June 1, 2019 • 31 mins
Today we revisit a 2011 episode of the podcast. Lakshmi Bai was born into wealthy family in 1830, but she was far from the typical aristocrat. In this episode, Deblina and Sarah recount the life and work of Lakshmi Bai, from her youth to her instrumental role in the Indian Rebellion of 1857.
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Happy Saturday, everybody. We have a new podcast coming out
on our network. It's called Unpopular and it is about resistors, revolutionaries,
and other people who challenge the status quo. Eve's Jeff
co will be hosting the show, and listeners may already
know her from this day in History Class and we
are both really excited about it, Yes for sure. And
in the spirit of that theme, today we are returning
(00:23):
to lash Me By Ronnie of John c and her
role in the Indian Rebellion of eighteen fifty seven, which
is also known as India's First War of Independence. This
episode is from March of eleven with hosts Sarah and
Bablina and then Holly and I also talked about the
rebellion back in August of seen, but in that episode
we didn't talk about locked me By or her role
(00:44):
uh in it. Stay tuned at the end for a
peak and Unpopular. You can also find that show or
subscribe to it on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
Google Podcasts, and wherever else you get your podcasts. Welcome
to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production of
I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hello, and welcome to
(01:10):
the podcast I'm to bring a chalk rewarding And I'm
Sarah down and Sarah and I have been talking a
lot this month, since it's Women's History Month, about real
life Amazon's and it's interesting. But when you're talking about
female warriors, Joan of Arc is one who always comes up.
She's kind of a big name among female warriors. Absolutely,
And in case you're not familiar, Joan of Arc, of course,
(01:32):
is a national heroine in France for leading an army
to several victories during the Hundred Years War, and she's
also a Catholic saint. She said movies made about her,
books written about her were famous way up there. But
it's interesting. She's so famous that a lot of female
warriors since then have been compared to her, and they've
even earned the Joan of Arc nickname, you know, attached
(01:54):
to whatever country they're from. They're they're quite a few
of them, actually, Yeah. For example, Augustina Aragon is called
Spanish Joan of Arc, and there's also a Vietnamese Joan
of Arc. I think you guys have touched on her before,
and if I remember correctly, I'm pretty sure she predates
Joan of Arc, which makes that kind of a strange
title that you're you're getting that that nickname after the fact,
(02:15):
but whatever, what are you gonna do? But this is
all just to kind of set up to day's episode,
which is about India's Joan of Arc, a woman named
looks me By now Looks me By, who is also
known as the Ronnie of John C. She became famous
for her role in the Indian Mutiny of eighteen fifty seven,
which is sometimes thought of as India's first war of
independence from the British, of course, and her life is
(02:38):
uniquely wrapped up in all the factors that led to
this rebellion. So that's kind of why we wanted to
focus on her out of all these other Joan of
arcs today. Yeah, and I mean another interesting fact about
her is she's still quite important in modern India. She's
considered a national heroine and there are statues of her.
Her story is told in things like novels and movies
(02:59):
and ballads, just like just like Joan of Arc. I mean,
how about that um illustrated comics. I mean, she she's
a well known figure. Yeah, I think Prime Minister in
the ra Gandhi even appeared as LOKs me By in
a political commercial in the nineteen eighties, So she's kind
of all over the place, all sort of different facets
of of popular culture, and her story has become the
(03:20):
stuff of legend. And as we know with legends, a
lot of times, once history becomes legend, we sort of
get a little murky on what's fact and what's fiction.
So that's what we're gonna look at today. We're just
really going to consider who is looked me by, what
are the real facts about her? And why is she
alternately known as India's Joan of Arc and India's Jezebel,
(03:40):
depending on who you ask. But she' all didn't see
that one coming. So we're gonna start at the beginning
talk a little bit about her childhood because it really
lays the pretty strong groundwork for the woman she become.
She was born November nineteenth eighty seven to a Brahmin
family in Banaras, which is in northern India, and it
was a good family. It was even maybe a prominent family,
(04:02):
but they didn't really have that much money, it seems,
according to Rainier Juro's biography, The Ronnie of John C.
Rebligance Will, they didn't have that much money because her
parents had left their home in Maharashtra in central India
in exile because the ruler there was banished by the British.
So while they had been high ranking, and while her
(04:24):
father had been high ranking, he might have had a
little trouble re establishing himself in a new part of
the country and never really attained that high an income. Yeah,
so that just kind of sets up her family for you.
But Luxury by his original name was Moni Carnica, and
her parents called her Manu. Now Mona's childhood was kind
of unique for a little girl growing up in India
(04:46):
around that time, and that's mainly because her mom, Voggy Rothy,
passed away when she was about four years old, and
her dad, more upon Thumbay, remained a widower for more
than a decade. So really no big conservative corrective influence,
that female influence in her life. Who would have put
her on the path to I guess a more feminine upbringing. Yeah,
(05:10):
no one. They're telling her to stand up straight and
behave and seems and she was naturally feisty. She was
kind of a little tomboy, and because she didn't have
this female influence in her life, she got to stay
that way. She was allowed to stay that way. And
some sources say that it was her dad who was
actively encouraging that tomboyish behavior in her. You know, he
(05:31):
was teaching her how to do things like ride horses
and how to fence and shoot, and that was all
part of her education. Other sources, such as Dross, suggests
that her father really he just might have not been
in the picture enough to be that closely watching her education. Yea,
(05:52):
so she got to kind of run free she wanted.
So what is known about her, though, regardless of what
really happened, is that she became a very skilled writer
and learned how to use weapons, and most likely did
this before she got married, because it would have been
very inappropriate for a woman who was her traditional maharaja's
wife to um to do these things, especially because she
(06:13):
quote rode a horse like a man. In addition to
these manly skills, she also learned to read and write,
which was still kind of unusual for girls at that
run that time. Yeah, so you know, she comes out
of this a young girl with unusual talents, and it
seems like maybe some of this stuff would even dissuade
potential suitors, but she does get married in eighteen forty two,
(06:35):
she's about fifteen years old and she becomes the second
wife of Gungatar Rao Nil Walker, who is a lot
older than her. He's childless, but he is the Maharajah
of John c which is a principality about two fifty
miles southeast of Delhi. And just to give you a
little background on terms we're going to be using, because
(06:57):
I think from here on out we're pretty much going
to be calling her Rani. Raja in India is a
prance or a king of a particular area, and his
wife is known as Ranie, so she's a queen or
a princess. It's interesting that you mentioned that about how
her behavior might dissuade potential suitors, because it's not really
clear how the match got. The match between these two occurred.
