September 26, 2025 • 38 mins
Earlier this week on Monday evening we interviewed Quincy Mayor Thomas Koch in which he made spontaneous comments about the Catholic Church child sexual abuse scandal of several years ago in which he said, “That was mostly homosexual issues, not pedophilia.” Koch went on to say that “the level in which it happens with teachers and coaches is higher than it was percentage wise than the church.” The comments received lots of backlash from the public, Quincy school board and abuse survivors with some even calling for the mayor’s resignation. Tonight, Dan will address the comments made as we are joined by a sexual abuse survivor who was abused as a child by a Catholic priest, Father Porter, who was convicted. We invite other abuse survivors to share their story and let their voices be heard on NightSide
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
It's Night Side with Dan Ray on w b Z,
Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Thank you very much. Al. On Monday night this past week.
Of this week, Monday night, UH, we invited Mayor Tom
Cox caught Coke, excuse me, Tom Coke of Quincy, UH
to talk about, uh, the the two statues that he
(00:26):
hopes to be fixed and grace the entrance to a
new public safety building in Quincy. UH, two statues of
a Catholic Saint Saint Michael and Saint Flourian. And during
that conversation with Mayor Coke, somehow I started to talk about, uh,
the antipathy towards organized religion, and Mayor Coke made some
(00:53):
comments about the pedophile priest scandal UH in the archdiocese,
and we we had an exchange, UH. And I just
want to play a couple of the bites here just
to sort of reset this UH. And then we're going
to talk with a survivor of the pedophile priest crisis,
(01:18):
a man who is now seventy two UH and at
the age of eight was attacked by a Catholic priest
who eventually served time in prison. So this was me
UH talking in twenty three a rob about the lack
(01:40):
of leadership by specifically Cardinal burnand Law, the leaders of
the Catholic Church at the time, once they became aware
that there were young young people, including children, who had
been sexually assaulted by Catholic priests. This cut twenty three A.
(02:01):
It shocks me, and it shocks me that the leadership
of the church at the time, Cardinal Law didn't personally
ask that those priests who either who had been been
accused of taking advantage of children, that he didn't have
them come into his office so he could personally take
the caller away from them.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
But you know that, I mean we could, we could
spend a segment on that sometime. I mean that that
was mostly homosexual issues, on pedophilia, and well there were
a lot there were a.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Lot of children who were impacted and kids who were
or fourteen fifteen.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
Yeah, well pedophilia is a younger age and a teenagers.
But that's another issue for another day.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
So that is where the problem sort of started. And
we followed up with a little bit more conversation just
so you have a sense of it. If you didn't
listen to us on Monday night, I cut twenty three B. Rob,
I'm responding people, whether it's a teacher or a coach
or a clergyman, you know, take it takes advantage of
(03:11):
a kid thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen years old, they you know,
unacceptable in my opinion.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
Agreed, but just one final note on that. From my view,
the level of which it happens the teachers and coaches
and stuff is higher than it was percentage wizing the church.
You know that the church was, you know, not very
popular with the secular media, and so they it's a
good beating. You don't read about it every day when
(03:39):
it happens around the country and other circumstances. It's bad
and evil in any circumstance, but I don't believe the
media treats it equally into various situations where it happens.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
I was not going to try to challenge him on statistics,
but it seems to me that they there is a
higher level of responsibility amongst clergy members of any faith
Cut twenty three c.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
Rob You know that, I mean we could we could
spend a segment on that sometime. I mean that that
was mostly homosexual issues, on pedophilia, and you know, there
were a lot.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Of children who were impacted and kids who were were
thirteen fifteen.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
Yeah, well pedophilia is a younger age and any teenagers.
But that's another issue for another day.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
And then this is the last by twenty three D
just to give you a sense of the mayor's mindset.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
The the level of which it happens with teachers and
coaches and stuff is higher than it was percentage wizing
the church. You know that the church was, you know,
not very popular with the secular media, and so they
they took a beating. You don't read about it every
day when it happens around the country and other circumstances.
(04:59):
It's bad, an evil in any circumstance, but I don't
believe the media treats it equally in the various situations
where it happens.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
There's a phrase when someone's digging a hole for themselves,
he's the best advice you could give them is to
stop digging. And as much as I tried to in
a nice way, it was pretty clear that the man,
now the mayor, has his credit apologized for these remarks,
but it is I want to get it clarified, and
(05:31):
so I have invited today a gentleman who was sexually
assaulted by a Catholic priest father, James Porter, in Attleborough, Massachusetts,
when he was eight years old. I want to welcome
a survivor, Claude Leboeufe, who went on to have a
in some respects a difficult life, in other respects of
(05:52):
fairly normal life. Married first wife passed away, Claude told
me today, and he worked for many years in the
US Postal Service. Claude, thank you for having Uh reached
out to me. But I got to get your reaction.
(06:12):
It seemed to me that the mayor was focused on
he was looking past the problem. I think it's it's
probably fair to suggest what what is your reaction? I
want to tell us your story first. You you're an
eight year old boy, an eight year old boy who
was violently attacked by a priest father. I hate to
(06:36):
use the word father, but James Porter.
Speaker 4 (06:41):
Hi, dear, I'm glad to be here, very honored. So
I'll start off by saying that I did receive a
nicely worded apology from Mayor Koch Uh just today. I
was impressed by that because remarks were very offensive, but
he did give me a courageously and decent apology by
an email. So I'll start off by saying.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
That, Okay, that's that's that's kind of you to say
that as well to be to be your I thank
you for that, for that acknowledgment. I'll explain what happened
to you. What happened to you at eight was an
act of evil, criminal, criminality, evil, whatever you want to
(07:22):
call it. It's yeah, tell us as best you can,
you know, and again we talked about this today. I
think it's an adult audience. They will understand what you're
saying by using, you know, language that will describe it,
but the horror of it cannot be it cannot be understood.
Speaker 4 (07:41):
So what happened to me was in nineteen sixty one,
I was a student at Saint Joseph's Catholic Church in Attleborough, Massachusetts,
and one day I was an eight year old boy,
one of the nuns in the school gave me a
bundle of rods of prayer shawls. I'm not sure what
but to hang up in the closet in the back
room behind the altar in the church. And when I
(08:05):
went in there, James Porter attacked me and sodomized me.
At the time, I buried most of that memory. My
memory didn't fully return to me until my year twenty twenty,
what some people call recover memory. It is a controversial area,
but that's what happened to me. The way I remember
it was, I walked into the room and I could
(08:26):
see James Porter standing by a stained glass window, smiling
at me. I had a very vivid memory of his
smile abruptly turning into a scowl as he reached over
and grabbed a hold of me and bent me over
a table and sonomized me. I had to throw my
pants down. So what happened the memory I had back
(08:48):
then when as an eight year old boy, I remember
going into the room and then there was a skip,
almost like an old movie skim film skipping, and there
was like this middle part missing, and then I remember
my next memory back then was walking out with a
really severe pain in my butt, which is consistent with
(09:09):
being sodomized. I never reported anything to anyone because I
couldn't describe what had happened at the time. Well, so
in the year twenty twenty, that memory came back to
me in like gradual stages until I could finally describe
exactly what happened to me who did it? I did
a lot of work to find pictures of James Porter.
