May 7, 2025 • 38 mins
Catholic cardinals from around the world have gathered at the Vatican to begin the process of selecting the next Pope. Voting will take place in the Sistine Chapel, with ballots continuing in succession until any candidate secures two-thirds of the available votes. How long do you think it will take to select the next leader of the Catholic Church? Boston College Professor of Theology and Religious Studies, Thomas Groome joined us to discuss the papal conclave.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
It's Night Side with Dan Ray. I'm WBZ Coustin's me video.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Today the papal conclave is underway. It's actually our tomorrow.
It's Thursday morning in Rome. They're about six hours ahead
of us. And at some point that conclave will be
renewed today. And there was one indication that there was
some sort of a vote taken inside the Sistine Chapel,
(00:29):
but the requisite two thirds vote for one of the
cardinals in the room was not achieved, and so therefore
the smoke that showed was black smoking, not white smoke.
And with us now to talk about all things Catholic
and all things papal. Conclavish is a friend of many years,
(00:51):
Professor Thomas Groom. He teaches at Boston College. Tom Groom,
Professor Groom, Groom, welcome back to Nightside. How are you?
Speaker 3 (01:00):
Oh? Thank you Dad, And only for an old friend
like yourself, so I'd stay up this late and I
sat on a Wednesday night. Well, I'm delighted, I'm deli
to join you and blessing.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Well, thank you, thank you, thank you. This has got
to be a very interesting time in our lifetimes. We're
not that far apart in age. There have been a
few fewer popes than presidents. There's no two term limit
on popes. Uh, no, no eight year limit, I should say,
uh and uh, we're about now to have the next
(01:34):
pope of our lifetime, and it's going to be certainly
an interesting process. I was listening to some reports today.
I Uh, I did realize that they were back in
the in the bad old days, and we're talking I
guess in the eleventh century. Uh, they did what is
(01:56):
the the forerunner of a paper conclave, and it took
three years before they could come up.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
With yes, that's right with the winner, and they eventually
then they eventually had to lock them up and give
them only bread and water, And that was the only
way that they finally came to a decision. The local
people were so sick and tired of them sponging on
them that they eventually they locked the doors and they
(02:22):
gave them bread and water, and they came to a decision.
But it did take about three years. I don't think
we're will do that this time here. But actually, when
you look at the conditions that they're living in, you
realize that these are cardinals of the church. Meanwhile, they're
they're sleeping in little beds that looked more like you know,
(02:44):
weekend bunks on the for the scouts or something, you know,
So they're pretty humble quarters. So I think they'll move
along and come to a decision probably the next it'll
take two or three days. They very I think, from
what i've know, what we've heard before, very often the
opening the opening votes are are kind of window dressing,
you know. The people vote for each other and then
(03:07):
to pay compliments to them, you know, then they can
when they leave they say, well I got two votes
to be pope, you know. But there's a lot of that.
But I think eventually then the third or fourth day,
they'll settle down. But I think it will take three
or four days.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
So let's talk. First of all, I have to ask you,
I'm sure you must have seen the movie Conclave.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
Yes, Dan, it's very very good, very helpful. There's little
pits and pieces that you could you could quibble with,
but they basically portrayed it fair and square, and that's
pretty much.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
I'm not gonna spoiled spoil the ending, but.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
The end. The ending was a bit of a surprise.
But but I've been hopeful. I thought, well, we might
have going forward.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Yeah, well I don't think so, but but you almost,
I mean you almost could tell if you were thinking
what the ending was going to be. I mean, there
was a lot of what I would call foreshadowing in
that movie Let's Hope, Let's Hope. So so, so let's
let's talk about you have been a theologian for your
(04:15):
entire life. You served as a Catholic priest and at
one point decided that you were you wanted to go
in a different direction and uh, and you married the
love of your life and uh and very very successful
uh as as a teacher and as a professor.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
And it is the only thing I knew I knew
how to do.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Yeah. Well, the point is, though that I will rely
upon you to get a sense of where we're headed.
The church obviously went for the first time, at least
in my recollection for an Eastern European with John Paul two. Yes,
(05:03):
they then kind of came back to to to the
more traditional Benedict who was the only pope to resign, and.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
Then they was in Germany. He was German. Remember then,
you know he still was an Italian. Because the pattern
through the eighteen nineteenth and even in the twentieth century,
was to elect an Italian because I had the majority
in the conclave, whereas at least Benedict was, you know,
not from Italy, and he was breaking open new ground.
He was the first German in a long time to
be elected pope.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Yeah, and then of course they really surprised first person
from the Western hemisphere of Pope Francis.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
Uh, the first.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Ed a Jesuit. Yes, we have to mention that. I
was reminded of that again today by Jack Dunne of
your public your great relations department.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
And some people say, maybe the last Jesuits for another
five hundred years.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Well, let's unless they decide to make you. You're eligible
any member of the Catholic Church. I guess Mayl is eligible.
Speaker 3 (06:09):
So I think there need to be a cardinal. It
needs to be a cardinal. I've been passed over for that.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Dan.
Speaker 3 (06:15):
So yeah, oh I didn't really.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Oh, I thought it was just anyone that they could.
They could if they wanted to.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
I think you'd be Dan'd be in a day christ
bishop and then the car then.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Oh okay, fine, okay.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
Well they've always been a card I didn't I didn't
think that they were gonna get okay, But that's okay.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
So so we.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
Now know what we think to remember Dan is that
this goes back. This is the two hundred and sixty
seventh pope. There's been two hundred's in Saint Peter two
thousand years ago, there's been two hundred and sixty six pope.
So everything you can imagine about it has happened, you know.
So like there was an eighteen year old was elected
the pope back in the seventh or eighth century because
(06:55):
he was the son of the emperor, and the emperor
told him that I want my son to be the pope,
and they voted for him.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Good work if you can get it.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
But yeah, So it's amazing thing is that it has
the old Catholic theology that grace works through nature, and
so nature has been at work all along with God's
grace also has been at work. So in other words,
we've also end up with some darn good popes and
then of course a wonderful pope in Pope Francis. And
that'll be the big challenge to try to even begin
(07:24):
to replicate or or at least to approximate somebody as
wonderful and fantastic as well as Pope Prances and as
the kind of a leader that he was, and for
the whole world, not just for Catholics, but for five
Jewish friends and BUTLM friends and all kinds of non
religious friends that just taught the world of Pope France.
And so there's big shoes to fill, and the cards
(07:48):
have their work cut out for them to find another
Fancis or somebody comparable.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Well we get back, I want to talk about that.
I have some thoughts which probably are errant, but I
want to run those by you, and I want to
be able to get corrected as to how far off
base I am. But but I really I mean that honestly.
I'm also going to invite callers if they would like,
if you want to talk to someone who knows all
(08:14):
of I'm going to use the phrase inside baseball. Professor
Thomas Groom is here, and I don't want to in
any way, shape or form compare this to a baseball game.
But there's going to be some suspense, and whether it
goes into extra innings or not, we don't know. There
are supposed to be two votes in the morning tomorrow,
two votes in the afternoon of tradition holds, and at
(08:36):
that point that process might start to Winnow will have
to see how how it works out. My guest is
Professor Thomas Groom. He teaches at Boston College. He is
a theologian and someone who is deep in his knowledge
of the church. He is also, I think, as you
can tell, a huge fan of the late Pope, and
(08:58):
he's also I would say, probably you would characterize yourself
as fairly as definitely I would think of progressive and
is very No, I'm serious. There are a lot of
the issues that any new pope is going to face.
You have addressed either in writings or books. Is there
a new book with your name attached to it that
we need to write?
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Late?
Speaker 4 (09:19):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (09:19):
Dan? Well, thank you Dan, thank you, thank you. Yes.
While I've written a number of books that I wouldn't write,
and many of them I wouldn't recommendes it. I require
my students to read them, but I wouldn't recommend them.
But I one book that I would recommend, and that's
a book called Faith for the Heart. Faith for the Heart,
and in the sense it addresses the issues that the
(09:39):
Contave is addressing, like how do we make sense out
of our faith at this time and this time and place,
and obviously the horizon duck's different than the past, and
we will live into new ways of practicing our faith
and guiding our faith and trying to appropriate and bring
us along with us. And I would sustain our lives
and so on and thend us ways of believing and
(10:02):
ways of belonging and ways of behaving which all of
us need if we're to live life. Well, so it's
still as a tremendous function to play on the world stage.
