June 15, 2025 • 39 mins
Jason dives into game 4 of the NBA Finals between the Oklahoma City Thunder and the Indiana Pacers. Jason discusses Thunder stars Shai Gilgeous-Alexander & Chet Holmgren's impact in the 4th quarter & how OKC's defense is impossible to penetrate when they are locked in. Jason also responds to mailbag questions regarding Pascal Siakim being the Pacers go-to guy, if Kevin Durant is a good fit for the Dallas Mavericks, and his thoughts on the 1v1 matchup against former NBA players Michael Beasley & Lance Stephenson.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
The volume.
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(02:00):
All right, well, come to hoop tonight here at the
volume heavy Saturday.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Everybody.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Hope all of you are having a good start to
your weekend. Well, we've slept on it. I wanted to
spend some time getting into some more details from some
of the numbers and some of the stuff I've been
digging into in the NBA Finals I want to kind
of zoom out after the first four games and talk
about some of the big picture dynamics that are taking place.
After that, I want to talk a little bit about
the future of the series, and then we have a
handful of mail bag questions, a couple geared around this
(02:24):
series and then a few geared around some other stuff
around the rest of the league. I also want to
talk a little bit about the refs and make sure
that we separate, you know, some of the discussion around
the rules of engagement and some of the realities as
to like whether or not Indiana got screwed. There's been
a lot of clips going around this morning with people
complaining about some of the physicality from Oklahoma City throughout
(02:45):
the game. I think the rules of engagement have been
pretty clear throughout this entire postseason, and Indiana is just
failing the exact same test that everyone else has failed.
And so I want to give okay See some credit
and make sure that we separate, you know, some big
picture discuss about the state of the NBA as it
pertains to officiating from whether or not this series has
been fair, because I do believe it has been fair.
(03:08):
So we'll be digging into some of those dynamics as well.
You guys have the joke before we get started. Subscribe
to Hoops Tonight YouTube channels. You don't miss any more
of our videos. Follow me on Twitter and underscore JCNLT
so you guys don't miss show announcement Soti'll forget.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
About o podcast feed where you get your podcast.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
On our Hoops Tonight. It's also super helpful if you
leave a rating and a review on that front. Jackson's
doing great work on our social media feeds Twitter, Instagram, Facebook,
and TikTok. Make sure you guys follow us there and
the last but not least, if you guys want to
get mail back questions in once we get out of
the finals, they'll be in the comments underneath the YouTube videos.
But for until the NBA Finals all over are over,
I've been doing them through our chats in our postgame shows.
(03:42):
So whenever we do a postgame show like on Monday,
you can just come to the show and drop your
questions in the chat, or if I tweet out a
question asking for mail back questions like I did last night.
All right, let's talk some basketball. So major checkpoints through
four games of the NBA Finals. I talk a lot
of out the idea of like different units, right, and
whether or not you can shake a unit, meaning like
(04:05):
can your defense rattle the foundation of their offense or
vice versa, And there have been some dynamics in this series,
I think for both teams in terms of defenses rattling
the foundations of offenses.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
Both of these teams.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
Are scoring at a rate that is far less efficient
than they did during the regular season. But the question
is which defense is doing more damage to the other side,
and I think it's Oklahoma City's defense easily. The Pacers
had a one eighteen offensive rating in the first round
series against the Milwaukee Bucks. They had a one to
seventeen offensive rating in the second round against the Cleveland Cavaliers,
(04:44):
a one eighteen offensive rating in the Conference finals against
the New York Knicks, in just a one oh nine
point eight offensive rating versus the Oklahoma City Thunder. I
rewatched the fourth quarter this morning, just trying to familiarize
myself with the way with which Oklahoma City came back
into that game, and a big part of it was
the physicality, which I want to talk about in a
(05:05):
little bit. When we talked about the officiating I'm going
to I was very critical of the big picture NBA
officiating issue with like foul rifting and how it kind
of messed with the end of a good game last night,
But I want to get into the specific dynamic with
the physicality and how it's been the rules of engagement
for everybody, and how Oklahoma City is just taking advantage
of it. I thought that was a big part of
(05:27):
it in the fourth quarter, and then obviously the second
piece of it. We talked a little bit about this
last night. Chet Holmgren was all over the rewatch for
me last night in the fourth quarter, obviously seeing the
offensive rebounds again, just you know, doing something pretty simple,
just crashing. Like we just was relentless getting to the
front of the rim and just caught pacers in switches
(05:49):
or in help situations. There was a play where nemhard
was matched up with him, but Nemhrd was kind of
digging in and helping elsewhere, and like that's the thing,
Like if you're going to dig in and help and
offer a towards another offensive player, that's attention. You're not
offering towards your specific matchup, which can offer a little
window of distraction, a window of space for you to
(06:11):
run in behind and try to make something happen, especially
if you're an athlete, and Chet you know, probably is
the best vertical like natural vertical length and athleticism player
on the floor, you know, so like he can actually
high point the ball in those situations and do a
good amount of damage. But the big thing was on defense.
You know, I've been thinking a lot about this defense.
(06:32):
We were talking about it last night on playback.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
It's the best.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
Defense I've personally ever watched. I think it's what I'll
remember most about this team. I'll remember them playing nikoley
Jokic into three straight bad games. The types of truly
embarrassing performances they've forced all these other guys into.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
Last night in the.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
Fourth quarter, Tyrese Halliburton getting stripped at half court, shooting
an air ball on a step back three, getting blocked
on a different step back three, like just these This
defense has taken some really good players and made them
look feeble relative to what their typical production is. And
that's really what is the defining characteristic of this Thunder team.
(07:13):
But you know, I talk a lot about when we're
talking about like the natural team build, like the best
way to build a team. I used to always go
through that like kind of progression where it's like, I
want a skill guard, I want an athletic guard. I
want a slender, perimeter oriented forward. I want a bigger, stronger,
more versatile big forward at the four.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
Spot, and then I want a big.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
And one of the things that I always talk about
with the big is defensive versatility. That has to be
a big that can defend in varying different kinds of
drop coverages, but also that can defend in switches. And
the reason why is each matchup is going to call
for different types of use from the center position. So
for instance, like let's say you're playing a team that
(07:55):
has like a straight up non shooter on the floor
that you're not particularly worried about behind the three point line.
Imagine like you're playing the Knicks and it's Josh Hart
for example, right, Like having a guy like that is
capable of being rangy around the rim as like a
center fielder helper at the rim is super valuable. Chet
had a huge help side rotation in an off ball
(08:17):
situation in the fourth quarter against Andrew Nemhard at the
basket where you know he got over there. He's a
touch late, but he got over there and he went vertical.
It was a good physical play. I liked the non
call in the moment. It's an example of him being
in a rangey, off ball kind of roaming spot where
he can do some damage as a helper.
Speaker 3 (08:38):
Right.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Then in different pick and roll coverages. Right, there are
certain examples of times when you need a big that
can get up to the level. So, for instance, an
elite pull up shooter like is Steph Curry got to
show at the level. An elite driver like Chet would
be a great weapon against the Shay Gilders Alexander because
of his ability to show up at the level and
to keep the ball in front. The big subplots of
(09:01):
this series is the damage that Shay has done to
Miles Turner and ball screens because when he comes up
to the level he can't keep Shay in front. And
then when you have athletes that are downhill threats but
that are not elite mid range shot makers, then you
can run a deeper drop coverage, and that deeper drop
coverage gives you the flexibility to be able to sag
(09:21):
back into the paint and chase over the top of
screens without conceding any sort of shot that is particularly
efficient or deadly to your defense. And then lastly, if
guys get wiped out by screens, which can happen, especially
in super physical playoff games, you need to have a
big that can switch out onto the perimeter and get
stops the way that Chet Holmgren did against Aaron E.
(09:44):
Smith excuse me, Andrew Nemhard and Tyrese Haliburton multiple times
down the stretch of that game, and that has been
a consistent theme in the Oklahoma City wins in this series.
