November 18, 2025 • 48 mins
Hosts Joe Maddon and Tom Verducci discuss the Nationals naming 33 year old Blake Butera as their new manager! Joe reflects on his days as an early manager and the process of getting started. We dive into the differences between Aaron Judge and Cal Raleigh and how Judge ultimately won the AL MVP. What are some of the coming offseason moves we should expect to see? Plus, Tom notes the death of one of Joe's former players.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
Hey thereon, welcome back to the Book of Joe podcast.
It's me Tom Barducci and I'm with, of course, Joe
Madden and Joe. I'm not sure if you saw it,
(00:25):
but the other day the Nationals introduced Blake but Terra
as their new manager, and it got me thinking about
when you got the job with the Tampa Bay then
Devil Rays and you talked about, you know, you had
been an interim manager briefly with the Angels previously. But
this was holding your own baby, as you put it,
(00:45):
and Blake but Terra actually was holding his own baby.
The press conference had been held off while he was
opportunity to leave the birth of their first child, a daughter.
Congratulations to but Terra's But take me into that position, Joe,
when in your case, I mean, you waited a long time.
But Terra is just thirty three years old. When you
(01:07):
stand up there and you realize that you have a
major league team to manage.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Brother, I'm here to tell you I couldn't have done
it at thirty three. I have no idea. I'm just
being very honest with you. I was managing what I
just got done with Midland. I was about that age
maybe yeah, right around that age or so. I was
done managing in Double A. Then I became a roving instructor.
There were so many things I just didn't know. I
was just first of all, the major league vibe and
(01:35):
how it happens. I was not a player obviously in
the Major League, so that whole thing was it's all
the same, the distances on the fences, home plate, the
first home plate to the man, first base from the plate, etc.
But it was a completely different game, and I wow,
just a different world, brother, because I was absolutely intimidated
(01:56):
by it. I didn't feel confident enough in my own stuff.
I mean, I was like walking among gods and legends.
I mean the people that were involved in baseball at
that time, at least I thought that way. Now, could
I possibly think I was ready to compete against Gene
Mock or Weddy Herzog Larusse at that time, Jimmy Leland,
(02:16):
all these guys that were doing it. I just dude,
I couldn't do it. I wasn't ready. And I the
line I've always recognized for myself was, or it still is, is,
I don't want anything before it's my time to have
something another. I guess part of that is the earned
part of it, earning it. The other parts just intellectually emotionally,
(02:38):
what do I say? How do I say it? The
ability to stand up and represent your entire organization a
couple times a day through press conferences, whether it's spring training,
regular season, what's that two hundred times? And then everything
else that floats with that. Just walking into a major
league locker room and being in charge of that and
the players. There's so much going on. So I wasn't
(03:00):
ready for it, just being honest, I thought I was
ready when I was fifty one, and it took me
that long to really feel comfortable knowing what I know,
knowing what I knew at that time, and then they
can continue to grow. But God bless him, man, there's
no way I would have been considered anyway. But I'm
just saying there was no way I was ready to
do something like that at that point.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Yeah, let's talk about u Terra's path and whether he's
ready or not. Time will tell. He was a thirty
fifth round draft pick by the Rays at a Boston college,
just played a couple of years in the Raised system,
and I'm sure they recognized that this guy had a
future in the game, not so much as a player,
but that he could add something either as a coach,
(03:41):
front office, you name it. You know this, Joe. You
see some guys, right and they just have this spark
about them. For me, I'm very partial because it fits me.
He's the son of a coach, coached by his dad
growing up. I'm always leaning towards those kind of players
who grow up learning about the game from the inside
out rather than the outside in. So he was ten
years in that raise system, a little bit of did
(04:03):
a little bit of everything. He was a manager, starting
at the age of twenty five. How about that he
was the youngest manager and I think you were too
when you first started, Joe. He was the youngest manager
in the minor leagues. He started out in short season
Hudson Valley in a ball. He went on to manage
more than you know, four or five years. Twenty one
and twenty two. He was manager of the Year in
Single A. So he does have managing experience. But you know, Joe,
(04:26):
it's different being in a major league dugout. When he
manages the Nationals, it'll be his first time in a
major league dugout, and as he puts the staff together,
I would lean towards having people around me at least
a couple of guys who have been major league players
and or major league coaches. I don't know how you
feel about that, Joe, but I just think there is
(04:46):
I don't know, it's a different You're behind the red
ropes at that point, and I just know from talking
to players that there is a certain credibility they attached
to guys. I'm not saying that everybody your staff has
to be an all star Major leaguer, but I would
learn to having just that side representative even a little
bit of my.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
No doubt, no doubt. It's almost like communication skills are
more important to an expedient rise in today's game as
opposed to just pure knowledge of the game, because part
of that is I think the necessity to be exposed
to the media as often as you are. I think
that's you said Boston College that made me think about
it immediately, and listen, I came from a good background too,
(05:28):
at Lafayette whatever, but I wasn't. I just didn't have
the confidence to stand up. Maybe I would have if
I was just thrust into but I did. I don't
think I had the confidence to express myself in a
way obviously that I can now, but back then, and
I see that as being very vital, and I think
maybe that's part of the game. The ascension of these
guys is that they are perceived to be able to
(05:52):
do those kind of things, and the absolute knowledge of
the game itself is not nearly as important. And again
that's all based on the autonomy to dugout is now
longer the autonomy to dugout. It's more you know, your
working with the front office. And again I've always been
about that. I've always advocated for that. However, when he
gets to the point where it gets too heavy handed,
I didn't like that. But I think, like I said,
(06:13):
the ascension of these young guys based on their communication skills.
I guess it has to be a product of the
times where even you watch like young politicals and just
other people in different businesses that are very young, how
they speak so dramatically, like in a way that they
really know what they're talking about. Now, I'm not denigrating
(06:35):
their intelligence level, but you just combine that with experience, intuition.
Things we always talk about it has to be lacking
because you're just too most of the time, I say
ninety percent of the time from where you're too young
to know enough to really be pushed into that position.
Social media, the way people are put out front younger,
I think also lends to their confidence in what they're
(06:56):
saying and how they're saying it. And then they get
supported because after all, the way this is all working
right now, it keeps getting younger younger, younger regards to
we're choosing as our leaders, and I think a lot
of that has to do with that. I mean, just
the demographically younger people social media wise, they're pushing for this,
you know, the socialist kind of method that's being incorporated
(07:16):
into our world right now in our country. I think
a lot of it has to do with a youth
movement as opposed to the group that has been there
for a while. So I think it's all blending together,
even into baseball, where these kind of skills are being recognized.
Communication skills are being recognized more highly as opposed to
practical ability to note the whatever you're being put in
(07:40):
charge of, you don't know really as much there as
you're able to talk to somebody and communicate in a
way that ameliorates the concerns of an organization. Best way
I can.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
Say it, I think, no, I think you're one hundred
percent right, Joe. It's a lot going on there to unpack.
But I do think the ability not just to you know,
hold an interesting press conference twice a day, but it's
more about connecting with the players. And the players don't
get older, right, I mean, the players are going to
be in their twenties and early thirties for the most
part all the time. So the ability to connect to
(08:11):
the players, I think is what's important here. And it's interesting.
You know, Paul Taboni is now the president of Baseball
Operations of the Nationals. He's a younger guy. It was
actually Mike Piazza, who before but Terra was a candidate
for the job, called up to Boni and said, you
got to take a look at this guy. Piazza had
worked with him on Team Italy in the WBC. I
(08:32):
thought that was interesting, and listening to the press conference
for Butterra, I don't want to say it was execut
you speak, it was kind of typical of you know,
some of the platitudes that are out there that are
not necessarily about how he's going to run a game
or the nuts and bolts of being a manager and
what your style is as a manager. As much it
(08:53):
was about connecting with people. And in fact, the first
thing he did when he got there is he taped
a social media segment for the Nationals X channel to say, Hey,
tune into my pre conference on X and YouTube coming
up this afternoon. I mean, can you see Gene Mack
doing that. I mean that's part of the job too.
So when I say that he didn't have a you know,
(09:14):
it's basically boiler plate stuff. He basically said, the best
advice I've gotten is to just be yourself. At the
end of the day, when you talk with players and
you work with players, the last thing they look at
is how old or young somebody is. I think what's
most important to them is do you care about them
as a person first, and are you going to do
everything you can to help them become the best version
(09:34):
of themselves both on and off the field. I think
people can accomplish that in different ages and different experiences.
That's the nut of this, Joe. What I'm talking about
here is that everybody's looking for a manager who can
quote unquote connect with players, and when you do that,
you're probably going to skew younger. And I've said this before.
I think Stephen Vote became the template for managing. Now.
(09:55):
You know, he was one year out of the game,
he didn't coach one year with the Seattle Mariners, and
now he's been manager of the Year his first two
years with the Cleveland Guardians. But Terra is younger. But
this ability, or at least the from a front office perspective,
the looking for somebody who can quote unquote connect with
the players, I think that's driving these decisions more than anything.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
No question, one hundred percent right. And I have to
understand Voter is an outlier. I mean I was, I
was around the film, and I haven't been around all
these other dudes. I get it. But I know I
know Voter. I know Voter. I knew from the from
Jump Street when I had him with the Rays, and
like I said, he used to come to big league.
We had, we had the same camp and poor Charlotte
minor leaguers and major leaguers together we'd grab anytime we
(10:39):
needed somebody. Let's get Voter over here. Get Voter over
here because we just loved them being there. I mean,
he could hit, you know, we had some absolute baseball skills,
but we love this personality there. That's really almost every
time we need whatever, we need a guy he doesn't play,
that's okay, just bring voter, we'll get him in that bat.
So Steven, he's he's an outlier with all this. So
(10:59):
when you start trying to camp everybody to this, dude,
I'm saying it's not easy to do. Now. You talked
about the talking points, the boiler plate stuff, and I
just I just read a whole bunch of that today.
I was researching, just just through my normal, normal morning stuff,
and I was reading the commentary about, you know, front
office personnel baseball being confronted or questioned about the gambling
(11:21):
situation and the prop bets that have become so obviously
wrong right now, and then the methods regarding how to
mitigate this, and you know, even like talking about let's
put two hundred dollars max, and even that's not enough.