(07:19):
There's such an odd couple they really are, and her
family really wasn't that wealthy. But here's one theory that's
out there about why the Raja picked her. Apparently he
had a tendency to cross dress, sometimes for theater roles
when you played female roles, but sometimes not. Sometimes he
would just wear women's jewelry around and stuff like that.
(07:40):
And since this was rather widely known at the time,
it suggested that this may have limited his choices and
second brides somewhat. So he may have had to settle
for this um noble but not particularly well off bride.
(08:02):
After her marriage, man who starts going by the name
lux me By and this suggests a reverence for the
Goddess of prosperity and happiness. So Luxmi was the patron
deity of her husband's family, and this would have made
sense for her to do, for her to change her
name like this. Yeah, it was a good move, and
she really did seem to embrace her role as Ronnie.
She she sort of put aside what she was used
(08:23):
to doing pretty easily, it seemed. And um tried really
hard and for a very long time to have a
child and an air and um it didn't happen. I
think years and years went by, but finally lashed me
By and the Rajah took a journey in eighteen fifty one,
kind of a pilgrimage to sacred Hindu sites, and not
long after that she got pregnant and gave birth to
(08:46):
a son. And you can imagine this couple was incredibly
excited now to finally have an air and a son
at that. But unfortunately for them, that excitement didn't last
very long because the baby die. It only three months old,
and they didn't know why it happened. He just died suddenly,
and and they were unfortunately not just in trouble for
(09:10):
personal reasons after that. Yeah, I mean they're personally personally,
they're grieving, but there are other consequences as well, and
that's because of something called the Doctrine of Laps. They
now have to worry about this too. So here's a
little background of the Doctrine of Laps. It's a formula
that was devised by Lord Delholsy, who was Governor General
of India from around eighty eight to eighteen fifty six,
(09:34):
and the doctrine it reflected this general desire on the
part of the British to expand the territory that they
had in India. And just to give you a little
bit of background on I guess Indian custom before that,
family politics, finally politics Exactly according to Indian tradition, a
ruler who didn't have any natural errors could adopt a
(09:55):
person who would then have all the personal and political
rights of a son. So, for example, the Ronnie of
John C himself had been an adopted heir, so there
was precedent for it there. However, dal Halsy with this
new doctrine, he basically asserted Great Britain's right as the
paramount power to approve adoptions. So what it did is
in practice it gave the British the opportunity to reject
(10:17):
a lot of last minute adoptions and therefore take over
this territory, yeah to step in and and collect land
piece by piece, which was obviously what their greater policy
was exactly, But this didn't stop the Ronnie and the
Raja from trying to do the same thing. In eighteen
fifty three, Gunga da Row becomes seriously ill and adopts
a distant five year old cousin named the mad A
(10:39):
Row as his son, and he draws up adoption papers
and a will which named the boys the Air and
the Ronnie as his regent, and he presents them to
Major Ellis, who was serving as an assistant political agent
at John C at the time, and this was all
done on November eighteen fifty three. Unfortunately, though the Raja dies,
(10:59):
the very next day. Yeah, so suddenly you have this
kind of last minute paperwork that's just gone down. This
British policy that doesn't really look that kindly on these adoptions,
especially a last minute one like this. And um, it
seems though that things might work out for a minute,
because Ellis is sympathetic to the Ronnie and he forwards
(11:20):
the information to his superior Major John Malcolm. But Malcolm,
even though he's not that keen on the idea of
the Ronnie being regent, he still describes her to Delousie
as quote, a woman highly respected and esteemed and I
believe fully capable of doing justice to such a charge.
So it still seems like maybe the British are going
(11:42):
to get behind this particular adoption at least. Yeah. Unfortunately, though,
Dalhousie refuses to acknowledge them with our row as air
and the new British Superintendent, Captain Alexander Sken comes to
John C and takes control under the doctrine of laps
without any opposition. So British are now in control, and
it seems that the Ronnie is out of luck. Yeah,
(12:04):
the estates tied up and and she's allowed to keep
the town palace as a personal residence, but she loses
all of the country estate and she only gets this
annual pension of about five thousand rupees and from that
she's expected to pay her husband's debt. So not a
good deal at all. So she doesn't accept it. No,
(12:26):
she doesn't accept it right away. She keeps submitting letters
to contest the doctrine of laps. She submits letters in December, February,
April of that year, and she keeps submitting letters until
I think early eighteen fifties six or so, so she
doesn't give up. Most of these letters, however, aren't even
forwarded to Lord's Ahousie, so she's not really being taken seriously.
(12:47):
At this point, her attempts to get the air of
British officials just it's falling on deaf years. It's not
a luck, it seems. So she consults with the British
Council John Lang, who is trying and trying to get
her to read did this pension sheet that she wouldn't accept?
And she says to him, and this has become kind
of a famous quote. She says, Mary John Z now
(13:07):
he doe and this means I will not give up,
my john Z so's making a stand put her foot down. Um.
But meanwhile, we're gonna catch you up with what's going
on in the rest of India. There were tensions mounting
among the Sea Boys, which were Indian troops in the
British East India Company Army and m Actually Candis and
(13:28):
Jane a very long time ago did an episode on
the East India Company UM and they mentioned sea poison
that so you could go learn a little bit extra
about them. But on the surface, it seemed like the
tensions that were mounting among these troops were caused by
rumors at the time that the cartridges were newly issued
Endfield rifles were greased with either cow or pig fat,
(13:51):
and depending on whether you were a Hindu or a
Muslim Sea Boy, that would be sacrilegious when you had
to tear open the cartridges with teeth. Um. So the
fear was that the British we're doing this on purpose.
They knew that this was likely to cause religious related offense,
and they were doing it to undermine the Sea Boys
(14:12):
faith and eventually make it easier for them to convert
them all to Christianity. Yeah, that was the rumor at
the time, as you said, but historians tend to think
that the tensions that were building up before this, they
were more due to the so called reforms that were
being made to Indian customs and culture around that time
or in the years leading up to it. For example,
(14:34):
widows being allowed to marry. That was something that was
very radical change. UM land reform had displaced many landowners,
So these things that the RANNIE was experiencing, others were
experiencing them too, and they weren't happy. You can imagine
how that would cause some pretty widespread discontent. So in
Mirat on May nine, eighty five of these sea boys
(14:56):
who refused to use the Endfield cartridges were tried and
put into irons, and um that started off major rebellion.