(09:31):
What he looked like is when he was a young man,
he was in his twenties, then at the time he
raped me. So anyway, I made a point of being
positive on who it was in the year twenty twenty one.
In twenty twenty two, I went back into the room.
I was able to go back there by talking a
maintenance man into opening up the church up for me
(09:51):
to tell him saying that I was looking for a
church to go to. So I got to go into
that room two separate weekdays in two years. And to
make sure that my remembrance is very accurate, that was
That was the room, and it was James Porter. And
the stained glass window was a particular trigger for me.
There was a lot of amber in the color of
(10:12):
the window, and I remember that amber color triggered me.
Why I went to a shrine that was about a
mile from the church, and if it's a different place,
they had a lot of stained glass, and I had
a lot of amber. And I went to that area
that trying just to walk around and I just went
into the church and I that amber colored stained glass
(10:33):
brought that memory back, and I remember at the time
of the extreme pain and my abb in and my butt,
I did not know what had happened quite yet, but
it was like the memory, kind of the muscle memory
from my being raped.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Well, I I talked, as I mentioned to you with
your returning today, Mitchell Garabedian, and he explained to me
that with this recovered memory, they go through a lot
of work to make sure that the person who is
who is coming forward is telling the truth. They review
medical records, they review school records, and eventually the Diocese
(11:10):
of the Fall River acknowledged what had happened to you.
James Porter spent time in prison. He died in two
thousand and five. But you were not the only child,
and you were a child at the age of eight
who suffered this horrific, horrific experience. I said in the
(11:34):
opening that thank goodness that you've lived a very I
would say successful life. You've had tragedies like most people have.
You lost your first wife, you remarried, you had a
career in the post office. When you heard about Mayor
(11:57):
Coke's comments, you didn't live and on. You weren't listening
on Monday night. What was your reaction, how much of
that came flooding back to you.
Speaker 4 (12:09):
I felt angry about the remarks, but I also understand
that a big problem that I see is that there's
a lot of negative opinion towards survivors. There's a lot
of misconceptions. So I, without knowing Mayor Coke, I assume
that he probably doesn't know a great deal about the
issue and probably just set a lot of things off
the top of his head. It was very offensive.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Yeah, well, look, we're going to take a very quick break.
If there are people who would like to join our conversation,
six one, seven, two, five, four, ten thirty six one seven,
nine three, one, ten thirty is the number. I think
that Mayor Coke regrets what he said. Today the Boston
(12:55):
Herald called for his resignation. I suspect he won't resign
over this, but that's a pretty strong statement for the
Boston Herald to make. Have you talked in the well?
When we get back, I want to ask you whether
you've talked in the last few days with with other survivors,
and if there are folks out there who want to
join the conversation. You have the number six, one, seven, two, five, four,
(13:17):
ten thirty six one seven, nine three one ten thirty.
I ask everybody uh to conduct themselves as we normally
do on Night Side, in good taste. Please don't try
to challenge my guest. He went on, he went through
an ordeal that the the Catholic Church in Fall River
(13:40):
has acknowledged occurred, and he is very brave to to
somehow survive that and also to come on the program
tonight back on Nightside. Right after this.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
Night Side with Dan Ray, I'm telling you Boston's News.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Radio, my guests lef he is a survivor of an
attack when he was eight years old by a priest
who made a habit of this. He served time in prison,
he passed away, and I was dealing with whatever afterlife
he deals with, and I suspect he will, I hope
(14:25):
will be judged fairly but harshly. Did you have a
chance to hear from other survivors, Claude, there's a group
called SNAP. Tell us about SNAP. It's a group that's
been around for a while of victims by the survivors,
I should say of a priest.
Speaker 4 (14:42):
SNAP stands for survivor and network abused by priests. I
believe he will found it in either nineteen eighty nine
or nineteen eighty nineteen ninety and they've been around about
thirty five years something like that. I've been associated with
them on way about three years as a leader. I
lead a support group and I do connect with other
survivors pretty routinely. Last weekend I connected with three in person.
(15:05):
I connected with two by a telephone. There are people
on the West coast that there are originally from Massachusetts
and followed me on the website and wanted to talk
to somebody who's based in New England. So I do
keep in touch with other survivors.
Speaker 5 (15:18):
It's a kind.
Speaker 4 (15:19):
Of a good thing for me. I do a lot
of emailing with people on Zoom meetings stuff, so I
feel kind of lucky to be able to do that.
It takes away from my feeling of being like isolated.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
But were there individuals who reached out to you as
a consequence of the interview with Mayor Coke on Monday
night and the subsequent publicity.
Speaker 4 (15:38):
No, not yet.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Okay, Well that's fine. That is fine if people are
interested in getting in touch with you, though I know
that you're available through the organization. How are most of
the survivors who you've dealt with, how are they doing?
You know, in some cases years after these horrific incidents,
(16:03):
are many of them able to live a healthy life?
Speaker 4 (16:11):
Seen many people to extremely badly affected by it, like
drug issues, very issues of being totally frightened all the time, isolated,
totally not able to hold a job. There are people
are intensely impacted by this. There are some people who
(16:31):
are similar to me that have been been lucky to
find help to cope with it. I've been for four
years going to a mental health center in Providence that
deals with sex abuse survivors. It was a good deal
for me that was to be able to litigate by
a Mitchell Garabedian against the diocese. That was a type
of therapy for it to face the diocese lawyer's questions
(16:54):
and have to like re examine and relived that to myself,
there was a type of a painful therapy. But I
feel lucky that I've been able to do that. Most
of the people that I see deal with my support
group do not have the resources I have available to me,
and many of them show that they have many problems.
They were disbelieved abused as kids their families who like
(17:18):
use the expression groomed that with their parents had relations
with the Catholic priests so that their parents didn't believe
them when they reported to their parents. But there are
people extremely negatively impacted, much more so than me and
my life. I have to say my life was kind
of screwed up in a lot of ways to what
happened to me. I think one big effect that it
(17:40):
had on me is my social functioning and my ability
to express myself and assert myself underneath my unconscious mind
out for all those years, I was like that frightened
and trapped little kid in the back room of the church,
And until my memory came back, I didn't know why
those feelings would haunt me. Sometimes they're just going to
(18:01):
have those feelings of being frightened with no logical region
of the present time. So that made me unable to
assert up myself in workplaces. I was picked on by
workplace bullies as a little kid. I was picked on
a lot by schoolyard bullies. So I kind of like
how to I would say that a lot of ways
out For a long time, I was kind of spiritually crushed.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
Well, I think anyone who's listening to this interview, anybody
who is listening to the conversation, he can hear it
in your voice. We've got to take a break for
news at the bottom of the hour, and again I
would invite folks to join the conversation. Six four ten thirty,
six seven, nine ten thirty. Coming right back on Nightside.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
You're on Night Side with Dan Ray on WBS Boston's
news radio.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
All right, my guest is Claude Leboufe. Claude is a
survivor of sexual assault by one of the first priests
to be called out for his actions, James Porter. I remember, uh,
James Porter very well. Never interviewed him or anything like that,
(19:18):
but he had he had left Massachusetts, and the Statute
of Limitations told uh, and so uh Claude when his
memory returned. Uh. And I want people to understand, your
memory returned, but it had been you know, blocked out
in your mind. In medical professionals understand that. And there's
(19:38):
no question in your mind what happened to you and
the impact that it had on you for most of
your life. Let's go to phone calls, Claude. I'm going
to start off with Bob, who's calling in from New Jersey. Bob,
appreciate you taking the time to call. If anyon would
like to join the conversation six one, seven, two, four,
ten thirty, we'll get the callers for the balance of
(19:59):
the hour. Go ahead, Bob.