I mean, they shouldn't be any app actually, So my
point overall is that there's talking points and none of
(11:43):
these gems that come out on a limb. I mean,
I think Jed did a little bit. Jed Hoyer are
kind of like insinuated or kind of suggested strongly that
it's they're really not good. And we talked about exactly
the same thing in regards to your phones. Right here,
I can make a bet right here. It used to
be a little bit more difficult to do the expeditious
matter whatever. But the point is the talking points. Everybody
(12:07):
revolves around talking points, and that's that's the part that
I think is missing. You hear Mirph talk pat with
the Brewers. I mean, he's gonna when he talks as
these conferences pre and posters, there's some genuine history involved
in these conversations. It's not just another piece of paper
memorized before we do this. Let's stay on path right here,
(12:30):
let's avoid this. Anytime you get a chance to incorporate
this phrase, please do listen. I was I was asked
to do those kinds of things, and I would, but
I would not. I would just like interject to get
back to whatever my stream of conscious has not wanting
me to go to. And I think that's what you're
going to be missing. You miss streams of consciousness where
people are just really relating actual experiences and camp them
(12:52):
to what act would occur today. And that's to me,
that's what's missing. And I think, gosh, I mean, I
know when I watch somebody or listen to somebody speak
or watch and listen, I love I love to hear
that personal related story that somehow fits into whatever we're
talking about right here, more than just hearing Ugh like
(13:13):
you see Ann Fox, whatever you watch, I don't care.
There's everybody He's saying the same thing all the time.
When so when you get like a even watching The Five,
you got a bunch of guys and ladies, they give
you a different commentary based on their personal experiences. That
to me is interesting. So when you're talking about same
same talking point kind of stuff, please stop that. Get
(13:37):
somebody out there that really has the experience and could
say tell me what you tell me what you not know,
not what you've heard. Regurgitators. This is all about regurgitation,
and I've turned off by it.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
But Terra is the youngest manager by the way, Joe,
since I'm not sure if you remember this name, Frank Quillisey, Yeah,
I do. Minnesota Twins a long time ago.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Man.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
This is going back to nineteen seventy two. He had
an incredible career in that kind of John Schneider. He
was with one organization the whole time, you know, minor
league manager player became a coach. He was one of
Billy Martin's guys with twins. Martin Martin to take him
to the to the Tigers with him, and Calvin Griffith
wouldn't let him go, so they actually had Frank Quillisey
be He was a coach without a title. After he
(14:23):
was done playing. They just wanted him around and he
really didn't have job responsibilities. And halfway through that season,
Calvin Griffith made a change of managers. He fired Bill Rigney.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Good guy, great guy.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
Just imagine this happening, great guy, Just imagine it's happening today. Joe.
Calvin Griffith, who was quite the character, outspoken owner. Now
there's a guy who would speak his mind. You're not
getting boiler played stuff with him. He fired Rigney. He
said because he said too many of the players were nonchalant,
they weren't trying hard enough. Can you imagine an owner
coming out and saying, I'm getting rid of the manager
(14:57):
because my players aren't trying hard enough. Well, Calvin Griffith
did that, and he installed a thirty three year old
to replace a veteran like Bill Radney to become the manager. Now,
the results weren't great. They were a couple of games
under five hundred the rest of the season. He lasted
another three full seasons, was right around five hundred for
his career, so I wouldn't say it was a success.
But but Terra is the youngest major league manager since
(15:19):
the Twins installed Frank Quillisey. By the way, back then,
Calvin Griffith was so cheap. Frank Quillisey only had three
coaches on his staff. He would have to throw batting
practice himself. The pitching coach was getting paid fifteen thousand
dollars a year, had five kids and quills. He went
to Calvin Griffith and said, you gotta pay him more.
This guy can't even support his family with what you're
(15:40):
paying him. And he wouldn't pay him anymore, so the
pitching coach had to leave. That was back in the day.
I know things are different here, but Frank Quillisey the
youngest until he get Blake Butterra at thirty three.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
You know, That was the big thing back then, is
that they really thought coaches were totally replaceable. Nobody was irreplaceable.
For years, we worked under one year contracts. I mean,
if you don't like it, you could walk. We don't care.
You were kind of an indentured service to the organization.
And that was it. I mean, there was no other equivocating.
There was nothing to argue about here. Nothing. I remember
(16:13):
we win the World Series with the Angels in two
thousand and two, and I thought I was a pretty
hot shot bench coach, and I went in to talk
to Bill Stoneman about a raise and and have an agent,
and Stoney offered it five or ten thousand dollars AGI
And I was comping myself to Don Zimmer at that time,
and Stoney just, of course, I got what he gave me.
That's it. It was a two year deal, but I
(16:35):
got what he gave me. There was really no negotiation
going on there. But that's the way it was. Man.
You never you weren't going to get rich. You're just
trying to break even. Trust me, as a major league coach,
you broke even. You you kind of broke evnings is
if you did not live in the city that you
(16:55):
worked in, you got wherever you live, you got there
where you're working at. You're getting paid one thing you
got clubhouse does now you got all these other little expenditures,
You got to dress a little bit better, all the
tipping involved. It's just it became a little bit more difficult.
So this has been going on forever, and I'm here
to say, listen, I'm not complaining about it. I'm kind
(17:16):
of glad I did. The fact that you had to
not have it perfectly set up from the beginning, it
really causes or makes you be more creative. How do
I figure this out? You don't cry, and don't complain,
you don't go run into somebody, Just somehow figure this
thing out. And we're getting to the point now where
nobody wants to try to figure it out anymore if
(17:38):
they want everything done for them, and they're just watching
all this AI stuff pop up right now. It's exactly
what we thought. And they've been hiding behind. Oh, it's
just going to augment everything and those that have making
all the money off of it, whereas it's making them
a lot of money. But eventually it's going to take
over humanity. So all this stuff is in play and
(17:58):
I'm getting off track a little bit. But when it
came down to getting paid, man, we did not get paid.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Yeah, hasn't changed all that much, and I think coaches
are far too replaceable in the minds of the front offices.
By the way, Joe, we're gonna take a quick break
here of the Book of Joe. You're an old catcher.
I need to get your thought on how the American
League Most Valuable Player Award vote turned out. Do that.
Right after this, welcome back to the Book of Joe,
(18:36):
Aaron Judge won the MVP Award again. It's amazing, Joe
that Joe a Otani and Aaron Judge combined have won
seven of the last ten MVP awards in Major League Baseball.
I personally cannot remember a time where the two best
players in the game were this far in front of
the field for the past five years. It's just amazing
(18:57):
the way they are the biggest names, the best players
in this game and have been. But I want to
get your take on this because after watching cal Ralely
play every day in the postseason, man, I was blown
away by everything that he did. The way he runs
a game is tremendous. There's no stat to show that
the way he goes out to the mount and the
pitching coach will not go out to the mount because
(19:18):
he knows. And I talk to Pete Woodworth about this,
he said, Cal has never made a bad decision. Maybe
they don't work out, but I trust him implicitly. I
see that I see him taking all these foul balls.
I grew to appreciate what he did even more because
you know that dude caught more innings than anybody else
behind the plate, hit switch hitter, hitting sixty home runs,
(19:39):
and he still didn't win the MVP Award, which tells
you how great, and I mean great, all time great
Aaron Judge has been. But Judge got seventeen first place
votes and cal Ralely got thirteen, which is closer than
you think because when you think about it, if two
of those votes are reversed, we got ourselves a tie.
So let me get your take first, Joe on how
(20:00):
it turned out here? Did the writers get it right
with Aaron Judge as the al MVP.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
I still believe Raley was and I mean just to really,
because I love to do simple better. Put Raleigh in
the Yankee uniform and put Judge in the saddle uniform,
and I totally believe it would have been Raley. I
swear that's just that's just the truth. Yeah, you just
described all the other things that Raley did during the
course of the season, plus epically best best offensive season
(20:27):
the catchers had. Uh, that's he's not gonna do that again.
It's way too hard to duplicate that with all you
just describe that the bumps to listen, every night you come,
it's like it's like playing a Friday night football game
and Saturday morning, how do you feel every where? Did
that come from all of a sudden? Your forearm is sore,
The back of your hand is sore, your your your
(20:47):
quad is sore. When you catch something's going to be
sore the next day. Something's just not going to be right.
And then all the responsibility, especially based on the way
games are formulated today, with the information prior to and
all the stuff that he's required to know going into
that game, that takes time. Now, listen, I'm not denigrating Judge.
(21:09):
Judge is wonderful, magnificent, I get it, but his pregame
is a lot different than the pregame of a rally
who not only has to absorb all this information but
also has taken care of his body. Then he's got
to get go through the process of getting ready for
the game. He does it every night. So I think
if you really sat down and broke it down, I
think I still believe Raleigh in this year, this past season,
(21:34):
to me, would be considered the MVP judges right there.
He's the second place, wonderful second place candidate. But again,
I just say, if you put different names on the
front of those uniforms, Rawley wins.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
Yeah, I'm going to disagree with you as much as
I agree with everything you said about what Cal brings
to a game, and I've seen it even behind the
scenes the way you know, as you said, especially in
today's game. You know, you have to have plans for
all thirteen pitchers on the staff, and it's a lot
just mentally, and each talked well about the physical grind
as well. If the numbers are even a little bit closer,
(22:09):
I would go Raleigh, But Joe, they're not that close.
I mean, Riley hit two forty seven. I know batting
average is not everything, but the gaps in ops ops
plus are tremendous. I mean, it's a chasm between the
two players. So to me, I think they got it right.
And I hate saying that because listen, last year, Bobby
(22:30):
wit Junior had one of the greatest years ever by
a shortstop and was not rewarded for it, you know,
a finished second to Judge for the MVP vote. It's
the same that this year with Cal Rawley, he probably
had and maybe take out probably the best year at
least offensively for a catcher in the history of the game,
and he's not the MVP. Again. I just think we're
getting back to what Aaron Judge is doing. The numbers
(22:51):
that he that he's putting up from age thirty to
thirty three. His comp is Babe Ruth. I mean, that's
what he's doing here. I mean, he's just on another planet.
This is a dude to it. He's six foot seven,
thirty one. He's twenty points past anybody else in Major
League Baseball. He won a batting title with fifty three
(23:12):
home runs. That's just not supposed to happen. That's how
much of a great hitter he is. And yeah he
was hurt late in the year. Probably DHD more than
certainly than he wanted, so the defensive component swings even
more to cal Raley's side. But I think the voters
kind of proved me right on this, Joe. When you
actually sit down, you start looking at the numbers, and
(23:33):
I know it's not a math exercise entirely, but my goodness,
the gap between what Judge did offensively and what cal
ralely did, even with sixty home runs, it's enormous, and
it's just hard to make up that gap.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
How would we calculate the work that he did behind
a plate? What kind of catching ops did he have?
Speaker 1 (23:51):
Yeah, I mean, listen, I don't think we can quantify that.
We try to with war. It's a bad approximation, it
really is, especially when it comes to the defensive side.
So you're right, I mean that is can't bring math
to that correct.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
And that's where we're so at some point I would
be fine with just, you know, some people popping up
and just taking the math and putting it over here
on the side, and just taking their eyeballs and putting
them on this side and voting. My vote could be
swayed based on the complete picture of what or Rawley
did versus the complete picture of what Judge did. Because
(24:27):
again we talked about this. I don't even know how
much judges numbers are impacted by intentional walks. I don't know,
and I don't even know to what extent Rawleys was.