The next day, three regiments stormed the jail and killed
the officers and their families, and they marched from there
to Delhi, which was fifty miles away, and from there
the Seapoint rebellion really just kind of spread, you know.
(15:18):
It started as this localized incident, but it started to
spring up elsewhere like little brush fires, and a few
leaders took charge and transformed what had been a mutiny
into an organized resistance. They were really going to give
the British some trouble. Yeah, And eventually the mutiny made
its way to John C too. On June six fifty seven,
(15:42):
the troops at John C mutinied and shot their commanding officers,
Captain Skeen. At this point he gathers all the Europeans
in the city, which there were sixty six of them,
and that included about half of them I think were
women and children. They took refuge in the fort, which
was pretty well designed as a defense. It could withstand
a siege and it had an internal water supply, but
(16:03):
they really didn't have that much food at all. So
it wasn't going to be a long term solution to
this standoff and afford to stay there long. So on
June eighth, Skiing leads the British out of the fort
and they were massacred. By June twelve, the mutineers had
left John C for Delhi. So a bad situation, a
very bad situation. And considering how unhappy that Ronnie had
(16:26):
been with the government, many British people believe that she
was behind the mutiny. Yeah, but there was never any
real proof from this And as we're going to see.
It certainly did not benefit her in any way, but
still people were suspicious. This is where the jazz belt
part of the title comes from. Um. So she sent
a letter afterwards. You know, she knows that people are suspicious. Ever,
(16:47):
so she sent a letter to the British authorities and
she recounted everything that had happened to her, and she said, um,
among a lot of other things, quote that they the
mutineers afterwards behaved with much violence, that it's herself and
her servants, and extorted a great deal of money from her. So,
you know, basically just trying to make the point. They
messed with me too. You know, I was not their leader.
(17:10):
I didn't help get this whole thing going. Yeah, and
she expresses it's a long letter and you can find
excerpts on it in various essays and biographies, but she
basically is like, hey, I'm sorry this happened to you.
This is really sad, but my hands were tied. I
couldn't do anything about it. She sends another letter later
saying that there was anarchy in john Cy and she
asked for orders from the British and they issued a
(17:32):
proclamation authorizing the Ronnie to manage the district until they
could send soldiers there to restore order. And I was
really surprised by this part because up until now, you know,
the British have been trying to strip her of any
power she had, and here they are authorizing her to
to raise an army. Pretty amazing. Yeah, I think it shows,
(17:52):
you know, that they did think that she had some brains,
they had some respect for her. They just didn't want
her to actually have any land. Yeah, in absence of
any other British option, we will let you run the
place for a little while until we get there. But
you know, in general, but she does start building up
this army while managing the district, and presumably at this
(18:15):
point it is to defend John C from neighboring districts
and rebels, maybe a distant claimant to the throne, you know,
just anybody who might come and cause trouble. Yeah, and
according to military history, some of her troops included mutineers
from the former John C. Garrison, which is kind of suspicious,
I guess, and probably didn't help her cause and trying
(18:35):
to convince people that she wasn't responsible right then. Jaroch
also says that her army included some women too, and
that this was an indicator of how devoted and loyal
her subjects were to her, because they were willing to
cast aside tradition to fight with her. Speaking of tradition,
(19:01):
we need to mention the appearance of this woman too
and her mannerisms, because she she cut quite a figure,
I mean to to say the least, she's been described
as being fair and handsome, even though according to most
of the British Men who described her, her face was
a little on the round side. Um. But she quote
had a noble presence and figure and a stern expression.
(19:24):
And instead of following the traditional customs of widows at
the time and dressing all in white and not wearing
any jewelry, she came out wearing men's clothes sometimes, this
coat of dark blue, a beautiful turban on her head,
and this embroidered cloth around her waist, and jeweled a
jeweled sword. I mean, she she must have been pretty
(19:46):
amazing looking, especially out leading an army. Yeah, definitely, and
she I guess had some moves to People have said
that they've you know, they saw her practicing her skills
on her back and with their weapons out. Um. You
know while she was getting this army together, and one
of her signature moves which I love, I think I
(20:07):
was trying to remember this for you earlier but couldn't
remember it. It It was that she would be on a
horse and twirling a saber in each hand with the
reins of the horse and her teeth so very skilled. Indeed,
that would be really scary if you if you saw
someone coming with two sabers. Yeah. I didn't worry about
(20:28):
my teeth, though, I hope that were me to you
might like go over a little bump or something. Yeah. Yeah,
But she had bigger problems though, than her teeth. I mean,
that was not her top concern. That was not her
top concern. And I mean, if you wanted to show
people you were tough, hey, that's the way to do it.
Suffice to say, she soon got the opportunity to show
off her skills in January, Major General Sir he Rose,
(20:53):
who ends up being named as her major opponent in
this whole affair. I think march towards the city with
soldiers and as eight is February, the Ronnie told her
British advisors that she would in fact return the district
to the British when they got there, so their army exactly.
She didn't seem this is a relief she's been waiting for, right, um,
so not confrontational at this point. But that's not really happened.
(21:15):
It wasn't a nice handoff, was it. It's not how
Rose treats the situation at all. On March fifty eight,
Rose and his forces attacked Johncy and again, according to
military history, luxmi By resisted because she wasn't sure if
she was going to be executed if she was captured.
I think she really believed that the British, after all,
they still weren't really happy with her after the mutiny
(21:38):
and really blamed her for it. Still many of them did,
the officials at least, and and clearly the relations between
her and the British were muddled to say the least.
I mean, she didn't know what exactly was going on.
So by March thirty, most of the Ronnie's guns were
disabled and the fort's walls had been breached, and by
April three, the British broke into the city and they
(21:58):
took the palace and storm the fort, but she got out.
She escaped on horseback in the night before that final assault.
