January 21, 2025 • 45 mins
On a Tuesday edition of The Best Of The Doug Gottlieb Show: Doug and Dan Beyer discuss Ohio State's national championship game win over Notre Dame as Doug explains how the team that had the best paid players finished on top.
Doug welcomes Hall of Famer and former Browns' great Joe Thomas onto the show to talk about the NFL Playoffs, his career and something special that he is doing with the Colt Safety Impact Award.
Doug and Dan Beyer discuss Lamar Jackson's playoff performance, and they talk about him as a passer in the regular season and how he ranks among his peers.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
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Speaker 1 (00:44):
We do this thing in sports and it's really weird,
but I'm going to do it because there's nothing fake
about this man. Dan Byer, congratulations to you. I know
you didn't actually win the game last night, but since
they since since the day I met you, you have said, hey,
you know when we start talking about things you like,
(01:05):
you're like, oh, hi, state football, I love how to
state football? Like, really, how to state football? And I
just what? I just again, you're not the You're not
the fringe, But would take me through the last month
and a half or so where they lose to Michigan
(01:27):
and win a national championship.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
It's funny you say that because I thought about it
a lot over the last twenty four hours, because I've
thought a lot about it throughout this past season. I
think I've told people that beating Michigan was the only
thing that mattered this year because what had happened over
the previous three years and then when they didn't dug
there was an extreme hangover from it, and it for me,
(01:52):
it wasn't over after they beat Tennessee, like it's still lingered.
We you know, we talked on the show. I went
to the Rose Bowl and what a what a art
that they had against Oregon. But I even said to
the guy standing next to me in the crowd after
they jumped out to the big lead, I'm like, why
couldn't they do this against Michigan? And it's still like
that cloud hungover. But after they meet Oregon it was
(02:13):
kind of like it cleared a little bit. And then
the Texas win was as crazy as it was, and honestly,
it helps to face a team like Notre Dame with
the prestige. Something we talked about yesterday, there is I've
mentioned motivation a lot, and even though Ohio State was
the sizeable favorite, it is still Notre Dame to your point,
(02:35):
and there is some motivation with it, and it was
It was an I don't want to say an overwhelming feeling,
because I don't think it was overwhelming, but it made
everything somewhat okay, and so that lunatic fringe that still
wants to all of that was really softened. It changes
my perspective on a lot of things. And now it's
(02:56):
the third national championship in my lifetime that I've experienced.
All of them have different feelings. This one's a little
bit of a relief that it finally bring, you know,
they broke through, but it's also a great feeling considering
how the plan that they had and whether you don't
you like the money or you don't like the money
that they spent, the plan came to fruition and that
(03:18):
was so awesome to see last night.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Stug Gottlieb Show on Fox Sports. Trailer that's Dan Byer
of course, you see him all. You hear him all
the time on our show. You hear his own show
as well. On Sundays he has his I Want Your
Flex pod, which covers the National Football League as well.
So he's a man of many, many trades. I'll tell
you what I saw was, I was actually really impressed
(03:43):
with Notre Dame. From this perspective, they weren't as good
as Ohio State.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
And maybe this is.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
Me now understanding where my own program is or whatever,
but that first drive was all about preparation, toughness.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
I thought it was awesome, and you're like, man.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
The problem is that dialing up play after play after
play is just too hard, And I thought I thought
that to the layman it would sound condescending what Fowler
and Herbstreet were talking about and the level of fatigue
the offense felt like they'd gone through just to.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Get that drive.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
The reality is it was completely accurate, right that they
had to put everything they had into getting a seven
to nothing lead.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
And it's really interesting.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Right again, I won't use my perspective as a current
basketball coach of Tina slaws fifteen games in a row
and how many games we have led in the second half,
and look, we don't have our best player, our best
score At times we haven't had our two best players
are best scorers for substantial my time, Like we didn't
(05:01):
have our big guy until recently. Anyway, the point is
that part of it is once you go to your bench,
no one's depth is the same as their starters anymore.
And again that's the real difference in the spending at
the highest level and on down is you spend on
(05:22):
guys to keep them on your bench to give you depth,
whereas otherwise they will never come and they will never
sit there ever, and you just get worn out. By
being close or by taking a lead. You give up
so much in effort and energy that eventually they say
water finds its level.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Like look, Notre Dame played a hell of a game.
I mean if they make.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
That field goal and and you know they needed some
huge conversions to get the field goal, and when they're
down eighteen, they make that field goal, and it's still interesting.
But the reality is when they had to sell out
go Casinos, zero cover, they can't cover the best wide
receiver in the country man a man, just it can't happen.
Ohio State's just better and if there's a parallel between
(06:06):
anything else in sports. There's two sports that I thought
parallel what we saw last night. One was college basketball,
where conference championships don't really matter anymore, they just don't,
and the randomness of things, you know, goes out the window.
And the second one was Major League baseball, when you
(06:29):
have salary cap free teams, most times, the more games
you play, the teams with the better talent will win.
And the Dodgers spent more money essentially than anybody else.
I know, you could tell me some teams spend more
money with the Yankees, but the reality is what they
spent on show. Hey, that's just that's just clever accounting.
(06:49):
And Ohio States spent more money than anybody else, not
just on the players. Remember they got Chip Kelly, who's
been a super talented offensive coordinator, head coach in the NFL,
head coach in college to run their offense. They got
Jim Knowles for I think two million dollars run their defense.
And then they spend more money on the roster than
anybody else. That's money well spent. And I just thought
(07:12):
they were better, and the more it played out it
looked as such, and I don't think the score was
indicative of the difference in those two teams.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
The interesting part of it, and this is where what's
taken over the last I'd say leading up to this game.
I know ESPN had a discussion about it, sought on
social media as well, is because there still seems to
feel there still seems to be this even though it's legal,
This dirtiness a little bit with nil where if you're
paying so much for it In the Ohio state, argument
(07:43):
is we paid a lot of our guys to come back,
not everyone. Will Howard was a transfer. Jeremiah Smith obviously
is a freshman and had options to go elsewhere. Quinchohn
Judkins came from Ole miss Those guys came into the program.
But to keep Trevon Henderson and JTT and Jack Sawyer.
Caleb Downs came in as well. He would be a
part of the other group, but to keep that core
(08:05):
to come back and win. I do think changes the
narrative a little bit because those guys were in the program.
Now where those extra parts the pieces to put them
over the top. Maybe so, But that's where I think
that the argument is in the conversation is very interesting.
Just buying a team. Essentially you're almost investing into some
(08:25):
of your own players.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Yeah. Look, that's the smart way to do it.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Okay, just so we're aware, Like the best way to
do it is to get really good players and then
to keep them. It actually costs you more money to
get your guys outside of your program. I think what's
interesting is I don't know if they spent crazy money
on Will Howard, right, I feel like Will Howard was
at a relative bargain in comparison to other quarterbacks in
(08:51):
the market, And I think the brilliance to it is,
like you said, keeping the players that you want from
going to the NFL or leaving to go else where,
picking a couple of guys, but not overspending on quarterback.
If you overspend, if you have twenty million dollars and
you spend five million dollars on quarterback, if that quarterback isn't.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Good enough or gets hurt, you're screwed. I mean, look,
that's what happened to USC.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
You know, they spent a ton of money on Kayler
Williams both years and didn't have a ton of money
on the rest of the roster. And that's what it
looked like. So It's fascinating as you try and be
the GM or you hire a GM, what you what
you have to do in roster manipulation. But I actually
(09:39):
feel really good for Ryan Day, don't. I don't know
him at all at all. But what is Jack suaar what?
It's one of those things. I thought the whole flag
planting and they're fighting thing was embarrassing, But then when
I think back to it, what was he's saying is like,
you guys, are we still have to play like to
(10:02):
get a team back on track and to play as
well as they played against Tennessee. When you have that
amount of emotional drain from a loss like the loss
to Michigan, that's what coaching is.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
That's what coaching is.
Speaker 3 (10:20):
It's funny, Doug because and that's actually I wanted to
bring this point up before we wrapped it up. Being
a fan of being a fan as long as I have,
I remember that I remember the Earl Bruce days. I
remember they played BYU and a Citrus Bowl, which they
won like ten to seven, and they beat Texas A
and M and a Cotton Bowl. But Earl Bruce is
(10:42):
let go. So they bring in John Cooper and they
don't have great success. They lose a Liberty Bowl to
Air Force. Everybody talks about John Cooper and says couldn't
beat Michigan. But the other part of the equation was
they also weren't winning their bowl games, and that was
a really, really big deal thirty years ago. Winning your
bowl game was a badge of honor. It kept coaches
(11:06):
jobs maybe longer than they should, and it had them
cut loose earlier. Not only could John Cooper not beat Michigan,
but then they would go to a bowl game and
they couldn't win those games and that was held against him.
And I think we kind of have gotten away from that.
But now what I find interesting and I'm interested to
see on how things will go. Will coaches be criticized
if they have early round flameouts, will they stay longer
(11:29):
because of a deep run into this bracketed tournament? Really
really different, And I didn't know how I would feel
as well, because usually if you lose to Michigan, Doug,
your season's gone because Michigan's going to the Rose Bowl
or they're the team that's going to advance because that
game always meant so much.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
And now you have.
Speaker 3 (11:46):
This weird mix of emotions where honestly, there is still
this little gap in your heart where you're like, gosh,
we've lost them four times. Like, for as great as
this was, that still needs to be filled at some point.
But this was such a great victory that it's different
than it was thirty years ago. Like if you lose
to Mission and you Michigan and you win the Outbag Bowl,
(12:08):
maybe it wasn't the end all be all, but it
gave you a little something. This gave you a lot
of something. This gave you a whole lot of something.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
Yeah, I just again, I can't speak for personal experience,
you know, And I've said this has happened to us
a bunch of times. And obviously you're like, well, you've
lost a bunch of times, you know, Yes, I do,
And I know that sometimes you lose because the opponent.