I'm sure you have that, but at some point you
have to recognize the rest of the game, and that's
when it comes to most valuable player. Of course, as
batting average was less than man, it is hard when
you do put that gear on every day, you squad
(24:47):
every day and actually get to go on one knee,
which is really a lifesaver for the body. But nevertheless,
he does that every day, gets in that squad, he's
looking out at the game, everybody's looking in at the game.
He's like, you suggested thirteen guys that he's in charge there,
that he has to know every nuance about this guy,
combine it with the Skyt report and then and then
(25:09):
match it up against the guy coming up walking to
the batter's box. And did so well with that and
how deeply they got into the season. And I know
the voting was done prior to that. However, I just
I like, if there was some formula, if that's what's necessary,
other than your eyeballs, because that's really what we've I
don't know if it's evolved or evolve to, is the
fact that we have to have a number substantiating our method,
(25:32):
whereas what's wrong with your good old instinct baseball eyes
and understanding what this guy went through to accomplish all this,
and how do you evaluate that in regards to giving
him more of a bump, more points elevating his stance
in this race somehow? So for me, I mean, I
guess maybe as a former catcher, I'm a little bit
more sympathetic to that because I know, brother, your body
(25:54):
does not feel that good every day. And to do
what he did on a daily basis, and I don't
care about his batting average everything else that he did
on a daily basis, and that bat speed was the same,
that is really impressive.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
Yeah, especially working your swinging from both sides of the plate. Well,
thirteen voters at a thirty thought the same way as you, Joe.
It wasn't like this was unanimous. It was actually closer
than a lot of people thought. So it was not
a slam dunk for Aaron Judge. But yeah, sympathies go
to Cal Raley Man. He was, as you said, I'm
not sure you can have a year like that. Again,
(26:29):
he put up a historic all time year and it
wasn't enough to beat out Aaron Judge. We did have
a free agent signing Joe the first of the season.
Josh Naylor signs back with the Seattle Mariners five years,
ninety two point five million dollars. It's not surprising to
me that he came back to Seattle was such a
good fit. It may be surprising, though, that he signed
(26:52):
this quickly for this term. It's essentially it is exact
same deal that Anthony Santander has signed last year with Toronto.
Naylor had himself a really good year. I mean, you're
talking about a guy who I was really impressed watching
him in the postseason. Joe, it seemed like there were
times where he just decided, I'm not striking out. I'm
going to do whatever I can to put this ball
(27:13):
in play. And I think that's what helped make this
Seattle team get as far as they did, because that
team in the past offensively had way too much swing
a miss, and I think balancing out the lineup, you
don't want an entire roster of Josh Naylor's but you
need some of your lineup, as Toronto proved, I like
this signing. It was a good fit. Don't mess with it.
I give him credit. Obviously he was happy there and
(27:36):
he knew it was a good fit. Doesn't need to
shop it around and drag it out to January. He's
in a place I'm sure he likes with the contract
he likes. Good for them, good for the Mariners.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
The latter day John Cruk, I really like him too.
The big part, I mean, look at his age, because
his the look belies his age. He's actually very young.
I mean, if you look at him, you would think
that he's a little bit older than that. So when
I saw the age, I said, damn. I mean, I
totally get it right now. But yeah, you're right, don't
You don't need a whole team of those, but you'd
definitely like to have one to maybe two of those.
(28:09):
He's a baseball player, the way he's able to maneuver
on the bases. Also, that see for me when I'd
go scouting, even as a young Scott, I was like,
what thirty less than thirty twenty eight, twenty seven, and
I'm going and even at that point, I would recognize
if I saw a player that I kind of liked
that really showed me good instincts on the basis, that
(28:30):
would really accelerate how I felt about that player, just
based on that. When you show me instincts on the basis, wow,
I am always impressed because it's when you get out there, man,
to apply yourself like that. It takes a lot of
mental focus, and sometimes you're not going so well, but
you still go out there, I mean, hitting wise, but
you go out there and you still do things on
(28:52):
the basis to help your team win. Carlos Payn Carlos
could not run that well. Carlos really good base runner,
great acumen out there, saw things. It's always been impressive.
So with him, I look at that, and that base
running acumen on his part tells me everything I need
to know about this guy. Because what I'm saying is
not an illusion. He is that good of a baseball player.
(29:13):
At bats, they're trying to put the ball in play.
All the things that he does, you know, find first pace.
Everything he does reeks of being a baseball player, and
so free Seattle's perspective, I think it's a great sign
his method of hitting. Always would always stand up there.
I mean, whether it's a line drive to left field
or a bomb over the right field wall, whichever needed
in the moment, He's going to do that, and that's
(29:34):
what I like about it.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
Yeah, and people maybe start to wonder has affect Pete
Alonzo's market, you know, first basement, it's really not comparable.
I don't think Pete is going to be out there
for a while. You know, he's obviously more of a
slugger than Josh Naylor. But it's interesting, Joe that I
think Pete Alonso is going to wind up back with
the Mets because I don't think they have a good
fallback position. I think with Juan Soto there, you need
(29:58):
a right headed power back behind him. And if it's
not Pete Alonso, who is it. I mean, there's just
not another choice. So listen, it's not a done deal.
This is going to drag out. But you know, there's
talk that the Boston Red Sox are going to get
it in for Pete Alonzo, and why not. If you're
the Red Sox, you'd love to re sign Alex Bregman,
(30:19):
but that's gonna take a while, so you have to
maintain not just with these two Bregman and Alonso. You
have to maintain, you know, conversations and talks with with
other players. You just can't put all your eggs in
one basket. If your Boston Joe and you have some
money to spend, do you go Bregman or do you
go Alonso? I?
Speaker 2 (30:38):
Well, I like Alonso with the Mets, and if I
am the Red Sox, I stay with Bregman. I think
it's I think to me, that would in my mindsight,
that's way matches up. Bregman suited to that ballpark really well.
He can't pull the ball. He's got that short, little
choppy swing. I think, you know, Alonzo, he started trying
to pull the ball too much. It wouldn't be as
good as a hitter. So I and I think Alonso's proven
(31:00):
that he could handle that stuff in New York. I mean,
he did a great job this year. He's in a
in another contract year and the guy goes out there
and just nails it. I think he learned a lot
about himself this year, also regarding me, whether it's approach,
how I take care of myself, what kind of training
I do, just his focus everything, you know, He's a
gregarious personality, and I think he's kind of like learned
(31:20):
how to channel it to the point where it now
becomes more It could blend into the leadership role a bit,
and I think if you bring him back there, he's
going to feel that he's going to feel like he,
you know, I really belong here. I want to be here.
I can now be more open in a good way
regarding how I try to influence the players around me.
I think the people of New York appreciate him and
(31:42):
how he plays, so that makes all the sense as well.
And I think Bregman's got that Boston attitude a little bit.
He just kind of got that Boston swagger about him.
But I think his game is more student there, so
for me, status quo on both sides, I think both
teams should sign these guys.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
I'm with you, Joe, for all those reasons and for
the reasons we just talked about with Josh Naylor. You know,
when you have a good fit, you know that that
part in the as a cog and your machinery. Don't
mess around with it. Bragman is not just built for
Fenway because of that swing, and you look at his
career ops there. He just absolutely rakes in that ballpark.
He's a glue guy on that team. He is a leader.
(32:18):
He's a little bit like JD. Martinez with the way
he dives so deeply into hitting and preparation and figuring
out what other pitchers are doing against the lineup. He's
got tremendous value there that rubs off on, especially the
young hitters there. So I don't want to mess with
that if I'm Boston. Not to say that Pee Alonzo
is not that kind of a guy, but we know
that Peede Alonzo, and this is a good point you made, Joe,
(32:38):
he can get it done in New York. I mean,
that's always a box you need to check if you're
a New York general manager, president of baseball ops. Trying
to bring a player in the city doesn't bother him.
In fact, he thrives in it and he plays every day.
So I'm with you. There's no reason for either team
to go elsewhere. We'll see how those contracts work out.
Question for you on free agency, Joe, if you're the
(33:00):
Toronto Blue Jays, now you've really kind of redefined your friend.
I mean, it's the expectations now are and this is
what John Schneider was most proud of at the end
of the year. Of course, it hurt badly to lose
Game seven of the World Series, but they changed the
culture there. There's an expectation there that they should win,
and they're not settling for anything else, not just hey,
let's play meaningful games in September. And I hate hearing
(33:23):
that kind of nonsense. But if you're Toronto now, you've
got Bob Baschett, who's a free agent. You've got Kyle
Tucker who's out there as a free agent. But you
also have closers out there in Edwin Diaz, Devin Williams,
Pete Fairbanks. If you're the Blue Jays, what do you prioritize?
They do have some money to spend. They're already the
fifth highest payroll in the game. Do you go closer?
(33:46):
Do you go Kyle Tucker? Do you make sure you
bring back Bob Buschett, who probably is going to sign
with somebody as a second basement. I don't think he's
going to sign as a shortstop.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
Yeah, I would put him back at shortstop. Second base
is interesting. I still I don't know enough because I've
not been around him. Around his daddy, but I want
his bat out there. I'm even liking left field. Quite frankly,
I don't know. I'd just not been on the field
with them enough to know how exactly I feel about
his defense. I was wrong about Mookie Betts. Mokie was
way better than I thought he could be. But having
(34:16):
watched Bashett, I just like to put him in a
spot where he doesn't have to worry about his defense
at all, and just Rake. That's what I'd like to
do with him. If I'm the Blue Jays. Yeah, I'm
not a Hoffman guy. I like him, but I don't
like him in that role. I think if you put
him earlier in the game, he's really going to nail
it down. He's not going to make the same kind
of mistakes. Now, how much money do they have, I
(34:37):
mean they've they've been trying to get guys for years.
I know they've spent on Guerrera, but if they got enough,
dough Man, I'd go after all these dudes. I don't
know if they can or cannot, but I mean, at
least like Bishett and Ikadiez or Bishett and a Tucker.
If they feel like their bullpen is good enough. But
I think they should go after two of those three.
I mean hard, because if they don't, they're not getting
back to where they were this year. They need a
(34:57):
real short stop like they had at the at the
end of their net. That him and Az really made
a huge difference, huge difference for them. Their defense tightened up.
I love Ernie, he's outstanding. I love a lot about them, Barger,
all these guys. They got him, But if they remain
pat hand, they ain't going back there next year. I
don't think. I really don't see it, especially with their
(35:19):
pitching still in the state of flux. Starting wise, some
guys you know, Bieber and Shresury just that's not going
to be what it was this year. So I think,
you know, if they get some free dump money, I
take the two out of three, two out of three
a't bat, We'll go meet Loaf on him. I want
two out of three of Baschette, Tucker and like a Diaz.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
Yeah, I'm with him. I would do the closer whoever
it is. I obviously Diaz is the top of the list.