And this is the amazing part. And if you if
you look up a picture of her, you'll see dramatizations
of this, not entirely accurate ones. But she escapes into
the night on horseback with her ten year old adopted
(22:19):
son strapped her back. I think he mentioned that she
knew she was going to have to ride too fast
to just have him sitting in front of her strapped
her back. Yeah. I mean, this is where you see
a lot of the legend come in. You'll hear many
different accounts of how this escape might have occurred, but
in general we think that he was strapped to her back,
tied to her with a sash, and that she and
(22:40):
a bunch maybe up to three hundred of her troops
escaped in the middle of the night. And it's all
a little bit sketchy because how did they get past
the British troops, But maybe they were just confused in
the dark. Yeah, But I mean, once the Ronnie is out,
she rode like the wind because she was afraid that
the British were after her. And it's that she wrote
(23:00):
anywhere from eighty six to ninety three miles and twenty
four hours to get all the way to the fortress
of Kalpi, where she joined up with some of the
other resistance leaders Yeah nanasa Heb raw Saheb, and thought
the ape. These were well known resistance leaders. They had
been involved in other mutinies elsewhere in India going on
(23:20):
at the time, and so they grouped together, joined forces
at Um and they faced the British in two consecutive
battles Um starting from Kalpi, one on May six but
which they were forced to retreat from, and another one
where they were defeated again on May twenty two or
twenty third somewhere around there. The British thought that was
the end at that point, but that wasn't actually the case.
(23:42):
On May thirty, the rebels reached Gualier, which controlled both
the Grand Trunk Road and the telegraph lines between Agra
and Bombay. There they met Joigi raw Shindia, the Maharaja
of Gwalior, and he was a British loyalist and actually
tried to stop them at this point. He tried to
kind of push the rebels back and not let them in,
but his troops ended up switching sides and he had
(24:04):
to flee to Agra. So at this point, the rebels
have control of Gualier. Yeah, pretty big bunch of them
too by now, and on June Sixte Rosa's forces close
in though, So it's important to note up until this point,
lacked me By had not been out at the head
of these rebel battles, but she was the one who
(24:25):
led what remained of her John C. Contingent out to
to stop Rose's forces on Gwalior. She went out to
battle dressed in male clothing. She had on the red
uniform of a cavalry officer. She was wearing a white
turban over her short hair. She really cut quite an
inspiring figure. But during the battle she was shot from
(24:47):
her horse and killed, and it's believed that she was
cremated really soon after that because she was terrified that
her body would fall into British hands and and not
be treated respectfully. And after her death, Gwalier fell pretty
soon after that, and the organized rebellion really fizzled out.
And even though lashed me By herself did not really
(25:08):
win any of these battles, it seems like her personality
and her bravery really left a big impression on people. Yeah,
it's really that, I think, as you mentioned her personality
that's really made her a symbol of the fight for
Indian independence. And at the time, I think it was
sort of true as well. I mean, British newspapers proclaimed
looked me by the Jezebel of India. But even Sir
(25:31):
Hugh Rose, her big rival in this whole battle, compared
his fallen adversary to Joan of Arc. So that's, you know,
maybe one of the first places that we see that.
And he reported her death to William Augustus, Duke of
Cumberland in this way, he said, the Ronnie is remarkable
for her bravery, cleverness and perseverance. Her generosity to her
(25:52):
subordinates was unbounded. These qualities, combined with her rank, rendered
her the most dangerous of all rebel leaders. And I mean,
I think that's interesting. And I mentioned this a minute
ago when we were talking about how strange it is
that they gave her, they gave her permission to raise
an army in the first place, but that they would
be so disrespectful of her claims yet so admiring of her,
(26:16):
her personality and her her capability. I just think it's um,
I don't know, it's sad. Yeah, it's a huge contradiction,
but I mean, I think we see that a lot
throughout women's history, and Rose had more praise for her,
and maybe somewhat dubious praise, I guess, depending on how
you like to study your women's history. He said. Although
(26:37):
she was a lady, she was the bravest and best
military leader of the rebels, a man among the mutineers.
So his highest compliment was comparing her to a man. Yeah,
and so does the popular folk song. But I think
that it might put it a little a little better better, Yeah,
definitely more exciting. Right, So the folk song goes, how
valiantly like a man thought she the Ronnie of John C.
(27:00):
On every parapet, a gun, cheese set, raining fire of hell.
How well like a man thought the Ronnie of John C.
How valiantly and well, thank you so much for joining
us on this Saturday. If you have heard an email
address or a Facebook you are l or something similar
over the course of today's episode. Since it is from
(27:22):
the archive that might be out of date now, you
can email us at History Podcast at how stuff works
dot com, and you can find us all over social
media at missed in History, and you can subscribe to
our show on Apple Podcasts, Google podcast the I Heart
Radio app, and wherever else you listen to podcasts. Stuff
(27:44):
you missed Industry Classes a production of I Heart Radios
How Stuff Works. For more podcasts. For my heart Radio,
visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows. Imagine for a moment
(28:06):
a world where nobody ever questioned the way things are,
one where no person ever challenged common thought or believed
in thinking beyond the limitations of contemporary knowledge, where no
one ever had the guts to propose new ideas for
fear of being shunned or killed. Without protest, there would
(28:31):
be no progress. I for one, am thankful that there
were plenty of people in history who refused to accept
the conventions of their times, people like Galileo, who was
punished and confined for suggesting facts that other people couldn't fathom,
and Fumilao Ransom Coutie, who stood up for women in
(28:54):
Nigeria when their needs were being ignored when they were alive.
Their idea is their actions. Their audacity was despised by
so many people. Of course, they had supporters, but their
opposition made them targets of hate and state sanctioned denouncement.
(29:15):
Even though their descent was based in research and experience
and driven by desire for meaningful change, they still need
lots of enemies for it. It's human nature to value
stability and patterns. It makes sense for us to be
resistant to change and being wrong just sucks. But change
(29:36):
is inevitable and we have to think forward if we're
going to move forward, even if it costs us. I'm
eve chef cook. Every week on Unpopular will reach back
into the past to tell the story of someone who
challenged the status quo, connecting the dots between their history
(29:57):
and the history that we're making today. We can be
so quick to dismiss people's ideas when they seem too big,
don't align with how we see the world, make us uncomfortable,
or shatter our pride or power. It's easy to reject change,
it's harder to be open to new ideas, and often
(30:20):
it's hard to be the person who is calling for
meaningful change in the face of people who can be arrogant, stubborn,
and unwilling to accept that change. But somebody has to
do it, and sometimes it pays off. Is it worth
it to speak out when it feels like the world
is against you. The first episode of Unpopular comes out
(30:45):
on ma After that, you can look forward to a
new episode every Tuesday. Click the subscribe button in the
I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get
your podcast to make sure you don't miss a single episode.