Sometimes you lose because of the travel. Sometimes you lose
because you're not emotionally where you're supposed to be. Like
(12:39):
I thought one of the games we lost because we'd
won a game before and we didn't know how to
handle it, like our whole persona had changed, right. But
I think a lot of times you lose or you
get down because of the game before and you know,
you always say, don't let that opponent beat you twice,
(13:00):
and Michigan didn't beat them twice. And that was really, really,
really impressive because I just I thought that Ohio State
didn't just look better. I thought they looked really well coached.
It wasn't like they just lined up and said, hey,
we're just gonna you know, roll back and you know,
throw it up in the air and go get it
because we're just better than you. I thought they were
(13:21):
expertly coached and they played really, really hard. And obviously
it's national championship game, everybody plays hard.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
But that was a good football team.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
And it also speaks to the you know, Notre Dame
being there, Ohio State being there, for losing to Michigan.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
It speaks to the reality of what I believed in
the selection.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
I understand you're like, how can Alabama play in there
and lose to Ohio State, But again, their peaks, their
best is better than Indiana's best. They played a way
harder schedule and you have emotional letdowns. Notre Dame lost
to Northern Illinois at home, but that was after they
beat Texas A and M and there's no doubt that
(14:04):
arrogance creep crept in so and I know there does
come a point. Maybe that was people's thing with the
Alabama's like hey, look I get it to a point
they went they crept over that point.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
That's fine.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
But I don't believe we had the best twelve teams
play for a national championship. I just don't. I thought
it was a first year and the first year like coaching,
like first year on a radio show, like a first
year of marriage.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
Wrap right with rot with flaws.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
But I think the biggest flaw was those weren't the
twelve best teams, and they were seated in a way
that wasn't representative of even how they would have been
seated if you did say they were the twelve best teams.
Speaker 3 (14:42):
And we're going to see change for sure in the
next it possibly as soon as next year, and how
they're going to do it.
Speaker 4 (14:50):
This is the best of the Don dot Leaf Show
on Fox Sports Radio.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Let's welcome him in. He's Joe Thomas.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
He joins us here on the Doug Gottlieb Show on
Fox Sports Radio, and I want to get to you
and your thoughts on the playoffs.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
Thus far. But what is this Safety Impact Award that
you tell you're part of.
Speaker 5 (15:15):
Yeah, thanks for having me on.
Speaker 6 (15:17):
The Safety Impact Award is something that Cole has launched
to encourage safe and responsible fire and ownership. Myself, Clay Matthews,
Adam and a Chieri, Fletcher Cox you may have heard
of those guys. Yes, we all have selected charity nonprofit
organization minds Ducks Unlimited, which protects America's wetlands for clean
drinking water, clean air to breeze. And if you're able
(15:39):
to go to Safety Impact Award dot com, you can
vote for one of those nonprofit. Cold is going to
donate one dollar for the winning nonprofit for every vote
that gets cast, which obviously will be Ducks Unlimited. So
you're going to want to do that and vote for
Ducks Unlimited. And if you're watching the Super Bowl and
there's a safety which is my wife's favorite play and
(15:59):
foot all, it's everybody's favorite prop bet, if there's a
tapey and you're one of those people that voted for
the winning nonprofit, you get an opportunity to win a
portion of one hundred thousand dollars from Cordova. So it's
an all round win for everybody. It's something that I'm
really passionate about encouraging safe and responsible fire and ownership
and Ducks Unlimited as an organization I've supported for a
(16:21):
long time because of all the great work that they
do throughout North America. And it gives you a reason
to kind of p name and watch the big Game.
And I'll voting in cheer for a prop bet that
you don't actually have to put your cold, hard earned
cash down for. So I think it's something that's awesome.
You can also go to my social media Joe Thomas
seventy three, Twitter, Instagram and you can find the link there.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
Joe, I'm looking out at Green Bay. It is frozen over,
it is minus twenty five Windshiel And obviously youre Wisconsin,
Wisconsin native. I know you like all things outdoors, all
things wetland, especially you know most famously when you were drafted,
you were on a boat out in a lake when
(17:04):
you got drafted. How did you deal with Wisconsin winners?
Speaker 6 (17:10):
Well, I'm in Madison right now. Hopefully you're seeing some
ducks flying over the bay there. But it is never fun.
When you were a kid, you feel like the cold
doesn't bother you. I remember when I was in high school,
I actually made it a pride thing that I was
never going to wear a winter jacket to school one time,
just to see if I could do it. You know,
I remember Brett Farrell when I was a kid, you
always wore shorts into the facility when you go to
(17:34):
into the facility there in Green Bay. And so I
think there's like a little pride level of, you know,
if the cold is not going to affect me. However,
now that I've reached forty, I feel like that pride
is all dried up, and I am not loving this
cold anymore. Because I tried to go outside today and
put some firewood, and it was so cold that I
thought I was going to sweat, but instead snowflakes just
(17:55):
popped out of my pores. So I am already looking
forward to the warm, balmy, eighty degree summer days we
have here in Wisconsin.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
I agree, the summer is amazing. I don't know if
it makes up for the winner. What hasn't been that bad?
Speaker 2 (18:07):
This is? This is, this is a rough day.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
So your wife was excited about the safety in the
Eagles Eagles Rams game, But I guess the question becomes, uh,
you know you have these three of them were terrible
weather games. Terrible weather games, and we had this discussion
on air yesterday. I just wondered your opinion. Are you
a a football purist from the I like the games
(18:32):
outside in the elements, or it's like, hey, let's really
play this thing in a dome, so the best of
the best, the skill truly comes out in the best
athletes in the world in the NFL.
Speaker 6 (18:44):
I grew up in Wisconsin, like you mentioned, in Milwaukee
cheering for the Green Bay Packers, and weather was always
a huge part of the game. It was a huge
part of the home field advantage that the Packers had,
and I always enjoyed watching football outside. You know, when
I was a kid, we'd go out on New Year's
Day when we were off.
Speaker 5 (19:00):
A school and we'd have a snow bowl.
Speaker 6 (19:02):
We'd recreate the ice Bowl. And so for me, football
has always been a part of the elements. I know
that there's plenty of people that don't like it because
sometimes you know, the underdog has a chance to sneak
one out, and there's a little bit more of the
leveling of the playing field when you do play in
those elements.
Speaker 4 (19:18):
But I like that.
Speaker 6 (19:19):
I like that unpredictability. I like that when there is weather,
it gives you an extra reason to sort of tune
in and watch. Obviously, it makes the telecap more exciting
when the snowflakes are flying, but also there's a little
bit more unpredictability because we've seen these teams.
Speaker 5 (19:33):
All season long.
Speaker 6 (19:34):
You kind of know them, but then all of a sudden, no,
the weather's a factor, right, Who's going to be able
to handle the football? Who can be that best mutter
the best cold weather team. And I think the teams
that are the best that are the ones that don't
let it affect them. They don't think about it so much,
but they practice in it all the time. And you
look back to New England Patriots. They were one of
the best mutter teams of all time and they had
(19:55):
a great team, but they just practiced with wet balls,
They practiced in the elements, and they got used to
it and then they were able to block it out
on game day. So I think that's the key. And
if you're one of these teams that either are down
south and you think about it a bunch going into
the game, or you've never practiced in it, and you
make it a big deal. When it is cold or
it is snowy, then it's going to affect you because
your brain is like a bucket and it's like a
(20:16):
five gallon pail. You only got so much space to
fill it up with water. And if you're worrying about
what the snow is doing or all these other different
elements from the weather, like, you're taking away from that
brain space that could be thinking about how I'm gonna
beat my man and win this game.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
Joe the Kansas City Chiefs.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
There is the prevailing thought of most of it is
a fan driven, but you do see other players tweeting
about it, mentioning it.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
There's this thought that it's like the Grand Conspiracy.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
The league wants Pat Mahomes to keep getting shots at
the Super Bowl. As a guy that played as long
as you did and has covered it. What are your
thoughts on this idea that the Chiefs get away with
holding the Chiefs get away with the little other things
that other teams don't get away with.
Speaker 6 (21:06):
Well, Refereeing is always going to be part of every sport,
and actually the NFL has the least amount of officiating
that impacts the game. I mean, you're a basketball guy,
there's a whipple almost every time he come down the court,
and so in football's he's got ten or twelve flags
in a game. It's really not making a huge impact.
Of course, games come down to a few plays here
(21:28):
and there, and so it's easy for fans, especially the
losing fans, to point to, Oh, it is the officials,
they screwed us. But that's just not the case, right.
I think one thing that is true, however, is that
Patrick Mahomes is incredibly savvy and smart, and he utilizes
the roughing the pass or rules that quarterbacks have to
his advantage. And I think that's one of the things
the NFL really needs to take a hard look at
(21:50):
this offseason, because he has.
Speaker 5 (21:52):
Proven, along with Josh Allen and.
Speaker 6 (21:54):
Some of the other quarterbacks over and over again, that
the rules are so minute and so detailed about how
you can hit the quarterback that when three hundred and
thirty pounds humans are running at full speed at a
quarterback that's running a four to six, it's happening so
quickly that the human eye can't fully process and get
(22:14):
the call correctly time in and time out of when
the quarterback slides how you're allowed to hit them. And
so I think because of that, patric has done a
great job of sort of utilizing the rules by sliding late,
acting like he's going to go out of bounds and
then saying in bounds or doing a great job of
eliciting those fifteen yard penalty flags from the officials, Whereas
(22:38):
if you just had somebody that was watching in New
York that was able to see those things in a
quick replay and be able to call down to the
official that's on the field without any wasted time, no
formal challenge flag, none of this, and just be able
to help the officials in real time to be able
to officiate things that are happening too quickly because of
(22:58):
the rules to be able to effectively officiate. And so
I think one of the things the NFL really needs
to do in the off season is take a big
look at the sliding rule from the quarterbacks. And I've
tweeted about this a little bit at Joe Thomas seventy
three this season already that the slide was initially a
way for the quarterback to give up way before he
even got close.
