September 24, 2025 • 37 mins
Do students really need a college degree? With growing criticism over higher education, how is higher ed reinventing itself? For a parent or student who might be worried about a future career mixed with the daunting reality of student loan debt, is a college education still a sound investment or is it unnecessary considering today’s changing economy? Newly instated President of Brandeis University, Arthur Levine is looking beyond the horizon on what higher education should be in the future joined us to discuss.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
It's Night Side with Dan Ray on WBS Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
You know, I would say that the Red Sox are
probably going to be okay tonight, that is for sure.
Seven zip. The Toronto Blue Jays are. They're wounded birds
right now. The Red Sox might be helping the Yankees
clinch the division, but it'll all play out of the
next few nights, next few days, so worry not, that
(00:30):
is for sure. I am delighted tonight to welcome to
the night Side audience. Introduced to the night Side audience
man who I spoke with for the first time today,
President Arthur Levine. He's the president of Brandeis University. Brandeis University,
of course, a great, great university in Waltham, Massachusetts, founded
(00:51):
in the year nineteen forty eight, which I quoth to
President Levine and myself also have a special connections with
that year. Professor Levine, I'll just leave that at that.
How are you this evening?
Speaker 3 (01:07):
Very good, Thank you, it's nice to be with you.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Well. You have had an amazing career. You graduated from
Brandeis in nineteen seventy. You have served as president of
Teachers College at Columbia University, for twelve years around the
time of the turn of the century, from ninety four
to two thousand and six. You then were the president
(01:30):
of the Institute for Citizens and Scholars. From two thousand
and six to twenty nineteen, you had also served as
the president of Bradford College here in Massachusetts. Also chaired
the Higher Education Graduate Program and Institute of Educational Management
at the Harvard Graduate School of Education. You've received honorary
doctorate degrees from twenty six universities, and you've been awarded
(01:54):
fellowships by the Carnegie, the Guggenheim, the Fulbright, and Rockefellow Foundations.
I would say that you have spent your entire life,
your career in positions of influence and prominence in higher education.
But you were sounding and alarmed that things have to
change in higher education, and you have some very interesting thoughts.
(02:19):
Let me start off right now today, how dramatically must
higher education, meaning colleges and universities and postgraduate educations, this
fundamental change or is it changes around the edges.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
It's fairly fundamental changes. And what's going on in the
country is that we are changing profoundly. We're changing rapidly.
Were prey, We're changing continuously. We're moving from a national
analog in dustrial economy to a global digital knowledge economy.
(02:59):
The demographics so the country are changing, the economy is changing,
technology is changing, Globalization is occurring. In politics for sure,
changing too. The end result is that the last time
we had change of this magnitude was the Industrial Revolution,
(03:20):
and that was a time which higher education was transformed.
We're going through exactly the same period now in which
higher education needs to be regeared to a new world.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Okay, I take from that, and I want to make
sure I understand it. I take from that that people
are being educated, they're earning degrees, but they're not learning
the skill set which will provide for them the foundation
of careers and the foundations the foundation of jobs in
(04:00):
the economy. That's what I'm hearing. Am I not hearing
a time?
