3 & Out - Cowboys-Eagles Open the Season, What's going on in Cincy, Rich Eisen goes back to ESPN - The Herd with Colin Cowherd

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
The volume. What is going on everybody, John Middlecoff three
and our podcasts? How are we doing? Hopefully everyone is

(00:22):
doing well out there in the real world. Here's the drill.
We're gonna talk some sports because the Dallas Cowboys are
playing the Eagles week one, Thursday Night, opening night for
the NFL. The Bengals got some stuff going on. They
had a star pass Rusher's not happy with this contract,
got chefty on the horn and had some comments their

(00:45):
first overall pick, I think he was the seventeenth overall pick,
but their first round pick did not participate this weekend
in rookie Miniicamp, which to my knowledge is pretty unprecedented.
Some media stuff. Rich Eyesen goes to ESPN. I got
a couple thoughts there. Michael Jordan is gonna participate in

(01:05):
NBC's coverage. A little dubious on that one. We're gonna
do a mail bag. I actually recorded the first part
of the podcast, and then before I did the mail bag,
I watched the lottery, which is I'm sure gonna be
a massive story on Tuesday on all the shows. It's
I mean, I gotta give a couple quick thoughts on that,

(01:27):
because give me a break. I mean talk about an
all time rig lottery. Listen, Nico was the fall guy
and I think it's pretty clear and I will dive
into that one as well as the mail bag answering
your football questions at John Middlecoff at John Middlecoff fire
in those dms. You guys know the drill. If you

(01:47):
listen on Collins Feed, make sure you subscribe to three out.
Subscribe to three out Apple, Spotify, wherever you listen. Also YouTube,
make sure you subscribe to our YouTube channel. All of
our contents up there. Preciate everyone that subscribed. But before
we dive in to anything football related to anything Dallas
Cowboys versus the Eagles, I do need to tell you

(02:08):
about my friends, my partners in the official ticketing app
of this part. If you want to go to one
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I think is it Wednesday or Thursday the fourteenth, fifteenth?
I don't know. I probably should look that up. It's
this week we're going to get the schedule. Games starting
to leak out a little left and right. Schrager threw
something out there about Saturday, December twentieth. I know some

(02:29):
of you like to get ahead. Got to be a
little careful now with some of the flexible scheduling, But
for the most part, if you want to take a trip,
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(03:14):
twenty dollars off. Down the game Time app Today, last
minute tickets, lowest price is guaranteed. I'm recording this before
the lottery, so interested to watch how that plays out.
But it kind of hit me today. I was I
was at the gym and I looked up and you know,
the shows are on. Even Coward was talking about it
from first take to every show on FS one they're

(03:36):
leading their show with where is Yannis Gonna Go? It's like, guys,
this is the middle of the playoffs. This is the
middle of the time when we should be talking about
the games. But in basketball, the soap opera nature of
stories like that dwarf anything on the court every single time.

(04:00):
So honestly, when I looked, I wasn't that surprised. Very
on brand. And the thing with the NFL, there is
a soap opera nature. Hell, the Cowboys and the Eagles
have thrown their hat in the ring over the years,
playing a major, major part in that, but nothing ever
trumps the games. The games are what pays the bills

(04:22):
in the league. They are what drives our interest the most.
What did Brian Schottenheimer do on third and eight? What
play did he call? Why did he waste a time out?
What is Sirianni doing? Why is so and so not
in the game on a must have play? Maybe it's
Dallas Goddter, Maybe it's Aj Brown on a goal line

(04:44):
play in a tie game of the in the second
half against the Cowboys. And that's just Week one. I
can't imagine the playoffs talking about anything but the games
at hand. Obviously, coaching moves, and there is soap opera
drama to the NFL. I'm not arguing or disputing that,
but the games are always going to be the most
important thing, and that's really separated the NFL is we

(05:08):
care so much about these individual matchups, like we already
know who is playing every single opponent. We know that,
we got that a long time ago. How we got
that when the season ended. You know the rotation year
to year, You know wherever you finish first, second, third,
fourth place, where your schedule is based. No the forty

(05:29):
nine ers schedule, which is a joke. Forever now we
don't know the dates in which the games are played.
How many Monday night games you get? What is your
Thursday night game? And we saw last year the good
teams get multiple Thursday night games. But forever the NFL
has forever be strong. But I would say recently, over

(05:52):
the last half plus decade, they have really tried to
hammer home divisional games at the end of the season,
and sometimes it's worked out brilliantly. We have gotten Last
year is a good example. The Lions and the Vikings
played the last game of the season, and it wasn't
just for the division it was for the number one seed.
You can't get a better scenario. But you also get

(06:13):
situations where it's like the Rams and the Niners are
playing and there's nothing on the line for either team,
So you never know. And the hard part about the
NFL schedule is beside week one, as you go, we
see so many injuries. I mean, look at last year.
The Eagles played the Packers Friday night in Brazil and
Jordan Love got hurt, so Jordan Love week two and

(06:36):
Week three couldn't play. So and some of these injuries
happen in training camp, I would say less and less
because of the nature of no double days. No one
really plays in the preseason, but once the season starts,
injuries have a major, major impact on who's playing, especially
at quarterback. But I think the Cowboys are a good example. Obviously,

(06:58):
when you win the Super Bowl, you're a lock to
hope that game on Thursday night. It's a cool moment.
And typically, I mean, you know the chiefs of one
of the last couple of years, you know that team
is gonna be good. I would say it would take
a catastrophe for the Philadelphia Eagles not to be in
the playoffs. I honestly have a struggled to see a

(07:21):
scenario where they are not a playoff team. Now, quarterback
injuries can have a dramatic impact, but their overall roster,
even if their quarterback play was was average, would still
be pretty tough to be given how dominant their running
back is, how great their offensive line is, and how
good their defense is gonna be like, they are gonna
be a good team. But when it comes to the Cowboys,

(07:43):
who for three straight seasons, or definitely the last two seasons,
had been coming off twelve win years, so in twenty
twenty three and in twenty twenty four, the Eagles and
the Cowboys had both established we're good teams, we are
playoff twelve thirteen fourteen wins. The Cowboys had been winning
the division two of those three years, and the Eagles

(08:03):
has been no Super Bowl those two games when they played,
which are enormous moments for the league. Obviously, the Cowboys,
I think you would. I don't even think it's an argument,
are the biggest brand, especially if they're good when it
comes to television ratings, and the Eagles are in the
mix if they're good as being one of the most
important brands in the league, and they typically played the

(08:24):
first or second or like the last, the sixteenth or
seventeenth week, right, whether that was the end of December
or early January, and they've played some time in November. Well,
if you're the league office, you go, are we sure
Dalla's gonna be in a good because I was thinking today,
am I gonna go? I picked Dallas to make the
playoffs last year? I was obviously wrong, though. I think

(08:46):
they would have been a little more competitive if Dak
hadn't been injured. But Cooper Rush actually wasn't terrible, but
the defensive injuries regardless. I mean they they drafted twelfth,
so that one was a whiff. But ultimately, like the
league's going Briandenneimer, Jerry's getting a little weird. If you
were betting man or they more likely to win seven
games or eleven or twelve games, and I think the

(09:07):
answer would be seven. So this game is really really
important because if they're both good, it does huge ratings. Well,
week one, you can't really screw it up, so you
might as well utilize the Cowboys week one, And I
think that's why they did it. Because Peter Schrager tweeted
out today that this has happened right in recent years

(09:29):
is the NFL plays Saturday games once the college football
season ends and the bowl games start. Well now with
the playoffs, they did it last year. They play a
couple Saturday games while the first round of the college
football playoffs are going on, and Shreger tweeted out that
the two games are going to be Packers versus the Bears,

(09:52):
which is just an easy, no brainer game regardless if
the Bears don't live up to the hype, it'll be fine.
And the Eagles playing Washington, I think two years ago
before Jaden Daniels and Dan Quinn and Adam Peters showed
up and Josh Harris bought the team that's Eagles Cowboys.
So Washington being good has enabled them to make this

(10:13):
move because they can say whatever they want. I think
this is a good indication of we don't know what
Dallas is gonna be, and even if Dallas is terrible,
they're still not Like. This isn't the Jags and the
Arizona Cardinals on television. They still move the needle and
are a big brand for Fox. But this is the NFL,
not the NBA. Right, If Giannis gets traded to San Antonio.