Speaker 5 (23:18):
To anybody, and the rule says, as soon as he.
Speaker 6 (23:19):
Starts to slide, that's where the ball should be down.
But for whatever reason, officials have started placing the ball
like halfway in the quarterback slide as the place where
the quarterback was down, and also giving quarterbacks credit for
sliding at.
Speaker 5 (23:36):
The last second. Like we thought last weekend with.
Speaker 6 (23:38):
Patrick Mahomes, he was running into a crowd of three
defenders and when he's less than half a yard from
these guys who are already about to tackle him, he
just slides feed first and gets a fifteen yard penalty.
So they need to really reevaluate and maybe think about
something like they have in the NBA, where hey, you're
not allowed to fake slide and if you slide late,
it's on you. As a quarterback, you don't have those
protections because the slide is not meant to be weaponized.
(23:59):
The slide is to be a protection for the quarterback.
And that's it.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
I actually I'm gonna I'm gonna push back on two
parts of it if you don't mind.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
Okay, The first.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
Part is, I completely agree with you on the late slide.
The issue with the defense is those defenders they go
like headshots.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
I don't know what would be the knee area or
thigh area, Like if they.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
Were simply in a tackling position, you know where they
get kind of head up, see what you hit? Old
school like, we're all taught to tackle. Wouldn't that change it?
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Right?
Speaker 1 (24:33):
Because if you look at the Texans, yes, I agree
it was a late slide. But the point is that
if you weren't trying to take a guy's head out,
you wouldn't you wouldn't be diving at Pat Mahomes Pat
Mahomes running down the field.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
Does that make? Am I making sense to what I'm saying?
Speaker 1 (24:50):
Like you look at the way in which they're trying
to tackle, they're all just kind of diving at knees
with their heads and like you can't say I was
when to tackle him and then he went and slid.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
If you're going kind.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
Of head first diving at what would be their knees
or their feet?
Speaker 6 (25:08):
Well, I think the challenge for defenders is when you're
running full speed, you're expecting the ball carrier in a
normal situation to lower his shoulder to get low to
try to run through and split the defenders, and so
you're getting your body low, you're running full speed, and
so you're already in that crouch position, and when you
do make that commitment, you're expecting that quarterback or that
(25:28):
ball carrier to lower himself as well. But all of
a sudden, when he throws his feet first, you're already
down in that crouch position, and that's why it makes
it look like they're diving at his legs. But I
think the broader issue is, Hey, if there was no
late slide, we would never have defenders in this situation anyway,
because the quarterback would slide, the players would have plenty
of time to pull off, to stop, to be able
(25:50):
to get away from the quarterback, and then you wouldn't
put defenders in such a bund with is he going
to fly? Is he not going to flyde because how
many times have we seen players think that somebody's going
to slide, or think they're going to go out of bounds,
or think that they've got him in the grasp, I
mean in the pocket. Think about how many times we've
seen that where guys have the quarterback in the grass.
They're expecting the whistle to be blown and the sack
(26:12):
to be had, and then all of a sudden they
let him go and the quarterback runs around. And so
I think it just puts defenders in too much of
a bind and too much of a bad situation that
now you're in the playoffs, everything's on the line, you're
playing faster, and we're putting ourselves. We're setting ourselves up
for situations where a either quarterbacks do get hurt like
we saw with Trevor Lawrence getting hit in the head
(26:33):
earlier in the season, or guys let up and then
quarterbacks are able to take advantage of it and then
the defender looks like a bozo because he stopped, and
then everybody's pissed off of the defender.
Speaker 5 (26:43):
Why would you stop on that play?
Speaker 6 (26:45):
So I think it just makes it too difficult and
confusing and complex, and it really allows the quarterbacks to
use the rule to weaponize in their own favor, which
is not the original ton of the rule.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
Yeah, the only other pushback I would have would be again,
I know you're talking about process. The result is all
of those big name quarterbacks Lamar, Josh Allen, Pat Mahomes.
Obviously Jalen Hurts had a concussion, but he was back
like you go through and they were all playing in
(27:18):
the playoffs, which is the most important thing for the league,
because the league builds around the names of these quarterbacks, right,
and it's like, hey, look, I get it. I understand
the league feels like it's gotten soft and everybody makes
but the fact is that everybody wants to see those
quarterbacks play in January, and they all played in January.
So maybe those rules, which feel like they're not football
(27:40):
are helping us with the endgame.
Speaker 6 (27:42):
No, I totally agree with what you're saying, and I
am all horror having these rules that protect the quarterback because,
like you said, if all of a sudden Josh Allen,
Patrick Mahomes weren't playing this weekend, how many people would
watch Probably half the amount of people who would watch
the game, you know, then they wouldn't have this national,
worldwide interest that it does because those guys are He's
in our game. I think even further reinforces my point.
(28:05):
Right now, we're incentivizing quarterbacks to go to the absolute
last second up to the defender before they slide and
give themselves up, which is putting defenders and themselves in
risky positions and situations where yeah, they might get a
fifteen yarder. I'll reflect back on Trevor Lawrence earlier in
the season. His wasn't as late as Patrick Mahomes. But
because of the reoccurrence of these quarterbacks sliding late and
(28:28):
being deceptive with are they sliding, are they going on
the bounds or not?
Speaker 5 (28:31):
Now you're putting.
Speaker 6 (28:32):
Defenders in a bund where do.
Speaker 5 (28:34):
They make a decision to go hit them or do
they not?
Speaker 6 (28:36):
And I think more times than not, especially late in
the season, they're going to try to hit them because
they don't want to be the dinguses that are social
media memes for just standing there as the quarterback runs
by them. Whereas if we would discourage the late slide
and allow it to be the rule which which it
was originally intended for, which was a way for the
quarterback to be running an open space and to give
(28:57):
himself up before he gets hit, you wouldn't incentivize the
late slide, the fake slide, all those things, and you
would keep quarterbacks much further away from defenders, thus allowing
them to be safe and on the field for all
of us to enjoy the great battles and matchups like
we're going to see this weekend.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
Does the Cleveland Brown in you root for the bills
this weekend.
Speaker 6 (29:19):
Gom Yeah, funny you said that, because I was thinking
the whole playoffs, like what a perfect playoff It was
Detroit and Buffalo in the Super Bowl. You know, two
Rost Belt teams, two teams that have these loyal fan bases,
just like Cleveland, from the Midwest, from the Rost Belt,
that have never won a Super Bowl. An opportunity for
them to play like that was what I was dreaming of,
(29:42):
because I do have a definite piece of my heart
in Buffalo, in Detroit, in those other fan bases that
have suffered similarly like Cleveland, with lots of losing cities
that have gone through some tough times, blue collar, chip
on our shoulder mentality in the fan base. And I
like to see those fans that have been lowered their
(30:05):
whole life but never seen the championship get an opportunity
to feel and taste what it's like to win a championship.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Joe, listen, uh uh, your your your post career is
as interesting to me as your career. But listen, in
the off season, you want to come up and get
out on on on this lake or throw throw reel
in the throw reel in any of these lakes, in Wisconsin.
You let me know, I'll get in the car and
I'll drive to meet you.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
But I truly appreciate joining us.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
It's a good cause and encourage people to go to
all your social media sites as just a way to
get into it. Thanks so much for joining us on
Fox Sports Radio.
Speaker 6 (30:40):
Hey, I appreciate it. Thank you for having me on.
And I'll absolutely take you up on that Green Bay
one of the most underrated fishing destinations in the country.
Muskie Walleye, Small Mall past. But don't tell anybody. We
want the fishing spots to ourselves.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
I just just see it, like literally, I'm looking at
My house is on the bay, so I have my
players come over.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
They fish off my doc.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
But we'll get on a boat and you'll teach You'll
teach me how to reel them in the summer.
Speaker 6 (31:03):
Okay, I'm ready. Thank Doug.
Speaker 4 (31:06):
Fox Sports Radio has the best sports talk lineup in
the nation yet. Catch all of our shows at Fox
sports Radio dot com and within the iHeartRadio app.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
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Speaker 2 (31:35):
Should be do do doo do do do do do
do so.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
I guess before we get to buyer's remorse, I guess
we do have to talk about this, right, which is, uh,
what do we do with some of the discussion over
race and quarterback play? And obviously Ryan Clark is probably
(32:09):
at the center of it, and I'm not trying to
do to him what others have done to me and
take things out of context. But this is a show
where we've never gotten caught up in the unreasonable, the
the fringe stuff, the race baiting stuff, and not to
(32:33):
the point where we push.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
Back directly at it.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
It's like the It's like the Marcus Freeman being the
first black coach to coach the National Championship Game. I
actually think I understood what he said and he sort
of downplayed it and how we shouldn't be judged, you know,
we shouldn't talk about how he's black, but he was
the first black man to coach a team in the
National Championship Game. That's a historical marker. That is a
(32:56):
big thing. Let's not let's not be so obtuse to
history that we don't go like, yeah, that's kind of
a big thing and give.
Speaker 2 (33:02):
Him his due.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
But I just I'll be honest with you, I don't
and maybe this is you can't ever tell how somebody feels.
Any of my thoughts about about Lamar Jackson have never
had anything to do with his race. It's always been
about Hey, in order to win a Super Bowl, you
(33:27):
have to be able to lead your team throwing the football,
specifically from the pocket, and this weekend was the first
playoff game of substance.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
Right.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
I know he'd won two previous playoff games in the
first round last week and then going back with it
last year or the year before, but he hadn't done
it in the fashion that he did it this week,
which was come from behind eighty in this case, I
think eighty eight yards to lead your team to a
touchdown to potentially tie the game, and then Mark Andrews
(33:59):
drop at two point version. I can't discount the turnovers
earlier in the game, but I have to give him
credit for when it mattered. The big question had been
can you come from behind? And to come from behind
you generally have to throw the football, and this time
on the road and in elements, and he did so.
