SYMHC Classics: Vernon Lee

This 2018 episode covers Violet Paget, more often known by her pen name Vernon Lee, who was a historian and an art and literary critic. She wrote on myriad subjects including music, travel, aesthetics, psychology and economics. And she was well known for her ghost stories.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
Happy Saturday. This week on the show, we talked about
Amy Levy and her association with Violet Paget, who was
also known as Vernon Lee. I said in that episode
that we were thinking about bringing our Vernon Lee episode back.
Is a Saturday classic that did indeed work out here
it is. This originally came out on October Welcome to

(00:26):
Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production of I
Heart Radio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Tracy V. Wilson,
and I'm Holly Fry. Violet Paget, who was more often
known by her pen name Vernon Lee, was a historian

(00:47):
and an art and literary critic, and she wrote across
all kinds of subjects, including music and travel, and esthetics
and psychology and economics. And the reason that we were
talking about her in October ghost stories. There maybe aren't
quite as many ghost stories as I was hoping when
I embarked on this, but there are some. Yeah, I'll

(01:08):
take it. Violet Paget was born on October fourteenth, the
eighteen fifty six, in Boulogne, surmer France. Her parents were
Henry Ferguson and Matilda Paget. Matilda had been married once before,
to a Captain, James Lee Hamilton's, who died in eighteen
fifty two. She had one son from that first marriage,
Eugene Lee Hamilton's, who was eleven years older than Violet.

(01:31):
Violet's father had been Eugene's tutor, and since he had
no money or background to speak of, Matilda's family had
been kind of shocked when she chose to marry him. Yeah,
Matilda was owed an inheritance, but it was tied up
in a very complicated legal dispute. So even though they
were British citizens, the Pagets couldn't afford to keep up
a genteel lifestyle in England, especially not one that would

(01:54):
require them to maintain a home to keep up with
their neighbors in that home. They could, how her, afford
that same basic level of comfort abroad. So Violent and
Eugene grew up in a somewhat eccentric, very wandering existence
in continental Europe. They moved from place to place, and
they lived off what little income Matilda did have, staying

(02:15):
in inns and rented rooms. But they weren't tourists. Matilda
was adamant that they were not tourists. Later in her life.
Here's how Violet described it, quote, we shifted our quarters
invariably every six months, and by dint of shifting, crossed
Europe's length and breadth in several directions. But this was moving,

(02:36):
not traveling, and we contemned all travelers. Violet's mother really
doated on Eugene, and she focused most of her attention
on Eugene's upbringing in education. Even after Eugene went off
to Oxford, Matilda was still way more attentive to how
he was doing than she was to violets studies. Violet

(02:57):
did have a series of governesses, but a lot of
times she was just left on her own and to
her own devices when it came to study. But she
was extremely bright, and she was very precocious, and they
were living all over Europe, so she became fluent in English, French, Italian,
and German, and she taught herself a wide range of subjects.

(03:17):
While Violet's mother hated the idea of being a tourist,
that often wasn't the case when it came to their
various neighbors. When Violet was ten, the family was in
Nice and their neighbors included the Sergeant family. That's including
John Singer, Sergeant, also aged ten, and his sister Emily,
who was about a year younger, and John's mother had

(03:37):
taken the family to Niece for the sake of her health,
and she loved being a tourist. She filled their days
with all kinds of outings, including to libraries and museums
and historical points of interest, and she made it a
point to invite Violet along as well. That same year
that the Pagets met, the Sergeant's Eugene dropped out of Oxford.

(03:59):
This was a huge, huge disappointment to their mother, but
it meant that Violet finally had an adult to give
her self education some more direction. Over the next few years,
Eugene played a big part in Violet's course of study,
and he also started to give her feedback on her writing.
The Pagets and the Sergeant's crossed Paths repeatedly after meeting
in Nice, and Mrs Sergeant encouraged all of the children

(04:21):
to play right and draw together. Violet and John weren't
particularly close after they grew up, although he did draw
and paint her, but Violet and Emily Sergeant remained close
friends for the rest of their lives. John Singer Sergeant.
Portrait of Vernon Lee's is the art for this episode
on our website. I love it, yet she reminds me

(04:45):
of Chummy on Call the Midwife, which I know is
not a show that you were particularly into. You. I
don't watch it because of all the baby halvings. Yes,
that is not your thing. It is my thing. So
it was through all these are things with the sergeants
that Violet started to become a lot more interested in
history and architecture and art. And this was particularly true

(05:08):
when both families were living in Rome. When Violet and
John were twelve, after walking through the streets and the
historical sites of Rome and becoming really immersed in its
sense of centuries of history, she really threw herself into
studying it. She also started writing more and more and
developing her own imaginative side, both through writing and through play.