Speaker 5 (20:02):
Good evening, Dan, and good evening, Claude. It's nice reuniting again,
uh I, Dan, I run an organization called Road to Recovery,
and uh we were able to assist Claud in a
small way in his attempt to get justice. But what
(20:22):
I wanted to talk most about was I'm so glad
you played those those segments from the interview with the mayor,
because I didn't realize some of the other parts of
the conversation, and it just it angered me again, and
it made me like I couldn't I couldn't believe what
he had said, and what he what he had said
(20:45):
at the Boston School Committee meeting was also very very well.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
He's he would be at the at the Quincy School Committee.
He's the mayor of Quincy.
Speaker 5 (20:55):
That's what I meant.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Did I don't want to confuse anybody, Okay.
Speaker 5 (21:01):
Right, because what he keeps he keeps trying to rationalize
the fact that homosexuals are the ones who abuse teenage boys.
For example, he said, Oh, it might be okay for
young kids that it's pedophilia, but for the older kids,
(21:22):
and it's that that argument against or argument with pedophilia
versus ephoebophelia. But a very astute FBI Sex Crimes Unit
person trained me years ago to say, listen, anybody who
was abused as a minor under the age of eighteen,
(21:46):
the person who abused him or her is a pedophile.
So homosexuals do not abuse children. Pedophiles do. So it
doesn't it's not gender identified. It's the fact fact that
it's a crime, and the pedophilia is the crime, and
it has nothing to do with you know, in fact,
(22:08):
you know, most most sexual abuse occurs within the household nationally. Yeah,
and of course it's fathers and again rights.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
As they say, when we try to uh sort of
make these divisions, I think it it is intended to
clarify the fact of the matter that these priests were
authority figures. That's what to me is uh is most offensive.
(22:45):
Whether they're scout leaders or Little League coaches or pop
one of coaches, their authority figures or teachers and uh
and they use their position of authority. Now in the case,
in Claude's case, CRD, you were attacked. I mean, there's
(23:06):
just no there's no two ways to describe it. This
was if you had walked into a building and there
was a person who attacked you. It was a moment
of opportunity for porter. He felt that you were there
alone and he could do what he wanted to do,
(23:28):
and that is you know, I mean he did it
to a lot of other people from your experience park
for him. Dealing with survivors, do you think that that
there are people out there who were victimized as children,
either by again a pedophile priest, which is a literative
(23:53):
or by a pedophile coach, or by a pedophile teacher,
or by a pedophile scout leader. Do you think that
there are a lot of people in our society who
have never come to grips with that. It took Claude
some time to come to grips with it.
Speaker 4 (24:08):
Clearly, I believe a lot of people may never recover
their memory. I think my theory is that the memory
gets buried a survival mechanism, and it probably comes back
when a person's ready to cope with the reality of
it and AE, Okay, it's like so overwhelming to be
sexually assaulted. It was just stuffing I could not cope with.
(24:29):
So I figured that that's my mind. My brain was
doing that as a survival thing to keep me from
a situation I had no way of coping with until
I was in my sixties when that memory came back
to me. I believe there's a lot of people that
probably will never have their memory come back. There's a
lot of people like me. I'm not an unusual person.
There are many people that will never come forward because
(24:50):
they've forgotten it and never get the memory back of
Some people are just never overcome the shameful and the
fearful feelings of it. Yeah, should be people like.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
Yeah, there should be no shame involved in someone who
is the subject of an assault and a sexual assault
and attack in your case by a full grown male,
a priest. Uh, it happens to be in your case.
Uh that is it's it's it's unacceptable, Bob, your experience.
(25:25):
I want you to answer that question as well. Uh,
do you think that there are a lot of people
out there like Claude who just either never recovered the
memory or have been unable to recover the memory, uh
and and basically will carry this with them for the
balance of their life through no fault of their own.
Speaker 5 (25:47):
Oh, absolutely, Dan, I'm also a survivor of clergy sexual abuse,
and I have repressed memories in my history as well.
It's because there's there's the cond just can't handle it
until what's ready. And boy, what a great relief it
is to know that people will accept that truth even
(26:11):
though it's many years later. And in my case, I
had two or three episodes of repressed memory. But yes,
there are too many to mention people out there who
don't have the advantage that I have of having been
in very, very extensive therapy. And I wish everybody could
(26:35):
have that what I have had.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
You know, let me ask you a question. And again,
you've had a lot of experience with other people, and
I know that you're a writer, and you've dealt into
this very very deeply in your own experience and others
and the experience of others. But my question to you
is which is still one that I kind of answer,
(27:00):
and that is that the the the church UH covered
this up, which to me is is even I don't
want to say, a greater crime than what Claude and
others were subjected to. But but have you ever figured
(27:21):
out why the church would have covered this up just
from a moral basis and not said we got to
deal with it, and we got to deal with it
you know soon, but also from a from a practical basis.
As they often say, the cover up is always worse
than the crime. Well, in this case, there's nothing that
could have been worse than what happened to Claude. But
(27:43):
the cover up makes it even even worse. Because these
priests were transferred, they were they were allowed to move
from parish to parish, from victim to victim. What was
going on in the mind of these leaders from Cardinal
Law right on down here in Boston.
Speaker 4 (28:02):
Dan, there are two reasons you want to release records
of that. There's a lot of bad actors being covered
up by the church when people livigate. That means that
lawyers get access to records, and that those records could
show the church to deal with some very not good people.
That's my propersonal theory.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
What Bob has to say in that, go ahead.
Speaker 5 (28:22):
Bob, Yeah, there are two other things though. The church
is concerned about two things, their image and their assets,
and those are the two things that have kept the
secrecy so deep, and it still continues to this day.
There's still you know, when a man becomes a cardinal,
(28:42):
for example, Cardinal O'Malley, when he knelt before the Pope
and was ordained a cardinal, he had to swear that
he would not reveal anything that would be scandalous to
the church. And that goes right down through the whole
culture of the church. Don't say anything and don't embarrass
(29:04):
the church and watch the assets.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
Yeah, well that all that almost serves as an excuse
for this for spineless leadership. I mean because.
