October 10, 2019 • 36 mins
This week on Wins & Losses, Clay Travis is joined by the Action Network’s Darren Rovell to discuss the ongoing saga between the NBA and China, which was spurred by a Daryl Morey tweet. The two dive into this week’s huge topic and go back and forth, debating the decision making by the NBA and Adam Silver, the choice words used all week by players and coaches around the league, and also discuss the potential impact this whole ordeal may cause in the immediate and distant future.
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
This is Wins and Losses with Clay Trevis. Clay talks
with the most entertaining people in sports, entertainment and business.
Now here's Clay Trevis. Welcome and Clay Travis so Wins
and lost his podcast. Special addition, we are reacting to
(00:24):
the NBA in China and we have got Darren Ravel
with us. Darren works at the at the What what
is the the Action Network? I was gonna say there's
too many different companies now that had to start with
an A. He's at the Action Network. Um, and uh
he is? Uh he has. We've been talking. We went
back and forth on Twitter about this. People out there
(00:45):
who haven't been paying attention. Earlier this week, Darryl Moray,
the the general manager of the Houston Rockets, and a
tweet supportive of democracy protests in Hong Kong, which is
a semi autonomous region of China. The Chinese government flipped
out over this at the same time that basically the
NBA was supposed to be having a goodwill tour and
(01:09):
everything has fallen apart since then. We are talking now.
On Thursday afternoon, they played the first preseason game between
the Lakers and the Nets, but the but China mandated
that there would be no media availabilities associated with that.
In the NBA acquiesced to those requirements. China also refused
(01:30):
to play the games in the country. You could watch
the game here in the United States on the NBA
UH network if you put it on early this morning. So, uh, Darren,
So let's let's start here. Uh. My contention is that
this is a body blow of a significant magnitude to
the NBA's over overall brand, which I believe is rooted
(01:52):
in authenticity. And the authenticity that the NBA has sold,
at least to a large percentage of its fan base
is our players are real, They say what they think.
We don't police their opinions on anything. And now the
NBA has found itself confronted with a true issue of
a substantial global nature, unlike let's say, the transgender bathroom
(02:16):
law in North Carolina, which led the team to abandon
the state of North Carolina, or something as relatively inconsequential
as the use of the word owner, which the NBA
replaced with governor. Do you believe and agree with me
that this has been a overall very bad week for
the NBA. Let's let let let me just start by
(02:37):
going going back a little bit. Daryl Morey is the
GM of the Houston Rockets. He's not the GM of
the Memphis Grizzlies or another team. The reason why that's
important is because Killman for Tita just bought this team
for two point two billion dollars, and probably ten percent
(02:57):
of that valuation is based on the fact that through
Yao Ming, the Rockets became the most relevant team in
China more than their relevance deserves, more than they deserve
at all. Um, And so what percent? So let me
cut you off there. What percentage of that two point
one billion dollar valuation of the Houston Rockets do you
think was attributable to their overall brand value in China? Uh?
(03:22):
At least ten, I would think, I would think more.
But two million dollars you think connected? Yes? Yes? And
if you were to tell me that, um, there's going
to be horrible relations for five years and the Houston
Rockets at least for five years with no foreseeable future
of returning to where they were before, I would say that,
(03:44):
you know, it's three hundred or five hundred million dollars off. Um, Yes,
this is a this was a Collot. This is this
was a horrible, horrible week for the NBA, So let's
put that in context. But the fact that it was
the rockets and the fact that the guy who kicked
down the door, Yao Ming, had to make a comment,
(04:06):
he couldn't hide because he is running the Chinese Basketball Association,
So it could not have been worse. From that standpoint,
What do you think Darryl Moray was thinking? Do you
think he had any clue what he was stepping into
when he decided to tweet? Why do you think he
decided to do it? Okay, So I've done about a
(04:26):
hundred fifty thousand, hundred sixty thousand tweets. I don't know
if this is the same for you for nearly a
hundred nearly a hundred thousand of tweets, by the way,
for me, so so for the five absolutely horrific tweets
that I put out, there is one thing in common.
I was not a focused. My twins were crying. I
(04:50):
was doing something else. I was watching something else. I
truly Daryl Morey's a smart guy. He's an m I
t he's a Northwestern guy. I mean I think that
in the moment, whether he was drinking or whether he
was just not a focused He knew what he was saying,
(05:10):
but did not did not digest the fact in the
moment for some reason. How perilous this was, be sure
to catch live editions about kicked the coverage with Clay
Travis week days at six am Eastern three am Pacific.
And it's interesting because we talked about this a little bit. Uh,
I know, we went back and forth on Twitter. I
(05:31):
believe about this the most expensive tweets that have ever
been sent. Elon Musk had his issue with the Securities
and Exchange Commission when he said he was going to
take Tesla private for four hundred and twenty dollars and
then later had to pay a huge fine and I
think give up its chairmanship or a part of the
governing structure of Tesla as a result. You had Roseanne
lose her show over her attack on Valerie Jarrett. You
(05:56):
have had Donald Trump certainly has sent tweets that have
either hurt the market cap or impacted the overall start market.
A gender Kardashian correct, there was about Snapchat that wasn't
overall like basically, I think I can't remember if it
was Kylie Jenner or Kendall Jenner and Frankly, I can't
tell the difference between the two, but one of them
said that Snapchat is is like the new design on
(06:19):
Snapchat is awful, and it was a cataclysmic hit to
their stock. Nike obviously announces Kaepernick has a drop, then
goes back up. But the difference, I would say in
general with those is the stock market value, you know,
like adjust every single day, So unlike those where they
can bounce around with stock prices and everything else, this
(06:39):
has more of I think an impactful and potentially lingering
resonance than some of those do. Would you agree? Yes?
And you know, I want to go back because I
want to be able to answer your question. You know,
you talked about authenticity now. I never I still thought
it was the Jordan's I wasn't tricked by their social
(07:03):
warrior status. I thought it was very much the Jordan
Republican Dubai shoes too. Um and I do agree that
it looks shallow to not engage in this when you
have issues of human rights and lack of freedom. But
(07:26):
you know what it's it's the truth is and they
can never say this. It's not important to them. It's
not important to their lives, and that's why they can't
talk because and maybe that's horrible, but it's they can't.
They can't. They can relate to police brutality and wear
shirts I can't breathe, but they cannot relate to a
(07:51):
place that is not free and where you're persecuted and
thrown in jail for things in America that they just can't.
They can't relate or they can't relate that quickly. And
so I think they're being honest by not saying anything.
But I also do think because if they said something,
if it was what you really wanted to hear, it
(08:13):
be really ugly. But I do think it is a
shot against their authenticity. The question is what does what
is that worth? And I don't think it's worth that much. Okay,
I disagree. I think it's worth substantiable. Let's take away
from the individual players for a moment and let me
just say I think the NBA opened itself up to
(08:33):
this accusation of hypocrisy, and Adam Silver did as well.
And this is not something that's unique to me. I
wrote this three years ago, and it's not something that's
unique just to the NBA either. It annoys me to
no end when people decide to say, like I think
there were a couple of rock bands, for instance, that said, Hey,
I'm not going to play in North Carolina because I
(08:54):
disagree with the transgender bathroom bill in the North Carolina
state legislature. But those same rock stars or rappers or
whoever they may be, are willing to go to all
sorts of kleptocracies around the world and play concerts in
those places, and they don't care at all about the
fact that they're playing in front of an audience that
(09:15):
doesn't have the same basic human rights that they take
for granted as Americans. I would say, you are you are?