And I think our Catholic faith has a tremendous richness
to it.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Yes, and of course it's been through some it's been
through some turbulent times. Uh and uh, well we can
we can hit upon that as well. But we got
to take a break. The book book Faith, Faith for
the Heart by by Professor Thomas Groom of Boston College.
This is a quick break. We'll be back in about
three minutes, and I want to talk. I want to
(10:36):
pick a profile here and define what what I think
you think will will be produced by this conclave back
on night side with Professor Thomas Groom of Boston College,
theologian of great great repute. We're delighted to have him tonight.
If you like to join the conversation, you know the
number six one seven, two, five, four ten thirty or
(10:56):
six one seven nine three thirty. The good thing about
Professor Groom is whatever you ask him, you will get
an answer, and a direct and a straight answer. We're
coming back on Nightside.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
It's Night Side with Boston's news Radio.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
We're delighted to be joined by Professor Thomas Groom. Groom
a theologian at Boston College. You've taught at BC now
many many years. How how long have you been there? Oh?
Speaker 3 (11:22):
My bes, Dan, if I teach for one more year,
because I hope to God spares me. I love talked
for fifty years at Boston College.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
You for a lot, I can remember.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
I often joked. I often joked that they hired me
just after I'd made my first Holy communion.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Well, actually, technically then you're what's called PF which means
pre pre fluty.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
Pre fluty. But actually I taught fluty. It's fascinating and
and if he was listening, I'd love to. I'd love to.
I love him to know the story. But I often say,
one of my greatest claims to fame. I thought, all
the books have written, in all the rest of it,
my greatest lam to fame. And I oftenize people, how
many of you have seen the Hail Mary pass every
hand today? And the audience goes up, and I said, well,
(12:08):
my greatest claim to fame is not the books have written.
My biggest claim is that I taught Doug Flutie to
hail Mary.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Well, listen, theology we would expect.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
I had a theology course at Boston College, So in
a sense, I taught Doug the hail Mary.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Yeah, well, absolutely great. So here's my thought. Here's my thought,
and I want to tell me how far off base
I am. My sense is that these cardinals have an
option here, They have many options, and I think they
may want to come back philosophically a little to the center.
(12:46):
I know you're a big fan of Francis, and you
know I'm more than JP two guy. Maybe bring it
back somebody who's a little bit, a little bit less
adventuresome on some of the issues that I know are
so important to you. But I'm guessing they're going to
go to another continent, maybe maybe Asia or maybe Africa. Yeah,
I think that's where the action is how far off
(13:08):
am I do you think with that.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
Analysis, Dan, I don't think you're off at all, really,
I mean from your lips to God's ears. I mean,
it could be a more moderate pope. Francis was a
bit of adventuresome, now there was. But but on the
other hand, he was on the on the social issues.
You know, there's migrants, the immigrants, the downright, the poor,
that downtrodden. I mean, his great symbol of his of
(13:30):
his pontificate to me was on a Thursday, that Holy Thursday,
going to the local prison, women's prison and washing the
feet of these young women in the prison. But he
was just extort the example of Christian love and charity
and care for the downtrodden, et cetera, which is core
to our faith. It's at the heart of our Catholic faith.
So I mean, they'll have to invite, they'll have to
(13:52):
like somebody that has those kinds of social values. Now
there might be a little more cautious I suppose that
some of the more controversial issues, but but they won't
go away. I mean, and Francis at least opened the
doors of the possibility of conversation, like the ordination of
women to the Diacton for example. Of course, if you
if you ordained them to the Acton, is to be
no theological reason for if you're declining them to priesthood
(14:14):
or episcopacy. Now, I think that conversation will continue, you know,
Carl Ronald writing thirty five forty years ago, they said
there's no theological reasons left anymore for declining ordination to
priesthood and ministry and so on to women. So there's
work to be done. But I think one of the
(14:35):
greatest contributions the legacies of for Francis will be this
notion of cinidality, when in many ways it turns that
were the church upside down instead of the hierarchy all
being in charge and telling the rest of us what
to do, it kind of turns the pyramid upside down
and the people get to participate and to have an
opinion and to share their opinion, and to have voice
(14:57):
in the church, and to participate and to bring their
to bring their gifts to the table as it were,
so rather than being a top down hierarchy. Know, the
hierarchical structure of the church will continue instead of bishops
and popes, et cetera. But I think this notion of
cynidality that France has launched in the world, and of
course it's an old idea, goes back to the very
beginnings of the church, the earliest centuries. But we're lost
(15:18):
it along the way, especially as Catholic Christians, we lost
it in some ways. Our Eastern brothers and as Orthodox
brothers and sisters were more faithful the synidality than we were.
But it's coming back, and I think that's going to
be one of the great agendas for the next pope
to continue to push for cynidality and the practice of sinidality.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Just so, professor, just so there's no confusion amongst the
the faithful. Here, Cynidality is spelled s y.
Speaker 3 (15:45):
N o d from the Greek word the week, then
you know, which literally means to work, to walk along,
or to move along together.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
Well, they talked about when you talk, when you talk
about that again, sinidality, I want to make sure that
no one thinks it's spelled si n That's all I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
Sorry, that's why, thank you.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
N No, that's all. That's all. So let's do this,
let's let's take a break. I want to expand on that.
I always want to give people a chance to call.
I would love to hear from people who are either
non Catholics or people who are interested in the process.
We can talk about the process and all of that,
(16:26):
the history of this process which will produce the two
hundred and sixty seventh Pope in the history of the
Catholic Church. I think it's really interesting the amount of
attention that the American networks are giving to the papal
to the Papal conclave, because they are treating it only
what twenty five percent of their audience, probably Catholic. I'm
(16:51):
guessing that we have about sixty to seventy million Catholics
in America. I don't know that they would do this
when they there is ahead of any other religion in
the process of being elected or appointed, and that's to
me fascinating. I want to get your comment on that,
(17:13):
why in your opinion, and I also want to give
people an opportunity to ask you any questions. I mean,
you are somebody who believes that the church needs to modernize.
Whether people agree or or disagree, this is a church.
This is no longer the Catholic Church of the nineteen fifties.
(17:33):
It's now the Church of the twenty first century, and
there have been changes, and there are folks in the Church,
of which Professor Groom is one, that feel that the
changes must continue or if the church doesn't grow, it
will die. It's growing in other parts of the world,
and I want to make people understand that as well.
(17:55):
We'll get to all of that, I promise in your
phone call six one, seven, two, four, ten thirty, six months,
seven nine thirty, feel free join the conversation. That's why
Professor Groom is staying up late. He's gonna have to
get up early tomorrow morning because the Rome is six
hours ahead of us, and by time six o'clock in
the morning rolls around, it to be almost noontime in Rome.
(18:17):
So we very much appreciate him staying with us tonight,
but he will be gone by eleven o'clock. I could
talk to him all night long. This fascinating intellectual and theologian.
Back on Nightside right.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
After this, It's Night Side with Dan Ray on w
Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
I'm joined by Boston College Theology Professor Thomas Groom. Professor Groom,
I am delighted, but somewhat surprised at the amount of
attention live coverage that not only the cable networks, but
the three major networks ABC, CBS, NBC have given to
(18:58):
not only the passing Pope princess, but the process now
by which his success will be chosen. Are you surprised
by that or no?
Speaker 3 (19:07):
Well, I think no, not really, Dan in the sense
that well, yes, indeed it is surprising and gratifying in
a way, but I think some of it is the
the legacy of Pope Friences already emerging, that he really
won the hearts of the world. He was a pope
for everybody, and I think lots of people from all traditions,
especially people with any sense of social justice, any sense
(19:30):
of compassion, any sense of the rights of the downtrodden.