Speaker 5 (29:17):
Absolutely yeah, and uh that.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
Is that is a dilemma that that a lot of people,
including me, will have a tough time getting my head around. Bob. Thanks,
thanks very much for checking in and thanks for the
work that you do.
Speaker 4 (29:34):
Bob.
Speaker 5 (29:35):
Nice to hear from you.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
Well, I appreciate you telling your story tonight. I'm going
to let you go. I I wish that none of
this ever happened to you. I hope that that for
the balance of your life, maybe even to a small extent,
what you did tonight will help you recover from what
(29:57):
was done to you. You're not recovering from something that
you caused. You're recovering from something that was done to you.
And I do appreciate your courage to come forward and
your courage to reach out to me in the wake
of the interview that I did on Monday. Thank you
so much for joining us tonight.
Speaker 4 (30:14):
Okay, okay, thanks for having me on JO.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
You're welcome. We keep in touch and I wish you
the best of everything. Thanks, thank you again.
Speaker 4 (30:25):
Okay, thanks very much, Jah welcome.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
Okay, thanks again. We have a few minutes left here,
and I would love to hear in the ten minutes
or so that we have left your thoughts, particularly those
of you who either still remain, you know, loyal Catholics.
How do you reconcile that those of you who are
struggling with that and those of you who have decided
(30:49):
that the church is no longer a place that you
want to associate with. Let's let's make the most of
the next twelve or so minutes, and then we're going
to talk about, ironically, FBI crimes. FBI crimes here in
Boston that you're probably familiar with, but one that took
place in Tulsa, Oklahoma, which is the root of which
(31:11):
is directly in Boston. And we'll talk to the authors
of two books, a man whose dad was killed as
part of an FBI cover up and the man who
wrote the book exposing it and laying it out, and
who also both of them wrote the book. But the
other man who will be here is the detective who
(31:32):
finally was able to get this corrupt FBI agent H.
Paul Rico under arrest in charge with the murder of
Roger Wheeler, David Wheeler's father. We'll get to that after
the ten o'clock news. Got time for a couple of
calls if you'd like. Six months seven two thirty, six
months seven, nine thirty back on nightside.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
It's Nice Eye with Dan Ray on w Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
All right, let's go to the phones. I want to
welcome Indra from Littleton, Massachusetts. Indra, thank you for calling.
How are you tonight?
Speaker 6 (32:08):
Oh I'm fine, Thank you for having me.
Speaker 5 (32:14):
Hello.
Speaker 2 (32:15):
Yep, go right ahead. Again. This is a tough issue
to to talk about, and it's it's tough to listen
to someone like Claude who who was subjected to this abuse.
I'd love to get your reaction to what you've heard.
Speaker 6 (32:31):
Well, Uh, not a lot of people believe this in anymore.
But I think someone who harms a child like that
is going to hell. Jesus talked about how I don't
think he was making it up, but I really think
someone like that is going to hell. One to most
Catholic I'm Protestants who have ever spoken to acknowledge that
(32:55):
this went on, as you don't find people who don't
don't acknowledge it anymore. And three, I'm asking any Catholic
in who's listening to pray for Claude and people like
him because it's so off.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
Yeah, it is cry I mean it's it's it's for me.
I happen to be a Catholic, but this certainly shook
my faith in the church, and I still shakes my
faith in the church. Again, the church is run by
human beings who who make mistakes. But I just still
(33:33):
the point I raised with Mayor Cooke on Monday night.
Uh still inexplicable to me that when Cardinal Law, who
I knew very well, was confronted with these this evidence,
there's no indication that this material was kept from him.
(33:53):
He knew about it, and I would have assumed that
his immediate response would have been to say, you know,
he did what to whom? Bring him now personally rip
off him? You know, you would think that that would
have been his reaction. But the reaction was they treated, uh,
(34:14):
these individuals and and and I guess when people are
have these pedophila philic impulses and they act on them, uh,
that there's really no cure. Uh. And they treated them
like they treated so called whiskey priests. The priests to on,
you know, Saturday night, we're alone and we're drinking too much,
(34:37):
that sort of. And they got them into sober houses
and in some cases had success with it. But you
don't treat you know, a broken leg, you know, differently
than than you do than the same as you treat
a heart attack. And that was the fatal mistake that
the church made. And also they allowed this to to continue.
(35:00):
I mean, it went on for you, it went on
for yours, and they had no mechanism within the church
to to to screen people out right. It's you know again,
I'm still astonished and astounded by it. And when I
when I talked with Mayor Koch on on Monday night.
(35:22):
It was clear that to me that he had kind
of a more a different view of it. And I
was hoping that I could kind of push him in
the direction, but he wanted to make those distinctions, which
when you're talking about eight year old kids, those distinctions
aren't worth anything.
Speaker 5 (35:40):
Anything, right, right, right?
Speaker 6 (35:42):
Well, and I and I say, you know, I am
a Protestant, and there are a lot of Catholics, wonderful Catholics,
really believing, heartfelt Catholics who are abhorred. It's an abhorrent
they just are abhorred by this, uh, the whole situation.
And so you know, I mean, I'm I I would say,
(36:04):
you know, don't lose your faith, keep believing and keep praying.
But when you somebody has like it, you can't hide
them away and just send them to another parish or
brush it over. You have to you have to really,
you know, deal.
Speaker 2 (36:18):
And yeah, we've we've found out that that that there
was there was a cardinal out of Washington, d C.
Who was involved in this sort of activity. Uh so
it it wasn't just priests, you know, it's it's it's
it's very dispariting.
Speaker 6 (36:39):
Oh, it's horrifying. But you have to say, there are
evil people everywhere and there are also good people. So
I mean, I wouldn't I I actually looked to a Catholic,
went to Salve Regina and wonderful people, wonderful, wonderful people.
This isters of mercy. And as I said, you know,
every single Catholic I've ever spoken to is like this
(37:00):
is absolutely horrible. It's discussing some people lost their faith
as they don't lose a lot of people.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
A lot of people didn't. Card I was referring to
was Cardinal Theodore mcarrick, who was a huge figure in
the Catholic church, and he eventually was was charged with
this sort of activity, and he was so old, and
I guess at that point he had lost his mind.
He was never tried for it, and he died, you know,
(37:26):
in isolation. But horrible, horrible. Andrew, thank you very much
for joining the conversation. I'm sure a lot of people
heard what you had to say, and we're gratified by
Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (37:37):
My pleasure.
Speaker 6 (37:38):
And as I said, nobody believes in hell anymore, but
that man is going there is already there.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
Well, if anybody I think, I think those guys do.
Thank you very much. Good night. We've got to take
a break here for the ten o'clock news. Some of
you are now calling late. I wish you called earlier.
