And uh,
my mother came back from Austria. She found us in
the town of Sharkey, and uh we were able to
go back. She was appalled at the conditions that we
were living, and not that they weren't better than Auschwitz,
(18:23):
but this was after the war, so thanks changed after that.
One of the things I found really fascinating about this
story is that the way the book has laid out,
the narrative of your time in Auschwitz ends about halfway through,
and the rest is really about your family, your surviving family,
recovering after having managed to survive all of this, And
(18:46):
was there a conscious choice to structure it that way.
You've already talked so much about positivity and how important
that is, but that coming back together of the remaining
family is so moving, and I wonder if you purposely
gave that a little more weight. It's called Survivor's Club
for a reason. This isn't just my dad's story. This
is his entire family story. One of the pieces that
(19:09):
I've always found so remarkable is that my grandma had
six brothers and sisters, so it was a family of
seven siblings. They all made different decisions during the war,
you know, someone into hiding. One was in Warsaw and
ended up in the Warsaw Uprising. One escaped Warsaw and
um ended up being saved by Tuni Suki haara Um
and escaping to Japan. Uh. My dad and his parents
(19:34):
stayed in Jarki and then ended up an Auschwitz. And
yet after the war, one by one they all came home.
Zarki was a town of thirty four Jews before the war,
and about twenty seven came back to Zarki, and most
of them were my dad's family. So it would have
been a mistake, I think, to focus just on Auschwitz
(19:56):
or just my dad's story, because it's the entire store,
it's the entire family story, and it's each piece is
so remarkable, and when you put them all together, it's
really unbelievable. UM, and I just I thought it was
important to make sure we included that my dad was
very close to with aunts and uncles, and as you read, UM,
(20:17):
when he came to New York, they came to his rescue. Dad.
You want to talk about that a little bit, Uh, yes, Uh.
First of all, I'll mention to you that after the war,
my mother took me to Germany. I was basically very skinny,
skeen and bone. I didn't have hair on my head,
(20:37):
and the children bullied me. And it was difficult in
Germany after the war. But then we came back to
the United States and First High US, a Jewish organization,
put me up because we went on a U S destroyer.
(20:58):
We came to the US on a US destroyer. I
think it's called the Steward. And I was throwing up
for seven days and seven nights because of uh the
waves and so on and see sickness, and so First
Highest put me up. I had a high fever and
almost didn't get into the United because UH naturalization people
(21:22):
didn't want to allow six people to come into the US.
But between my mother and I we managed to come in. Uh.
My one uncle put us up in Brooklyn in his
dining room, and so we managed to be there and
uh and its goes on and on like that, but
(21:45):
they all stayed, you know. They all looked out for
each other in different ways. My aunt Ola ended up
hiring my grandmother to work in her corset shop, um
Agnes Malone in New York, and so she was able
to make money that way when they could. Ever, everybody
looked out for each other. They were a rare, unique,
um miraculous club of survivors. Yeah. And I worked in
(22:10):
a drug store on ninety sixth Street in Madison Avenue
for fifty cents an hour, and uh that's how I
inherited my love for pharmacy. Went on to uh become
a chamber made buss boy waiter, head waiter. And the
(22:30):
cat skills H got Fordham was wonderful because, uh, when
I was ready to start college, Fordham University uh didn't
have any dorms and my mother remarried and moved to Havana, Cuba,
and I didn't have a place to stay again, and
Fordham put me up in uh there uh basically yeah,
(22:58):
infirmary whatever it was, and uh uh and with a
big eighth foot across in front of my bed, and
they were absolutely wonderful, gave me a fellowship and became
a pharmacist, and then I went on uh to the
University of Iowa, where I received a PhD in pharmaceutics
(23:22):
in analytical chemistry. And uh, probably the more important thing
is I met my wife, Judy there and we've been
married for almost fifty years. So so that's about it.
So Michael spoke briefly in the last segment about how
(23:45):
seasick he had been while crossing the Atlantic, and in
the book there is this story about how he and
his mother had to convince officials that he wasn't bringing
a contagious disease into the country in order to get
through immigration processing once they reached the United States. It
also speaks volumes that both Michael and Debbie are so
quick to credit every kindness that helped Michael along the
(24:07):
way as he built his life and pursued an education
here in the United States. And we're going to hear
more from them, but first we are going to pause
for a word from one of our fantastic sponsors. So
in our final segment of this interview, Michael and Debbie
share their perspectives on these sort of just insane circumstances
(24:31):
and very fortunate circumstances that enabled so many of their
family to survive. And Michael also shares his wisdom on
enduring difficult times and managing to maintain a positive outlook.
