Middlekauff – 3 & Out – Zeke holdout a joke; Baker's noise; Dumb coaching lists; Fangio dropping wisdom; Middlekauff Mailbag

Subscribe here to the 3 and Out with John Middlekauff Podcast https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/3-and-out-with-john-middlekauff/id1352730623?mt=2.

In this episode, Middlekauff explains why a Zeke Elliott holdout would be a slap in Jerry Jones' face after supporting him through all his off field issues, why Baker Mayfield's noise isn't something to be concerned about, why coach ranking lists are dumb, and his thoughts some wisdom dropped by new Broncos Head Coach Vic Fangio about connecting with the fans during training camp..John answers listener questions in Middlekauff's Mailbag. Follow John on twitter @JohnMiddlekauff and go to www.theherdnow.com to find the latest content. Subscribe now!

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Episode Transcript

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Out podcast brought to you by m Guy Colin Coward
and his podcast network Back again Thursday. You know we
got Actually I think the Denver Broncos Arizona Cardinals report
for camp today or maybe yesterday, and they started practicing today.
I know a bunch of other teams report next week.

(02:08):
I think in about ten days the majority of teams
should be in pads. It's that to me, Sparks, the
beginning of training camp is when do you put on pads?
I know for me, the forty nine ers should be
in pads by like the twenty ninth, so I'm basically
ten days away from that. That's the way I look
at it. So I'm excited. We all should be excited.

(02:31):
A lot of people keep asking me, are we gonna
do a three and out fantasy football league. I'm gonna
have to dive in and look a little more into that.
But I know you guys, a lot of you guys
play fantasy. I'm not opposed to play in fantasy. I'm
more of a daily fantasy guy because of the effort
and energy it takes for the entire season. But if
the people want it, the people get what they want.

(02:51):
A good show. Today we got Zeke Elliott. I know
Colin went off about it the other day. I have
some thoughts on that Baker Mayfield along article was written
about him in ESPN, and I think we need to
be kind of careful the way we, you know, categorize
some of the younger players. There was a coaching list
that came out and Kyle Shanahan became pretty polarizing in

(03:16):
terms of he was way down on the list. Somehow,
John Gruden was way above him, and I know Colin
basically compared in to Belichick, and I just have some
thoughts on coaching lists in general, like to me, it's
much easier to do a player list than a coaching
list because they're not all on the same cycle. We'll
dive into that, and then I saw Vic Fangio had
had some great quotes about the importance of training camp,

(03:38):
the importance of the interaction with your fans. And I
know I'm lucky enough in the Bay Area back when
I was allowed to go to Raiders training camp. They
do a good job in NAPA allowing fans. The Niners
have done have changed the last couple of years, allow
fans in there. And when I was in Philly, they
no longer go to Lehigh, but we used to go
where CJ. McCollum, the Blazers, you know, start shooting guard

(04:00):
went to college. We would go away for three weeks
and it was awesome, and I do think it served
a purpose and nice off. Firsthand, it used to be
ten thousand people showing up to practice. The interaction with
your players and the fans, to me, is is something.
The more money you make in the NFL has never
made more money, you know, you lose touch with that
type of stuff, and that to me, the Grassroos stuff
always does matter, and then obviously the Middlecoff mailbag do

(04:24):
it every week. I banged out a bunch of guys
questions earlier in the week, and then I've reached out
to a bunch of you guys on direct Message. You
can always slide up in my DMS at John Middlecoff
as my Instagram handle DM's wide open. Ask me any
questions you want, football, we're just about life or anything.
It just hit me up and then we'll answer it here.
But I'm gonna start with Zeke and big story. I

(04:46):
might have been Monday that he's thinking about holding out,
and my job will set the floor. And it made
me think when I was younger, you like, you know,
probably like five to fifty. I mean until I left
the house in high schoo I was not an easy
kid to raise. I used to get in a lot
of trouble. It's not like big trouble, but I used
to just push the envelope. I would get grounded a lot.

(05:08):
I would just get in trouble. But I was also good.
I got good grades, played sports, so you know, there's
a balance to me. But I used to push my
parents buttons. One day karma will get me bad whenever
I have children. My unborn children will probably not be
easy to raise. But I also like to play with
my friends or whatever. And then while I'd be in trouble,
I'd ask my dad, Yo, can I go spend the

(05:28):
night at Ryan's house? Yo? Can I go hang out
with Travis? And they'd say no. Well, you would never
ask when you were in the middle of being grounded
for the weekend, right, you knew you wouldn't have the
option to go over, to hang out with your friends,
go sleep over, go do whatever you wanted to do.
If you ask when you were in trouble, usually if
you were doing everything the right way, you get to

(05:49):
do whatever you wanted to do. And I turned thinking today,
I've thought this a couple of days ago, because one,
this should be an universal take if a Zeke Elliott,
And again, I don't want to go in too hard
because we don't know what he's gonna do. But the
reports from I know Charles Robinson of Yahoo clearly is
pretty close. Must be tied in with the agent because

(06:11):
he's known different thing about Zeke and differ stuff with
the Cowboys over the years, and he thinks that they're
at an impass right now, and he's probably gonna hold out.
And I just and I get that Twitter and the
media tends to be very very pro player, and I
would imagine if you listen to me, you think I'm
like anti player. I'm really like, I understand where Melvin

(06:32):
Gordon's coming from. Hell, I understand where Clowney's coming from.
I'm not gonna sign the franchise tag. I know you
don't want me long term. This one bothers me though,
And this is one of those that in twenty nineteen,
you watch no one in the media, I would imagine
it will be that critical of Zeke And that's just
wrong because if Zeke holds out, you don't get to
hold out when you've been in trouble with the law

(06:55):
every single year since you've been in the NFL, and
the number one guy who supported you, the number one
person was the owner of the team. The reason you're
on the Cowboys was because back in the day when
they were having the draft meetings. Remember remember a lot
of people in those Cowboys draft meetings wanted Jalien Ramsey
and you can't draft a running back at number four.

(07:17):
And Jerry Jones said screw that. I'm taking Zeke Elliott
and every single time that he's got in trouble, Jerry
Jones has got his back, and now and just again,
after Jerry's got his back recently that thing that happened
in Vegas, he's gonna hold out in training camp. Here's
the other thing. It's not like Zeke Elliott has been underpaid.