Speaker 3 (04:05):
That's what I'm saying. You know, there's this wonderful quote
from Henry Adams, who was a journalist and he was
a historian, and two of his progenitors were president of
the United States, and he attended Harvard in the mid
nineteenth century, and he lamented the fact that he'd gotten
an eighteenth century education and was living in the world
(04:28):
plunging into the twentieth century. There are times when the
world changes so very, very quickly. Did all our social
institutions get left behind and have to remake themselves to
fit into the newly emerging world? And this is one
of those moments.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Okay, So how would you compare this moment to the
most recent period where there were tremendous changes? And I
would argue that in the nineteen nineties there were tremendous
changes with the arrival of the Internet and all sorts
of community cation devices, cell phones and laptop computers. That
(05:05):
was a period of change and people had to develop
a skill set that they had not learned. And maybe
they're learning that now in colleges and universities. How dramatic
is the change that we're approaching or the change that
we are in compared to the most recent change that
I've identified. Maybe there's a better corollary for you to
(05:29):
speak about, but I would speak about that. How does
if that was a tremor, is this an earthquake? Or
if that was a snowstorm, is this going to be
a blizzard? Tell us give us a metaphor.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
The metaphor I views is that that was just the
beginning of what's happening now. Okay, Now, what we saw
then was the advent of digital tools and digital access
and all that, and it's led to a world in
which things are profoundly different, and which the economy is different,
in which manufacturing jobs have disappeared and knowledge working jobs
(06:07):
have appeared. And it's a time in which demographics of
the country are switching dramatically. In the nineteen sixties, I
think it was that sixty two percent of the population
lived in New England, the Midwest, or the Middle Atlantic states,
and now it's thirty eight percent. The country's moving, the
(06:29):
country's changing color, the country's aging. It's a very different
time and very different technologies.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
So all of these societal trends are washing over colleges
and universities. So my final question before we go to
break is, if you, armed with the knowledge that you
have amassed over time, we're an eighteen year old contemplating
heading to college, or if you're grandson a granddaughter came
(07:02):
to you and said, what should I major in? And
give me, if not the name, give me the type
of college that I will benefit the most from.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
What's a tough question to answer right now, because what's
happening is most colleges to have a fairly dated curriculum.
It was a curriculum that prepared their parents to the world,
but it's not necessarily going to prepare them for the
world when the world changes quickly. What happens is this
(07:34):
higher education is most successful when it has one foot
in the library and one foot in the street. In English,
what that means is the library is the accumulated knowledge
of humanity and the streets the real world. When the
world changes quickly, colleges and universities, as well as every
other social institution, loses traction with the street, and that
(07:57):
needs to be restored. So what I would tell that
personal asks me, look for a college that's built its
program for the global digital knowledge economy, and don't take
a vocational course. They thoughts it won't give you the skills.
Those vocational skills will have a half life that's getting
(08:19):
shorter and shorter and shorter, and there won't be much
good in the next spot to six years.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
So when you talk about vocational skills, I assume you're
talking about HVAC plumbing, becoming an electrician. Is that what
I'm am I mischaracterizing that term?
Speaker 3 (08:38):
No, I mean, but it also goes beyond that. It's
also the business program it's also the health programs. It's
also the all those programs need to be updated. And
tell you what, when we come back from the break,
I'll tell you how good.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
That's a perfect segue and to tease. So, my guest
is the president of Brandeis University, Arthur Levine. I spent
about twenty minutes with him on the phone today and
I was very, very impressed. I'm not easily impressed because
I get a chance to talk to a lot of
interesting people, including other college presidents, over time. But he
(09:16):
is a great communicator, and he also has ideas that
really you're making me think, and if you stay with us,
I think you'll be thinking as we go along. And
if you'd like to join the conversation and ask a question,
the numbers has always remained six, one, seven, two, five,
four to ten thirty six one seven, nine, three, one,
ten thirty. We'll be back after this quick break on
night side with the president of Brandeis University. Brandeis University
(09:40):
seventy seven years young, a great university, obviously named for
the Supreme Court Justice Lewis Bryan. Brandei's president, Arthur Levine.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
You're on Night Side with Dan Ray on w b Z,
Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
With us as the president of Brandeis University, Arthur Levine.
When we ended, President Levine was talking about the changes
that need to be made, and I asked him a
hypothetical question as to if he were going to apply
to college today or if he had a grandson of
granddaughter who was in the process, what would he be
looking for. And he said that he would be a
(10:19):
little bit more specific in his answer when we finished
the last segment. So, President Levine, the floor is yours.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
Well, thank you. It's a lovely floor. What I would
say is that we're living in a time in which
twenty to twenty five percent of all colleges are going
to close over the next two decades. It's also a
time in which community colleges are going to be increasingly online,
(10:48):
and so will regional public universities. What that means is
that the liberal arts colleges which are many in New England,
and research universities, which are many in New England when
brandize is both will really determine the shape of higher
head to come. So when I got to Brandeis last November.