That's okay, your choice. We tend to do our subjects
in our long blocks. When we get back when it
tell you a horrific story in which the criminality of
(38:07):
the Boston FBI office during the nineteen sixties, seventies, and
eighties not only affected people here in Massachusetts, in the
greater Boston area, but actually it went as far as
tells Oklahoma, Wait, do you hear this story? This is
the first time I've talked about this story. I've known
about it for a while. I'll talk with the authors
of two books, two authors of a book killing my Father.
(38:28):
Coming back after this
It's Night Side with Dan Ray on w b Z,
Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Thank you very much. Al. On Monday night this past week.
Of this week, Monday night, UH, we invited Mayor Tom
Cox caught Coke, excuse me, Tom Coke of Quincy, UH
to talk about, uh, the the two statues that he
(00:26):
hopes to be fixed and grace the entrance to a
new public safety building in Quincy. UH, two statues of
a Catholic Saint Saint Michael and Saint Flourian. And during
that conversation with Mayor Coke, somehow I started to talk about, uh,
the antipathy towards organized religion, and Mayor Coke made some
(00:53):
comments about the pedophile priest scandal UH in the archdiocese,
and we we had an exchange, UH. And I just
want to play a couple of the bites here just
to sort of reset this UH. And then we're going
to talk with a survivor of the pedophile priest crisis,
(01:18):
a man who is now seventy two UH and at
the age of eight was attacked by a Catholic priest
who eventually served time in prison. So this was me
UH talking in twenty three a rob about the lack
(01:40):
of leadership by specifically Cardinal burnand Law, the leaders of
the Catholic Church at the time, once they became aware
that there were young young people, including children, who had
been sexually assaulted by Catholic priests. This cut twenty three A.
(02:01):
It shocks me, and it shocks me that the leadership
of the church at the time, Cardinal Law didn't personally
ask that those priests who either who had been been
accused of taking advantage of children, that he didn't have
them come into his office so he could personally take
the caller away from them.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
But you know that, I mean we could, we could
spend a segment on that sometime. I mean that that
was mostly homosexual issues, on pedophilia, and well there were
a lot there were a.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Lot of children who were impacted and kids who were
or fourteen fifteen.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
Yeah, well pedophilia is a younger age and a teenagers.
But that's another issue for another day.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
So that is where the problem sort of started. And
we followed up with a little bit more conversation just
so you have a sense of it. If you didn't
listen to us on Monday night, I cut twenty three B. Rob,
I'm responding people, whether it's a teacher or a coach
or a clergyman, you know, take it takes advantage of
(03:11):
a kid thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen years old, they you know,
unacceptable in my opinion.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
Agreed, but just one final note on that. From my view,
the level of which it happens the teachers and coaches
and stuff is higher than it was percentage wizing the church.
You know that the church was, you know, not very
popular with the secular media, and so they it's a
good beating. You don't read about it every day when
(03:39):
it happens around the country and other circumstances. It's bad
and evil in any circumstance, but I don't believe the
media treats it equally into various situations where it happens.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
I was not going to try to challenge him on statistics,
but it seems to me that they there is a
higher level of responsibility amongst clergy members of any faith
Cut twenty three c.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
Rob You know that, I mean we could we could
spend a segment on that sometime. I mean that that
was mostly homosexual issues, on pedophilia, and you know, there
were a lot.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Of children who were impacted and kids who were were
thirteen fifteen.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
Yeah, well pedophilia is a younger age and any teenagers.
But that's another issue for another day.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
And then this is the last by twenty three D
just to give you a sense of the mayor's mindset.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
The the level of which it happens with teachers and
coaches and stuff is higher than it was percentage wizing
the church. You know that the church was, you know,
not very popular with the secular media, and so they
they took a beating. You don't read about it every
day when it happens around the country and other circumstances.
(04:59):
It's bad, an evil in any circumstance, but I don't
believe the media treats it equally in the various situations
where it happens.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
There's a phrase when someone's digging a hole for themselves,
he's the best advice you could give them is to
stop digging. And as much as I tried to in
a nice way, it was pretty clear that the man,
now the mayor, has his credit apologized for these remarks,
but it is I want to get it clarified, and
(05:31):
so I have invited today a gentleman who was sexually
assaulted by a Catholic priest father, James Porter, in Attleborough, Massachusetts,
when he was eight years old. I want to welcome
a survivor, Claude Leboeufe, who went on to have a
in some respects a difficult life, in other respects of
(05:52):
fairly normal life. Married first wife passed away, Claude told
me today, and he worked for many years in the
US Postal Service. Claude, thank you for having Uh reached
out to me. But I got to get your reaction.
(06:12):
It seemed to me that the mayor was focused on
he was looking past the problem. I think it's it's
probably fair to suggest what what is your reaction? I
want to tell us your story first. You you're an
eight year old boy, an eight year old boy who
was violently attacked by a priest father. I hate to
(06:36):
use the word father, but James Porter.
Speaker 4 (06:41):
Hi, dear, I'm glad to be here, very honored. So
I'll start off by saying that I did receive a
nicely worded apology from Mayor Koch Uh just today. I
was impressed by that because remarks were very offensive, but
he did give me a courageously and decent apology by
an email. So I'll start off by saying.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
That, Okay, that's that's that's kind of you to say
that as well to be to be your I thank
you for that, for that acknowledgment. I'll explain what happened
to you. What happened to you at eight was an
act of evil, criminal, criminality, evil, whatever you want to
(07:22):
call it. It's yeah, tell us as best you can,
you know, and again we talked about this today. I
think it's an adult audience. They will understand what you're
saying by using, you know, language that will describe it,
but the horror of it cannot be it cannot be understood.
Speaker 4 (07:41):
So what happened to me was in nineteen sixty one,
I was a student at Saint Joseph's Catholic Church in Attleborough, Massachusetts,
and one day I was an eight year old boy,
one of the nuns in the school gave me a
bundle of rods of prayer shawls. I'm not sure what
but to hang up in the closet in the back
room behind the altar in the church. And when I
(08:05):
went in there, James Porter attacked me and sodomized me.
At the time, I buried most of that memory. My
memory didn't fully return to me until my year twenty twenty,
what some people call recover memory. It is a controversial area,
but that's what happened to me. The way I remember
it was, I walked into the room and I could
(08:26):
see James Porter standing by a stained glass window, smiling
at me. I had a very vivid memory of his
smile abruptly turning into a scowl as he reached over
and grabbed a hold of me and bent me over
a table and sonomized me. I had to throw my
pants down. So what happened the memory I had back
(08:48):
then when as an eight year old boy, I remember
going into the room and then there was a skip,
almost like an old movie skim film skipping, and there
was like this middle part missing, and then I remember
my next memory back then was walking out with a
really severe pain in my butt, which is consistent with
(09:09):
being sodomized. I never reported anything to anyone because I
couldn't describe what had happened at the time. Well, so
in the year twenty twenty, that memory came back to
me in like gradual stages until I could finally describe
exactly what happened to me who did it? I did
a lot of work to find pictures of James Porter.