(07:38):
When he signed his contract when he was the number
four overall pick, he got twenty four and a half
million dollars guaranteed. His fifth year option next year will
pay him nine million dollars. So when five years he'll
have made thirty five or thirty thirty three and a
half million dollars. We know for a fact that Jerry

(07:58):
Jones likes him, wants to play him, and wants him
to be a part of this team long term. This
is not a Clowney situation where Clowney looks at Bill
O'Brien and goes, I know you don't really like me
as a player. One two, I know you don't want
to pay me long term. I get that. This is Zeke.
This guy's been like a father figure to you. He's

(08:19):
gotten to the mat for you. He has he drafted you,
and he wants you to be a main part of
this team for a long time, and you're gonna slap
him in the face and not show up to training
camp after you've just been in trouble again. I as
someone that never been in really big trouble with the law.
One time I almost got in big trouble with the law,

(08:40):
and my dad saved me. I got it was a
bad deal. I mean it's so far ago. It was
my senior year in high school. I was out super late.
Usually my parents are a little older, they went to
bed early. For whatever reason, he stayed up this night.
I don't know why he did, and I probably should
have got a dui in front of our house. It
would have been a really bad deal. My senior in

(09:01):
high school, he came out. I mean it was probably
three o'clock in the morning. Again. By the time I
left high school, i'd live life and talk to cop
out of it. And I was in big, big trouble
for a while. I mean big trouble. I mean when
I just couldn't go anywhere. It sucked. But I didn't like,
Hey can I go hang out at Mike's house? You know,
I just kind of laid low, like, hey, Zeke, hey bro,

(09:25):
maybe it's time for you to lay low. Remember two
years ago you got to spend it for six games,
Jerry got in a fight with the commissioner. Remember this
year when every time that it seems like you're get
in trouble once every three months, Jerry's always got your back,
and now you're gonna hold out. A complete slap into
Jerry Jones's face. If I was a Cowboys fan, I'd

(09:46):
be borderline offended. Again, I struck. I feel like I'm
going all in. I don't even know if he's gonna
hold out. There's a chance he doesn't hold out, because
he should not hold out. I get why Melvin Gordon
holds out. He's always injured and he knows that he's
gonna to get one contract. Well, Zeke's pretty durable one
and two, he's been highly paid. He was a fourth
overall pick. After next year he will have made thirty

(10:09):
three and a half million dollars and he has an
owner that wants to pay him long term. But you
do not get to hold out when you're in constant trouble.
That's not the way this thing works. You know, you
just you can't get in trouble with the law once
every other month and then and have the organization support
you at every single turn, and then you turn in

(10:30):
kind of selfish and I get agents super greedy. Obviously
the agent wants more money. That's more money for his pocket.
But Zeke should have some self awareness here, Like if
you told me Dak was holding out, if you told
me that Dak's not showing up a training him, I'd go,
you know what, He's played three years at a very
very low price. He's a quarterback and he's a good guy.

(10:54):
He's been in zero trouble, Like, yeah, he might have
a little leverage, Like I'm sorry, Zeke, you zero I repeat.
You could argue he's in the negative stratosphere of leverage.
And honestly, buddy, in twenty nineteen, I get social media
will support you because they hate the man. They hate
the owner, always taking the advantage of the employee. Like,

(11:16):
no one should feel sorry for Zeke here. Twitter should
borderline turn on Zeke if he holds out, because it's
a joke. I mean, I mean it really is if
social media if he does hold out, and social media
is like Zeke's in the right, I think we've officially
jumped the shark, and I no longer I mean, I
try to rarely now take Twitter that seriously, but I

(11:38):
will officially retire from ever taking anything ever said on
Twitter seriously. Again. If the overwhelming consensus is Zeke is
Zeke's getting screwed, he's in the right. Jerry deserves to
pay him more money. Because we're teeter tottering on that
right now, and I'm afraid where we're going. But this
seems pretty black and white to me. You don't get
to be suspended constantly trouble with the law, have an

(12:01):
owner that gets in fights with the commissioner over you
because he's supporting you, and then you hold out when
you know you think you should make a little more
money even though you're already making a ton and have
a ton more coming to you, and have an owner.
And i'd say this for Dak two while his situations differently.
Here's the thing, like, if you play for Belichick, yeah,
he probably wants to get rid of you, right, If
you play for Howie, the moment you slip, he'll get

(12:23):
rid of you. You play for Jerry and he drafted you.
He just wants you. He's going to pay you like
you have the most loyal player guy, I mean Sean
Lee has been on the team for twenty five years.
Sean Lee gets hurt every year. Jerry loved Romo, I
mean Jerry if anything is too emotional with his players, Zeke,
take a deep breath top having your agent and some

(12:46):
of your friends whispered dumb nothings into your ear about
how you're getting screwed. You're not my man. You're in
a fantastic situation. You should ride this thing to a
Hall of fame career, be a cowboy all time great
and Jerry's gonna pay you. But my advice would be
just stay out of trouble for six months and then
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Let's dive into Baker Mayfield. You know, one of the
more polarizing players right now in the NFL and one

(16:26):
of the young you know, I think a guy that
a lot of people around the NFL look like there's
going to be a franchise quarterback. One day and there
was an article written in ESPN, the magazine. I read
it the other day, and it's something that I think
about a lot. And Baker talked about, you know. Obviously
he has like this running thing with Colin and he
talks about interacting on social media. And I remember, I

(16:50):
vividly remember maybe my second year with the Eagles, like
twenty eleven, like Twitter, was nowhere near what it was now.
Even Facebook, Instagram didn't even exist, And we were going
to hire a guy to be an intern, And I
remember us googling him and reading his tweets, and one
I remember a negative we had on the guy. Would

(17:11):
he be like talking about what he was doing with
his buddies? And I look back on that now and
think how stupid that is. Like there is a generation
of people, including myself, that just conduct our lives a
little differently through social media. And I think Baker Mayfield,
like Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, even though he's on social
media now, like for the majority of their life, it

(17:34):
was just a lot different than a lot of these
young up and coming quarterbacks. Like I can tweet about
Patrick Mahomes right now, I can tweet at him, and
because I'm verified, if he has the alert, it might
pop up on his phone, Like we could probably interact
right now if I want to do, And that just
wasn't even possible a long time ago. But I also

(17:54):
think a lot of these players used stuff for good
through social media, like and I know Colin had been
on a big thing forever, like say what you want
about Peyton Manning and I was always a Peyton Manning fan.
He's a little bit fraudulent with his a million indorsements
because he endorses a ton of things that he clearly