And he here for the environment, I mean, his passion
for trying to save our environment before we destroy it
and poison ourselves was exemplary and extraordinary in a gift
of the world, not just the Catholic faith. Now, you
know he's our pope and revere him as such, and
our leading teacher, etc. Et cetera. But I have lots
(19:52):
of friends from other traditions, and no tradition that deeply
admired the kind of values he was championing, and see
in our present political assignus. And so I think people
are hoping that maybe these Catholics can come up with
another pope like Francis that would do the same kind
of leadership on the world stage. Now, he'd also need
to be the pope of the Catholic Church, and of
(20:13):
course you will be. But it's a bigger role than
just for the Catholic Church.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
But that that isn't that the inherent conflict in the
sense that the criticism of Francis came often from the
folks who were perhaps pushing him a little further on
things like gay marriage and and to what to what
level should the church go women as priests. You know,
(20:39):
he held the line on many of those issues. It's
easy to talk about, you know, being a good steward
of God's green earth. I mean, look, you get into
the whole climate change and what do you do about it.
That's where where the water gets choppy. But but I
don't know anybody who wants to destroy the.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
Planet, you know, don't want to take precautions to preserve us.
I mean, there are people who are happy to exploit
it and pretend that there is no crisis and there
is no environmental challenge.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
Well, I think that with I think that within some sides,
with all due respect, professor, there are some who would say, Okay,
you know, a little bit of soul, a little bit
of this, but we need to bring in some nuclear
or whatever, and and then people kind of it becomes
sort of you talk about cafeteria Catholics, it also is
cafeteria issues. Like you know, so if we could just
(21:31):
do it with soul and just to the wind, that
would be great, but you have to have something more
than that, and then you get the question of of
I'm just saying I think I would like to assume
that that there's nobody who wants to destroy the earth,
and that there's and I'd like to assume that there's
nobody who really wants to use nuclear weapons. But obviously
we have to be concerned about those sorts of issues.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
Yeah, And I'm just saying that that whenever I talk
to you, I get excited because I think you have
a real good sense of where the church is going.
But I also think that the church has has its uh,
it's it's it's religious. I'm going to use the word
religious ideology that that that any pope, uh is he
(22:18):
cont straight too far from that? And there are people,
there are people. Yeah, that's and that's the balance that
they have to that that needs to be struck. Go ahead,
I didn't I don't mean to dominate.
Speaker 3 (22:29):
It has to be no matter what they do, it
has to be faithful to the tradition. I mean, we're
all we're all our calls to give our religions to
the Creed, you know, to the niceeing Creed and the
confession of faith we make there and you know, to
Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior and so on,
and the church is a sacrament of God's salvation of
the world, et cetera, et cetera. So that, I mean,
(22:49):
the common faith is there, but as we implement it,
as we expanded out in this post nuclear age, and
it's this, you know, it's posts almost everything you know,
postmodern post God knows. It's a new day. There's one
theologian that writes about the afternoon of Christianity and that
in a sense, his proposed is that the afternoon won't
(23:11):
be quite like the morning. Uh. Now, they'll still be
faith and and you know, deep faith, but some of
the rules and regulations and structures and so on that
it may have served as well at some time in
a different contexts and ages and cultures. But it'll keep evolving.
If the faith is to if it's to grow, and
(23:32):
if it's to continue, it will have to be remain
vital I continue to push out into new horizons. I
think that's where That's where Francis was such a leader,
not just for Catholics, but for all people of goodwill?
Speaker 2 (23:44):
Is lebis? Is there an inherent conflict here in the
sense that the church is doing well in different parts
of the world. It's not doing well in Europe, it's
not doing as well in the United States as it
once did. We can, I think we can agree upon that.
And it's doing well in South America, it's doing well
(24:05):
in Africa. Yes, yeah, So the question is here's my question.
My question is a lot of the conveniences of the
West electricity and and and air conditioning, all of which
on climate change, there's there's there's there's sort of that
that argument how much air conditioning? How much electricity can
(24:29):
we use before we're overusing it? Yet there's parts of
the world where the church is not doing well, where
there is no electricity or there is no air conditioning.
So as they come into the modern world, what conflict
do they have to deal with in terms of the
creature comforts of the world versus what the church requires.
(24:51):
Do you know where I'm trying to go with this question?
Speaker 3 (24:52):
Yeah? I do, then, And it's a great question, and
it's a better question that I've been asked in a
long time. And I'm not sure I can give in
adequate answer to it, but I'm going to give it
a kind of a simplistic response to what you're saying.
The heart of our faith is Jesus of Nazareth, and
I mean Jesus of Nazareth, the carpenter who walked the
roads of Galilee. Now our Christian faith we also believe
(25:15):
he was the Son of God and the second person
of blessed Trinity, and the divine presence in human history,
in our Lord and Savior, et cetera, et cetera. But
the Catholic faith has ape France has led the way
with this. If you were to say, what was it
the heart and center and soul of Francis's pontificate. I
would say Jesus. Now, so that's because he was a Jesuit.
He's a society of Jesus. But that emphasis that Catholics
(25:37):
have in some ways rediscovered this, the emphasis on the
historical Jesus and the values he stud for and the
truths he proclaimed, that the lifestyle he lived, and his
greatest commandment that the only way we can love God
is by loving our neighbor as ourselves. And I was hungry,
gave me to eat. I was thirsty, you gave me
to drink. God will not say there was a hungry
(25:57):
person one time in your feed them, but rather I
was hungry be to eat. I mean, it's a very
radical gospel that Jesus left us. Now, there's much more
to our faith than just the gospels, you know what
I mean, whether it's two thousand years since then and
the evolution of our faith, et cetera. And yet there's
something that France has caused was rather amazing when he
called us back to the historical Jesus and to look
again at the pattern that the values he lived. And
(26:20):
you know, he was constantly giving out bread to people.
I mean, there's there's only two there's only two miracles
reported six times in the Gospel. One is the miracle
of the Resurrection and the other is the miracle of
the loaves and fishes. It's in all four Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke,
and John, and twice in Matthew, twice in the Mark
Jesus multiplying loaves, four loaves, five love, seventh fish whatever,
to cure thousands, and to heal thousands and thousands of people,
(26:43):
and to cure the sick among them, et cetera. And
that's that kind of Jesus. I mean, that's the one
that calls us to the depths and to the deep
commitment of our faith. And now, as they said, there's
more to our faith than just saying Jesus. But Pope
Francis has done that was what I think. It's a
great legacy to return us and to more refocus us
more deliberately. Uh not on Thomas Aquinas or Augustin or
(27:06):
somebody or a gat theologians, which we spend a lot
of time doing, but rather to begin our focus on Jesus.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
I would I would argue in a in a in
a polite way that the American economic system, which can
be tough rugged individualism, capitalism, whatever, also has produced more
food for more people, and not only in America but
(27:35):
in different parts of the world. Uh that I'm not
sure that that that Francis would would look at maybe,
you know, unbridled capitalism. As many of us in America,
we look at it as something that is good because,
as you know, I think it was President Kennedy said,
a rising tide lives all boats. And I think that's
that's that's the rising tide of America that that hopefully
(27:58):
is going to help other kind tries learn to feed
more people and to be more successful. That's I don't
know if there's an inherent conflict there or if it's
complimentary Tom, that's I professor.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
Hopefully it can be complimentary there.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
Yes, Okay, let me take a very quick call here
and we'll take some more after the break, but I'm
going to get to Jennifer, who's been holding on from
Yarmouth Port. Jennifer, your own professor Tom Broom of Boston College,
go right ahead.
Speaker 4 (28:30):
Okay, Well, I just have one very quick question. How
many cardinals are actually voting?
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Okay, it's one hundred and thirty nine. Would you please
call him back for us. I was not. I hope
he didn't get disconnected, but please call him back. It's
one hundred and thirty nine cardinals, Jennifer, who vote and
in order to I think the number is one hundred
and thirty nine, and the number that are needed to
(28:57):
elect is two thirds of that, which I believe is
something like eighty nine when I did my math.
Speaker 4 (29:05):
Okay, Jennifer nominated for the Pope? Do you get nominated?
You know?
Speaker 2 (29:12):
Jennifer, hold off for one second. Did we lose Jennifer? Now,
what's going on with our phones? Jennifer? Yeah, Jennifer, please
call back. Professor. You dropped off on us, and I
think we got a little problem with our phones here.