(10:34):
It's a great story for everyone that talks about basketball
to hammer home for the next couple months. But those
games will not outrate Steph Curry on playing Putt Putt
on ABC. You know. I mean, that's just a reality.
We're in the NFL. The Bills and the Packers and
the Kansay Chiefs, these are in tiny markets and they
do twenty twenty five thirty million people because if you're
a good NFL team, we will watch. And I think

(10:57):
now that Washington's good is just an easy replacement. So
I think the treatment that the Cowboys have got these
last several years, and they earned it because they were
a you know, a playoff twelve plus win team. Washington
is gonna get that treatment now and that's why they
utilize the Cowboys week one. And I do think, you know,
the NFL is praying the Bears are gonna be good,

(11:19):
and I think we will see that with the television
setup come here in a couple of days. They gave
the treatment a little bit to the Jets, and I
think Rogers went on record last year of like he
was kind of told that the Jets and himself owed
the league one because they had put him on the
primetime games then he'd torn his achilles. I think the

(11:40):
league would love for the Bears to be good. I mean,
the market's massive, that the brand's big. Obviously they're teams talented,
but sometimes you just never know where you know. I
think that's what's fascinating about the schedule in general, is
the league makes a couple bets right, and I would
imagine the Bears are going to be one of those.
But the most part, you don't really have to do

(12:01):
it right, and we'll find out, Like if Aaron Rodgers
haven't signed, how they treat the Steelers Now, you probably
treat the Steelers like, always give them primetime games. They're
one of the biggest brands in the league. And at
the end of the day, even if they don't live
up to the hype that everyone that follows the team
wishes they would, they're still gonna win nine or ten games,

(12:21):
would be very competitive, and they never really let you down.
But there are always some franchises that you go in on.
The forty nine Ers were one of those teams, right.
They got the max amount of slots, and they had
earned it because they had been a Super Bowl team,
and then all of a sudden, McCaffrey's injured, team's not
as good and they're playing in primetime games losing. So

(12:43):
it's just it's not an easy job. And I think
a lot of people hype it up. It's like, oh,
this is no, this is easy. I don't know. I
think the schedule thing a lot of moving parts and
just a lot of unknowns. But I think the Eagles, Cowboys,
that's a fantastic start, and then Chargers, Chiefs and Brazil
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Speaker 1 (14:59):
One of the big stories over the last twenty four
hours has been the Cincinnati Bengals and I gotta throw
a red flag on one situation, and I gotta say
I'm gonna support him in another. And I think two
things that have happened over the last couple of days
is Trey Hendrickson basically went on record with Adam Schefter
today discussing his displeasure that no one has talked to

(15:23):
him since the draft. There have been no communications on
a new contract. That sounds kind of crazy. When you
read the headline, you realize the draft was like two
and a half weeks ago. It's like we're acting like
this was four months ago. I don't think it's that crazy.
We're focused on the draft and we're focused on getting
the guys in. I don't think that's the craziest thing.
And we'll dive into that in a second. But the

(15:44):
bigger story was the Bengals first round pick Shamar Stewart,
the really physically gifted player from Texas, A and m
athletic freak didn't really produce at the level of his athleticism,
but was drafted seventeenth overall, and pretty intriguing draft pick
is it's either kind of a boom or bus. Feels

(16:04):
like they're swinging for the fences. Don't hate it, don't
love it. Understand it. At pick seventeen, don't hate it.
He did not practice this week at rookie Miniicamp, which
is kind of crazy, given that everyone practices if they're healthy.
He just stood there and watched. So like, given that

(16:25):
this is a borderline unprecedented situation, I had to do
some digging. There was an article today in the Cincinnati
Inquirer that one of the issues because I thought one
of the reasons all these guys practice not because most
of them have their rookie deal signed before rookie Minniicamp.
They do not. They typically get an injury waiver, so

(16:46):
if something catastrophic were to happen that they would be covered.
And the reality is the type of practice that you
have now at these rookie mini camps is a joke.
I mean, OTA's in general is nowhere near or what
it used to be, and the majority of this stuff
is walk through mental stuff. The chances of people getting
hurt now are very very slim. Still, football still definitely

(17:09):
a risk, and at any moment someone could fall on
you things that are out of your control. So it's
like there is some understanding of a risk that you
are taking now. The issue that the inquiry reported was
everything is slotted now, right. I just read that the
Seattle Seahawks have signed the North Dakota State Guard, who

(17:32):
is the eighteenth overall pick. So you are seeing rookie
sign left and right. What are you really arguing over?
You can argue over dates in which bonuses are paid, right,
I give you a signing bonus, How we pro rate that,
how it's paid, the percentage in which it's paid, and
injury guarantees has been an issue somewhat that teams have

(17:56):
butted heads on. Well, Cincinnati, I guess, had offered Stewart
a lower percentage than Dallas. Turner got in the same
slot last year from the Vikings, So he's like, at
most we should just be on par with that. There

(18:16):
is a precedent set. So while I will get into
defending Cincinnati a little bit, when it comes to Trey,
this one feels like, listen, part of the negotiation should
be a little back and forth. There shouldn't really be
any with this. This should be pretty black and white,
like what are we doing. It's one thing to low
ball player that's a free agent because he's high balling

(18:39):
you and you end up meeting in the middle. As
high ball even a term, you know what I mean.
He comes in low, I come in high, and we
eventually know we're gonna meet in the middle. Right, you
list your house overpriced for a million dollars. I come
in at eight fifty. I know we're gonna end up
meeting at nine twenty eight, and be cool with it.
I know you'll take it. You're agent's already told my agent.

(19:01):
They're like, listen, if you can just get close to
the nine to fifty number, I said, listen, I'll come
up a little before nine. But we're gonna meet in
the middle. That's not what this is. These things are
slotted in Cincinnati. Like I think, sometimes when you get
a negative, there's like a narrative or a talking point

(19:22):
about you as a human being, as a company, as
a franchise. It's hard to shake that, right. And I
would say when people think about Cincinnati. Their first reaction
is somewhat negative. It's like a kind of a low
level franchise, so when this story comes out, it's easy
for everyone to pile on them. Where if you're a

(19:43):
high level franchise, Like if I had told you that
Howie Rosman or Less Sneed was in a standoff about
a situation like this, those guys would get the benefit
of the doubt. You'd be like, what's up with that
fucking agent. And here's the reality of agents. The agent
of the player does not give a shit about the team.

