December 11, 2024 • 50 mins
In this episode of 'The Book of Joe' Podcast, Joe Maddon and Tom Verducci react to Juan Soto's deal with the Mets. Tom joins us from Baseball's Winter meetings in Dallas and describes the reactions to the size of the deal. What other pieces do the Mets need and where will the Yankees go from here? Plus, Joe gives his thoughts on Dick Allen and Dave Parker making the cut for the Hall of Fame.
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Hey there, welcome back. You have found once again the
Book of Joe Podcast with me, Tom Berducci and of
course Joe Madden. I am live here, well maybe not live,
but I'm trying to stay alive at the Winter Meetings
Baseball Winter Meetings in Dallas, Texas, which opened with a
splash on Sunday night with a Mets in agreement with
Juan Soto on a fifteen year deal seven hundred and
(00:36):
sixty five million dollars, with a chance to get even
more with escalators to go over eight hundred million dollars.
It really did rock the industry. Joe Madden, when you
first heard about the deal in the New York Mets.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
Well, honestly, it's like, it's not nothing surprised anymore, does it?
The fact that you know you could talk about show
Hayes contract. Then you're going to make the argument, well
he does two things. Well last year he did one
thing and he did it really well, and MVP kind
of stuff. So I it's not wasn't out of the
question regarding how we the world works today. Of course,
(01:12):
it's an astronomical number. It's crazy. So much good could
be done with that amount of money. The thing that
I found interesting is that a part of the conclusion
of the deal that that really swayed it was the
fact that he got some kind of a luxury suite.
I mean, if you're making that much money, doesn't that
kind of become a moot point? I thought that was
(01:32):
kind of humorous anyway. I interested that the Yankees got
that deep into it. Also, good or bad for the game,
I don't know. I guess it's good, good or bad
for the Mets. I'm not sure yet because that's that's
a lot of a lot of hemp into one dude.
So I interesting, definitely worth conversation. Automatically, people assume the
(01:53):
Mets are like the team, but I'm not convinced yet.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Yeah, we're gonna get into what happens with the New
York Yankees after once soda. But let's talk about the
deal a little bit more, Joe. I mean, I am
personally not surprised one bit. Today's a New York Met.
I mean, I had no idea the numbers weren't to
get where they wound up. But when you have an
owner like Steve Cohene, he's worth twenty one billion dollars.
And by the way, when he bought the Mets four
(02:16):
years ago, he was worth quote unquote only fourteen billion dollars.
So he's got plenty of money. He's got an art
collection that's valued at more than one billion dollars. It's
one billion dollars just in oil, paintings and sculptures. And
he has said in the past in his collection of
art that if he sees something and he likes it
(02:38):
and he starts to think about it, if he thinks
about it, that means he likes it. If he likes it,
he's going to get it. If he forgets about it
means he doesn't like it. Basically, he buys art on
gut on what he likes, which is great because he's
got the money to do that. It's the same thing
with Juan Soto. He had it that you know, this
guy is perfect for us, and I'm gonna get him. So, yes,
(02:58):
the Yankees get into this thing. They can talk all
the want all they want about getting out of their
comfort level to make the bid that they did. But Joe,
I gotta believe when this thing started it was going
to wind up with one solo on the New York Mets.
There was no way Steve Cohen was going to be
outbid for Juan Soto. It just was not going to happen.
This is a guy who pete more than sixty million
(03:21):
dollars to have Scherzer, Berlander and McCann not play for him.
You know, he had more dead money for players not
to play for him that some teams pay their entire
actual roster. So he's got a different version of what
the norms are in baseball, a different idea of what
money is. I didn't see anyway the Yankees or anybody
else going to outbid the New York Mets.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
Your art comp makes all the sense in the world
if that's how he is, and that just fits perfectly
be having those kind of resources and really setting his
mind to something. I'm not going to be outbid. I
want this, I want this simple, I'm going to get it.
I want it. I'm going to get it. Nobody's gonna
up bid me. The only thing that could have possibly
(04:04):
withheld that was the fact that if the Yankees got
close enough that Soto would have liked it, they're enough
last year that he would want to have gone back
with Judge and whomever. But apparently that was not an issue.
Was not the case? So interesting, Like I'm saying, I mean,
I think we all have some of that in us,
within our means, like if we really dig on something,
we want something badly, like those new Mizuno irons I
just bought the other day impulsively down at the driving range.
(04:28):
You just really liked it because you can do something
like that. But that makes total sense. And again, whether
it's going to work or not work, it's just he
said that. Coming in, he made those kind of claims.
He wanted to take over New York City, and he's
doing that also when it comes to baseball, he's attempting
to hasn't accomplished that yet, but that's a big part
of his overarching plan. I believe.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Yeah. And listen, I said all along, once the Yankees
really took a fly. They didn't get in at all
on Bryce Harper when he was a free agent, right,
And they've needed a left handed compliment to Aaron Judge
all these years, and they won all these years really
without one. So along they gave up a pretty strong
package including Michael King to get Soda, knowing it was
probably only a one year deal. He was not going
(05:10):
to sign the extension. The Yankees knew that when they
traded for him. He was not going to pass up
the opportunity which we just saw to be a free
agent on the market age twenty six with the numbers
that he put up, So they took that risk. I
just didn't think one year in New York, even going
to the World Series, is going to tell je Soto, hey,
I want to stay here, I want the legacy of pinstripes.
(05:32):
I want to run shotgun with Ara Judge for the
next decade or so. No, everything was planned to have
him out there as a free agent at the age
of twenty six, just like Alex Rodriguez getting out there
years and years ago. So I don't think he was
wedded to the Yankees. I think they were just another team.
If not, you know, they were the incumbent. Don't get
me wrong, he did like it there, but if you
were banking on him giving up more money, and it
(05:53):
is more money, by the way, Joe, I know people
are saying the difference was only five million dollars. No,
it's not. If you look at the aav the difference
is more than three million. Dollars a year, and then
if you put the escalator claw with the chance to
get over eight hundred, you know it's another forty or
so million dollars. So and you also had Steve Cohen
telling you, I think you're worth more money than what
(06:14):
the team that has you right now, the New York Yankees, thinks.
Even if that's a little bit that matters to people,
Why am I meaning more to Steve Cohen than I
am to the New York Yankees. So listen, I give
the Yankees credit, I guess, for you to stay in
it as long as they could. But again, they were
not winning this bidding war, and it had nothing to
do with the motions of wearing the pinstripes.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
It's always the suitor's responsibility to indicate to whom ever
that they want you more than where you had come from.
That's pretty much how this whole thing works. So yeah,
that all makes absolute positive sense. I do agree completely
that I've never really felt as though Soda was just
like a pinstripe guy at heart. He was a mercenary
(06:52):
last year. He's been a mercenary ever since he left Washington,
being that of that age, being that good, having the
agent that he that he has all the ear marks
pointed in this particular direction, and it's it's a well
conceived plan and it worked. But again, in order to
really I think most of the time for somebody to
(07:13):
eventually end up at the worth level that you may
have for yourself or an industry may it's got to
be through a suitor. It's not normally I think the
group that has had you regardless. I mean you could
talk about loyalty, could talk about a lot of different things.
But if the reward is going to be financial, I
think it's not going to come from an outside source.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
I agree with you, and you know it takes also
a certain player. You know this Joe Wan Soto was
offered four hundred and forty million dollars from the Washington
Nationals when he was twenty three years old. I mean,
this is the guy signed out of the dr for
one point five million dollars with the with the Nationals
years ago. I mean, that's life changing money putting right
in front of you. It takes all worries off the
(07:53):
table as far as going ahead with your baseball career.
And he bet on himself. He said no. Last year
the new York Yankees came to him and they did
try it. They said, hey, let's talk about an extension,
and he said no. He is one of the most
self assured baseball players, besides being a great one that
I've ever come across. There's never any doubt in his
mind that he's going to play and play well. He
(08:14):
plays every day, He loves the game. He prepares really hard.
It takes a certain guy that turned down that kind
of life changing money and say, you know what, I'm
the bet on myself, and boy did it work out
for him. I mean it was a perfect storm because
not only did he play great, came up huge in
the postseason, but then he had the Mets sitting there,
and in the past, Joe, as you know, the Mets
(08:36):
would not get in on bidding for a Yankees player.
I can't recall it ever happening. Even when Aaron Judge
was out there. It was kind of a gentleman's agreement.
They didn't really rate each other's players. Well, all bets
were off this time, and the Mets go within two
wins of the World Series themselves, and Steve Cohen, an
owner unlike anybody in baseball, is now in the game
(08:57):
with a paddle ready to bid at the auction. It
was a perfect storm. I don't get me wrong. I
applaud the efforts of teams like the Jays, the Red Sox,
the Dodgers when a guy like Soto is out there,
just get in there and see where it's going. But
they had no shot. This was all about. The perfect
storm was just Yankee's mets. That's really all it took
to get this number over seven hundred.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
Yeah, and just to go back in time a little
bit like you're talking about getting that kind of a
offer and offer from Washington a couple of years ago.
He does. He's very self confident, he's very good at
what he does. He's young, he's you know, invulnerable in
his own mind, which is great. And I don't think
he ever thought, I don't think anybody else ever thought
that his talents would regress at the point that he
(09:40):
would not become attractive physically as a as a hitter
or whatever other part of his game. The thing is
always going to be health wise. You're betting, you're betting
on staying well, and you just you just said it too.
Doesn't miss, doesn't miss game. It's been what injury, like
briefly a couple of times. But the guy's got a
durability about him. And I think that's part of the
confidence from both him and Boris in that regard. I mean,
(10:00):
if this is a guy that had been injured a
lot coming through it, he may jumped at that a
little bit sooner. But the guy's been had a pretty
good health track record. I think that plays in the
decision making also to turn down that kind of though
that age because regardless, I know it's like kind of
doubled what he had been offered by the Washington but
that's still a substantial amount of money that he would
have had regardless, But I think you're betting on your health,
(10:23):
and I think just his history of having been healthy,
combined with his confidence, he knows how he feels in
the batter's box. He knows what he sees and how
he sees it. He knows when he talks to other
people and other players, how he feels about It's almost
like the Peter Principal. The higher up you go, you know,
you see what's there, you see what you're competing against.
And sometimes for me, even as a young minor league
(10:44):
manager and coach, I gained more confidence to high up
I got based on than I was more eye to
eye with my competition, and I could really evaluate a
little bit better. So I think all these things are
in play, But primarily he was betting on staying healthy,
and I think that was just the track record of
having done that in the past.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Yeah, I'll tell you my favorite story that Juan told me,
just to illustrate how confident and self assured he is.
It was a playoff game in Dodger Stadium against the Dodgers.
He's probably only twenty one, twenty two years old at
the time. It's a close game, and the Dodgers get
Clayton Kershaw up in the bullpen, and Sodo's spot is
coming up in the order of the next seditning, so
clearly they're getting Kershaw up to face Mon Soto in
(11:24):
a close game. And Soto chased the foul ball towards
that left field line in Dodger Stadium, and he sees
Kershaw warming up, and for one brief second they locked eyes,
and Soto said he saw Kershaw's shoulders slump, and Soto
told me, he said, I knew at that time, I
got him. I got him I was in his head.
(11:45):
And of course what happens the next time, the next
sitning when Kershaw faces Sodo, he hits a home run.
I mean, listen, was Kershaw bowed by seeing Wan Soda?
They're probably not, But this is what Juan Soto saw,
this is what he took to the plate with him.
He's just an extraordinary guy who just never gives away
a pitch, never mind in a bet. And that's what
(12:05):
I wanted to get to, Joe, because this is groundbreaking
in the industry because you mentioned show Hey and we
all said he's a unicorn, and he is, right, two
way player. He's getting paid unlike anybody else because he
plays baseball unlike anybody else. Well, there's a lot of
players not quite at this level, like Juan Soto, who's
really a hitter, a pure hitter without really a great
(12:26):
defensive quotion, not a great base running quot to it.