There were both, for you, Michael, and so many survivors
(24:53):
in your family, just innumerable moments where things had gone
even slightly differently, Uh, they would not have survived. So
when you think about all of those minute decisions and
moments that ultimately enabled you to stay alive until the
Soviets liberated the camp, what goes through your mind when
you think about how many things had to fall into
(25:14):
place for your ultimate survival. Yes, there are a lot
of things, starting with my father being president of the
unon rout and saving a lot of lives, and then
the situation in Outfits at the end, And really I
(25:36):
think it's just stab what you call it a miracle?
Would you call it miracles? How would you describe it miracles?
I guess huh, Yes, I would definitely describe it as
a miracle and a lot of miracles because again in
the United States, being uh able to find foredom and
then Iowa, and things go on and on. But the
(26:00):
biggest verycle, my kids and eleven grandchildren, and they're extremely
supportive and worked together. My grandson Jake was had a
Mitzva charity project uh and talking about the Holocaust, and
he had me involved. And that's one of the reasons
(26:21):
we got involved with the book, because he wanted to
share uh my experiences with Sinnagogue and other places. And
you returned to Auschwitz for the first time in two
thousand one. That had to have been quite an experience.
What was that like for you? Well, it was an
(26:43):
experience of probably the biggest thing was the anticipation of
going back to Auschwitz. And we saw the children's bunk,
and we saw the bunk there. We went to Burton
Now where we saw a small than and you know,
and I keep thinking back about the smell uh that
(27:07):
I think I experienced the Auschwitz, the marching boots and
uh it was difficult, but we worked through it and survived.
And again what I said, dan zay Avor, uh this
two show passed. Uh So. And the other thing I
(27:29):
won't mentioned to you about the h experience is my
mother went back to the house where we lived in Jakie, Poland,
and even though she couldn't get into the house, she
went to the backyard at night and she dug with
her hands to try to find the jewels and money
(27:54):
and personal belongings that they my father and my mother
did in the backyard. The only thing that we found
was a kiddish cup, a cup that you made blessings
over at different celebrations. And that cup has had a
lot of meanings for us. It's been at our wedding,
(28:20):
our children's at birth, the brisk and u and wedding
children's weddings. So we're very proud to to have that
kiddish cup. You magically got to my next question already.
I was going to ask you about that. What to
(28:42):
either of you is really the thing that you hope
people who read the book take away from it above
all else, well, I would say club all else. Number
one is come say or to be optimistic when things
are dead. I know it. In Germany, my mother after
(29:05):
bullying and so on, but people, uh townspeople in Germany,
children in Germany, they bullied me that I was a
Jew and called me you. Then my mother finally put
me in to a gymnasia debrit to Gammannia Hebrew Gymnasium
of Germany, and there were many other children there that
(29:30):
didn't have any family, It didn't have any optimism, jumped
out of windows. And so from that standpoint, it uh
if we learned to survive and succeed thanks to my
mother and and myself. And basically the one thing that
(29:54):
I learned is to be accepting of other people. And
we mentioned before the alt Right is there and they
they have some swasti as being inscribed and people being
(30:14):
called to or other blacks names and latinos since other minorities,
and I think it's important for people to learn to
be uh cognizant and be considerate of other minorities, other
religions and and backgrounds. Yeah, and for me at this
(30:37):
at this moment in time, I feel like it's also
important just to take away the fact that to take
away from the book the fact that UM, when bigotry
and um discrimination goes unchecked and when power goes unchecked,
this is what can happen. I have always wondered why
(30:58):
it took my dad seventy two years to finally open up,
and I've regretted that I didn't push harder earlier to
get him to answer these questions, or to get all
the answers from my grandmother when she was here. And
now it seems like the timing has almost faded that
this book should come out now. Um it seems like, um,
(31:19):
the perfect time to remind the world what happens when
bikeotry goes unchecked. My deepest, deepest thanks to Michael Bornstein
and Debbie Bornstein Holland stop for spending time with me
(31:40):
and sharing this really important piece of history. The book
is called Survivors Club, and it's available now. It's written
at a reading level suitable for younger history buffs, but
Holly has read it and found it a good read
for adults. Also. Yeah, Debbie did most of the writing
for it after she and her father had collected this
(32:00):
information and did interviews with relatives. And she's a really
good writer. She has a news background, so she's able
to convey information very clearly. Uh, it's a really good read.