You are believing that there should be consistency, and I
think in life there is not consistency. You know there
when when something is closer to you, even geographically, you
(09:36):
feel different about it. I would suggest that this is
that what I think is happening here is I never
bought into this woke universe of response. I thought it
was something that to me, if you're going to be
considered brave, and I've said this for a long time,
you have to risk life, liberty, or at minimum something
(09:56):
very dear to you, in order to be truly called brave, right,
I think that's a air definition of bravery. The NBA
and the players have not risked anything by the stances
that they have taken in the United States related to politics.
I would say that for Steve Kerr, I would say
that for Greg Popovich, I would say that for Lebron James,
I would say that for Adam Silver. They have gone
(10:18):
after targets that are not in the wheelhouse of their
existing fan base. If they are going to do that,
and again, I I am of the ILK that believes that. Ultimately,
if the NBA had just said all along, hey, we're
about trying to make as much money as a capitalistic
organization as is possible, then I think people like me
(10:38):
would not have called them out on hypocrisy. I don't
mind that, right. I understand what Disney is trying to
do with China. I understand what Apple is trying to
do with China. All these big multinational global brands that
have to somehow in order to make money off China,
acquiesced to some Chinese directives. I don't think it's smart
as a as a political matter, but that's for governmental relations.
(11:02):
I don't really get involved with individual brands, but you're you're,
you're basically upset with the self branding and the societal
branding of the NBA players as social warriors at whatever cost. Yeah,
and well, because there is no cost to them. I
mean they they have, you know, been praised and and
(11:25):
and and gotten treated as if they are incredibly brave
for stances that they have to get required that require
no risk. And what happens for its icons. We we
we overestimate, you know, we we talk about how charitable
they are, and you know, and then you look behind
it and you see that, you know, they don't give
(11:45):
any money to their own foundations, and we prop these
guys up on a pedestal for everything that they do.
I think there's some truth to that, but I think
there's a different level that the NBA received, And I
think the media was culpable here. And I do think
I'm curious if you agree with me here the NBA,
the media that covers the NBA, if you compare them
(12:05):
in general to the media that covers the NFL, is
much less contentious and much more akin to a cheerleader
group than it is to a rigorous and why do
you think that agreed and that and that's that's that's
also because they've they've had practice the NFL. I think
the media has feels less pressure on itself because Roger
(12:29):
Goodell is universally hated but much. I think before this,
I think Adam Silver before this was you know, lauded
and loved and and seen as smart. But I think
that's because to a large extent, the people who cover
the NBA agree with the social causes that NBA players
(12:49):
and owners in the league has its best. No. I
think it's because they're more comfortable listen. When when you're
a reporter, you have to know when to take your
shots and if taking your shots are worth it, taking
shots at Roger Goodell or the establishment of the NFL
or the union. It's easier to recover from taking those
(13:11):
shots because you have the whole world behind you. It's
chicken or egg. I mean, it's like you know you have.
It's because there has been so much negative and the
public agrees with the negative. That's what frees up NFL
reporters from being able to criticize in the way that
NBA reporters don't. I think that's interesting, but to me,
(13:34):
the purpose of having a free and independent media is
having media members who are brave enough not to worry
about who's lining up behind them. I can maybe I'm
rare in this, but I can legitimately say when I
do my radio show, or I do my periscope, Facebook,
or I write my columns, I never think are people
going to agree with what I say or what I write?
(13:56):
I think, do I believe? But but don Clay, you
don't have to show up at the arena every day.
You don't have to you don't have to show your face.
But but that goes to the point, that goes to
the point of yeah, that's what makes you you, but
it also makes you more comfortable by the virtue of
the fact that you don't have to show your face. Well,
(14:18):
but most of those most of those guys are useless.
I mean this goes to a larger context of what's
the value of most people who cover a team? Not much?
I mean, right, like if you took out if you
knocked out of the people who show up for a
press conference and only allowed two percent of people to
(14:38):
ask the questions. And I've been arguing this for a
long time. The value of the press conference would be
higher because there's a huge percentage of people there that
provide actually nothing of value based on their attendance there.
So look, if if Lebron James said, Hey, I'll have
a sit down with you and you can ask me
any question under the sun, I would do it. He
(15:00):
wouldn't do it because I would actually ask him questions
that he doesn't want to answer, I always say on
my radio. And he believes, and he believes as all
these NBA stars believed that they should be afforded the
right to pick and choose the questions. Now, now, I've
never said that they were social warriors. I never said
(15:21):
that they deserved more than I thought they deserved that society.
That's not my problem. But yes, I mean they're they're
going to pick and choose because they feel like they
deserve the right to do that, because they've achieved basketball
success and they don't want anything to compromise them. Yeah.
I don't think that there's any danger to them though,
is my point? Like, if Lebron James came out and
(15:43):
truly wanted to be the Mohammed Ali of our generation
as opposed to lazy people who haven't studied history, comparing
him to Mohammed Ali. He could say it's more profitable
to pick and choose, correct. I understand that. But if
Lebron James truly wanted to be Mohammed Ali, he could
come out and say, I believe all one point four
billion people in China should have the same basic human
(16:07):
rights that we have in America, and the fact that
they don't is wrong. It's a very simple statement, but
it worth eight million dollars a year for him not
to say that. Okay, but he's got hundreds of millions
of dollars, and so Mohammad Ali risked his entire career
in order to become Muhammad Ali. I mean, he took
a stand on a contentious social issue that a lot
(16:28):
of people disagreed with. For all of Lebron's talk about
how brave he is and how active he is, what's
the most controversial thing that Lebron James has ever said.
I'm taking my talents to South Beach. It was entirely
a decision rooted in sports. He's never said anything remotely
comparable to I ain't got no quarrel with the Viet
(16:50):
Com which is what Muhammad Ali said. You do have
to be fair, you do have to compare generations. So like,
would Muhammad Ali be who he was if the endorsements
were dangling the way they're dangling, And that's a great question.
Maybe maybe he never would have. Like Lebron is a
(17:10):
step up from Jordan's. Jordan wouldn't talk about anything, So
Lebron's a step up. He'll talk about things he's comfortable with,
but he will talk. Jordan wasn't comfortable with talking about
Ain't Steven I would? I would disagree, And that's an
interesting argument. You can argue that Jordan was a step
Lebron's a step up from Jordans. I actually disagree. I
think what Jordan represented was the goal of appealing to
(17:33):
everyone with the excellence of his talents. But he only
wanted for his talents in basketball to be his calling card.
That is, to me different than Lebron, who I think
recognized that he was not going to ever reach the
six titles of Michael Jordan's or reach the elevated stature
worldwide of Michael Jordan's, and so about twelve or fourteen
(17:55):
years into his into his career, he pivoted and decided,
I'm going to try to become a figure like Muhammad
Ali more than I'm going to be a figure like
Michael Jordan's. And as a result, they give both of
these guys. You can you give these guys, both of
these guys way too much credit. I don't. I don't
think they think about their brand in that way. I
(18:17):
think Jordan's just simply said, listened up until this point
in a black man wasn't speaking to white to white
people for endorsements just didn't happen. I mean, yes, there was,
there were small endorsements. O J. J had hurts other
than O J. Who who who, as alleged by Black
(18:38):
America like made himself white to do it. Um. But
but yeah, but yeah, no, and so it was enough
of a challenge to be the everyman as a black
person in five um. And and so I don't think
he wanted to screw that up. Um but I don't.