I don't think I've ever seen a player at the
top of the market like this who's not a five
tool player or a unicorn. I mean, go back to
Alex Rodriguez, five tool player playing shortstop. It's extraordinary and
I think it speaks to just how great of a hitter,
a generational type hitter. This guy is and I call
(12:48):
him the surest thing in baseball because of it, because
when you own the plate, it strikes own discipline the
way he does, and now you have power forty home
run power. That to me makes him sustainable in terms
of what he's doing at the age of twenty six.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
His timing was pretty good also, right, he gets the playoffs,
the World Series, and how well he does on the
particular stage that you've spoken about earlier, is timing could
not have been more perfect. How many times? How many
times in life do we go back? God, our timing
was just off the time he wasn't there. Gosh, if
I wish you'd go back in time and just change
(13:23):
a couple of things. But there's nothing he has to
Lament goes through the Yankees, they get through the series,
they're walking him to pitch the Aaron Judge, I mean,
my god, I mean that's like when it comes to
sitting down at a negotiation table. That's that's what people
are going to talk about think about. And so he
did everything right and that really speaks to how strong
(13:46):
minded he is, and that's where really success is controlled. Mentally.
I believe if you have that mental edge, even on
bad days, you still believe you're gonna win, You're gonna
beat somebody somehow. And that's that's what he does. And
he's to be that young, and sometimes being young has
it's a weird way of permitting even more confidence because
(14:07):
you don't evaluate everything. You just do think, which is
probably part of his success. But yeah, he just his
timing could not have been more spectacularly regarding this free
agency and how we responded to it.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
Yeah, I mean the only downside to this deal obviously
is the length of the contract, right, Yeah, fifteen years.
I mean that is a long time for a guy who's,
let's face it, he's with the body that he has,
I mean, pretty thick legged. I mean, he's in great
shape now. And again I'm super impressed by the way
he takes care of himself and he's out there every day.
But fifteen years is a long time and you're asking
(14:40):
him to age in an unforgiving place like New York. Right.
The back end of the deal is rough on mon Soto,
I think more than the Mets, because assuming you know
the Mets are still owned by Steve Cohen, it's not
going to prevent the Mets from making any deals. This
is not an albatross contract the way we look at
some contracts where teams can't afford to spend because they've
(15:02):
got an aging player making so much money who's not producing.
That's not the case with the New York Mets. If
you're a Mets fan, any kind of baseball fan, don't
worry about that. Again, the Mets are playing by different norms.
But that's the only downside is you know what is
Monsda like as the back end of his career. As
one GM pointed out to me when the contract was
signed at the age of thirty three, He'll be starting
(15:23):
an eight year, four hundred million dollar contract at the
age of thirty three, so the back end might not
be pretty. But again, maybe he ages really well and
he's a guy like David Ortiz who continues to produce
late in his career as a DH.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
A piece of art, right there, you go. Yeah, I
don't think that was an issue when Cohen's putting that
contract together, talking to his lieutenants, whatever, He wasn't concerned
about the lend. If that was more of a concern
to Soda than it was to him, made it permitted
him spread out the money a little bit more, possibly,
but that wasn't his concern. His concern was grabbing that
piece of art, like you suggested earlier. And they're thinking, also, okay,
(16:00):
say he doesn't run as well anymore, Say he doesn't
play defense as well, but he could dh he can hit,
you'd always he should be able to hit to a
high level for so many years to come. And the
fact that he has such great play discipline also, that's
that's not going to go away. So there was that. Regardless,
they're betting on that component of the game that he
does so well, remaining with him for many years to come.
(16:22):
So it's a piece of art in Cohen's mind, is
going to get more beautiful as time goes on, and
eventually might have to put it on the shelf somewhere
behind the glass case. But he's good with that.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Well, we get back to you. I want to talk
about the Yankees, because on Sunday afternoon, after the Yankees
had put it in their last bit, one of their
team sources told me, well, maybe sometimes plan B works
out better than Plan A. I think they saw the
writing on the wall. But can the Yankees come out
of this in a better place. We'll talk about where
the Yankees go right after this on the book of Joe. Okay,
(17:05):
Joe going to make you general manager of the Yankees,
and you just say goodbye to Wan Soto. You had
the perfect combination between Aaron Judge and Juan Soto. And
I make this point all the time, Joe that Aaron
Judge in the year when he was unanimous MVP, saw
more pitches in the strike zone than ever before in
his career. That was to me entirely due to Wan
(17:26):
Soto being on base. You know, forty two, forty three
percent of the time pitchers had to deal with Aaron Judge.
You cannot replace that. There's no one at the Yankees
consigned that will replace the effect that Jan Soto has
in a lineup. So where do you go? Where do
you take your resources? And maybe I'll give you that,
you know, forty eight million dollars on an annual basis
(17:49):
to spend, Joe, you can spread it all around all
you want. What are you going to emphasize?
Speaker 3 (17:54):
Yeah, very interesting are the is there are there power
in numbers? Is that? Is that true? Do we really
believe that or do you like them all leagues of
one basket theory?
Speaker 2 (18:06):
I like the one guy because I'll tell you why.
One Soda we just talked about. He's a sure thing,
you know what you have, right, and now that he's
not there, yes, you can go out there and sign two,
maybe three players, maybe make a trade somewhere. Now you
have to hit on all of those moves. So the
odds of you hitting on all those moves is not good.
(18:26):
With Juan Soto, that's a slam dunk. You signed one Soda,
nobody's questioning the Mets about the talent that they have.
But to replace Wan Soto, now you're going to have
to make multiple moves, and the odds that you get
them all right are not very good. That's my concern.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
Yeah, But I do believe that there's there's some guys
out there that have really good track records that I
would be, you know, really highly interested in. And I'm
okay with I'd be okay with that if I were
the Yankees. Quite frankly, I think they could really load
this thing up if they're willing to spend that money.
You're getting guys that are relatively young yet with a
great track record. And actually things that they need. For instance,
(19:02):
Bregman at third base I think would be a great addition.
I know Aeronauto's been mentioned also, but Bregman great track record.
He probably doesn't want to leave Houston. But I'm just saying,
guys like that Bellinger, if they could somehow get him
away from that group in Chicago. As an example, I
love Christian Walker. I've always loved him. This guy's been
I know he's older. I get that you don't want
(19:24):
to spend many years on him, but I think they
could really bulk this thing up because these guys are
good players, great track records. I don't think they're too old.
The big thing would be to not have to get
into them too many years in advance. And I don't
even know if that's possible or not based on the competition,
but I like the numbers thing for the Yankees right now.
I think they could really augment their group. What's his
(19:46):
name back to second base, Chisholm back at second base,
really get center field right or first base with the
Bellinger something like that. There's nice names to be had.
He I know it's not so to but no of
these guys are really good players. With great track records,
and I think they're kind of tough guys, which I like.
I like the makeup and a lot of these people
I would buy makeup right now, and some of the
(20:09):
pitchers involved too, if you could. I don't know how
they could spread this out. I don't know to what extent,
but if they're willing to take that large of a
step for one guy, I think they spread it out
amongst some really nice Major League Baseball players that I
think are going to continue along the same path through
several years. I'm okay with it. If I'm them, I
kind of find find it kind of interesting, and I'd
(20:31):
like to play that lottery. I think they think they
have a chance of hitting on several I like your theory.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
I do on paper, it sounds really good because to me,
the first thing the Yankees have to do, and Brian
Cashman finally said this is they got to get Aaron
Judge out of center field. I mean thirty two, thirty
three years old, at six foot eight and two hundred
eighty pounds six foot seven. No, I mean, I know
he can do it. You know, he's a decent enough outfielder,
(20:57):
but you know, with Soto, not there. Now it's it's
a must for them, and then whether that's you're going
to play Grisham a one ninety hitter out there and
a plus defender in center field. I like Bellinger, that's
a little bit of a flyer though. You know, on
Bellinger it could be a one year deal. He can
opt out and now you have to replace him. Again,
this I'm talking about, there's dominoes that keep falling here.
(21:18):
As you replace Juan Soto, you have to keep doing it.
I'm not saying you can't Christian Walker. I'm with you,
sign me up for Christian Walker. But he's thirty four.
He's also right handed. Fregman, you can't expect him to
hit as many home runs outside of Houston vambox. You know,
there's things they can do. I would double down on
starting pitching. I would get really involved in Corbyn Burns
(21:40):
and or Max Freed. I would. You know, seeing Garrett
Cole have some elbow issues this year, that scares me
a little bit. Radon had his issues in the postseason.
He can't go wrong to me with spending more money
on elite starting pitching. But again, Joe, I think in
your scenario, unless they get Bellinger. I'm not sure that
would happen, or even if bellies a really good fit
(22:02):
in New York, I have questions about that. That balance
that you lost with Soto's left handed bat is really
a thing for me, making a team even more right
handed around Judge, we saw what happened. Yankees didn't go
to the playoffs the previous year.
Speaker 3 (22:15):
See here's the thing I mean for me, I've always
even questioned this or thought about this. As a young
Scott manager in the eighties, so many times I thought
teams are reactive. They kind of did a dance, and
then eventually you go with what's left over as opposed
to attacking what you who you and your staff really
believe is who we want going it's going to make
us better. And I think the Yankees are in that
(22:35):
position if you're willing to commit that much money, which
they have obviously. To one guy, I was just really
drop this schematic. This is who we want and how
we wanted. This is how we believe it's going to
play as opposed to be reactionary. That's that to me
is where I would go with this whole thing. And
I and Cash, Cash is makes bold moves. I think
(22:57):
Brian does a great job. So I'm not like you're
going to be knee jerk reactive. Just to make a point.
If you really dig on people, draw up that group
right now and go get them. Don't be denied. Don't
really be counting on these minor league dudes that may
be good eventually, because I mean I keep I don't
know enough of them. I keep reading contrarian kind of
(23:20):
reports regarding their abilities or not. So the Yankees went
to the series, they got to go back and when
they have some nice players. I like their catcher a lot.
I think he's really good. I like Cabreras as a
superhu guy. I like him a lot. But overall, I mean,
I like their shortstoff. But they need to do some
things yet, and you can't. I don't know if you
can rely on to amingas I haven't seen enough of
him and the big outfield that I keep reading about him.
(23:42):
Remember his name off the top of my.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Head, Spencer Jones. Guy struck out two hundred times last year.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
Yeah, that's that's a tough one, you know. So you
don't know when eventually these guys may hit it. I
don't know. I mean, they've had their scouts up there
and they got their opinions and they got to look
at it. They got to look at it objectively and
not with any kind of bias because we signed them.
So I think it's time for bold moves. And if
you're willing to commit that kind of money to one guy,
these other guys really are good players. They're not okay,
(24:09):
they're really good. So I would be I would target
them and I'd go after them. I would make sure
that it happened. That's they're the Yankees, and I think
that may be part of their game plan right now.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
Yeah, I'm with you. Listen, They're gonna give it an
aggressive shot, There's no question about it. They're also in
competition with other clothes for these players. It doesn't mean,
as they found out, you're going to get the guys
that you want. That's why I'm saying that they're really
up against it in terms of they have holes, Joe,
they have a serious holes. Yeah, there are some answers
out there, don't get me wrong, but again, it's going
(24:39):
to be difficult to a get those players and b
make sure you have the right mix. You mentioned their
farm system. I'm glad you brought that up because the
Mets and the Yankees might be competing again, this time
for Garrett Crochet, the pitcher of the White Sox, feel
they need the trade. In fact, the White Sox people
I talk to seem to think they can get that
deal done this week. I have my doubts about that.
(25:00):
I talked with one team that was in it that said,
they're asking you for three prospects and they have not
budget off of that, and that team might spoke to
they they turned and ran. They just didn't think they
were gonna pay that kind of price. Because Garrett Crochet
is Joe. I think he's got number one quality stuff.