(20:04):
That is not his job. I think sometimes they overhype,
like I love my guys, I love my relationship. No,
you're in the business of getting your two five, whatever
your points are on the deal to make money so
that your seventeen year old drives some Mercedes as well. Like,
this is a business. Let's not get it twisted. You
can say it's a human business, and it is. You're
representing players, but you wouldn't be doing this. You're not

(20:27):
doing this for charity here. You're doing it because there's
a lot of money on the line, and ideally you're
buying it early to get that second contract and really
go che ching, So like the objective of the agent
and the objective of the team are never going to
be the same. The team only cares about doing what's
best short and long term for the franchise and trying

(20:48):
to win. The agent just does not give a shit.
The player he represents might but the agent does not.
But in a situation like this, like I'm sorry, bad
look for the bank, also just bizarre, like of course
this happens to the Bengals. Now. The Trey Hendricksson thing
is a little uh. I would say, there's a little

(21:09):
more gray area. He's thirty years old, will be thirty one,
just had a career two years where he had thirty
five sacks. Would you be in the business of giving
one hundred plus million dollars to a guy that broke
out in his career at twenty nine and thirty years old,
Because I don't know. I might struggle with that, Like

(21:30):
it'd be one thing. It's like, hey man, you could
get me for two years and sixty million dollars. I
don't think he signing that contract. He's looking at Max Crosby,
he's looking at Miles Garrett like he wants a long term,
huge deal and while they just signed their two wide receivers,
those guys are younger players. Trey Hendrickson was not a
guy they drafted. He was a guy they got because

(21:52):
it did not work out for him in his first stop,
and part of that was injuries, part of that was
just figuring out how to become a pass rusher. And
he's coming to his own and he's been an excellent
dominant player. But I do understand if I ran the organization,
and I think this is how it would be if
the Ravens ran it, if the Eagles ran it, if
the Chiefs ran it. This isn't just a no brainer here, Trey,

(22:13):
here's your blank check. And I think for him, and
I saw JJ Watt tweeting like, of course they told him,
have another big year and then we'll take care of you. Yeah,
this guy's this business. You know. This is one of
those things if it's a little more complicated than just
give him a bunch of money. Like ultimately t Higgins
is getting a lot of money no matter what. The

(22:34):
Bengals just had to decide, like are we going to
invest a lot of money in two players at the
same position. This is one of those where even good
teams would be like, yeah, we're gonna hesitate on giving
an older player that much money. Now, maybe he goes
on to have three more years no injuries, kicks ass,
and you look back and go, got it a no brainer?

(22:55):
What if, like you're a year and a half in,
You're like, God, he's already banged up again because he
was early on in his career. So I think it's
easy for him to come out and kind of paint
the Bengals is the bad guy and no one is
going to defend them because of what's going on with
their rookie. But I do think this situation is a
little more complicated, and they're going, you're not a free agent.
It's not like we're franchising you. You're on a contract

(23:16):
for fifteen million dollars, like we've already now. Listen, their
owner's daughter had made some comments a while back that
not the way I would do business. But I also
think Trey coming out like this, I don't think that's
helping his cause either. So I think this is a
more complicated situation, and it's easy for every swinging dick

(23:38):
on television that played in the league to go like
he's getting screwed. He is getting fucking railroaded. And that's
gonna be the majority of shows you're gonna turn it
on and listen. Is he underpaid if they make him
play at fifteen million, one thousand percent? But like, what's
he looking for? What deal would he be willing to sign?

(23:58):
Because if he goes Max Crosby or Miles Garrett, I
gotta say, no, dog, not for me. And the problem
is if you're the Bengals, like what's his market? Does
he have a lot of teams? I know a lot
of Lions fans hit me up, like when are we
gonna do something big? Like what are the Lions gonna
trade a first round pick and give them a hundred
million dollars? No chance? So, because that would be crazy business.

(24:20):
The Rams, maybe they get back to their roots. They
got two first round picks. You never know, But I
don't think that one is as as like black and white,
right and wrong, you know, judging each side as I
feel like it's made out to be on the interweb.
A couple other quick things. Rich Eisen is going back

(24:41):
to ESPN, which I don't spend too much time on
media news, but that's interesting because Rich Eisen hosts the
NFL Draft, host Sunday Football for the NFL Network, and
host the combine, kind of an important cog in the
NFL new network. A month plus ago, Peter Schrager, I

(25:04):
would say, one of the bigger NFL network personalities also left.
There have been rumors for well over a year now
that the NFL network is in major trouble and the
NFL would gladly get rid of it. A year ago,
they moved Good Morning Football, maybe even a little less
from New York to LA Everyone's like, why'd you do that?

(25:24):
It's like, why are we paying this enormous studio fee
when we have a free one that we're already paying
for in Los Angeles. They want to get rid of this.
It is not making any money. They want out of
this business. It is not worth it for them. And
I think Peter Schrager and Rich Eiesen bouncing tells you
everything you need to know. My guess is and he's

(25:48):
a friend of mine, and I think it's a no brainer. Listen,
mel is coming down the home stretch. He's had a
hell of a run. And I'm not some mel hater.
I know he became a I don't even want to
say controversial figure. But you know him going nuts about
Shador Sanders like that's Mel's job, Like he's been doing
this for a long time. Like I would not surprise
me at all if Daniel Jeremiah is next. And I

(26:11):
think the NFL network, if you tell me that it
does not exist in a year, because even if the
ESPN quote unquote buys it, they're just gonna run everything
through ESPN. People do not watch NFL Network. And the
other thing that I saw today is that NBC is
going to hire Michael Jordan. They didn't really I haven't

(26:34):
quite figured out exactly what he's gonna do. It's not
like he's gonna be calling games, maybe shows up and
makes some special appearances. Call me old school, but I'm kind.

Speaker 3 (26:43):
Of a sucker for mysterious celebrities, really famous people, you know,
part of social media, which I think it's directly impacted
the death of legacy media, Like we just know too
much about these people and what they think about every issue.

Speaker 1 (27:03):
Like I don't need to know that one thing I
feel healthier about in my life. I spend way less
time on Twitter. It's like, why do I need to
know what every newspaper writer thinks about every situation in
this world, and newsflash, I don't, and I'm healthier for
reading less of it. And I think part of what

(27:23):
makes Michael Jordan so special is we don't know that
much about him, and I think we have seen and listen.
I worked at a radio station where the guy that
ran it got a hard on for famous people. He
would do anything to get a big name on the
radio station. And sometimes if they were a good radio interview,

(27:46):
it was really good. But just because the guy was famous,
if it was terrible radio, which if it was really terrible,
it would also be good. But there was a lot
of like this is unlistenable. And I think historically you
see with television they have the same mindset. Let's get
the most famous guy possible involved in our sport. We've
seen it in football over the years. Jerry Rice, I

(28:07):
don't remember this, but Joe Montana was on TV. Obviously
he did not go well. Emmitt Smith. We've seen it
over and over. It's why Greg Olsen like talent's talent.
Pat McAfee was a punter. You know how many people
involved in pro sports like be like I could do that.
It's like, no, you couldn't. No one would watch you
after a while. You're not entertaining. And I think we've