Jennifer was on the line. She started to ask me
(29:33):
some questions that I wanted to defer to you. The
She wanted to know how many cardinals I told her
that are eligible to vote. I think it's one hundred
and thirty nine, if I'm not mistaken.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
One hundred and thirty three. Actually, Dan, if you didn't
show up and we're sick, okay, thirty three.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
So now the two thirds of that is going to
be probably somewhere around eighty nine. Okay, eighty nine. I
was right on that number. Okay, Jennifer has rejoined us.
Let's do this, Let's take a break, Let's get our
phones right, and we'll come back with Professor Thomas Groom
of Boston College, who's a Jesuit theologian. And Jennifer, thank
you for calling back. We didn't get you off our phone.
(30:10):
We're giving us a little bit of trouble. We'll get
everything all set and we'll come back on Nightside right
after this.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
So you're on night Side with Dan Ray on WA
Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
We're going to go back to the phones and keep
our fingers crossed. Jennifer, we got you back here. We
just lost Tom Groom here. Something's going on with the phones.
Please bring Professor Groom back as quickly as you can. Jennifer,
I don't know what's going on with the phones. Can
you hear me?
Speaker 4 (30:38):
I can can you hear me?
Speaker 2 (30:40):
Yes? We can, And I believe that Professor Groom is
ready to join us. So you go right ahead. We
have Professor Groom on the line. Go ahead, Jennifer. What's
your question from my guest?
Speaker 4 (30:49):
Oh? Okay, so you had said that there were one
hundred and somebody nine people that are actually voting.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Is that one undred?
Speaker 2 (30:55):
Professor Groom corrected me. One hundred and thirty three cardinals
are present, and so they comprised the conclave, and that
means I think it's eighty nine that will be necessary
the two thirds majority. But go ahead, you ask your
question directly of Professor Groom. He can hear you.
Speaker 4 (31:11):
Okay, So how many how many people are actually vying
for the pope position? How many of those people are
in their running?
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Okay, well, professor, go right ahead, professor.
Speaker 3 (31:22):
So technically all one hundred and thirty three of them
are eligible, and even if it would be possible for
them to reach outside of the conclave and I'm appointed
archbishop or a bishop, they could easily raise somebody to
the level that would be unusual, and it wouldn't be
you know, with no precedent recently for in the recent centuries.
So it's more more than likely that one of the
(31:44):
one hundred and thirty three cardinals that are there, one
of them will be selected. You know, it's it's probably
ninety nine to percent likely. And now so that they
have to get eighty nine votes, as Dan said, or
eighty nine positive votes and the point is of the
one hundred and thirty three that are voting Paul France
is a point at one hundred and eight of them.
(32:05):
In other words, four fifth of them were appointed by Francis.
So the assumption is that most people make is that
UH have a similar sentiment to poor Francis, that he
would have chosen people of like mind to himself, you know,
within reason. I'm sure there'll be lots of the agreements
and disagreements, but that generally speaking, there are church people
who would be in the mold of Francis. So I
(32:27):
would be fairly confident that the next pope will continue
the same style and a lot of the a lot
of the typical The central agenda of that was the
pontificate of poor Francis.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
So then the question, the question that Jennifer answer.
Speaker 4 (32:42):
I certainly respect Francis for all of his you know,
work for the Catholic Church. I think it's just amazing, you.
Speaker 3 (32:48):
Know, and for the world and for the world.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
Yes, you know, jif Jennifer asked a question which which
I'm not sure if you can hear me, but Jennifer
asked the question of how many people I think the
verbs you use was vying for the job. This is
not a job you can really run for, correct, Professor.
Speaker 3 (33:05):
Groom, Well, Dan, look at the old Catholic theology is
that grace works through nature. In other words, there'll be
people there that'll be running for it. But maybe God's
grace can work through that as well. You know what
I mean. There's never a pure system that comes down
from heaven. It always comes through human agency, and the
human agency like ourselves of opinions, and they'll agree, and
(33:26):
they'll disagree, and they'll be envy and all kinds of
things between them. But meanwhile, as I said, but that's
how God's grace works typically through nature. The ordinary in
the every day of life is what's sacramental to be
the same this in this contlave. So hopefully we'll get
a pope that as the blessings of God but also
(33:46):
was able to win the majority votes of the conslave.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
Aging is age in European.
Speaker 3 (33:54):
I'd say, I would say they probably won't want to
appoint somebody that's significantly well, what do you mean by old,
I mean I would say over eighty. On the other hand,
I don't think there's a couple of front runners that
are in their sixties. One in particular, Cardinal Pizza Bala.
(34:15):
He's very fascinating. He's a patriarch of Jerusalem. He's a
hot favorite. But he's only sixty years of age. So
if he lived to be ninety, which wouldn't be unusual
in this day and age, it might be too long
to have him. So they might pass him over this
time and like him the next time. I don't know.
We don't know what the Holy Spurs was up to
it all, but yeah, there'll be some of them that
(34:35):
that might be a bit too young. I mean, some
of them might be a bit too old. But then
that's all so relative. I I wish Sean O'Malley was running.
He'd make a great pope, but unfortunately he passed the
age of eighty. But he'll have a voice, you know,
because he's you know, he's very well respected and appreciated
(34:57):
in Rome and by the bishops, on the cardios and
throughout the world. So I bet he got consulted.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
Okay, so he's over eighty, he's not he's not allowed
to vote. But could they at some point say well
what about Sean O'Malley?
Speaker 3 (35:12):
Could could He's conceivable it's conceivable, Danavable, they could easily
pick them somebody from outside of there that that has
gone past the retirement age. But I'm just sailing good
health and so on, and you know the celebrat or
now there's all kinds of people who have lived into
into into old old age and the big leadership positions.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
What about what about the the the cardinal from the Philippines.
I'm a couple of yeah.
Speaker 3 (35:41):
Yeah about he's a wonderful person. He's a wonderful person, Tagla,
and they say very much in the in the mold
of Pau Francis. The only difficulty is that the Philippine
Church has done very poorly by way of addressing the
issue of clergy sex abuse. That they're basically kept it
on wraps. And it's a lot of criticism of the
(36:03):
Philippine Church. Now, whether Tagley gets gets tired with that
brush or not is a good question. Maybe he you know,
he wasn't a part of that, but that that that
will be one question about his suitability because that remains
a crucial crisis for the church. That has to be
that they have to continue address very active, you know,
(36:24):
competition huge to.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
Have quieted down but it's not going to go away
for a long time.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
It's not going to go away because in many ways
they still have to have to face the question not
just what happened, but why did it happen? And why
was it allowed to continue happening. Uh, there are questions
that we still have to address, and the next pope,
hopefully will will address them and and maybe maybe uh
the one you mentioned tag lay will will be a
(36:50):
fine expression of that. But yeah, we'll have we'll we'll
have to wait and see Jennifer.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
Any final question from you. Thank you for calling. I'm
sorry about the problems with the phones.
Speaker 4 (37:01):
Oh that's okay, Jan And I hope to see you
over the summer when you're down. And thank you very
much for your T shirt.
Speaker 3 (37:07):
Appreciate it, all.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
Right, word proudly, thanks Jen talk soon. Alrighty, all right.
I know Professor Grome that you had talked about the
challenges of celibacy in your own personal life, and that's
an issue that this pope may have to deal with
in some form of fashion.
Speaker 3 (37:29):
Yeah, you would think, well, you see again, France has
often got things started but then didn't finish them out,
Like he had a huge Senate of the South American
Church back in twenty nineteen, and the South American Church
overwhelmingly in favor of the married priesthood and of restoring
priests who had resigned from priesthood to married to restore
(37:49):
them to the priesthood. And that passed and was endorsed
overwhelmingly by the churches of South America. But France has
never moved on it. See that is just there, so
that awaits the next pope.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (38:03):
And and not just for South America, for other parts
of the world.
Speaker 2 (38:07):
For whatever happens, it's it's gonna happen for the for
the church universal.
Speaker 3 (38:11):
I would think, uh, yeah, you would think so that
it wouldn't be just confined to one area.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
Professor Groom is always thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 3 (38:19):
Thanks Dan, You're the only man. You're the only one
would keep me up this late at night.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
Well, Uh, you're a fascinating person to talk with. I
know my audience learned a lot tonight. And I can't
thank you so much for your time and for your
service uh to uh to our world and to our
to us.