Speaker 3 (09:53):
Looking back at Game two, Chet.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Holmgren's screaming off the screen, specifically in switching switches like
switching is the ultimate like it's the answer to every
action that any team wants to run, because as long
as you communicate through it, you can shut down the
advantages that come out of that action because you're just
talking to each other instead of fighting through screens. Right,
(10:17):
But the downside with switching is it puts a lot
of pressure on guys defending out of position, right, a
big having to defend a small, a small having to
defend a big, even on the glass for both bigs
and smalls, a quick guy crashing around a big on
the perimeter, or a big guy pinning a little guy
right underneath the basket. There's a lot of those dynamics
that can be solved if you have super versatile players,
(10:40):
guards that play bigger than they are, like a guys
like Alex Caruso, guys like Lou Dord. I think Jalen
Williams plays bigger than even his size would lead you
to believe. And then you have to have big guys
that can play smaller and like I think, a consistent
trend in this entire postseason run has been cheed. Holmgren's
ability to switch out onto the perimeter and at the
bare released forced you to take a contested off the
(11:03):
dribble jump shot. He's not getting beat off the dribble
like there was a play or Halliburton missed a step
back three at the top of the key last night
in the fourth quarter and Haliburton hit him with the moves.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
And jet buckled and almost fell.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
But it doesn't matter because he was overplaying the drive,
which is what you need from him. And when you've
got super long arms, you can actually be a bigger
factor in your recovery even when you're out of position
both physically and mentally. The arms obviously cause a problem,
but it gets in the offensive player's head. They changed
their release a little bit because they think they need
(11:39):
to shoot it higher, They think they need to shoot
it quicker, and like I just you know, when I
think about this Oklahoma City defense, the most obvious thing
to grasp two is the depth of perimeter defenders, and
obviously that's a huge part of what they do. Lou
Georg's job on Tyre's Haliburton the fourth quarter last night amazing.
(12:00):
Caruso in various matchups and various contexts throughout the series
has been amazing. The perimeter defense is big, shake yods
Alexander last night, we talked about the damage that he
did off the ball defensively in the second half of
that game. That's all great, but none of it works.
Like look at Houston, where it's like Shane Gun ends
(12:20):
up being this target that you can go after. If
you don't have a big man that can tie it
all together with the ability to run every single defensive
coverage efficiently and successfully, then you're going to have issues.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
Regardless of what.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
Type of perimeter defense you have, And I just wanted
to give some love to Chet Holmgren for the job
that he did last night. Which team has the most
reliable half court action? We talked about this last night.
I won't get too much further into it, but this
is the second thing I want to look at, zooming
out from a two to two series. We saw that
bear out last night. Shay's ISOs were super efficient down
(12:54):
the stretch and the Pacers had no idea what to do.
So before we get into some of the rest of
my kind of big picture checkpoints, I want to actually
skip ahead to one of our mailbag questions. It was
brought up in the playback tonight that it feels like
Indy doesn't have that guy down the stretch, sort of
lacks aggression, some sort of hierarchy. Who's getting shots in
crunch time? Who would you empower to be that guy
if you're Rick or is it just not the Pacers
(13:17):
team's way. And this was in reference to Dom, one
of our big Pacers fans who's been coming on playback.
And again for those of you guys who haven't had
a chance to hop over there, it's playback dot TV
slash Hoops tonight, we're going live after games and we
take callers and we just have a fun time talking
about hoops and it'd be a fun thing for you
guys to check out if you haven't had a chance
to hop over there yet. But anyway, Don was just
(13:39):
pointing out, like, man, it was just a reminder last
night that we just don't.
Speaker 3 (13:41):
Have that guy now.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
I would argue that in the future that's something that
the Pacers will have to address, and I think there's
a couple of specific directions they can go there. Like
it's looking to me like Nie Smith is the weakest
point in that starting lineup. At least within this series.
Nie Smith has been brutal been able to guard either
of Shae Kildes, Alexander or Jadab at any point in
(14:05):
the series. He was the target down the stretch. Last night,
he was the culprit for a lot of the foul
calls that were killing the Pacers down the stretch. You
want a guy like Ben Matherin to be able to
slot into that spot and be able to defend and
do all the things that Nie Smith does while bringing
some more of that off the dribble get to his
spots type of pop he's younger, he's a few years away.
(14:27):
That's a more realistic internal option. I don't think the
Pacers can afford to let Ben walk or do anything
that involves him potentially leaving the team, because he is
the one guy that has the upside on the roster
to become that type of shot maker. Now in the
short term, it's got to be Pascal Siakam. When I
rewatched the fourth quarter, there was one play where they
(14:49):
actually went to Siakam to try to initiate offense. It
was an iso, kind of like an attack of ball
pressure off the top of the key. He beat his
man with a move going towards the left, and when
he got into the lane, he kind of got out
of whack and a little out of control, which is
what happens against good ball pressure. And he tried to
(15:09):
spin over his left shoulder to throw a kickout pass
to an open shooter on the right wing, and Alex
Caruso had left that guy and threw an aggressive double
team and he came in flying with both arms up
and he got a deflection and forced a turnover on
Pascal Siakam. Was an ugly play, but the bigger takeaway
there is that was the only play in the fourth
(15:30):
quarter where they looked to Siakam to initiate offense. Now
where I get frustrated by that is like would it
have mattered. Probably not. Oklahoma City is the better team
in my opinion. I think that will continue to bear
out over the course of the next two or three
games of the series. But you still and he does
have a chance to win the series. Their chance is
(15:51):
in these situations where Oklahoma City really tightens the screws
that we know Indiana's defense can do damaged to Oklahoma City.
I think that's something they did a lot of damaged
to Oklahoma City's offense last night. But when Oklahoma City
really tightens the screws the way they do, they have
to find a way for reliable offense. And like, here's
the thing, Tyres is not going to be able to
shake free when Oklahoma City really locks in, Andrew and
(16:12):
Mhart's not going to be able to do much better
than a pretty tough step back mid ranger when everything
gets pretty When everything gets tight for Oklahoma City at
the end of the game, Pascal Siakam is the one
guy who has a true physical advantage to where if
you run action for him to get him the ball
on the block Against a smaller defender, He's going to
be able to get to that right shoulder fade away,
and it's a shot that has a physical reliability to it,
(16:37):
unlike some of these small guards and some of their
attempts to get shots off against these elite perimeter defenders.
So to me, in this series, if they end up
in that situation again, they have to make a more
intentional effort to just run like think of it like this,
run it out of action if you want to, but
just have Tyrese Halliburton run like you know, a pick
(16:57):
and pop with Miles Turner at the top of the
key where Miles pops to the left corner and run
basically a cross screen for run a cross screen for
Siakam off of the block towards that same block that
Miles Turner's on that side. Have Miles Turner throw the
post entry that way. You have Miles Turner's man further
away from the basket. You have smaller players and help.
(17:18):
Now Siakam's got the ball on the block. You can
run the same thing on either block, but basically get
Siakam an opportunity to get a deeper post catch. The
idea of running the cross screen is if you run
the cross screen, it gets Siakam's defender into trail position,
which allows you a better chance at a post up.
If they switch it, just have the cross screen or
(17:39):
be one of the smalls like involving Shay Gilders Alexander right,
if Shaye is the guy that's in that cross screen.
If they switch it and Shae tries to front the post,
we saw a couple examples of them try to force
that pass over the top and Shay ended up getting
the deflection. All you have to do is do a
better job of ceiling and then swing the ball back
towards the middle and then Siakam con seal and create
(18:02):
a good angle there for you to throw that pass in.
But there was no intentional effort to get the ball
to Siakam against mismatches, and that is if you have
to come up with a reliable half court action, something
that's going to guaranteed gets you a decent look and
a big spot. In this series, I think they've got
to lean on Siakam the post a little bit more
(18:24):
than they've.
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Speaker 2 (19:00):
The other major takeaway that I have as I zoom
out from a two to two series is that Oklahoma
City has proven to be less dependent on jump shooting.
They're averaging eight more points in the paint per game
last night, a fifty to thirty six.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
Advantage, and points in the paint.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
Second chance points have been a big swing in big
spots in this series. Last night, the Thunder had twenty
three second chance points, including eight just in the fourth quarter.
Speaker 3 (19:26):
Huge difference in that game.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
That all comes down to those two things, their ability
to get dribble penetration and their overall athleticism advantage.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
We've seen Tyres Andrew Emhart.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
These guys when they get head up with Oklahoma City's guards,
they are unable to beat that first guy off the dribble.