(18:14):
does not use in his everyday life. And you could
always say one thing about Brady. He had like three endorsements.
He drives them Oserati, he wears Uggs, and he wears
a Rolex. You know, Peyton's had a little bit kind
of he had a little shack to him. The one
thing is Shack was very fun with it. Peyton acted
like he was driving a Buick Tiger. Used to be
like that too. It's kind of fraudulent. You know. When

(18:36):
I endorse a product, I use it now. Part of
me using is because they're paying me to use it,
but I'm legitimately using it. So I'll say one thing
for Baker Mayfield. He's pretty candid and transparent. I would
say the thing I appreciate about him most beside his accuracy,
which is a number one skill you have to have
as a quarterback, but as a person is he's pretty authentic,

(18:57):
like what you see is what you get, and he
is going to mature. Fall him on Instagram actually follows
new wife on Instagram. I actually think that'll help him
out a lot being married. I think one of the
biggest negatives that kind of work has worked against Kevin Durant.
He's just a single guy. He has way too much
free time that he spends on the Internet. Because Baker

(19:20):
talked about how sometimes he uses stuff on social media
for motivation, I actually don't think that's unhealthy. I think
when that rules your life and dictates your moods when
you're married, that some comment on social media is not gonna,
you know, control your life. But Kevin Durant, his moods

(19:41):
are dictated by what Colin and First take and shows
like that say where Baker Mayfield to me, there's a
balance with it. And I also think, listen, we're in
a generation. Every one of these quarterbacks under thirty years old.
We're going to interact and see part of their life
that we just didn't get to see. What Tom Brady
I mean, we kind of do with Brady down because

(20:01):
on Instagram. We never did with with Peyton Manning, we
never did with Brett Farve, we never did with the
quote unquote guys that have the quarterbackiol as Colin would say,
kind of or to them like that. The thing with
the mayfields and the MA homes, it's a little bit
harder to be a fraud. My biggest pet peeve in
life is when anyone's a fraud when you say one

(20:23):
thing and you do another. It's the Bobby Night school
of thought. Do as I say, not as I do.
I try to personally live my life. If I say something,
I actually do that thing. I despise hypocrites, and I
think a lot of these young quarterbacks, like their lives
are right in front of our faces literally because they

(20:44):
instagram and tweet everything. We get to kind of just
follow them, which is cool, and I think we have to,
you know, obviously the stuff on the field, and even
I think Odell falls under this category that I give
room for mistakes for young people, you know, especially people
in their young twenties with a lot of money. I

(21:04):
judge you when you do slappy things when you're twenty eight,
twenty nine, thirty thirty one, thirty two, like you're held
to a higher standard. Now you can argue quarterbacks or
held to a super high standard, and that's true. But
you know, I would imagine in these next couple of years,
newlywed guy has had now a lot of microscope on
him for the last couple of years. You're gonna see

(21:26):
growth in this human. It's hard, in my opinion, to
be a complete slap when you're married, when you're when
you become the quarterback, because so many people depend on you.
I'm actually less worried about anything off the field with Baker.
Maturity is focused, Like he's learned from the Duke Johnson thing,

(21:46):
because I when he said that the comments about Duke Johnson,
I crushed him here. And then a couple of days later,
report came out that a lot of people in the
locker room came up to him and they talked it out,
maybe apologize whatever, Like you get room for that. He
was a rookie quarterback. To me, it's like, is he
gonna be good enough? And that's my biggest apprehension with Baker,
who I think he's gonna be a good player, But

(22:07):
everyone has already anointed him as this stuperstar guy. Like
the least of my worries is him. You can clap
back on Twitter, That's what Twitter's for, Like I got
news for you. I never judge a player, even Durant
for just going back and forth with someone. I think
that where I do criticize and Durant takes the most
heat of anyone, it dictates Durant's life, like I don't

(22:29):
feel it dictates Baker's life. So this millennial version of
just these younger players in the NBA in the NFL,
like we have to judge them a little differently because
of the things and the exposure that they had that
the older guy's never had. I mean, I had no
enough people and have heard some of the stories about

(22:50):
Joe Montana and just some of the guys on those
famous Waltz teams. If word got out, people's jaw would
hit the floor. And I don't really think these guys
are doing it in this generation at that level because
you can't you can't hide from anything. So I think
sometimes we overreact. I thought the articles was pretty good,

(23:10):
a little bit of a fluff piece, But again, the
least of my worries right now, because I'm betting anytime
a guy gets married or in a serious relationship, I
think it just matures us because there's not a question
that we're the less mature sex. Sometimes that that just
helps us out. And the other thing, when you're starting quarterback,
you're forced into maturity. So I think at the end

(23:32):
of the day, Baker's gonna be fine. And let's call
it what it is, that there's a lot of pressure
on him this year, so fighting with people on social media, like,
I would recommend just don't even waste time with that
this season because the pressure is gonna be immense. Okay.
One thing that kind of made the rounds I asked
one was an article earlier this week from NFL dot Com.

(23:54):
Elliott Something ranked every head coach in the NFL, and
Colin had an interesting take about Belichick. The next Belichick
is Kyle Shanahan. And I just started thinking a lot
about that. Just the list, you know Belichick was one,
Sean Payton, Andy Reid, you know McVey, Doug Peterson. Yeah,

(24:16):
I don't have a list in front of me. Tomlin
was up there, hardball, but I just started thinking, Like
to me, with players, for example, it's pretty easy to go,
who's the better quarterback, Tom Brady or Peyton Manning, Who's
the better quarterback? Who would you rather have over their career?
Aaron Rodgers and Big Ben both of them have similar

(24:38):
length of resumes, right, who would you rather have? Andrew
Luck or Russell Wilson. What young player would you rather have?
Mahomes or Wentz? What We do it all the time
in the draft because they're all equals. You're both draft eligible,
and you're both twenty one or twenty years old? Right?
What point guard is better? Steph Curry, Chris Paul. They're

(25:00):
operated by a year or two an age. But when
you do coaches think about this, like, I don't even
think we should be able to This list is stupid
because how do you compare Matt Naggie, who again I'm
biased in love and I think it's gonna be a
great coach. But to Sean Payton. Sean Payton has been
a head coach now for fifteen years, Andy Reid has