But I think there's appeal there, right because Jordan. If
(18:58):
you wanted to kind of put Jordan in that context
of becoming an everyman pitch man whose race was not
integral to his overall appeal, that was also the case
with back in that those days, Eddie Murphy, will Smith
would later take that baton Bill Cosby, certainly in The
Cosby Show, which was revolutionary in the sense that it
portrayed a black American family as not that much different
(19:21):
than a white American family. Right, You're trying to appeal
to everyone, the idea being that we, despite our differences
of race or gender, ethnicity, whatever else, actually have a
lot more in common than we do indifferent And I
think what Lebron has done is sliced and diced a
small segment of that population and said I'm gonna try
to fulfill and be the every man for this small group.
(19:44):
And I think that you may be right that it's
not a calculated decision. I tend to think there are
tons of branding people that are sitting around with these
guys trying to pitch them all day long on what
they think makes sense. Um and uh. And certainly social
media can complicate this because you have the ability to
make decisions kind of instantaneously. Um. And The idea with
social media, and I think you would agree, is that
(20:04):
authenticity matters more than anything. But if Lebron is going
to sell this idea of a quality of everybody being
on the same level of the importance of speaking truth
to power. That's kind of his brand now, right. He
certainly has basically just done what he said he would
never do, which is shut up in dribble for money. Yeah, no,
(20:24):
I I get it. I don't think I think, well,
well that makes sense. I don't think that's going to
cost him. I don't. I don't think that's going to
cost him. And the reason I said I thought Adam
Silver had a win was, you know, I do think
it was a win for for the business. And I'm
not trying to say that it was the it was
(20:45):
the right move. I just do think that, you know,
I had thought that that China wanted to win, and
I thought they'd lock him out of the arena. Known
would show up. They didn't lock him out of the arena,
and everyone showed up. Fox Sports Radio has the best
sports talk lineup in the nation. Catch all of our
shows at Fox sports Radio dot com and within the
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(21:08):
I think China saying you can come play, but you
have to play by our rules, which means you can't
talk to the media, which means your players say nothing.
I think that's a win for China because it is
I mean, really, if you break it down, what actually
happened there. China told the NBA and their teams and
their biggest stars Lebron James, Adam Silver, Kyrie Irving, Anthony
Davis shut up and dribble, or you have to leave
(21:30):
our country and we're gonna money, and they did. I
think in the process of playing the game and not
walking away, I think Adam Silver felt like he had
to do what was right for business, and I think
from a business standpoint that was right. I also think
that you know, the people who I'm just I'm trying
to look at this in a non emotional way, right like,
(21:53):
just from the business standpoint, and it's hard to do
that because of what China has done to its people.
But um, I think that he did make the right
move in being able to play the actual game despite
the fact, as he said that it was not on
TV there. Um he did not leave. He did not
(22:13):
leave because he basically was saying, we want to play
for you, we want to be here, even if it
was under their terms. Um, I think that I think
it was the right move from a business standpoint, and
I was told there were people who were trying to
tell him, no, we should go, we should go, and
he was absolutely insistent that they play the game. Yeah,
(22:34):
I disagree. I think that I think they should have gone.
Here here's what I would say. You asked a good question,
what's the impact when they come back to the United States, right,
because not like they're going to stay in China for
very long. Here's where I think this could be significant
for them. I think certainly when they start to try
to speak out again. Like let's say that I don't know,
I don't know where the next All Star Game is
going to be, but let's say it could happen. It
(22:55):
wouldn't be stunning, right if in the state of Georgia,
Like you may know where the next NBA All Star
Game is gonna be. I'm just gonna pick a state, Georgia.
Let's say that Georgia has an abortion but like they
have that abortion bill that Hollywood wasn't happy about, right
or whatever you want to call it. And there was
talk about, oh, we're gonna pull our pull our resources
out of the state of Georgia because of the precedent
that they set with North Carolina. Anytime they're going into
(23:18):
a state that has a controversial political legislation in front
of it. Now people are gonna say, well, you pulled
out of North Carolina. If they decide to get involved
in that politically, the immediate response is going to be, dude,
you played games in China. You can't complain about any
existing state law anymore in the United States, no doubt,
(23:41):
There is no doubt to me that that is accurate.
That is accurate that they that they have I agree
with you, they have compromised their ability to really do
anything from a political maybe social standpoint now that you
can always bring up China. Not only that, like sorry,
(24:03):
you can line up. But the question is, I don't
think that costs them that much. That's that's where we differ. Yeah,
I'm gonna get I'm gonna get to that in a seccause.
I do think also all this conversation, every single team
that wins, are you going to go to the White
House as long as Donald Trump is there? It's a discussion.
If the Lakers win the title, let's say, and Lebron
(24:24):
James tries to make a big statement by saying, I'm
not gonna go see that bum in the White House,
meaning Donald Trump, It's not going to have any residents anymore,
because immediately, even for people who support Lebron James, they're
gonna kind of have to nod their head and say,
but dude, you were willing to go play in China,
and you shut up and you said nothing. And then
you come back into America and you take advantage of
(24:45):
freedom of speech and the fact that there's no real
danger to your brand. You look like a hypocrite. Now
you went to China, but you wouldn't go to the
White House. Now, let me also say this, You know
as well as I do, that the NBA Finals bring
in a huge audience that isn't otherwise committed to the NBA. Right,
Like the die hard NBA fan I tend to agree
(25:05):
with you is probably not going to be very impacted
by this. Right, if you have season tickets, if you
like a particular team, if you like a particular player,
you're probably going to continue. But that's a relatively small
part of the American sporting audience. In fact, if you
look at like the start of the NBA playoffs, four
or five million people might watch a big NBA playoff
game in the early rounds versus fourteen or fifteen million
(25:28):
who watch in the NBA Finals sometime up to you know,
I think what happens is those are the people the
NBA has to be concerned about. And I do think
there are a lot of part and that a lot
of people in the middle part of the country. I
live in Nashville. I think there are a lot of
people in the state of Tennessee who love basketball. I
think there's a lot of people in the state of
Indiana who love basketball, State of North Carolina, normal middle
(25:51):
of the road people who are going to be very
turned off by what they saw the NBA doing in China. Now,
if they get a great, unbelievable series and they get
let's say, I don't know the two best teams that
could possibly play, and I don't even know who those
teams are right now, but they get Lebron in the finals,
and they get Lebron against somebody from the East who's valid,
maybe the strength of that overall series could matter. But
(26:14):
I do think they've lost people on the fringes who
are otherwise gonna watch Netflix, or who are otherwise gonna
watch Amazon Prime or the latest HBO show, and they'll say,
screw it, I'm not gonna watch the n b A.