(09:31):
What he looked like is when he was a young man,
he was in his twenties, then at the time he
raped me. So anyway, I made a point of being
positive on who it was in the year twenty twenty one.
In twenty twenty two, I went back into the room.
I was able to go back there by talking a
maintenance man into opening up the church up for me
(09:51):
to tell him saying that I was looking for a
church to go to. So I got to go into
that room two separate weekdays in two years. And to
make sure that my remembrance is very accurate, that was
That was the room, and it was James Porter. And
the stained glass window was a particular trigger for me.
There was a lot of amber in the color of
(10:12):
the window, and I remember that amber color triggered me.
Why I went to a shrine that was about a
mile from the church, and if it's a different place,
they had a lot of stained glass, and I had
a lot of amber. And I went to that area
that trying just to walk around and I just went
into the church and I that amber colored stained glass
(10:33):
brought that memory back, and I remember at the time
of the extreme pain and my abb in and my butt,
I did not know what had happened quite yet, but
it was like the memory, kind of the muscle memory
from my being raped.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Well, I I talked, as I mentioned to you with
your returning today, Mitchell Garabedian, and he explained to me
that with this recovered memory, they go through a lot
of work to make sure that the person who is
who is coming forward is telling the truth. They review
medical records, they review school records, and eventually the Diocese
(11:10):
of the Fall River acknowledged what had happened to you.
James Porter spent time in prison. He died in two
thousand and five. But you were not the only child,
and you were a child at the age of eight
who suffered this horrific, horrific experience. I said in the
(11:34):
opening that thank goodness that you've lived a very I
would say successful life. You've had tragedies like most people have.
You lost your first wife, you remarried, you had a
career in the post office. When you heard about Mayor
(11:57):
Coke's comments, you didn't live and on. You weren't listening
on Monday night. What was your reaction, how much of
that came flooding back to you.
Speaker 4 (12:09):
I felt angry about the remarks, but I also understand
that a big problem that I see is that there's
a lot of negative opinion towards survivors. There's a lot
of misconceptions. So I, without knowing Mayor Coke, I assume
that he probably doesn't know a great deal about the
issue and probably just set a lot of things off
the top of his head. It was very offensive.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Yeah, well, look, we're going to take a very quick break.
If there are people who would like to join our conversation,
six one, seven, two, five, four, ten thirty six one seven,
nine three, one, ten thirty is the number. I think
that Mayor Coke regrets what he said. Today the Boston
(12:55):
Herald called for his resignation. I suspect he won't resign
over this, but that's a pretty strong statement for the
Boston Herald to make. Have you talked in the well?
When we get back, I want to ask you whether
you've talked in the last few days with with other survivors,
and if there are folks out there who want to
join the conversation. You have the number six, one, seven, two, five, four,
(13:17):
ten thirty six one seven, nine three one ten thirty.
I ask everybody uh to conduct themselves as we normally
do on Night Side, in good taste. Please don't try
to challenge my guest. He went on, he went through
an ordeal that the the Catholic Church in Fall River
(13:40):
has acknowledged occurred, and he is very brave to to
somehow survive that and also to come on the program
tonight back on Nightside. Right after this.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
Night Side with Dan Ray, I'm telling you Boston's News.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Radio, my guests lef he is a survivor of an
attack when he was eight years old by a priest
who made a habit of this. He served time in prison,
he passed away, and I was dealing with whatever afterlife
he deals with, and I suspect he will, I hope
(14:25):
will be judged fairly but harshly. Did you have a
chance to hear from other survivors, Claude, there's a group
called SNAP. Tell us about SNAP. It's a group that's
been around for a while of victims by the survivors,
I should say of a priest.
Speaker 4 (14:42):
SNAP stands for survivor and network abused by priests. I
believe he will found it in either nineteen eighty nine
or nineteen eighty nineteen ninety and they've been around about
thirty five years something like that. I've been associated with
them on way about three years as a leader. I
lead a support group and I do connect with other
survivors pretty routinely. Last weekend I connected with three in person.
(15:05):
I connected with two by a telephone. There are people
on the West coast that there are originally from Massachusetts
and followed me on the website and wanted to talk
to somebody who's based in New England. So I do
keep in touch with other survivors.
Speaker 5 (15:18):
It's a kind.
Speaker 4 (15:19):
Of a good thing for me. I do a lot
of emailing with people on Zoom meetings stuff, so I
feel kind of lucky to be able to do that.
It takes away from my feeling of being like isolated.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
But were there individuals who reached out to you as
a consequence of the interview with Mayor Coke on Monday
night and the subsequent publicity.
Speaker 4 (15:38):
No, not yet.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Okay, Well that's fine. That is fine if people are
interested in getting in touch with you, though I know
that you're available through the organization. How are most of
the survivors who you've dealt with, how are they doing?
You know, in some cases years after these horrific incidents,
(16:03):
are many of them able to live a healthy life?
Speaker 4 (16:11):
Seen many people to extremely badly affected by it, like
drug issues, very issues of being totally frightened all the time, isolated,
totally not able to hold a job. There are people
are intensely impacted by this. There are some people who
(16:31):
are similar to me that have been been lucky to
find help to cope with it. I've been for four
years going to a mental health center in Providence that
deals with sex abuse survivors. It was a good deal
for me that was to be able to litigate by
a Mitchell Garabedian against the diocese. That was a type
of therapy for it to face the diocese lawyer's questions
(16:54):
and have to like re examine and relived that to myself,
there was a type of a painful therapy. But I
feel lucky that I've been able to do that. Most
of the people that I see deal with my support
group do not have the resources I have available to me,
and many of them show that they have many problems.
They were disbelieved abused as kids their families who like
(17:18):
use the expression groomed that with their parents had relations
with the Catholic priests so that their parents didn't believe
them when they reported to their parents. But there are
people extremely negatively impacted, much more so than me and
my life. I have to say my life was kind
of screwed up in a lot of ways to what
happened to me. I think one big effect that it
(17:40):
had on me is my social functioning and my ability
to express myself and assert myself underneath my unconscious mind
out for all those years, I was like that frightened
and trapped little kid in the back room of the church,
And until my memory came back, I didn't know why
those feelings would haunt me. Sometimes they're just going to
(18:01):
have those feelings of being frightened with no logical region
of the present time. So that made me unable to
assert up myself in workplaces. I was picked on by
workplace bullies as a little kid. I was picked on
a lot by schoolyard bullies. So I kind of like
how to I would say that a lot of ways
out For a long time, I was kind of spiritually crushed.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
Well, I think anyone who's listening to this interview, anybody
who is listening to the conversation, he can hear it
in your voice. We've got to take a break for
news at the bottom of the hour, and again I
would invite folks to join the conversation. Six four ten thirty,
six seven, nine ten thirty. Coming right back on Nightside.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
You're on Night Side with Dan Ray on WBS Boston's
news radio.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
All right, my guest is Claude Leboufe. Claude is a
survivor of sexual assault by one of the first priests
to be called out for his actions, James Porter. I remember, uh,
James Porter very well. Never interviewed him or anything like that,
(19:18):
but he had he had left Massachusetts, and the Statute
of Limitations told uh, and so uh Claude when his
memory returned. Uh. And I want people to understand, your
memory returned, but it had been you know, blocked out
in your mind. In medical professionals understand that. And there's
(19:38):
no question in your mind what happened to you and
the impact that it had on you for most of
your life. Let's go to phone calls, Claude. I'm going
to start off with Bob, who's calling in from New Jersey. Bob,
appreciate you taking the time to call. If anyon would
like to join the conversation six one, seven, two, four,
ten thirty, we'll get the callers for the balance of
(19:59):
the hour. Go ahead, Bob.