That's probably one hundred and twenty million dollars, and then
Bashett which I think between the two of those you
get for less than Kyle Tucker. Kyle Tucker's probably four
hundred million plus. But yeah, if I'm Toronto, I do
want to be aggressive about one of these closers out there,
(35:58):
starting with Diaz. Maybe he goes back to the Mets
like a lot of people think that, but he's going
to have a great market, so it's interesting. I think
Toronto will be aggressive even though, as you mentioned, they
had the blood contract at five hundred mil. They're building
something there, There's no question about it, and now's not
the time to back off. Hey, we're gonna take a
quick break. I want to talk to Joe about we
lost in one of his former players recently. Not a
(36:21):
big name, but anybody who gets the Major League Baseball
and pitches seventeen years in professional baseball should be recognized.
We'll do that right after this. Welcome Back to the
(36:43):
Book of Joe podcast with me, Tom Berducci and Joe
Madden and Joe was in May of twenty fifteen when
the Cubs traded Wellington Castillo for your vs. Medina. I'm
not sure if you remember that because your Visa only
wind up pitching five times for you. He was a
guy traded from the Seattle Mariners. Now it turns out
(37:07):
that was his last year in the big leagues, but
Medina wound up pitching seventeen professional seasons, including in Venezuela, Italy,
the Czech Republic, and Nicaragua. After Major League Baseball sad story.
Just last month, just thirty seven years old, he apparently
had a heart attack while driving, collided with another car,
(37:30):
and was killed. I'm not sure. I know players come
and go, Joe, but someone like that comes across your radar.
I'm just impressed by someone who loves the game that much,
keeps that major league dream alive, literally pitching all over
the world, right.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
Yeah, a wonderful fellow. I didn't even I swear I
didn't even see that. Man, that's horrible. I didn't know
about that. And yeah, briefly there just you know, one
of those like you're saying, a lifer do anything you
ask him to do, very eager, obviously a great team player.
But these guys, man, God, I got such a warm
(38:07):
place in my heart for them, as I kind of
identify with all that stuff based on you know, my
path to get to the major leagues and eventually doing
what I've been able to do. So, you know, God,
I didn't realize that, so you kind of caught me
right there. And he was he was. He was wonderful.
He's he loved lived, talk, spoke whatever, baseball and gosh,
(38:29):
I just the heart goes out to his family.
Speaker 1 (38:31):
Yeah. I mean, as you know, Joe, there's a magical
year in twenty fifteen. I know everybody looks at twenty sixteen,
but everything started to come together for that group in
twenty fifteen and a lot of guys, you know, theo
Epstein did a great job, especially with pitching, bringing in
guys from other organizations, and I just wonder what that
was like for you to try to meld a group together.
(38:52):
You had the core of you know, the guys who
were drafted, you know, the Bryan's, the Rizzo's. Rizzo was
not an original Cub draft pick. But you get the point,
Kyle Schwarber, but bringing together guys from the outside and
folding them into a team concept. And you did that
in twenty fifteen. The payoff was sixteen. What's the difficulty
of doing that?
Speaker 2 (39:12):
Just getting to know everybody quickly. I mean, you bring
different guys in and you know, the front officer or whoever.
They'll tell you know what they think about them. Sometimes
I had personal experience with different players where it's Khill Richards. Mean,
I had different experiences with them, But then again you
got to see them out there and you got to
decide what they're with their role is what they're capable
of doing, that level of trust you want to give
(39:34):
that player. There's players. Bart was a barker, and there
was a left handed got to switch hitter. God, he
had a great day in New York City. Gosh, I
can't remember his name right now. But these are role players, right,
so how do I utilize these role players? A lot
of was platoon advantage kind of stuff. Actually was kind
of fun, you know, because I wasn't really dictated how
(39:55):
to use these guys. Was kind of like a daily
baseball decisions creating the lineups. Like I said, giving somebody
a rest, Jonathan something like, give guys rests and then
you you just match things up, man, And it was fun.
These guys would do anything. We were good at safety squeezes,
We scored runners from third. We did all kind of
(40:16):
crazy things on the field, you know, you know the
five man infield that it was necessary. Picture goes in
the outfield for a bat or two, then it comes
back in. I mean, all this stuff was open because
all these guys absolutely were on board and on the
same page. It was fun. It's fun. It's fun when
you have like it was kind of like the the
(40:37):
very end of the fifteen sixteen seventeen, like the end
of like this moment as a manager when you could
just you know, you really did. You wrote out the plan,
talk to the coaches. You're using a lot of your
baseball experience at that point before it started leaning more
towards dictate from the front office on down. So it
was a blast. It was a great group. We had
(40:58):
a and then we just ran into like god, I mean,
the hottest pitching staff and Daniel Murphy, I mean, what
are you going to do? It was absolutely weird and
frustrating to watch how they dismantled this in four games.
In the players, we had no chance that pitching was
that good. Daniel was that good. So we went home.
But just think about it. The Cubs went to the
(41:18):
NLCS that year, eventually the World Series, the NLCS the
year after that. The three consecutive years where they had
really had not even stiffed that in a long time.
So it was the group culture that we created there.
It was very, as Brian Kenny likes to talk about,
very baseball. We just we played baseball, even including back
to back safety squeezes in a playoff game in Saint Louis.
(41:40):
It was fun because the guy's body in and quickly.
In that twenty fifteen season in spring training, my first
camp with them, and I'm why, you know, eyes open,
ears open, mouth shut. We're doing cutoffs and release in
one day and I'm here to tell you they're just
going through the motions. That's one time I did blow
up to think that you're going to take a fundamental
(42:03):
as a and run at that poorly, do not care
about it. So I think unintentionally that was a really
big moment for us and for me with that group
because I did not put up with that kind of
nonsense where you're gonna run drills poorly in spring training
and that kind of like set the tone I think
for the year. So it was a baseball league group,
was a tight group. It was really fun, great coaching staff.
(42:25):
I loved every second of it.
Speaker 1 (42:27):
And circling back to where we began your introductory press
conference with the Cubs far from boiler plate right. In fact,
it's when you offered them by shot and beer for
the press there, right. That was awesome, by the way, Joe,
both of us have big football games coming up on Saturday.
For me, it's Nebraska at Penn State. I'm a Penn
(42:49):
State graduate. My brother's on the coaching staff at Nebraska.
I will be out there in Happy Valley for that game.
And you, of course, of Lafayette and Lehigh, the one
hundred and sixty first meeting in rivalry, both come in
undefeated in the Patriot League winner take all. Wow.
Speaker 2 (43:10):
I'll be on the fifty yard line and I'm debating
whether to wear my raccoon code or not. I got
this really heavy, furry Canadian made raccoon coat that really
could withstand I think minus fifty. So I'm and although
I think the weather is going to be good, to
have both teams being undefeated, it's gonna be really fun.
And plus we're on or what two hundred year anniversary
(43:31):
of being a college Lafayette is so this year and
next year both games are going to be at Lafayette,
I guess. So next year is probably the celebration because
this was our term, but we permitted Lee haid a
half two consecutive years, and now we have two consecutive years.
I don't have that completely right. I'll look it up
so I could speak more intelligently about it. But I'm Jack,
(43:51):
Wendy and I are going to go on Saturday. I'm
flying up there on Thursday and then we'll head on
down there on Saturday and have a pretty complete day. Listen.
I know, Penn stay beautiful, wonderful, but I I Fisher
Field at Oafayette College. It's this little bowl kind of
a thing. It's the essence of pure college football. I'm
(44:13):
I get. I know, I actually played on that field
back in seventy three whatever it was, and so it's
kind of cool for me personally. But to have a
chance to win the Patriot League, Lehi's undefeated. I think
all the way through we lost at Oregon State, we lost,
I saw Princeton, we lost, Princeton, came up, your team
came up and beat us. But it's We've played a
lot better since that Princeton game. So I'm really curious.
(44:35):
It's a lot of fun and I'm looking forward to it.
Speaker 1 (44:37):
That is awesome both us looking forward to a great
day of football on Saturday. In the meantime, Joe, you
always bring us home with words of wisdom. What do
you have for this edition of the Book of Joe
to bring us home?
Speaker 2 (44:50):
You know? And I think it was rooted and when
I was talking about when front office personnel were asked
about gambling in baseball and the problems that they're confronted
with now and possible solutions, and everybody's like punting on
this one, and or they would just give like we
talked about the boiler plate answer, and that's what I was,
That's where I was this morning. Absolutely, I was kind
(45:11):
of disappointed that there wasn't any more demonstrative answers. And
I think that's where we, you know, we always wanted
to be so politically correct that we fail to say
what we think sometimes, and that's that's antithetical to what
I believe in. I love when somebody has a different
like you just disagree with me a couple of minutes ago,
(45:33):
and I love that stuff. God, that's the That's the
best part of an organizational meeting or even a meeting
before a series with your coaching staff when they say
I don't, I don't agree with you. God do I
love that anyhow, disappoint it and some of the answers
that are at really punt it, like going for the
coffin corner, staying away from it, and so Jeorge Benard
Shaw the single biggest problem in communication is the illusion
(45:55):
that it has taken place to communicate. Sometimes they just
add lip service to something and then you walk away
from it as though the other side really understands where
you're coming from. And it's so important to slow that
communication process down and understand that it's hit home, like
even in baseball when you're communicating with kids that speak
(46:16):
a different language, to really make sure that whatever you
had to say, which may have probably was important, that
it as it has been communicated, that both sides understand
what's going on right here. I only think you get
to that point with questioning, with disagreement, with healthy arguments.
You know, you have this constructive criticism flowing back and forth.
(46:36):
That's when communication really takes place. So anyway, that was
what motivated my thought for the day, and we kind
of covered it during the course of the conversation. But
I love truth tellers. You love truth tellers. I love
truth tellers, and again, at the end of the day,
please disagree with me and set me straight and tell
me where I'm wrong. I do enjoy that, and that's
(46:58):
the best way to run a major league coaching staff
and a major league organization. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:03):
Great, great observation, Joe. And especially as it relates to
these prop bets or micro bets and baseball. I don't
know why it's so controversial for someone to come out
and say, listen, I understand legal gambling. It's it's this
is what we have now, but we need guardrails, right,
Why do we have these prop bets because of their
invitations to trouble. Just get rid of them, don't cap
(47:25):
them as they're doing. Now, that's a nice step forward,
two hundred dollars max on a prop bet, But why
even have it? Is it really worth it? I don't
think so, for the risk it puts the players and
the game itself in only the.
Speaker 2 (47:39):
You know, the gambling community knows that how much money
they make on those particular bets. And again, it's just
I'm just you know, I'm adverse to all of this stuff.
You know that, I know it's part of the landscape.
But just because it's part of the landscape, it doesn't
mean it looks really pretty in the garden.
Speaker 1 (47:53):
Brother Well said, great job, Joe. We'll see you next
time on the Book of Joe you.