(05:30):
For example, she and John Singer Sergeant would read about
things like historical executions, and then they would act those out,
like what kid didn't do that? I'd love that story.
Violet's first published work came out when she was fourteen,
and it drew from her time in Rome and her
study of history and art there. It was written in

(05:50):
French and titled liz Aventures dun pas de monet or
The Adventures of a Coin, and as that title suggests,
it's a story told through the life of a coin.
It starts out in ancient Rome, and then the coin
passes from person to person through the centuries until it
ends up with a coin collector. This is obviously a
fictional story, but it's also deeply grounded in history, complete

(06:14):
with footnotes. The Adventures of a Coin came out serially
in three issues of the journal La Famia and May,
June and July of eighteen seventy. Throughout her teens, Violet
was ambitious, precocious, and very focused. She kept on writing
and getting her work published, and in eighteen seventy three,
when she was seventeen, her family finally settled down into

(06:37):
a permanent home, and that home was in Florence, Italy.
They moved into a different house in Florence, known as
Il Palmerino in eighty two that is, weirdly lived for
the rest of her life. A big part in this
shift from their perpetual wandering to staying put was that
Violet's mother had finally gotten that inheritance. She was owned,

(06:59):
so now they could have ward all the associated costs
that came along with maintaining a household. They still didn't
have a ton of money though. One of the reasons
that they were in Florence was because Italy was considered
to be the cheapest place to live. But another big
part of it was that Eugene had become seriously ill.
He had started to experience an unexplained paralysis, and so

(07:20):
the family put down roots and he moved home to
be cared for by his mother and his sister. Violet
had enjoyed many of the places that they had lived
over all those years, but she really really loved Italy,
and to her it was just home. Violet adopted the
pseudonym Vernon Lee in eighteen seventy five, at the age
of nineteen, after her family had been living in Florence

(07:41):
for about two years, and we'll get to that after
a quick sponsor break. By the time Violet Paget started
using the pseudonym Vernon Lee in eighteen seventy five, it
was coming a lot more common for women to publish

(08:02):
their work under their own names. Her peers and the
women who were acting as her literary mentors were publishing
as themselves, and while it wasn't necessarily completely acceptable socially
for a woman to be publishing her work, it also
wasn't practically mandatory for a woman to take on a
man's name in order to get published at all. But

(08:23):
Paget had moved on from writing things like The Adventures
of a Coin, and she was embarking in the world
of art criticism and aesthetics, which is the branch of
philosophy devoted to beauty, the nature of art, and artistic appreciation.
She was writing very dense technical work on academic subjects.
She had no formal education, she was still quite young,

(08:44):
and she hadn't developed any kind of name or reputation
for herself. In her words, written to novelist Henrietta Jenkin, quote,
no one reads a woman's writing on art history or
aesthetics with anything but unmitigated contempt. This pen name she
had tofted was the combination of Vernon because it started
with a V like Violet, and Lee from her half

(09:05):
brother's surname. For a time she also used her father's initials,
so it was HP Vernon Lee. The first time she
used the pseudonym was in a series of articles, and
the Italian journal Law revised to Europea or the European Magazine.
After those first articles as Vernon Lee, she never published
as Violet Paget again, even after people made the connection

(09:27):
that Vernon Lee and Violet Paget were one and the same.
She did, however, use both names in her personal life,
including signing some letters with one name and others with
the other. The name Vernon Lee became increasingly recognized, though,
so going forward, we're going to use that name for
the rest of the podcast. Yeah, people handle her name differently.