I didn't like the way they responded when they were
confronted with an issue in China. As an American, I
don't find the league response correct. I do think that
can impact at the fringes one or two, notch it,
(26:36):
I don't. I think I think they're h I think
their risk is the Rockets because they happen to be
good and uh and I do think that that China
will as things have the potential to get better. I
think they're going to continue to blame the Rockets and yeah,
is not going to help. So I think they're you know,
(26:57):
from a from a world standpoint, I don't think Americans
are going to feel effected by this, even the casual
fans on the fringes. I think that their concern has
to continue to be China, and if the Rockets are
really good and they're in the finals, it will hurt
them more. That's an interesting point that the Rockets are
there that the China might not even show it. Yes, right,
(27:19):
I mean now that could be a legitimate that could
be a legitimate concern if the Rockets are in the
NBA finals, and they could be if Russell, rest Brook
and James Harden go, well, um, what did you think
about the NBA? I guess it ended up being the
Houston Rockets cutting off questions now for players about China.
Do you think that will become commonplace? You know, I
(27:43):
think that, you know, with with Steve Kerr, I mean,
do we believe I'm not sure. I believe that Steve
Kerr doesn't have enough information. I do not believe that
he's too smartly. Yes, I do believe. I do believe
that players don't have enough information. Um and and so
(28:05):
I think they're legitimately worried about you know, what they're
gonna say or you know, and so they cut them off,
just like Clemson doesn't allow their football players to be
on social media. The same thing. Um, So yeah, it's
not it's not ideal, but I would rather than do
(28:26):
that than the Steve curR answer of you know, I
got to learn more, because I think they really do
need to learn more before saying something. Be sure to
catch live editions about kick the Coverage with Clay Travis
week days at six am Eastern three am Pacific. We're
talking to Darren Ravelle. By the way, go follow him
on Twitter at Darren Velle Love following him. We've known
each other for a long time. We don't always agree,
(28:47):
but that's one of the great things about living in America.
We don't have to on every single subject. So, uh,
it would not have this show in China. Would not
have this show in China. Yes, in America. Now though Philadelphi,
you protesters chanting free Hong Kong escorted out of the arena.
Wells Fargo in d C. Last night, protesters show up
(29:08):
to support Hong Kong kicked out. Now they're Chinese teams
playing against American teams, So that's what's going on. How
much does the NBA have to be concerned that a
calculated attempt to make the NBA the focal point of
all protests could occur among activists in the United States
now because of the way the situation in China has
played out. Concerned, They do have to be concerned absolutely
(29:32):
that the NBA is just the right place to protest, because,
as you know, protesters go where they can be most effective,
can be heard the most. No, they're gonna get kicked out.
So listen. Having watched the video in Washington, Um, you
know the security guards were definitely told about this. I'm
not sure that that the Wizards or anyone was thinking
(29:53):
about it. I think the NBA has been so busy
in China that they haven't figured out, you know, how
to put everything together. But the NBA has a group
called Team Bow, which is essentially all the teams are
competing against each other, but they all share information. And
it's better than any other major league out there. And
I expect them to share information and and probably you know,
(30:16):
just do the best they can. And and probably and
I think that might mean allowing them, you know, because
if once you allow them to hold signs, and there's
not the video, the home video, you know, the cell
phone of the guy getting his free Hong Kong signs
uh uh taken away, then you make them powerless or
(30:40):
at least diminish. It's right, they need to conflict in
order to create a lot of attention. But the downside
is the downside is if these games are being streamed
into Hong Kong, I mean into China and into Hong
Kong and everywhere else, then the Chinese censors may well
say we can't have Chinese games airing here, and less
(31:00):
the n b A is going to be cutting out
the signs before it arrives to us. But how do
you do that with a live sporting event. The reason
why I bring it up is, you know this, they
will edit all different sorts of movies, right like the
Newest Avengers. They'll take out a couple of minutes that
they decide offends Chinese viewership, but they have the opportunity
to view that in advance with live sports. This seems
(31:20):
like it could be a real challenge to the NBA's
China partnership. If people underneath the baseline are allowed to
hold free Hong Kong signs up or sitting courtside, how
in the world do you handle that when somebody goes
to try to save a ball out of bounds and
the camera naturally follows the player and there's four people
in a row holding up free Hong Kong signs on
(31:42):
the front row. Right, Well, well listen, let me in
with this. Okay, this is I think this is the
most complex situation we've ever had in sports that an
executive of league has ever had to deal with. Okay,
it's when you look at Donald Sterling, there was one
choice to make. Um. Yeah, Pete Roselle made the wrong
(32:04):
decision with JFK when he got assassinated and going out
and playing games. And that's but there are so many
complexities to this. If Adam Silver sees the business, he's
being heartless, gutless, unethical. Uh. If the players don't talk,
they're losing their authenticity. They don't you now don't trust
them about caring about anything other than battles that they
(32:27):
can always win. Um. So this is gonna be from
a from a journalist standpoint, this is gonna be really
really interesting to cover and from a human standpoint too.
I mean, what happens is a player going to go
out on a limb this year, an NBA player when
things die down and it's not just basketball. Is a
(32:48):
team going to try to say all questions are about
basketball this year? Okay, fine, then we're not going to
talk about the team charity or what the guys doing
off the court. So there's so many tentacles for this
that uh, it's it is just going to be so
fascinating to cover this, And I think her people are
going to be challenged. Executives, team executives are going to
(33:09):
be challenged. There is there is more to do off
the court now than on the court. And um, we've
never seen anything like this. Last question for you, how
does the NBA respond if a player writes free Hong
Kong on their sneakers or a player wants to come
out in a free Hong Kong T shirt like they
allowed other UH players to make statements about police brutality
(33:34):
and whatnot. What do they do? Does the NBA have
to implement a policy here? Do you think somebody challenges
the you know the basically right now, what appears to
be almost an agreed upon silence on this issue. Will
someone challenge it? And if some what it on how
much the NBA you know, wants this business? It really does?
It depends on whether Adam Silver wanted the business, did
(33:59):
not want a backdown, wanted to play, wanted to say
that China will still play, will agree to your rules.
But you know, obviously China is not going to want
those signs or those those statements on shirts for pregame
or anything like that for warm up um or on
a shoe that is played during the game. You know,
so I think that they're gonna they'll revisit it, they'll
(34:22):
figure it out, But I totally expect there to be
some sort of formal policy that Adam Silver is not
going to care if it gets out. They did they
people didn't talk about the fact that, you know, the
NBA clearly put a quote of silence on these players.
But I think, you know, coming out, we're gonna we're
gonna see what's behind the curtain. And and if Adam
(34:43):
Silver doesn't want people to find out, I don't think
that's going to happen. But they're going to have to
make some really clear rules. And if you find out
that each player doesn't can't, can't have free Hong Kong
on them, and people are going to assault the NBA
again and say they're you know, they're for money and
they're green the Chinese the Chinese government's rules because they
(35:03):
just want to make money. And maybe Adam Silver is
gonna have to be okay with that. It is a
challenge that the NBA has that the NFL, for one,
doesn't have, the NHL doesn't have, and certainly Major League
Baseball because the NBA has relied so much on creating
basketball as a global brand. I'm with you. I think
this is one of the most fascinating intersections of sports politics, culture.
(35:25):
Uh and beyond that, we have ever seen, and I
certainly didn't see when the weekend started that this was
going to turn into the story that it has. Thank
you so much, Darren Ravelle for the time. I think
people are really going to enjoy this. Uh and good
luck to following the twist and turns as they continue
to emerge. Clay, I had a lot of respect for you.
Always great to come on with you. That's Darren Ravelle.
(35:46):
I'm Clay Travis. Special addition of the Wins and Losses
podcast discussing the wins and losses for the NBA as
it is dealt with China all week long. Thanks for
listening to us. If you enjoyed this one, you'll enjoy
wait a lot of others as well. Again, this has
been Winston Watson. I'm Clay Travis, and thank you for listening.