Speaker 2 (47:59):
Tube brother, Go Nitney Lyons, baby, and go go Leopards.
Speaker 1 (48:10):
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
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or wherever you get your podcasts.
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
Hey thereon, welcome back to the Book of Joe podcast.
It's me Tom Barducci and I'm with, of course, Joe
Madden and Joe. I'm not sure if you saw it,
(00:25):
but the other day the Nationals introduced Blake but Terra
as their new manager, and it got me thinking about
when you got the job with the Tampa Bay then
Devil Rays and you talked about, you know, you had
been an interim manager briefly with the Angels previously. But
this was holding your own baby, as you put it,
(00:45):
and Blake but Terra actually was holding his own baby.
The press conference had been held off while he was
opportunity to leave the birth of their first child, a daughter.
Congratulations to but Terra's But take me into that position, Joe,
when in your case, I mean, you waited a long time.
But Terra is just thirty three years old. When you
(01:07):
stand up there and you realize that you have a
major league team to manage.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Brother, I'm here to tell you I couldn't have done
it at thirty three. I have no idea. I'm just
being very honest with you. I was managing what I
just got done with Midland. I was about that age
maybe yeah, right around that age or so. I was
done managing in Double A. Then I became a roving instructor.
There were so many things I just didn't know. I
was just first of all, the major league vibe and
(01:35):
how it happens. I was not a player obviously in
the Major League, so that whole thing was it's all
the same, the distances on the fences, home plate, the
first home plate to the man, first base from the plate, etc.
But it was a completely different game, and I wow,
just a different world, brother, because I was absolutely intimidated
(01:56):
by it. I didn't feel confident enough in my own stuff.
I mean, I was like walking among gods and legends.
I mean the people that were involved in baseball at
that time, at least I thought that way. Now, could
I possibly think I was ready to compete against Gene
Mock or Weddy Herzog Larusse at that time, Jimmy Leland,
(02:16):
all these guys that were doing it. I just dude,
I couldn't do it. I wasn't ready. And I the
line I've always recognized for myself was, or it still is, is,
I don't want anything before it's my time to have
something another. I guess part of that is the earned
part of it, earning it. The other parts just intellectually emotionally,
(02:38):
what do I say? How do I say it? The
ability to stand up and represent your entire organization a
couple times a day through press conferences, whether it's spring training,
regular season, what's that two hundred times? And then everything
else that floats with that. Just walking into a major
league locker room and being in charge of that and
the players. There's so much going on. So I wasn't
(03:00):
ready for it, just being honest, I thought I was
ready when I was fifty one, and it took me
that long to really feel comfortable knowing what I know,
knowing what I knew at that time, and then they
can continue to grow. But God bless him, man, there's
no way I would have been considered anyway. But I'm
just saying there was no way I was ready to
do something like that at that point.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Yeah, let's talk about u Terra's path and whether he's
ready or not. Time will tell. He was a thirty
fifth round draft pick by the Rays at a Boston college,
just played a couple of years in the Raised system,
and I'm sure they recognized that this guy had a
future in the game, not so much as a player,
but that he could add something either as a coach,
(03:41):
front office, you name it. You know this, Joe. You
see some guys, right and they just have this spark
about them. For me, I'm very partial because it fits me.
He's the son of a coach, coached by his dad
growing up. I'm always leaning towards those kind of players
who grow up learning about the game from the inside
out rather than the outside in. So he was ten
years in that raise system, a little bit of did
(04:03):
a little bit of everything. He was a manager, starting
at the age of twenty five. How about that he
was the youngest manager and I think you were too
when you first started, Joe. He was the youngest manager
in the minor leagues. He started out in short season
Hudson Valley in a ball. He went on to manage
more than you know, four or five years. Twenty one
and twenty two. He was manager of the Year in
Single A. So he does have managing experience. But you know, Joe,
(04:26):
it's different being in a major league dugout. When he
manages the Nationals, it'll be his first time in a
major league dugout, and as he puts the staff together,
I would lean towards having people around me at least
a couple of guys who have been major league players
and or major league coaches. I don't know how you
feel about that, Joe, but I just think there is
(04:46):
I don't know, it's a different You're behind the red
ropes at that point, and I just know from talking
to players that there is a certain credibility they attached
to guys. I'm not saying that everybody your staff has
to be an all star Major leaguer, but I would
learn to having just that side representative even a little
bit of my.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
No doubt, no doubt. It's almost like communication skills are
more important to an expedient rise in today's game as
opposed to just pure knowledge of the game, because part
of that is I think the necessity to be exposed
to the media as often as you are. I think
that's you said Boston College that made me think about
it immediately, and listen, I came from a good background too,
(05:28):
at Lafayette whatever, but I wasn't. I just didn't have
the confidence to stand up. Maybe I would have if
I was just thrust into but I did. I don't
think I had the confidence to express myself in a
way obviously that I can now, but back then, and
I see that as being very vital, and I think
maybe that's part of the game. The ascension of these
guys is that they are perceived to be able to
(05:52):
do those kind of things, and the absolute knowledge of
the game itself is not nearly as important. And again
that's all based on the autonomy to dugout is now
longer the autonomy to dugout. It's more you know, your
working with the front office. And again I've always been
about that. I've always advocated for that. However, when he
gets to the point where it gets too heavy handed,
I didn't like that. But I think, like I said,
(06:13):
the ascension of these young guys based on their communication skills.
I guess it has to be a product of the
times where even you watch like young politicals and just
other people in different businesses that are very young, how
they speak so dramatically, like in a way that they
really know what they're talking about. Now, I'm not denigrating
(06:35):
their intelligence level, but you just combine that with experience, intuition.
Things we always talk about it has to be lacking
because you're just too most of the time, I say
ninety percent of the time from where you're too young
to know enough to really be pushed into that position.
Social media, the way people are put out front younger,
I think also lends to their confidence in what they're
(06:56):
saying and how they're saying it. And then they get
supported because after all, the way this is all working
right now, it keeps getting younger younger, younger regards to
we're choosing as our leaders, and I think a lot
of that has to do with that. I mean, just
the demographically younger people social media wise, they're pushing for this,
you know, the socialist kind of method that's being incorporated
(07:16):
into our world right now in our country. I think
a lot of it has to do with a youth
movement as opposed to the group that has been there
for a while. So I think it's all blending together,
even into baseball, where these kind of skills are being recognized.
Communication skills are being recognized more highly as opposed to
practical ability to note the whatever you're being put in
(07:40):
charge of, you don't know really as much there as
you're able to talk to somebody and communicate in a
way that ameliorates the concerns of an organization. Best way
I can.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
Say it, I think, no, I think you're one hundred
percent right, Joe. It's a lot going on there to unpack.
But I do think the ability not just to you know,
hold an interesting press conference twice a day, but it's
more about connecting with the players. And the players don't
get older, right, I mean, the players are going to
be in their twenties and early thirties for the most
part all the time. So the ability to connect to
(08:11):
the players, I think is what's important here. And it's interesting.
You know, Paul Taboni is now the president of Baseball
Operations of the Nationals. He's a younger guy. It was
actually Mike Piazza, who before but Terra was a candidate
for the job, called up to Boni and said, you
got to take a look at this guy. Piazza had
worked with him on Team Italy in the WBC. I
(08:32):
thought that was interesting, and listening to the press conference
for Butterra, I don't want to say it was execut
you speak, it was kind of typical of you know,
some of the platitudes that are out there that are
not necessarily about how he's going to run a game
or the nuts and bolts of being a manager and
what your style is as a manager. As much it
(08:53):
was about connecting with people. And in fact, the first
thing he did when he got there is he taped
a social media segment for the Nationals X channel to say, Hey,
tune into my pre conference on X and YouTube coming
up this afternoon. I mean, can you see Gene Mack
doing that. I mean that's part of the job too.
So when I say that he didn't have a you know,
(09:14):
it's basically boiler plate stuff. He basically said, the best
advice I've gotten is to just be yourself. At the
end of the day, when you talk with players and
you work with players, the last thing they look at
is how old or young somebody is. I think what's
most important to them is do you care about them
as a person first, and are you going to do
everything you can to help them become the best version
(09:34):
of themselves both on and off the field. I think
people can accomplish that in different ages and different experiences.
That's the nut of this, Joe. What I'm talking about
here is that everybody's looking for a manager who can
quote unquote connect with players, and when you do that,
you're probably going to skew younger. And I've said this before.
I think Stephen Vote became the template for managing. Now.
(09:55):
You know, he was one year out of the game,
he didn't coach one year with the Seattle Mariners, and
now he's been manager of the Year his first two
years with the Cleveland Guardians. But Terra is younger. But
this ability, or at least the from a front office perspective,
the looking for somebody who can quote unquote connect with
the players, I think that's driving these decisions more than anything.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
No question, one hundred percent right. And I have to
understand Voter is an outlier. I mean I was, I
was around the film, and I haven't been around all
these other dudes. I get it. But I know I
know Voter. I know Voter. I knew from the from
Jump Street when I had him with the Rays, and
like I said, he used to come to big league.
We had, we had the same camp and poor Charlotte
minor leaguers and major leaguers together we'd grab anytime we
(10:39):
needed somebody. Let's get Voter over here. Get Voter over
here because we just loved them being there. I mean,
he could hit, you know, we had some absolute baseball skills,
but we love this personality there. That's really almost every
time we need whatever, we need a guy he doesn't play,
that's okay, just bring voter, we'll get him in that bat.
So Steven, he's he's an outlier with all this. So
(10:59):
when you start trying to camp everybody to this, dude,
I'm saying it's not easy to do. Now. You talked
about the talking points, the boiler plate stuff, and I
just I just read a whole bunch of that today.
I was researching, just just through my normal, normal morning stuff,
and I was reading the commentary about, you know, front
office personnel baseball being confronted or questioned about the gambling
(11:21):
situation and the prop bets that have become so obviously
wrong right now, and then the methods regarding how to
mitigate this, and you know, even like talking about let's
put two hundred dollars max, and even that's not enough.
I mean, they shouldn't be any app actually, So my
point overall is that there's talking points and none of
(11:43):
these gems that come out on a limb. I mean,
I think Jed did a little bit. Jed Hoyer are
kind of like insinuated or kind of suggested strongly that
it's they're really not good. And we talked about exactly
the same thing in regards to your phones. Right here,
I can make a bet right here. It used to
be a little bit more difficult to do the expeditious
matter whatever. But the point is the talking points. Everybody
(12:07):
revolves around talking points, and that's that's the part that
I think is missing. You hear Mirph talk pat with
the Brewers. I mean, he's gonna when he talks as
these conferences pre and posters, there's some genuine history involved
in these conversations. It's not just another piece of paper
memorized before we do this. Let's stay on path right here,
(12:30):
let's avoid this. Anytime you get a chance to incorporate
this phrase, please do listen. I was I was asked
to do those kinds of things, and I would, but
I would not. I would just like interject to get
back to whatever my stream of conscious has not wanting
me to go to. And I think that's what you're
going to be missing. You miss streams of consciousness where
people are just really relating actual experiences and camp them
(12:52):
to what act would occur today. And that's to me,
that's what's missing. And I think, gosh, I mean, I
know when I watch somebody or listen to somebody speak
or watch and listen, I love I love to hear
that personal related story that somehow fits into whatever we're
talking about right here, more than just hearing Ugh like
(13:13):
you see Ann Fox, whatever you watch, I don't care.