We've seen TJ McConnell be able to do it. He's
out on the floor in that big spot. Late we've
seen Ben Matherin be able to come off of ball
screens and get to pull up jump shots, or to
be able to attack a guy's chest and get into
the lane. He wasn't on the floor until Nie Smith
(19:59):
fouled out. But in terms of the starting lineup, Tyreese
isn't gonna get dribble penetration, you know, against one against
a really locked in Oklahoma City defense. Very often neither
is Nemhar, neither's Nie Smith. Like that lineup struggles, whereas
on the Oklahoma City side, like J Dub and Shay
at the very least, can probe and get into the
(20:20):
paint basically whenever they want, which causes all sorts of issues.
Even just Shay and the attention that gets thrown his
way on ISOs is part of the reason why we
saw as many offensive rebounds as we did. We talked
about that earlier, with Chet beating them Harden like a nail.
Help situation. But that has been a significant trend in
this series. To me is like the physical advantages for
Oklahoma City has manifested in more reliable scoring that is
(20:42):
less dependent on jump shot result. Last night, they generated
eleven catch and shoot jump shots total in won that game.
Indiana generated substantially more catch and shoot shots and shot
a little better on them, and it just it just
didn't matter because of the fact that Oklahoma City consistently
generates stuff right at the rim. We've seen examples of
teams that have been able to flip that script. I mean,
(21:03):
the most significant ones that I can think of are
the Boston Celtics in twenty twenty four. You know, Golden
State always generated more points in the paint than people
realize that. Steph Curry is a guy that has had
success despite having a bit of variance in his game,
but more than more.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
Than the vast majority of the time.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
When we get back in NBA history, it's reliable stuff
close to the basket.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
That ends up winning championships.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
It's Jokichen twenty twenty three, it's Jannis in twenty twenty one,
it's Lebron and ad in twenty twenty Right like even
Kawhi Leonard brings a lot of that, like short range
shot making with physicality that like Shay gild As Alexander does.
Pascal Siakam obviously was such a big part of that
twenty nineteen playoff runt. Like having that reliable stuff at
(21:48):
the basket that's less dependent on jump shot resultant variants
is going to go a long way towards helping you
win in the later rounds of the NBA playoffs. All right,
so I have I want to talk about refs for
a minute, and then we have two non finals questions
and then we'll.
Speaker 3 (22:04):
Get out of here for the day.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
There's this narrative going around that I saw this morning,
and this is you know, this is where I get
separated from the ref discussion. There was a narrative going
around this morning that the Pacers basically got screwed. And
the big clip that's going around is that last little
half court turnover they had where Turner's trying to do
(22:28):
a dribble pitch with Halliburton out around half court and
Dort is like just holding him and grabbing him and
pushing him as he's trying to get to the ball,
and it ends up leading to a turnover. So I
want to set that aside for a second and say,
what I was complaining about last night has to do
is the with the aesthetics of the NBA. I think
(22:52):
it looks ridiculous to let Shay push off and not
go by the letter of the law and be like,
this is just physical basketball. But then every little tiny
bit of contact that involves him with his jump shot,
we're going to send him to the line for right,
(23:15):
including that grift around the foul line and then the
step through where Nie Smith got him on the forearm. Again,
by the book, all of those are fouls, and so
I don't like the missing like the unbalanced appropriation of
that or the application that the unbalanced application of the
rule book where we're allowing Shay to be super physical
(23:40):
against the defender to get separation, but then when the
defender actually stays attached to Shay, they're not allowed to
touch Shay. I think that that makes for a bad
television product. And in general, we had a highly entertaining
finals game last night that ended with a parade to
the foul line.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
So I just don't think it's good TV.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
I personally would like to see the league take steps
to basically never ever reward a non basketball play with
free throws ever, ever. Ever, Like, even if you're in
the penalty, if the guy's got his hand on his
arm and you do that janky ass pull up great
nice job side out of bounds, you're not getting free
throws for taking a non basketball shot. That is a
(24:20):
big picture take that I have surrounding the idea of
what I would like for officiating to look like in
the NBA, so we can have less of Luca grifting,
less of Brunson grifting, less of Shay Gil just Alexander grifting.
That's what I want, because it's bad for television. I'd
rather have them fix that. I do not think Guineana
got screwed last night, and the reason why is the
(24:42):
rules of engagement have been pretty clear and established by
the NBA throughout this entire postseason, and I will be
able to tie each of these dynamics to specific things
that we have discussed on this show in this postseason run. Okay,
so for instance, let's talk about the talk about like
the bump foul that Jay dub got out of a
(25:03):
timeout in the second half that was a part of
an initial push by Oklahoma City or Shay's like stepped
through touch foul that kind of stuff. Okay, we talked
about if you guys remember in the Minnesota series.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
I tweeted out a clip of Alex.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Crusoe guarding Anthony Edwards and we discussed this clip on
the show, and in it I talked about how Alex
was being super handsy in four physical with Alex out
or excuse me, with Aunt out on the perimeter, and
he is super handsy. He's like grabbing him, holding him,
doing all that kind of stuff. And then Aunt breaks
(25:44):
Alex off with a pretty nasty move. And when he
breaks him off, he gets an angle. As soon as
he gets an angle, Alex goes hands off, and he's
up high and he's sliding his feet and he's taking
contact in the chest and ends up getting in the
lane and making like a really nifty reverse layup that
Alex tries to get to in time. He just barely
(26:05):
misses it. Really nice bucket from Ant. But I want
to call attention to Alex Caruso understanding the rules of
engagement the NBA has allowed throughout this entire postseason run
a ton of hands on contact when you are squared
up with the on ball guy.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
But when you get an angle.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
All postseason, they've been calling a lot more of that
contact In the last two rounds, it's been a little
bit less of like the lane line bump foul, but
we did see that. We've seen it a couple times
in the series. JDub got one last night. There was
one that I think it was Tyrese, I can't remember.
Alex Caruso had one in this series on Obi Toppin.
(26:48):
The lane line bump foul is still something we've seen
a few times in this series, but it's been called.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
A little bit less.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
But for the most part throughout this postseason run, if
you're squared up, you're allowed to be handsy. If you
give up an angle, get the hands off. That's been
the way they've called it. I don't like it in
the context of some of the grifty stuff they've allowed,
but they've been somewhat consistent in the way that they've
allowed contact on the perimeter versus contact on drive.
Speaker 3 (27:13):
So like, we know what the rules of engagement are.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
Similarly, off ball, what if I said NonStop regarding Steph
Curry in the way that the Houston Rockets guarded him
and the way that the Timberwolves were gonna guard him
if he didn't hurt himself. And looking back towards the
regular season, in every single time that Steph has ended
up in like a high leverage playoff moment, Warriors fans
constantly complain about what the grabbing and holding of Steph
(27:39):
off ball off ball. The NBA has allowed a shit
ton of contact in this entire postseason run. So, for instance,
if Tyrese Halliburton wants to work more out of dribble pitches,
meaning if he doesn't want to dribble the ball into
the screen, but he wants to have come flying off
that screen with Turner, he's got to understand there's gonna
(27:59):
be a lot more contact allowed there. Because throughout this
entire postseason run, if you are off the ball, cutting
two end from the basketball, they are letting you be handsy.
So what is Lou Dort doing there? Yeah, he's fouling
tyres by the book, But the NBA has established as
part of their rules of engagement in this postseason that
(28:21):
they're allowing a lot of off ball grabbing and holding
and pushing. So like, here's the thing. Did I think
it was ugly that they let Shay get away with
a push off while sending him to the freight throw
line on some really ticky tack shot attempts. Yeah, it's
not good television, but it kind of falls in line
with what they've been doing in this entire postseason run.
(28:42):
If you are a well coached team, which I think
the Pacers are, if you are a basketball team going
into any series in this playoff run, should be talking
to their guys and being like, hey, listen, when you're
on the perimeter, you can be physical, but once you
give up that angle, get the hands off, that's when
they're getting tight with the whistle. Or Hey, if we're
running off ball action, you guys need to be prepared
(29:05):
for physicality. This is part of the issue that we're
going to run into.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
We're gonna have.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
To be really careful with our handoffs, with our back
door cut passes in those situations. We saw another one
last night. How many times in this series in the
last two games have we seen Oklahoma City turn the
ball over because Indiana is bear hugging a dude in
a full denial and they try to back cut out
of it, and a Thunder player will throw a back
(29:31):
cut pass and that guy will be being held and
so he can't get to the ball in time, and
so the Pacers beat him to the ball, and now
they're running out the other way.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
That's the exact same thing hurting the Thunder.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
They are being physical in their off ball defense on
both ends of the floor, and so again I have
my frustrations. I hope the league works over the coming
years to get rid of some of this non basketball junk.