He doesn't have the track record. He also has only
(25:20):
two years of control before he's a free agent. He's
never really pitched a full season. They put some governors
on him last year because it was his first season starting,
and you know he him pitches great in the second half.
But again, you know, he's getting one hundred and thirty
innings for the first time. He doesn't have that background
and making thirty starts a year after year. So number
one stuff, but hasn't profiled yet in front of our
(25:42):
eyes as that type of pitcher. I certainly would be
interested in getting a Garrett Crochet, but I'm not sure
I would pay an elite price for a guy who's
got some risk because he just hasn't done it and
in two years he might be gone anyway.
Speaker 3 (25:54):
Twenty five years old.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Correct, Yeah, yeah, left handed.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
See that's the part that is interesting to me that
you just mentioned everything that's not I would be concerned
with all of that stuff. I think a big heart
of wanting to make a deal like that or not
is knowing the guy and getting some really good insight
information with the acquiring teams. Just not here's Sarah not
reading a newspaper article. Let's let's find out more about
this fellow.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
Well, he's a bulldog, and I'm sorry, I what I
like about Joe's He obviously got to the big leagues
out of the bullpen, and he went to the White
Sox right and he said, I want to start, okay,
and they kind of rolled their eyes. They thought they
had a really good bullpen piece. And man, he hit
the ground running. I mean he showed me a lot.
He's a big dude. I mean, you think Derek Scouoball
is big. He's a horse, he's got the body who
(26:38):
can be one hundred and eighty guy. So I think
he's got that right makeup that you would look for.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
Joe, Well, that's it. I mean that would be number
one for me. I would look at his armstroke regarding
how healthy I think he can remain with that, and yeah, listen,
definitely somebody's gonna go after this if he is all
of that, which I believe he is. Somebody's gonna relent.
Somebody's gonna come up with that. We just want to
give you two prospects in front of the going to say,
now we're throwing the third guy too. They might give
him a list of two or three guys and might
(27:06):
ameliorate the situation, but it's gonna happen. I did the
White Sox have to do something like that. They're not.
It's going to be so difficult to turn that battleship
around on a dime. They're gonna need to really take
a much wider birth in order to get that done.
So they got to do something like that. So they'll
shop and get their best two or three guys, or
three guys, maybe two plus a really young established major
(27:27):
league player or something to that effect. But it's going
to happen. There's no question it's going to happen. And
that's where the Yankees whomever could get really aggressive with
that too. But not having pitched that many innings in
an annual basis somewhat concerning. It is somewhat concerning because
you don't know how it's going to react to it
arm wise. I know the body looks great, but you
just never know.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
Yeah, I mean, the best comp is Tyler Glass.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
Now.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
He's a lot like Glass now and that he doesn't
have those innings built up. He's got wipe out stuff.
He's a guy who's able to start a game one
of a postseason series if you want him, and if
he gets there healthy, and you know, maybe you do
what the Dodgers did with with Glass. Now, you sign
the guy after trading for him to make sure he
doesn't leave in two years, and you take on that
risk that you know he might only be a twenty
(28:11):
star guy year after year. Last know, that's what happened
to him again. You know he's not going to get
one hundred and fifty innings, but the innings that you
do get are going to be dominant. A lot of
teams in the mix is not just the Yankees and
the Mets. But I do think that I'm with you.
They need to trade Crochet and I would not bring
him to spring training. I would try to get it done,
especially this week during the meetings, Joe, you brought up
(28:32):
I'm glad you brought this up when you talked about
the Yankees adding some high character guys that you look
at when you go back to your fifteen Cubs. I
see some similarities with the twenty four Detroit Tigers who
broke through with a lot of young players who kind
of popped at the same time, and they got a
little bit of taste of the postseason and did really well.
You know, that run the last five six of the week,
(28:54):
six weeks in the season caught a lot of people
by surprise. But now Scotty Harris, GM president is looking
to add and he's been upfront about this several times,
veteran leadership to this team to show these guys, you know,
how to take it to the next level. One of
the guys that are looking at is Paul Goldschmidt. I
think that'd be a great signing for Detroit. You know,
I don't know how much Goldie has left in the
(29:14):
Tank had a really down year, but if you break
down his numbers, he was still hitting the ball really hard.
There's a lot when you dive into some of the
secondary numbers to think that there's a bounce back in
Paul Goldschmidt. So if you're someone like Scotti Harris and
you're looking to at a veteran and if you bring
me back to the fifteen Cubs going into sixteen, how
important are those guys? Two younger everyday players And what
(29:38):
do you think of Goldschmid and Detroit?
Speaker 3 (29:39):
First they did sign Alex cob too correct.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Yes, another one of your faces.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
Yeah, no better, nobody better. So they nailed that for
their pitching staff one hundred percent. Yeah. I like the
Goldie idea a lot. And yes, I was with Scotty
with the Cub. Scotty and I used to sit and
talk often before and after game. He's a wonderful young man.
Like him a lot. And the difference, it's like the
difference between in the Lightning Bug, the difference between the
(30:05):
right and the wrong word. It's like, yes, you do
things like this, you you sign people like this that
are such difference makers. Youth is wonderful. Youth is great.
It's zuber, and it's it's energetic, it's all these kinds
of things, but sometimes he just doesn't handle the day
that well, and just you need a grown up in
a room. I like grown ups in my room quite frankly.
I think it's the best way I could describe it.
(30:27):
Somebody that's that really is able to show what it's
supposed to look like, primarily after having a horrible day
and coming back and having a normal day. Somebody that's
they're willing to tell somebody the truth and not ameliorate
the situation, not just be a pis an appeaser. Somebody
that's absolutely willing to tell somebody the truth is so important.
(30:48):
David Ross was great at that. He was really good
at that. He was one of my favorites ever of
doing that back in the day with the with the Rays.
I Gabe Kapler doing that with the Rays, Troy Percival,
I had Rik Kinsky, I had Cliff Floyd, and with
the going as you talked about the Cubs and Miguel
Montero Zobrist, we had. It was just loaded with this stuff.
(31:10):
And then you do that, you look at the twenty
sixteen World Series clubs, and you look at the youth
on the field and it was the youngest team ever
to win a World Series. But then you look at
all the professors, you know, the teachers around that group
that kept everything in line and kept everybody pointed in
the right direction. He said, I'm so happy Scotty's talking
(31:31):
that way. It's overlooked way too often. Everybody gets falls
in love with numbers to the point where they really
forget the human element. I'm glad to hear that Scotty
has not. That could be a big difference maker for
the long story short. Yeah, gultswit really fits that mold well.
If in fact, and this is where I do like
analytics a lot, if he hit the ball hard last year,
(31:52):
we could actually quantify that looking at the numbers that
matters to me. That would really be interesting to me.
From the moment ex velocity became in vogue, I've always
been a fan of that because when you look at somebody,
maybe their numbers aren't that good. There is such a
thing as bad baseball luck and malo swertde guys guys
that are bad luck, Guys that just hit a ball
(32:13):
foul by a quarter of an inch, or hit a
line drive that maybe the defense was put in the
right spot, So I would look at that. And gold
Smith's been part of a winning group. Love the way
he plays baseball. He's the perfect guy for the Tigers.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
Yeah, a quick story on Goldie. Mark de Rosa was
the manager of Team USA in a WBC last time around.
Of course, you're talking about an all star team of
all star teams, right, All the big names in baseball
are playing on Team USA. So DeRosa starts it off,
gathers a team together in the clubhouse and has this
meeting to talk to them about how they want to
win this thing and not there just to show up
(32:47):
and have fun. And he was almost done with his
speech when Goldie basically got up and said, sit down, Mark,
I've got this, and he took over the speech. I
mean in a room full of absolute stars and Goldie,
as you know, is not a loud guy. But the
fact that he stood up and basically point on Team
USA from day one, that's the kind of guy I want.
Speaker 3 (33:08):
My clubhouse didn't know that, and that even screams even louder. Yeah,
Detroit did a lot of fun things at the end
of last year, but everything that's like the perfect storm
and everything comes together at the conclusion, and that's wonderful
because you always want to get better. You're in progress.
You want to progress and not make regress. I mean,
of course, but if I don't see a team in
person with own eyeballs on the field and smell them,
(33:29):
taste and feel them all that kind of stuff, it's
hard to ascertain a lot of stuff just watching TV
or reading anything. So that would be it. If in
fact there are that all of that, and it wasn't
just things just happened to fall in place briefly, then
one or two guys would make all the difference in
the world. And a guy like Goldsmith is that kind
of guy. It's a great name and it makes all
(33:50):
the sense in the world.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
Well, Joe, there was other big news from the meetings.
On Sunday night, the Classic Baseball Committee had their balloting
their vote on the next Hall of Famers class of
twenty twenty five, and I'm sure Joe, when you heard
the results there was a smile on your face. We
will talk about the newest Hall of Famers going at
the Cooperstown right after this. Well, Joe, we had talked
(34:24):
last week before this vote by the Classic Era Baseball
Committee about you know, is it possible that two players
might squeeze through this vote? It's hard to do. You
need twelve of the sixteen people to vote for you,
and sure enough, Dick Allen and Dave Parker, congratulations, they
are Hall of famers. When you heard that news, Joe,
what'd you think?
Speaker 3 (34:45):
I absolutely smiled when I read that. You know, of
course Dick Allen's not around right now, but David is
could not have been happier for both of these guys.
I guess I've mentioned it the last time. I just
sat and spoke with Dick Allen one time in the
Quad City's Johnny O'Donnell Field right beyond home plate, prior
to batting practice, for about an hour about hitting. And
(35:05):
that's all I needed. That's all I ever wanted with
Dick Allen was just to talk hitting with him, and
I did. And David Parker one of my favorite teammate
coaches I've ever had, and I'm not even talking about
his playing career. It's a wonderful human being. So I
could not have been happier. It's a good thing. It's accurate.
It should be that way. So I'm very pleased. I
was kind of upset that TJ didn't quite make it.
(35:27):
I guess right, Tommy came close.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
Yeah, he got seven votes, so he was in third place,
need twelve five votes short.
Speaker 3 (35:34):
Okay, so that would have been the trifecta I was
looking for right there. But I'll take it with Dick
and David getting and they both deserve it. They were
both great baseball players, intimidating, intimidating people man in the
best of ways, because I was very approachable on top
of that. So I'm very happy, very happy for them.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
Yeah, it's really cool that they will be inducted together too.
There's so many similarities with Dick Allen and Dave Parker.
First of all, both won MVPs. Both of them, at
one point in their career Joe were actually the highest
paid players in the game. Both of them really found
the right manager in Chuck Tanner. Chuck Tanner brought out
the best of them. Chuck Tanner had Dick Allen with
(36:14):
the White Sox of course, State Parker with the Pirates.
And you think about what they each went through, just
the racism, whether Obertley or Cobertley, that they had to
deal with and adore I thinking Dick Allen at the
age of twenty one, the Phillies send him to Little Rock,
Arkansas Triple A ball in nineteen sixty three. Little Rock
had never had integrated baseball before Dick Allen integrated professional baseball.
(36:39):
In Little Rock, Arkansas opening day nineteen sixty three, there's
white supremacist groups outside the ballpark picketing him, issuing death threats.
This is a twenty one old kid trying to play
baseball from Western Pa. And then he goes to Philadelphia.
Actually made it to the big leagues late that year,
first full year with sixty four Philadelphia. Joe, I'm sorry.
That was not a kind place to be back in
(37:00):
the day. The Phillies actually were the last National League
team to integrate. It took them ten years after Jackie
Robinson debuted to end their all white policy in Philadelphia
with the Phillies. So he heard it from his home fans.
The guy wound up wearing a batting helmet on the
field because people were throwing things at him. And of
(37:20):
course you think about Dave Parker in Pittsburgh. You know,
a battery being thrown at him nineteen seventy nine when
he signed his big deal. And this is the early
days of free agency, the first three four years of
free agency. The money is starting to escalate, and so
is resentment from fans.