There's everybody He's saying the same thing all the time.
When so when you get like a even watching The Five,
you got a bunch of guys and ladies, they give
you a different commentary based on their personal experiences. That
to me is interesting. So when you're talking about same
same talking point kind of stuff, please stop that. Get
(13:37):
somebody out there that really has the experience and could
say tell me what you tell me what you not know,
not what you've heard. Regurgitators. This is all about regurgitation,
and I've turned off by it.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
But Terra is the youngest manager by the way, Joe,
since I'm not sure if you remember this name, Frank Quillisey, Yeah,
I do. Minnesota Twins a long time ago.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Man.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
This is going back to nineteen seventy two. He had
an incredible career in that kind of John Schneider. He
was with one organization the whole time, you know, minor
league manager player became a coach. He was one of
Billy Martin's guys with twins. Martin Martin to take him
to the to the Tigers with him, and Calvin Griffith
wouldn't let him go, so they actually had Frank Quillisey
be He was a coach without a title. After he
(14:23):
was done playing. They just wanted him around and he
really didn't have job responsibilities. And halfway through that season,
Calvin Griffith made a change of managers. He fired Bill Rigney.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Good guy, great guy.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
Just imagine this happening, great guy, Just imagine it's happening today. Joe.
Calvin Griffith, who was quite the character, outspoken owner. Now
there's a guy who would speak his mind. You're not
getting boiler played stuff with him. He fired Rigney. He
said because he said too many of the players were nonchalant,
they weren't trying hard enough. Can you imagine an owner
coming out and saying, I'm getting rid of the manager
(14:57):
because my players aren't trying hard enough. Well, Calvin Griffith
did that, and he installed a thirty three year old
to replace a veteran like Bill Radney to become the manager. Now,
the results weren't great. They were a couple of games
under five hundred the rest of the season. He lasted
another three full seasons, was right around five hundred for
his career, so I wouldn't say it was a success.
But but Terra is the youngest major league manager since
(15:19):
the Twins installed Frank Quillisey. By the way, back then,
Calvin Griffith was so cheap. Frank Quillisey only had three
coaches on his staff. He would have to throw batting
practice himself. The pitching coach was getting paid fifteen thousand
dollars a year, had five kids and quills. He went
to Calvin Griffith and said, you gotta pay him more.
This guy can't even support his family with what you're
(15:40):
paying him. And he wouldn't pay him anymore, so the
pitching coach had to leave. That was back in the day.
I know things are different here, but Frank Quillisey the
youngest until he get Blake Butterra at thirty three.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
You know, That was the big thing back then, is
that they really thought coaches were totally replaceable. Nobody was irreplaceable.
For years, we worked under one year contracts. I mean,
if you don't like it, you could walk. We don't care.
You were kind of an indentured service to the organization.
And that was it. I mean, there was no other equivocating.
There was nothing to argue about here. Nothing. I remember
(16:13):
we win the World Series with the Angels in two
thousand and two, and I thought I was a pretty
hot shot bench coach, and I went in to talk
to Bill Stoneman about a raise and and have an agent,
and Stoney offered it five or ten thousand dollars AGI
And I was comping myself to Don Zimmer at that time,
and Stoney just, of course, I got what he gave me.
That's it. It was a two year deal, but I
(16:35):
got what he gave me. There was really no negotiation
going on there. But that's the way it was. Man.
You never you weren't going to get rich. You're just
trying to break even. Trust me, as a major league coach,
you broke even. You you kind of broke evnings is
if you did not live in the city that you
(16:55):
worked in, you got wherever you live, you got there
where you're working at. You're getting paid one thing you
got clubhouse does now you got all these other little expenditures,
You got to dress a little bit better, all the
tipping involved. It's just it became a little bit more difficult.
So this has been going on forever, and I'm here
to say, listen, I'm not complaining about it. I'm kind
(17:16):
of glad I did. The fact that you had to
not have it perfectly set up from the beginning, it
really causes or makes you be more creative. How do
I figure this out? You don't cry, and don't complain,
you don't go run into somebody, Just somehow figure this
thing out. And we're getting to the point now where
nobody wants to try to figure it out anymore if
(17:38):
they want everything done for them, and they're just watching
all this AI stuff pop up right now. It's exactly
what we thought. And they've been hiding behind. Oh, it's
just going to augment everything and those that have making
all the money off of it, whereas it's making them
a lot of money. But eventually it's going to take
over humanity. So all this stuff is in play and
(17:58):
I'm getting off track a little bit. But when it
came down to getting paid, man, we did not get paid.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Yeah, hasn't changed all that much, and I think coaches
are far too replaceable in the minds of the front offices.
By the way, Joe, we're gonna take a quick break
here of the Book of Joe. You're an old catcher.
I need to get your thought on how the American
League Most Valuable Player Award vote turned out. Do that.
Right after this, welcome back to the Book of Joe,
(18:36):
Aaron Judge won the MVP Award again. It's amazing, Joe
that Joe a Otani and Aaron Judge combined have won
seven of the last ten MVP awards in Major League Baseball.
I personally cannot remember a time where the two best
players in the game were this far in front of
the field for the past five years. It's just amazing
(18:57):
the way they are the biggest names, the best players
in this game and have been. But I want to
get your take on this because after watching cal Ralely
play every day in the postseason, man, I was blown
away by everything that he did. The way he runs
a game is tremendous. There's no stat to show that
the way he goes out to the mount and the
pitching coach will not go out to the mount because
(19:18):
he knows. And I talk to Pete Woodworth about this,
he said, Cal has never made a bad decision. Maybe
they don't work out, but I trust him implicitly. I
see that I see him taking all these foul balls.
I grew to appreciate what he did even more because
you know that dude caught more innings than anybody else
behind the plate, hit switch hitter, hitting sixty home runs,
(19:39):
and he still didn't win the MVP Award, which tells
you how great, and I mean great, all time great
Aaron Judge has been. But Judge got seventeen first place
votes and cal Ralely got thirteen, which is closer than
you think because when you think about it, if two
of those votes are reversed, we got ourselves a tie.
So let me get your take first, Joe on how
(20:00):
it turned out here? Did the writers get it right
with Aaron Judge as the al MVP.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
I still believe Raley was and I mean just to really,
because I love to do simple better. Put Raleigh in
the Yankee uniform and put Judge in the saddle uniform,
and I totally believe it would have been Raley. I
swear that's just that's just the truth. Yeah, you just
described all the other things that Raley did during the
course of the season, plus epically best best offensive season
(20:27):
the catchers had. Uh, that's he's not gonna do that again.
It's way too hard to duplicate that with all you
just describe that the bumps to listen, every night you come,
it's like it's like playing a Friday night football game
and Saturday morning, how do you feel every where? Did
that come from all of a sudden? Your forearm is sore,
The back of your hand is sore, your your your
(20:47):
quad is sore. When you catch something's going to be
sore the next day. Something's just not going to be right.
And then all the responsibility, especially based on the way
games are formulated today, with the information prior to and
all the stuff that he's required to know going into
that game, that takes time. Now, listen, I'm not denigrating Judge.
(21:09):
Judge is wonderful, magnificent, I get it, but his pregame
is a lot different than the pregame of a rally
who not only has to absorb all this information but
also has taken care of his body. Then he's got
to get go through the process of getting ready for
the game. He does it every night. So I think
if you really sat down and broke it down, I
think I still believe Raleigh in this year, this past season,
(21:34):
to me, would be considered the MVP judges right there.
He's the second place, wonderful second place candidate. But again,
I just say, if you put different names on the
front of those uniforms, Rawley wins.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
Yeah, I'm going to disagree with you as much as
I agree with everything you said about what Cal brings
to a game, and I've seen it even behind the
scenes the way you know, as you said, especially in
today's game. You know, you have to have plans for
all thirteen pitchers on the staff, and it's a lot
just mentally, and each talked well about the physical grind
as well. If the numbers are even a little bit closer,
(22:09):
I would go Raleigh, But Joe, they're not that close.
I mean, Riley hit two forty seven. I know batting
average is not everything, but the gaps in ops ops
plus are tremendous. I mean, it's a chasm between the
two players. So to me, I think they got it right.
And I hate saying that because listen, last year, Bobby
(22:30):
wit Junior had one of the greatest years ever by
a shortstop and was not rewarded for it, you know,
a finished second to Judge for the MVP vote. It's
the same that this year with Cal Rawley, he probably
had and maybe take out probably the best year at
least offensively for a catcher in the history of the game,
and he's not the MVP. Again. I just think we're
getting back to what Aaron Judge is doing. The numbers
(22:51):
that he that he's putting up from age thirty to
thirty three. His comp is Babe Ruth. I mean, that's
what he's doing here. I mean, he's just on another planet.
This is a dude to it. He's six foot seven,
thirty one. He's twenty points past anybody else in Major
League Baseball. He won a batting title with fifty three
(23:12):
home runs. That's just not supposed to happen. That's how
much of a great hitter he is. And yeah he
was hurt late in the year. Probably DHD more than
certainly than he wanted, so the defensive component swings even
more to cal Raley's side. But I think the voters
kind of proved me right on this, Joe. When you
actually sit down, you start looking at the numbers, and
(23:33):
I know it's not a math exercise entirely, but my goodness,
the gap between what Judge did offensively and what cal
ralely did, even with sixty home runs, it's enormous, and
it's just hard to make up that gap.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
How would we calculate the work that he did behind
a plate? What kind of catching ops did he have?
Speaker 1 (23:51):
Yeah, I mean, listen, I don't think we can quantify that.
We try to with war. It's a bad approximation, it
really is, especially when it comes to the defensive side.
So you're right, I mean that is can't bring math
to that correct.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
And that's where we're so at some point I would
be fine with just, you know, some people popping up
and just taking the math and putting it over here
on the side, and just taking their eyeballs and putting
them on this side and voting. My vote could be
swayed based on the complete picture of what or Rawley
did versus the complete picture of what Judge did. Because
(24:27):
again we talked about this. I don't even know how
much judges numbers are impacted by intentional walks. I don't know,
and I don't even know to what extent Rawleys was.