(34:20):
On the other hand, if he wins the MVP and
he's never even gotten to his Super Bowl, we're left
sitting there going, Hey, in his first five or so years,
he had an elite defense, and realistically, this defense in
that game was good enough. They got two straight stops
to start the second half against the Buffalo Bills on
(34:40):
the road, like he had enough. And it wasn't his
fault Mark Andwers turned the ball over on a beautiful pass.
It wasn't his fault that Mark Andrews dropped the ball
in the end zone. I just there's no way in
which I can view him in a quarterback driven league.
(35:02):
Like just last week we killed people killed Justin Herbert,
who does not have Derrick Henry, who does not have
you know, and you know you don't have his eight Flowers,
but he's had and they've drafted talent about if he
doesn't have Mark Andrews, And because of his playoff shortcomings,
we completely wipe out what he's done the regular season.
(35:24):
Same thing for Sam Darnold, we will wipe it out.
We don't do that for Lamar Jackson, buyer, where are you?
Speaker 2 (35:32):
How do you? How do you handle this conversation?
Speaker 3 (35:35):
Yeah, this is interesting because there's there are a lot
of different levels to it. But for some for some reason,
I think that there's this group of football fans that
feel like Lamar Jackson just can't throw the football, and
it's absurd. It tells on yourself, It tells on yourself
that you are someone who doesn't watch football or pay
(35:59):
attention to football. Because his passer rating this past season
was one of the highest that we have seen in
NFL history. And I feel like that the last drive,
Doug that you talk about, like, if that group of
people can't see it, then then there's no helping them.
But it doesn't take away from the fact. And I
think that Mike Sando, who's friend of the show, has
(36:22):
been on the show the graphic that he had in
his athletic article on players who play better in the
postseason as opposed to the regular season and vice versa,
that that is Lamar Jackson. And Mitchell Schwartz, former lineman
from the Chiefs and Browns, gotten in on the conversation
and said, basically, you have two turnovers in that game
(36:45):
against Buffalo that put your team in awful situations. The
fumble was probably the worst of the two, but the
past wasn't much better. But the fumble was just doing
too much. And so that's how I look at it
that way, Like Lamar has sold me on who he
is as a quarterback, you just have to be better
(37:06):
in the playoffs, and that means taking care of the football,
something he didn't do against the Buffalo Bills. He has
to be better in those playoff situations. And I think
he even admitted it in his postgame you know comments
talking about Mark Andrews, is I turned it over twice.
I can't do that.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
Yeah, I thought, Look, I think he's really matured, he's accountable,
he's matured. I do think they threw the ball too much,
but some of that was out of necessity. They were
stacking the box right, and but I thought in the
first half, especially when they just could have been you know,
just feeding Derrick Henry and bringing in Justice Hill, like
I thought, there should have been a greater volume of it,
(37:45):
and also a volume of Lamar Jackson running like you
have two great options run the football on any play.
Speaker 3 (37:52):
I think now you eliminate yourself from having any credibility.
If you're still questioning whether he can throw the ball, period,
well look I think you all.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
I think you always did, okay, because what happens is
when people say he's not an e leite thrower, previously
have said he's not an the lead thrower. Like that's
different than saying a guy can't throw a football like
Tim Tebow couldn't throw football, sure right, like legit for
NFL quarterbacks. And again this is the top one percent
of people who throw a football. He wasn't on that chart.
(38:26):
Now for Lamar Jackson, you're we're holding you up against
Pat Mahomes, Josh Allen, Justin Herbert, Jalen Hurts, Joe Burrow,
Joe Burrow, Jared Goff, et cetera, et cetera. Like you
got to be judged among your peers, and amongst these peers.
He is not the thrower of Joe Burrow. He is
(38:47):
not the thrower of Josh Allen. He is not the
thrower of Pat Mahomes. On the other hand, they're nowhere
near him as an athlete. Pat Mahomes has great est
capability and he's somewhere in between Josh Allen's a great runner.
He's much more John Elway, but like he is. Okay,
so it's all a balance, right.
Speaker 3 (39:08):
Yeah, but I would push back, like his passer rating
again was one nineteen this past year, best in the NFL,
and in fact rates all time in the National Football League.
Maybe not top four, top five, but at one point
you was so even that point I think is no,
he's proven it. He had a better passer rating than
(39:29):
Joe Burrow, and Joe Burrow threw forty three touchdowns and
nine interceptions this year.
Speaker 2 (39:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
So but if I asked you, and I would say
you'd watch more full Raven games than I have. If
you had eighty yards to go and you had to
simply throw a football, would you take Lamar Jackson to
take you?
Speaker 2 (39:49):
But no, no, no, no, I know, I understand that's not.
Speaker 3 (39:52):
The NFL though anymore, that is not the NFL. You
have to be mobile, like there's so few non mobile quarterbacks.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
Well there's a difference scene don Okay, again this is
there's a different scene non mobile. And again, so like
pick any of these other guys, Joe Burrow is not
non mobile. Joe Burrow's not of those guys that I
mentioned he's the least mobile because of injury, but he's
not non mobile. He's not Tom Brady. Okay, and Tom
and he's not Tom Brady, so he moves more. Yes,
(40:21):
I'm just ask you, if you have eighty yards, here's
the here's the only question. If you have eighty yards
first and ten, you're down seven or eight in the playoffs, Okay,
Josh Allen, Pat Mahomes, Joe Burrow, Lamar Jackson, Jalen.
Speaker 3 (40:40):
Hurts Overhurts in a second, I would take him over
Hurt second.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
I would take him over Hurts. But I've never been
the big Hurt Sky, never been a big hurt Sky.
But again, okay, so you take him over Hurts. We
take more, Josh Allen, we taken more. Pat Mahomes, we
take him over. Would you take him over.
Speaker 2 (41:03):
Matt Stafford in a dome? You're faster in a dome.
Speaker 3 (41:13):
I think it's I think it's close. I think that
I mean Stafford Wiley veteran eighty yards. You feel like
he's gonna be able to get it done, but do
it in a different way.
Speaker 1 (41:24):
And he did in the Super Bowl. He did in
the Super Bowl with one wide receiver. Yeah, like, listen again,
I can I agree with you. Look, Lamar Jackson, here's
what Lamar Jackson has done that I don't think we
give him enough credit for. Okay, we do this thing,
and I think Josh Allen has gotten credit for it,
and I think Lamar has gotten some credit for it,
but not enough. Many times we think the guy who
(41:46):
comes into the NFL and what how we view him
in the NFL.
Speaker 2 (41:50):
That's who he is.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
And we were told, and you and I are in
our forties, right, we've been told our entire lives that
you know the hardest saying, I can't really improve accuracy, right,
And we've been told that Lamar Jackson and Josh Allen
have defeated that narrative, right, Like he's become a really
good throw with the football. I don't believe he's in
(42:12):
the solar system yet I understand the numbers. I don't
believe he's in the solar system of Stafford or or Burrow.
And Burrow doesn't have a great arm, but Burrow it's
he usually puts it where it's supposed to be right
and doesn't have a great offensive line or whatever. But
I think he has massively improved and He's even improved
(42:34):
in his accountability, leadership, all these other little things like
he keeps getting better and better and better. It just
didn't play out as such in the playoffs this year.
I still wouldn't take him ahead of Josh Allen. I
wouldn't have take him aead of Pat Mahomes. I wouldn't
take him ahead of Stafford, honestly, because Stafford did that
exact thing we're talking about, the exact thing that that
(42:54):
Lamar Jackson just.
Speaker 2 (42:55):
Did in the playoffs. Sure only he did in the
Super Bowl to win a Super.
Speaker 3 (42:58):
Bowl, I would I would probably take it over josh Allen,
to be honest with you, I think that what Josh
Allen like does on a whole for his team, especially
this year, is now a little bit different. But I'd
probably take Lamar in that situation because.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
Josh Awlln's made so many bonehead mistakes in the past.
Just that.
Speaker 3 (43:16):
But I also think that Lamar is really really good,
And the mobility aspect of it is because you have
to worry about him so much, and not that you
don't have to worry about Josh Allen. But Lamar is
just a different sort of guy when he gets out
into the open field. He's just he's more dynamic and
even on the past to Wallace on the scramble, it's
(43:40):
not that josh Allen can't make that play, because Josh
Allen can make that play, It's just that Lamar makes
it look easier. I'd take Mahomes first. I'd take probably
Burrow second, because I've seen those guys do it in
those money situations.
Speaker 1 (43:55):
Josh Allen did basically throw a perfect game in Kansas City, thirteen.
Speaker 2 (44:00):
Know he did.
Speaker 1 (44:01):
He's yeah, and again he'll get a chance to add
to that lore or to come back to the pack
based upon what he does this weekend. And we are
we are definitely prisoners of the moment. But I'll say this,
when they came out, I watched a ton of Lamar
Jackson College a ton, and I always felt like when
(44:22):
they played the better teams and they made him throw, man,
he struggled, and somebody was he wasn't surrounded by the
greatest roster. But his last bowl game, I think they
play Mississippi State, was bad, bad, And I just you know,
I've seen him at times and he has really really improved,
really improved, and I think that that's a testament to
(44:45):
not just working, but working on the right things, on
being accountable for your own flaws, and he is not
the guy who he was billed to be when he
came into the NFL, and that's the thing that he
and Josh Allen have absolutely flipped in terms of narrative
and things you can and can't approve,
Thanks for listening to the best of The Doug Gottlieb
Show podcast. Be sure to catch us live every weekday
three to five Eastern twelve two Pacific on Fox Sports Radio.