(09:49):
Some people say Vernon Lee throughout one of the biographies
that I read, switched back and forth between whether they
were talking about her formal work or her social life.
Very interesting. I understand the eye dia, But yeah, it
seems like she was very fluid with both names. Yeah,
but for the interest of clarity, it's probably easiest to
just pick one and run with. Flipping back and forth

(10:11):
in an audio podcast seemed like it would be more
confusing than not. Regardless, though, eighteen eighty was a busy
year for Vernon Lee. She was twenty four and she
published a work called Studies of the eighteenth century in Italy.
Some of this book had been previously published as standalone essays,
and it was an exploration of eighteenth century Italian literature, theater,

(10:33):
and music, including opera and Comedia dell arte. It was
deeply informed by years of trawling through bookstalls and libraries
looking for old copies of eighteenth century material. It was
also informed by Lee's study of and thoughts on esthetics,
and by her study of music. She had actually given

(10:55):
up music lessons when she was younger because she just
wasn't very good at it, and then she started them
again while working on this book so that she could
appreciate the technical elements of what she was writing about.
This book took English readers on a tour of eighteenth
century Italy, and it was very popular and generally well reviewed.
Its content and its reception also gave her access to

(11:18):
some prestigious artistic and literary circles. It was one of
the things that helped her develop an extensive network among
some of the foremost Victorian writers, artists, and philosophers. Yeah,
one of the things that people comment on about Vernon
Lee a lot, besides her writing is this extensive network
of basically everybody that was a prominent person in the

(11:40):
whole literary, artistic, and philosophical world at the time. She
she knew practically everyone. She also started a relationship with
another young writer named Mary Robinson. In eighteen eighty. Robinson
was invited to stay with the Padgets in Florence, and
soon she was spending every autumn in Florence with Lee,
and Lee was spending every summer in London with her.

(12:02):
Robinson and Lee spent a lot of their time together,
working side by side, but Robinson's family was not particularly
enthusiastic about this relationship. This was a time when romantic
friendships were common and not particularly stigmatized, and at least
at first, nothing more was suspected. But Lee could be

(12:22):
cattie and tactless, which the Robinson's simply did not approve of,
and they also felt somewhat taken advantage of, since it
was through them that Lee was meeting a lot of
publishers for her work. In one Lee published a work
called Belcaro being Essays on Sundry Aesthetical Questions, which she
dedicated to Mary Robinson. The set of essays was very

(12:44):
heavily influenced by the esthetic philosophy of Walter Pater, who
Lee met that same year. Peter became one of Lee's
very few close male friends. In general, she had several
close women friends, almost no close male friends. He was
also a huge influence on her work. Leah was also
for a time friends with novelist Henry James. There's some

(13:08):
speculation that James wrote her into his novel Roderick Hudson,
but she was only nineteen when that book came out,
so the timing doesn't quite add up with when she
then had access to all of these people, but they
were friends and correspondence by the eighteen eighties. On September four,
James wrote a letter in which he said, quote, I

(13:28):
don't think I think Violet Paget great, but I think
her a most astounding young female and Euphorian, most fascinating
and suggestive, as well as monstrous clever. She has prodigious cerebration.
Euphorian's full title was Euphorian being Studies of the Antique
and Medieval in the Renaissance. It was similar to the

(13:51):
eighteenth century Italy Book, but about the Medieval and Renaissance periods.
I love she has prodigious cerebration, but that same year.
Also in four Lee published her first novel, which was
called Miss Brown. She and Henry James had been corresponding

(14:13):
while she was working on it, and James knew that
Lee was planning to dedicate it to him, But when
it came out, he didn't like it. That's awkward. Uh.
He never relate told Lee what he thought about it.
He sort of danced around his criticisms once. He eventually
wrote her a letter, but before he did that, he

(14:33):
told basically everyone else how bad he thought it was.
In one letter, he wrote, quote, as I told you,
my modest name is on the dedication page, and my
tongue is therefore tied in speaking of it, at least generally.
But I may whisper in your ear that as it
is her first attempt at a novel, so it is
to be hoped it may be her last. It is

(14:54):
very bad, strangely inferior to her other writing, and to
me at least pay fully disagreeable in tone. Henry James
was not alone in this opinion. Overall, Miss Brown was
very widely panned. It was basically a Pygmalion story about
a poet and painter who finds the eponymous Anne Brown,
who was a servant girl, and he educates her with

(15:16):
the intention of marrying her, and so a lot of
the novel hinges on her decision and her deliberation of
whether she wants to marry him or not. Lee just
didn't put much separation between the real world inspirations for
her characters and the characters themselves. It satirized the aesthetic
movement that was playing out in London, and there were