I'm sure you have that, but at some point you
have to recognize the rest of the game, and that's
when it comes to most valuable player. Of course, as
batting average was less than man, it is hard when
you do put that gear on every day, you squad
(24:47):
every day and actually get to go on one knee,
which is really a lifesaver for the body. But nevertheless,
he does that every day, gets in that squad, he's
looking out at the game, everybody's looking in at the game.
He's like, you suggested thirteen guys that he's in charge there,
that he has to know every nuance about this guy,
combine it with the Skyt report and then and then
(25:09):
match it up against the guy coming up walking to
the batter's box. And did so well with that and
how deeply they got into the season. And I know
the voting was done prior to that. However, I just
I like, if there was some formula, if that's what's necessary,
other than your eyeballs, because that's really what we've I
don't know if it's evolved or evolve to, is the
fact that we have to have a number substantiating our method,
(25:32):
whereas what's wrong with your good old instinct baseball eyes
and understanding what this guy went through to accomplish all this,
and how do you evaluate that in regards to giving
him more of a bump, more points elevating his stance
in this race somehow? So for me, I mean, I
guess maybe as a former catcher, I'm a little bit
more sympathetic to that because I know, brother, your body
(25:54):
does not feel that good every day. And to do
what he did on a daily basis, and I don't
care about his batting average everything else that he did
on a daily basis, and that bat speed was the same,
that is really impressive.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
Yeah, especially working your swinging from both sides of the plate. Well,
thirteen voters at a thirty thought the same way as you, Joe.
It wasn't like this was unanimous. It was actually closer
than a lot of people thought. So it was not
a slam dunk for Aaron Judge. But yeah, sympathies go
to Cal Raley Man. He was, as you said, I'm
not sure you can have a year like that. Again,
(26:29):
he put up a historic all time year and it
wasn't enough to beat out Aaron Judge. We did have
a free agent signing Joe the first of the season.
Josh Naylor signs back with the Seattle Mariners five years,
ninety two point five million dollars. It's not surprising to
me that he came back to Seattle was such a
good fit. It may be surprising, though, that he signed
(26:52):
this quickly for this term. It's essentially it is exact
same deal that Anthony Santander has signed last year with Toronto.
Naylor had himself a really good year. I mean, you're
talking about a guy who I was really impressed watching
him in the postseason. Joe, it seemed like there were
times where he just decided, I'm not striking out. I'm
going to do whatever I can to put this ball
(27:13):
in play. And I think that's what helped make this
Seattle team get as far as they did, because that
team in the past offensively had way too much swing
a miss, and I think balancing out the lineup, you
don't want an entire roster of Josh Naylor's but you
need some of your lineup, as Toronto proved, I like
this signing. It was a good fit. Don't mess with it.
I give him credit. Obviously he was happy there and
(27:36):
he knew it was a good fit. Doesn't need to
shop it around and drag it out to January. He's
in a place I'm sure he likes with the contract
he likes. Good for them, good for the Mariners.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
The latter day John Cruk, I really like him too.
The big part, I mean, look at his age, because
his the look belies his age. He's actually very young.
I mean, if you look at him, you would think
that he's a little bit older than that. So when
I saw the age, I said, damn. I mean, I
totally get it right now. But yeah, you're right, don't
You don't need a whole team of those, but you'd
definitely like to have one to maybe two of those.
(28:09):
He's a baseball player, the way he's able to maneuver
on the bases. Also, that see for me when I'd
go scouting, even as a young Scott, I was like,
what thirty less than thirty twenty eight, twenty seven, and
I'm going and even at that point, I would recognize
if I saw a player that I kind of liked
that really showed me good instincts on the basis, that
(28:30):
would really accelerate how I felt about that player, just
based on that. When you show me instincts on the basis, wow,
I am always impressed because it's when you get out there, man,
to apply yourself like that. It takes a lot of
mental focus, and sometimes you're not going so well, but
you still go out there, I mean, hitting wise, but
you go out there and you still do things on
(28:52):
the basis to help your team win. Carlos Payn Carlos
could not run that well. Carlos really good base runner,
great acumen out there, saw things. It's always been impressive.
So with him, I look at that, and that base
running acumen on his part tells me everything I need
to know about this guy. Because what I'm saying is
not an illusion. He is that good of a baseball player.
(29:13):
At bats, they're trying to put the ball in play.
All the things that he does, you know, find first pace.
Everything he does reeks of being a baseball player, and
so free Seattle's perspective, I think it's a great sign
his method of hitting. Always would always stand up there.
I mean, whether it's a line drive to left field
or a bomb over the right field wall, whichever needed
in the moment, He's going to do that, and that's
(29:34):
what I like about it.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
Yeah, and people maybe start to wonder has affect Pete
Alonzo's market, you know, first basement, it's really not comparable.
I don't think Pete is going to be out there
for a while. You know, he's obviously more of a
slugger than Josh Naylor. But it's interesting, Joe that I
think Pete Alonso is going to wind up back with
the Mets because I don't think they have a good
fallback position. I think with Juan Soto there, you need
(29:58):
a right headed power back behind him. And if it's
not Pete Alonso, who is it. I mean, there's just
not another choice. So listen, it's not a done deal.
This is going to drag out. But you know, there's
talk that the Boston Red Sox are going to get
it in for Pete Alonzo, and why not. If you're
the Red Sox, you'd love to re sign Alex Bregman,
(30:19):
but that's gonna take a while, so you have to
maintain not just with these two Bregman and Alonso. You
have to maintain, you know, conversations and talks with with
other players. You just can't put all your eggs in
one basket. If your Boston Joe and you have some
money to spend, do you go Bregman or do you
go Alonso? I?
Speaker 2 (30:38):
Well, I like Alonso with the Mets, and if I
am the Red Sox, I stay with Bregman. I think
it's I think to me, that would in my mindsight,
that's way matches up. Bregman suited to that ballpark really well.
He can't pull the ball. He's got that short, little
choppy swing. I think, you know, Alonzo, he started trying
to pull the ball too much. It wouldn't be as
good as a hitter. So I and I think Alonso's proven
(31:00):
that he could handle that stuff in New York. I mean,
he did a great job this year. He's in a
in another contract year and the guy goes out there
and just nails it. I think he learned a lot
about himself this year, also regarding me, whether it's approach,
how I take care of myself, what kind of training
I do, just his focus everything, you know, He's a
gregarious personality, and I think he's kind of like learned
(31:20):
how to channel it to the point where it now
becomes more It could blend into the leadership role a bit,
and I think if you bring him back there, he's
going to feel that he's going to feel like he,
you know, I really belong here. I want to be here.
I can now be more open in a good way
regarding how I try to influence the players around me.
I think the people of New York appreciate him and
(31:42):
how he plays, so that makes all the sense as well.
And I think Bregman's got that Boston attitude a little bit.
He just kind of got that Boston swagger about him.
But I think his game is more student there, so
for me, status quo on both sides, I think both
teams should sign these guys.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
I'm with you, Joe, for all those reasons and for
the reasons we just talked about with Josh Naylor. You know,
when you have a good fit, you know that that
part in the as a cog and your machinery. Don't
mess around with it. Bragman is not just built for
Fenway because of that swing, and you look at his
career ops there. He just absolutely rakes in that ballpark.
He's a glue guy on that team. He is a leader.
(32:18):
He's a little bit like JD. Martinez with the way
he dives so deeply into hitting and preparation and figuring
out what other pitchers are doing against the lineup. He's
got tremendous value there that rubs off on, especially the
young hitters there. So I don't want to mess with
that if I'm Boston. Not to say that Pee Alonzo
is not that kind of a guy, but we know
that Peede Alonzo, and this is a good point you made, Joe,
(32:38):
he can get it done in New York. I mean,
that's always a box you need to check if you're
a New York general manager, president of baseball ops. Trying
to bring a player in the city doesn't bother him.
In fact, he thrives in it and he plays every day.
So I'm with you. There's no reason for either team
to go elsewhere. We'll see how those contracts work out.
Question for you on free agency, Joe, if you're the
(33:00):
Toronto Blue Jays, now you've really kind of redefined your friend.
I mean, it's the expectations now are and this is
what John Schneider was most proud of at the end
of the year. Of course, it hurt badly to lose
Game seven of the World Series, but they changed the
culture there. There's an expectation there that they should win,
and they're not settling for anything else, not just hey,
let's play meaningful games in September. And I hate hearing
(33:23):
that kind of nonsense. But if you're Toronto now, you've
got Bob Baschett, who's a free agent. You've got Kyle
Tucker who's out there as a free agent. But you
also have closers out there in Edwin Diaz, Devin Williams,
Pete Fairbanks. If you're the Blue Jays, what do you prioritize?
They do have some money to spend. They're already the
fifth highest payroll in the game. Do you go closer?
(33:46):
Do you go Kyle Tucker? Do you make sure you
bring back Bob Buschett, who probably is going to sign
with somebody as a second basement. I don't think he's
going to sign as a shortstop.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
Yeah, I would put him back at shortstop. Second base
is interesting. I still I don't know enough because I've
not been around him. Around his daddy, but I want
his bat out there. I'm even liking left field. Quite frankly,
I don't know. I'd just not been on the field
with them enough to know how exactly I feel about
his defense. I was wrong about Mookie Betts. Mokie was
way better than I thought he could be. But having
(34:16):
watched Bashett, I just like to put him in a
spot where he doesn't have to worry about his defense
at all, and just Rake. That's what I'd like to
do with him. If I'm the Blue Jays. Yeah, I'm
not a Hoffman guy. I like him, but I don't
like him in that role. I think if you put
him earlier in the game, he's really going to nail
it down. He's not going to make the same kind
of mistakes. Now, how much money do they have, I
(34:37):
mean they've they've been trying to get guys for years.
I know they've spent on Guerrera, but if they got enough,
dough Man, I'd go after all these dudes. I don't
know if they can or cannot, but I mean, at
least like Bishett and Ikadiez or Bishett and a Tucker.
If they feel like their bullpen is good enough. But
I think they should go after two of those three.
I mean hard, because if they don't, they're not getting
back to where they were this year. They need a
(34:57):
real short stop like they had at the at the
end of their net. That him and Az really made
a huge difference, huge difference for them. Their defense tightened up.
I love Ernie, he's outstanding. I love a lot about them, Barger,
all these guys. They got him, But if they remain
pat hand, they ain't going back there next year. I
don't think. I really don't see it, especially with their
(35:19):
pitching still in the state of flux. Starting wise, some
guys you know, Bieber and Shresury just that's not going
to be what it was this year. So I think,
you know, if they get some free dump money, I
take the two out of three, two out of three
a't bat, We'll go meet Loaf on him. I want
two out of three of Baschette, Tucker and like a Diaz.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
Yeah, I'm with him. I would do the closer whoever
it is. I obviously Diaz is the top of the list.