Speaker 3 (37:35):
Right.
Speaker 2 (37:36):
You know this, the more money players are making, the
more upset fans were getting, and the more they expected
the guys who made big money. So Parker's the MVP.
He signs a five year deal for just under a
million a year, and you know any o for four
is going to bring out the boobirds and worse. People
were throwing things at him. His car was vandalized, his
house three times was broken into. He was getting racist
(37:58):
mail all the time. These guys endured a lot, and
you know suffered either quietly or sometimes with Dave Parker
not so quietly. So I'm happy that they're going in together, Joe,
and that a generation of fans, if not more than one,
will now understand, hopefully read about their stories and understand
what they went through on this really long long road
(38:19):
to Cooperstown.
Speaker 3 (38:20):
That it's unconscientable to think with Dick Allen went through
in Arkansas. I mean, I think I mentioned to you
I've had some tribulations there as a young manager with
the Midland Angels with several black players on my team
in the mid eighties. Not good.
Speaker 2 (38:34):
Yeah, I mean listen, on opening a day there, the
Governor Faubus threw out the first pitch. That's the same
do called out the National Guard to bar blacks from
entering Little Rock High School.
Speaker 3 (38:44):
Yeah. I had at a real at almost a physical
running with the GM there at that time, based on
how my guys are being treated as well as there's
just some of the tactics they pulled. It was. It's
tough and this I'm just you know, I can't even
imagine what he went through at the time he went
through that city at the age of twenty one. How
do you how do you keep your head together? Where
(39:04):
do you go to for support or solace or understanding
what's happening here? Because somebody please explain this to me.
And to have death threats and have marches outside the ballpark,
that's got to scar you for life. It has to.
It has to, regardless of how tough you are, that
has to remain. You have to lose trust to trust easily.
He's got to go away and you have to somehow
(39:26):
regain that ability to trust after you've been attacked for
just showing up to play baseball. Unbelievable. I didn't know
Richie as well, Dick Allen as well, but I think
I don't think anybody was as equipped as Dave Parker
is to handle adversity, and especially when it comes to
verbal adversity. The guy is really sharp. He's got a
quick mind. He sees things clearly, could see through people
(39:50):
very easily. So of course it bothered him. But I know,
big man, strong man, he could handle that kind of controversy,
not easily, but really well because he's just built that way.
I was always so impress just with his personality and
the charisma that he demonstrated. He was just Dave was
just different in all the best ways. So, not having
(40:13):
been there, hearing with your recap, I could see David
handling that last point. Chuck Tanner being involved with both
of these guys. I knew Chuck. Actually, I won his
award one year for Manager of the Year from the
Chuck Tanner Award. I still have that probably displayed in Pennsylvania.
He had managed. He managed at Quad City, Iowa when
I was before. I had played there and we had
(40:36):
some common friends there, the Wolf family Dorothy Wolf and
Frank her husband, real supporters of the team, and all
they would talk about was Chuck Tanner and how great
he was and how wonderfully was around the group, and
how much the city loved them. There Chuck Tanner absolute
gem of a man, optimistic, positive that embodied the best
possible concepts as which you want, and a manager man
(41:00):
but then tough when he needed to be. It's not
like he was a pushover. I had to chat it
with him on the phone after I won the award,
and a god, he was great. He was so nice
to me. He didn't know me, he didn't have to be,
but he was so. Yeah, I think there's I could
understand why both of those guys flourished under Tanner, because
it's a man that would have listened easily but also
(41:21):
gave him the truth and return, which is a great, great,
great way to be.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
Yeah, I think he's underrated historically. Chuck Tanner, great manager.
And you make a good point, Joe, that you know
Dick Allen and Dave Parker were wired differently to handle
what was thrown at them. Dick Allen seemed like more
of a loaner. If you will, you know he did
bounce around the five six different teams got traded a lot.
That happened to Dave Parker later in his career because
(41:46):
everybody wanted Dave Parker because he could still hit, and
he was a consensus builder. He was a guy you
wanted in the clubhouse. He was a glue guy. There's
no question about it. Funny funny man. I'll give you
a quick line from Dave Parker. I guess he had
some kind of rivalry going with Bill Lee, you know,
the flaky left handed for the Montreal Expos. They a
lot of give and take. But somebody mentioned to Parker
(42:08):
that they might be seeing Bill Lee in this big
game coming up, that the Expos might have Lee lined
up to pitch against the Pirates. And Dave Parker said,
Bill Lee, He said, Bill Lee pitching against us, That's
like somebody walking into a lions Den wearing a suit
made of Hamburger.
Speaker 3 (42:26):
No, this is my funniest. Some of the funniest moments
with the Angels as a coach was getting on a
bus after a win and having Larry bo was sitting
up front, Dave Parker in the back of Mick, Bill
Maher in between somewhere, absolutely hysterical. I mean, these guys
could rip you apart, they could shred, they would shred,
They'd go back and forth the whole bus ride. And
(42:46):
I was always so I mean, Bo is the same way.
Bo has got a sharp intellect and sense of humor.
So I was fortunate enough to sit with Larry Boa,
David Parker, and Mick Bill Meher's one of the funniest
guys in history of Major League Baseball was the bench
coach for Charlie Manuel with the Phillies. At one point
he goes back to the Angel minor league day. So
those are the kind of things remember, and those are
(43:08):
the kind of things that really when you think of
your time in Major League Baseball and minor league baseball
or professional baseball in general, people like that that. Really
they're not afraid, man, They're not afraid. They're courageous, they're fearless,
they have thick skin, and the sense of humor is
absolutely cutting.
Speaker 2 (43:26):
It's great, absolutely great stuff. And congratulations to the family
of Dick Allen, so well deserved. I know they've waited
such a long time. It was so cool to see
because you know, Joe, when we have Hall of fame
voting on the Baseball Writer's ballot and the way people
reveal their votes before the ballot is actually announced. The
(43:47):
results are announced, we pretty much know where it's going, right,
So a lot of times there's no surprise in the announcement.
For instance, each year Row is on the ballot, next
year Cec Sabathia is on the ballot, We're going to
know pretty much where they stand before the announcement's even made.
But with these committees is a surprise. And you saw,
if you caught any of it, some video that Alan
(44:08):
family reacting to it. I mean, it's just joyous. I mean,
you feel so happy for these people with such a
long time. The only wish it happened while Dick was
still with us. But it's such a momentous occasion and
I'm glad that both of their stories now can be told.
And can't wait for next summer for the inductions.
Speaker 3 (44:24):
Yeah, I got to run down that video of the
Allen family reacting. Is there anything with David Parker?
Speaker 2 (44:30):
Was there any kind of David did speak with us
on an MLB network. Of course, David, it's been battling
Parkinson's now for oh gosh, I'm sure it's probably almost
on a decade now. You know, he looked good as
you can in the situation that he's been in. There
was a smile on his face. You could see the
joy in his face. And it's a great story and
that you know, he's a fighter. You know that, Joe.
(44:52):
It's a terrible thing for anybody to go through, but
the heart, the spirit, that's all there. It's Dave Parker.
Speaker 3 (44:58):
I'm going to try to get in touch with him somehow.
I'm going to run down that video for sure. Dick
out is such a big part of my childhood being
he was like one of my favorite hitters. That the
way he started the bat, the heavy bat that he used.
I think I mentioned I saw him hit a line
he struck Carlton struck him out a couple times, or
Cardinals and the Phillies at Conniemac first couple of times
up and then he hit an absolute rocket that I
(45:21):
swear to God. I mean, you hear these stories that
the second baseman could have jumped up and copt it
eventually hit the scoreboard and right center. It just hits
so hard. And then I've seen him Nelson Brown's knock
him on his butt and then he hits the ball
dead center in Connie Maac. He was four forty seven
to the wall. And then he used to store the
batting tunnel behind that, and then there was a little
bit of a wall up there and then the street
(45:43):
and he just went all the way out there. After
he gets knocked down, he gets stands up and he
does that. Just the different things that he did. I mean,
I was an impressionable young guy at that point. You know,
the stuff that he wrote on the dirt. I didn't
really understand that. I never really held it against him.
I didn't. I didn't know. I didn't know what was
going on. I wasn't that politically or self aware at
that point. But I did know that I love the
(46:06):
way this man started a bat and I love the
way the ball came off of it. And I just
thought he was very athletic. And he's from up in
Pennsylvania on top of that, so I could not be
happy for him and his family as well as like
I said, I'm gonna try to get in touch with David. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:20):
It reminds me of the great line from Willie Stargel
about Dick Allen because you're right. I mean I think
he once he hit a ball completely out of Connie
Back Stadium. He said, Dick, I know why they blew
you here in Philadelphia because when you hit home runs,
they're so far there's no souvenir.
Speaker 3 (46:38):
Yeah, these guys are the best, man, they're the best.
Speaker 2 (46:40):
Speaking of great lines, Joe, you always our episodes with
a great line of words of wisdom. What do you
got today for us?
Speaker 3 (46:48):
Well, I again, it's I'm getting so conflicted. I just
can't get down to one thing. Because we touched on
it earlier, the all the eggs in one basket theory,
So I had I had a research both, I would
be the one that did not necessarily want to put
all my eggs in one basket. I think I don't
know why might of that. I've always been one to
(47:08):
create other plans, But one good one comes from Mark Twain,
and I think he influenced others to say somewhat of
the same thing. And this comes from putt inhead Wilson calendar.
And I'll try to read it like he had wrote it.
Behold the food full say it put not all thine
eggs in one basket, which is but a matter of saying,
scatter your money and your attention. But the wise man
(47:30):
say it, pull all your eggs in the one basket
and watch that basket. So and under these circumstances, mister
Cohne's gonna have to watch that basket. And then and
then you got a guy like Elon Musk. We all
know who he is. It's okay to have your eggs
in one basket as long as you control what happens.
(47:51):
And that's that's you know, the the health issues and
everything else that may occur with a young player like that.
So I guess I'm somewhere in between these guys. There's
others really good, but it's it seems like history is
conflicted on whether to put your a's in one basket
or not. It's a personal philosophy. It sounds like I
(48:11):
love making sure that you watch your basket, as mister
Twain said, But then if you really can't control the
outcome of whatever you're putting in there, is it wise?
And that's another component. So anyway, I thought that was interesting.
Were we were all over that all morning. I sat
this morning and thought about because I knew this was
going to be part of the what you brought up
(48:33):
was the mon Soto deal. And so that's why I
fall under the category of liking almost like thank God
for unanswered prayers kind of a thing. It could happen
that the Yankees, if they stay aggressive and go get
who they want, they may be eventually grateful that it
didn't happen.
Speaker 2 (48:52):
Maybe the answer is to do both. You know, be
worth twenty one billion dollars and if you see something
by it and then go buy something else.
Speaker 3 (49:00):
Right, that doesn't preclude him from going after a bunch
of these guys either. You know, still Alonzo's out there
right now, and to keep reading that Stearns talking about
getting Alonso back. But if he doesn't, then there's others
like a Walker that's maybe become available to the Mets.
Who knows. But when you go all in on a Sodo,
you got to go all in everywhere else because they
(49:22):
they got you know, Bianto's. I like Bianto's a lot.
Of course, then door wonderful. But to me, there's there's
some holes in that Outfiel. There's some nice players, but
I don't know. The catcher did fine, but then he
did okay, So there I would not be surprised if
the Mets stay extremely active because they've lost some pitching too.
They got to get they got to get really active
with their pitching staff. So if you're going to sign Soto,
(49:45):
you're not done.
Speaker 2 (49:46):
I agree one hundred percent. There is more to be
heard from Steve Cohene and the New York Mets and
from us. That's it for this edition, but we'll see
you next time on the Book of Joe. Nice job, Joe,
you too, Tommy, Thank you.