(28:29):
seen it with Magic Johnson, who just not that great
on television. And I do wonder if Michael Jordan now listen,
if Michael would talk like he's had a couple of
cocktails and letting it fly, he'd be good. I just
don't know if we're getting that guy. Listen. Tom Brady
to a man, every single human that's ever played with
him swears by the guy. It's like he's he could

(28:50):
balance this dude's dude super famous. People loved him. It's
like he's just one of the guys. I'd say. They
said the same thing about Peyton Manning, and Peyton just
refused to go all in. He kept it, you know,
light with Eli. But Tom then started doing the television
stuff in Colin games, and you're like, where's the Tom
that we've heard about? And he struggled because he's like

(29:11):
he's got the PRT. It's just hard, which I will
defend him. I understand it's hard to be the guy
that like a borderline F word could come out of
your mouth, you know, every sentence. So there's this balance.
But then you become too corporate and you're like, chose
some personality and I think, Michael, I don't know. I mean,
I'm not saying it's going to fail. I idolized as

(29:33):
a kid, Michael Jordan. If you were my age, I
don't care if you lived in Seattle, if you lived
in Florida, if you lived in Davis, California. You had
some sort of bulls apparel. I had a pair of
shorts and I had the jersey as well as a
poster signed by Michael Jordan. That's in my closet right now.
It's one of my prize possessions and I don't really
care that much about that type of stuff. I also

(29:55):
have a Jack Nicholas signed to John Jack Nicholas Best
of Life, Like basically wrote me this thing because my
dad had fished with this guy who then was buddies
with Jack and fished with him. My mom put in
front of the sun, and over the course of like
a decade when I was a kid, it disappears. So
now it's just a picture of Jack. You can't even
see the writing. Can't say the same about Michael. Still

(30:16):
looks good. Best wishes, Michael Jordan, but I don't know.
I would tend to lean. I'm not trying to be pessimistic.
I'm not trying to be a negative Nancy. Then it's
gonna be a lot of hype and not much substance
behind it. Okay, let's end on this. Welcome to Chasing Challenges,
brought to you by Microsoft. In the NFL, just like
in the business world, overcoming obstacles is key to success.

(30:38):
Microsoft empowers business decision makers with AI solutions, simplified cloud
and data management, and trustworthy reasonable technology to turn challenges
into opportunities. In this segment, we explore some of the
biggest challenges being faced in the NFL and how they
can be overcome. Whatever challenge you're facing, Microsoft empowers you
with the expertise to say bring it on. This week,

(31:02):
we're discussing the challenge faced by the New Orleans Saints.
Their quarterback, which obviously was a weird situation, but he'd
been there started the last couple of years, retires. They
have a couple guys on the roster before the draft
named Jake Hayter, who they draft in the mid rounds,
who was essentially beat out the last couple last year.

(31:23):
By Spencer Ratler, who they drafted I think in the
third round, and then they draft Tyler Shuck here in
the second round, and I think Kellen Moore said or
kind of leaked out that we're just going to have
an open competition. To me, I think the moves pretty
simple because I think if you're the Saints, you either
need to do two things. One, you just need to suck.

(31:45):
So you were in position to have the number one
overall pick in draft a quarterback and change your franchise
and get out of this quarterback purgatory situation that just
forced you to give over seventy million dollars guaranteed a
couple of years ago to Derek Carr. Or even if
you're not as good, Tyler Shuck should get every rep.
Tyler Shuck should play every game as long as he's

(32:07):
physically able, and just find out do we have anything here?
Can this guy? Like does he show enough to go, Hey,
we're drafting fourth, We're not gonna take a quarterback. We're
gonna believe in this guy for the next couple of years.
We're gonna give this guy an opportunity. We're going to
invest in this player. But those are your only two
options now, So to me, maybe it's just politically correct

(32:30):
and you've got to do it for the morale of
your locker room. But the only thing internally they should
be thinking about is Tyler Shuck's gonna be our starting
quarterback and we're gonna learn one way or another. Is
this guy good enough? Moving forward? Can this guy be
at least our long term starting quarterback over the course
of his rookie contract if we build up a good

(32:51):
team around him. Can we compete with this guy? Because
if we can't, the only thing that matters then is
losing to put us in a position kind of like
the Titans to get a cam and then pivot moving forward. Now,
not ideal. They would have drafted quarterbacks in the last
three years, in the fifth, in the third, and in
the second round. But listen, if you don't have one,

(33:12):
no one will fault you for drafting another one. So
if I'm the Saints, this is gonna be a weird year.
You don't have much experience in your quarterback room. You
have a first year head coach who's a younger guy. Uh,
you got Brandon Staley coaching defense, who knows what's going
on there. But there should be one goal and one
goal only figure out the quarterback position. Is the kid

(33:34):
good enough? Not even a kid? He's like thirty years old,
you know what I mean? Can we play with this
guy going forward? We saw a you know, Andy Dalton
draft in the second round, was a starting quarterback for
a while. The Raiders drafted Derek Carr in the second round.
Was a starting quarterback for nine years. Jimmy Garoppolo, listen,
if you did a good enough job building up around
the team, could be a solid starting quarterback. Can he

(33:55):
be a player like that? Because if he can't, then
the goal should be to lose and be in positioned
to draft one. That's it for this week's Chasing Challenges.
Remember Microsoft's AI solutions empower you to take bold steps
and make informed decisions, sparking new ideas to help drive
your business forward. With Microsoft as your trusted partner, you

(34:15):
can navigate your journey with confidence, finding innovative solutions and
reaching new possibilities. Visit Microsoft dot com Slash Challengers to
learn more.

Speaker 4 (34:24):
Blending Vice's signature dynamic storytelling with the high octane world
of sports, Vice Sports brings an exciting and diverse range
of programming that goes beyond the game, from action pack
live events to gripping behind the scenes documentaries to hard
hitting investigative pieces and in depth profiles of athletes, coaches, teams.
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(34:47):
makes sports truly unforgettable. Catch live events and other exclusive
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com to find your cable channel.

Speaker 1 (35:00):
So let's do a little mail bag at John middlecoff
Is the Instagram at John middlecoff Is the Instagram. Just
actually watched the NBA lottery. It's one of the shadiest
things I've ever seen. I mean, it really is that. Listen,
I'm a Laker hater, but I've never argued they are
the biggest NBA brand, and honestly, it's not that close

(35:22):
that for them to get Luca in the middle of
the night, we'll go down forever and always as the craziest,
most insane thing we've ever seen. And then a couple
months later, the Dallas Mavericks that had eighteen ping pong
balls out of a thousand get the number one pick,
who's widely considered one of the best prospects. You know,
top two or three over the course post Lebron. I

(35:45):
mean it's listen, that's like taking your accountant out to
dinner after he just saves you a bunch of money.
Tonight was not about the Mavericks tonight and the last
was about the Lakers and a league that you know
in the in the height of Curry Lebron in like
twenty fifteen twenty sixteen, over the course of the next

(36:08):
seven eight years, half the NBA's audience disappeared. Yet they
got a contract with the television partners that more than
doubled it. It didn't even make sense to me, And listen,
I understand the power of life rights, but it's like
double what well, what if we could promise you that
the Lakers are Lebron's forty years old. We know that