(11:08):
When I got there, I spoke to the faculty and
what I told them was, this is the time in
which we need to reinvent the liberal arts and what
that meant to turn that into English. Every college has
a set of general requirements all students.
Speaker 4 (11:25):
Are intended to take, and what I.
Speaker 3 (11:29):
Asked the faculty to do was update them. Now they
prepare students for industrial America, Let's change them. Let's make
them prepare students for the global digital knowledge economy. And
tell you what, why don't we focus on the skills
and knowledge students need to live in that world, Things
(11:52):
like communications, things like problem solving, things like the capacity
to change, things like resilience is like problem solving. Let's
teach those things to students, and let's do something else.
Let's focus on careers. The Liberal arts have always been practical,
(12:12):
so let's do this. When students arrive at Brandeis on
day one, let's give them both an academic advisor and
a career advisor. And next, let's do this. It's fine
to take courses, but students need to understand how those
courses are translated in the real world. They need to
(12:33):
understand how they translate into experience. So we want to
give them experiential education. We want to give them internships
virtual and real. And then next what we want to
do is we want to give them a second transcript.
The first transcript is real familiar. What it does is
it lists the courses the students has taken and it
(12:55):
lists the grades. In the second transcript, that we want
to do is list career align competencies that students have achieved,
those kinds of things that our employers are looking for
in the people they hire. Those will be put into
the transcript. There will not be a record of what
students were taught. There'll be a record of what students
(13:18):
know and students can do, and we hope they'll use
this transcript throughout their lives. Let's also say it set
up a lab and let's figure out how things like AI,
artificial intelligence and virtual reality can fit into the curriculum
and the ways in which we teach. And finally, I
asked the faculty reorganize yourself, which is a big deal
(13:41):
to ask a faculty. We were organized the way all
colleges seem to be. We're organized into a College of Arts,
and sciences, and we're organized into professional schools, and I said,
let's join them. Let's create a school of Arts, Humanities
and the application of call. Sure, let's create a school
(14:02):
of Science and the applications of engineering and technology. Let's
create a College of Economics and the application of business.
Let's create a College of Social Sciences and social policy.
The idea is that every student will get the underlying
subject matter that animates the professions. I will also be
(14:25):
in a school in which they can see them applied
in the form of profession.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
That is a quite a task that you're undertaking. This
you've thought about this. I know you published a book
ten years ago on this subject, and I'm sure that
over time your thoughts have changed. But that is an
ambitious overhaul.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
I was very lucky. I've presented this to the faculty
in January. We spent two months. I have told the
faculty ain't get anything done unless we do this together.
And we must have held sixteen meetings. After a faculty
meeting in January and in March, there was a secret
(15:11):
ballot and eighty eight percent of the faculty voted and
favor this plan, which shocked me. In any college in
university in America, you can't get eighty eight percent of
the faculty do greeted tomorrow's Thursday?
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Okay, So let me ask you. Let me ask you
a couple of quick questions here. Okay, As you change
the course, as you changed everything that the universities are
going to offer, the way in which they offer it,
what is being taught now in your regular liberal arts
(15:45):
university that has to be eliminated. So, for example, will
students still read Shakespeare? Learn Shakespeare? Will they still study
courses on Western civilization? Will history be downgraded? Seems to
be like science, as science and applied scientists will be upgraded.
There's only so much time in the calendar day, and
(16:08):
in a calendar month, and in the year and all
of that. If you add things to the formula, some
things have to go.
Speaker 3 (16:18):
What would go well? Except I think what's different is
we're putting an accent to a different fallable or a
different syllable. What we're saying is, if you study history,
what we want you to learn by having done that
is that to write. If you're studying English and you're
studying Shakespeare, we want you to take that to learn
(16:39):
how to communicate. If you're studying anthropology, we want you
to take that to understand resilience in how societies go forth.