Speaker 1 (50:06):
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
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Speaker 2 (00:14):
Hey there, welcome back. You have found once again the
Book of Joe Podcast with me, Tom Berducci and of
course Joe Madden. I am live here, well maybe not live,
but I'm trying to stay alive at the Winter Meetings
Baseball Winter Meetings in Dallas, Texas, which opened with a
splash on Sunday night with a Mets in agreement with
Juan Soto on a fifteen year deal seven hundred and
(00:36):
sixty five million dollars, with a chance to get even
more with escalators to go over eight hundred million dollars.
It really did rock the industry. Joe Madden, when you
first heard about the deal in the New York Mets.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
Well, honestly, it's like, it's not nothing surprised anymore, does it?
The fact that you know you could talk about show
Hayes contract. Then you're going to make the argument, well
he does two things. Well last year he did one
thing and he did it really well, and MVP kind
of stuff. So I it's not wasn't out of the
question regarding how we the world works today. Of course,
(01:12):
it's an astronomical number. It's crazy. So much good could
be done with that amount of money. The thing that
I found interesting is that a part of the conclusion
of the deal that that really swayed it was the
fact that he got some kind of a luxury suite.
I mean, if you're making that much money, doesn't that
kind of become a moot point? I thought that was
(01:32):
kind of humorous anyway. I interested that the Yankees got
that deep into it. Also, good or bad for the game,
I don't know. I guess it's good, good or bad
for the Mets. I'm not sure yet because that's that's
a lot of a lot of hemp into one dude.
So I interesting, definitely worth conversation. Automatically, people assume the
(01:53):
Mets are like the team, but I'm not convinced yet.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Yeah, we're gonna get into what happens with the New
York Yankees after once soda. But let's talk about the
deal a little bit more, Joe. I mean, I am
personally not surprised one bit. Today's a New York Met.
I mean, I had no idea the numbers weren't to
get where they wound up. But when you have an
owner like Steve Cohene, he's worth twenty one billion dollars.
And by the way, when he bought the Mets four
(02:16):
years ago, he was worth quote unquote only fourteen billion dollars.
So he's got plenty of money. He's got an art
collection that's valued at more than one billion dollars. It's
one billion dollars just in oil, paintings and sculptures. And
he has said in the past in his collection of
art that if he sees something and he likes it
(02:38):
and he starts to think about it, if he thinks
about it, that means he likes it. If he likes it,
he's going to get it. If he forgets about it
means he doesn't like it. Basically, he buys art on
gut on what he likes, which is great because he's
got the money to do that. It's the same thing
with Juan Soto. He had it that you know, this
guy is perfect for us, and I'm gonna get him. So, yes,
(02:58):
the Yankees get into this thing. They can talk all
the want all they want about getting out of their
comfort level to make the bid that they did. But Joe,
I gotta believe when this thing started it was going
to wind up with one solo on the New York Mets.
There was no way Steve Cohen was going to be
outbid for Juan Soto. It just was not going to happen.
This is a guy who pete more than sixty million
(03:21):
dollars to have Scherzer, Berlander and McCann not play for him.
You know, he had more dead money for players not
to play for him that some teams pay their entire
actual roster. So he's got a different version of what
the norms are in baseball, a different idea of what
money is. I didn't see anyway the Yankees or anybody
else going to outbid the New York Mets.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
Your art comp makes all the sense in the world
if that's how he is, and that just fits perfectly
be having those kind of resources and really setting his
mind to something. I'm not going to be outbid. I
want this, I want this simple, I'm going to get it.
I want it. I'm going to get it. Nobody's gonna
up bid me. The only thing that could have possibly
(04:04):
withheld that was the fact that if the Yankees got
close enough that Soto would have liked it, they're enough
last year that he would want to have gone back
with Judge and whomever. But apparently that was not an issue.
Was not the case? So interesting, Like I'm saying, I mean,
I think we all have some of that in us,
within our means, like if we really dig on something,
we want something badly, like those new Mizuno irons I
just bought the other day impulsively down at the driving range.
(04:28):
You just really liked it because you can do something
like that. But that makes total sense. And again, whether
it's going to work or not work, it's just he
said that. Coming in, he made those kind of claims.
He wanted to take over New York City, and he's
doing that also when it comes to baseball, he's attempting
to hasn't accomplished that yet, but that's a big part
of his overarching plan. I believe.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Yeah. And listen, I said all along, once the Yankees
really took a fly. They didn't get in at all
on Bryce Harper when he was a free agent, right,
And they've needed a left handed compliment to Aaron Judge
all these years, and they won all these years really
without one. So along they gave up a pretty strong
package including Michael King to get Soda, knowing it was
probably only a one year deal. He was not going
(05:10):
to sign the extension. The Yankees knew that when they
traded for him. He was not going to pass up
the opportunity which we just saw to be a free
agent on the market age twenty six with the numbers
that he put up, So they took that risk. I
just didn't think one year in New York, even going
to the World Series, is going to tell je Soto, hey,
I want to stay here, I want the legacy of pinstripes.
(05:32):
I want to run shotgun with Ara Judge for the
next decade or so. No, everything was planned to have
him out there as a free agent at the age
of twenty six, just like Alex Rodriguez getting out there
years and years ago. So I don't think he was
wedded to the Yankees. I think they were just another team.
If not, you know, they were the incumbent. Don't get
me wrong, he did like it there, but if you
were banking on him giving up more money, and it
(05:53):
is more money, by the way, Joe, I know people
are saying the difference was only five million dollars. No,
it's not. If you look at the aav the difference
is more than three million. Dollars a year, and then
if you put the escalator claw with the chance to
get over eight hundred, you know it's another forty or
so million dollars. So and you also had Steve Cohen
telling you, I think you're worth more money than what
(06:14):
the team that has you right now, the New York Yankees, thinks.
Even if that's a little bit that matters to people,
Why am I meaning more to Steve Cohen than I
am to the New York Yankees. So listen, I give
the Yankees credit, I guess, for you to stay in
it as long as they could. But again, they were
not winning this bidding war, and it had nothing to
do with the motions of wearing the pinstripes.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
It's always the suitor's responsibility to indicate to whom ever
that they want you more than where you had come from.
That's pretty much how this whole thing works. So yeah,
that all makes absolute positive sense. I do agree completely
that I've never really felt as though Soda was just
like a pinstripe guy at heart. He was a mercenary
(06:52):
last year. He's been a mercenary ever since he left Washington,
being that of that age, being that good, having the
agent that he that he has all the ear marks
pointed in this particular direction, and it's it's a well
conceived plan and it worked. But again, in order to
really I think most of the time for somebody to
(07:13):
eventually end up at the worth level that you may
have for yourself or an industry may it's got to
be through a suitor. It's not normally I think the
group that has had you regardless. I mean you could
talk about loyalty, could talk about a lot of different things.
But if the reward is going to be financial, I
think it's not going to come from an outside source.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
I agree with you, and you know it takes also
a certain player. You know this Joe Wan Soto was
offered four hundred and forty million dollars from the Washington
Nationals when he was twenty three years old. I mean,
this is the guy signed out of the dr for
one point five million dollars with the with the Nationals
years ago. I mean, that's life changing money putting right
in front of you. It takes all worries off the
(07:53):
table as far as going ahead with your baseball career.
And he bet on himself. He said no. Last year
the new York Yankees came to him and they did
try it. They said, hey, let's talk about an extension,
and he said no. He is one of the most
self assured baseball players, besides being a great one that
I've ever come across. There's never any doubt in his
mind that he's going to play and play well. He
(08:14):
plays every day, He loves the game. He prepares really hard.
It takes a certain guy that turned down that kind
of life changing money and say, you know what, I'm
the bet on myself, and boy did it work out
for him. I mean it was a perfect storm because
not only did he play great, came up huge in
the postseason, but then he had the Mets sitting there,
and in the past, Joe, as you know, the Mets
(08:36):
would not get in on bidding for a Yankees player.
I can't recall it ever happening. Even when Aaron Judge
was out there. It was kind of a gentleman's agreement.
They didn't really rate each other's players. Well, all bets
were off this time, and the Mets go within two
wins of the World Series themselves, and Steve Cohen, an
owner unlike anybody in baseball, is now in the game
(08:57):
with a paddle ready to bid at the auction. It
was a perfect storm. I don't get me wrong. I
applaud the efforts of teams like the Jays, the Red Sox,
the Dodgers when a guy like Soto is out there,
just get in there and see where it's going. But
they had no shot. This was all about. The perfect
storm was just Yankee's mets. That's really all it took
to get this number over seven hundred.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
Yeah, and just to go back in time a little
bit like you're talking about getting that kind of a
offer and offer from Washington a couple of years ago.
He does. He's very self confident, he's very good at
what he does. He's young, he's you know, invulnerable in
his own mind, which is great. And I don't think
he ever thought, I don't think anybody else ever thought
that his talents would regress at the point that he
(09:40):
would not become attractive physically as a as a hitter
or whatever other part of his game. The thing is
always going to be health wise. You're betting, you're betting
on staying well, and you just you just said it too.
Doesn't miss, doesn't miss game. It's been what injury, like
briefly a couple of times. But the guy's got a
durability about him. And I think that's part of the
confidence from both him and Boris in that regard. I mean,
(10:00):
if this is a guy that had been injured a
lot coming through it, he may jumped at that a
little bit sooner. But the guy's been had a pretty
good health track record. I think that plays in the
decision making also to turn down that kind of though
that age because regardless, I know it's like kind of
doubled what he had been offered by the Washington but
that's still a substantial amount of money that he would
have had regardless, But I think you're betting on your health,
(10:23):
and I think just his history of having been healthy,
combined with his confidence, he knows how he feels in
the batter's box. He knows what he sees and how
he sees it. He knows when he talks to other
people and other players, how he feels about It's almost
like the Peter Principal. The higher up you go, you know,
you see what's there, you see what you're competing against.
And sometimes for me, even as a young minor league
(10:44):
manager and coach, I gained more confidence to high up
I got based on than I was more eye to
eye with my competition, and I could really evaluate a
little bit better. So I think all these things are
in play, But primarily he was betting on staying healthy,
and I think that was just the track record of
having done that in the past.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Yeah, I'll tell you my favorite story that Juan told me,
just to illustrate how confident and self assured he is.
It was a playoff game in Dodger Stadium against the Dodgers.
He's probably only twenty one, twenty two years old at
the time. It's a close game, and the Dodgers get
Clayton Kershaw up in the bullpen, and Sodo's spot is
coming up in the order of the next seditning, so
clearly they're getting Kershaw up to face Mon Soto in
(11:24):
a close game. And Soto chased the foul ball towards
that left field line in Dodger Stadium, and he sees
Kershaw warming up, and for one brief second they locked eyes,
and Soto said he saw Kershaw's shoulders slump, and Soto
told me, he said, I knew at that time, I
got him. I got him I was in his head.
(11:45):
And of course what happens the next time, the next
sitning when Kershaw faces Sodo, he hits a home run.
I mean, listen, was Kershaw bowed by seeing Wan Soda?
They're probably not, But this is what Juan Soto saw,
this is what he took to the plate with him.
He's just an extraordinary guy who just never gives away
a pitch, never mind in a bet. And that's what
(12:05):
I wanted to get to, Joe, because this is groundbreaking
in the industry because you mentioned show Hey and we
all said he's a unicorn, and he is, right, two
way player. He's getting paid unlike anybody else because he
plays baseball unlike anybody else. Well, there's a lot of
players not quite at this level, like Juan Soto, who's
really a hitter, a pure hitter without really a great
(12:26):
defensive quotion, not a great base running quot to it.