(36:32):
who knows, maybe a year left two, who knows it's
he could retire, Probably not, but uh, definitely a year
at a high level that there's no guarantee we'll take
care of them. We will have them good and boom,
Luca's on the Lakers and the Mavericks get the number
one overall. Pick you know, people. For a long time,

(36:53):
I think conspiracy theories were viewed as like crazy people,
and it listen, media people love take your ten and
foil hat, Like we have a little bit of a
runway now that a lot of things that were called
crazy and conspiracy theorists have been proven to be facts
and you can't tell me that tonight and going back

(37:13):
to the trade with Nico and the MAVs is not
one of the shadiest sports moments and stories we've ever seen,
And tonight felt like some validation of like, yeah, it
all kind of makes sense. And if you don't think
the league was involved, like I'm sorry. We don't have
much in common. I mean, really we don't. And I

(37:36):
don't blame. If I'm a Laker fan, I don't even care.
I got myself Luca, need to get them eating a
couple salads here and there, But like we won, and
if I'm a mass fan, it's like, yeah, sucks, I'd
probably rather have Luca. But it's like we got taken
care of so it all worked out, and Adam Silver
had his David Stern moment. No matter what, we will
take care of the brand and keep our most important

(37:56):
television product relevant. The NBA and I've talked about this
over is not the NFL. It's teams in smaller markets
are never gonna do the numbers of the Lakers, of
the Knicks, of what Steph Curry has turned the Warriors into.
They cannot You're honis on the Bucks. It's not the
same as the Chiefs and Patrick mahomes Chiefs and Patrick
Mahomes thirty million people. I mean, that's what happens the

(38:20):
Bucks play. I don't know the Pacers. People just aren't
watching that. So I just think that Adam Silver had
his David Stern moment, and it's one of the craziest,
most obvious corrupt things we've ever seen in my entire life.
You called me middlecoff. You're fucking insane. You're just saying
that there is no way you can convince me that

(38:42):
the league was not involved with this trade. I honestly
think a little bit less that Nico's some crazy person.
Now like it. It kind of all makes sense. It
all makes sense. And if you wanted to argue that
the NFL should involve itself in a lottery, that was
riveting television. And now this storyline is everyone's gonna be

(39:03):
talking about it and the league doesn't care. What are
you gonna do, Sulim. I'm sure Danny Age wants to.
I mean he's been tanking for like three years. What
just to happen? Jose, You man, don't go work for
the Utah Jazz and expect good things to happen to
you if the league is gonna be corupt because you're
gonna get screwed. Man, What a night in the NBA
draft or lottery? Question for the mail bag? Which teams

(39:26):
do you think have increased their ceiling and floor the
most after the draft and free agency? I do think
the team that stands out to me, and especially if
you factor in the coach, I think there are two,
and I think it's the Patriots and the Bears. I mean,
just we know how important coaching is in the NFL
and Eva Flus. I mean, let's face it was kind

(39:48):
of an embarrassment as a head coach. I mean, he's
a good defensive coach. Girod Mail was just completely over
his head. And those guys got Mike Vrabel, who's proven
to take like random Tennessee teams to win playoff games.
I'm pretty sure were the Titans of the number one
seed a couple of years ago Tannehill melt it down.
But yeah, the Titans of the number one overall seed,
think about that, and the Bengals nice little upset on

(40:11):
their way to the Super Bowl. But in Ben Johnston's
I would say the most highly touted offensive coordinator probably
since Kyle You know, people forget like Sean McVay was
a controversial hire. People did not view Sean McVay when
he was hired. Myself included, I'm guilty like the way
he became. Kevin O'Connell when he was hired wasn't viewed

(40:33):
like he's viewed now. Brian day Ball a lot of
hype behind Brian day Ball, So you could say maybe
since Brian day Ball was hired with the Bills coming
from Josh Allen, But I mean Ben Johnson's one of
the most hyped offensive coordinators I would just say of
recent memory. So I think they've added a bunch offensive linemen.
They draft the tight end from Michigan. They already had

(40:57):
good players on the team, so I think the Bears
and the Bears roster is better than the Patriots. But
I think when you look at the Patriots, you know,
could they win eight nine games and all of a
sudden go from drafting back to back years really high
to competing for a wild card spot in December. I
don't think it's outrageous. Derek Carr, according to Chad GPT,

(41:21):
he missed only two games when he played for the Raiders.
The concussion and injuries were all with the Saints. During
his nine year tenure with the Raiders in Vegas and
Oakland fourteen to twenty two, he missed two games due
to injury. Notably, in twenty sixteen, he suffered a fractured leg.
I remember that we talked about that yesterday, causing him
to miss the regular season finale. In the playoff game

(41:43):
in seventeen, he sustained a back fracture, but missed just
one game. Overall, Car was remarkably durable. I think his
career with the Raiders a little underrated. He took a
lot of blame for the dysfunction going on, and I'm
not saying he didn't have bad games, but I would
say he was the least of their worries most of

(42:06):
the time. I can't speak to every game he played
in the sayings that obviously got a little weird, but
A big fan of the pod question for the back.
I'm going on my first bachelor party for a few
weeks in Fort Lauderdale in a few weeks, not for
a few weeks. For younger people these days, a co

(42:28):
ed bachelor party is popular, and this one is co ed.
I'm going with my girlfriend, but just wanted some tips
for not over indulging on the three day Bender and
other courtesies you've seen over the years for bachelor parties
in general, picking up the tab, handling people that may
be downers and may not want to go with the flow,

(42:48):
go vikings. I gotta be completely honest. Maybe I truly
sound like a forty year old completely out of touch,
though I just got married recently. When you say it
co ed bachelor party, do you mean a bachelor and
a bachelorette party together? Like, do you mean that the
bachelor party and the bachelorette party are going on at

(43:10):
the same time, which would be less crazy to me,
which I would imagine has happened before in a similar venue,
maybe for cost purposes. Or do you just mean that
your buddy's bachelor party is co ed, meaning you can
bring your girlfriends or they just come. I've never heard
of that. I've never heard of that. So I don't

(43:31):
want to speak out a turn here because if it's
a bachelor party not a bachsorette party and they just
it's co ed, that seems weird to me. Like I
think you can go to a bachelor party is because
they don't trust you guys. I got a red flag
of that situation. That's something I can't relate to. I

(43:52):
mean not that you, I just that seems weird to me.
Part of a bachelor party, whether you're going barha up
in club, in golfing, boating, whatever you're doing, it's like
you with the boys, you with you know, your good friend,
you're in the wedding, you're close friends with the guy,
your college roommates, people from high school, whatever. Never heard

(44:12):
of a co ed operation. I would say, I think
the hard part with courtesies it depends on ages. Like
if you're all I don't know how old you are.
Let's just you know, once you get to us, you know,
in your mid to late thirties, some people are going
to be doing better than others. So when you go

(44:33):
again non co ed, let's say you got twelve fifteen,
ten guys at a nice steakhouse. Maybe people can kind
of get crazy, start ordering seafood towers and a bunch
of food, and then the bill comes and there might
be one dude who's i mean, making a ton of cash,
and a couple other guys that you know don't make
any money. So that's where it can get kind of weird.