I want to see Shay Gildas Alexander win the title
making shots like the three he hit on the right wing.
(30:05):
I said this last night. I'm cool with the push off.
Let Shay push off. If defenders are going to be
handsy on the ball, Shay should be able to be
handsy back like I am.
Speaker 3 (30:16):
Like pro push off.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
You just can't not call the push off and then
also call the tiki tag stuff.
Speaker 3 (30:23):
It's bad television, I agree. But all of it.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
Falls in line in general with what the league has
allowed throughout this postseason run. Oklahoma City is taking those
rules of engagement, playing smartly within them, and leveraging that
to win postseason games. And I've seen a lot of
people just complaining about it on the other side instead
of doing the same. And I would argue the Pacers
(30:48):
have benefited from it in their own way, like we
discussed earlier. So again, let's separate conversations about the state
of the NBA and officiating from oh fairness and getting
screwed or whatever. The Pacers lost to the Thunder last
night because they couldn't score on them, and the same
thing happened to Minnesota and the same thing happened to Denver.
It's ultimately the demon that has to be conquered. If
(31:10):
you're gonna beat the Oklahoma City Thunder and the Thunder
of just maximize what you can do in terms of
defense within the context of what the league is allowing
in this postseason run. All right, two more quick mailbag
questions and then we'll get out of here for the day.
Do you think Dallas is a good destination for Kevin
Durant if they can keep Cooper Flag. So it gets
tricky because you're already super deep at Ford. So like,
(31:33):
if you look at the MAVs current roster, you have Lively, Gafford,
and Ads. You have three guys that can basically play
the five, and then you have PJ. Washington and you
have Cooper Flag. It's just a glut of front court players.
It's five guys that all can play like a starting
role on a on any team in the NBA that
(31:54):
play either the four or the five. And so that
makes it particularly tough in terms of like trying to
balance the roster by bringing in another power forward. Now,
speaking strictly from the basketball, I like kd's fit with
Anthony Davis. Anthony Davis at this phase in his career
is like a pretty big and strong center. So I
like that like physicality fit better than I like KD
(32:15):
with like a Victor women Yama, for example. I love
the idea of a KDAD back line in terms of defense,
the ability to have Anthony Davis come up to the
level in ball screens, which has always been one of
his elite traits. He's very good at contesting there, he's
very good at switching there, while KD can be the
low man that kind of operates on the backside. He's
the type of offensive player that they need. All that
(32:37):
makes a ton of sense. It's just a simple question
of timeline, right, So, like, are you going to continue
to dive into this older timeline with Anthony Davis and
an injured Kyrie Irving and potentially a Kevin Durant. Are
you going to lean into this younger timeline where you've
got some guys that are in their twenties like Daniel
(32:59):
Gafford in Washington and super young players that are on
the rise like Derek Lively and like Derek Lively and
a Cooper Flag and obviously guards like Jayden Hardy, like
there is there is a up and coming generation of
MAVs young players, and you've got to at a certain
point pick a timeline. I mean, we've just seen we
(33:21):
saw Golden State try to do the two timelines thing,
and it just has led to a lot of frustration
in the last few years as they've watched their young
guys all of a sudden become do a ton of money,
which has changed their value and trade conversations.
Speaker 3 (33:36):
It just gets tough.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
And so my thing is like, Okay, if you want
to get get kad and commit to like a Kevin Durant,
Anthony Davis, Kyrie Irving Corps, sure go ahead, But like,
at a certain point, you gotta pick. Are you gonna
go for the future with Cooper or are you gonna
go for the now and and I think if you
try to split the difference, you're gonna end up with
a mediocre team now and a mediocre team in the future.
Speaker 3 (33:59):
The guys that you have are valuable.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
If you can get Kyrie back out onto the floor
and get him playing, and get him demonstrating that his
knee is good and that he's ready to play, you
can trade him and get value for him. Same thing
goes for Anthony Davis. Same thing goes for some of
the depth that they have, Guys like PJ. Washington that
don't make a ton of sense on a Cooper Flag team,
Daniel Gafford that doesn't make a ton of sense on
a Derek Lively team. There are guys that Dallas can
(34:24):
flip to bring in a bunch of draft compensation and
then open things up for Cooper Flag to be able
to slowly work himself into the NBA player that he
wants to be. I'm okay with them starting the year
with this current roster. There's no reason to trade everybody
right now. Anthony Davis's value is lower because he was hurt.
Kyrie's value is lower because he's hurt. Bring everybody back,
(34:46):
go into camp be a funky, weird team that's too
deep in the front court and has a kind of
a few redundancies on the roster, But just be the best,
most fun team you can be until these guys kind
of get to the point where they rehab their trade value.
And when they do, then you can make that decision.
And who knows, Like maybe Kyrie and Anthony Davis both
look amazing, and like Kyrie comes back in less than
(35:10):
a year and manages to come back, you know, an
All Star break or something next year, and he looks
like Kyrie and AD looks like Ad and you look
like the super deep elite defense, and all of a sudden,
you can, you know, let Cooper flag slowly work his
way into the player he's going to become on a
competing team. But it's just I just don't think I
would throw all the chips in the bag for Kevin
(35:31):
Durant at this point. I think that that kind of
messes with the timeline for Dallas, and I think that's
a big part of why they haven't been a mentioned.
I still I've seen the reporting. It looks like there's
still several teams involved, but it looks like Minnesota is
becoming a more realistic destination. Minnesota, to me, is my
favorite Kevin Durant. Minnesota is my favorite Kevin Durant destination
(35:53):
by far. I just think that he is super fun
with ant. I think he compliments that team in every way.
I think they compliment at him in every way. It
would be a worthy match for a team like Oklahoma
City in a series that I would really like to
watch next year. I'm hoping for Kadi too Minnesota. Last question,
this isn't related to the NBA Finals, but did you
(36:14):
watch the Michael Beasley versus Lance Stephen one v one
would love to hear your thoughts on it.
Speaker 3 (36:18):
I didn't watch the whole video, but I saw highlights.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
And it reminded me of if any of you guys
who have ever played like a real one on one
with some animosity, where like both guys are really trying
to win and there's been some shit talk and it
kind of feels like pride is on the line. That's
what it looks like what you saw in that Michael
(36:43):
Beasley versus Land Stevenson. It gets super physical to the
point of like being borderline just a rugby match, and
it gets super intense and it ultimately comes down to
which guy can through physicality get to spots. So I'm
not surprised at all that the big, strong forward was
able to get to his spots more effectively and knockdown
(37:05):
shots over the top. But I remember being in a
couple of examples of like kind of like contentious one
on ones like that. I had one with a college
teammate when I was at Arizona Christian That was we
were actually joking about it with each other over Instagram
messaging to each other, like a couple months ago, but
like it.
Speaker 3 (37:25):
Was very similar.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
We got into it a few times of practice and
then we were like, you know, let's play some one
on one and it was like I remember it being
like one of us was bleeding too, Like it was
like the most physical game of one on one basketball
I've ever played in my entire life, because it just
becomes so intense when pride is on the line like that,
And anybody, anybody who's been in that situation knows exactly
what I'm talking about. But when I watched the Michael
(37:47):
Beasley Versus Land Stevenson one on one, I immediately just
got some like some of that, like just deja vu
from what that is like.
Speaker 3 (37:54):
And I think it's fun.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
I think it's an example of I don't think it
always has to be that content just like I think
if they did it at All Star, for instance, with
active NBA players, I think it would be less contentious
and a little bit more like, you know, both guys
kind of easing their way into it. But when you
put real money on the line, when you put real
pride on the line, one on one becomes.
Speaker 3 (38:14):
This blood bath, physical sport.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
And I'm not surprised that Michael Beasley was the guy
who won there. And obviously Michael's just one of the
more underrated one on one players in the history of
the league. He's got stories of him doing damage to
so many different players in practice over the years and
games over the years. But yeah, I just couldn't help
but think back to some of the more contentious one
(38:37):
on ones that I've been in in my life when
I was watching that video. All right, guys, that's all
I have for this morning is always as sincerely appreciate
you guys for supporting me and supporting the show. We
will be back on Monday night for Game five of
the NBA Finals. We'll have a live breakdown on YouTube
as well as our normal playback stream.