Happy Saturday, everybody. We have a new podcast coming out
on our network. It's called Unpopular and it is about resistors, revolutionaries,
and other people who challenge the status quo. Eve's Jeff
co will be hosting the show, and listeners may already
know her from this day in History Class and we
are both really excited about it, Yes for sure. And
in the spirit of that theme, today we are returning
(00:23):
to lash Me By Ronnie of John c and her
role in the Indian Rebellion of eighteen fifty seven, which
is also known as India's First War of Independence. This
episode is from March of eleven with hosts Sarah and
Bablina and then Holly and I also talked about the
rebellion back in August of seen, but in that episode
we didn't talk about locked me By or her role
(00:44):
uh in it. Stay tuned at the end for a
peak and Unpopular. You can also find that show or
subscribe to it on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
Google Podcasts, and wherever else you get your podcasts. Welcome
to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production of
I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hello, and welcome to
(01:10):
the podcast I'm to bring a chalk rewarding And I'm
Sarah down and Sarah and I have been talking a
lot this month, since it's Women's History Month, about real
life Amazon's and it's interesting. But when you're talking about
female warriors, Joan of Arc is one who always comes up.
She's kind of a big name among female warriors. Absolutely,
And in case you're not familiar, Joan of Arc, of course,
(01:32):
is a national heroine in France for leading an army
to several victories during the Hundred Years War, and she's
also a Catholic saint. She said movies made about her,
books written about her were famous way up there. But
it's interesting. She's so famous that a lot of female
warriors since then have been compared to her, and they've
even earned the Joan of Arc nickname, you know, attached
(01:54):
to whatever country they're from. They're they're quite a few
of them, actually, Yeah. For example, Augustina Aragon is called
Spanish Joan of Arc, and there's also a Vietnamese Joan
of Arc. I think you guys have touched on her before,
and if I remember correctly, I'm pretty sure she predates
Joan of Arc, which makes that kind of a strange
title that you're you're getting that that nickname after the fact,
(02:15):
but whatever, what are you gonna do? But this is
all just to kind of set up to day's episode,
which is about India's Joan of Arc, a woman named
looks me By now Looks me By, who is also
known as the Ronnie of John C. She became famous
for her role in the Indian Mutiny of eighteen fifty seven,
which is sometimes thought of as India's first war of
independence from the British, of course, and her life is
(02:38):
uniquely wrapped up in all the factors that led to
this rebellion. So that's kind of why we wanted to
focus on her out of all these other Joan of
arcs today. Yeah, and I mean another interesting fact about
her is she's still quite important in modern India. She's
considered a national heroine and there are statues of her.
Her story is told in things like novels and movies
(02:59):
and ballads, just like just like Joan of Arc. I mean,
how about that um illustrated comics. I mean, she she's
a well known figure. Yeah, I think Prime Minister in
the ra Gandhi even appeared as LOKs me By in
a political commercial in the nineteen eighties, So she's kind
of all over the place, all sort of different facets
of of popular culture, and her story has become the
(03:20):
stuff of legend. And as we know with legends, a
lot of times, once history becomes legend, we sort of
get a little murky on what's fact and what's fiction.
So that's what we're gonna look at today. We're just
really going to consider who is looked me by, what
are the real facts about her? And why is she
alternately known as India's Joan of Arc and India's Jezebel,
(03:40):
depending on who you ask. But she' all didn't see
that one coming. So we're gonna start at the beginning
talk a little bit about her childhood because it really
lays the pretty strong groundwork for the woman she become.
She was born November nineteenth eighty seven to a Brahmin
family in Banaras, which is in northern India, and it
was a good family. It was even maybe a prominent family,
(04:02):
but they didn't really have that much money, it seems,
according to Rainier Juro's biography, The Ronnie of John C.
Rebligance Will, they didn't have that much money because her
parents had left their home in Maharashtra in central India
in exile because the ruler there was banished by the British.
So while they had been high ranking, and while her
(04:24):
father had been high ranking, he might have had a
little trouble re establishing himself in a new part of
the country and never really attained that high an income. Yeah,
so that just kind of sets up her family for you.
But Luxury by his original name was Moni Carnica, and
her parents called her Manu. Now Mona's childhood was kind
of unique for a little girl growing up in India
(04:46):
around that time, and that's mainly because her mom, Voggy Rothy,
passed away when she was about four years old, and
her dad, more upon Thumbay, remained a widower for more
than a decade. So really no big conservative corrective influence,
that female influence in her life. Who would have put
her on the path to I guess a more feminine upbringing. Yeah,
(05:10):
no one. They're telling her to stand up straight and
behave and seems and she was naturally feisty. She was
kind of a little tomboy, and because she didn't have
this female influence in her life, she got to stay
that way. She was allowed to stay that way. And
some sources say that it was her dad who was
actively encouraging that tomboyish behavior in her. You know, he
(05:31):
was teaching her how to do things like ride horses
and how to fence and shoot, and that was all
part of her education. Other sources, such as Dross, suggests
that her father really he just might have not been
in the picture enough to be that closely watching her education. Yea,
(05:52):
so she got to kind of run free she wanted.
So what is known about her, though, regardless of what
really happened, is that she became a very skilled writer
and learned how to use weapons, and most likely did
this before she got married, because it would have been
very inappropriate for a woman who was her traditional maharaja's
wife to um to do these things, especially because she
(06:13):
quote rode a horse like a man. In addition to
these manly skills, she also learned to read and write,
which was still kind of unusual for girls at that
run that time. Yeah, so you know, she comes out
of this a young girl with unusual talents, and it
seems like maybe some of this stuff would even dissuade
potential suitors, but she does get married in eighteen forty two,
(06:35):
she's about fifteen years old and she becomes the second
wife of Gungatar Rao Nil Walker, who is a lot
older than her. He's childless, but he is the Maharajah
of John c which is a principality about two fifty
miles southeast of Delhi. And just to give you a
little background on terms we're going to be using, because
(06:57):
I think from here on out we're pretty much going
to be calling her Rani. Raja in India is a
prance or a king of a particular area, and his
wife is known as Ranie, so she's a queen or
a princess. It's interesting that you mentioned that about how
her behavior might dissuade potential suitors, because it's not really
clear how the match got. The match between these two occurred.