(44:55):
I think you got it that there's no really right
or wrong way to kind of handle that. I think
sometimes just communicate like what are we cool with spending?
I only got a couple hundred bucks to spend that dinner.
If this thing gets outrageous, I gotta be out. Some
people are always going to be up and down in
terms of like being into stuff and being not into stuff.
I would say anytime that you know, if you have

(45:16):
the means can get you know, it's pretty easy to
get the group around the beers. I do again, like
does that include their girlfriends? Now? That's that's where I'm
kind of taking back. I feel very old if this
is if this is in, because there's one thing. If
you got ten dudes, it's like, hey, we get around
of beers, can we get some cocktails? Can we get

(45:38):
some shots? And it's like, does that ten now turn
into twenty because they got their ladies there. I also
would imagine there are gonna be some single guys. There
could be a little weird. I'm fascinated. I need to
follow up on that. The co ed thing. Never heard
of that. Hearing about Derek carr retirement reminded me of
when Colin used to have the opinion that he'd be

(45:58):
a Hall of Famer one day seeing his car mass
an zero to one playoff record. I think it's safe
to say that was a horrible take. What has been
your worst takes on a player? I mean I thought
Derek was like, clearly better than the group he was
in of like Jared Goff, Dak Prescott, Kirk Cousins not

(46:21):
that long ago, five six years ago, and then over
the course of his career. I don't think anyone would
put him above I don't know. I don't remember Colin
saying he'd be a Hall of Famer, but I was.
I would have been in agreement of speaking pretty highly of
Derek after a couple of years. I mean, I wasn't
that big on Lamar Jackson coming out of college. I

(46:41):
thought Jalen Hurst was a running back. I mean I
thought he couldn't throw. I'm an Oklahoma guy, the guy
that hired me at Fresdel State. I've said this a
million times. Works there. I've watched their program very closely,
with Baker Mayfield to Kyler to Jalen might be a
little that older there. I went to the Texas Oak
Homa game this year. I watched them lose by one hundred.

(47:02):
Like I follow Oklahoma's program, and obviously it was easy
people like Jalen. I just didn't think he could throw
it well enough. I thought that pick was crazy. I
thought that pick by Howie in the second round was insane.
I think it's fair to say it's gonna go down.
I mean it's when you factor in how important that

(47:24):
position is. I mean I could define Howie Roseman's career
so that one be up there. Yeah, that'd be really high. Uh.
Is there an unexpected team next season that you can
see picking in the top five? For example, we can
all see where the Saints, the Giants, the Browns, etc.
Would be picking in the top five. I think the

(47:44):
team that I'm gonna stay on is Miami. I think
Miami is just a team to keep an eye on.
I just can't get over this co ed bachelor parties.
I think Kevin O'Connell's a great coach. I've watched Adrian
Peterson carry the Vikings offense and a rotating door of
failed quarterbacks all my life. Cousins was decent, but I've
always been looking for a franchise quarterback drafted and with

(48:05):
the team for a decade. Seeing O'Connell's offensive success with
a handful of quarterbacks, I'm hoping JJ is our guy.
I know you want to see a playoff win with O'Connell,
but is his true test going to be developing JJ
and setting him up for success? If JJ fails, you
think people will blame O'Connell. Would like to hear your thoughts.

(48:26):
Love the pod. My wife is from Davis. I'm from Chico.
We met at cal Pauly and we lived in Slow
for ten years. We just moved to Denver, and my
commute requires your podcast. Go Mustang's Baby. I don't even
know why I say that. I mean their teams are terrible,
but cool. I enjoy my fellow cal Polly brethren. Awesome

(48:48):
to meet your wife there, that's cool, I would say.
I think sometimes who's gonna fall on? We just got
to see how this plays out. Like, I totally understand
why they drafted him. Their team is going to be
competitive when you're the head coach. If things get weird,
it always kind of falls on you. I do think
Kevin O'Connell established himself with Cousins and Sam Darnold. Even

(49:11):
if this next couple of years gets weird, I think
JJ will get blamed. Now it's easy to blame, like
Trey Lance. It turns out Trey Lance wasn't good. But
the reason Kyle kind of could go like, well, not
totally because Purdy fell into his lap. So if JJ fails,
which I don't think he will, if I was a
betting man, is he going to be a star. I

(49:31):
don't know if i'd go that way far, but I
mean more than likely. I feel pretty confident that they'll
get like some version of Alex Smith, right, That's what
I would bet on. Now, obviously you'd want more, and
maybe it turns out to more. I'd be stunned if
he's like Zack Wilson right or Trey Lance. But listen,

(49:52):
it's football. Not every guy is gonna succeed. Some of
these guys in this class are gonna fail. Right, there
was Caleb Jade and Drake Penix Knicks JJ. Well, we
all think Jaden's good. Everyone assumes Drake's good, and Willie
Cologne kind of pushed back against that Caleb. I mean,
people are still very bullish on him Bo Nicks. Everyone's

(50:13):
high on I'm rooting for Michael Penix, but that organization,
even if four of them succeed, two of them are
gonna fail. So yeah, I think the quarterback would get
blamed over. Kevin just hurt someone, right, you saying Milroe
last season and compared to Lamar in their final season

(50:35):
of college. Jalen could be the next Lamar, But to
say his final season is comparable is pretty disrespectful to Lamar.
Just look at the stats. Rushing yards, passing yards, passing
touchdowns not even close. So let's look at the stats.
They both played thirteen games. Passing yards, Lamar threw from

(50:55):
eight hundred more completion percentage. Milroe, who's considered the thing
with Lamar is sneaky, a little inaccurate in college, was
under sixty percent passing touchdowns twenty seven to sixteen picks,
same thing, eleven and ten rushing yards. Lamar was sixteen
rushing touchdowns, Jalen had twenty. Yeah, I mean, listen, I

(51:18):
do think the way Jalen Milroe season was talked about,
his stats do look better than the way we discussed
the season. I'm guilty of. I was like, yeah, Jalen
looked terrible this year, and maybe I'm just basing it
off of like a couple interactions. Beside the first half
of Georgia. He was elite first half of Georgia. I mean,
if he would have played like that the majority, he

(51:39):
would have won the Heisman and they would have been
in the playoffs. But then you watch other games, like
what is going on here? New offense was kind of weird.
I mean, when you think what I mean, think about
Debor with Pennix, it's just a lot different than than Jalen. Right,
Penix is a pocket quarterback. Jalen is much more of

(52:00):
a run around Lamar type player. My question is regard
to the quarterback position and what makes them an all
time great. Bradchise four rings and Akemans three, but they
are not considered a top ten quarterback, but people will
consider Dan Marino a top ten quarterback. How much emphasis
should be put on Super Bowl? I would say, Dan

(52:22):
Terry's before my time. I was born eighty four, never
watched him play. Dan. I came into my own in
the mid nineties, he was old. I would say this
about Dan Marino is working in the league and working
with a lot of players that played in the eighties
in the nineties, like Todd Bowles or Lewis Riddick, or
these guys that played defense that were drafted in the

(52:43):
in the eighties that said, when you played Dan Marino,
his ball would come by your head like you know,
a sniper rifle. You'd be like, what is that? The
way his peers discussed him tells you everything you need
to know. I think Dan marine he knows respect from
his peers is as high as it gets. I would say,

(53:04):
as someone that rooted against the Cowboys as a kid,
I thought Troy Aigman was pretty good. Now I think
Troy Aikman and Terry Bradshaw are discussed of like, well,
Terry Bradshaw played with the Steele Curtain, which not talking
about the offense, talking about the defense. So one of
the great defenses in the history of the sport. I
mean a defense that was literally nicknamed and won four