Speaker 3 (38:36):
Thank you, thank you, yes, thank you, bye, thank you.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
All right, we are gonna go to the News and
we're gonna get these phones straightened out and we'll be
back on Night's side right after this
It's Night Side with Dan Ray. I'm WBZ Coustin's me video.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Today the papal conclave is underway. It's actually our tomorrow.
It's Thursday morning in Rome. They're about six hours ahead
of us. And at some point that conclave will be
renewed today. And there was one indication that there was
some sort of a vote taken inside the Sistine Chapel,
(00:29):
but the requisite two thirds vote for one of the
cardinals in the room was not achieved, and so therefore
the smoke that showed was black smoking, not white smoke.
And with us now to talk about all things Catholic
and all things papal. Conclavish is a friend of many years,
(00:51):
Professor Thomas Groom. He teaches at Boston College. Tom Groom,
Professor Groom, Groom, welcome back to Nightside. How are you?
Speaker 3 (01:00):
Oh? Thank you Dad, And only for an old friend
like yourself, so I'd stay up this late and I
sat on a Wednesday night. Well, I'm delighted, I'm deli
to join you and blessing.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Well, thank you, thank you, thank you. This has got
to be a very interesting time in our lifetimes. We're
not that far apart in age. There have been a
few fewer popes than presidents. There's no two term limit
on popes. Uh, no, no eight year limit, I should say,
uh and uh, we're about now to have the next
(01:34):
pope of our lifetime, and it's going to be certainly
an interesting process. I was listening to some reports today.
I Uh, I did realize that they were back in
the in the bad old days, and we're talking I
guess in the eleventh century. Uh, they did what is
(01:56):
the the forerunner of a paper conclave, and it took
three years before they could come up.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
With yes, that's right with the winner, and they eventually
then they eventually had to lock them up and give
them only bread and water, And that was the only
way that they finally came to a decision. The local
people were so sick and tired of them sponging on
them that they eventually they locked the doors and they
(02:22):
gave them bread and water, and they came to a decision.
But it did take about three years. I don't think
we're will do that this time here. But actually, when
you look at the conditions that they're living in, you
realize that these are cardinals of the church. Meanwhile, they're
they're sleeping in little beds that looked more like you know,
(02:44):
weekend bunks on the for the scouts or something, you know,
So they're pretty humble quarters. So I think they'll move
along and come to a decision probably the next it'll
take two or three days. They very I think, from
what i've know, what we've heard before, very often the
opening the opening votes are are kind of window dressing,
you know. The people vote for each other and then
(03:07):
to pay compliments to them, you know, then they can
when they leave they say, well I got two votes
to be pope, you know. But there's a lot of that.
But I think eventually then the third or fourth day,
they'll settle down. But I think it will take three
or four days.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
So let's talk. First of all, I have to ask you,
I'm sure you must have seen the movie Conclave.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
Yes, Dan, it's very very good, very helpful. There's little
pits and pieces that you could you could quibble with,
but they basically portrayed it fair and square, and that's
pretty much.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
I'm not gonna spoiled spoil the ending, but.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
The end. The ending was a bit of a surprise.
But but I've been hopeful. I thought, well, we might
have going forward.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Yeah, well I don't think so, but but you almost,
I mean you almost could tell if you were thinking
what the ending was going to be. I mean, there
was a lot of what I would call foreshadowing in
that movie Let's Hope, Let's Hope. So so, so let's
let's talk about you have been a theologian for your
(04:15):
entire life. You served as a Catholic priest and at
one point decided that you were you wanted to go
in a different direction and uh, and you married the
love of your life and uh and very very successful
uh as as a teacher and as a professor.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
And it is the only thing I knew I knew
how to do.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Yeah. Well, the point is, though that I will rely
upon you to get a sense of where we're headed.
The church obviously went for the first time, at least
in my recollection for an Eastern European with John Paul two. Yes,
(05:03):
they then kind of came back to to to the
more traditional Benedict who was the only pope to resign, and.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
Then they was in Germany. He was German. Remember then,
you know he still was an Italian. Because the pattern
through the eighteen nineteenth and even in the twentieth century,
was to elect an Italian because I had the majority
in the conclave, whereas at least Benedict was, you know,
not from Italy, and he was breaking open new ground.
He was the first German in a long time to
be elected pope.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Yeah, and then of course they really surprised first person
from the Western hemisphere of Pope Francis.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
Uh, the first.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Ed a Jesuit. Yes, we have to mention that. I
was reminded of that again today by Jack Dunne of
your public your great relations department.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
And some people say, maybe the last Jesuits for another
five hundred years.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Well, let's unless they decide to make you. You're eligible
any member of the Catholic Church. I guess Mayl is eligible.
Speaker 3 (06:09):
So I think there need to be a cardinal. It
needs to be a cardinal. I've been passed over for that.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Dan.
Speaker 3 (06:15):
So yeah, oh I didn't really.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Oh, I thought it was just anyone that they could.
They could if they wanted to.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
I think you'd be Dan'd be in a day christ
bishop and then the car then.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Oh okay, fine, okay.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
Well they've always been a card I didn't I didn't
think that they were gonna get okay, But that's okay.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
So so we.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
Now know what we think to remember Dan is that
this goes back. This is the two hundred and sixty
seventh pope. There's been two hundred's in Saint Peter two
thousand years ago, there's been two hundred and sixty six pope.
So everything you can imagine about it has happened, you know.
So like there was an eighteen year old was elected
the pope back in the seventh or eighth century because
(06:55):
he was the son of the emperor, and the emperor
told him that I want my son to be the pope,
and they voted for him.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Good work if you can get it.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
But yeah, So it's amazing thing is that it has
the old Catholic theology that grace works through nature, and
so nature has been at work all along with God's
grace also has been at work. So in other words,
we've also end up with some darn good popes and
then of course a wonderful pope in Pope Francis. And
that'll be the big challenge to try to even begin
(07:24):
to replicate or or at least to approximate somebody as
wonderful and fantastic as well as Pope Prances and as
the kind of a leader that he was, and for
the whole world, not just for Catholics, but for five
Jewish friends and BUTLM friends and all kinds of non
religious friends that just taught the world of Pope France.
And so there's big shoes to fill, and the cards
(07:48):
have their work cut out for them to find another
Fancis or somebody comparable.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Well we get back, I want to talk about that.
I have some thoughts which probably are errant, but I
want to run those by you, and I want to
be able to get corrected as to how far off
base I am. But but I really I mean that honestly.
I'm also going to invite callers if they would like,
if you want to talk to someone who knows all
(08:14):
of I'm going to use the phrase inside baseball. Professor
Thomas Groom is here, and I don't want to in
any way, shape or form compare this to a baseball game.
But there's going to be some suspense, and whether it
goes into extra innings or not, we don't know. There
are supposed to be two votes in the morning tomorrow,
two votes in the afternoon of tradition holds, and at
(08:36):
that point that process might start to Winnow will have
to see how how it works out. My guest is
Professor Thomas Groom. He teaches at Boston College. He is
a theologian and someone who is deep in his knowledge
of the church. He is also, I think, as you
can tell, a huge fan of the late Pope, and
(08:58):
he's also I would say, probably you would characterize yourself
as fairly as definitely I would think of progressive and
is very No, I'm serious. There are a lot of
the issues that any new pope is going to face.
You have addressed either in writings or books. Is there
a new book with your name attached to it that
we need to write?
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Late?
Speaker 4 (09:19):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (09:19):
Dan? Well, thank you Dan, thank you, thank you. Yes.
While I've written a number of books that I wouldn't write,
and many of them I wouldn't recommendes it. I require
my students to read them, but I wouldn't recommend them.
But I one book that I would recommend, and that's
a book called Faith for the Heart. Faith for the Heart,
and in the sense it addresses the issues that the
(09:39):
Contave is addressing, like how do we make sense out
of our faith at this time and this time and place,
and obviously the horizon duck's different than the past, and
we will live into new ways of practicing our faith
and guiding our faith and trying to appropriate and bring
us along with us. And I would sustain our lives
and so on and thend us ways of believing and
(10:02):
ways of belonging and ways of behaving which all of
us need if we're to live life. Well, so it's
still as a tremendous function to play on the world stage.