(07:19):
There's such an odd couple they really are, and her
family really wasn't that wealthy. But here's one theory that's
out there about why the Raja picked her. Apparently he
had a tendency to cross dress, sometimes for theater roles
when you played female roles, but sometimes not. Sometimes he
would just wear women's jewelry around and stuff like that.
(07:40):
And since this was rather widely known at the time,
it suggested that this may have limited his choices and
second brides somewhat. So he may have had to settle
for this um noble but not particularly well off bride.
(08:02):
After her marriage, man who starts going by the name
lux me By and this suggests a reverence for the
Goddess of prosperity and happiness. So Luxmi was the patron
deity of her husband's family, and this would have made
sense for her to do, for her to change her
name like this. Yeah, it was a good move, and
she really did seem to embrace her role as Ronnie.
She she sort of put aside what she was used
(08:23):
to doing pretty easily, it seemed. And um tried really
hard and for a very long time to have a
child and an air and um it didn't happen. I
think years and years went by, but finally lashed me
By and the Rajah took a journey in eighteen fifty one,
kind of a pilgrimage to sacred Hindu sites, and not
long after that she got pregnant and gave birth to
(08:46):
a son. And you can imagine this couple was incredibly
excited now to finally have an air and a son
at that. But unfortunately for them, that excitement didn't last
very long because the baby die. It only three months old,
and they didn't know why it happened. He just died suddenly,
and and they were unfortunately not just in trouble for
(09:10):
personal reasons after that. Yeah, I mean they're personally personally,
they're grieving, but there are other consequences as well, and
that's because of something called the Doctrine of Laps. They
now have to worry about this too. So here's a
little background of the Doctrine of Laps. It's a formula
that was devised by Lord Delholsy, who was Governor General
of India from around eighty eight to eighteen fifty six,
(09:34):
and the doctrine it reflected this general desire on the
part of the British to expand the territory that they
had in India. And just to give you a little
bit of background on I guess Indian custom before that,
family politics, finally politics Exactly according to Indian tradition, a
ruler who didn't have any natural errors could adopt a
(09:55):
person who would then have all the personal and political
rights of a son. So, for example, the Ronnie of
John C himself had been an adopted heir, so there
was precedent for it there. However, dal Halsy with this
new doctrine, he basically asserted Great Britain's right as the
paramount power to approve adoptions. So what it did is
in practice it gave the British the opportunity to reject
(10:17):
a lot of last minute adoptions and therefore take over
this territory, yeah to step in and and collect land
piece by piece, which was obviously what their greater policy
was exactly, But this didn't stop the Ronnie and the
Raja from trying to do the same thing. In eighteen
fifty three, Gunga da Row becomes seriously ill and adopts
a distant five year old cousin named the mad A
(10:39):
Row as his son, and he draws up adoption papers
and a will which named the boys the Air and
the Ronnie as his regent, and he presents them to
Major Ellis, who was serving as an assistant political agent
at John C at the time, and this was all
done on November eighteen fifty three. Unfortunately, though the Raja dies,
(10:59):
the very next day. Yeah, so suddenly you have this
kind of last minute paperwork that's just gone down. This
British policy that doesn't really look that kindly on these adoptions,
especially a last minute one like this. And um, it
seems though that things might work out for a minute,
because Ellis is sympathetic to the Ronnie and he forwards
(11:20):
the information to his superior Major John Malcolm. But Malcolm,
even though he's not that keen on the idea of
the Ronnie being regent, he still describes her to Delousie
as quote, a woman highly respected and esteemed and I
believe fully capable of doing justice to such a charge.
So it still seems like maybe the British are going
(11:42):
to get behind this particular adoption at least. Yeah. Unfortunately, though,
Dalhousie refuses to acknowledge them with our row as air
and the new British Superintendent, Captain Alexander Sken comes to
John C and takes control under the doctrine of laps
without any opposition. So British are now in control, and
it seems that the Ronnie is out of luck. Yeah,
(12:04):
the estates tied up and and she's allowed to keep
the town palace as a personal residence, but she loses
all of the country estate and she only gets this
annual pension of about five thousand rupees and from that
she's expected to pay her husband's debt. So not a
good deal at all. So she doesn't accept it. No,
(12:26):
she doesn't accept it right away. She keeps submitting letters
to contest the doctrine of laps. She submits letters in December, February,
April of that year, and she keeps submitting letters until
I think early eighteen fifties six or so, so she
doesn't give up. Most of these letters, however, aren't even
forwarded to Lord's Ahousie, so she's not really being taken seriously.
(12:47):
At this point, her attempts to get the air of
British officials just it's falling on deaf years. It's not
a luck, it seems. So she consults with the British
Council John Lang, who is trying and trying to get
her to read did this pension sheet that she wouldn't accept?
And she says to him, and this has become kind
of a famous quote. She says, Mary John Z now
(13:07):
he doe and this means I will not give up,
my john Z so's making a stand put her foot down. Um.
But meanwhile, we're gonna catch you up with what's going
on in the rest of India. There were tensions mounting
among the Sea Boys, which were Indian troops in the
British East India Company Army and m Actually Candis and
(13:28):
Jane a very long time ago did an episode on
the East India Company UM and they mentioned sea poison
that so you could go learn a little bit extra
about them. But on the surface, it seemed like the
tensions that were mounting among these troops were caused by
rumors at the time that the cartridges were newly issued
Endfield rifles were greased with either cow or pig fat,
(13:51):
and depending on whether you were a Hindu or a
Muslim Sea Boy, that would be sacrilegious when you had
to tear open the cartridges with teeth. Um. So the
fear was that the British we're doing this on purpose.
They knew that this was likely to cause religious related offense,
and they were doing it to undermine the Sea Boys
(14:12):
faith and eventually make it easier for them to convert
them all to Christianity. Yeah, that was the rumor at
the time, as you said, but historians tend to think
that the tensions that were building up before this, they
were more due to the so called reforms that were
being made to Indian customs and culture around that time
or in the years leading up to it. For example,
(14:34):
widows being allowed to marry. That was something that was
very radical change. UM land reform had displaced many landowners,
So these things that the RANNIE was experiencing, others were
experiencing them too, and they weren't happy. You can imagine
how that would cause some pretty widespread discontent. So in
Mirat on May nine, eighty five of these sea boys
(14:56):
who refused to use the Endfield cartridges were tried and
put into irons, and um that started off major rebellion.