Speaker 3 (38:52):
I will see you guys then.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
What's up guys? As always, I appreciate you for listening
to and supporting OOPS tonight. They would actually be really
helpful for us. Would take a second and leave a
rating and a review. As always, I appreciate you guys
supporting us, but if you could take a minute to
do that, I'd really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (39:09):
The volume
The volume.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
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(02:00):
All right, well, come to hoop tonight here at the
volume heavy Saturday.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Everybody.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Hope all of you are having a good start to
your weekend. Well, we've slept on it. I wanted to
spend some time getting into some more details from some
of the numbers and some of the stuff I've been
digging into in the NBA Finals I want to kind
of zoom out after the first four games and talk
about some of the big picture dynamics that are taking place.
After that, I want to talk a little bit about
the future of the series, and then we have a
handful of mail bag questions, a couple geared around this
(02:24):
series and then a few geared around some other stuff
around the rest of the league. I also want to
talk a little bit about the refs and make sure
that we separate, you know, some of the discussion around
the rules of engagement and some of the realities as
to like whether or not Indiana got screwed. There's been
a lot of clips going around this morning with people
complaining about some of the physicality from Oklahoma City throughout
(02:45):
the game. I think the rules of engagement have been
pretty clear throughout this entire postseason, and Indiana is just
failing the exact same test that everyone else has failed.
And so I want to give okay See some credit
and make sure that we separate, you know, some big
picture discuss about the state of the NBA as it
pertains to officiating from whether or not this series has
been fair, because I do believe it has been fair.
(03:08):
So we'll be digging into some of those dynamics as well.
You guys have the joke before we get started. Subscribe
to Hoops Tonight YouTube channels. You don't miss any more
of our videos. Follow me on Twitter and underscore JCNLT
so you guys don't miss show announcement Soti'll forget.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
About o podcast feed where you get your podcast.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
On our Hoops Tonight. It's also super helpful if you
leave a rating and a review on that front. Jackson's
doing great work on our social media feeds Twitter, Instagram, Facebook,
and TikTok. Make sure you guys follow us there and
the last but not least, if you guys want to
get mail back questions in once we get out of
the finals, they'll be in the comments underneath the YouTube videos.
But for until the NBA Finals all over are over,
I've been doing them through our chats in our postgame shows.
(03:42):
So whenever we do a postgame show like on Monday,
you can just come to the show and drop your
questions in the chat, or if I tweet out a
question asking for mail back questions like I did last night.
All right, let's talk some basketball. So major checkpoints through
four games of the NBA Finals. I talk a lot
of out the idea of like different units, right, and
whether or not you can shake a unit, meaning like
(04:05):
can your defense rattle the foundation of their offense or
vice versa, And there have been some dynamics in this series,
I think for both teams in terms of defenses rattling
the foundations of offenses.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
Both of these teams.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
Are scoring at a rate that is far less efficient
than they did during the regular season. But the question
is which defense is doing more damage to the other side,
and I think it's Oklahoma City's defense easily. The Pacers
had a one eighteen offensive rating in the first round
series against the Milwaukee Bucks. They had a one to
seventeen offensive rating in the second round against the Cleveland Cavaliers,
(04:44):
a one eighteen offensive rating in the Conference finals against
the New York Knicks, in just a one oh nine
point eight offensive rating versus the Oklahoma City Thunder. I
rewatched the fourth quarter this morning, just trying to familiarize
myself with the way with which Oklahoma City came back
into that game, and a big part of it was
the physicality, which I want to talk about in a
(05:05):
little bit. When we talked about the officiating I'm going
to I was very critical of the big picture NBA
officiating issue with like foul rifting and how it kind
of messed with the end of a good game last night,
But I want to get into the specific dynamic with
the physicality and how it's been the rules of engagement
for everybody, and how Oklahoma City is just taking advantage
of it. I thought that was a big part of
(05:27):
it in the fourth quarter, and then obviously the second
piece of it. We talked a little bit about this
last night. Chet Holmgren was all over the rewatch for
me last night in the fourth quarter, obviously seeing the
offensive rebounds again, just you know, doing something pretty simple,
just crashing. Like we just was relentless getting to the
front of the rim and just caught pacers in switches
(05:49):
or in help situations. There was a play where nemhard
was matched up with him, but Nemhrd was kind of
digging in and helping elsewhere, and like that's the thing,
Like if you're going to dig in and help and
offer a towards another offensive player, that's attention. You're not
offering towards your specific matchup, which can offer a little
window of distraction, a window of space for you to
(06:11):
run in behind and try to make something happen, especially
if you're an athlete, and Chet you know, probably is
the best vertical like natural vertical length and athleticism player
on the floor, you know, so like he can actually
high point the ball in those situations and do a
good amount of damage. But the big thing was on defense.
You know, I've been thinking a lot about this defense.
(06:32):
We were talking about it last night on playback.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
It's the best.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
Defense I've personally ever watched. I think it's what I'll
remember most about this team. I'll remember them playing nikoley
Jokic into three straight bad games. The types of truly
embarrassing performances they've forced all these other guys into.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
Last night in the.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
Fourth quarter, Tyrese Halliburton getting stripped at half court, shooting
an air ball on a step back three, getting blocked
on a different step back three, like just these This
defense has taken some really good players and made them
look feeble relative to what their typical production is. And
that's really what is the defining characteristic of this Thunder team.
(07:13):
But you know, I talk a lot about when we're
talking about like the natural team build, like the best
way to build a team. I used to always go
through that like kind of progression where it's like, I
want a skill guard, I want an athletic guard. I
want a slender, perimeter oriented forward. I want a bigger, stronger,
more versatile big forward at the four.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
Spot, and then I want a big.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
And one of the things that I always talk about
with the big is defensive versatility. That has to be
a big that can defend in varying different kinds of
drop coverages, but also that can defend in switches. And
the reason why is each matchup is going to call
for different types of use from the center position. So
for instance, like let's say you're playing a team that
(07:55):
has like a straight up non shooter on the floor
that you're not particularly worried about behind the three point line.
Imagine like you're playing the Knicks and it's Josh Hart
for example, right, Like having a guy like that is
capable of being rangy around the rim as like a
center fielder helper at the rim is super valuable. Chet
had a huge help side rotation in an off ball
(08:17):
situation in the fourth quarter against Andrew Nemhard at the
basket where you know he got over there. He's a
touch late, but he got over there and he went vertical.
It was a good physical play. I liked the non
call in the moment. It's an example of him being
in a rangey, off ball kind of roaming spot where
he can do some damage as a helper.
Speaker 3 (08:38):
Right.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Then in different pick and roll coverages. Right, there are
certain examples of times when you need a big that
can get up to the level. So, for instance, an
elite pull up shooter like is Steph Curry got to
show at the level. An elite driver like Chet would
be a great weapon against the Shay Gilders Alexander because
of his ability to show up at the level and
to keep the ball in front. The big subplots of
(09:01):
this series is the damage that Shay has done to
Miles Turner and ball screens because when he comes up
to the level he can't keep Shay in front. And
then when you have athletes that are downhill threats but
that are not elite mid range shot makers, then you
can run a deeper drop coverage, and that deeper drop
coverage gives you the flexibility to be able to sag
(09:21):
back into the paint and chase over the top of
screens without conceding any sort of shot that is particularly
efficient or deadly to your defense. And then lastly, if
guys get wiped out by screens, which can happen, especially
in super physical playoff games, you need to have a
big that can switch out onto the perimeter and get
stops the way that Chet Holmgren did against Aaron E.
(09:44):
Smith excuse me, Andrew Nemhard and Tyrese Haliburton multiple times
down the stretch of that game, and that has been
a consistent theme in the Oklahoma City wins in this series.