Find your local station for The Doug Gottlieb Show at
Foxsports Radio dot com, or stream us live every day
on the iHeartRadio app by searching FSR coming up America
Doug Gottlieb Show.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Sports Radio. I hope you're having a great day.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
The Doug Gottlieb Show broadcast live every single day from
the ti Raq dot com studios.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Tire rag dot com. Well you get there.
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They have an unmatched selection of fast, free shipping, free
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Speaker 2 (00:38):
It's way tire buying should be. Hope you are good.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
We do this thing in sports and it's really weird,
but I'm going to do it because there's nothing fake
about this man. Dan Byer, congratulations to you. I know
you didn't actually win the game last night, but since
they since since the day I met you, you have said, hey,
you know when we start talking about things you like,
(01:05):
you're like, oh, hi, state football, I love how to
state football? Like, really, how to state football? And I
just what? I just again, you're not the You're not
the fringe, But would take me through the last month
and a half or so where they lose to Michigan
(01:27):
and win a national championship.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
It's funny you say that because I thought about it
a lot over the last twenty four hours, because I've
thought a lot about it throughout this past season. I
think I've told people that beating Michigan was the only
thing that mattered this year because what had happened over
the previous three years and then when they didn't dug
there was an extreme hangover from it, and it for me,
(01:52):
it wasn't over after they beat Tennessee, like it's still lingered.
We you know, we talked on the show. I went
to the Rose Bowl and what a what a art
that they had against Oregon. But I even said to
the guy standing next to me in the crowd after
they jumped out to the big lead, I'm like, why
couldn't they do this against Michigan? And it's still like
that cloud hungover. But after they meet Oregon it was
(02:13):
kind of like it cleared a little bit. And then
the Texas win was as crazy as it was, and honestly,
it helps to face a team like Notre Dame with
the prestige. Something we talked about yesterday, there is I've
mentioned motivation a lot, and even though Ohio State was
the sizeable favorite, it is still Notre Dame to your point,
(02:35):
and there is some motivation with it, and it was
It was an I don't want to say an overwhelming feeling,
because I don't think it was overwhelming, but it made
everything somewhat okay, and so that lunatic fringe that still
wants to all of that was really softened. It changes
my perspective on a lot of things. And now it's
(02:56):
the third national championship in my lifetime that I've experienced.
All of them have different feelings. This one's a little
bit of a relief that it finally bring, you know,
they broke through, but it's also a great feeling considering
how the plan that they had and whether you don't
you like the money or you don't like the money
that they spent, the plan came to fruition and that
(03:18):
was so awesome to see last night.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Stug Gottlieb Show on Fox Sports. Trailer that's Dan Byer
of course, you see him all. You hear him all
the time on our show. You hear his own show
as well. On Sundays he has his I Want Your
Flex pod, which covers the National Football League as well.
So he's a man of many, many trades. I'll tell
you what I saw was, I was actually really impressed
(03:43):
with Notre Dame. From this perspective, they weren't as good
as Ohio State.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
And maybe this is.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
Me now understanding where my own program is or whatever,
but that first drive was all about preparation, toughness.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
I thought it was awesome, and you're like, man.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
The problem is that dialing up play after play after
play is just too hard, And I thought I thought
that to the layman it would sound condescending what Fowler
and Herbstreet were talking about and the level of fatigue
the offense felt like they'd gone through just to.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Get that drive.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
The reality is it was completely accurate, right that they
had to put everything they had into getting a seven
to nothing lead.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
And it's really interesting.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Right again, I won't use my perspective as a current
basketball coach of Tina slaws fifteen games in a row
and how many games we have led in the second half,
and look, we don't have our best player, our best
score At times we haven't had our two best players
are best scorers for substantial my time, Like we didn't
(05:01):
have our big guy until recently. Anyway, the point is
that part of it is once you go to your bench,
no one's depth is the same as their starters anymore.
And again that's the real difference in the spending at
the highest level and on down is you spend on
(05:22):
guys to keep them on your bench to give you depth,
whereas otherwise they will never come and they will never
sit there ever, and you just get worn out. By
being close or by taking a lead. You give up
so much in effort and energy that eventually they say
water finds its level.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Like look, Notre Dame played a hell of a game.
I mean if they make.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
That field goal and and you know they needed some
huge conversions to get the field goal, and when they're
down eighteen, they make that field goal, and it's still interesting.
But the reality is when they had to sell out
go Casinos, zero cover, they can't cover the best wide
receiver in the country man a man, just it can't happen.
Ohio State's just better and if there's a parallel between
(06:06):
anything else in sports. There's two sports that I thought
parallel what we saw last night. One was college basketball,
where conference championships don't really matter anymore, they just don't,
and the randomness of things, you know, goes out the window.
And the second one was Major League baseball, when you
(06:29):
have salary cap free teams, most times, the more games
you play, the teams with the better talent will win.
And the Dodgers spent more money essentially than anybody else.
I know, you could tell me some teams spend more
money with the Yankees, but the reality is what they
spent on show. Hey, that's just that's just clever accounting.
(06:49):
And Ohio States spent more money than anybody else, not
just on the players. Remember they got Chip Kelly, who's
been a super talented offensive coordinator, head coach in the NFL,
head coach in college to run their offense. They got
Jim Knowles for I think two million dollars run their defense.
And then they spend more money on the roster than
anybody else. That's money well spent. And I just thought
(07:12):
they were better, and the more it played out it
looked as such, and I don't think the score was
indicative of the difference in those two teams.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
The interesting part of it, and this is where what's
taken over the last I'd say leading up to this game.
I know ESPN had a discussion about it, sought on
social media as well, is because there still seems to
feel there still seems to be this even though it's legal,
This dirtiness a little bit with nil where if you're
paying so much for it In the Ohio state, argument
(07:43):
is we paid a lot of our guys to come back,
not everyone. Will Howard was a transfer. Jeremiah Smith obviously
is a freshman and had options to go elsewhere. Quinchohn
Judkins came from Ole miss Those guys came into the program.
But to keep Trevon Henderson and JTT and Jack Sawyer.
Caleb Downs came in as well. He would be a
part of the other group, but to keep that core
(08:05):
to come back and win. I do think changes the
narrative a little bit because those guys were in the program.
Now where those extra parts the pieces to put them
over the top. Maybe so, But that's where I think
that the argument is in the conversation is very interesting.
Just buying a team. Essentially you're almost investing into some
(08:25):
of your own players.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Yeah. Look, that's the smart way to do it.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Okay, just so we're aware, Like the best way to
do it is to get really good players and then
to keep them. It actually costs you more money to
get your guys outside of your program. I think what's
interesting is I don't know if they spent crazy money
on Will Howard, right, I feel like Will Howard was
at a relative bargain in comparison to other quarterbacks in
(08:51):
the market, And I think the brilliance to it is,
like you said, keeping the players that you want from
going to the NFL or leaving to go else where,
picking a couple of guys, but not overspending on quarterback.
If you overspend, if you have twenty million dollars and
you spend five million dollars on quarterback, if that quarterback isn't.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Good enough or gets hurt, you're screwed. I mean, look,
that's what happened to USC.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
You know, they spent a ton of money on Kayler
Williams both years and didn't have a ton of money
on the rest of the roster. And that's what it
looked like. So It's fascinating as you try and be
the GM or you hire a GM, what you what
you have to do in roster manipulation. But I actually
(09:39):
feel really good for Ryan Day, don't. I don't know
him at all at all. But what is Jack suaar what?
It's one of those things. I thought the whole flag
planting and they're fighting thing was embarrassing, But then when
I think back to it, what was he's saying is like,
you guys, are we still have to play like to
(10:02):
get a team back on track and to play as
well as they played against Tennessee. When you have that
amount of emotional drain from a loss like the loss
to Michigan, that's what coaching is.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
That's what coaching is.
Speaker 3 (10:20):
It's funny, Doug because and that's actually I wanted to
bring this point up before we wrapped it up. Being
a fan of being a fan as long as I have,
I remember that I remember the Earl Bruce days. I
remember they played BYU and a Citrus Bowl, which they
won like ten to seven, and they beat Texas A
and M and a Cotton Bowl. But Earl Bruce is
(10:42):
let go. So they bring in John Cooper and they
don't have great success. They lose a Liberty Bowl to
Air Force. Everybody talks about John Cooper and says couldn't
beat Michigan. But the other part of the equation was
they also weren't winning their bowl games, and that was
a really, really big deal thirty years ago. Winning your
bowl game was a badge of honor. It kept coaches
(11:06):
jobs maybe longer than they should, and it had them
cut loose earlier. Not only could John Cooper not beat Michigan,
but then they would go to a bowl game and
they couldn't win those games and that was held against him.
And I think we kind of have gotten away from that.
But now what I find interesting and I'm interested to
see on how things will go. Will coaches be criticized
if they have early round flameouts, will they stay longer
(11:29):
because of a deep run into this bracketed tournament? Really
really different, And I didn't know how I would feel
as well, because usually if you lose to Michigan, Doug,
your season's gone because Michigan's going to the Rose Bowl
or they're the team that's going to advance because that
game always meant so much.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
And now you have.
Speaker 3 (11:46):
This weird mix of emotions where honestly, there is still
this little gap in your heart where you're like, gosh,
we've lost them four times. Like, for as great as
this was, that still needs to be filled at some point.
But this was such a great victory that it's different
than it was thirty years ago. Like if you lose
to Mission and you Michigan and you win the Outbag Bowl,
(12:08):
maybe it wasn't the end all be all, but it
gave you a little something. This gave you a lot
of something. This gave you a whole lot of something.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
Yeah, I just again, I can't speak for personal experience,
you know, And I've said this has happened to us
a bunch of times. And obviously you're like, well, you've
lost a bunch of times, you know, Yes, I do,
And I know that sometimes you lose because the opponent.