And I think our Catholic faith has a tremendous richness
to it.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Yes, and of course it's been through some it's been
through some turbulent times. Uh and uh, well we can
we can hit upon that as well. But we got
to take a break. The book book Faith, Faith for
the Heart by by Professor Thomas Groom of Boston College.
This is a quick break. We'll be back in about
three minutes, and I want to talk. I want to
(10:36):
pick a profile here and define what what I think
you think will will be produced by this conclave back
on night side with Professor Thomas Groom of Boston College,
theologian of great great repute. We're delighted to have him tonight.
If you like to join the conversation, you know the
number six one seven, two, five, four ten thirty or
(10:56):
six one seven nine three thirty. The good thing about
Professor Groom is whatever you ask him, you will get
an answer, and a direct and a straight answer. We're
coming back on Nightside.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
It's Night Side with Boston's news Radio.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
We're delighted to be joined by Professor Thomas Groom. Groom
a theologian at Boston College. You've taught at BC now
many many years. How how long have you been there? Oh?
Speaker 3 (11:22):
My bes, Dan, if I teach for one more year,
because I hope to God spares me. I love talked
for fifty years at Boston College.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
You for a lot, I can remember.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
I often joked. I often joked that they hired me
just after I'd made my first Holy communion.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Well, actually, technically then you're what's called PF which means
pre pre fluty.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
Pre fluty. But actually I taught fluty. It's fascinating and
and if he was listening, I'd love to. I'd love to.
I love him to know the story. But I often say,
one of my greatest claims to fame. I thought, all
the books have written, in all the rest of it,
my greatest lam to fame. And I oftenize people, how
many of you have seen the Hail Mary pass every
hand today? And the audience goes up, and I said, well,
(12:08):
my greatest claim to fame is not the books have written.
My biggest claim is that I taught Doug Flutie to
hail Mary.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Well, listen, theology we would expect.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
I had a theology course at Boston College, So in
a sense, I taught Doug the hail Mary.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Yeah, well, absolutely great. So here's my thought. Here's my thought,
and I want to tell me how far off base
I am. My sense is that these cardinals have an
option here, They have many options, and I think they
may want to come back philosophically a little to the center.
(12:46):
I know you're a big fan of Francis, and you
know I'm more than JP two guy. Maybe bring it
back somebody who's a little bit, a little bit less
adventuresome on some of the issues that I know are
so important to you. But I'm guessing they're going to
go to another continent, maybe maybe Asia or maybe Africa. Yeah,
I think that's where the action is how far off
(13:08):
am I do you think with that.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
Analysis, Dan, I don't think you're off at all, really,
I mean from your lips to God's ears. I mean,
it could be a more moderate pope. Francis was a
bit of adventuresome, now there was. But but on the
other hand, he was on the on the social issues.
You know, there's migrants, the immigrants, the downright, the poor,
that downtrodden. I mean, his great symbol of his of
(13:30):
his pontificate to me was on a Thursday, that Holy Thursday,
going to the local prison, women's prison and washing the
feet of these young women in the prison. But he
was just extort the example of Christian love and charity
and care for the downtrodden, et cetera, which is core
to our faith. It's at the heart of our Catholic faith.
So I mean, they'll have to invite, they'll have to
(13:52):
like somebody that has those kinds of social values. Now
there might be a little more cautious I suppose that
some of the more controversial issues, but but they won't
go away. I mean, and Francis at least opened the
doors of the possibility of conversation, like the ordination of
women to the Diacton for example. Of course, if you
if you ordained them to the Acton, is to be
no theological reason for if you're declining them to priesthood
(14:14):
or episcopacy. Now, I think that conversation will continue, you know,
Carl Ronald writing thirty five forty years ago, they said
there's no theological reasons left anymore for declining ordination to
priesthood and ministry and so on to women. So there's
work to be done. But I think one of the
(14:35):
greatest contributions the legacies of for Francis will be this
notion of cinidality, when in many ways it turns that
were the church upside down instead of the hierarchy all
being in charge and telling the rest of us what
to do, it kind of turns the pyramid upside down
and the people get to participate and to have an
opinion and to share their opinion, and to have voice
(14:57):
in the church, and to participate and to bring their
to bring their gifts to the table as it were,
so rather than being a top down hierarchy. Know, the
hierarchical structure of the church will continue instead of bishops
and popes, et cetera. But I think this notion of
cynidality that France has launched in the world, and of
course it's an old idea, goes back to the very
beginnings of the church, the earliest centuries. But we're lost
(15:18):
it along the way, especially as Catholic Christians, we lost
it in some ways. Our Eastern brothers and as Orthodox
brothers and sisters were more faithful the synidality than we were.
But it's coming back, and I think that's going to
be one of the great agendas for the next pope
to continue to push for cynidality and the practice of sinidality.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Just so, professor, just so there's no confusion amongst the
the faithful. Here, Cynidality is spelled s y.
Speaker 3 (15:45):
N o d from the Greek word the week, then
you know, which literally means to work, to walk along,
or to move along together.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
Well, they talked about when you talk, when you talk
about that again, sinidality, I want to make sure that
no one thinks it's spelled si n That's all I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
Sorry, that's why, thank you.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
N No, that's all. That's all. So let's do this,
let's let's take a break. I want to expand on that.
I always want to give people a chance to call.
I would love to hear from people who are either
non Catholics or people who are interested in the process.
We can talk about the process and all of that,
(16:26):
the history of this process which will produce the two
hundred and sixty seventh Pope in the history of the
Catholic Church. I think it's really interesting the amount of
attention that the American networks are giving to the papal
to the Papal conclave, because they are treating it only
what twenty five percent of their audience, probably Catholic. I'm
(16:51):
guessing that we have about sixty to seventy million Catholics
in America. I don't know that they would do this
when they there is ahead of any other religion in
the process of being elected or appointed, and that's to
me fascinating. I want to get your comment on that,
(17:13):
why in your opinion, and I also want to give
people an opportunity to ask you any questions. I mean,
you are somebody who believes that the church needs to modernize.
Whether people agree or or disagree, this is a church.
This is no longer the Catholic Church of the nineteen fifties.
(17:33):
It's now the Church of the twenty first century, and
there have been changes, and there are folks in the Church,
of which Professor Groom is one, that feel that the
changes must continue or if the church doesn't grow, it
will die. It's growing in other parts of the world,
and I want to make people understand that as well.
(17:55):
We'll get to all of that, I promise in your
phone call six one, seven, two, four, ten thirty, six months,
seven nine thirty, feel free join the conversation. That's why
Professor Groom is staying up late. He's gonna have to
get up early tomorrow morning because the Rome is six
hours ahead of us, and by time six o'clock in
the morning rolls around, it to be almost noontime in Rome.
(18:17):
So we very much appreciate him staying with us tonight,
but he will be gone by eleven o'clock. I could
talk to him all night long. This fascinating intellectual and theologian.
Back on Nightside right.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
After this, It's Night Side with Dan Ray on w
Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
I'm joined by Boston College Theology Professor Thomas Groom. Professor Groom,
I am delighted, but somewhat surprised at the amount of
attention live coverage that not only the cable networks, but
the three major networks ABC, CBS, NBC have given to
(18:58):
not only the passing Pope princess, but the process now
by which his success will be chosen. Are you surprised
by that or no?
Speaker 3 (19:07):
Well, I think no, not really, Dan in the sense
that well, yes, indeed it is surprising and gratifying in
a way, but I think some of it is the
the legacy of Pope Friences already emerging, that he really
won the hearts of the world. He was a pope
for everybody, and I think lots of people from all traditions,
especially people with any sense of social justice, any sense
(19:30):
of compassion, any sense of the rights of the downtrodden.
And he here for the environment, I mean, his passion
for trying to save our environment before we destroy it
and poison ourselves was exemplary and extraordinary in a gift
of the world, not just the Catholic faith. Now, you
know he's our pope and revere him as such, and
our leading teacher, etc. Et cetera. But I have lots
(19:52):
of friends from other traditions, and no tradition that deeply
admired the kind of values he was championing, and see
in our present political assignus. And so I think people
are hoping that maybe these Catholics can come up with
another pope like Francis that would do the same kind
of leadership on the world stage. Now, he'd also need
to be the pope of the Catholic Church, and of
(20:13):
course you will be. But it's a bigger role than
just for the Catholic Church.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
But that that isn't that the inherent conflict in the
sense that the criticism of Francis came often from the
folks who were perhaps pushing him a little further on
things like gay marriage and and to what to what
level should the church go women as priests. You know,
(20:39):
he held the line on many of those issues. It's
easy to talk about, you know, being a good steward
of God's green earth. I mean, look, you get into
the whole climate change and what do you do about it.