(25:20):
been a head coach now for twenty years. Belichick's been
a head coach now for like twenty five years. Even
Sean McVay and Doug Peterson, who again I'm high on
all these guys. Sean McVay has been a head coach
for two seasons, and even Kyle who's of all the
young guys that I think we all think's good, his
two seasons have been shitty. But you could argue, like

(25:41):
Sean McVeigh. Let's just use this. How could I possibly
compare Sean McVeagh to Bill Belichick. Belichick has been coaching
in the NFL since nineteen seventy five. He's sixty eight
years old, and he's been a head coach in the
same place now for twenty plus years. And he's also
coached another place for six so he's had a combined
twenty five twenty six years a head coach. Sean mcvays

(26:02):
a year younger than me, he's been a head coach
for two years. Like, maybe we should just wait. There
should be separate tiers of coaches, the guys that have
ten plus years experience, Andy Belichick, Sean Payton, Tomlin Harball.
You can kind of compare with those guys, But I
can't compare Sean mcvade any of those guys. I haven't
seen him have a season to win. His starting quarterback

(26:24):
breaks his leg in September, Like I was thinking about this,
Like Sean McVay, for the most part, everything he's done,
and I think Sean McVay is good, and I think
he's gonna be a big time head coach for a
long period of time. But I haven't seen a curveball
happen in his career yet, Like it's October first, and
Jared Goff tears his ACL, like say what you want? Like,
what the reason? I know Doug's gonna be pretty good?

(26:47):
I watched Carson Wentz teares ACL and him rattle off
wins and get to the Super One winning. Last year
it happened again and they won a playoff game. Even Kyle,
who hasn't had any success yet as a head coach.
I've watched him have no quarterback yet keep them a
rale up and his team keep playing hard, then get
Jimmy and then win, and then the following year have

(27:07):
some pressure on him because they thought the Niners are
gonna be good. Jimmy tears his ACL, him keep his
head up, and then develop another young quarterback in Nick Mullen.
Now again, is Kyle ever gonna make the playoffs? I
don't know. He's been a head coach for two years.
He's thirty eight, thirty nine, forty years old. However old
he is. We're kind of comparing apples and oranges, even

(27:28):
though they're all head coaches. How can I possibly compare
Matt Naggie to I don't know I almost a Jim
John Harball. John Harball has been a head coach since
like oh seven. Matt Naggie started coaching in twenty eighteen.
Like they they don't have that much in common beside
their title. So I think these lists, like when we

(27:50):
do a player list top one hundred NFL players, unless
you're a rookie, most players have played if you're really
good between three and six years beside quarterbacks, like, there's
somewhat there's similarities between guys, right, you're all into relatively
the same era. That's not true for coaches. Some coaches
are now thirty five years old. Other guys are sixty

(28:12):
Like Pete Carroll's been a head coach at three different
places and coach at SC forever. How can I possibly
compare him to like Matt Lafleur or Bruce Arians is
sixty whatever years old and he's even unique. He's only
coach for five years now. We have a pretty good resume.
He's a pretty good coach. But I just started thinking
how stupid this list is, because how do you It's

(28:36):
just it's just it's fake. And obviously all lists are,
they don't have any meaning. But when I list a
player's list our top ten quarterbacks. It's a legitimate argument
when I listed coaches, Well if what if in ten years,
what if Kyle Shanahan coach is the forty nine ers
for ten years and he makes the playoffs seven out
of the ten. Well, at the time when we judged

(28:57):
him two years in, he didn't sniff the playoffs. What
if it's the vice versa first John McVeigh. And I'm
not saying this is gonna happen, but what if John
McVeigh doesn't make the playoffs for the next three years,
We're gonna view him differently. These guys sample sizes, if
I wanted to take the nerd analytical look at this, Like,
all of these guys sample sizes are all over the board.
That's where even when we top quarterbacks, like we always

(29:19):
compared Brady to Manning, we always kind of compared Rogers
to the big Bend group. Philip Rivers, Lucke is compared
to Wilson Mahomes, and all the young guys are all
kind of went that whole group is gonna be compared
to each other. So with coaches, I mean coach reads
over sixty. Kyle Shanahan is forty one guy's been coaching

(29:42):
since ninety nine. The other guy's been a head coach
since twenty seventeen. It's it's impossible to compare them. It
can't even it's stupid. After two years. If I was like,
you know, if this was two thousand, what do you
think Andy Reid A, how many people are like? I
don't know if he's any good? Well, obviously look a
lot different ten years later, and that the coaching the list,

(30:04):
it's to me. I just started thinking about, like, how
good is McVeagh. I got no clue. I mean, I
think he's good. Hell, I think Kyle's good. I think
Matt Naggie's good. I don't think Matt Lafloor is good.
I don't think Kingsbury's gonna be that good. I could
be wrong. In like six years, they haven't even coached.
We gotta see, right. I never thought Jim Harball was

(30:25):
gonna be that great with Niners, and he kicked ass.
He was incredible for like four years, and even you
could argue his NFL sample size is really small, Like
would Jim Harbaugh come back and be as good? I
don't know. It's much easier to judge as Sean Payton
and Andy Reid and Mike Tomlin when they have ten
plus years of experience and a resume to go off of,
well you go, well he has won the division six

(30:47):
of ten years. Yeah, yeah, that guy's pretty good. When
if Harbaugh came back and never won another NFL division
the next time he came back to the league, I
don't know. So I think this My main takeaway is
this list is stupidest thing I've ever read in my life,
because I really think it is impossible. I think the
only thing we know set in stone is Belichick's at
number one. After that, like currently, yeah, the Sean Payton

(31:12):
and Andy Reid, they should be better than McVay and
Kyle and Naggie and all those guys. If you know,
what if in ten years mcveigh's a three time Super
Bowl winner, what if Matt Naggie's a two time Super
Bowl winner? Just they have a name, a coach, you know,
they have so much of their career, unlike a player,
who if it's like you're six for seven for Kalil Mack.
For the most part, we know Kleil Max an all

(31:33):
time great player, but you're not gonna get any better,
just how long can he sustain it? Like Matt Naggie,
Sean McVay, Kyle Shanahan, they coach for like thirty more years.
Think think how young they are when they especially McVeigh.
How Sean McVay not gonna be a head coach for
like forty years? I mean, think about it. So I
guess my main takeaway is coaching lists are the most

(31:54):
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I saw something from actually a head coach and a

(34:09):
personal favorite of mine in Vic Fangio, and he said
something that resonated with me because up until I worked
in the NFL, I had never been to an NFL game.
My first NFL game was when I worked in the league.
My first ever NFL practice, it's when I worked in
the NFL. Most people do not get to experience this stuff.