(36:06):
H
This is Wins and Losses with Clay Trevis. Clay talks
with the most entertaining people in sports, entertainment and business.
Now here's Clay Trevis. Welcome and Clay Travis so Wins
and lost his podcast. Special addition, we are reacting to
(00:24):
the NBA in China and we have got Darren Ravel
with us. Darren works at the at the What what
is the the Action Network? I was gonna say there's
too many different companies now that had to start with
an A. He's at the Action Network. Um, and uh
he is? Uh he has. We've been talking. We went
back and forth on Twitter about this. People out there
(00:45):
who haven't been paying attention. Earlier this week, Darryl Moray,
the the general manager of the Houston Rockets, and a
tweet supportive of democracy protests in Hong Kong, which is
a semi autonomous region of China. The Chinese government flipped
out over this at the same time that basically the
NBA was supposed to be having a goodwill tour and
(01:09):
everything has fallen apart since then. We are talking now.
On Thursday afternoon, they played the first preseason game between
the Lakers and the Nets, but the but China mandated
that there would be no media availabilities associated with that.
In the NBA acquiesced to those requirements. China also refused
(01:30):
to play the games in the country. You could watch
the game here in the United States on the NBA
UH network if you put it on early this morning. So, uh, Darren,
So let's let's start here. Uh. My contention is that
this is a body blow of a significant magnitude to
the NBA's over overall brand, which I believe is rooted
(01:52):
in authenticity. And the authenticity that the NBA has sold,
at least to a large percentage of its fan base
is our players are real, They say what they think.
We don't police their opinions on anything. And now the
NBA has found itself confronted with a true issue of
a substantial global nature, unlike let's say, the transgender bathroom
(02:16):
law in North Carolina, which led the team to abandon
the state of North Carolina, or something as relatively inconsequential
as the use of the word owner, which the NBA
replaced with governor. Do you believe and agree with me
that this has been a overall very bad week for
the NBA. Let's let let let me just start by
(02:37):
going going back a little bit. Daryl Morey is the
GM of the Houston Rockets. He's not the GM of
the Memphis Grizzlies or another team. The reason why that's
important is because Killman for Tita just bought this team
for two point two billion dollars, and probably ten percent
(02:57):
of that valuation is based on the fact that through
Yao Ming, the Rockets became the most relevant team in
China more than their relevance deserves, more than they deserve
at all. Um, And so what percent? So let me
cut you off there. What percentage of that two point
one billion dollar valuation of the Houston Rockets do you
think was attributable to their overall brand value in China? Uh?
(03:22):
At least ten, I would think, I would think more.
But two million dollars you think connected? Yes? Yes? And
if you were to tell me that, um, there's going
to be horrible relations for five years and the Houston
Rockets at least for five years with no foreseeable future
of returning to where they were before, I would say that,
(03:44):
you know, it's three hundred or five hundred million dollars off. Um, Yes,
this is a this was a Collot. This is this
was a horrible, horrible week for the NBA, So let's
put that in context. But the fact that it was
the rockets and the fact that the guy who kicked
down the door, Yao Ming, had to make a comment,
(04:06):
he couldn't hide because he is running the Chinese Basketball Association,
So it could not have been worse. From that standpoint,
What do you think Darryl Moray was thinking? Do you
think he had any clue what he was stepping into
when he decided to tweet? Why do you think he
decided to do it? Okay, So I've done about a
(04:26):
hundred fifty thousand, hundred sixty thousand tweets. I don't know
if this is the same for you for nearly a
hundred nearly a hundred thousand of tweets, by the way,
for me, so so for the five absolutely horrific tweets
that I put out, there is one thing in common.
I was not a focused. My twins were crying. I
(04:50):
was doing something else. I was watching something else. I
truly Daryl Morey's a smart guy. He's an m I
t he's a Northwestern guy. I mean I think that
in the moment, whether he was drinking or whether he
was just not a focused He knew what he was saying,
(05:10):
but did not did not digest the fact in the
moment for some reason. How perilous this was, be sure
to catch live editions about kicked the coverage with Clay
Travis week days at six am Eastern three am Pacific.
And it's interesting because we talked about this a little bit. Uh,
I know, we went back and forth on Twitter. I
(05:31):
believe about this the most expensive tweets that have ever
been sent. Elon Musk had his issue with the Securities
and Exchange Commission when he said he was going to
take Tesla private for four hundred and twenty dollars and
then later had to pay a huge fine and I
think give up its chairmanship or a part of the
governing structure of Tesla as a result. You had Roseanne
lose her show over her attack on Valerie Jarrett. You
(05:56):
have had Donald Trump certainly has sent tweets that have
either hurt the market cap or impacted the overall start market.
A gender Kardashian correct, there was about Snapchat that wasn't
overall like basically, I think I can't remember if it
was Kylie Jenner or Kendall Jenner and Frankly, I can't
tell the difference between the two, but one of them
said that Snapchat is is like the new design on
(06:19):
Snapchat is awful, and it was a cataclysmic hit to
their stock. Nike obviously announces Kaepernick has a drop, then
goes back up. But the difference, I would say in
general with those is the stock market value, you know,
like adjust every single day, So unlike those where they
can bounce around with stock prices and everything else, this
(06:39):
has more of I think an impactful and potentially lingering
resonance than some of those do. Would you agree? Yes?
And you know, I want to go back because I
want to be able to answer your question. You know,
you talked about authenticity now. I never I still thought
it was the Jordan's I wasn't tricked by their social
(07:03):
warrior status. I thought it was very much the Jordan
Republican Dubai shoes too. Um and I do agree that
it looks shallow to not engage in this when you
have issues of human rights and lack of freedom. But
(07:26):
you know what it's it's the truth is and they
can never say this. It's not important to them. It's
not important to their lives, and that's why they can't
talk because and maybe that's horrible, but it's they can't.
They can't. They can relate to police brutality and wear
shirts I can't breathe, but they cannot relate to a
(07:51):
place that is not free and where you're persecuted and
thrown in jail for things in America that they just can't.
They can't relate or they can't relate that quickly. And
so I think they're being honest by not saying anything.
But I also do think because if they said something,
if it was what you really wanted to hear, it
(08:13):
be really ugly. But I do think it is a
shot against their authenticity. The question is what does what
is that worth? And I don't think it's worth that much. Okay,
I disagree. I think it's worth substantiable. Let's take away
from the individual players for a moment and let me
just say I think the NBA opened itself up to
(08:33):
this accusation of hypocrisy, and Adam Silver did as well.
And this is not something that's unique to me. I
wrote this three years ago, and it's not something that's
unique just to the NBA either. It annoys me to
no end when people decide to say, like I think
there were a couple of rock bands, for instance, that said, Hey,
I'm not going to play in North Carolina because I
(08:54):
disagree with the transgender bathroom bill in the North Carolina
state legislature. But those same rock stars or rappers or
whoever they may be, are willing to go to all
sorts of kleptocracies around the world and play concerts in
those places, and they don't care at all about the
fact that they're playing in front of an audience that
(09:15):
doesn't have the same basic human rights that they take
for granted as Americans. I would say, you are you are?