That's probably one hundred and twenty million dollars, and then
Bashett which I think between the two of those you
get for less than Kyle Tucker. Kyle Tucker's probably four
hundred million plus. But yeah, if I'm Toronto, I do
want to be aggressive about one of these closers out there,
(35:58):
starting with Diaz. Maybe he goes back to the Mets
like a lot of people think that, but he's going
to have a great market, so it's interesting. I think
Toronto will be aggressive even though, as you mentioned, they
had the blood contract at five hundred mil. They're building
something there, There's no question about it, and now's not
the time to back off. Hey, we're gonna take a
quick break. I want to talk to Joe about we
lost in one of his former players recently. Not a
(36:21):
big name, but anybody who gets the Major League Baseball
and pitches seventeen years in professional baseball should be recognized.
We'll do that right after this. Welcome Back to the
(36:43):
Book of Joe podcast with me, Tom Berducci and Joe
Madden and Joe was in May of twenty fifteen when
the Cubs traded Wellington Castillo for your vs. Medina. I'm
not sure if you remember that because your Visa only
wind up pitching five times for you. He was a
guy traded from the Seattle Mariners. Now it turns out
(37:07):
that was his last year in the big leagues, but
Medina wound up pitching seventeen professional seasons, including in Venezuela, Italy,
the Czech Republic, and Nicaragua. After Major League Baseball sad story.
Just last month, just thirty seven years old, he apparently
had a heart attack while driving, collided with another car,
(37:30):
and was killed. I'm not sure. I know players come
and go, Joe, but someone like that comes across your radar.
I'm just impressed by someone who loves the game that much,
keeps that major league dream alive, literally pitching all over
the world, right.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
Yeah, a wonderful fellow. I didn't even I swear I
didn't even see that. Man, that's horrible. I didn't know
about that. And yeah, briefly there just you know, one
of those like you're saying, a lifer do anything you
ask him to do, very eager, obviously a great team player.
But these guys, man, God, I got such a warm
(38:07):
place in my heart for them, as I kind of
identify with all that stuff based on you know, my
path to get to the major leagues and eventually doing
what I've been able to do. So, you know, God,
I didn't realize that, so you kind of caught me
right there. And he was he was. He was wonderful.
He's he loved lived, talk, spoke whatever, baseball and gosh,
(38:29):
I just the heart goes out to his family.
Speaker 1 (38:31):
Yeah. I mean, as you know, Joe, there's a magical
year in twenty fifteen. I know everybody looks at twenty sixteen,
but everything started to come together for that group in
twenty fifteen and a lot of guys, you know, theo
Epstein did a great job, especially with pitching, bringing in
guys from other organizations, and I just wonder what that
was like for you to try to meld a group together.
(38:52):
You had the core of you know, the guys who
were drafted, you know, the Bryan's, the Rizzo's. Rizzo was
not an original Cub draft pick. But you get the point,
Kyle Schwarber, but bringing together guys from the outside and
folding them into a team concept. And you did that
in twenty fifteen. The payoff was sixteen. What's the difficulty
of doing that?
Speaker 2 (39:12):
Just getting to know everybody quickly. I mean, you bring
different guys in and you know, the front officer or whoever.
They'll tell you know what they think about them. Sometimes
I had personal experience with different players where it's Khill Richards. Mean,
I had different experiences with them, But then again you
got to see them out there and you got to
decide what they're with their role is what they're capable
of doing, that level of trust you want to give
(39:34):
that player. There's players. Bart was a barker, and there
was a left handed got to switch hitter. God, he
had a great day in New York City. Gosh, I
can't remember his name right now. But these are role players, right,
so how do I utilize these role players? A lot
of was platoon advantage kind of stuff. Actually was kind
of fun, you know, because I wasn't really dictated how
(39:55):
to use these guys. Was kind of like a daily
baseball decisions creating the lineups. Like I said, giving somebody
a rest, Jonathan something like, give guys rests and then
you you just match things up, man, And it was fun.
These guys would do anything. We were good at safety squeezes,
We scored runners from third. We did all kind of
(40:16):
crazy things on the field, you know, you know the
five man infield that it was necessary. Picture goes in
the outfield for a bat or two, then it comes
back in. I mean, all this stuff was open because
all these guys absolutely were on board and on the
same page. It was fun. It's fun. It's fun when
you have like it was kind of like the the
(40:37):
very end of the fifteen sixteen seventeen, like the end
of like this moment as a manager when you could
just you know, you really did. You wrote out the plan,
talk to the coaches. You're using a lot of your
baseball experience at that point before it started leaning more
towards dictate from the front office on down. So it
was a blast. It was a great group. We had
(40:58):
a and then we just ran into like god, I mean,
the hottest pitching staff and Daniel Murphy, I mean, what
are you going to do? It was absolutely weird and
frustrating to watch how they dismantled this in four games.
In the players, we had no chance that pitching was
that good. Daniel was that good. So we went home.
But just think about it. The Cubs went to the
(41:18):
NLCS that year, eventually the World Series, the NLCS the
year after that. The three consecutive years where they had
really had not even stiffed that in a long time.
So it was the group culture that we created there.
It was very, as Brian Kenny likes to talk about,
very baseball. We just we played baseball, even including back
to back safety squeezes in a playoff game in Saint Louis.
(41:40):
It was fun because the guy's body in and quickly.
In that twenty fifteen season in spring training, my first
camp with them, and I'm why, you know, eyes open,
ears open, mouth shut. We're doing cutoffs and release in
one day and I'm here to tell you they're just
going through the motions. That's one time I did blow
up to think that you're going to take a fundamental
(42:03):
as a and run at that poorly, do not care
about it. So I think unintentionally that was a really
big moment for us and for me with that group
because I did not put up with that kind of
nonsense where you're gonna run drills poorly in spring training
and that kind of like set the tone I think
for the year. So it was a baseball league group,
was a tight group. It was really fun, great coaching staff.
(42:25):
I loved every second of it.
Speaker 1 (42:27):
And circling back to where we began your introductory press
conference with the Cubs far from boiler plate right. In fact,
it's when you offered them by shot and beer for
the press there, right. That was awesome, by the way, Joe,
both of us have big football games coming up on Saturday.
For me, it's Nebraska at Penn State. I'm a Penn
(42:49):
State graduate. My brother's on the coaching staff at Nebraska.
I will be out there in Happy Valley for that game.
And you, of course, of Lafayette and Lehigh, the one
hundred and sixty first meeting in rivalry, both come in
undefeated in the Patriot League winner take all. Wow.
Speaker 2 (43:10):
I'll be on the fifty yard line and I'm debating
whether to wear my raccoon code or not. I got
this really heavy, furry Canadian made raccoon coat that really
could withstand I think minus fifty. So I'm and although
I think the weather is going to be good, to
have both teams being undefeated, it's gonna be really fun.
And plus we're on or what two hundred year anniversary
(43:31):
of being a college Lafayette is so this year and
next year both games are going to be at Lafayette,
I guess. So next year is probably the celebration because
this was our term, but we permitted Lee haid a
half two consecutive years, and now we have two consecutive years.
I don't have that completely right. I'll look it up
so I could speak more intelligently about it. But I'm Jack,
(43:51):
Wendy and I are going to go on Saturday. I'm
flying up there on Thursday and then we'll head on
down there on Saturday and have a pretty complete day. Listen.
I know, Penn stay beautiful, wonderful, but I I Fisher
Field at Oafayette College. It's this little bowl kind of
a thing. It's the essence of pure college football. I'm
(44:13):
I get. I know, I actually played on that field
back in seventy three whatever it was, and so it's
kind of cool for me personally. But to have a
chance to win the Patriot League, Lehi's undefeated. I think
all the way through we lost at Oregon State, we lost,
I saw Princeton, we lost, Princeton, came up, your team
came up and beat us. But it's We've played a
lot better since that Princeton game. So I'm really curious.
(44:35):
It's a lot of fun and I'm looking forward to it.
Speaker 1 (44:37):
That is awesome both us looking forward to a great
day of football on Saturday. In the meantime, Joe, you
always bring us home with words of wisdom. What do
you have for this edition of the Book of Joe
to bring us home?
Speaker 2 (44:50):
You know? And I think it was rooted and when
I was talking about when front office personnel were asked
about gambling in baseball and the problems that they're confronted
with now and possible solutions, and everybody's like punting on
this one, and or they would just give like we
talked about the boiler plate answer, and that's what I was,
That's where I was this morning. Absolutely, I was kind
(45:11):
of disappointed that there wasn't any more demonstrative answers. And
I think that's where we, you know, we always wanted
to be so politically correct that we fail to say
what we think sometimes, and that's that's antithetical to what
I believe in. I love when somebody has a different
like you just disagree with me a couple of minutes ago,
(45:33):
and I love that stuff. God, that's the That's the
best part of an organizational meeting or even a meeting
before a series with your coaching staff when they say
I don't, I don't agree with you. God do I
love that anyhow, disappoint it and some of the answers
that are at really punt it, like going for the
coffin corner, staying away from it, and so Jeorge Benard
Shaw the single biggest problem in communication is the illusion
(45:55):
that it has taken place to communicate. Sometimes they just
add lip service to something and then you walk away
from it as though the other side really understands where
you're coming from. And it's so important to slow that
communication process down and understand that it's hit home, like
even in baseball when you're communicating with kids that speak
(46:16):
a different language, to really make sure that whatever you
had to say, which may have probably was important, that
it as it has been communicated, that both sides understand
what's going on right here. I only think you get
to that point with questioning, with disagreement, with healthy arguments.
You know, you have this constructive criticism flowing back and forth.
(46:36):
That's when communication really takes place. So anyway, that was
what motivated my thought for the day, and we kind
of covered it during the course of the conversation. But
I love truth tellers. You love truth tellers. I love
truth tellers, and again, at the end of the day,
please disagree with me and set me straight and tell
me where I'm wrong. I do enjoy that, and that's
(46:58):
the best way to run a major league coaching staff
and a major league organization. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:03):
Great, great observation, Joe. And especially as it relates to
these prop bets or micro bets and baseball. I don't
know why it's so controversial for someone to come out
and say, listen, I understand legal gambling. It's it's this
is what we have now, but we need guardrails, right,
Why do we have these prop bets because of their
invitations to trouble. Just get rid of them, don't cap
(47:25):
them as they're doing. Now, that's a nice step forward,
two hundred dollars max on a prop bet, But why
even have it? Is it really worth it? I don't
think so, for the risk it puts the players and
the game itself in only the.
Speaker 2 (47:39):
You know, the gambling community knows that how much money
they make on those particular bets. And again, it's just
I'm just you know, I'm adverse to all of this stuff.
You know that, I know it's part of the landscape.
But just because it's part of the landscape, it doesn't
mean it looks really pretty in the garden.
Speaker 1 (47:53):
Brother Well said, great job, Joe. We'll see you next
time on the Book of Joe you.
Speaker 2 (47:59):
Tube brother, Go Nitney Lyons, baby, and go go Leopards.
Speaker 1 (48:10):
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