(34:30):
I say it all the time about ticket prices. Definitely
with the NBA, people got to be very careful athletes
talking down on the consumer. I think they when you
become rich, you become very out of touch. And I
think there is some elements to the NFL. They've never
made more money, you know, from just media sales through
their team website. They're just they're rolling in cash, an

(34:52):
unlimited amount of cash, and if you're sitting in their seat,
they've got to be thinking it's never gonna stop. But
as we known, trust me, I'm a Netflix stockholder, things
can change on you. But there is one thing that
makes the NFL pretty special, right at least it historically
has most training camps for a long period of time.

(35:12):
Training camps used to leave the team facility and go somewhere,
usually to a smaller college. I remember Bill Walsh used
to take the team to Rockland in Sacramento. The Raiders
go up to NAPA. When I was in Philly, we
went to Lehigh. And it becomes it becomes a getaway,
you know, from for a franchise where all your focus
on football, but it also becomes a great avenue and

(35:35):
venue for your fans to watch you play. And if
anyone's ever listening to this, been to an NFL training camp, like,
it's just you get to meet the players and especially
younger people. You know what I can name, like on
one hand, the professional athletes I met before I was
ten years old. You still remember that to this day.
Byron Scott Mitch Richmond spun web, Muhammad Ali, Dusty Baker

(36:02):
basketball camp. I don't know. Dusty Baker was a coach
of the Giants at the time, but I don't even
know if that counts, but you remember that stuff. And
the one thing with training camps is nowadays all these
training camps are just staying at the team facility. And
when you do that, when I used to go, when
we in Philly go to Lehigh, there would be some days,
I swear to God, it felt like there were fifteen

(36:23):
thousand people there. And I know the Bears go somewhere,
but most teams no longer do this. And one thing
I've been reading is a lot of teams are doing
less and less open practices because of course the coach,
if it's their choice, is not going to do open practice.
You can. I mean, let's call it football is it's
a sketchy sport in terms of people steal stuff, So

(36:44):
you would send, you know, some incognito scouts to steal stuff.
I get it, but I think back in the day
people didn't worry about that. And I thought Vic Fangio
when he was tipped off. I know the Broncos run
open practices he had a great comment, I'm gonna read
this to you, missus Vic Fangie's words. I didn't realize
we had the most, but I think we have good

(37:05):
fans in Denver. Let me restart this the history of
the NFL. You had to go to college campuses back
in the day because NFL facilities didn't look like they
do now. When I first went to the Saints in
the mid eighties, we had an eighty yard grass field,
We had no cafeteria. Guys would go to a greasy
Delhi for lunch across the street. So we were forced

(37:27):
to go to small college campuses to have our two
a day practices because they had a cafeteria, because they
had classrooms, and because they had dorms to sleep in.
A byproduct of that was fans could come and watch.
I think one of the things, a small thing that
has driven the NFL to become the most popular sport
in the country is that you let people in come

(37:47):
and watch practice, people that maybe can't afford to go
to a game and maybe get an autograph from a player.
Maybe a player shakes their hand or throws them a
wet a sweat band or a glove. Do that with
a young person, and you got a fan for life,
and football has a fan for life. There's more to
be gained out of that than any advertising slogan or

(38:10):
any commercial that you put on TV. So I think
it's a good thing and all embrace it. The players
will embrace it as well. I wish there could be
more of them here, but I think about half or
less than NFL teams now that don't go to college
campuses and don't have the wherewithal to have people at
their facilities to watch practice. And I think it's a

(38:31):
little bit of a negative. And I think the one
thing he hit it on the head right there indirectly,
and fan Joe's an old school guy, and listen, I
am as progressive as you get in terms of social media,
advertising all that stuff, but there is still nothing like
meeting a human in person than an advertising campaign or
slogan on your Instagram or following the team on Twitter.

(38:52):
And one thing that's becoming abundantly clear is these practices,
the availability at them are only going to become less
and less as we move forward. And I think he
hit it another thing. The majority of people in this
country and the majority of NFL fans. Let's just say
one hundred percent of the NFL fan bubble. The majority
of those people will never attend an NFL game. Simply put,

(39:15):
they can't afford it because most people don't make that
much money. But you could go to a practice because
a lot of times they used to be free to
go to it. Maybe they cost five dollars, But you
can't afford a two hundred dollars ticket because you order
and to take your kid and to park. That's a
five hundred dollars day if you make I'm no math major,
but if you make fifty grand, that's before taxes, So

(39:36):
you actually see probably thirty five five hundred dollars a
lot of money to you and go to a NFL game.
You can't, especially if you're you know, you're paying your
capable bilit You're gonna watch it on television and it's
clear where the NFL is going because they care about
the bottom line, and you can't grassroots marketing like that.
When I when you know the Sean Jackson, I used
to watch these guys go and these kids light up,

(39:56):
and I see it with the forty nine ers to
Forrest Buckner go or Raiders Derek car or Khalil Mack.
Now the Raiders are a little different because only season
ticket holders maybe a couple of days they do or
it's open to anyone, but I don't know. I think
it might be only season ticket holders. But regardless that
interaction when a seven year old, who Khalil Mack's your
favorite player, when you get to meet that person, it

(40:17):
changes your life. I don't even think that's hyperbole I
can't imagine when I was ten years old, if I
would have got to meet Michael Jordan, or I would
have got to meet Steve Young. I got to text
with Steve Young like a month ago, and I'm trying
to get him on my other podcast with Haybraman Milkoff.
And he texts me back and he said, you know,

(40:39):
I'm super busy, text me a little later. I'm gonna
try to get him in the near future. But I
took a step back, Like I tried to play it cool.
I just realized, Steve Young just freaking texts me. I mean,
did you know what nine year old John would say
that you're at you have Steve Young's phone number. Like
this stuff does matter to young people because most must

(41:00):
become NFL fans when we're young and we see our
dad or brother like the sport, right, and we get
favorite players, and for the ninety nine percent of us,
we don't get ever to meet those players. Now it's
a little different now, like I said earlier, with social media,
but this everything in the NFL, and I think you
got to be careful with this. And I try to