You are believing that there should be consistency, and I
think in life there is not consistency. You know there
when when something is closer to you, even geographically, you
(09:36):
feel different about it. I would suggest that this is
that what I think is happening here is I never
bought into this woke universe of response. I thought it
was something that to me, if you're going to be
considered brave, and I've said this for a long time,
you have to risk life, liberty, or at minimum something
(09:56):
very dear to you, in order to be truly called brave, right,
I think that's a air definition of bravery. The NBA
and the players have not risked anything by the stances
that they have taken in the United States related to politics.
I would say that for Steve Kerr, I would say
that for Greg Popovich, I would say that for Lebron James,
I would say that for Adam Silver. They have gone
(10:18):
after targets that are not in the wheelhouse of their
existing fan base. If they are going to do that,
and again, I I am of the ILK that believes that. Ultimately,
if the NBA had just said all along, hey, we're
about trying to make as much money as a capitalistic
organization as is possible, then I think people like me
(10:38):
would not have called them out on hypocrisy. I don't
mind that, right. I understand what Disney is trying to
do with China. I understand what Apple is trying to
do with China. All these big multinational global brands that
have to somehow in order to make money off China,
acquiesced to some Chinese directives. I don't think it's smart
as a as a political matter, but that's for governmental relations.
(11:02):
I don't really get involved with individual brands, but you're you're,
you're basically upset with the self branding and the societal
branding of the NBA players as social warriors at whatever cost. Yeah,
and well, because there is no cost to them. I
mean they they have, you know, been praised and and
(11:25):
and and gotten treated as if they are incredibly brave
for stances that they have to get required that require
no risk. And what happens for its icons. We we
we overestimate, you know, we we talk about how charitable
they are, and you know, and then you look behind
it and you see that, you know, they don't give
(11:45):
any money to their own foundations, and we prop these
guys up on a pedestal for everything that they do.
I think there's some truth to that, but I think
there's a different level that the NBA received, And I
think the media was culpable here. And I do think
I'm curious if you agree with me here the NBA,
the media that covers the NBA, if you compare them
(12:05):
in general to the media that covers the NFL, is
much less contentious and much more akin to a cheerleader
group than it is to a rigorous and why do
you think that agreed and that and that's that's that's
also because they've they've had practice the NFL. I think
the media has feels less pressure on itself because Roger
(12:29):
Goodell is universally hated but much. I think before this,
I think Adam Silver before this was you know, lauded
and loved and and seen as smart. But I think
that's because to a large extent, the people who cover
the NBA agree with the social causes that NBA players
(12:49):
and owners in the league has its best. No. I
think it's because they're more comfortable listen. When when you're
a reporter, you have to know when to take your
shots and if taking your shots are worth it, taking
shots at Roger Goodell or the establishment of the NFL
or the union. It's easier to recover from taking those
(13:11):
shots because you have the whole world behind you. It's
chicken or egg. I mean, it's like you know you have.
It's because there has been so much negative and the
public agrees with the negative. That's what frees up NFL
reporters from being able to criticize in the way that
NBA reporters don't. I think that's interesting, but to me,
(13:34):
the purpose of having a free and independent media is
having media members who are brave enough not to worry
about who's lining up behind them. I can maybe I'm
rare in this, but I can legitimately say when I
do my radio show, or I do my periscope, Facebook,
or I write my columns, I never think are people
going to agree with what I say or what I write?
(13:56):
I think, do I believe? But but don Clay, you
don't have to show up at the arena every day.
You don't have to you don't have to show your face.
But but that goes to the point, that goes to
the point of yeah, that's what makes you you, but
it also makes you more comfortable by the virtue of
the fact that you don't have to show your face. Well,
(14:18):
but most of those most of those guys are useless.
I mean this goes to a larger context of what's
the value of most people who cover a team? Not much?
I mean, right, like if you took out if you
knocked out of the people who show up for a
press conference and only allowed two percent of people to
(14:38):
ask the questions. And I've been arguing this for a
long time. The value of the press conference would be
higher because there's a huge percentage of people there that
provide actually nothing of value based on their attendance there.
So look, if if Lebron James said, Hey, I'll have
a sit down with you and you can ask me
any question under the sun, I would do it. He
(15:00):
wouldn't do it because I would actually ask him questions
that he doesn't want to answer, I always say on
my radio. And he believes, and he believes as all
these NBA stars believed that they should be afforded the
right to pick and choose the questions. Now, now, I've
never said that they were social warriors. I never said
(15:21):
that they deserved more than I thought they deserved that society.
That's not my problem. But yes, I mean they're they're
going to pick and choose because they feel like they
deserve the right to do that, because they've achieved basketball
success and they don't want anything to compromise them. Yeah.
I don't think that there's any danger to them though,
is my point? Like, if Lebron James came out and
(15:43):
truly wanted to be the Mohammed Ali of our generation
as opposed to lazy people who haven't studied history, comparing
him to Mohammed Ali. He could say it's more profitable
to pick and choose, correct. I understand that. But if
Lebron James truly wanted to be Mohammed Ali, he could
come out and say, I believe all one point four
billion people in China should have the same basic human
(16:07):
rights that we have in America, and the fact that
they don't is wrong. It's a very simple statement, but
it worth eight million dollars a year for him not
to say that. Okay, but he's got hundreds of millions
of dollars, and so Mohammad Ali risked his entire career
in order to become Muhammad Ali. I mean, he took
a stand on a contentious social issue that a lot
(16:28):
of people disagreed with. For all of Lebron's talk about
how brave he is and how active he is, what's
the most controversial thing that Lebron James has ever said.
I'm taking my talents to South Beach. It was entirely
a decision rooted in sports. He's never said anything remotely
comparable to I ain't got no quarrel with the Viet
(16:50):
Com which is what Muhammad Ali said. You do have
to be fair, you do have to compare generations. So like,
would Muhammad Ali be who he was if the endorsements
were dangling the way they're dangling, And that's a great question.
Maybe maybe he never would have. Like Lebron is a
(17:10):
step up from Jordan's. Jordan wouldn't talk about anything, So
Lebron's a step up. He'll talk about things he's comfortable with,
but he will talk. Jordan wasn't comfortable with talking about
Ain't Steven I would? I would disagree, And that's an
interesting argument. You can argue that Jordan was a step
Lebron's a step up from Jordans. I actually disagree. I
think what Jordan represented was the goal of appealing to
(17:33):
everyone with the excellence of his talents. But he only
wanted for his talents in basketball to be his calling card.
That is, to me different than Lebron, who I think
recognized that he was not going to ever reach the
six titles of Michael Jordan's or reach the elevated stature
worldwide of Michael Jordan's, and so about twelve or fourteen
(17:55):
years into his into his career, he pivoted and decided,
I'm going to try to become a figure like Muhammad
Ali more than I'm going to be a figure like
Michael Jordan's. And as a result, they give both of
these guys. You can you give these guys, both of
these guys way too much credit. I don't. I don't
think they think about their brand in that way. I
(18:17):
think Jordan's just simply said, listened up until this point
in a black man wasn't speaking to white to white
people for endorsements just didn't happen. I mean, yes, there was,
there were small endorsements. O J. J had hurts other
than O J. Who who who, as alleged by Black
(18:38):
America like made himself white to do it. Um. But
but yeah, but yeah, no, and so it was enough
of a challenge to be the everyman as a black
person in five um. And and so I don't think
he wanted to screw that up. Um but I don't.