I don't think I've ever seen a player at the
top of the market like this who's not a five
tool player or a unicorn. I mean, go back to
Alex Rodriguez, five tool player playing shortstop. It's extraordinary and
I think it speaks to just how great of a hitter,
a generational type hitter. This guy is and I call
(12:48):
him the surest thing in baseball because of it, because
when you own the plate, it strikes own discipline the
way he does, and now you have power forty home
run power. That to me makes him sustainable in terms
of what he's doing at the age of twenty six.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
His timing was pretty good also, right, he gets the playoffs,
the World Series, and how well he does on the
particular stage that you've spoken about earlier, is timing could
not have been more perfect. How many times? How many
times in life do we go back? God, our timing
was just off the time he wasn't there. Gosh, if
I wish you'd go back in time and just change
(13:23):
a couple of things. But there's nothing he has to
Lament goes through the Yankees, they get through the series,
they're walking him to pitch the Aaron Judge, I mean,
my god, I mean that's like when it comes to
sitting down at a negotiation table. That's that's what people
are going to talk about think about. And so he
did everything right and that really speaks to how strong
(13:46):
minded he is, and that's where really success is controlled. Mentally.
I believe if you have that mental edge, even on
bad days, you still believe you're gonna win, You're gonna
beat somebody somehow. And that's that's what he does. And
he's to be that young, and sometimes being young has
it's a weird way of permitting even more confidence because
(14:07):
you don't evaluate everything. You just do think, which is
probably part of his success. But yeah, he just his
timing could not have been more spectacularly regarding this free
agency and how we responded to it.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
Yeah, I mean the only downside to this deal obviously
is the length of the contract, right, Yeah, fifteen years.
I mean that is a long time for a guy who's,
let's face it, he's with the body that he has,
I mean, pretty thick legged. I mean, he's in great
shape now. And again I'm super impressed by the way
he takes care of himself and he's out there every day.
But fifteen years is a long time and you're asking
(14:40):
him to age in an unforgiving place like New York. Right.
The back end of the deal is rough on mon Soto,
I think more than the Mets, because assuming you know
the Mets are still owned by Steve Cohen, it's not
going to prevent the Mets from making any deals. This
is not an albatross contract the way we look at
some contracts where teams can't afford to spend because they've
(15:02):
got an aging player making so much money who's not producing.
That's not the case with the New York Mets. If
you're a Mets fan, any kind of baseball fan, don't
worry about that. Again, the Mets are playing by different norms.
But that's the only downside is you know what is
Monsda like as the back end of his career. As
one GM pointed out to me when the contract was
signed at the age of thirty three, He'll be starting
(15:23):
an eight year, four hundred million dollar contract at the
age of thirty three, so the back end might not
be pretty. But again, maybe he ages really well and
he's a guy like David Ortiz who continues to produce
late in his career as a DH.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
A piece of art, right there, you go. Yeah, I
don't think that was an issue when Cohen's putting that
contract together, talking to his lieutenants, whatever, He wasn't concerned
about the lend. If that was more of a concern
to Soda than it was to him, made it permitted
him spread out the money a little bit more, possibly,
but that wasn't his concern. His concern was grabbing that
piece of art, like you suggested earlier. And they're thinking, also, okay,
(16:00):
say he doesn't run as well anymore, Say he doesn't
play defense as well, but he could dh he can hit,
you'd always he should be able to hit to a
high level for so many years to come. And the
fact that he has such great play discipline also, that's
that's not going to go away. So there was that. Regardless,
they're betting on that component of the game that he
does so well, remaining with him for many years to come.
(16:22):
So it's a piece of art in Cohen's mind, is
going to get more beautiful as time goes on, and
eventually might have to put it on the shelf somewhere
behind the glass case. But he's good with that.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Well, we get back to you. I want to talk
about the Yankees, because on Sunday afternoon, after the Yankees
had put it in their last bit, one of their
team sources told me, well, maybe sometimes plan B works
out better than Plan A. I think they saw the
writing on the wall. But can the Yankees come out
of this in a better place. We'll talk about where
the Yankees go right after this on the book of Joe. Okay,
(17:05):
Joe going to make you general manager of the Yankees,
and you just say goodbye to Wan Soto. You had
the perfect combination between Aaron Judge and Juan Soto. And
I make this point all the time, Joe that Aaron
Judge in the year when he was unanimous MVP, saw
more pitches in the strike zone than ever before in
his career. That was to me entirely due to Wan
(17:26):
Soto being on base. You know, forty two, forty three
percent of the time pitchers had to deal with Aaron Judge.
You cannot replace that. There's no one at the Yankees
consigned that will replace the effect that Jan Soto has
in a lineup. So where do you go? Where do
you take your resources? And maybe I'll give you that,
you know, forty eight million dollars on an annual basis
(17:49):
to spend, Joe, you can spread it all around all
you want. What are you going to emphasize?
Speaker 3 (17:54):
Yeah, very interesting are the is there are there power
in numbers? Is that? Is that true? Do we really
believe that or do you like them all leagues of
one basket theory?
Speaker 2 (18:06):
I like the one guy because I'll tell you why.
One Soda we just talked about. He's a sure thing,
you know what you have, right, and now that he's
not there, yes, you can go out there and sign two,
maybe three players, maybe make a trade somewhere. Now you
have to hit on all of those moves. So the
odds of you hitting on all those moves is not good.
(18:26):
With Juan Soto, that's a slam dunk. You signed one Soda,
nobody's questioning the Mets about the talent that they have.
But to replace Wan Soto, now you're going to have
to make multiple moves, and the odds that you get
them all right are not very good. That's my concern.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
Yeah, But I do believe that there's there's some guys
out there that have really good track records that I
would be, you know, really highly interested in. And I'm
okay with I'd be okay with that if I were
the Yankees. Quite frankly, I think they could really load
this thing up if they're willing to spend that money.
You're getting guys that are relatively young yet with a
great track record. And actually things that they need. For instance,
(19:02):
Bregman at third base I think would be a great addition.
I know Aeronauto's been mentioned also, but Bregman great track record.
He probably doesn't want to leave Houston. But I'm just saying,
guys like that Bellinger, if they could somehow get him
away from that group in Chicago. As an example, I
love Christian Walker. I've always loved him. This guy's been
I know he's older. I get that you don't want
(19:24):
to spend many years on him, but I think they
could really bulk this thing up because these guys are
good players, great track records. I don't think they're too old.
The big thing would be to not have to get
into them too many years in advance. And I don't
even know if that's possible or not based on the competition,
but I like the numbers thing for the Yankees right now.
I think they could really augment their group. What's his
(19:46):
name back to second base, Chisholm back at second base,
really get center field right or first base with the
Bellinger something like that. There's nice names to be had.
He I know it's not so to but no of
these guys are really good players. With great track records,
and I think they're kind of tough guys, which I like.
I like the makeup and a lot of these people
I would buy makeup right now, and some of the
(20:09):
pitchers involved too, if you could. I don't know how
they could spread this out. I don't know to what extent,
but if they're willing to take that large of a
step for one guy, I think they spread it out
amongst some really nice Major League Baseball players that I
think are going to continue along the same path through
several years. I'm okay with it. If I'm them, I
kind of find find it kind of interesting, and I'd
(20:31):
like to play that lottery. I think they think they
have a chance of hitting on several I like your theory.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
I do on paper, it sounds really good because to me,
the first thing the Yankees have to do, and Brian
Cashman finally said this is they got to get Aaron
Judge out of center field. I mean thirty two, thirty
three years old, at six foot eight and two hundred
eighty pounds six foot seven. No, I mean, I know
he can do it. You know, he's a decent enough outfielder,
(20:57):
but you know, with Soto, not there. Now it's it's
a must for them, and then whether that's you're going
to play Grisham a one ninety hitter out there and
a plus defender in center field. I like Bellinger, that's
a little bit of a flyer though. You know, on
Bellinger it could be a one year deal. He can
opt out and now you have to replace him. Again,
this I'm talking about, there's dominoes that keep falling here.
(21:18):
As you replace Juan Soto, you have to keep doing it.
I'm not saying you can't Christian Walker. I'm with you,
sign me up for Christian Walker. But he's thirty four.
He's also right handed. Fregman, you can't expect him to
hit as many home runs outside of Houston vambox. You know,
there's things they can do. I would double down on
starting pitching. I would get really involved in Corbyn Burns
(21:40):
and or Max Freed. I would. You know, seeing Garrett
Cole have some elbow issues this year, that scares me
a little bit. Radon had his issues in the postseason.
He can't go wrong to me with spending more money
on elite starting pitching. But again, Joe, I think in
your scenario, unless they get Bellinger. I'm not sure that
would happen, or even if bellies a really good fit
(22:02):
in New York, I have questions about that. That balance
that you lost with Soto's left handed bat is really
a thing for me, making a team even more right
handed around Judge, we saw what happened. Yankees didn't go
to the playoffs the previous year.
Speaker 3 (22:15):
See here's the thing I mean for me, I've always
even questioned this or thought about this. As a young
Scott manager in the eighties, so many times I thought
teams are reactive. They kind of did a dance, and
then eventually you go with what's left over as opposed
to attacking what you who you and your staff really
believe is who we want going it's going to make
us better. And I think the Yankees are in that
(22:35):
position if you're willing to commit that much money, which
they have obviously. To one guy, I was just really
drop this schematic. This is who we want and how
we wanted. This is how we believe it's going to
play as opposed to be reactionary. That's that to me
is where I would go with this whole thing. And
I and Cash, Cash is makes bold moves. I think
(22:57):
Brian does a great job. So I'm not like you're
going to be knee jerk reactive. Just to make a point.
If you really dig on people, draw up that group
right now and go get them. Don't be denied. Don't
really be counting on these minor league dudes that may
be good eventually, because I mean I keep I don't
know enough of them. I keep reading contrarian kind of
(23:20):
reports regarding their abilities or not. So the Yankees went
to the series, they got to go back and when
they have some nice players. I like their catcher a lot.
I think he's really good. I like Cabreras as a
superhu guy. I like him a lot. But overall, I mean,
I like their shortstoff. But they need to do some
things yet, and you can't. I don't know if you
can rely on to amingas I haven't seen enough of
him and the big outfield that I keep reading about him.
(23:42):
Remember his name off the top of my.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Head, Spencer Jones. Guy struck out two hundred times last year.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
Yeah, that's that's a tough one, you know. So you
don't know when eventually these guys may hit it. I
don't know. I mean, they've had their scouts up there
and they got their opinions and they got to look
at it. They got to look at it objectively and
not with any kind of bias because we signed them.
So I think it's time for bold moves. And if
you're willing to commit that kind of money to one guy,
these other guys really are good players. They're not okay,
(24:09):
they're really good. So I would be I would target
them and I'd go after them. I would make sure
that it happened. That's they're the Yankees, and I think
that may be part of their game plan right now.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
Yeah, I'm with you. Listen, They're gonna give it an
aggressive shot, There's no question about it. They're also in
competition with other clothes for these players. It doesn't mean,
as they found out, you're going to get the guys
that you want. That's why I'm saying that they're really
up against it in terms of they have holes, Joe,
they have a serious holes. Yeah, there are some answers
out there, don't get me wrong, but again, it's going
(24:39):
to be difficult to a get those players and b
make sure you have the right mix. You mentioned their
farm system. I'm glad you brought that up because the
Mets and the Yankees might be competing again, this time
for Garrett Crochet, the pitcher of the White Sox, feel
they need the trade. In fact, the White Sox people
I talk to seem to think they can get that
deal done this week. I have my doubts about that.
(25:00):
I talked with one team that was in it that said,
they're asking you for three prospects and they have not
budget off of that, and that team might spoke to
they they turned and ran. They just didn't think they
were gonna pay that kind of price. Because Garrett Crochet
is Joe. I think he's got number one quality stuff.
He doesn't have the track record. He also has only
(25:20):
two years of control before he's a free agent. He's
never really pitched a full season. They put some governors
on him last year because it was his first season starting,
and you know he him pitches great in the second half.
But again, you know, he's getting one hundred and thirty
innings for the first time. He doesn't have that background
and making thirty starts a year after year. So number
one stuff, but hasn't profiled yet in front of our
(25:42):
eyes as that type of pitcher. I certainly would be
interested in getting a Garrett Crochet, but I'm not sure
I would pay an elite price for a guy who's
got some risk because he just hasn't done it and
in two years he might be gone anyway.