(15:37):
a lot of unflattering characters in the novel who had
real life counterparts, including Oscar Wilde that is a person
I would not want to make an enemy of. Frankly Uh.
These counterparts were so obvious that people also interpreted similarities
that weren't intentional as being about them. People were particularly
annoyed because Lee was a relative newcomer to the London see,

(16:00):
so they didn't think she had enough experience with it
to be justified in her criticisms. Lee also saw still
more controversy in eighteen eighty four with her publication of
the Countess of Albany, which was a biography of Charles
Edwards Stewart's wife Louise. People were outraged over this biography
because Lee wrote about the Countess sympathetically, and she spelled

(16:23):
out how she was living at a time and in
a place where it was normal and expected for a
woman to have a lover. But to her English audience,
the Countess was just an adulteress who deserved neither sympathy
nor respect. Lee was still reeling from all this criticism
when Mary Robinson married James Darmstadtor in eighteen eighty seven,

(16:43):
ending their seven year relationship. Darmastator had read and appreciated
some of Robinson's work, and they had gotten engaged after
corresponding for just a few months. No one except the
couple was in favor of this match. The pagets had
really taken for granted that Robinson would never marry and
that her relationship with Lee would just go on indefinitely.

(17:06):
The Robinson's disapproved because Dharmasteader was Jewish, from a poor family,
and disabled due to a spinal disease he had had
as a child. Also, a whole lot of people pointed
out that they had only met in person like three
times before they got engaged. I am not in a
position to judge that. Uh Lee was absolutely heartbroken when

(17:28):
Robinson married, but Almost immediately she began a new relationship
with Clementina and Struther Thompson, who was known as Kit.
It is not clear whether she pronounced this Ainster and
Strucor or some other variation. She was from Scotland, and
there is a town in Scotland where locals say Ainster

(17:49):
but everyone else does not. So apologies if I have
offended anyone's ear. We don't mean to make your ears
bleed when we say this name and st the Thompson
basically waited out the end of Lee's relationship with Mary Robinson.
Lee had asked her mother to invite Anstruther Thompson to
stay with them in Florence. Once she heard about this engagement.

(18:12):
Once the rest of the padgets also knew about the engagement,
she asked again, saying quote, you will understand now why
it would make me utterly miserable if I were not
permitted to have this woman in Florence and answer there.
Thompson patiently tended Lee through her heartbreak. Robinson's wedding was
in March, and by about June, ansterer there Thompson had

(18:36):
taken her place in Vernon Lee's life. This was a
turning point in Lee's life, and we're going to get
to the next phase and those ghost stories we promised
you after we first have a little bit of a
sponsor break. Even though she was bolstered through her relationship

(18:59):
with Kit Answer their Thompson Vernon, Lee's output really dipped
for a while after Mary Robinson announced her engagement in
eight seven. Lee had always been prone to anxiety and illnesses,
and over the years she had also had a series
of mental breakdowns, but those years after Robinson got engaged
and married were particularly hard. For almost ten years, a

(19:22):
lot of her publications, especially the more academic ones, were
previously published essays. This was, however, when she wrote most
of her supernatural stories. This wasn't totally new territory for her.
Earlier in the show, we mentioned her collection of essays
bel carro being essays on Sundry Aesthetical Questions from back
in eighty one, and one of the essays was Faustus

(19:45):
and Helena Notes on the Supernatural in art. Here's a
quote from that quote. We none of us believe in
ghosts as logical possibilities, but we most of us conceived
them as imaginative probabilities. We can still feel a ghostly,
and thence it is that a ghost is the only
thing which can, in any respect replace for us the

(20:06):
divinities of old, and enable us to understand, if only
for a minute, the imaginative power which they possessed, and
of which they were despoiled, not only by logic but
by art. By ghost, we do not mean the vulgar
apparition which is seen or heard in told or written tales.
We mean the ghost which slowly rises up in our mind,

(20:29):
the haunter not of corridors and staircases, but of our fancies.
And ten nine published a collection of four supernatural stories
called Hauntings, and the preface runs along a very similar
theme to that earlier essay. She writes about the trope
of the horrible family secret that's revealed to every member

(20:49):
of the family on their twenty one birthday, quote so
terrible as to overshadow his subsequent life. She writes about
how the dread of this terror secret is so much
worse than whatever the reality can be. She goes on
to say that quote, it seems to me that the supernatural,
in order to call forth these sensations terrible to our ancestors,