The next day, three regiments stormed the jail and killed
the officers and their families, and they marched from there
to Delhi, which was fifty miles away, and from there
the Seapoint rebellion really just kind of spread, you know.
(15:18):
It started as this localized incident, but it started to
spring up elsewhere like little brush fires, and a few
leaders took charge and transformed what had been a mutiny
into an organized resistance. They were really going to give
the British some trouble. Yeah, And eventually the mutiny made
its way to John C too. On June six fifty seven,
(15:42):
the troops at John C mutinied and shot their commanding officers,
Captain Skeen. At this point he gathers all the Europeans
in the city, which there were sixty six of them,
and that included about half of them I think were
women and children. They took refuge in the fort, which
was pretty well designed as a defense. It could withstand
a siege and it had an internal water supply, but
(16:03):
they really didn't have that much food at all. So
it wasn't going to be a long term solution to
this standoff and afford to stay there long. So on
June eighth, Skiing leads the British out of the fort
and they were massacred. By June twelve, the mutineers had
left John C for Delhi. So a bad situation, a
very bad situation. And considering how unhappy that Ronnie had
(16:26):
been with the government, many British people believe that she
was behind the mutiny. Yeah, but there was never any
real proof from this And as we're going to see.
It certainly did not benefit her in any way, but
still people were suspicious. This is where the jazz belt
part of the title comes from. Um. So she sent
a letter afterwards. You know, she knows that people are suspicious. Ever,
(16:47):
so she sent a letter to the British authorities and
she recounted everything that had happened to her, and she said, um,
among a lot of other things, quote that they the
mutineers afterwards behaved with much violence, that it's herself and
her servants, and extorted a great deal of money from her. So,
you know, basically just trying to make the point. They
messed with me too. You know, I was not their leader.
(17:10):
I didn't help get this whole thing going. Yeah, and
she expresses it's a long letter and you can find
excerpts on it in various essays and biographies, but she
basically is like, hey, I'm sorry this happened to you.
This is really sad, but my hands were tied. I
couldn't do anything about it. She sends another letter later
saying that there was anarchy in john Cy and she
asked for orders from the British and they issued a
(17:32):
proclamation authorizing the Ronnie to manage the district until they
could send soldiers there to restore order. And I was
really surprised by this part because up until now, you know,
the British have been trying to strip her of any
power she had, and here they are authorizing her to
to raise an army. Pretty amazing. Yeah, I think it shows,
(17:52):
you know, that they did think that she had some brains,
they had some respect for her. They just didn't want
her to actually have any land. Yeah, in absence of
any other British option, we will let you run the
place for a little while until we get there. But
you know, in general, but she does start building up
this army while managing the district, and presumably at this
(18:15):
point it is to defend John C from neighboring districts
and rebels, maybe a distant claimant to the throne, you know,
just anybody who might come and cause trouble. Yeah, and
according to military history, some of her troops included mutineers
from the former John C. Garrison, which is kind of suspicious,
I guess, and probably didn't help her cause and trying
(18:35):
to convince people that she wasn't responsible right then. Jaroch
also says that her army included some women too, and
that this was an indicator of how devoted and loyal
her subjects were to her, because they were willing to
cast aside tradition to fight with her. Speaking of tradition,
(19:01):
we need to mention the appearance of this woman too
and her mannerisms, because she she cut quite a figure,
I mean to to say the least, she's been described
as being fair and handsome, even though according to most
of the British Men who described her, her face was
a little on the round side. Um. But she quote
had a noble presence and figure and a stern expression.
(19:24):
And instead of following the traditional customs of widows at
the time and dressing all in white and not wearing
any jewelry, she came out wearing men's clothes sometimes, this
coat of dark blue, a beautiful turban on her head,
and this embroidered cloth around her waist, and jeweled a
jeweled sword. I mean, she she must have been pretty
(19:46):
amazing looking, especially out leading an army. Yeah, definitely, and
she I guess had some moves to People have said
that they've you know, they saw her practicing her skills
on her back and with their weapons out. Um. You
know while she was getting this army together, and one
of her signature moves which I love, I think I
(20:07):
was trying to remember this for you earlier but couldn't
remember it. It It was that she would be on a
horse and twirling a saber in each hand with the
reins of the horse and her teeth so very skilled. Indeed,
that would be really scary if you if you saw
someone coming with two sabers. Yeah. I didn't worry about
(20:28):
my teeth, though, I hope that were me to you
might like go over a little bump or something. Yeah. Yeah,
But she had bigger problems though, than her teeth. I mean,
that was not her top concern. That was not her
top concern. And I mean, if you wanted to show
people you were tough, hey, that's the way to do it.
Suffice to say, she soon got the opportunity to show
off her skills in January, Major General Sir he Rose,
(20:53):
who ends up being named as her major opponent in
this whole affair. I think march towards the city with
soldiers and as eight is February, the Ronnie told her
British advisors that she would in fact return the district
to the British when they got there, so their army exactly.
She didn't seem this is a relief she's been waiting for, right, um,
so not confrontational at this point. But that's not really happened.
(21:15):
It wasn't a nice handoff, was it. It's not how
Rose treats the situation at all. On March fifty eight,
Rose and his forces attacked Johncy and again, according to
military history, luxmi By resisted because she wasn't sure if
she was going to be executed if she was captured.
I think she really believed that the British, after all,
they still weren't really happy with her after the mutiny
(21:38):
and really blamed her for it. Still many of them did,
the officials at least, and and clearly the relations between
her and the British were muddled to say the least.
I mean, she didn't know what exactly was going on.
So by March thirty, most of the Ronnie's guns were
disabled and the fort's walls had been breached, and by
April three, the British broke into the city and they
(21:58):
took the palace and storm the fort, but she got out.
She escaped on horseback in the night before that final assault.