(53:27):
Super Bowls. Now, he had good receivers. He had a
good Franco Harris, Stalworth, Lynn Swan, some legendary throws. I
think people consider him a really good player. But I
think if you were drafting, you know the guys that
you discussed in the top ten, I think Marino is
getting chosen over both those two guys. And I think

(53:48):
Troy Aikman or Terry Bradshaw would tell you put Dan
Marino in his prime on the teams we played in
he would have done what we did as well. Like
I don't think they would push back against that, right,
but think about the top ten quarterbacks? Who who? Like,
who are you kicking out? Brady Peyton, Farv Rogers, Elway,

(54:09):
Marino Young. Uh, you know, it's it's hard. It's hard
for me to talk about guys I didn't watch right,
So it's the seventies. I don't feel as comfortable, you know.
I know people like Joe Namath is a name we
throw out a lot. Name with is like a Ruthian figure,
though the difference is like Ruth hit However, many seven

(54:29):
hundred and fifteen home runs. Name with I think through
the same number of touchdowns is picks. I've always heard
from older people that you know either watched or you
know were coming into their own that name is a
little overrated. Stallback is highly you know, highly respected guy.
Uh Kenny Kenny the Snake, Who am I missing? You know,

(54:53):
guys like Drew Brees. Then you got to look at
the crew. Now you know mahomes Is, I'd say already
a top ten quarter back. Josh Allen and Lamar are
gonna go down his legends. You gonna be a great
Like what if Lamar Jackson and Josh Allen both never
win Super Bowls? I think we'd all agree like they
are great players. How do you feel about how ironic

(55:26):
it is that during the Manning cast last year, Belichick
scoffed when the camera panned Taylor Swift. Now he has
the girlfriend in the spotlight, the TV cameras will be
looking for. Yeah, good goal. I just think that this
Belichick Jordan's story is kind of getting exhausting now, like

(55:46):
it's funny for a while. Now it's like, give me
a break, Like what are we talking about? It does
come up a lot. I mean I was in this
golf tournament and we talked a lot about it. I
do understand if you were his kids, right, like if
I was Belichick's son, seeing like his One of Belichick's
kids wives comment on an Instagram account like, Dad, I

(56:10):
don't give a shit if you leave me one penny.
I don't care if you warn Buffett, give it all charity,
give it all to whatever fun, cancer research, help out
the homeless, save you know, dog cannels, whatever you got
to do with your money, but don't give it to her,

(56:30):
like this is insane. We have seen a lot of
old rich men in your position, which I would imagine,
if they were in their prime, would regret what you're
about to do. That to me has turned the conversation
of like what is she really after?

Speaker 2 (56:45):
Now?

Speaker 1 (56:46):
I don't recall this is about the Bengals rookies sitting.
Is this more emblematic of the Bengals as an organization
or the players themselves? Based on the article that I
read that the Bengals had low balled them based on
last year's contract, I think it's a little less crazy.

(57:09):
Though the Bengals can't be the first organization to have
a little bit of an impasse and it never happens.
I will defend the kids on this, whether it's sitting
out rookie Mini Caamp, which is crazy when you read
that headline, whether it's none of these guys running the forty,
this is not the player's idea. None of this is
the player at twenty twenty one years old. This is

(57:31):
not your idea. I promise you. I feel very confident
on that this is all the agent telling them not
to do it. This is an agent run decision making.
I don't think any of these guys not running the
forty are doing it because they don't want to run
the forty. I think it's all their representation telling them.
Going back to Nico transferring out of Tennessee, I think

(57:53):
he did that because of his father. So you have
all these people that have their hand in your cookie jar,
that are determining your decisions, which as a young man
at nineteen twenty twenty one years old, like most people
aren't General Patton making their own decisions here. You're very
impressionable human beings when you're young. So it's like you

(58:15):
get this guy that's a fifty year old agent giving
you advice, You're gonna listen to him. Some of this
nil stuff with your dad or your uncle. You're just
gonna listen to him whether they're right or wrong. I
thought Cam Newton summed it up a while back, Well,
it's like you gotta be very careful. You take advice
from be fucking careful. I think a lot of these
guys are getting advice that, like, bro, you get an

(58:36):
insurance policy, we're not tackling here. Does get you off
on the wrong foot. And I understand it's just business,
but are you doing Is this your decision or is
this you know, your agent that lives in Newport Beach.
After watching Willie Cologne's interview, I checked out some of
the Eight Stealers highlights and that defense was insane. You
got to see Ryan Clark absolutely destroy Wes Welker. It's

(59:00):
one of the biggest hits I've ever seen. I'm shocked
that he actually got up. They called a flag on
the play, but just knowing that you had to go
over the middle against that defense must have been terrifying.
With guys like James Harrison and Troy Paulamalo. Do you
think modern NFL teams could even hang with that roster?
And if so, which team today could actually compete against

(59:23):
that kind of roster? Well, if you think about like
in the two thousands, in the ninety and I would
even say up through like fourteen fifteen CT kind of
came in and then the league changed the rules, because
even up until like when I got out of the
NFL and started working in radio, the forty nine Ers
in Seattle would leave a player at least once every

(59:44):
other game or once a month send him to the hospital.
So you had these safeties that if you came across
the middle there was no flag, they were going to
rock you into oblivion. There was no such thing as
a defenseless player. If you were on the field, you
were just a football player. And I just think that

(01:00:07):
it's not even possible to compare because the Steelers, just
like the Ravens the Bengals, built these teams that would
destroy you. The Seattle with Cam Chancellor and Earl Thomas,
the forty nine Ers with Dante Hittner and Goldzen, I mean,
and Bowman and Willison, these fucking people would get rocked.

(01:00:30):
You're not really able to play like that. I mentioned
this the other day on the mailbag that I get
asked a lot in Arizona about Scataboo, and they're like,
how's skataboo? Gonna play like he played. I'm like, well,
because he's not running over you know, Ray Lewis is
not sitting there in the hole. Levon Kirkland and Kevin

(01:00:51):
Green and Ken Norton Junior, like, these guys don't play
in the league. The linebackers like Fred Warner is a
very violent, powerful linebacker. He's not exactly mister take on
offensive lineman. Meet Mike Alstott and Lorenzo Neil and the
whole type of player. Like. So, the style of the
sport is skinnier, faster guys. It's a space and speed game.

(01:01:14):
So those guys, if they played by their rules. One,
if you allowed big hitting in the league, a lot
of safeties would destroy people in the game would be
a lot more violent because at their core, a lot
of safeties like if you got if you let big
hits like Hufunga, Hufungo wants to r CJ. Gardner Johnson

(01:01:36):
like these these guys want to rock your they just
not really allowed to. So I it just depends, like
the rules. If you allowed those teams to play by
those rules, they would have an advantage because they're comfortable
doing that. You're just not allowed to play like that anymore.
So it's hard to do like an apples to apples comparison.
It really it's like a different sport. A mail back question.