Speaker 3 (25:54):
Twenty five years old.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Correct, Yeah, yeah, left handed.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
See that's the part that is interesting to me that
you just mentioned everything that's not I would be concerned
with all of that stuff. I think a big heart
of wanting to make a deal like that or not
is knowing the guy and getting some really good insight
information with the acquiring teams. Just not here's Sarah not
reading a newspaper article. Let's let's find out more about
this fellow.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
Well, he's a bulldog, and I'm sorry, I what I
like about Joe's He obviously got to the big leagues
out of the bullpen, and he went to the White
Sox right and he said, I want to start, okay,
and they kind of rolled their eyes. They thought they
had a really good bullpen piece. And man, he hit
the ground running. I mean he showed me a lot.
He's a big dude. I mean, you think Derek Scouoball
is big. He's a horse, he's got the body who
(26:38):
can be one hundred and eighty guy. So I think
he's got that right makeup that you would look for.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
Joe, Well, that's it. I mean that would be number
one for me. I would look at his armstroke regarding
how healthy I think he can remain with that, and yeah, listen,
definitely somebody's gonna go after this if he is all
of that, which I believe he is. Somebody's gonna relent.
Somebody's gonna come up with that. We just want to
give you two prospects in front of the going to say,
now we're throwing the third guy too. They might give
him a list of two or three guys and might
(27:06):
ameliorate the situation, but it's gonna happen. I did the
White Sox have to do something like that. They're not.
It's going to be so difficult to turn that battleship
around on a dime. They're gonna need to really take
a much wider birth in order to get that done.
So they got to do something like that. So they'll
shop and get their best two or three guys, or
three guys, maybe two plus a really young established major
(27:27):
league player or something to that effect. But it's going
to happen. There's no question it's going to happen. And
that's where the Yankees whomever could get really aggressive with
that too. But not having pitched that many innings in
an annual basis somewhat concerning. It is somewhat concerning because
you don't know how it's going to react to it
arm wise. I know the body looks great, but you
just never know.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
Yeah, I mean, the best comp is Tyler Glass.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
Now.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
He's a lot like Glass now and that he doesn't
have those innings built up. He's got wipe out stuff.
He's a guy who's able to start a game one
of a postseason series if you want him, and if
he gets there healthy, and you know, maybe you do
what the Dodgers did with with Glass. Now, you sign
the guy after trading for him to make sure he
doesn't leave in two years, and you take on that
risk that you know he might only be a twenty
(28:11):
star guy year after year. Last know, that's what happened
to him again. You know he's not going to get
one hundred and fifty innings, but the innings that you
do get are going to be dominant. A lot of
teams in the mix is not just the Yankees and
the Mets. But I do think that I'm with you.
They need to trade Crochet and I would not bring
him to spring training. I would try to get it done,
especially this week during the meetings, Joe, you brought up
(28:32):
I'm glad you brought this up when you talked about
the Yankees adding some high character guys that you look
at when you go back to your fifteen Cubs. I
see some similarities with the twenty four Detroit Tigers who
broke through with a lot of young players who kind
of popped at the same time, and they got a
little bit of taste of the postseason and did really well.
You know, that run the last five six of the week,
(28:54):
six weeks in the season caught a lot of people
by surprise. But now Scotty Harris, GM president is looking
to add and he's been upfront about this several times,
veteran leadership to this team to show these guys, you know,
how to take it to the next level. One of
the guys that are looking at is Paul Goldschmidt. I
think that'd be a great signing for Detroit. You know,
I don't know how much Goldie has left in the
(29:14):
Tank had a really down year, but if you break
down his numbers, he was still hitting the ball really hard.
There's a lot when you dive into some of the
secondary numbers to think that there's a bounce back in
Paul Goldschmidt. So if you're someone like Scotti Harris and
you're looking to at a veteran and if you bring
me back to the fifteen Cubs going into sixteen, how
important are those guys? Two younger everyday players And what
(29:38):
do you think of Goldschmid and Detroit?
Speaker 3 (29:39):
First they did sign Alex cob too correct.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Yes, another one of your faces.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
Yeah, no better, nobody better. So they nailed that for
their pitching staff one hundred percent. Yeah. I like the
Goldie idea a lot. And yes, I was with Scotty
with the Cub. Scotty and I used to sit and
talk often before and after game. He's a wonderful young man.
Like him a lot. And the difference, it's like the
difference between in the Lightning Bug, the difference between the
(30:05):
right and the wrong word. It's like, yes, you do
things like this, you you sign people like this that
are such difference makers. Youth is wonderful. Youth is great.
It's zuber, and it's it's energetic, it's all these kinds
of things, but sometimes he just doesn't handle the day
that well, and just you need a grown up in
a room. I like grown ups in my room quite frankly.
I think it's the best way I could describe it.
(30:27):
Somebody that's that really is able to show what it's
supposed to look like, primarily after having a horrible day
and coming back and having a normal day. Somebody that's
they're willing to tell somebody the truth and not ameliorate
the situation, not just be a pis an appeaser. Somebody
that's absolutely willing to tell somebody the truth is so important.
(30:48):
David Ross was great at that. He was really good
at that. He was one of my favorites ever of
doing that back in the day with the with the Rays.
I Gabe Kapler doing that with the Rays, Troy Percival,
I had Rik Kinsky, I had Cliff Floyd, and with
the going as you talked about the Cubs and Miguel
Montero Zobrist, we had. It was just loaded with this stuff.
(31:10):
And then you do that, you look at the twenty
sixteen World Series clubs, and you look at the youth
on the field and it was the youngest team ever
to win a World Series. But then you look at
all the professors, you know, the teachers around that group
that kept everything in line and kept everybody pointed in
the right direction. He said, I'm so happy Scotty's talking
(31:31):
that way. It's overlooked way too often. Everybody gets falls
in love with numbers to the point where they really
forget the human element. I'm glad to hear that Scotty
has not. That could be a big difference maker for
the long story short. Yeah, gultswit really fits that mold well.
If in fact, and this is where I do like
analytics a lot, if he hit the ball hard last year,
(31:52):
we could actually quantify that looking at the numbers that
matters to me. That would really be interesting to me.
From the moment ex velocity became in vogue, I've always
been a fan of that because when you look at somebody,
maybe their numbers aren't that good. There is such a
thing as bad baseball luck and malo swertde guys guys
that are bad luck, Guys that just hit a ball
(32:13):
foul by a quarter of an inch, or hit a
line drive that maybe the defense was put in the
right spot, So I would look at that. And gold
Smith's been part of a winning group. Love the way
he plays baseball. He's the perfect guy for the Tigers.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
Yeah, a quick story on Goldie. Mark de Rosa was
the manager of Team USA in a WBC last time around.
Of course, you're talking about an all star team of
all star teams, right, All the big names in baseball
are playing on Team USA. So DeRosa starts it off,
gathers a team together in the clubhouse and has this
meeting to talk to them about how they want to
win this thing and not there just to show up
(32:47):
and have fun. And he was almost done with his
speech when Goldie basically got up and said, sit down, Mark,
I've got this, and he took over the speech. I
mean in a room full of absolute stars and Goldie,
as you know, is not a loud guy. But the
fact that he stood up and basically point on Team
USA from day one, that's the kind of guy I want.
Speaker 3 (33:08):
My clubhouse didn't know that, and that even screams even louder. Yeah,
Detroit did a lot of fun things at the end
of last year, but everything that's like the perfect storm
and everything comes together at the conclusion, and that's wonderful
because you always want to get better. You're in progress.
You want to progress and not make regress. I mean,
of course, but if I don't see a team in
person with own eyeballs on the field and smell them,
(33:29):
taste and feel them all that kind of stuff, it's
hard to ascertain a lot of stuff just watching TV
or reading anything. So that would be it. If in
fact there are that all of that, and it wasn't
just things just happened to fall in place briefly, then
one or two guys would make all the difference in
the world. And a guy like Goldsmith is that kind
of guy. It's a great name and it makes all
(33:50):
the sense in the world.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
Well, Joe, there was other big news from the meetings.
On Sunday night, the Classic Baseball Committee had their balloting
their vote on the next Hall of Famers class of
twenty twenty five, and I'm sure Joe, when you heard
the results there was a smile on your face. We
will talk about the newest Hall of Famers going at
the Cooperstown right after this. Well, Joe, we had talked
(34:24):
last week before this vote by the Classic Era Baseball
Committee about you know, is it possible that two players
might squeeze through this vote? It's hard to do. You
need twelve of the sixteen people to vote for you,
and sure enough, Dick Allen and Dave Parker, congratulations, they
are Hall of famers. When you heard that news, Joe,
what'd you think?
Speaker 3 (34:45):
I absolutely smiled when I read that. You know, of
course Dick Allen's not around right now, but David is
could not have been happier for both of these guys.
I guess I've mentioned it the last time. I just
sat and spoke with Dick Allen one time in the
Quad City's Johnny O'Donnell Field right beyond home plate, prior
to batting practice, for about an hour about hitting. And
(35:05):
that's all I needed. That's all I ever wanted with
Dick Allen was just to talk hitting with him, and
I did. And David Parker one of my favorite teammate
coaches I've ever had, and I'm not even talking about
his playing career. It's a wonderful human being. So I
could not have been happier. It's a good thing. It's accurate.
It should be that way. So I'm very pleased. I
was kind of upset that TJ didn't quite make it.
(35:27):
I guess right, Tommy came close.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
Yeah, he got seven votes, so he was in third place,
need twelve five votes short.
Speaker 3 (35:34):
Okay, so that would have been the trifecta I was
looking for right there. But I'll take it with Dick
and David getting and they both deserve it. They were
both great baseball players, intimidating, intimidating people man in the
best of ways, because I was very approachable on top
of that. So I'm very happy, very happy for them.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
Yeah, it's really cool that they will be inducted together too.
There's so many similarities with Dick Allen and Dave Parker.
First of all, both won MVPs. Both of them, at
one point in their career Joe were actually the highest
paid players in the game. Both of them really found
the right manager in Chuck Tanner. Chuck Tanner brought out
the best of them. Chuck Tanner had Dick Allen with
(36:14):
the White Sox of course, State Parker with the Pirates.
And you think about what they each went through, just
the racism, whether Obertley or Cobertley, that they had to
deal with and adore I thinking Dick Allen at the
age of twenty one, the Phillies send him to Little Rock,
Arkansas Triple A ball in nineteen sixty three. Little Rock
had never had integrated baseball before Dick Allen integrated professional baseball.
(36:39):
In Little Rock, Arkansas opening day nineteen sixty three, there's
white supremacist groups outside the ballpark picketing him, issuing death threats.
This is a twenty one old kid trying to play
baseball from Western Pa. And then he goes to Philadelphia.
Actually made it to the big leagues late that year,
first full year with sixty four Philadelphia. Joe, I'm sorry.
That was not a kind place to be back in
(37:00):
the day. The Phillies actually were the last National League
team to integrate. It took them ten years after Jackie
Robinson debuted to end their all white policy in Philadelphia
with the Phillies. So he heard it from his home fans.
The guy wound up wearing a batting helmet on the
field because people were throwing things at him. And of
(37:20):
course you think about Dave Parker in Pittsburgh. You know,
a battery being thrown at him nineteen seventy nine when
he signed his big deal. And this is the early
days of free agency, the first three four years of
free agency. The money is starting to escalate, and so
is resentment from fans.
Speaker 3 (37:35):
Right.
Speaker 2 (37:36):
You know this, the more money players are making, the
more upset fans were getting, and the more they expected
the guys who made big money. So Parker's the MVP.