So we're focusing on the competencies rather than the specific
subject matters, but they'll still study the same things. How
came in education without Shakespeare?
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Yeah, well, that would be a question that would would
pop into my mind. But again, I'm a baby boomer
as you are, and we were taught quite differently back
back in the day. Although I think that it's stood
the test of time for us. We have a test
of time and it's called a news break at the
bottom of the hour. So, my guest, you're listening to
(17:24):
Brandize University professor, but you learned segues in communications in
this business exactly.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
That's why you take Shakespeare.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Yes, President Arthur Levine a Brandeis University, he's talking about
really a fundamental change in the way young people, people
who are today in elementary school, in junior high school,
will need to be educated, for that matter, even high school.
So the pressure is on. Feel free to ask a question,
(17:55):
because that's how all of us learn. I don't have
all the questions and I have none of the answers.
So you have someone with a lot of answers and
a lot of ideas. You can you can plumb the
mind of a university professor at six one, seven, two,
four thirty, six one seven, nine three, one, ten thirty.
We'll be back right after the newscast at the bottom
(18:16):
of the hour.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
You're on Night Side with Dan Ray on w b Z,
Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
Professor Levine, I'm going to be remiss if I don't
ask you two part questions. And the first can be
a yes or no, and the second you can amplify,
however you would like.
Speaker 3 (18:33):
One, tell you what how about no? And now go
on to the.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
The first one. Is there too many administrative officer officers,
uh dean's, assistant deans and all of that at some
of the finest universities in America, and and and too
few faculty?
Speaker 3 (18:56):
You're not sharing to give a yes or a no?
Would I say to that?
Speaker 2 (19:00):
Is? Well? Is it out of balance? Is it out
of balance? Have we not maintained our levels of faculty
to students? But we have increased our levels to again,
call them assistant deans, call them administrators, whatever you want.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
You know, there are more administrators now than there used
to be. But there's also more compliance required by government
and other organizations. They're also we have more lawyers on
our staffs because of the rising number of lawsuits, rising
numbers of issues that face institutions. We have more financial people.
(19:42):
We need more people in financial aid because it's become
so much more complex and it's so important to students.
So that I view administration, they're all there to serve.
And if we find is that some of those offices
are now getting so big they're not serving, that's a
bad condition. But the reality is, I don't think anybody
(20:04):
decided let's just pump up the number of administrators.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
My great friend Harvey silver Glad, who's an extraordinary lawyer,
defense lawyer and the thinker, the founder of the Foundation
of Individual Rights and Expression, one of the founders. He
is convinced that at the great universities of reputation in
this country we have, they have become over they've become
(20:28):
bloated with administrators at the and fewer faculty. Classes have
become too large, too many of those first year courses
where there's three hundred, four hundred, five hundred kids in
a course in a class. And then the other question,
which I have to ask is you said that at
most universities you kind of get eighty eight percent of
(20:48):
faculty agree upon anything, never mind the reforms that you
have so eloquently spoken of. I would challenge that a
little bit and say that at a lot of schools,
if you had the vote between a Democrat and a
Republican for president or a conservative liberal, that it's going
to be skewed to the left philosophically. Do you agree
(21:11):
with that? Do you accept that concept or is it
way off base in your opinion?
Speaker 3 (21:17):
I think it's mildly accurate. And let me explain why
I'm using the word mildly, which is university skew liberal,
but they're not without conservative faculty. The notion that liberal
that university has become these bastions for far left is
an absurd notion to politicize the university. It's deceptive and
(21:42):
it's also inaccurate the simple reality. And let me go
back to your last question, which is to say I
know it places like brandeis our student faculty ratio.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
Is ten to one.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
I can't tell you what our administrative ratio is, but
we really careful we higher administrators. Okay, I'd much rather
have people engaged in teaching and learning that I'd rather
than having people who administer the place.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
Do you think the administrative relationship between students is higher
than faculty or lower than faculty? You may not be
able to lower much lower. Okay, fine, I will dispute you.