(41:20):
cognitively think about this in my life because now that
I kind of own some podcasts and own stuff like money,
every dollar that comes in, like I touch, you know,
it's not like I'm working for someone in their pain.
I'm working for me. So when I get money and
you I realize these NFL owners they get money hungry
because they realize they do one hundred million dollars deal,
they keep the deal, right, they do a big marketing deal,

(41:42):
they keep the cash and it can consume you. And
I know we're on that level, but I understand. I
think most people listening. If you're if you have a
sales job and you get twenty percent on every sale
or what on certain huge sales or whatever, they can
consume you, like damn. There's a lot of money, and
you can incentivize you were the only thing you're thinking

(42:04):
about is cash. And listen, the NFL is a business,
but I say it all the time with pro sports
in general, their business is one million percent predicated on
people and the fans and the base of the people
watching and consuming their product. Because that's the reason why
ESPN and CBS and NBC pay so much money because

(42:25):
of the people. Because if you play NFL, it distributes
people watch, just like the NBA. When the NBA starts
talking crap about their fans, like you realize all this
money is because of people watching. It's like everyone pays
a lot of money to be associated with your product
is because you have a lot of people that follow you.
It's just basic numbers. And I think the NFL has

(42:46):
got to be careful. And Fangio is an old school guy,
but I think he's onto something. And I think the
NFL is coming down a slippery slope and we're already
hearing it with the next CBA. Money money, money, money, money, money, money, money, money.
And I agree all money is the most important thing
when you run a business, but you also got to
be cognizant about your consumer, about the way you're treating

(43:07):
people and maybe they're at the point where they're just
we're too big to fail. We're like the banks, right,
you can't. Obama couldn't let the Welsh Fargo or Bank
of America go under. Our country goes under. So they
had to bail them out, right, They had to bail
out the banks, like, because there was more at stake
than just the banks. There was me and you, right, so,

(43:30):
and I think there's a greater good sometimes and the
less and less as these older owners get so consumed
with their cash and they've never made more. I think
what made the NFL great? Now, what made all these
sports great? You lose touch with it a little bit.
And the players, and I'll say this about the players.
You put them in front of the fans, like at

(43:50):
these training camps. To me, they thrive like that. They're
always so good with the kids, and like Vic says,
you have a fan for life. The moment eight year
old James or Billy or Matt or Mike gets to
shake hands with Marcus Mariota or Carson Wentz or Aaron Donald,

(44:11):
I can't even imagine that feeling. And that feeling is
just dying more every year in the NFL. Yeah, they
can fall him on Twitter or Instagram, but there's something
like when you get to shake the guy's hand, or hell,
just even see him in person, where a lot of
these people will never attend an NFL game. Okay, let's
get to the Middlecoff mail back and where I answer

(44:32):
your questions. You guys, slide up in those dms, add
John Middlecoff's my Insta handle, and then I'll fire right here.
I heard Packer fan John. I know you don't think
la Flora will be a good coach for the pack
but do you think there's any chance that they will
be a nine ten win playoff team? Certainly the defense
has gotten a lot better, and with Rogers anything can happen.

(44:53):
I'll say this, I don't not like the Packers roster.
I think that, like you said, defensively, Mike Petton has
been a very good defensive coordinator in this league. They've
drafted defensive players the last several years. They had a
good offseason of signing some offensive defensive players, pass rushers.
That young quarterback jayear Alexandra looks like he's got a
chance to be a star, and when he's on Aaron

(45:16):
Rodgers is special. The thing I keep coming back to, though,
is Roger's gonna like and respect the head coach? And
I just have a hard time seeing that, I really do.
But if the like, if the Arizona Cardinals won nine games,
I'd be floored. You know, I'm trying to think if
the Bengals won nine games, I'd be floored. If the

(45:39):
Packers won nine games, I would not be floored. Now
I would have just been wrong on the floor. Now,
I'm judging him based off what I know about him
from people in the league and his press conference. So
I'm not claiming that I have like some hard evidence.
It's kind of a gut feeling, educated guests, and then
just already seeing some weird stuff happen with him and Aaron.
But they've they've won the major lady of my lifetime.

(46:01):
You know, once Ron Wolf and Homegren got there, They've
been kicking ass since ninety two. I mean, how many
losing seasons have they had since ninety two? Packer fans,
I mean you know that number? Not many? You know,
even like would McCarthy ask or I remember we said
it two years ago when they went eight and eight.
They asked them, like, you know, the team still play
hard or whatever. Do you hold your head high and said, no,

(46:23):
we're the green Bay Packers. I know McCarthy's kind of
been shipped on a lot the last couple of years.
He's right, they're the green Bay Packers. And in my lifetime,
when I think the green Bay Packers, I think Farve Rogers,
and I think winning maybe now that many super Bowls.
Obviously they've only won two super Bowls over that run,
which is kind of crazy. You know, it's pretty nuts
is you go from far Of to Rogers. You think,

(46:44):
like god, they could have won like four or five
super Bowls. And now you could say the same thing
about the Colts, like God, you got Peyton Manning and
now you have Andrew Luck. You gotta have one super
Bowl to show for it. You gotta take advantage when
you have good quarterbacks. You know, even Big Bend they've
won a couple, right, obviously Brady's the best case. But
you get a good quarterback like you got Mahomes, you
want to win like two or three. Huge Colts fan

(47:05):
and would love to know, love to know on the
Middlecoff mail bag, how many Super Bowls you believe Peyton
Manning would have been if he had Belichick on the
if he would have been with Belichick in the past
the whole time, good little Segway here, you know, I
think he would have had just as many as Brady.
They would have won oh one. He was a better

(47:26):
player earlier. They would have dominated oh one, O two,
oh three, oh four. Their defense was so good and
Manning was incredible back in two thousands. Now, the one
question would be, like one big you know, difference between
the two quarterbacks. Is Brady's a much better outside quarterback.