He signs a five year deal for just under a
million a year, and you know any o for four
is going to bring out the boobirds and worse. People
were throwing things at him. His car was vandalized, his
house three times was broken into. He was getting racist
(37:58):
mail all the time. These guys endured a lot, and
you know suffered either quietly or sometimes with Dave Parker
not so quietly. So I'm happy that they're going in together, Joe,
and that a generation of fans, if not more than one,
will now understand, hopefully read about their stories and understand
what they went through on this really long long road
(38:19):
to Cooperstown.
Speaker 3 (38:20):
That it's unconscientable to think with Dick Allen went through
in Arkansas. I mean, I think I mentioned to you
I've had some tribulations there as a young manager with
the Midland Angels with several black players on my team
in the mid eighties. Not good.
Speaker 2 (38:34):
Yeah, I mean listen, on opening a day there, the
Governor Faubus threw out the first pitch. That's the same
do called out the National Guard to bar blacks from
entering Little Rock High School.
Speaker 3 (38:44):
Yeah. I had at a real at almost a physical
running with the GM there at that time, based on
how my guys are being treated as well as there's
just some of the tactics they pulled. It was. It's
tough and this I'm just you know, I can't even
imagine what he went through at the time he went
through that city at the age of twenty one. How
do you how do you keep your head together? Where
(39:04):
do you go to for support or solace or understanding
what's happening here? Because somebody please explain this to me.
And to have death threats and have marches outside the ballpark,
that's got to scar you for life. It has to.
It has to, regardless of how tough you are, that
has to remain. You have to lose trust to trust easily.
He's got to go away and you have to somehow
(39:26):
regain that ability to trust after you've been attacked for
just showing up to play baseball. Unbelievable. I didn't know
Richie as well, Dick Allen as well, but I think
I don't think anybody was as equipped as Dave Parker
is to handle adversity, and especially when it comes to
verbal adversity. The guy is really sharp. He's got a
quick mind. He sees things clearly, could see through people
(39:50):
very easily. So of course it bothered him. But I know,
big man, strong man, he could handle that kind of controversy,
not easily, but really well because he's just built that way.
I was always so impress just with his personality and
the charisma that he demonstrated. He was just Dave was
just different in all the best ways. So, not having
(40:13):
been there, hearing with your recap, I could see David
handling that last point. Chuck Tanner being involved with both
of these guys. I knew Chuck. Actually, I won his
award one year for Manager of the Year from the
Chuck Tanner Award. I still have that probably displayed in Pennsylvania.
He had managed. He managed at Quad City, Iowa when
I was before. I had played there and we had
(40:36):
some common friends there, the Wolf family Dorothy Wolf and
Frank her husband, real supporters of the team, and all
they would talk about was Chuck Tanner and how great
he was and how wonderfully was around the group, and
how much the city loved them. There Chuck Tanner absolute
gem of a man, optimistic, positive that embodied the best
possible concepts as which you want, and a manager man
(41:00):
but then tough when he needed to be. It's not
like he was a pushover. I had to chat it
with him on the phone after I won the award,
and a god, he was great. He was so nice
to me. He didn't know me, he didn't have to be,
but he was so. Yeah, I think there's I could
understand why both of those guys flourished under Tanner, because
it's a man that would have listened easily but also
(41:21):
gave him the truth and return, which is a great, great,
great way to be.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
Yeah, I think he's underrated historically. Chuck Tanner, great manager.
And you make a good point, Joe, that you know
Dick Allen and Dave Parker were wired differently to handle
what was thrown at them. Dick Allen seemed like more
of a loaner. If you will, you know he did
bounce around the five six different teams got traded a lot.
That happened to Dave Parker later in his career because
(41:46):
everybody wanted Dave Parker because he could still hit, and
he was a consensus builder. He was a guy you
wanted in the clubhouse. He was a glue guy. There's
no question about it. Funny funny man. I'll give you
a quick line from Dave Parker. I guess he had
some kind of rivalry going with Bill Lee, you know,
the flaky left handed for the Montreal Expos. They a
lot of give and take. But somebody mentioned to Parker
(42:08):
that they might be seeing Bill Lee in this big
game coming up, that the Expos might have Lee lined
up to pitch against the Pirates. And Dave Parker said,
Bill Lee, He said, Bill Lee pitching against us, That's
like somebody walking into a lions Den wearing a suit
made of Hamburger.
Speaker 3 (42:26):
No, this is my funniest. Some of the funniest moments
with the Angels as a coach was getting on a
bus after a win and having Larry bo was sitting
up front, Dave Parker in the back of Mick, Bill
Maher in between somewhere, absolutely hysterical. I mean, these guys
could rip you apart, they could shred, they would shred,
They'd go back and forth the whole bus ride. And
(42:46):
I was always so I mean, Bo is the same way.
Bo has got a sharp intellect and sense of humor.
So I was fortunate enough to sit with Larry Boa,
David Parker, and Mick Bill Meher's one of the funniest
guys in history of Major League Baseball was the bench
coach for Charlie Manuel with the Phillies. At one point
he goes back to the Angel minor league day. So
those are the kind of things remember, and those are
(43:08):
the kind of things that really when you think of
your time in Major League Baseball and minor league baseball
or professional baseball in general, people like that that. Really
they're not afraid, man, They're not afraid. They're courageous, they're fearless,
they have thick skin, and the sense of humor is
absolutely cutting.
Speaker 2 (43:26):
It's great, absolutely great stuff. And congratulations to the family
of Dick Allen, so well deserved. I know they've waited
such a long time. It was so cool to see
because you know, Joe, when we have Hall of fame
voting on the Baseball Writer's ballot and the way people
reveal their votes before the ballot is actually announced. The
(43:47):
results are announced, we pretty much know where it's going, right,
So a lot of times there's no surprise in the announcement.
For instance, each year Row is on the ballot, next
year Cec Sabathia is on the ballot, We're going to
know pretty much where they stand before the announcement's even made.
But with these committees is a surprise. And you saw,
if you caught any of it, some video that Alan
(44:08):
family reacting to it. I mean, it's just joyous. I mean,
you feel so happy for these people with such a
long time. The only wish it happened while Dick was
still with us. But it's such a momentous occasion and
I'm glad that both of their stories now can be told.
And can't wait for next summer for the inductions.
Speaker 3 (44:24):
Yeah, I got to run down that video of the
Allen family reacting. Is there anything with David Parker?
Speaker 2 (44:30):
Was there any kind of David did speak with us
on an MLB network. Of course, David, it's been battling
Parkinson's now for oh gosh, I'm sure it's probably almost
on a decade now. You know, he looked good as
you can in the situation that he's been in. There
was a smile on his face. You could see the
joy in his face. And it's a great story and
that you know, he's a fighter. You know that, Joe.
(44:52):
It's a terrible thing for anybody to go through, but
the heart, the spirit, that's all there. It's Dave Parker.
Speaker 3 (44:58):
I'm going to try to get in touch with him somehow.
I'm going to run down that video for sure. Dick
out is such a big part of my childhood being
he was like one of my favorite hitters. That the
way he started the bat, the heavy bat that he used.
I think I mentioned I saw him hit a line
he struck Carlton struck him out a couple times, or
Cardinals and the Phillies at Conniemac first couple of times
up and then he hit an absolute rocket that I
(45:21):
swear to God. I mean, you hear these stories that
the second baseman could have jumped up and copt it
eventually hit the scoreboard and right center. It just hits
so hard. And then I've seen him Nelson Brown's knock
him on his butt and then he hits the ball
dead center in Connie Maac. He was four forty seven
to the wall. And then he used to store the
batting tunnel behind that, and then there was a little
bit of a wall up there and then the street
(45:43):
and he just went all the way out there. After
he gets knocked down, he gets stands up and he
does that. Just the different things that he did. I mean,
I was an impressionable young guy at that point. You know,
the stuff that he wrote on the dirt. I didn't
really understand that. I never really held it against him.
I didn't. I didn't know. I didn't know what was
going on. I wasn't that politically or self aware at
that point. But I did know that I love the
(46:06):
way this man started a bat and I love the
way the ball came off of it. And I just
thought he was very athletic. And he's from up in
Pennsylvania on top of that, so I could not be
happy for him and his family as well as like
I said, I'm gonna try to get in touch with David. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:20):
It reminds me of the great line from Willie Stargel
about Dick Allen because you're right. I mean I think
he once he hit a ball completely out of Connie
Back Stadium. He said, Dick, I know why they blew
you here in Philadelphia because when you hit home runs,
they're so far there's no souvenir.
Speaker 3 (46:38):
Yeah, these guys are the best, man, they're the best.
Speaker 2 (46:40):
Speaking of great lines, Joe, you always our episodes with
a great line of words of wisdom. What do you
got today for us?
Speaker 3 (46:48):
Well, I again, it's I'm getting so conflicted. I just
can't get down to one thing. Because we touched on
it earlier, the all the eggs in one basket theory,
So I had I had a research both, I would
be the one that did not necessarily want to put
all my eggs in one basket. I think I don't
know why might of that. I've always been one to
(47:08):
create other plans, But one good one comes from Mark Twain,
and I think he influenced others to say somewhat of
the same thing. And this comes from putt inhead Wilson calendar.
And I'll try to read it like he had wrote it.
Behold the food full say it put not all thine
eggs in one basket, which is but a matter of saying,
scatter your money and your attention. But the wise man
(47:30):
say it, pull all your eggs in the one basket
and watch that basket. So and under these circumstances, mister
Cohne's gonna have to watch that basket. And then and
then you got a guy like Elon Musk. We all
know who he is. It's okay to have your eggs
in one basket as long as you control what happens.
(47:51):
And that's that's you know, the the health issues and
everything else that may occur with a young player like that.
So I guess I'm somewhere in between these guys. There's
others really good, but it's it seems like history is
conflicted on whether to put your a's in one basket
or not. It's a personal philosophy. It sounds like I
(48:11):
love making sure that you watch your basket, as mister
Twain said, But then if you really can't control the
outcome of whatever you're putting in there, is it wise?
And that's another component. So anyway, I thought that was interesting.
Were we were all over that all morning. I sat
this morning and thought about because I knew this was
going to be part of the what you brought up
(48:33):
was the mon Soto deal. And so that's why I
fall under the category of liking almost like thank God
for unanswered prayers kind of a thing. It could happen
that the Yankees, if they stay aggressive and go get
who they want, they may be eventually grateful that it
didn't happen.
Speaker 2 (48:52):
Maybe the answer is to do both. You know, be
worth twenty one billion dollars and if you see something
by it and then go buy something else.
Speaker 3 (49:00):
Right, that doesn't preclude him from going after a bunch
of these guys either. You know, still Alonzo's out there
right now, and to keep reading that Stearns talking about
getting Alonso back. But if he doesn't, then there's others
like a Walker that's maybe become available to the Mets.
Who knows. But when you go all in on a Sodo,
you got to go all in everywhere else because they
(49:22):
they got you know, Bianto's. I like Bianto's a lot.
Of course, then door wonderful. But to me, there's there's
some holes in that Outfiel. There's some nice players, but
I don't know. The catcher did fine, but then he
did okay, So there I would not be surprised if
the Mets stay extremely active because they've lost some pitching too.
They got to get they got to get really active
with their pitching staff. So if you're going to sign Soto,
(49:45):
you're not done.
Speaker 2 (49:46):
I agree one hundred percent. There is more to be
heard from Steve Cohene and the New York Mets and
from us. That's it for this edition, but we'll see
you next time on the Book of Joe. Nice job, Joe,
you too, Tommy, Thank you.
Speaker 1 (50:06):
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Jonas Knox
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Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.
Monster: BTK
'Monster: BTK', the newest installment in the 'Monster' franchise, reveals the true story of the Wichita, Kansas serial killer who murdered at least 10 people between 1974 and 1991. Known by the moniker, BTK – Bind Torture Kill, his notoriety was bolstered by the taunting letters he sent to police, and the chilling phone calls he made to media outlets. BTK's identity was finally revealed in 2005 to the shock of his family, his community, and the world. He was the serial killer next door. From Tenderfoot TV & iHeartPodcasts, this is 'Monster: BTK'.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.