I had a hard time putting it down. Actually, Survivors Club,
the true story of a very young prisoner of Auschwitz,
is available, as we said, wherever books are sold. You
can learn more about the book and if you want.
(32:21):
They're also doing some speaking engagements, so you can check
out their speaking schedule at Survivors club book dot com.
Do you have some listener mail to close us out today?
I do, But first I'm gonna talk about podcasts. Oh yeah,
we know, if you're listening to this, you listen to podcasts.
But you probably know somebody that is not listening to
podcasts yet. Maybe they haven't figured out exactly what a
(32:42):
podcast is. I know there are people in my family.
I'm still explaining it to um. But uh, surely you
have some podcasts that you love, not necessarily ours, that
might be perfect for them. Like, Uh, one of the
ones that I'm absolutely in love with and has been
I think it was actually my first podcast is Star
Talk with Neil de grass Tyson. I love it. It's
(33:03):
funny and it's informative, and it talks about science and
culture and it's really wonderful. There are so many people
that I recommend that too. There's probably some podcasts that
you listen to that is exactly perfect to get that
person that you haven't convinced that podcast is the right
thing for them yet to listen to. So do that
share your love of podcasts. You're opening up a who
new world of information for people, and when you do it,
(33:24):
you can also post on social media about it using
the hashtag tripod, which is tried t r y p
o D, so that you can let other people know
what you're recommending to your friends and family, UH and
to sort of, you know, make podcasts more available and
more accessible for everyone. Our listener mail is from an
artist named Claire Wildwood. She uses that on all of
(33:45):
her social media. Normally we don't give last names, but
since she also sent her card and it includes that,
I figured I would say that as well. She writes,
Dear Holly and Tracy. First of all, happy Valentine's Day,
because we got a Valentine card which I'll describe in
a moment. She says, thank you so much for the
truly wonderful podcast. I'm an illustrator and I love listening
to the podcast while sketching and painting. I especially love
any episode about fashion history. This card I designed brought
(34:08):
to mind the fabulous episode on Roosevelt dam. I love
what you ladies do, and thanks again. She sent us
this beautiful card that she designed, which is a woman
in UH eighteenth century Rococo gear, says the elam Valentine,
which is will you be My Valentine? It's beautiful. It
is black and white with red accents. Uh, and it's
absolutely gorgeous. It is another thing I have to post
(34:29):
a picture of. So thank you, so much, Claire again.
Her name is Claire Wildwood. If you want to look
her up online and see some of her beautiful art,
she's at Claire Wildwood dot com. UH. If you would
like to write to us, you can do so at
History Podcast at how stuff Works. You can also find
us across the spectrum of social media as missed in History.
That means on Twitter as at missed in History, on Instagram,
(34:50):
as at missed in History, at Facebook dot com, slash
missed in history at missed in History dot tumbler dot com,
and on pinterest dot com slash mist in history. If
you'd like to do a little research just for fun,
because you are clearly an information gathering type person, you
can go to our parents site, how stuff works dot com.
Type in almost anything you're curious about in the search bar,
and you will generate a list of content that will
(35:11):
keep you busy and occupied for quite some time. You
can also visit me and Tracy at missed in History
dot com or we have an archive of every episode
we have ever worked on together, as well as the
every episode of the show that's existed before us. We
also have a new format where we are combining the
show notes and the show page into one page, so
you just have to go to one place to get
(35:31):
all of that information. That's new. They used to be separate,
so if you're looking for one of the other, no
longer you can just find them all together. So come
of visit us at missed in History dot com and
how stuff Works dot com for more on this and
thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff works dot com.
(36:01):
The SI
Stuff You Missed in History Class News
Hosts And Creators
Holly Frey
Tracy Wilson
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