Sometimes you lose because of the travel. Sometimes you lose
because you're not emotionally where you're supposed to be. Like
(12:39):
I thought one of the games we lost because we'd
won a game before and we didn't know how to
handle it, like our whole persona had changed, right. But
I think a lot of times you lose or you
get down because of the game before and you know,
you always say, don't let that opponent beat you twice,
(13:00):
and Michigan didn't beat them twice. And that was really, really,
really impressive because I just I thought that Ohio State
didn't just look better. I thought they looked really well coached.
It wasn't like they just lined up and said, hey,
we're just gonna you know, roll back and you know,
throw it up in the air and go get it
because we're just better than you. I thought they were
(13:21):
expertly coached and they played really, really hard. And obviously
it's national championship game, everybody plays hard.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
But that was a good football team.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
And it also speaks to the you know, Notre Dame
being there, Ohio State being there, for losing to Michigan.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
It speaks to the reality of what I believed in
the selection.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
I understand you're like, how can Alabama play in there
and lose to Ohio State, But again, their peaks, their
best is better than Indiana's best. They played a way
harder schedule and you have emotional letdowns. Notre Dame lost
to Northern Illinois at home, but that was after they
beat Texas A and M and there's no doubt that
(14:04):
arrogance creep crept in so and I know there does
come a point. Maybe that was people's thing with the
Alabama's like hey, look I get it to a point
they went they crept over that point.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
That's fine.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
But I don't believe we had the best twelve teams
play for a national championship. I just don't. I thought
it was a first year and the first year like coaching,
like first year on a radio show, like a first
year of marriage.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
Wrap right with rot with flaws.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
But I think the biggest flaw was those weren't the
twelve best teams, and they were seated in a way
that wasn't representative of even how they would have been
seated if you did say they were the twelve best teams.
Speaker 3 (14:42):
And we're going to see change for sure in the
next it possibly as soon as next year, and how
they're going to do it.
Speaker 4 (14:50):
This is the best of the Don dot Leaf Show
on Fox Sports Radio.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Let's welcome him in. He's Joe Thomas.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
He joins us here on the Doug Gottlieb Show on
Fox Sports Radio, and I want to get to you
and your thoughts on the playoffs.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
Thus far. But what is this Safety Impact Award that
you tell you're part of.
Speaker 5 (15:15):
Yeah, thanks for having me on.
Speaker 6 (15:17):
The Safety Impact Award is something that Cole has launched
to encourage safe and responsible fire and ownership. Myself, Clay Matthews,
Adam and a Chieri, Fletcher Cox you may have heard
of those guys. Yes, we all have selected charity nonprofit
organization minds Ducks Unlimited, which protects America's wetlands for clean
drinking water, clean air to breeze. And if you're able
(15:39):
to go to Safety Impact Award dot com, you can
vote for one of those nonprofit. Cold is going to
donate one dollar for the winning nonprofit for every vote
that gets cast, which obviously will be Ducks Unlimited. So
you're going to want to do that and vote for
Ducks Unlimited. And if you're watching the Super Bowl and
there's a safety which is my wife's favorite play and
(15:59):
foot all, it's everybody's favorite prop bet, if there's a
tapey and you're one of those people that voted for
the winning nonprofit, you get an opportunity to win a
portion of one hundred thousand dollars from Cordova. So it's
an all round win for everybody. It's something that I'm
really passionate about encouraging safe and responsible fire and ownership
and Ducks Unlimited as an organization I've supported for a
(16:21):
long time because of all the great work that they
do throughout North America. And it gives you a reason
to kind of p name and watch the big Game.
And I'll voting in cheer for a prop bet that
you don't actually have to put your cold, hard earned
cash down for. So I think it's something that's awesome.
You can also go to my social media Joe Thomas
seventy three, Twitter, Instagram and you can find the link there.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
Joe, I'm looking out at Green Bay. It is frozen over,
it is minus twenty five Windshiel And obviously youre Wisconsin,
Wisconsin native. I know you like all things outdoors, all
things wetland, especially you know most famously when you were drafted,
you were on a boat out in a lake when
(17:04):
you got drafted. How did you deal with Wisconsin winners?
Speaker 6 (17:10):
Well, I'm in Madison right now. Hopefully you're seeing some
ducks flying over the bay there. But it is never fun.
When you were a kid, you feel like the cold
doesn't bother you. I remember when I was in high school,
I actually made it a pride thing that I was
never going to wear a winter jacket to school one time,
just to see if I could do it. You know,
I remember Brett Farrell when I was a kid, you
always wore shorts into the facility when you go to
(17:34):
into the facility there in Green Bay. And so I
think there's like a little pride level of, you know,
if the cold is not going to affect me. However,
now that I've reached forty, I feel like that pride
is all dried up, and I am not loving this
cold anymore. Because I tried to go outside today and
put some firewood, and it was so cold that I
thought I was going to sweat, but instead snowflakes just
(17:55):
popped out of my pores. So I am already looking
forward to the warm, balmy, eighty degree summer days we
have here in Wisconsin.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
I agree, the summer is amazing. I don't know if
it makes up for the winner. What hasn't been that bad?
Speaker 2 (18:07):
This is? This is, this is a rough day.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
So your wife was excited about the safety in the
Eagles Eagles Rams game, But I guess the question becomes, uh,
you know you have these three of them were terrible
weather games. Terrible weather games, and we had this discussion
on air yesterday. I just wondered your opinion. Are you
a a football purist from the I like the games
(18:32):
outside in the elements, or it's like, hey, let's really
play this thing in a dome, so the best of
the best, the skill truly comes out in the best
athletes in the world in the NFL.
Speaker 6 (18:44):
I grew up in Wisconsin, like you mentioned, in Milwaukee
cheering for the Green Bay Packers, and weather was always
a huge part of the game. It was a huge
part of the home field advantage that the Packers had,
and I always enjoyed watching football outside. You know, when
I was a kid, we'd go out on New Year's
Day when we were off.
Speaker 5 (19:00):
A school and we'd have a snow bowl.
Speaker 6 (19:02):
We'd recreate the ice Bowl. And so for me, football
has always been a part of the elements. I know
that there's plenty of people that don't like it because
sometimes you know, the underdog has a chance to sneak
one out, and there's a little bit more of the
leveling of the playing field when you do play in
those elements.
Speaker 4 (19:18):
But I like that.
Speaker 6 (19:19):
I like that unpredictability. I like that when there is weather,
it gives you an extra reason to sort of tune
in and watch. Obviously, it makes the telecap more exciting
when the snowflakes are flying, but also there's a little
bit more unpredictability because we've seen these teams.
Speaker 5 (19:33):
All season long.
Speaker 6 (19:34):
You kind of know them, but then all of a sudden, no,
the weather's a factor, right, Who's going to be able
to handle the football? Who can be that best mutter
the best cold weather team. And I think the teams
that are the best that are the ones that don't
let it affect them. They don't think about it so much,
but they practice in it all the time. And you
look back to New England Patriots. They were one of
the best mutter teams of all time and they had
(19:55):
a great team, but they just practiced with wet balls,
They practiced in the elements, and they got used to
it and then they were able to block it out
on game day. So I think that's the key. And
if you're one of these teams that either are down
south and you think about it a bunch going into
the game, or you've never practiced in it, and you
make it a big deal. When it is cold or
it is snowy, then it's going to affect you because
your brain is like a bucket and it's like a
(20:16):
five gallon pail. You only got so much space to
fill it up with water. And if you're worrying about
what the snow is doing or all these other different
elements from the weather, like, you're taking away from that
brain space that could be thinking about how I'm gonna
beat my man and win this game.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
Joe the Kansas City Chiefs.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
There is the prevailing thought of most of it is
a fan driven, but you do see other players tweeting
about it, mentioning it.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
There's this thought that it's like the Grand Conspiracy.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
The league wants Pat Mahomes to keep getting shots at
the Super Bowl. As a guy that played as long
as you did and has covered it. What are your
thoughts on this idea that the Chiefs get away with
holding the Chiefs get away with the little other things
that other teams don't get away with.
Speaker 6 (21:06):
Well, Refereeing is always going to be part of every sport,
and actually the NFL has the least amount of officiating
that impacts the game. I mean, you're a basketball guy,
there's a whipple almost every time he come down the court,
and so in football's he's got ten or twelve flags
in a game. It's really not making a huge impact.
Of course, games come down to a few plays here
(21:28):
and there, and so it's easy for fans, especially the
losing fans, to point to, Oh, it is the officials,
they screwed us. But that's just not the case, right.
I think one thing that is true, however, is that
Patrick Mahomes is incredibly savvy and smart, and he utilizes
the roughing the pass or rules that quarterbacks have to
his advantage. And I think that's one of the things
the NFL really needs to take a hard look at
(21:50):
this offseason, because he has.
Speaker 5 (21:52):
Proven, along with Josh Allen and.
Speaker 6 (21:54):
Some of the other quarterbacks over and over again, that
the rules are so minute and so detailed about how
you can hit the quarterback that when three hundred and
thirty pounds humans are running at full speed at a
quarterback that's running a four to six, it's happening so
quickly that the human eye can't fully process and get
(22:14):
the call correctly time in and time out of when
the quarterback slides how you're allowed to hit them. And
so I think because of that, patric has done a
great job of sort of utilizing the rules by sliding late,
acting like he's going to go out of bounds and
then saying in bounds or doing a great job of
eliciting those fifteen yard penalty flags from the officials, Whereas
(22:38):
if you just had somebody that was watching in New
York that was able to see those things in a
quick replay and be able to call down to the
official that's on the field without any wasted time, no
formal challenge flag, none of this, and just be able
to help the officials in real time to be able
to officiate things that are happening too quickly because of
(22:58):
the rules to be able to effectively officiate. And so
I think one of the things the NFL really needs
to do in the off season is take a big
look at the sliding rule from the quarterbacks. And I've
tweeted about this a little bit at Joe Thomas seventy
three this season already that the slide was initially a
way for the quarterback to give up way before he
even got close.