I think that I've seen study after study after study, uh,
in which college professors, you know, across the across the land,
(22:30):
will identify much more easily. And I've and I have
faculty members in universities around the country who call the show,
been on the show, and they talk about how they
feel at you know, at a faculty, meaning you know
that they they are they are in the minority. I
mean they are really We have a lot of diversity
at universities, but one of the things I don't think
(22:50):
we have is philosophical diversity. And and that's something I
would be remiss if I do not make that pitch
to you. Yeah, brands might be exacts.
Speaker 3 (23:01):
That No, we're agreeing, they skew liberal, but they're not
far left. The other thing I'd say about that is
I think people have a misimpression both of students and
this faculty. I've written a whole bunch of books about
college students in the nineteen sixties, a majority of students
could have been described as center left or center right.
(23:25):
It wasn't far left as people imagined. And even at
the height of student protest, most universities didn't have protests.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
True. True. The reason I say that is there was
this conel professor I forget his name for a moment,
but in the wake of October seventh he publicly said
he was exhilarated by what happened on October seventh in Israel.
And I thought to myself, how can you be a
human being, and oh better yet, be a professor at
(23:56):
an Ivy League college and even express that. But let's
we'll let that.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
Let's take that point. Yeah, And what I tell you
is that's appalling, right, That's not only a question of
being a professor, that's a question of being a human being. Absolutely,
some people die in the fashion they did on October seventh.
How anybody can applaud that, I think is sick and
(24:22):
a shame.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
Well, you saw a lot of protests that Columbia, and
you know there were a couple of college presidents who
are unable to answer questions in Congress. In December of
that year who are no longer are college president, including
the college president of Harvard University former college president Claude
Deine Gay. And again I just I mentioned that I
got packed lines for you. So if you're ready, let's
(24:45):
buckle up.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
Okay, one second, let me just respond to that.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
Juggle ahead and.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
Say we got a problem with colleges and universities and
the way they speak to the world. Yes, they speak
in academis as opposed to English.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
Yes, I'm with you.
Speaker 3 (24:58):
The college presidents who went before Congress were lined up
before a firing squad, and we're entirely unprepared for what
they had to face.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
I want to know who prepped them, the people with
the people who prepped.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
Him exactly right. They did a terrible job.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
If you ever get called in front of Congress, I'll
be more than happy to come over and spend an
hour with you.
Speaker 3 (25:23):
You do real well enough?
Speaker 2 (25:26):
No, no, no, no, trust me, It would trust me.
Ten minutes would be enough. Let me go to Mike
and high end as Mike, you are first tonight with
the president of Brandeis University, President Arthur Olivy, and go
right ahead, Mike.
Speaker 4 (25:38):
Gentlemen, good evening, Dan, first time a long time. Thanks
for having me on.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
Well, first time call always gets a round in the class.
Speaker 3 (25:44):
Thank you very much, my thank you.
Speaker 4 (25:49):
The concern that I have, you know, I did the
typical college, grad school, that sort of thing. I'm a
kid in college now large university in England, so with
you know, what I keep hearing is is change, a
lot of change. He's a freshman now with the with
the unfortunate you know, debt that he's going to.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
Accumulate just racked up over the.
Speaker 3 (26:16):
Next four years. I guess you know.
Speaker 4 (26:19):
My My question is why aren't colleges changing fast enough
to meet this demand of a twenty first century workforce,
really by offering them those real professional skills that they need.
Speaker 3 (26:33):
That's a great question. And what I'd say is change
meets up on people so that one day people tell
you God, they're doing a great job, and then next
day they tell you, oh my god, this thing costs
too much, this thing is behind the times. You never change.