(01:01:58):
I've heard you and many of your contemporaries wonder who
of my contemporaries are prop up Herbert For what it's worth.
I was high on him, but after six years in
the league textually five, but I hear what you're saying.
Two playoff appearances and two horrible showings, including one historic collapse.
At what point does somebody's talent and draft pedigree become

(01:02:21):
a little overrated. I feel like most people right now
would take Herbert overhears to start a franchise based on talent,
But look at Hert's production in the playoffs. How could
you realistically take Herbert? I think sometimes it's hard. We
just use the Marino Aikman Bradshaw example, Google Marinos teams

(01:02:43):
like they just weren't as good. I mean, Trey Aikman
played on some of the best teams in league history.
Steve Young when he took over for Joe Montana. They
had backups that would have started in every team in
the NFL, including himself. So like the league, you know,
some of these teams team. It's not fair fight, This
isn't not everything's equal here, And I think the Eagles

(01:03:06):
are a good example of like, he plays on a
pretty unreal team, so he use this example. He's been
in the league five years. For four of those years
he had Anthony Lynn and Brandon Staley as his head coach.
This year he had a real head coach and still
didn't have that much talent on his best receivers, Lad McConkie,

(01:03:27):
and he threw twenty three touchdowns and I think he
only threw like three or four interceptions and they won
eleven games aful in the playoffs. If you want to
argue that Jalen's a bright lights, bigger, big time player
more than Herbert, I can't argue with you, and the
facts are that's true right now. But I've seen one
year one of Herbert with a real coach and he

(01:03:50):
had a lot of success. Bad playoff game, but a
ton of success. Jalen Hurts got drafted into a well
run organization. I think we all consider Howie, if he's
not the best GM, one of the best gms in
the league they have had since Jalen has been there.
One of the best rosters, and for two of his
three years, of the two Super Bowl years, he had

(01:04:13):
Shane Steichen who immediately became a head coach, and then
this year Kellen Moore, who immediately became a head coach.
Now are those guys good head coaches? Got no clue?
They're good offensive coordinators. So, like I think sometimes we
talk about this and it's sports. It's fun argument, but
it's not basketball, Right, Like, if I get Lebron James

(01:04:34):
or Steph Curry in his prime, it's not gonna be
that hard to put random guys around and just be
really competitive, right, and more often not, if I get
him one All Star, we're gonna be cooking with gas.
Look at Jokic. Jokic has never played with an NBA
All Star ever in his career. How many Pro Bowlers
did Jalen play with this year? How many Pro Bowlers
did skill guys? Say Quon best running back in the league,

(01:04:58):
AJ Brown won, the best wide receivers in the league,
I mean, DeVante's got to be, I mean top three,
number two wide receiver in the league. Goddard's really good
tight end, elite offensive line, probably the best tackle combination.
Dickerson and Jurgens Becton just got money as a free agent,

(01:05:19):
best no line coach. And again I've come around on Jalen.
I respect the shit out of them, but like it's
it's hard to just compare the situation. Now give let's
give him two more years Herbert with with and see
how it looks with Jim RBA a real organization, because
now the Chargers feel like they're a real organization. Do
you think Burrow gets enough respect? Alan and Lamar are

(01:05:43):
combined zero to three against Mahomes in the AFC Championships
and Burrow is one and one. Burrow is better wide receivers,
but Alan and Jackson have better overall rosters, coaches in
front offices. Still, I think if you give Mahomes true serum,
he'd say Burrow scared. There is a more in an
AFC Championship game than the other two. Yet Alan and

(01:06:05):
Jackson get mentioned more as Mahomes' rivals in the AFC
by the media. Curious what your take is on the pot?
I know for a fact the Chiefs respect level for
Josh Allen could not be any higher. They view Josh
Allen as an absolute mother. You know what to go
up against and while they didn't play this version of Lamar,

(01:06:28):
who definitely you know, last year the Lamar game in
the AFC Championship game was embarrassing that there is no
way about it. Score ten points with an elite defense,
you hold them to seventeen points, you have to win
that game. The turnovers this year kind of suck, but
he played really well in the second half, Like that

(01:06:48):
version of Lamar can beat anybody. And if Andrews holds
on to the balls, they would have a chance against
the Chiefs in the next round. But those guys, like
I think all three go together, you know, I think,
and I'm with you. Burrow gets dinged because of the
place in which he plays a little weird. I mean,

(01:07:09):
he just he plays in just a chaotic environment. And
the Bengals are very very lucky to have them, because
if they just had like an average quarterback, with the
roster in which they had and the coaching staff they had,
like you gave them like a Dak Prescott, a Kirk Cousins,
I don't think they'd win sniff seven six wins. They'd
be terrible. Jamar Chase to be screaming, get me the

(01:07:32):
hell out of here. I think all three. You know,
Mahomes his resumes, I mean borderline unprecedented to start a career.
The other three guys are just they're Alzheimer's And if
Lamar can just not calm down a little bit in
the playoffs, I mean, listen, I'm biased. I had five

(01:07:56):
k on them to beat the Chiefs, and I fucking
have known Andy and Veach for a long time. I
bet against him and I can't unsee that. I can't.
I also took the Bills against the Chiefs in that
AFC championship this year hard for me. Doesn't see that one,
So I hear you. So Burrow's the only guy that

(01:08:17):
beat him, and Burrow usually could have won a Super Bowl.
A lifelong Bucks fan, I consider the Monte Kiffin defense
top five all time, if not top three Barber Brooks, Lynch,
Rice Sap. Their stats are crazy? Am I just biased? Also?
Why is the full back not a thing anymore? Mike

(01:08:38):
Alstott is my all time favorite player and is an
all time and in a time of the tush push
seems like it would work. Allstott was guaranteed half a
yard player. I would say in my I can't speak
to the really the eighties and the nineties, or excuse me,
the seventies and the eighties. I think if you look

(01:08:59):
at the tote of the league like a historian, if
I got Steve Sable, God rest his soul, he'd tell
you you'd be hard pressed to not have the Steelers
really really high of the seventies. I think the eighty
five Bears, it's like, could this guy make the twenty
seven Yankees? Right? That's the way that that lineup, Like

(01:09:20):
Ruth and Gerrig is the way that people talk about defense.
The eighty five Bears, to me is the bar. Then.
I think there are a lot of teams just in
the mix right modern day that I've seen. I would
say the Ravens of two thousand whatever you want to
consider that best defense of Tampa. I mean they picked

(01:09:40):
off rich Gainnon five times in Super Bowl. Now, granted
Grew knew the plays. The Steelers defenses with Coward to
Tomlin were pretty pretty unreal. I think the Seattle defense
with Pete Carroll for four straight years was the number
one scoring defense. You know, if Richard Sherman was sitting
right here, you'd throw their hat. They were good. I

(01:10:01):
saw them live a bunch. I mean they had inside
pass rushers, outside pass rushers, linebacking corps was unreal. All
the dbs were good. Pete Carroll one of the great
defensive minds in league history. I think some of those
patriot deal I mean, there's they're just in the short
list of just they're a great defense. I think most

(01:10:23):
people would just say the best defense of all time,
eighty five Bears. And then from there, I think we argue,
and I think Tampa's in the argument, whether they're second,
whether they're fourth, whether they're fifth, but they're they're in
the argument. But I think it's pretty clearly it's like
who's the best NBA player of all time? Michael Jordan?
You want to argue two through eight, Let's argue, but

(01:10:44):
most people ain't budget, you know, remove Twitter for fucking
Lebron James starts with Michael Jordan. Just like the Bears,
eighty five Bears, they don't have an argument for the
next three or four spots. Appreciate everyone listening. Talk to
you guys soon. The volume

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