Speaker 5 (23:18):
To anybody, and the rule says, as soon as he.
Speaker 6 (23:19):
Starts to slide, that's where the ball should be down.
But for whatever reason, officials have started placing the ball
like halfway in the quarterback slide as the place where
the quarterback was down, and also giving quarterbacks credit for
sliding at.
Speaker 5 (23:36):
The last second. Like we thought last weekend with.
Speaker 6 (23:38):
Patrick Mahomes, he was running into a crowd of three
defenders and when he's less than half a yard from
these guys who are already about to tackle him, he
just slides feed first and gets a fifteen yard penalty.
So they need to really reevaluate and maybe think about
something like they have in the NBA, where hey, you're
not allowed to fake slide and if you slide late,
it's on you. As a quarterback, you don't have those
protections because the slide is not meant to be weaponized.
(23:59):
The slide is to be a protection for the quarterback.
And that's it.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
I actually I'm gonna I'm gonna push back on two
parts of it if you don't mind.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
Okay, The first.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
Part is, I completely agree with you on the late slide.
The issue with the defense is those defenders they go
like headshots.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
I don't know what would be the knee area or
thigh area, Like if they.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
Were simply in a tackling position, you know where they
get kind of head up, see what you hit? Old
school like, we're all taught to tackle. Wouldn't that change it?
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Right?
Speaker 1 (24:33):
Because if you look at the Texans, yes, I agree
it was a late slide. But the point is that
if you weren't trying to take a guy's head out,
you wouldn't you wouldn't be diving at Pat Mahomes Pat
Mahomes running down the field.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
Does that make? Am I making sense to what I'm saying?
Speaker 1 (24:50):
Like you look at the way in which they're trying
to tackle, they're all just kind of diving at knees
with their heads and like you can't say I was
when to tackle him and then he went and slid.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
If you're going kind.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
Of head first diving at what would be their knees
or their feet?
Speaker 6 (25:08):
Well, I think the challenge for defenders is when you're
running full speed, you're expecting the ball carrier in a
normal situation to lower his shoulder to get low to
try to run through and split the defenders, and so
you're getting your body low, you're running full speed, and
so you're already in that crouch position, and when you
do make that commitment, you're expecting that quarterback or that
(25:28):
ball carrier to lower himself as well. But all of
a sudden, when he throws his feet first, you're already
down in that crouch position, and that's why it makes
it look like they're diving at his legs. But I
think the broader issue is, Hey, if there was no
late slide, we would never have defenders in this situation anyway,
because the quarterback would slide, the players would have plenty
of time to pull off, to stop, to be able
(25:50):
to get away from the quarterback, and then you wouldn't
put defenders in such a bund with is he going
to fly? Is he not going to flyde because how
many times have we seen players think that somebody's going
to slide, or think they're going to go out of bounds,
or think that they've got him in the grasp, I
mean in the pocket. Think about how many times we've
seen that where guys have the quarterback in the grass.
They're expecting the whistle to be blown and the sack
(26:12):
to be had, and then all of a sudden they
let him go and the quarterback runs around. And so
I think it just puts defenders in too much of
a bind and too much of a bad situation that
now you're in the playoffs, everything's on the line, you're
playing faster, and we're putting ourselves. We're setting ourselves up
for situations where a either quarterbacks do get hurt like
we saw with Trevor Lawrence getting hit in the head
(26:33):
earlier in the season, or guys let up and then
quarterbacks are able to take advantage of it and then
the defender looks like a bozo because he stopped, and
then everybody's pissed off of the defender.
Speaker 5 (26:43):
Why would you stop on that play?
Speaker 6 (26:45):
So I think it just makes it too difficult and
confusing and complex, and it really allows the quarterbacks to
use the rule to weaponize in their own favor, which
is not the original ton of the rule.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
Yeah, the only other pushback I would have would be again,
I know you're talking about process. The result is all
of those big name quarterbacks Lamar, Josh Allen, Pat Mahomes.
Obviously Jalen Hurts had a concussion, but he was back
like you go through and they were all playing in
(27:18):
the playoffs, which is the most important thing for the league,
because the league builds around the names of these quarterbacks, right,
and it's like, hey, look, I get it. I understand
the league feels like it's gotten soft and everybody makes
but the fact is that everybody wants to see those
quarterbacks play in January, and they all played in January.
So maybe those rules, which feel like they're not football
(27:40):
are helping us with the endgame.
Speaker 6 (27:42):
No, I totally agree with what you're saying, and I
am all horror having these rules that protect the quarterback because,
like you said, if all of a sudden Josh Allen,
Patrick Mahomes weren't playing this weekend, how many people would
watch Probably half the amount of people who would watch
the game, you know, then they wouldn't have this national,
worldwide interest that it does because those guys are He's
in our game. I think even further reinforces my point.
(28:05):
Right now, we're incentivizing quarterbacks to go to the absolute
last second up to the defender before they slide and
give themselves up, which is putting defenders and themselves in
risky positions and situations where yeah, they might get a
fifteen yarder. I'll reflect back on Trevor Lawrence earlier in
the season. His wasn't as late as Patrick Mahomes. But
because of the reoccurrence of these quarterbacks sliding late and
(28:28):
being deceptive with are they sliding, are they going on
the bounds or not?
Speaker 5 (28:31):
Now you're putting.
Speaker 6 (28:32):
Defenders in a bund where do.
Speaker 5 (28:34):
They make a decision to go hit them or do
they not?
Speaker 6 (28:36):
And I think more times than not, especially late in
the season, they're going to try to hit them because
they don't want to be the dinguses that are social
media memes for just standing there as the quarterback runs
by them. Whereas if we would discourage the late slide
and allow it to be the rule which which it
was originally intended for, which was a way for the
quarterback to be running an open space and to give
(28:57):
himself up before he gets hit, you wouldn't incentivize the
late slide, the fake slide, all those things, and you
would keep quarterbacks much further away from defenders, thus allowing
them to be safe and on the field for all
of us to enjoy the great battles and matchups like
we're going to see this weekend.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
Does the Cleveland Brown in you root for the bills
this weekend.
Speaker 6 (29:19):
Gom Yeah, funny you said that, because I was thinking
the whole playoffs, like what a perfect playoff It was
Detroit and Buffalo in the Super Bowl. You know, two
Rost Belt teams, two teams that have these loyal fan bases,
just like Cleveland, from the Midwest, from the Rost Belt,
that have never won a Super Bowl. An opportunity for
them to play like that was what I was dreaming of,
(29:42):
because I do have a definite piece of my heart
in Buffalo, in Detroit, in those other fan bases that
have suffered similarly like Cleveland, with lots of losing cities
that have gone through some tough times, blue collar, chip
on our shoulder mentality in the fan base. And I
like to see those fans that have been lowered their
(30:05):
whole life but never seen the championship get an opportunity
to feel and taste what it's like to win a championship.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Joe, listen, uh uh, your your your post career is
as interesting to me as your career. But listen, in
the off season, you want to come up and get
out on on on this lake or throw throw reel
in the throw reel in any of these lakes, in Wisconsin.
You let me know, I'll get in the car and
I'll drive to meet you.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
But I truly appreciate joining us.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
It's a good cause and encourage people to go to
all your social media sites as just a way to
get into it. Thanks so much for joining us on
Fox Sports Radio.
Speaker 6 (30:40):
Hey, I appreciate it. Thank you for having me on.
And I'll absolutely take you up on that Green Bay
one of the most underrated fishing destinations in the country.
Muskie Walleye, Small Mall past. But don't tell anybody. We
want the fishing spots to ourselves.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
I just just see it, like literally, I'm looking at
My house is on the bay, so I have my
players come over.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
They fish off my doc.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
But we'll get on a boat and you'll teach You'll
teach me how to reel them in the summer.
Speaker 6 (31:03):
Okay, I'm ready. Thank Doug.
Speaker 4 (31:06):
Fox Sports Radio has the best sports talk lineup in
the nation yet. Catch all of our shows at Fox
sports Radio dot com and within the iHeartRadio app.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
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Speaker 2 (31:35):
Should be do do doo do do do do do
do so.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
I guess before we get to buyer's remorse, I guess
we do have to talk about this, right, which is, uh,
what do we do with some of the discussion over
race and quarterback play? And obviously Ryan Clark is probably
(32:09):
at the center of it, and I'm not trying to
do to him what others have done to me and
take things out of context. But this is a show
where we've never gotten caught up in the unreasonable, the
the fringe stuff, the race baiting stuff, and not to
(32:33):
the point where we push.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
Back directly at it.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
It's like the It's like the Marcus Freeman being the
first black coach to coach the National Championship Game. I
actually think I understood what he said and he sort
of downplayed it and how we shouldn't be judged, you know,
we shouldn't talk about how he's black, but he was
the first black man to coach a team in the
National Championship Game. That's a historical marker. That is a
(32:56):
big thing. Let's not let's not be so obtuse to
history that we don't go like, yeah, that's kind of
a big thing and give.
Speaker 2 (33:02):
Him his due.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
But I just I'll be honest with you, I don't
and maybe this is you can't ever tell how somebody feels.