But I think there's appeal there, right because Jordan. If
(18:58):
you wanted to kind of put Jordan in that context
of becoming an everyman pitch man whose race was not
integral to his overall appeal, that was also the case
with back in that those days, Eddie Murphy, will Smith
would later take that baton Bill Cosby, certainly in The
Cosby Show, which was revolutionary in the sense that it
portrayed a black American family as not that much different
(19:21):
than a white American family. Right, You're trying to appeal
to everyone, the idea being that we, despite our differences
of race or gender, ethnicity, whatever else, actually have a
lot more in common than we do indifferent And I
think what Lebron has done is sliced and diced a
small segment of that population and said I'm gonna try
to fulfill and be the every man for this small group.
(19:44):
And I think that you may be right that it's
not a calculated decision. I tend to think there are
tons of branding people that are sitting around with these
guys trying to pitch them all day long on what
they think makes sense. Um and uh. And certainly social
media can complicate this because you have the ability to
make decisions kind of instantaneously. Um. And The idea with
social media, and I think you would agree, is that
(20:04):
authenticity matters more than anything. But if Lebron is going
to sell this idea of a quality of everybody being
on the same level of the importance of speaking truth
to power. That's kind of his brand now, right. He
certainly has basically just done what he said he would
never do, which is shut up in dribble for money. Yeah, no,
(20:24):
I I get it. I don't think I think, well,
well that makes sense. I don't think that's going to
cost him. I don't. I don't think that's going to
cost him. And the reason I said I thought Adam
Silver had a win was, you know, I do think
it was a win for for the business. And I'm
not trying to say that it was the it was
(20:45):
the right move. I just do think that, you know,
I had thought that that China wanted to win, and
I thought they'd lock him out of the arena. Known
would show up. They didn't lock him out of the arena,
and everyone showed up. Fox Sports Radio has the best
sports talk lineup in the nation. Catch all of our
shows at Fox sports Radio dot com and within the
I Heart Radio app. Search f s are to listen live.
(21:08):
I think China saying you can come play, but you
have to play by our rules, which means you can't
talk to the media, which means your players say nothing.
I think that's a win for China because it is
I mean, really, if you break it down, what actually
happened there. China told the NBA and their teams and
their biggest stars Lebron James, Adam Silver, Kyrie Irving, Anthony
Davis shut up and dribble, or you have to leave
(21:30):
our country and we're gonna money, and they did. I
think in the process of playing the game and not
walking away, I think Adam Silver felt like he had
to do what was right for business, and I think
from a business standpoint that was right. I also think
that you know, the people who I'm just I'm trying
to look at this in a non emotional way, right like,
(21:53):
just from the business standpoint, and it's hard to do
that because of what China has done to its people.
But um, I think that he did make the right
move in being able to play the actual game despite
the fact, as he said that it was not on
TV there. Um he did not leave. He did not
(22:13):
leave because he basically was saying, we want to play
for you, we want to be here, even if it
was under their terms. Um, I think that I think
it was the right move from a business standpoint, and
I was told there were people who were trying to
tell him, no, we should go, we should go, and
he was absolutely insistent that they play the game. Yeah,
(22:34):
I disagree. I think that I think they should have gone.
Here here's what I would say. You asked a good question,
what's the impact when they come back to the United States, right,
because not like they're going to stay in China for
very long. Here's where I think this could be significant
for them. I think certainly when they start to try
to speak out again. Like let's say that I don't know,
I don't know where the next All Star Game is
going to be, but let's say it could happen. It
(22:55):
wouldn't be stunning, right if in the state of Georgia,
Like you may know where the next NBA All Star
Game is gonna be. I'm just gonna pick a state, Georgia.
Let's say that Georgia has an abortion but like they
have that abortion bill that Hollywood wasn't happy about, right
or whatever you want to call it. And there was
talk about, oh, we're gonna pull our pull our resources
out of the state of Georgia because of the precedent
that they set with North Carolina. Anytime they're going into
(23:18):
a state that has a controversial political legislation in front
of it. Now people are gonna say, well, you pulled
out of North Carolina. If they decide to get involved
in that politically, the immediate response is going to be, dude,
you played games in China. You can't complain about any
existing state law anymore in the United States, no doubt,
(23:41):
There is no doubt to me that that is accurate.
That is accurate that they that they have I agree
with you, they have compromised their ability to really do
anything from a political maybe social standpoint now that you
can always bring up China. Not only that, like sorry,
(24:03):
you can line up. But the question is, I don't
think that costs them that much. That's that's where we differ. Yeah,
I'm gonna get I'm gonna get to that in a seccause.
I do think also all this conversation, every single team
that wins, are you going to go to the White
House as long as Donald Trump is there? It's a discussion.
If the Lakers win the title, let's say, and Lebron
(24:24):
James tries to make a big statement by saying, I'm
not gonna go see that bum in the White House,
meaning Donald Trump, It's not going to have any residents anymore,
because immediately, even for people who support Lebron James, they're
gonna kind of have to nod their head and say,
but dude, you were willing to go play in China,
and you shut up and you said nothing. And then
you come back into America and you take advantage of
(24:45):
freedom of speech and the fact that there's no real
danger to your brand. You look like a hypocrite. Now
you went to China, but you wouldn't go to the
White House. Now, let me also say this, You know
as well as I do, that the NBA Finals bring
in a huge audience that isn't otherwise committed to the NBA. Right,
Like the die hard NBA fan I tend to agree
(25:05):
with you is probably not going to be very impacted
by this. Right, if you have season tickets, if you
like a particular team, if you like a particular player,
you're probably going to continue. But that's a relatively small
part of the American sporting audience. In fact, if you
look at like the start of the NBA playoffs, four
or five million people might watch a big NBA playoff
game in the early rounds versus fourteen or fifteen million
(25:28):
who watch in the NBA Finals sometime up to you know,
I think what happens is those are the people the
NBA has to be concerned about. And I do think
there are a lot of part and that a lot
of people in the middle part of the country. I
live in Nashville. I think there are a lot of
people in the state of Tennessee who love basketball. I
think there's a lot of people in the state of
Indiana who love basketball, State of North Carolina, normal middle
(25:51):
of the road people who are going to be very
turned off by what they saw the NBA doing in China. Now,
if they get a great, unbelievable series and they get
let's say, I don't know the two best teams that
could possibly play, and I don't even know who those
teams are right now, but they get Lebron in the finals,
and they get Lebron against somebody from the East who's valid,
maybe the strength of that overall series could matter. But
(26:14):
I do think they've lost people on the fringes who
are otherwise gonna watch Netflix, or who are otherwise gonna
watch Amazon Prime or the latest HBO show, and they'll say,
screw it, I'm not gonna watch the n b A.
I didn't like the way they responded when they were
confronted with an issue in China. As an American, I
don't find the league response correct. I do think that
can impact at the fringes one or two, notch it,
(26:36):
I don't. I think I think they're h I think
their risk is the Rockets because they happen to be
good and uh and I do think that that China
will as things have the potential to get better. I
think they're going to continue to blame the Rockets and yeah,
is not going to help. So I think they're you know,
(26:57):
from a from a world standpoint, I don't think Americans
are going to feel effected by this, even the casual
fans on the fringes. I think that their concern has
to continue to be China, and if the Rockets are
really good and they're in the finals, it will hurt
them more. That's an interesting point that the Rockets are
there that the China might not even show it. Yes, right,
(27:19):
I mean now that could be a legitimate that could
be a legitimate concern if the Rockets are in the
NBA finals, and they could be if Russell, rest Brook
and James Harden go, well, um, what did you think
about the NBA? I guess it ended up being the
Houston Rockets cutting off questions now for players about China.