(47:47):
Why He's got a much better arm. You know, he
throws with more velocity. Well, when it's ten degrees outside
and the wind chill factor and he can't feel your hands,
the arm strength kind of matters. Like That's why I'll
take my chances with or Mahomes or Brady or big
young big Ben in his prime, even those couple of
years when Eli got hot. I mean, think about the

(48:07):
game's Eli one on the road against Green Bay coming
to San Francisco in that rainstorm. You know, in that game,
it matters. So I'd say about, you know, about as
many as Brady five or six, because don't ever forget Peyton.
Manning was so much better than Brady early on. Now
Brady flipped the switch in like oh seven and he

(48:29):
became Peyton Like so yeah, I'd say I'd say five.
In twenty sixteen, Mariota and had his healthiest year and
through for thirty four hundred yards, twenty eight touchdowns and
nine picks within ninety five point six quarterback rating with
Delaney Walker as his only weapon. Do you think with
the defense continuing to get better and the weapons he

(48:52):
has now Corey Davis, Derrick, Henry Walker, Who's Walker? Adam Humphreys,
rookie A. J. Brown? Is Delaney? I know he had
a bad injury last year. I wonder if he's healthy
right now. I guess we'll find out when they show
up training camp. If he's able to return and stay healthy,
the Titans gonna be a serious contender. I think the
Titans are gonna be good. I can't believe so many
people are poo pooing the Titans. They made the playoffs

(49:14):
two years ago, they won a road playoff game. Last year.
Mariota got hurt Week whatever sixteen. They had a win
or get in game Week seventeen. Now, part of that
was because the Colts started going five Titans are just good.
Like you said, they play good defense, they run the
ball and if Mariota's if they're passing games productive, they're
a playoff team. If you tell me the Tennessee Titans

(49:34):
throw for thirty five touchdowns, then that would be Mariota
or tanning Hill. I'd say, yeah, they're a playff team.
They're just a well run operation. So yeah, I think
they are. For whatever reason, they fly under the radar
because everyone's blowing the Colts, and rightfully so they've earned it.
The Texans have all these sexy players, Watt Hopkins to
Sean Clowney. They're just you know, I was gonna say

(49:56):
Honey Badger, but he's gone. Now who else am I
missing on that team? Fuller, you know, runs like a
three eight forty. But yeah, I mean, who's to say
the Texans are better than Titans? Forty nine Ers fan
from Glasgow, Scotland. Oh wow, sounds cool. I've never been there, obviously,
because I've never been in Scotland. Wanted to know your

(50:16):
opinions on the Niners possibly investing too much into players
who may be fragile this season. D Ford Kwon, Alexander
Jason Varrette, have all injury issues. Jimmy G. McKinnon coming
back from ACL's Nick Boza, he's already been a hurt.
Do you think the forty nine Ers season may depend
too much on these players stepping up and remaining healthy?
And if they don't, do you see the Niners being
the next year top of the draft. Well, the Niners

(50:39):
have had the most injuries I've ever witnessed in a
two year stretch. It's just insane. Now. I saw some
rating like the amount of actual guys that have been hurt.
It's ranked like twenty four, and I think last year
was twenty nine. So they've been up near the league lead.
But you could say that about most teams. I'd say
the different I'd say the Eagles and the forty nine Ers.

(51:02):
The number one question. Both of them are paying their
quarterbacks huge money. Can their guys stay on the field now?
At least Carson Wentz has played. Carson Wentz played way
more football than Jimmy, Like, can Jimmy G play sixteen games?
Because as I sit here and record this podcast five
fifty on July eighteenth, I don't know how I can
stay with a straight face. Yeah, I'm confident you'll play

(51:24):
sixteen games. He's literally played ten and been injured in
two of them. And the injuries one broke his shoulder
or dislocated his shoulder and the other one he tores
acl It's not like he rolls his ankle or you know,
dislocate it's a pinky. He has major injuries. So they're
depending on Nick Bosa, who I wasn't that big of
a fan on, but people in the league trying to

(51:45):
talk me into him. Okay, I'll even give him a chance. Well,
the first practice I went to this spring, I go, oh, yeah,
the Niners got a couple new defensive line I walk
all the way around the practice field, I go watch
the defensive lineman. Within two reps of just basic you know,
football on a stick. As Rich Eysen always talks about
football on a stick, you just move that football and

(52:06):
the guys just get off. This one, they actually had
a drill, like the offensive lineman was standing there. You
had to go around him. But again no pads, just
like three steps worth of drill, and he pulled his hamstring.
I mean it was like clockwork. I John Middlecoff, I
walk around the field. I didn't mean to go third
person there, and I'm standing there and I look, and
then all of a sudden, he starts limping and no

(52:27):
one really noticed. I remember Matt Mayokle. I'm sure many
of you guys follow him on Twitter. He's like the
Niners main beat guy on Twitter. And I go, man,
I think he's hurt and no one's really paying attention.
And then you see him limping around, limping around, and
then he just never goes back into practice and that
was it for his OTAs. So yeah, I think there
are injuries are a major question mark. I know everyone

(52:48):
talks about there being no parody with Clemson Ambama always winning.
I know the Pac twelve is widely considered the weakest conference,
but I think this is Oregon's best shots in twenty fourteen.
They're returning Justin Herbert, an offensive line with the most
combined starts. I think question mark, Well, if you're gonna go,
I'm gonna assume you're right. A beast Penn state wide
receiver transfer and a bevy of four and five star recruits,

(53:12):
including the number one guy. Can they win a playoff
game or two? Thanks? Yeah, they had a big time
recruiting class. I know they've nailed some JC recruits the
last couple of years, like five star guys. To me,
they have a quarterback that could be the number one
pick in the draft. Like you said, the conference is down,
but here's the thing. The South Conference is downc sucks,

(53:33):
Ucla is terrible, Arizona is not any good. Arizona State
is like competitive, but they're only a six or seven
win team. Utah's good in Colorado sucks. The North actually
is not bad. Stanford's just I mean Stanford Cal actually
is a well coached, tough operation. Oregon State stinks, but

(53:56):
obviously this team Oregon is good. And then the two
Washington schools or Chris Peterson is one of the best
coaches in the country, and Mike Leach has that thing
humming at Washington State and you open an Auburn So
in theory, yeah, I mean, the talent is there. You
have a star quarterback. Like you said, I don't know
much about this Penn State wide receiver. Now you kind
of pique my interest. I might google him after I

(54:16):
finished recording this podcast. Auburn's must win. You have to
win if you're gonna make the playoffs. You have to
win that game. And then you got to take care
of business, but just winning in your division because it's
a conference. But then they split the division. It's hard.
You know, I have to look at their schedule, but
regardless of where you play, Stanford or Washington, Washington State, like,