Speaker 3 (09:53):
Looking back at Game two, Chet.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Holmgren's screaming off the screen, specifically in switching switches like
switching is the ultimate like it's the answer to every
action that any team wants to run, because as long
as you communicate through it, you can shut down the
advantages that come out of that action because you're just
talking to each other instead of fighting through screens. Right,
(10:17):
But the downside with switching is it puts a lot
of pressure on guys defending out of position, right, a
big having to defend a small, a small having to
defend a big, even on the glass for both bigs
and smalls, a quick guy crashing around a big on
the perimeter, or a big guy pinning a little guy
right underneath the basket. There's a lot of those dynamics
that can be solved if you have super versatile players,
(10:40):
guards that play bigger than they are, like a guys
like Alex Caruso, guys like Lou Dord. I think Jalen
Williams plays bigger than even his size would lead you
to believe. And then you have to have big guys
that can play smaller and like I think, a consistent
trend in this entire postseason run has been cheed. Holmgren's
ability to switch out onto the perimeter and at the
bare released forced you to take a contested off the
(11:03):
dribble jump shot. He's not getting beat off the dribble
like there was a play or Halliburton missed a step
back three at the top of the key last night
in the fourth quarter and Haliburton hit him with the moves.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
And jet buckled and almost fell.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
But it doesn't matter because he was overplaying the drive,
which is what you need from him. And when you've
got super long arms, you can actually be a bigger
factor in your recovery even when you're out of position
both physically and mentally. The arms obviously cause a problem,
but it gets in the offensive player's head. They changed
their release a little bit because they think they need
(11:39):
to shoot it higher, They think they need to shoot
it quicker, and like I just you know, when I
think about this Oklahoma City defense, the most obvious thing
to grasp two is the depth of perimeter defenders, and
obviously that's a huge part of what they do. Lou
Georg's job on Tyre's Haliburton the fourth quarter last night amazing.
(12:00):
Caruso in various matchups and various contexts throughout the series
has been amazing. The perimeter defense is big, shake yods
Alexander last night, we talked about the damage that he
did off the ball defensively in the second half of
that game. That's all great, but none of it works.
Like look at Houston, where it's like Shane Gun ends
(12:20):
up being this target that you can go after. If
you don't have a big man that can tie it
all together with the ability to run every single defensive
coverage efficiently and successfully, then you're going to have issues.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
Regardless of what.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
Type of perimeter defense you have, And I just wanted
to give some love to Chet Holmgren for the job
that he did last night. Which team has the most
reliable half court action? We talked about this last night.
I won't get too much further into it, but this
is the second thing I want to look at, zooming
out from a two to two series. We saw that
bear out last night. Shay's ISOs were super efficient down
(12:54):
the stretch and the Pacers had no idea what to do.
So before we get into some of the rest of
my kind of big picture checkpoints, I want to actually
skip ahead to one of our mailbag questions. It was
brought up in the playback tonight that it feels like
Indy doesn't have that guy down the stretch, sort of
lacks aggression, some sort of hierarchy. Who's getting shots in
crunch time? Who would you empower to be that guy
if you're Rick or is it just not the Pacers
(13:17):
team's way. And this was in reference to Dom, one
of our big Pacers fans who's been coming on playback.
And again for those of you guys who haven't had
a chance to hop over there, it's playback dot TV
slash Hoops tonight, we're going live after games and we
take callers and we just have a fun time talking
about hoops and it'd be a fun thing for you
guys to check out if you haven't had a chance
to hop over there yet. But anyway, Don was just
(13:39):
pointing out, like, man, it was just a reminder last
night that we just don't.
Speaker 3 (13:41):
Have that guy now.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
I would argue that in the future that's something that
the Pacers will have to address, and I think there's
a couple of specific directions they can go there. Like
it's looking to me like Nie Smith is the weakest
point in that starting lineup. At least within this series.
Nie Smith has been brutal been able to guard either
of Shae Kildes, Alexander or Jadab at any point in
(14:05):
the series. He was the target down the stretch. Last night,
he was the culprit for a lot of the foul
calls that were killing the Pacers down the stretch. You
want a guy like Ben Matherin to be able to
slot into that spot and be able to defend and
do all the things that Nie Smith does while bringing
some more of that off the dribble get to his
spots type of pop he's younger, he's a few years away.
(14:27):
That's a more realistic internal option. I don't think the
Pacers can afford to let Ben walk or do anything
that involves him potentially leaving the team, because he is
the one guy that has the upside on the roster
to become that type of shot maker. Now in the
short term, it's got to be Pascal Siakam. When I
rewatched the fourth quarter, there was one play where they
(14:49):
actually went to Siakam to try to initiate offense. It
was an iso, kind of like an attack of ball
pressure off the top of the key. He beat his
man with a move going towards the left, and when
he got into the lane, he kind of got out
of whack and a little out of control, which is
what happens against good ball pressure. And he tried to
(15:09):
spin over his left shoulder to throw a kickout pass
to an open shooter on the right wing, and Alex
Caruso had left that guy and threw an aggressive double
team and he came in flying with both arms up
and he got a deflection and forced a turnover on
Pascal Siakam. Was an ugly play, but the bigger takeaway
there is that was the only play in the fourth
(15:30):
quarter where they looked to Siakam to initiate offense. Now
where I get frustrated by that is like would it
have mattered. Probably not. Oklahoma City is the better team
in my opinion. I think that will continue to bear
out over the course of the next two or three
games of the series. But you still and he does
have a chance to win the series. Their chance is
(15:51):
in these situations where Oklahoma City really tightens the screws
that we know Indiana's defense can do damaged to Oklahoma City.
I think that's something they did a lot of damaged
to Oklahoma City's offense last night. But when Oklahoma City
really tightens the screws the way they do, they have
to find a way for reliable offense. And like, here's
the thing, Tyres is not going to be able to
shake free when Oklahoma City really locks in, Andrew and
(16:12):
Mhart's not going to be able to do much better
than a pretty tough step back mid ranger when everything
gets pretty When everything gets tight for Oklahoma City at
the end of the game, Pascal Siakam is the one
guy who has a true physical advantage to where if
you run action for him to get him the ball
on the block Against a smaller defender, He's going to
be able to get to that right shoulder fade away,
and it's a shot that has a physical reliability to it,
(16:37):
unlike some of these small guards and some of their
attempts to get shots off against these elite perimeter defenders.
So to me, in this series, if they end up
in that situation again, they have to make a more
intentional effort to just run like think of it like this,
run it out of action if you want to, but
just have Tyrese Halliburton run like you know, a pick
(16:57):
and pop with Miles Turner at the top of the
key where Miles pops to the left corner and run
basically a cross screen for run a cross screen for
Siakam off of the block towards that same block that
Miles Turner's on that side. Have Miles Turner throw the
post entry that way. You have Miles Turner's man further
away from the basket. You have smaller players and help.
(17:18):
Now Siakam's got the ball on the block. You can
run the same thing on either block, but basically get
Siakam an opportunity to get a deeper post catch. The
idea of running the cross screen is if you run
the cross screen, it gets Siakam's defender into trail position,
which allows you a better chance at a post up.
If they switch it, just have the cross screen or
(17:39):
be one of the smalls like involving Shay Gilders Alexander right,
if Shaye is the guy that's in that cross screen.
If they switch it and Shae tries to front the post,
we saw a couple examples of them try to force
that pass over the top and Shay ended up getting
the deflection. All you have to do is do a
better job of ceiling and then swing the ball back
towards the middle and then Siakam con seal and create
(18:02):
a good angle there for you to throw that pass in.
But there was no intentional effort to get the ball
to Siakam against mismatches, and that is if you have
to come up with a reliable half court action, something
that's going to guaranteed gets you a decent look and
a big spot. In this series, I think they've got
to lean on Siakam the post a little bit more
(18:24):
than they've.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
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Speaker 2 (19:00):
The other major takeaway that I have as I zoom
out from a two to two series is that Oklahoma
City has proven to be less dependent on jump shooting.
They're averaging eight more points in the paint per game
last night, a fifty to thirty six.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
Advantage, and points in the paint.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
Second chance points have been a big swing in big
spots in this series. Last night, the Thunder had twenty
three second chance points, including eight just in the fourth quarter.
Speaker 3 (19:26):
Huge difference in that game.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
That all comes down to those two things, their ability
to get dribble penetration and their overall athleticism advantage.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
We've seen Tyres Andrew Emhart.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
These guys when they get head up with Oklahoma City's guards,
they are unable to beat that first guy off the dribble.
We've seen TJ McConnell be able to do it. He's
out on the floor in that big spot. Late we've
seen Ben Matherin be able to come off of ball
screens and get to pull up jump shots, or to
be able to attack a guy's chest and get into
the lane. He wasn't on the floor until Nie Smith
(19:59):
fouled out. But in terms of the starting lineup, Tyreese
isn't gonna get dribble penetration, you know, against one against
a really locked in Oklahoma City defense. Very often neither
is Nemhar, neither's Nie Smith. Like that lineup struggles, whereas
on the Oklahoma City side, like J Dub and Shay
at the very least, can probe and get into the
(20:20):
paint basically whenever they want, which causes all sorts of issues.