Speaker 5 (20:02):
Good evening, Dan, and good evening, Claude. It's nice reuniting again,
uh I, Dan, I run an organization called Road to Recovery,
and uh we were able to assist Claud in a
small way in his attempt to get justice. But what
(20:22):
I wanted to talk most about was I'm so glad
you played those those segments from the interview with the mayor,
because I didn't realize some of the other parts of
the conversation, and it just it angered me again, and
it made me like I couldn't I couldn't believe what
he had said, and what he what he had said
(20:45):
at the Boston School Committee meeting was also very very well.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
He's he would be at the at the Quincy School Committee.
He's the mayor of Quincy.
Speaker 5 (20:55):
That's what I meant.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Did I don't want to confuse anybody, Okay.
Speaker 5 (21:01):
Right, because what he keeps he keeps trying to rationalize
the fact that homosexuals are the ones who abuse teenage boys.
For example, he said, Oh, it might be okay for
young kids that it's pedophilia, but for the older kids,
(21:22):
and it's that that argument against or argument with pedophilia
versus ephoebophelia. But a very astute FBI Sex Crimes Unit
person trained me years ago to say, listen, anybody who
was abused as a minor under the age of eighteen,
(21:46):
the person who abused him or her is a pedophile.
So homosexuals do not abuse children. Pedophiles do. So it
doesn't it's not gender identified. It's the fact fact that
it's a crime, and the pedophilia is the crime, and
it has nothing to do with you know, in fact,
(22:08):
you know, most most sexual abuse occurs within the household nationally. Yeah,
and of course it's fathers and again rights.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
As they say, when we try to uh sort of
make these divisions, I think it it is intended to
clarify the fact of the matter that these priests were
authority figures. That's what to me is uh is most offensive.
(22:45):
Whether they're scout leaders or Little League coaches or pop
one of coaches, their authority figures or teachers and uh
and they use their position of authority. Now in the case,
in Claude's case, CRD, you were attacked. I mean, there's
(23:06):
just no there's no two ways to describe it. This
was if you had walked into a building and there
was a person who attacked you. It was a moment
of opportunity for porter. He felt that you were there
alone and he could do what he wanted to do,
(23:28):
and that is you know, I mean he did it
to a lot of other people from your experience park
for him. Dealing with survivors, do you think that that
there are people out there who were victimized as children,
either by again a pedophile priest, which is a literative
(23:53):
or by a pedophile coach, or by a pedophile teacher,
or by a pedophile scout leader. Do you think that
there are a lot of people in our society who
have never come to grips with that. It took Claude
some time to come to grips with it.
Speaker 4 (24:08):
Clearly, I believe a lot of people may never recover
their memory. I think my theory is that the memory
gets buried a survival mechanism, and it probably comes back
when a person's ready to cope with the reality of
it and AE, Okay, it's like so overwhelming to be
sexually assaulted. It was just stuffing I could not cope with.
(24:29):
So I figured that that's my mind. My brain was
doing that as a survival thing to keep me from
a situation I had no way of coping with until
I was in my sixties when that memory came back
to me. I believe there's a lot of people that
probably will never have their memory come back. There's a
lot of people like me. I'm not an unusual person.
There are many people that will never come forward because
(24:50):
they've forgotten it and never get the memory back of
Some people are just never overcome the shameful and the
fearful feelings of it. Yeah, should be people like.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
Yeah, there should be no shame involved in someone who
is the subject of an assault and a sexual assault
and attack in your case by a full grown male,
a priest. Uh, it happens to be in your case.
Uh that is it's it's it's unacceptable, Bob, your experience.
(25:25):
I want you to answer that question as well. Uh,
do you think that there are a lot of people
out there like Claude who just either never recovered the
memory or have been unable to recover the memory, uh
and and basically will carry this with them for the
balance of their life through no fault of their own.
Speaker 5 (25:47):
Oh, absolutely, Dan, I'm also a survivor of clergy sexual abuse,
and I have repressed memories in my history as well.
It's because there's there's the cond just can't handle it
until what's ready. And boy, what a great relief it
is to know that people will accept that truth even
(26:11):
though it's many years later. And in my case, I
had two or three episodes of repressed memory. But yes,
there are too many to mention people out there who
don't have the advantage that I have of having been
in very, very extensive therapy. And I wish everybody could
(26:35):
have that what I have had.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
You know, let me ask you a question. And again,
you've had a lot of experience with other people, and
I know that you're a writer, and you've dealt into
this very very deeply in your own experience and others
and the experience of others. But my question to you
is which is still one that I kind of answer,
(27:00):
and that is that the the the church UH covered
this up, which to me is is even I don't
want to say, a greater crime than what Claude and
others were subjected to. But but have you ever figured
(27:21):
out why the church would have covered this up just
from a moral basis and not said we got to
deal with it, and we got to deal with it
you know soon, but also from a from a practical basis.
As they often say, the cover up is always worse
than the crime. Well, in this case, there's nothing that
could have been worse than what happened to Claude. But
(27:43):
the cover up makes it even even worse. Because these
priests were transferred, they were they were allowed to move
from parish to parish, from victim to victim. What was
going on in the mind of these leaders from Cardinal
Law right on down here in Boston.
Speaker 4 (28:02):
Dan, there are two reasons you want to release records
of that. There's a lot of bad actors being covered
up by the church when people livigate. That means that
lawyers get access to records, and that those records could
show the church to deal with some very not good people.
That's my propersonal theory.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
What Bob has to say in that, go ahead.
Speaker 5 (28:22):
Bob, Yeah, there are two other things though. The church
is concerned about two things, their image and their assets,
and those are the two things that have kept the
secrecy so deep, and it still continues to this day.
There's still you know, when a man becomes a cardinal,
(28:42):
for example, Cardinal O'Malley, when he knelt before the Pope
and was ordained a cardinal, he had to swear that
he would not reveal anything that would be scandalous to
the church. And that goes right down through the whole
culture of the church. Don't say anything and don't embarrass
(29:04):
the church and watch the assets.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
Yeah, well that all that almost serves as an excuse
for this for spineless leadership. I mean because.
Speaker 5 (29:17):
Absolutely yeah, and uh that.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
Is that is a dilemma that that a lot of people,
including me, will have a tough time getting my head around. Bob. Thanks,
thanks very much for checking in and thanks for the
work that you do.