Do you think that will become commonplace? You know, I
(27:43):
think that, you know, with with Steve Kerr, I mean,
do we believe I'm not sure. I believe that Steve
Kerr doesn't have enough information. I do not believe that
he's too smartly. Yes, I do believe. I do believe
that players don't have enough information. Um and and so
(28:05):
I think they're legitimately worried about you know, what they're
gonna say or you know, and so they cut them off,
just like Clemson doesn't allow their football players to be
on social media. The same thing. Um, So yeah, it's
not it's not ideal, but I would rather than do
(28:26):
that than the Steve curR answer of you know, I
got to learn more, because I think they really do
need to learn more before saying something. Be sure to
catch live editions about kick the Coverage with Clay Travis
week days at six am Eastern three am Pacific. We're
talking to Darren Ravelle. By the way, go follow him
on Twitter at Darren Velle Love following him. We've known
each other for a long time. We don't always agree,
(28:47):
but that's one of the great things about living in America.
We don't have to on every single subject. So, uh,
it would not have this show in China. Would not
have this show in China. Yes, in America. Now though Philadelphi,
you protesters chanting free Hong Kong escorted out of the arena.
Wells Fargo in d C. Last night, protesters show up
(29:08):
to support Hong Kong kicked out. Now they're Chinese teams
playing against American teams, So that's what's going on. How
much does the NBA have to be concerned that a
calculated attempt to make the NBA the focal point of
all protests could occur among activists in the United States
now because of the way the situation in China has
played out. Concerned, They do have to be concerned absolutely
(29:32):
that the NBA is just the right place to protest, because,
as you know, protesters go where they can be most effective,
can be heard the most. No, they're gonna get kicked out.
So listen. Having watched the video in Washington, Um, you
know the security guards were definitely told about this. I'm
not sure that that the Wizards or anyone was thinking
(29:53):
about it. I think the NBA has been so busy
in China that they haven't figured out, you know, how
to put everything together. But the NBA has a group
called Team Bow, which is essentially all the teams are
competing against each other, but they all share information. And
it's better than any other major league out there. And
I expect them to share information and and probably you know,
(30:16):
just do the best they can. And and probably and
I think that might mean allowing them, you know, because
if once you allow them to hold signs, and there's
not the video, the home video, you know, the cell
phone of the guy getting his free Hong Kong signs
uh uh taken away, then you make them powerless or
(30:40):
at least diminish. It's right, they need to conflict in
order to create a lot of attention. But the downside
is the downside is if these games are being streamed
into Hong Kong, I mean into China and into Hong
Kong and everywhere else, then the Chinese censors may well
say we can't have Chinese games airing here, and less
(31:00):
the n b A is going to be cutting out
the signs before it arrives to us. But how do
you do that with a live sporting event. The reason
why I bring it up is, you know this, they
will edit all different sorts of movies, right like the
Newest Avengers. They'll take out a couple of minutes that
they decide offends Chinese viewership, but they have the opportunity
to view that in advance with live sports. This seems
(31:20):
like it could be a real challenge to the NBA's
China partnership. If people underneath the baseline are allowed to
hold free Hong Kong signs up or sitting courtside, how
in the world do you handle that when somebody goes
to try to save a ball out of bounds and
the camera naturally follows the player and there's four people
in a row holding up free Hong Kong signs on
(31:42):
the front row. Right, Well, well listen, let me in
with this. Okay, this is I think this is the
most complex situation we've ever had in sports that an
executive of league has ever had to deal with. Okay,
it's when you look at Donald Sterling, there was one
choice to make. Um. Yeah, Pete Roselle made the wrong
(32:04):
decision with JFK when he got assassinated and going out
and playing games. And that's but there are so many
complexities to this. If Adam Silver sees the business, he's
being heartless, gutless, unethical. Uh. If the players don't talk,
they're losing their authenticity. They don't you now don't trust
them about caring about anything other than battles that they
(32:27):
can always win. Um. So this is gonna be from
a from a journalist standpoint, this is gonna be really
really interesting to cover and from a human standpoint too.
I mean, what happens is a player going to go
out on a limb this year, an NBA player when
things die down and it's not just basketball. Is a
(32:48):
team going to try to say all questions are about
basketball this year? Okay, fine, then we're not going to
talk about the team charity or what the guys doing
off the court. So there's so many tentacles for this
that uh, it's it is just going to be so
fascinating to cover this, And I think her people are
going to be challenged. Executives, team executives are going to
(33:09):
be challenged. There is there is more to do off
the court now than on the court. And um, we've
never seen anything like this. Last question for you, how
does the NBA respond if a player writes free Hong
Kong on their sneakers or a player wants to come
out in a free Hong Kong T shirt like they
allowed other UH players to make statements about police brutality
(33:34):
and whatnot. What do they do? Does the NBA have
to implement a policy here? Do you think somebody challenges
the you know the basically right now, what appears to
be almost an agreed upon silence on this issue. Will
someone challenge it? And if some what it on how
much the NBA you know, wants this business? It really does?
It depends on whether Adam Silver wanted the business, did
(33:59):
not want a backdown, wanted to play, wanted to say
that China will still play, will agree to your rules.
But you know, obviously China is not going to want
those signs or those those statements on shirts for pregame
or anything like that for warm up um or on
a shoe that is played during the game. You know,
so I think that they're gonna they'll revisit it, they'll
(34:22):
figure it out, But I totally expect there to be
some sort of formal policy that Adam Silver is not
going to care if it gets out. They did they
people didn't talk about the fact that, you know, the
NBA clearly put a quote of silence on these players.
But I think, you know, coming out, we're gonna we're
gonna see what's behind the curtain. And and if Adam
(34:43):
Silver doesn't want people to find out, I don't think
that's going to happen. But they're going to have to
make some really clear rules. And if you find out
that each player doesn't can't, can't have free Hong Kong
on them, and people are going to assault the NBA
again and say they're you know, they're for money and
they're green the Chinese the Chinese government's rules because they
(35:03):
just want to make money. And maybe Adam Silver is
gonna have to be okay with that. It is a
challenge that the NBA has that the NFL, for one,
doesn't have, the NHL doesn't have, and certainly Major League
Baseball because the NBA has relied so much on creating
basketball as a global brand. I'm with you. I think
this is one of the most fascinating intersections of sports politics, culture.
(35:25):
Uh and beyond that, we have ever seen, and I
certainly didn't see when the weekend started that this was
going to turn into the story that it has. Thank
you so much, Darren Ravelle for the time. I think
people are really going to enjoy this. Uh and good
luck to following the twist and turns as they continue
to emerge. Clay, I had a lot of respect for you.
Always great to come on with you. That's Darren Ravelle.
(35:46):
I'm Clay Travis. Special addition of the Wins and Losses
podcast discussing the wins and losses for the NBA as
it is dealt with China all week long. Thanks for
listening to us. If you enjoyed this one, you'll enjoy
wait a lot of others as well. Again, this has
been Winston Watson. I'm Clay Travis, and thank you for listening.
(36:06):
H
Host
Clay Travis
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