Even just Shay and the attention that gets thrown his
way on ISOs is part of the reason why we
saw as many offensive rebounds as we did. We talked
about that earlier, with Chet beating them Harden like a nail.
Help situation. But that has been a significant trend in
this series. To me is like the physical advantages for
Oklahoma City has manifested in more reliable scoring that is
(20:42):
less dependent on jump shot result. Last night, they generated
eleven catch and shoot jump shots total in won that game.
Indiana generated substantially more catch and shoot shots and shot
a little better on them, and it just it just
didn't matter because of the fact that Oklahoma City consistently
generates stuff right at the rim. We've seen examples of
teams that have been able to flip that script. I mean,
(21:03):
the most significant ones that I can think of are
the Boston Celtics in twenty twenty four. You know, Golden
State always generated more points in the paint than people
realize that. Steph Curry is a guy that has had
success despite having a bit of variance in his game,
but more than more.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
Than the vast majority of the time.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
When we get back in NBA history, it's reliable stuff
close to the basket.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
That ends up winning championships.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
It's Jokichen twenty twenty three, it's Jannis in twenty twenty one,
it's Lebron and ad in twenty twenty Right like even
Kawhi Leonard brings a lot of that, like short range
shot making with physicality that like Shay gild As Alexander does.
Pascal Siakam obviously was such a big part of that
twenty nineteen playoff runt. Like having that reliable stuff at
(21:48):
the basket that's less dependent on jump shot resultant variants
is going to go a long way towards helping you
win in the later rounds of the NBA playoffs. All right,
so I have I want to talk about refs for
a minute, and then we have two non finals questions
and then we'll.
Speaker 3 (22:04):
Get out of here for the day.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
There's this narrative going around that I saw this morning,
and this is you know, this is where I get
separated from the ref discussion. There was a narrative going
around this morning that the Pacers basically got screwed. And
the big clip that's going around is that last little
half court turnover they had where Turner's trying to do
(22:28):
a dribble pitch with Halliburton out around half court and
Dort is like just holding him and grabbing him and
pushing him as he's trying to get to the ball,
and it ends up leading to a turnover. So I
want to set that aside for a second and say,
what I was complaining about last night has to do
is the with the aesthetics of the NBA. I think
(22:52):
it looks ridiculous to let Shay push off and not
go by the letter of the law and be like,
this is just physical basketball. But then every little tiny
bit of contact that involves him with his jump shot,
we're going to send him to the line for right,
(23:15):
including that grift around the foul line and then the
step through where Nie Smith got him on the forearm. Again,
by the book, all of those are fouls, and so
I don't like the missing like the unbalanced appropriation of
that or the application that the unbalanced application of the
rule book where we're allowing Shay to be super physical
(23:40):
against the defender to get separation, but then when the
defender actually stays attached to Shay, they're not allowed to
touch Shay. I think that that makes for a bad
television product. And in general, we had a highly entertaining
finals game last night that ended with a parade to
the foul line.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
So I just don't think it's good TV.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
I personally would like to see the league take steps
to basically never ever reward a non basketball play with
free throws ever, ever. Ever, Like, even if you're in
the penalty, if the guy's got his hand on his
arm and you do that janky ass pull up great
nice job side out of bounds, you're not getting free
throws for taking a non basketball shot. That is a
(24:20):
big picture take that I have surrounding the idea of
what I would like for officiating to look like in
the NBA, so we can have less of Luca grifting,
less of Brunson grifting, less of Shay Gil just Alexander grifting.
That's what I want, because it's bad for television. I'd
rather have them fix that. I do not think Guineana
got screwed last night, and the reason why is the
(24:42):
rules of engagement have been pretty clear and established by
the NBA throughout this entire postseason, and I will be
able to tie each of these dynamics to specific things
that we have discussed on this show in this postseason run. Okay,
so for instance, let's talk about the talk about like
the bump foul that Jay dub got out of a
(25:03):
timeout in the second half that was a part of
an initial push by Oklahoma City or Shay's like stepped
through touch foul that kind of stuff. Okay, we talked
about if you guys remember in the Minnesota series.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
I tweeted out a clip of Alex.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Crusoe guarding Anthony Edwards and we discussed this clip on
the show, and in it I talked about how Alex
was being super handsy in four physical with Alex out
or excuse me, with Aunt out on the perimeter, and
he is super handsy. He's like grabbing him, holding him,
doing all that kind of stuff. And then Aunt breaks
(25:44):
Alex off with a pretty nasty move. And when he
breaks him off, he gets an angle. As soon as
he gets an angle, Alex goes hands off, and he's
up high and he's sliding his feet and he's taking
contact in the chest and ends up getting in the
lane and making like a really nifty reverse layup that
Alex tries to get to in time. He just barely
(26:05):
misses it. Really nice bucket from Ant. But I want
to call attention to Alex Caruso understanding the rules of
engagement the NBA has allowed throughout this entire postseason run
a ton of hands on contact when you are squared
up with the on ball guy.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
But when you get an angle.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
All postseason, they've been calling a lot more of that
contact In the last two rounds, it's been a little
bit less of like the lane line bump foul, but
we did see that. We've seen it a couple times
in the series. JDub got one last night. There was
one that I think it was Tyrese, I can't remember.
Alex Caruso had one in this series on Obi Toppin.
(26:48):
The lane line bump foul is still something we've seen
a few times in this series, but it's been called.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
A little bit less.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
But for the most part throughout this postseason run, if
you're squared up, you're allowed to be handsy. If you
give up an angle, get the hands off. That's been
the way they've called it. I don't like it in
the context of some of the grifty stuff they've allowed,
but they've been somewhat consistent in the way that they've
allowed contact on the perimeter versus contact on drive.
Speaker 3 (27:13):
So like, we know what the rules of engagement are.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
Similarly, off ball, what if I said NonStop regarding Steph
Curry in the way that the Houston Rockets guarded him
and the way that the Timberwolves were gonna guard him
if he didn't hurt himself. And looking back towards the
regular season, in every single time that Steph has ended
up in like a high leverage playoff moment, Warriors fans
constantly complain about what the grabbing and holding of Steph
(27:39):
off ball off ball. The NBA has allowed a shit
ton of contact in this entire postseason run. So, for instance,
if Tyrese Halliburton wants to work more out of dribble pitches,
meaning if he doesn't want to dribble the ball into
the screen, but he wants to have come flying off
that screen with Turner, he's got to understand there's gonna
(27:59):
be a lot more contact allowed there. Because throughout this
entire postseason run, if you are off the ball, cutting
two end from the basketball, they are letting you be handsy.
So what is Lou Dort doing there? Yeah, he's fouling
tyres by the book, But the NBA has established as
part of their rules of engagement in this postseason that
(28:21):
they're allowing a lot of off ball grabbing and holding
and pushing. So like, here's the thing. Did I think
it was ugly that they let Shay get away with
a push off while sending him to the freight throw
line on some really ticky tack shot attempts. Yeah, it's
not good television, but it kind of falls in line
with what they've been doing in this entire postseason run.
(28:42):
If you are a well coached team, which I think
the Pacers are, if you are a basketball team going
into any series in this playoff run, should be talking
to their guys and being like, hey, listen, when you're
on the perimeter, you can be physical, but once you
give up that angle, get the hands off, that's when
they're getting tight with the whistle. Or Hey, if we're
running off ball action, you guys need to be prepared
(29:05):
for physicality. This is part of the issue that we're
going to run into.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
We're gonna have.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
To be really careful with our handoffs, with our back
door cut passes in those situations. We saw another one
last night. How many times in this series in the
last two games have we seen Oklahoma City turn the
ball over because Indiana is bear hugging a dude in
a full denial and they try to back cut out
of it, and a Thunder player will throw a back
(29:31):
cut pass and that guy will be being held and
so he can't get to the ball in time, and
so the Pacers beat him to the ball, and now
they're running out the other way.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
That's the exact same thing hurting the Thunder.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
They are being physical in their off ball defense on
both ends of the floor, and so again I have
my frustrations. I hope the league works over the coming
years to get rid of some of this non basketball junk.
I want to see Shay Gildas Alexander win the title
making shots like the three he hit on the right wing.
(30:05):
I said this last night. I'm cool with the push off.