(54:37):
there's no guarantee that they're winning those games. It's just
difficult to win those games. And I think when you
look at their coach, you go, do they have a
guy that's good enough? And you know you wouldn't rank
you know what best, He'd be the fourth best coach
in the division because Chris Peterson. I'd put Chris Peterson,

(54:58):
Dave Sean, Mike Leach. You could rank any order one
through three and I'd listen. But those three guys are
just better than Mario Crystal Ball. And I'm a big believer.
I don't love coaches that aren't from the area coaching
the program. Now, I get he's a good recruiter, and
I get when Willie Taggart left, they had to keep
him and he's killed in recruiting. Now they have a
talented team. But you know what, people like me, he

(55:20):
can shut me up. Go twelve and oh, because if
you gave Chris Peterson this roster, I'd say, yeah, they'd
be twelve and oh, I've seen David Chago eleven and
one with way less talent. So just just win like this.
This is a and the one thing if you're an
organ fan, you go, you've seen your team with good coaches.
You guys kick ass. Vallotti for years, won a lot
of games. Chip Kelly came and took him to another level. Talent,

(55:43):
got the job done. That's what was kind of hard
with Helford. You're like, out, our team should be better,
and then the one year they were good. But this
season it's like, okay, Mario, no excuse. You get Auburn
who's kind of sneaky down and that win would might
look better than it actually is, but you can't lose
that game. You cannot lose that game, and then you
got to take care of business in conference. I'm not

(56:05):
confident in Oregon at all. That's pretty clear, I guess
if you're listening to this. But they're definitely talent the team,
and I mean the quarterback if he could take a
big step, and like you said, they always have skill
guys physically upfront on defense, they should be good, but
just can they coach, can they out coach Mike Leach,
Chris Peterson, David Shaw, because if they do out coach

(56:25):
Gus Miles on and week one? You know, in football
in general, whether it's college or the NFL. When I
say college, like, obviously, if it's if you're Oregon and
you're playing UC, David, you should kick their ass. But
any of the Power five, you know, if Alabama plays Iowa,
you know, or Oregon plays Auburn, or Stanford plays North Carolina,

(56:46):
you know, anything can happen week one, so that you
take care of business and then you know, win the conference.
Where do you rank leadership and clutchness compared to accuracy
in throwing strength in the ranking of characteristics needed to
be possessed by a quarterback? Arguing with friends, and they
love Rogers and I love Brady. I think there's more important.

(57:07):
I think there's nothing more important than the leadership. Am
I wrong? Well, you're wrong in the sense that on
the moment, once you get to the NFL, you have
the baseline talent, right, you have the good enough arm,
you have the size, you have the ability. Once you
become a starting quarterback, it's like Rogers to Jimmy g
to Brady to jamis like, all these guys have the
baseline talent to get drafted, start in the league, beat

(57:30):
out whoever their competitions, and be a starting quarterback. Then
where you're not wrong is once you're the starter. And
that's where we're saying, like nitpicking Rogers mobility compared to Brady, Like, yeah,
to me, all Brady's teammates level. Brady's ability to be
a team first guy twenty four seven three sixty five
separates him from Rodgers, Like, Brady never has issues with coaches. Now,

(57:53):
I think the counter if Aaron Rodgers was listening, he'd go, well,
Brady's had much smarter coaches than me. I've had Meadhead,
McCarthy and now I got torn Achilles Lafleur. But I
think what separates Brady and Rogers is I think at
the end of the day, Brady's just a better guy,
you know, he just and when you're when I say,

(58:14):
a better guys just easier to get along with. One.
Thing's pretty clear Aaron Rodgers doesn't get along with that
many people very easily. And at quarterback, you're dependent on everyone.
You're depending on the five guys blocking for you. You're
depending on the guy you're handing off to running it
for you. You're dependent on the receivers doing the right
thing for you. You're dependent on your offensive coordinator working
together with you. Like it's a dependent position even though

(58:36):
you're quote unquote technically in control. And I think at
the end of the day, in my lifetime, if I
had to rank top five teammates of all time, Brady
would be one. I'd put Brady and Tim Duncan one two,
one A, one B. You know who else is right there?
Steph Curry, Steph Curry want. His greatest strength, beside his
three point shooting, is how much guys like playing with him,

(58:59):
whether you're an undrafted free agent or you're a star player.
And he even makes an effort even when you don't
whatever reason, like don't even like him that much or
resent him. He flew from China all the way out
to New York even though he knew Kevin Durant was
probably gonna leave. He's just a high level, good teammate.
Steve Nash, elite teammate, you know. I think that's that's

(59:20):
a separating factor of some of the guys like Ben
has Ben kind of a questionable teammate. You know, I
say what you wanted about Eli, Manning doesn't feel like
players kind of like Eli, even though he sucks a
little down. Guys always like Eli, people like Philip Rivers.
You know, people need to like you at quarterback. And
it's easy to be an arrogant kind of asshole because

(59:41):
you're the richest. You're getting all the women, you're getting,
all the publicity, like, it's hard to kind of stay humble.
And I think one difference is that not that's not
really allowed in New England because Belichick kind of yells
at him all and keeps everyone. And now this I
give Brady credit. Brady allows Belichick yell at him, just
like if you ever read about Popovich and Duncan, Duncan

(01:00:04):
allowed Popovitch to coach him because he knew then it
kind of rolled downhill if you're I don't think Rodgers
allows that. So yeah, I think the separating factor of
the two is the leadership is mad. I mean, it
separates all the guys in the highest level. Now it
might be overblown, like I don't think Rogers like a
terrible leader, but he clearly is a little flawed for sure.

(01:00:25):
I mean Brady all day. I mean this people love
like the Chris Simms of the world, act like Aaron Rodgers,
the greatest player ever like part of being an elite,
elite quarterback, even more like you don't have to be
a great like Kobe Bryant was a terrible leader, but
he was a top ten player of all time, like Rogers.
Part of being a quarterback you have to lead a

(01:00:45):
little bit, you know, And clearly that's an issue that
some of his teammates have with him. Appreciate everyone listening.
When I come back, I guess it will be July
twenty second or twenty third the next time we talk.
We're gonna have a lot of training camps up and running,
you know, and probably my end of the week podcast,
well practice is going, so we're gett into that time.

(01:01:07):
Football is back. Three and Out Podcast never left, but
let's keep rolling. Talk to you soon. Three and Out
podcast me John Middlecoff, Tell your friends, Colin Coward podcast Network.
Appreciate y'all and have a good weekend. See you. If

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