Speaker 4 (29:34):
Bob.
Speaker 5 (29:35):
Nice to hear from you.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
Well, I appreciate you telling your story tonight. I'm going
to let you go. I I wish that none of
this ever happened to you. I hope that that for
the balance of your life, maybe even to a small extent,
what you did tonight will help you recover from what
(29:57):
was done to you. You're not recovering from something that
you caused. You're recovering from something that was done to you.
And I do appreciate your courage to come forward and
your courage to reach out to me in the wake
of the interview that I did on Monday. Thank you
so much for joining us tonight.
Speaker 4 (30:14):
Okay, okay, thanks for having me on JO.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
You're welcome. We keep in touch and I wish you
the best of everything. Thanks, thank you again.
Speaker 4 (30:25):
Okay, thanks very much, Jah welcome.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
Okay, thanks again. We have a few minutes left here,
and I would love to hear in the ten minutes
or so that we have left your thoughts, particularly those
of you who either still remain, you know, loyal Catholics.
How do you reconcile that those of you who are
struggling with that and those of you who have decided
(30:49):
that the church is no longer a place that you
want to associate with. Let's let's make the most of
the next twelve or so minutes, and then we're going
to talk about, ironically, FBI crimes. FBI crimes here in
Boston that you're probably familiar with, but one that took
place in Tulsa, Oklahoma, which is the root of which
(31:11):
is directly in Boston. And we'll talk to the authors
of two books, a man whose dad was killed as
part of an FBI cover up and the man who
wrote the book exposing it and laying it out, and
who also both of them wrote the book. But the
other man who will be here is the detective who
(31:32):
finally was able to get this corrupt FBI agent H.
Paul Rico under arrest in charge with the murder of
Roger Wheeler, David Wheeler's father. We'll get to that after
the ten o'clock news. Got time for a couple of
calls if you'd like. Six months seven two thirty, six
months seven, nine thirty back on nightside.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
It's Nice Eye with Dan Ray on w Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
All right, let's go to the phones. I want to
welcome Indra from Littleton, Massachusetts. Indra, thank you for calling.
How are you tonight?
Speaker 6 (32:08):
Oh I'm fine, Thank you for having me.
Speaker 5 (32:14):
Hello.
Speaker 2 (32:15):
Yep, go right ahead. Again. This is a tough issue
to to talk about, and it's it's tough to listen
to someone like Claude who who was subjected to this abuse.
I'd love to get your reaction to what you've heard.
Speaker 6 (32:31):
Well, Uh, not a lot of people believe this in anymore.
But I think someone who harms a child like that
is going to hell. Jesus talked about how I don't
think he was making it up, but I really think
someone like that is going to hell. One to most
Catholic I'm Protestants who have ever spoken to acknowledge that
(32:55):
this went on, as you don't find people who don't
don't acknowledge it anymore. And three, I'm asking any Catholic
in who's listening to pray for Claude and people like
him because it's so off.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
Yeah, it is cry I mean it's it's it's for me.
I happen to be a Catholic, but this certainly shook
my faith in the church, and I still shakes my
faith in the church. Again, the church is run by
human beings who who make mistakes. But I just still
(33:33):
the point I raised with Mayor Cooke on Monday night.
Uh still inexplicable to me that when Cardinal Law, who
I knew very well, was confronted with these this evidence,
there's no indication that this material was kept from him.
(33:53):
He knew about it, and I would have assumed that
his immediate response would have been to say, you know,
he did what to whom? Bring him now personally rip
off him? You know, you would think that that would
have been his reaction. But the reaction was they treated, uh,
(34:14):
these individuals and and and I guess when people are
have these pedophila philic impulses and they act on them, uh,
that there's really no cure. Uh. And they treated them
like they treated so called whiskey priests. The priests to on,
you know, Saturday night, we're alone and we're drinking too much,
(34:37):
that sort of. And they got them into sober houses
and in some cases had success with it. But you
don't treat you know, a broken leg, you know, differently
than than you do than the same as you treat
a heart attack. And that was the fatal mistake that
the church made. And also they allowed this to to continue.
(35:00):
I mean, it went on for you, it went on
for yours, and they had no mechanism within the church
to to to screen people out right. It's you know again,
I'm still astonished and astounded by it. And when I
when I talked with Mayor Koch on on Monday night.
(35:22):
It was clear that to me that he had kind
of a more a different view of it. And I
was hoping that I could kind of push him in
the direction, but he wanted to make those distinctions, which
when you're talking about eight year old kids, those distinctions
aren't worth anything.
Speaker 5 (35:40):
Anything, right, right, right?
Speaker 6 (35:42):
Well, and I and I say, you know, I am
a Protestant, and there are a lot of Catholics, wonderful Catholics,
really believing, heartfelt Catholics who are abhorred. It's an abhorrent
they just are abhorred by this, uh, the whole situation.
And so you know, I mean, I'm I I would say,
(36:04):
you know, don't lose your faith, keep believing and keep praying.
But when you somebody has like it, you can't hide
them away and just send them to another parish or
brush it over. You have to you have to really,
you know, deal.
Speaker 2 (36:18):
And yeah, we've we've found out that that that there
was there was a cardinal out of Washington, d C.
Who was involved in this sort of activity. Uh so
it it wasn't just priests, you know, it's it's it's
it's very dispariting.
Speaker 6 (36:39):
Oh, it's horrifying. But you have to say, there are
evil people everywhere and there are also good people. So
I mean, I wouldn't I I actually looked to a Catholic,
went to Salve Regina and wonderful people, wonderful, wonderful people.
This isters of mercy. And as I said, you know,
every single Catholic I've ever spoken to is like this
(37:00):
is absolutely horrible. It's discussing some people lost their faith
as they don't lose a lot of people.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
A lot of people didn't. Card I was referring to
was Cardinal Theodore mcarrick, who was a huge figure in
the Catholic church, and he eventually was was charged with
this sort of activity, and he was so old, and
I guess at that point he had lost his mind.
He was never tried for it, and he died, you know,
(37:26):
in isolation. But horrible, horrible. Andrew, thank you very much
for joining the conversation. I'm sure a lot of people
heard what you had to say, and we're gratified by
Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (37:37):
My pleasure.
Speaker 6 (37:38):
And as I said, nobody believes in hell anymore, but
that man is going there is already there.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
Well, if anybody I think, I think those guys do.
Thank you very much. Good night. We've got to take
a break here for the ten o'clock news. Some of
you are now calling late. I wish you called earlier.
That's okay, your choice. We tend to do our subjects
in our long blocks. When we get back when it
tell you a horrific story in which the criminality of
(38:07):
the Boston FBI office during the nineteen sixties, seventies, and
eighties not only affected people here in Massachusetts, in the
greater Boston area, but actually it went as far as
tells Oklahoma, Wait, do you hear this story? This is
the first time I've talked about this story. I've known
about it for a while. I'll talk with the authors
of two books, two authors of a book killing my Father.
(38:28):
Coming back after this
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