And this is the amazing part. And if you if
you look up a picture of her, you'll see dramatizations
of this, not entirely accurate ones. But she escapes into
the night on horseback with her ten year old adopted
(22:19):
son strapped her back. I think he mentioned that she
knew she was going to have to ride too fast
to just have him sitting in front of her strapped
her back. Yeah. I mean, this is where you see
a lot of the legend come in. You'll hear many
different accounts of how this escape might have occurred, but
in general we think that he was strapped to her back,
tied to her with a sash, and that she and
(22:40):
a bunch maybe up to three hundred of her troops
escaped in the middle of the night. And it's all
a little bit sketchy because how did they get past
the British troops, But maybe they were just confused in
the dark. Yeah, But I mean, once the Ronnie is out,
she rode like the wind because she was afraid that
the British were after her. And it's that she wrote
(23:00):
anywhere from eighty six to ninety three miles and twenty
four hours to get all the way to the fortress
of Kalpi, where she joined up with some of the
other resistance leaders Yeah nanasa Heb raw Saheb, and thought
the ape. These were well known resistance leaders. They had
been involved in other mutinies elsewhere in India going on
(23:20):
at the time, and so they grouped together, joined forces
at Um and they faced the British in two consecutive
battles Um starting from Kalpi, one on May six but
which they were forced to retreat from, and another one
where they were defeated again on May twenty two or
twenty third somewhere around there. The British thought that was
the end at that point, but that wasn't actually the case.
(23:42):
On May thirty, the rebels reached Gualier, which controlled both
the Grand Trunk Road and the telegraph lines between Agra
and Bombay. There they met Joigi raw Shindia, the Maharaja
of Gwalior, and he was a British loyalist and actually
tried to stop them at this point. He tried to
kind of push the rebels back and not let them in,
but his troops ended up switching sides and he had
(24:04):
to flee to Agra. So at this point, the rebels
have control of Gualier. Yeah, pretty big bunch of them
too by now, and on June Sixte Rosa's forces close
in though, So it's important to note up until this point,
lacked me By had not been out at the head
of these rebel battles, but she was the one who
(24:25):
led what remained of her John C. Contingent out to
to stop Rose's forces on Gwalior. She went out to
battle dressed in male clothing. She had on the red
uniform of a cavalry officer. She was wearing a white
turban over her short hair. She really cut quite an
inspiring figure. But during the battle she was shot from
(24:47):
her horse and killed, and it's believed that she was
cremated really soon after that because she was terrified that
her body would fall into British hands and and not
be treated respectfully. And after her death, Gwalier fell pretty
soon after that, and the organized rebellion really fizzled out.
And even though lashed me By herself did not really
(25:08):
win any of these battles, it seems like her personality
and her bravery really left a big impression on people. Yeah,
it's really that, I think, as you mentioned her personality
that's really made her a symbol of the fight for
Indian independence. And at the time, I think it was
sort of true as well. I mean, British newspapers proclaimed
looked me by the Jezebel of India. But even Sir
(25:31):
Hugh Rose, her big rival in this whole battle, compared
his fallen adversary to Joan of Arc. So that's, you know,
maybe one of the first places that we see that.
And he reported her death to William Augustus, Duke of
Cumberland in this way, he said, the Ronnie is remarkable
for her bravery, cleverness and perseverance. Her generosity to her
(25:52):
subordinates was unbounded. These qualities, combined with her rank, rendered
her the most dangerous of all rebel leaders. And I mean,
I think that's interesting. And I mentioned this a minute
ago when we were talking about how strange it is
that they gave her, they gave her permission to raise
an army in the first place, but that they would
be so disrespectful of her claims yet so admiring of her,
(26:16):
her personality and her her capability. I just think it's um,
I don't know, it's sad. Yeah, it's a huge contradiction,
but I mean, I think we see that a lot
throughout women's history, and Rose had more praise for her,
and maybe somewhat dubious praise, I guess, depending on how
you like to study your women's history. He said. Although
(26:37):
she was a lady, she was the bravest and best
military leader of the rebels, a man among the mutineers.
So his highest compliment was comparing her to a man. Yeah,
and so does the popular folk song. But I think
that it might put it a little a little better better, Yeah,
definitely more exciting. Right, So the folk song goes, how
valiantly like a man thought she the Ronnie of John C.
(27:00):
On every parapet, a gun, cheese set, raining fire of hell.
How well like a man thought the Ronnie of John C.
How valiantly and well, thank you so much for joining
us on this Saturday. If you have heard an email
address or a Facebook you are l or something similar
over the course of today's episode. Since it is from
(27:22):
the archive that might be out of date now, you
can email us at History Podcast at how stuff works
dot com, and you can find us all over social
media at missed in History, and you can subscribe to
our show on Apple Podcasts, Google podcast the I Heart
Radio app, and wherever else you listen to podcasts. Stuff
(27:44):
you missed Industry Classes a production of I Heart Radios
How Stuff Works. For more podcasts. For my heart Radio,
visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows. Imagine for a moment
(28:06):
a world where nobody ever questioned the way things are,
one where no person ever challenged common thought or believed
in thinking beyond the limitations of contemporary knowledge, where no
one ever had the guts to propose new ideas for
fear of being shunned or killed. Without protest, there would
(28:31):
be no progress. I for one, am thankful that there
were plenty of people in history who refused to accept
the conventions of their times, people like Galileo, who was
punished and confined for suggesting facts that other people couldn't fathom,
and Fumilao Ransom Coutie, who stood up for women in
(28:54):
Nigeria when their needs were being ignored when they were alive.
Their idea is their actions. Their audacity was despised by
so many people. Of course, they had supporters, but their
opposition made them targets of hate and state sanctioned denouncement.
(29:15):
Even though their descent was based in research and experience
and driven by desire for meaningful change, they still need
lots of enemies for it. It's human nature to value
stability and patterns. It makes sense for us to be
resistant to change and being wrong just sucks. But change
(29:36):
is inevitable and we have to think forward if we're
going to move forward, even if it costs us. I'm
eve chef cook. Every week on Unpopular will reach back
into the past to tell the story of someone who
challenged the status quo, connecting the dots between their history
(29:57):
and the history that we're making today. We can be
so quick to dismiss people's ideas when they seem too big,
don't align with how we see the world, make us uncomfortable,
or shatter our pride or power. It's easy to reject change,
it's harder to be open to new ideas, and often
(30:20):
it's hard to be the person who is calling for
meaningful change in the face of people who can be arrogant, stubborn,
and unwilling to accept that change. But somebody has to
do it, and sometimes it pays off. Is it worth
it to speak out when it feels like the world
is against you. The first episode of Unpopular comes out
(30:45):
on ma After that, you can look forward to a
new episode every Tuesday. Click the subscribe button in the
I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get
your podcast to make sure you don't miss a single episode.
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Hosts And Creators
Holly Frey
Tracy Wilson
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