(21:13):
and terrible, but delicious to ourselves. Skeptical posterity must necessarily,
and with few exceptions, remain in wrapped in mystery, She
ends the preface. Hence, my four little tales are of
no genuine ghosts in the scientific sense. They tell of
no hauntings such as could be contributed by the Society

(21:35):
of Psychical Research. Of no specters that can be caught
in definite places and made to dictate judicial evidence. My
ghosts are what you call spurious ghosts, according to me,
the only genuine ones of whom I can affirm only
one thing, that they haunted certain brains, and have haunted,
among others, my own and my friends. The stories in

(21:57):
her collection, along with most of her other supernatural stories,
piece together events that are increasingly odd and eerie and
foreboding and oppressive, and they're also really deeply connected to
the place where the story is set. Oak of oak
Hurst or the Phantom Lover, which was originally published as
a Phantom Lover of Fantastic Story, is the only one

(22:19):
of these stories that said in England, and it's set
in a creepy old manor house. It draws off from
a lot of the tropes of an English story set
in a creepy old manor house. But the rest are
set in Italy, Spain or Germany, and they draw extensively
from history and myth and folklore, and often there's an
underpinning of some fictional historical facts that are pointed out

(22:40):
as facts and they make it seem more real. A
few examples of these stories, which were mostly written between
eighteen eighty nine and nine. Two uh amor Dure is
written in the form of a diary. It is about
a historian who becomes increasingly fixated on and enamored with
a historical woman he is researching named Medeia Decarpi. Dianea

(23:03):
is a series of letters detailing these strange and violent
events surrounding a young girl who was the only survivor
of a shipwreck. Prince Alberic and the Snake Lady features
a young boy who becomes more and more preoccupied with
a story about how his namesake ancestor rescued a woman
from being enchanted as a snake, which was also depicted
on a tapestry in his grandfather's home. Just as a

(23:27):
side note of Vernon Lee's half brother, Eugene Lee Hamilton
was a writer as well. He also wrote gothic and
supernatural stories. Others his tended to be a lot more
lurid and a lot less psychological than his sisters. I
read a couple of these stories while I was working
on this. I feel like they hold up pretty well,
hers or his, or both hers. I did not read

(23:48):
any of his gotcha. I just read there the description
that in general, they tended to be a lot more,
a lot more along the lines of here is the
creepy ghost obviously supernatural happening, while Leaves tended to be
more like, there's some unexplained elements here, but this person
is also being tormented by their own mind. Right and
ghost stories were not the only thing that Lee was

(24:10):
writing at the end of the nineteenth century. In two
she wrote the story that finally put the nail in
the coffin of her friendship with Henry James, who was
called Lady Tal, and it came out in a collection
called Vanitas Polite Stories. Lady Tal included a transparent and
unflattering fictionalization of Henry James, and this time James did

(24:32):
not read it. He heard about it, decided he would
rather not know, and that he was done. He later
wrote his brother in a letter in which he said
it was quote particularly impudent and blaggardly sort of thing
to do to a friend, and one who has treated
her with such particular consideration as I have. She's a
tiger cat, which to me is like a great compliment.

(24:53):
But that's maybe not what he intended. Vernon Lee and
Kit Anster there Thompson all worked together on a theory
of aesthetics at the end of the nineteenth century. It
was drawn from Kit's own awareness of her body's physical
responses while looking at art. This was connected to the
German concept of infulung or feeling into It's one of

(25:15):
the first English language explorations of the idea of empathy
and the context of aesthetics. They published an essay on
this work that was called Beauty and Ugliness. In even
was rooted in the idea that these physical responses are
the work of a person's body subconsciously mimicking or living

(25:35):
through what you're seeing in the art. This was unfortunately
the end of their relationship as well. Art historian and
critic Bernard Berenson had been working on some similar ideas,
and he accused both women of plagiarism. He later admitted
that his accusations had been baseless, but the stress of

(25:55):
the accusation took such a tool on anstruthor Thompson that
she had a mental breakdown. She went back to Scotland
shortly before Beauty and Ugliness was published, Although this wasn't
amicable split, and the two women stayed in touch for
the rest of Kid's life. This was the third in
a series of upsets for Lee that came pretty closely together.