What happens is the change is occurring faster. Any institution
(26:56):
you can think of is in the same shape. Whether
we're talking about government, whether it's talking about social service agencies,
whether we're talking about many businesses. They're facing a world
that's unfamiliar. I need a study of how newspapers, how Hollywood,
how the music industry faced this new world. They're facing
(27:19):
the same conditions as colleges, and they did a great
job of responding until digital technology. Digital technology ate the lunch.
They put newspapers out of business. In addition, what we
watched was streaming replace Hollywood studios, and we watched that
(27:41):
as the music industry was overtaken by Apple. It's a
time now in which your complaints are real mic and
we need to address them. If we're going to serve
our students. Well, we've had a chance, no time. Do
it change or it's not going to work for the
(28:04):
people we enroll.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
My great question, I think I got a really good
answer to and I hope it will be accomplished in
time for your for your son.
Speaker 3 (28:14):
Thank you.
Speaker 4 (28:14):
I hope so as well appreciate it. I appreciate the time.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
Thanks Mike, call again, looking forward to call her number
two with from Mike and hiatus. Thanks Mike. Take a
quick break here, very quick break. I'm going to try
as best I can to get the next four people
who are in line on the air, and all of
you are going to have to ask questions and be
as direct as you can. I will be direct with you.
I know the president of Brandi's, Arthur Levine, will be
(28:38):
direct with you. And we'll be back to be direct
right after.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
This night side with Dan Ray on WBS Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Welcome back. My guest is the president of Brandeis University,
Arthur Levine. And by the way, I have such a
great audience. Professor, a professor at a graduate school. I'm
not going to identify him. Reminded me that the name
of that Cornell professor who made that appalling statement about
being exhilarated after the horrific events of October seventh, he
(29:16):
he just he was He was speaking at a rally
in support of Palestinians. His name is Professor Russell Rickford
of Cornell and he has been at Cornell now since
twenty fourteen. He did issue an apology and then took
(29:38):
a leave of absence. He is now back teaching at Cornell.
And again, just a horrific comment that that was that
that was just he said it was exhilarating, and that
was the adjective that he used let's get back to
the call to the calls here on night Side from
(29:59):
my guests, President Arthur Levine, President of Brandeis University, Rachel
and Rachel. You're on with President Levine. Go righthead, Rachel.
Speaker 5 (30:09):
Hydian, Nice talk to you. So I kind of bounced
in at the beginning of a conversation you had mentioned
and you asked something very important about vocational.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
Yes, go ahead, ask you ask, ask you a question,
get your clarification, but get right to it, Rachel.
Speaker 5 (30:30):
So my clarification is we have people that go to
school after high school that go for vocational that want
to be electricians, right, all.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Of the all of the trades, right, yep, what's your question?
Speaker 5 (30:48):
We want to do the trades and you know what,
they don't want to sit in the classroom because Rachel.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Rachel, please, Rachel please, what is your question for President Levine?
Speaker 6 (30:58):
What's your question?
Speaker 5 (30:59):
Is I actually want to know his feeling about the
vocational I miss that.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
Okay, you hold on and you'll you'll get a quick
recap from President Levine of that part of the program
that you're missed. Professor, your.
Speaker 3 (31:15):
Countries do better than others on the vocational issue. With
Rachel Germany, for example, has two tracks, and what it
has is intersections between the two tracks. So I can
decide to be a plumber and I can do that
for a really long time and then decide, you know what,
I want to move on and be an engineer now
who deals with plumbing and water and other kinds of things.
(31:35):
I think a system that allows people to move between
occupation to provide the career ladder is a great one.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
That would be a change question Germany.
Speaker 5 (31:46):
What about the USA?
Speaker 3 (31:49):
They can become that doing nearly as well as we
ought to Rachel. In this regard, we don't prepare people
for that world. And we're living in a time in
which is essential that people get post secondary education after
high school in order to be guaranteed a job.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
Rachel, thank you very much for a great question. Thank you.