Let Shay push off. If defenders are going to be
handsy on the ball, Shay should be able to be
handsy back like I am.
Speaker 3 (30:16):
Like pro push off.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
You just can't not call the push off and then
also call the tiki tag stuff.
Speaker 3 (30:23):
It's bad television, I agree. But all of it.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
Falls in line in general with what the league has
allowed throughout this postseason run. Oklahoma City is taking those
rules of engagement, playing smartly within them, and leveraging that
to win postseason games. And I've seen a lot of
people just complaining about it on the other side instead
of doing the same. And I would argue the Pacers
(30:48):
have benefited from it in their own way, like we
discussed earlier. So again, let's separate conversations about the state
of the NBA and officiating from oh fairness and getting
screwed or whatever. The Pacers lost to the Thunder last
night because they couldn't score on them, and the same
thing happened to Minnesota and the same thing happened to Denver.
It's ultimately the demon that has to be conquered. If
(31:10):
you're gonna beat the Oklahoma City Thunder and the Thunder
of just maximize what you can do in terms of
defense within the context of what the league is allowing
in this postseason run. All right, two more quick mailbag
questions and then we'll get out of here for the day.
Do you think Dallas is a good destination for Kevin
Durant if they can keep Cooper Flag. So it gets
tricky because you're already super deep at Ford. So like,
(31:33):
if you look at the MAVs current roster, you have Lively, Gafford,
and Ads. You have three guys that can basically play
the five, and then you have PJ. Washington and you
have Cooper Flag. It's just a glut of front court players.
It's five guys that all can play like a starting
role on a on any team in the NBA that
(31:54):
play either the four or the five. And so that
makes it particularly tough in terms of like trying to
balance the roster by bringing in another power forward. Now,
speaking strictly from the basketball, I like kd's fit with
Anthony Davis. Anthony Davis at this phase in his career
is like a pretty big and strong center. So I
like that like physicality fit better than I like KD
(32:15):
with like a Victor women Yama, for example. I love
the idea of a KDAD back line in terms of defense,
the ability to have Anthony Davis come up to the
level in ball screens, which has always been one of
his elite traits. He's very good at contesting there, he's
very good at switching there, while KD can be the
low man that kind of operates on the backside. He's
the type of offensive player that they need. All that
(32:37):
makes a ton of sense. It's just a simple question
of timeline, right, So, like, are you going to continue
to dive into this older timeline with Anthony Davis and
an injured Kyrie Irving and potentially a Kevin Durant. Are
you going to lean into this younger timeline where you've
got some guys that are in their twenties like Daniel
(32:59):
Gafford in Washington and super young players that are on
the rise like Derek Lively and like Derek Lively and
a Cooper Flag and obviously guards like Jayden Hardy, like
there is there is a up and coming generation of
MAVs young players, and you've got to at a certain
point pick a timeline. I mean, we've just seen we
(33:21):
saw Golden State try to do the two timelines thing,
and it just has led to a lot of frustration
in the last few years as they've watched their young
guys all of a sudden become do a ton of money,
which has changed their value and trade conversations.
Speaker 3 (33:36):
It just gets tough.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
And so my thing is like, Okay, if you want
to get get kad and commit to like a Kevin Durant,
Anthony Davis, Kyrie Irving Corps, sure go ahead, But like,
at a certain point, you gotta pick. Are you gonna
go for the future with Cooper or are you gonna
go for the now and and I think if you
try to split the difference, you're gonna end up with
a mediocre team now and a mediocre team in the future.
Speaker 3 (33:59):
The guys that you have are valuable.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
If you can get Kyrie back out onto the floor
and get him playing, and get him demonstrating that his
knee is good and that he's ready to play, you
can trade him and get value for him. Same thing
goes for Anthony Davis. Same thing goes for some of
the depth that they have, Guys like PJ. Washington that
don't make a ton of sense on a Cooper Flag team,
Daniel Gafford that doesn't make a ton of sense on
a Derek Lively team. There are guys that Dallas can
(34:24):
flip to bring in a bunch of draft compensation and
then open things up for Cooper Flag to be able
to slowly work himself into the NBA player that he
wants to be. I'm okay with them starting the year
with this current roster. There's no reason to trade everybody
right now. Anthony Davis's value is lower because he was hurt.
Kyrie's value is lower because he's hurt. Bring everybody back,
(34:46):
go into camp be a funky, weird team that's too
deep in the front court and has a kind of
a few redundancies on the roster, But just be the best,
most fun team you can be until these guys kind
of get to the point where they rehab their trade value.
And when they do, then you can make that decision.
And who knows, Like maybe Kyrie and Anthony Davis both
look amazing, and like Kyrie comes back in less than
(35:10):
a year and manages to come back, you know, an
All Star break or something next year, and he looks
like Kyrie and AD looks like Ad and you look
like the super deep elite defense, and all of a sudden,
you can, you know, let Cooper flag slowly work his
way into the player he's going to become on a
competing team. But it's just I just don't think I
would throw all the chips in the bag for Kevin
(35:31):
Durant at this point. I think that that kind of
messes with the timeline for Dallas, and I think that's
a big part of why they haven't been a mentioned.
I still I've seen the reporting. It looks like there's
still several teams involved, but it looks like Minnesota is
becoming a more realistic destination. Minnesota, to me, is my
favorite Kevin Durant. Minnesota is my favorite Kevin Durant destination
(35:53):
by far. I just think that he is super fun
with ant. I think he compliments that team in every way.
I think they compliment at him in every way. It
would be a worthy match for a team like Oklahoma
City in a series that I would really like to
watch next year. I'm hoping for Kadi too Minnesota. Last question,
this isn't related to the NBA Finals, but did you
(36:14):
watch the Michael Beasley versus Lance Stephen one v one
would love to hear your thoughts on it.
Speaker 3 (36:18):
I didn't watch the whole video, but I saw highlights.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
And it reminded me of if any of you guys
who have ever played like a real one on one
with some animosity, where like both guys are really trying
to win and there's been some shit talk and it
kind of feels like pride is on the line. That's
what it looks like what you saw in that Michael
(36:43):
Beasley versus Land Stevenson. It gets super physical to the
point of like being borderline just a rugby match, and
it gets super intense and it ultimately comes down to
which guy can through physicality get to spots. So I'm
not surprised at all that the big, strong forward was
able to get to his spots more effectively and knockdown
(37:05):
shots over the top. But I remember being in a
couple of examples of like kind of like contentious one
on ones like that. I had one with a college
teammate when I was at Arizona Christian That was we
were actually joking about it with each other over Instagram
messaging to each other, like a couple months ago, but
like it.
Speaker 3 (37:25):
Was very similar.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
We got into it a few times of practice and
then we were like, you know, let's play some one
on one and it was like I remember it being
like one of us was bleeding too, Like it was
like the most physical game of one on one basketball
I've ever played in my entire life, because it just
becomes so intense when pride is on the line like that,
And anybody, anybody who's been in that situation knows exactly
what I'm talking about. But when I watched the Michael
(37:47):
Beasley Versus Land Stevenson one on one, I immediately just
got some like some of that, like just deja vu
from what that is like.
Speaker 3 (37:54):
And I think it's fun.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
I think it's an example of I don't think it
always has to be that content just like I think
if they did it at All Star, for instance, with
active NBA players, I think it would be less contentious
and a little bit more like, you know, both guys
kind of easing their way into it. But when you
put real money on the line, when you put real
pride on the line, one on one becomes.
Speaker 3 (38:14):
This blood bath, physical sport.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
And I'm not surprised that Michael Beasley was the guy
who won there. And obviously Michael's just one of the
more underrated one on one players in the history of
the league. He's got stories of him doing damage to
so many different players in practice over the years and
games over the years. But yeah, I just couldn't help
but think back to some of the more contentious one
(38:37):
on ones that I've been in in my life when
I was watching that video. All right, guys, that's all
I have for this morning is always as sincerely appreciate
you guys for supporting me and supporting the show. We
will be back on Monday night for Game five of
the NBA Finals. We'll have a live breakdown on YouTube
as well as our normal playback stream.
Speaker 3 (38:52):
I will see you guys then.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
What's up guys? As always, I appreciate you for listening
to and supporting OOPS tonight. They would actually be really
helpful for us. Would take a second and leave a
rating and a review. As always, I appreciate you guys
supporting us, but if you could take a minute to
do that, I'd really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (39:09):
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On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Ridiculous History
History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.