That's where where the water gets choppy. But but I
don't know anybody who wants to destroy the.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
Planet, you know, don't want to take precautions to preserve us.
I mean, there are people who are happy to exploit
it and pretend that there is no crisis and there
is no environmental challenge.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
Well, I think that with I think that within some sides,
with all due respect, professor, there are some who would say, Okay,
you know, a little bit of soul, a little bit
of this, but we need to bring in some nuclear
or whatever, and and then people kind of it becomes
sort of you talk about cafeteria Catholics, it also is
cafeteria issues. Like you know, so if we could just
(21:31):
do it with soul and just to the wind, that
would be great, but you have to have something more
than that, and then you get the question of of
I'm just saying I think I would like to assume
that that there's nobody who wants to destroy the earth,
and that there's and I'd like to assume that there's
nobody who really wants to use nuclear weapons. But obviously
we have to be concerned about those sorts of issues.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
Yeah, And I'm just saying that that whenever I talk
to you, I get excited because I think you have
a real good sense of where the church is going.
But I also think that the church has has its uh,
it's it's it's religious. I'm going to use the word
religious ideology that that that any pope, uh is he
(22:18):
cont straight too far from that? And there are people,
there are people. Yeah, that's and that's the balance that
they have to that that needs to be struck. Go ahead,
I didn't I don't mean to dominate.
Speaker 3 (22:29):
It has to be no matter what they do, it
has to be faithful to the tradition. I mean, we're
all we're all our calls to give our religions to
the Creed, you know, to the niceeing Creed and the
confession of faith we make there and you know, to
Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior and so on,
and the church is a sacrament of God's salvation of
the world, et cetera, et cetera. So that, I mean,
(22:49):
the common faith is there, but as we implement it,
as we expanded out in this post nuclear age, and
it's this, you know, it's posts almost everything you know,
postmodern post God knows. It's a new day. There's one
theologian that writes about the afternoon of Christianity and that
in a sense, his proposed is that the afternoon won't
(23:11):
be quite like the morning. Uh. Now, they'll still be
faith and and you know, deep faith, but some of
the rules and regulations and structures and so on that
it may have served as well at some time in
a different contexts and ages and cultures. But it'll keep evolving.
If the faith is to if it's to grow, and
(23:32):
if it's to continue, it will have to be remain
vital I continue to push out into new horizons. I
think that's where That's where Francis was such a leader,
not just for Catholics, but for all people of goodwill?
Speaker 2 (23:44):
Is lebis? Is there an inherent conflict here in the
sense that the church is doing well in different parts
of the world. It's not doing well in Europe, it's
not doing as well in the United States as it
once did. We can, I think we can agree upon that.
And it's doing well in South America, it's doing well
(24:05):
in Africa. Yes, yeah, So the question is here's my question.
My question is a lot of the conveniences of the
West electricity and and and air conditioning, all of which
on climate change, there's there's there's there's sort of that
that argument how much air conditioning? How much electricity can
(24:29):
we use before we're overusing it? Yet there's parts of
the world where the church is not doing well, where
there is no electricity or there is no air conditioning.
So as they come into the modern world, what conflict
do they have to deal with in terms of the
creature comforts of the world versus what the church requires.
(24:51):
Do you know where I'm trying to go with this question?
Speaker 3 (24:52):
Yeah? I do, then, And it's a great question, and
it's a better question that I've been asked in a
long time. And I'm not sure I can give in
adequate answer to it, but I'm going to give it
a kind of a simplistic response to what you're saying.
The heart of our faith is Jesus of Nazareth, and
I mean Jesus of Nazareth, the carpenter who walked the
roads of Galilee. Now our Christian faith we also believe
(25:15):
he was the Son of God and the second person
of blessed Trinity, and the divine presence in human history,
in our Lord and Savior, et cetera, et cetera. But
the Catholic faith has ape France has led the way
with this. If you were to say, what was it
the heart and center and soul of Francis's pontificate. I
would say Jesus. Now, so that's because he was a Jesuit.
He's a society of Jesus. But that emphasis that Catholics
(25:37):
have in some ways rediscovered this, the emphasis on the
historical Jesus and the values he stud for and the
truths he proclaimed, that the lifestyle he lived, and his
greatest commandment that the only way we can love God
is by loving our neighbor as ourselves. And I was hungry,
gave me to eat. I was thirsty, you gave me
to drink. God will not say there was a hungry
(25:57):
person one time in your feed them, but rather I
was hungry be to eat. I mean, it's a very
radical gospel that Jesus left us. Now, there's much more
to our faith than just the gospels, you know what
I mean, whether it's two thousand years since then and
the evolution of our faith, et cetera. And yet there's
something that France has caused was rather amazing when he
called us back to the historical Jesus and to look
again at the pattern that the values he lived. And
(26:20):
you know, he was constantly giving out bread to people.
I mean, there's there's only two there's only two miracles
reported six times in the Gospel. One is the miracle
of the Resurrection and the other is the miracle of
the loaves and fishes. It's in all four Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke,
and John, and twice in Matthew, twice in the Mark
Jesus multiplying loaves, four loaves, five love, seventh fish whatever,
to cure thousands, and to heal thousands and thousands of people,
(26:43):
and to cure the sick among them, et cetera. And
that's that kind of Jesus. I mean, that's the one
that calls us to the depths and to the deep
commitment of our faith. And now, as they said, there's
more to our faith than just saying Jesus. But Pope
Francis has done that was what I think. It's a
great legacy to return us and to more refocus us
more deliberately. Uh not on Thomas Aquinas or Augustin or
(27:06):
somebody or a gat theologians, which we spend a lot
of time doing, but rather to begin our focus on Jesus.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
I would I would argue in a in a in
a polite way that the American economic system, which can
be tough rugged individualism, capitalism, whatever, also has produced more
food for more people, and not only in America but
(27:35):
in different parts of the world. Uh that I'm not
sure that that that Francis would would look at maybe,
you know, unbridled capitalism. As many of us in America,
we look at it as something that is good because,
as you know, I think it was President Kennedy said,
a rising tide lives all boats. And I think that's
that's that's the rising tide of America that that hopefully
(27:58):
is going to help other kind tries learn to feed
more people and to be more successful. That's I don't
know if there's an inherent conflict there or if it's
complimentary Tom, that's I professor.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
Hopefully it can be complimentary there.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
Yes, Okay, let me take a very quick call here
and we'll take some more after the break, but I'm
going to get to Jennifer, who's been holding on from
Yarmouth Port. Jennifer, your own professor Tom Broom of Boston College,
go right ahead.
Speaker 4 (28:30):
Okay, Well, I just have one very quick question. How
many cardinals are actually voting?
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Okay, it's one hundred and thirty nine. Would you please
call him back for us. I was not. I hope
he didn't get disconnected, but please call him back. It's
one hundred and thirty nine cardinals, Jennifer, who vote and
in order to I think the number is one hundred
and thirty nine, and the number that are needed to
(28:57):
elect is two thirds of that, which I believe is
something like eighty nine when I did my math.
Speaker 4 (29:05):
Okay, Jennifer nominated for the Pope? Do you get nominated?
You know?
Speaker 2 (29:12):
Jennifer, hold off for one second. Did we lose Jennifer? Now,
what's going on with our phones? Jennifer? Yeah, Jennifer, please
call back. Professor. You dropped off on us, and I
think we got a little problem with our phones here.
Jennifer was on the line. She started to ask me
(29:33):
some questions that I wanted to defer to you. The
She wanted to know how many cardinals I told her
that are eligible to vote. I think it's one hundred
and thirty nine, if I'm not mistaken.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
One hundred and thirty three. Actually, Dan, if you didn't
show up and we're sick, okay, thirty three.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
So now the two thirds of that is going to
be probably somewhere around eighty nine. Okay, eighty nine. I
was right on that number. Okay, Jennifer has rejoined us.