Any of my thoughts about about Lamar Jackson have never
had anything to do with his race. It's always been
about Hey, in order to win a Super Bowl, you
(33:27):
have to be able to lead your team throwing the football,
specifically from the pocket, and this weekend was the first
playoff game of substance.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
Right.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
I know he'd won two previous playoff games in the
first round last week and then going back with it
last year or the year before, but he hadn't done
it in the fashion that he did it this week,
which was come from behind eighty in this case, I
think eighty eight yards to lead your team to a
touchdown to potentially tie the game, and then Mark Andrews
(33:59):
drop at two point version. I can't discount the turnovers
earlier in the game, but I have to give him
credit for when it mattered. The big question had been
can you come from behind? And to come from behind
you generally have to throw the football, and this time
on the road and in elements, and he did so.
(34:20):
On the other hand, if he wins the MVP and
he's never even gotten to his Super Bowl, we're left
sitting there going, Hey, in his first five or so years,
he had an elite defense, and realistically, this defense in
that game was good enough. They got two straight stops
to start the second half against the Buffalo Bills on
(34:40):
the road, like he had enough. And it wasn't his
fault Mark Andwers turned the ball over on a beautiful pass.
It wasn't his fault that Mark Andrews dropped the ball
in the end zone. I just there's no way in
which I can view him in a quarterback driven league.
(35:02):
Like just last week we killed people killed Justin Herbert,
who does not have Derrick Henry, who does not have
you know, and you know you don't have his eight Flowers,
but he's had and they've drafted talent about if he
doesn't have Mark Andrews, And because of his playoff shortcomings,
we completely wipe out what he's done the regular season.
(35:24):
Same thing for Sam Darnold, we will wipe it out.
We don't do that for Lamar Jackson, buyer, where are you?
Speaker 2 (35:32):
How do you? How do you handle this conversation?
Speaker 3 (35:35):
Yeah, this is interesting because there's there are a lot
of different levels to it. But for some for some reason,
I think that there's this group of football fans that
feel like Lamar Jackson just can't throw the football, and
it's absurd. It tells on yourself, It tells on yourself
that you are someone who doesn't watch football or pay
(35:59):
attention to football. Because his passer rating this past season
was one of the highest that we have seen in
NFL history. And I feel like that the last drive,
Doug that you talk about, like, if that group of
people can't see it, then then there's no helping them.
But it doesn't take away from the fact. And I
think that Mike Sando, who's friend of the show, has
(36:22):
been on the show the graphic that he had in
his athletic article on players who play better in the
postseason as opposed to the regular season and vice versa,
that that is Lamar Jackson. And Mitchell Schwartz, former lineman
from the Chiefs and Browns, gotten in on the conversation
and said, basically, you have two turnovers in that game
(36:45):
against Buffalo that put your team in awful situations. The
fumble was probably the worst of the two, but the
past wasn't much better. But the fumble was just doing
too much. And so that's how I look at it
that way, Like Lamar has sold me on who he
is as a quarterback, you just have to be better
(37:06):
in the playoffs, and that means taking care of the football,
something he didn't do against the Buffalo Bills. He has
to be better in those playoff situations. And I think
he even admitted it in his postgame you know comments
talking about Mark Andrews, is I turned it over twice.
I can't do that.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
Yeah, I thought, Look, I think he's really matured, he's accountable,
he's matured. I do think they threw the ball too much,
but some of that was out of necessity. They were
stacking the box right, and but I thought in the
first half, especially when they just could have been you know,
just feeding Derrick Henry and bringing in Justice Hill, like
I thought, there should have been a greater volume of it,
(37:45):
and also a volume of Lamar Jackson running like you
have two great options run the football on any play.
Speaker 3 (37:52):
I think now you eliminate yourself from having any credibility.
If you're still questioning whether he can throw the ball, period,
well look I think you all.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
I think you always did, okay, because what happens is
when people say he's not an e leite thrower, previously
have said he's not an the lead thrower. Like that's
different than saying a guy can't throw a football like
Tim Tebow couldn't throw football, sure right, like legit for
NFL quarterbacks. And again this is the top one percent
of people who throw a football. He wasn't on that chart.
(38:26):
Now for Lamar Jackson, you're we're holding you up against
Pat Mahomes, Josh Allen, Justin Herbert, Jalen Hurts, Joe Burrow,
Joe Burrow, Jared Goff, et cetera, et cetera. Like you
got to be judged among your peers, and amongst these peers.
He is not the thrower of Joe Burrow. He is
(38:47):
not the thrower of Josh Allen. He is not the
thrower of Pat Mahomes. On the other hand, they're nowhere
near him as an athlete. Pat Mahomes has great est
capability and he's somewhere in between Josh Allen's a great runner.
He's much more John Elway, but like he is. Okay,
so it's all a balance, right.
Speaker 3 (39:08):
Yeah, but I would push back, like his passer rating
again was one nineteen this past year, best in the NFL,
and in fact rates all time in the National Football League.
Maybe not top four, top five, but at one point
you was so even that point I think is no,
he's proven it. He had a better passer rating than
(39:29):
Joe Burrow, and Joe Burrow threw forty three touchdowns and
nine interceptions this year.
Speaker 2 (39:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
So but if I asked you, and I would say
you'd watch more full Raven games than I have. If
you had eighty yards to go and you had to
simply throw a football, would you take Lamar Jackson to
take you?
Speaker 2 (39:49):
But no, no, no, no, I know, I understand that's not.
Speaker 3 (39:52):
The NFL though anymore, that is not the NFL. You
have to be mobile, like there's so few non mobile quarterbacks.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
Well there's a difference scene don Okay, again this is
there's a different scene non mobile. And again, so like
pick any of these other guys, Joe Burrow is not
non mobile. Joe Burrow's not of those guys that I
mentioned he's the least mobile because of injury, but he's
not non mobile. He's not Tom Brady. Okay, and Tom
and he's not Tom Brady, so he moves more. Yes,
(40:21):
I'm just ask you, if you have eighty yards, here's
the here's the only question. If you have eighty yards
first and ten, you're down seven or eight in the playoffs, Okay,
Josh Allen, Pat Mahomes, Joe Burrow, Lamar Jackson, Jalen.
Speaker 3 (40:40):
Hurts Overhurts in a second, I would take him over
Hurt second.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
I would take him over Hurts. But I've never been
the big Hurt Sky, never been a big hurt Sky.
But again, okay, so you take him over Hurts. We
take more, Josh Allen, we taken more. Pat Mahomes, we
take him over. Would you take him over.
Speaker 2 (41:03):
Matt Stafford in a dome? You're faster in a dome.
Speaker 3 (41:13):
I think it's I think it's close. I think that
I mean Stafford Wiley veteran eighty yards. You feel like
he's gonna be able to get it done, but do
it in a different way.
Speaker 1 (41:24):
And he did in the Super Bowl. He did in
the Super Bowl with one wide receiver. Yeah, like, listen again,
I can I agree with you. Look, Lamar Jackson, here's
what Lamar Jackson has done that I don't think we
give him enough credit for. Okay, we do this thing,
and I think Josh Allen has gotten credit for it,
and I think Lamar has gotten some credit for it,
but not enough. Many times we think the guy who
(41:46):
comes into the NFL and what how we view him
in the NFL.
Speaker 2 (41:50):
That's who he is.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
And we were told, and you and I are in
our forties, right, we've been told our entire lives that
you know the hardest saying, I can't really improve accuracy, right,
And we've been told that Lamar Jackson and Josh Allen
have defeated that narrative, right, Like he's become a really
good throw with the football. I don't believe he's in
(42:12):
the solar system yet I understand the numbers. I don't
believe he's in the solar system of Stafford or or Burrow.
And Burrow doesn't have a great arm, but Burrow it's
he usually puts it where it's supposed to be right
and doesn't have a great offensive line or whatever. But
I think he has massively improved and He's even improved
(42:34):
in his accountability, leadership, all these other little things like
he keeps getting better and better and better. It just
didn't play out as such in the playoffs this year.
I still wouldn't take him ahead of Josh Allen. I
wouldn't have take him aead of Pat Mahomes. I wouldn't
take him ahead of Stafford, honestly, because Stafford did that
exact thing we're talking about, the exact thing that that
(42:54):
Lamar Jackson just.
Speaker 2 (42:55):
Did in the playoffs. Sure only he did in the
Super Bowl to win a Super.
Speaker 3 (42:58):
Bowl, I would I would probably take it over josh Allen,
to be honest with you, I think that what Josh
Allen like does on a whole for his team, especially
this year, is now a little bit different. But I'd
probably take Lamar in that situation because.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
Josh Awlln's made so many bonehead mistakes in the past.
Just that.
Speaker 3 (43:16):
But I also think that Lamar is really really good,
And the mobility aspect of it is because you have
to worry about him so much, and not that you
don't have to worry about Josh Allen. But Lamar is
just a different sort of guy when he gets out
into the open field. He's just he's more dynamic and
even on the past to Wallace on the scramble, it's
(43:40):
not that josh Allen can't make that play, because Josh
Allen can make that play, It's just that Lamar makes
it look easier. I'd take Mahomes first. I'd take probably
Burrow second, because I've seen those guys do it in
those money situations.
Speaker 1 (43:55):
Josh Allen did basically throw a perfect game in Kansas City, thirteen.
Speaker 2 (44:00):
Know he did.
Speaker 1 (44:01):
He's yeah, and again he'll get a chance to add
to that lore or to come back to the pack
based upon what he does this weekend. And we are
we are definitely prisoners of the moment. But I'll say this,
when they came out, I watched a ton of Lamar
Jackson College a ton, and I always felt like when
(44:22):
they played the better teams and they made him throw, man,
he struggled, and somebody was he wasn't surrounded by the
greatest roster. But his last bowl game, I think they
play Mississippi State, was bad, bad, And I just you know,
I've seen him at times and he has really really improved,
really improved, and I think that that's a testament to
(44:45):
not just working, but working on the right things, on
being accountable for your own flaws, and he is not
the guy who he was billed to be when he
came into the NFL, and that's the thing that he
and Josh Allen have absolutely flipped in terms of narrative
and things you can and can't approve,
Host
Doug Gottlieb
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