(26:16):
Her friend and mentor, Walter Pater, died in her mother
died in eighteen ninety six, and with her mother's death,
Lee took on the primary responsibility for caring for her
brother Eugene, who was still very ill. This was something
that she continued to do until he got married in
eight He just noted died in nineteen o seven. To

(26:38):
console herself through all of this, Lee also turned to
travel writing. She traveled extensively around Europe, although mostly took
conventional places, and she seemed to find some comfort in
writing about it, and she bought Ill pal Marino in
nineteen o six. By the nineteen teens, Lee had worked
in so many fields and across so many genres. There

(26:59):
was history, art criticism, history, philosophy, fiction, and on, and
and on and on. Both she and her mother had
also been ardent anti vivisectionists and campaigners for animal rights.
But as World War One approached, Lee increasingly focused on
advocating pacifism, including writing anti war literature, and this was

(27:20):
of course highly criticized, and even among pacifists, Lee was
something of a loner. She distanced herself from people whose
pacifism was radical or religiously motivated, and she was isolated
from her home as well. She was in England when
the war began in nineteen fourteen, and she wasn't able
to get back to Italy until after it was over.

(27:42):
During the war, she joined and wrote for the Union
of Democratic Control or the u d C. The UDC
was a British organization that called for reduced armaments and
the creation of an organization among European nations designed to
prevent future warfare, along with a treaty at the end
of the war that did not redraw all the borders

(28:03):
or humiliate the defeated nations. Of course, the Treaty of
Versailles did the opposite, and Lee, having lived in Germany
at several points in her life was just certain that
the terms of the Treaty of Versailles that were meant
to punish Germany, we're really going to cause and not prevent,
future conflict. Because she knew what she was talking about,

(28:24):
she did. Most of Lee's writing during and after World
War One was about pacifism. In nineteen fifteen she wrote
an allegory called the Ballet of Nations of present Day Morality,
and in nineteen twenty she published Satan the Waiter of
Philosophic War trilogy. But by this point both she and
her output were slowing down. She was getting older, and

(28:47):
although she was still able to travel once the war ended,
she typically only went to places that she had been before.
In nineteen twenty, Lee realized that the main villa at
Il Palmrino had become much too big for her, and
rather than sell the whole property, she moved into one
of the cottages there that a friend had rented from
her and improved. It was the sort of property that

(29:08):
had a main villa and then several farm cottages that
tenant farmers could live in, and she moved into one
of those that had been fixed up a bit. When
kit ends to their Thompson died in one Lee became
her literary executor. Mary Robinson was also widowed, remarried, and
then widowed again, but she and Lee never really rekindled

(29:28):
their relationship. During her fifty three years writing, Vernon Lee
wrote more than thirty works of non fiction, four novels,
four volumes of short stories, and a play, as well
as essays and letters. This was a massive output, especially
considering that some of it was very dense and academic
and she had no formal education. She also had ongoing

(29:50):
relationships and lengthy correspondences with people like H. G. Wells,
Edith Wharton, and Mary Cassatt. She died in Italy on February.
She'd become chronically ill, and she had lost most of
her hearing. Not long before her death, she told her
own literary executor that she felt like quote an alien,

(30:11):
having no ties either of nation, blood, class, or profession.
The older she got, the more she felt like she
had just sort of been born in the slightly wrong era.
She wished she had been born a little later, and
then she could have been like a modern woman of letters,
rather than being the sort of odd Victorian outlier. A

(30:32):
lot of her papers are at Colby College in Maine,
which is kind of ironic because she never traveled to
the US. Having lived through World War One, she was
very concerned about the idea of her work being destroyed
in a war, and her literary executor, Irene Cooper Willis,
decided Colby would be the safest place. Today, a lot
of Lee's work and esthetics seems somewhat dated, but a

(30:55):
lot of her other work, especially her histories and her
supernatural stories, have held up a lot better. Those supernatural
stories have variously been reissued and some have been included
in collections into the twentieth century. You can also find
a ton of this work on the internet for free.
The stories Hauntings is available I think it Project Guttenberg

(31:18):
pretty easily um and is a fun collection of ghostly
short stories to read. Some of the other work is
again very dense, especially the more philosophical stuff. Thany so

(31:39):
much for joining us on this Saturday. Since this episode
is out of the archive, if you heard an email
address or Facebook U r L or something similar over
the course of the show, that could be obsolete now.
Our current email address is History Podcast at I heart
radio dot com. Our old house stuff works, email address
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(32:00):
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