Let's do this, Let's take a break, Let's get our
phones right, and we'll come back with Professor Thomas Groom
of Boston College, who's a Jesuit theologian. And Jennifer, thank
you for calling back. We didn't get you off our phone.
(30:10):
We're giving us a little bit of trouble. We'll get
everything all set and we'll come back on Nightside right
after this.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
So you're on night Side with Dan Ray on WA
Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
We're going to go back to the phones and keep
our fingers crossed. Jennifer, we got you back here. We
just lost Tom Groom here. Something's going on with the phones.
Please bring Professor Groom back as quickly as you can. Jennifer,
I don't know what's going on with the phones. Can
you hear me?
Speaker 4 (30:38):
I can can you hear me?
Speaker 2 (30:40):
Yes? We can, And I believe that Professor Groom is
ready to join us. So you go right ahead. We
have Professor Groom on the line. Go ahead, Jennifer. What's
your question from my guest?
Speaker 4 (30:49):
Oh? Okay, so you had said that there were one
hundred and somebody nine people that are actually voting.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Is that one undred?
Speaker 2 (30:55):
Professor Groom corrected me. One hundred and thirty three cardinals
are present, and so they comprised the conclave, and that
means I think it's eighty nine that will be necessary
the two thirds majority. But go ahead, you ask your
question directly of Professor Groom. He can hear you.
Speaker 4 (31:11):
Okay, So how many how many people are actually vying
for the pope position? How many of those people are
in their running?
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Okay, well, professor, go right ahead, professor.
Speaker 3 (31:22):
So technically all one hundred and thirty three of them
are eligible, and even if it would be possible for
them to reach outside of the conclave and I'm appointed
archbishop or a bishop, they could easily raise somebody to
the level that would be unusual, and it wouldn't be
you know, with no precedent recently for in the recent centuries.
So it's more more than likely that one of the
(31:44):
one hundred and thirty three cardinals that are there, one
of them will be selected. You know, it's it's probably
ninety nine to percent likely. And now so that they
have to get eighty nine votes, as Dan said, or
eighty nine positive votes and the point is of the
one hundred and thirty three that are voting Paul France
is a point at one hundred and eight of them.
(32:05):
In other words, four fifth of them were appointed by Francis.
So the assumption is that most people make is that
UH have a similar sentiment to poor Francis, that he
would have chosen people of like mind to himself, you know,
within reason. I'm sure there'll be lots of the agreements
and disagreements, but that generally speaking, there are church people
who would be in the mold of Francis. So I
(32:27):
would be fairly confident that the next pope will continue
the same style and a lot of the a lot
of the typical The central agenda of that was the
pontificate of poor Francis.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
So then the question, the question that Jennifer answer.
Speaker 4 (32:42):
I certainly respect Francis for all of his you know,
work for the Catholic Church. I think it's just amazing, you.
Speaker 3 (32:48):
Know, and for the world and for the world.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
Yes, you know, jif Jennifer asked a question which which
I'm not sure if you can hear me, but Jennifer
asked the question of how many people I think the
verbs you use was vying for the job. This is
not a job you can really run for, correct, Professor.
Speaker 3 (33:05):
Groom, Well, Dan, look at the old Catholic theology is
that grace works through nature. In other words, there'll be
people there that'll be running for it. But maybe God's
grace can work through that as well. You know what
I mean. There's never a pure system that comes down
from heaven. It always comes through human agency, and the
human agency like ourselves of opinions, and they'll agree, and
(33:26):
they'll disagree, and they'll be envy and all kinds of
things between them. But meanwhile, as I said, but that's
how God's grace works typically through nature. The ordinary in
the every day of life is what's sacramental to be
the same this in this contlave. So hopefully we'll get
a pope that as the blessings of God but also
(33:46):
was able to win the majority votes of the conslave.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
Aging is age in European.
Speaker 3 (33:54):
I'd say, I would say they probably won't want to
appoint somebody that's significantly well, what do you mean by old,
I mean I would say over eighty. On the other hand,
I don't think there's a couple of front runners that
are in their sixties. One in particular, Cardinal Pizza Bala.
(34:15):
He's very fascinating. He's a patriarch of Jerusalem. He's a
hot favorite. But he's only sixty years of age. So
if he lived to be ninety, which wouldn't be unusual
in this day and age, it might be too long
to have him. So they might pass him over this
time and like him the next time. I don't know.
We don't know what the Holy Spurs was up to
it all, but yeah, there'll be some of them that
(34:35):
that might be a bit too young. I mean, some
of them might be a bit too old. But then
that's all so relative. I I wish Sean O'Malley was running.
He'd make a great pope, but unfortunately he passed the
age of eighty. But he'll have a voice, you know,
because he's you know, he's very well respected and appreciated
(34:57):
in Rome and by the bishops, on the cardios and
throughout the world. So I bet he got consulted.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
Okay, so he's over eighty, he's not he's not allowed
to vote. But could they at some point say well
what about Sean O'Malley?
Speaker 3 (35:12):
Could could He's conceivable it's conceivable, Danavable, they could easily
pick them somebody from outside of there that that has
gone past the retirement age. But I'm just sailing good
health and so on, and you know the celebrat or
now there's all kinds of people who have lived into
into into old old age and the big leadership positions.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
What about what about the the the cardinal from the Philippines.
I'm a couple of yeah.
Speaker 3 (35:41):
Yeah about he's a wonderful person. He's a wonderful person, Tagla,
and they say very much in the in the mold
of Pau Francis. The only difficulty is that the Philippine
Church has done very poorly by way of addressing the
issue of clergy sex abuse. That they're basically kept it
on wraps. And it's a lot of criticism of the
(36:03):
Philippine Church. Now, whether Tagley gets gets tired with that
brush or not is a good question. Maybe he you know,
he wasn't a part of that, but that that that
will be one question about his suitability because that remains
a crucial crisis for the church. That has to be
that they have to continue address very active, you know,
(36:24):
competition huge to.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
Have quieted down but it's not going to go away
for a long time.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
It's not going to go away because in many ways
they still have to have to face the question not
just what happened, but why did it happen? And why
was it allowed to continue happening. Uh, there are questions
that we still have to address, and the next pope,
hopefully will will address them and and maybe maybe uh
the one you mentioned tag lay will will be a
(36:50):
fine expression of that. But yeah, we'll have we'll we'll
have to wait and see Jennifer.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
Any final question from you. Thank you for calling. I'm
sorry about the problems with the phones.
Speaker 4 (37:01):
Oh that's okay, Jan And I hope to see you
over the summer when you're down. And thank you very
much for your T shirt.
Speaker 3 (37:07):
Appreciate it, all.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
Right, word proudly, thanks Jen talk soon. Alrighty, all right.
I know Professor Grome that you had talked about the
challenges of celibacy in your own personal life, and that's
an issue that this pope may have to deal with
in some form of fashion.
Speaker 3 (37:29):
Yeah, you would think, well, you see again, France has
often got things started but then didn't finish them out,
Like he had a huge Senate of the South American
Church back in twenty nineteen, and the South American Church
overwhelmingly in favor of the married priesthood and of restoring
priests who had resigned from priesthood to married to restore
(37:49):
them to the priesthood. And that passed and was endorsed
overwhelmingly by the churches of South America. But France has
never moved on it. See that is just there, so
that awaits the next pope.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (38:03):
And and not just for South America, for other parts
of the world.
Speaker 2 (38:07):
For whatever happens, it's it's gonna happen for the for
the church universal.
Speaker 3 (38:11):
I would think, uh, yeah, you would think so that
it wouldn't be just confined to one area.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
Professor Groom is always thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 3 (38:19):
Thanks Dan, You're the only man. You're the only one
would keep me up this late at night.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
Well, Uh, you're a fascinating person to talk with. I
know my audience learned a lot tonight. And I can't
thank you so much for your time and for your
service uh to uh to our world and to our
to us.
Speaker 3 (38:36):
Thank you, thank you, yes, thank you, bye, thank you.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
All right, we are gonna go to the News and
we're gonna get these phones straightened out and we'll be
back on Night's side right after this
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