Let me go to Dennis and Lowell. Dennis next on
nice side with President of Brandai's University, Arthur Levine.
Speaker 6 (32:15):
Go right ahead, Dennis, yep, good evening, Dan and doctor Levine.
I also have a grandson who's a freshman in college,
and I just say it's a very interesting time and
being from Lowell, we started the industrial revolution. Anyway, My
question has to do. Could you talk about the effect
(32:35):
and future of AI, artificial intelligence on everything.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
Sure, that's a great question, President, Mister President.
Speaker 3 (32:41):
It's a wonderful question, and I wish I had a
really good answer. What I tell you is, AI's this
incredible tool, and every time a new tool emerges, what
we first see are all the disadvantages. Oh my goodness,
it's going to help people cheat. The reality is it
provides new ways of teaching. It would allow us to
(33:04):
create a GPS for learning such SAT as a student
studies as opposed to taking a term, an examine at
the end of a term or an end of a year.
As soon as that student's off base, what we have
the capacity to do now with AI is telling them, whoops,
you're off base, and here's what you ought to do.
Here's how you work this out, here's what you ought
(33:26):
to be doing. We're going to be able to do
with individualized study for all students, and that's coming and
it's going to come soon. So that if you ask
me the question of what's it all going to look like,
I don't have a clue, but I know we've been
handed this treasure and we ought to take advantage of it.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
A great question, Bill, great quick answer. Thank you very much.
So let me go next to Bill Is in Vermont. Bill,
you got to be quick for us. Go right ahead,
your own President Arthur Levina brandeis okay.
Speaker 7 (33:55):
Thank you, Dan, and thank you President Levie. I guess
my question is how we'll get brandeis be able to
retain the high quality of its research and teaching while
pursuing the applications of the Liberal arts with all of
this career aligned competencies and focus.
Speaker 3 (34:13):
And I think the Liberal arts have always done that
when you look at the medieval university. So these guys
are studying the trivium and quadrivium in the classic world.
Why would anybody study that? The answer was, if we'd
studied it, you've got a great job in the church.
So Harvard gets formed in sixteen forty. What they're offering
is Latin, Greek, Hebrew, and Syriac. I bet not one
(34:38):
tribe spoke Greek. And these guys had to live in
this new world. Why were they doing this? Because of
preparing leaders for the colonies, this sectarian community, and they
needed to be able to serve the church. Colleges and
universities have always been cor oriented. It's just periodically what
happens is they lag behind the way with the world
(35:00):
is changing. Brandis from a mainal liberal arts college, will
simply update all the things that we're doing in careers
and make it practical for students. Once again, great answer,
great questions.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
Thank you, Bill. I gots trying to get one more
in if I can. Okay, thanks Bill, appreciate it. Let
me go to Howard and Stoton. Howard, you're next on nightside.
Speaker 8 (35:21):
Thank you, Good evening. I just have a question that
I just dropped my son off at brand Ice. He's
a second year student and he actually held the way.
Speaker 3 (35:32):
After hearing wonder that we worried about him.
Speaker 8 (35:37):
He had a question here. Unfortunately I had to drop
him off already. So your your career counselor comment. Initially
you're academic and a career counselor. And the dual transcripts
is that retroactive to students who are already enrolled.
Speaker 3 (35:58):
What will happen is next year, starting in September, every
student can have a career advisor and an academic advisor him.
What's also going to happen is the second transcript will
get created and we'll set up a whole bunch of
career aligned competencies. So if you're an English major and
you want to be a journalist, we'll create competencies and reporting,
(36:20):
We'll create competencies and communication. We'll create competencies.
Speaker 4 (36:23):
And research on interviewing in the rest, and.
Speaker 3 (36:26):
Those are things you'll be able to take.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
Good question, great answer, Thank you very much, Howard, great call, Rob,
I think we're getting tight on time. Correct forty seconds. Okay,
to the callege we called in late. We apologize, professor,
I should say, mister President, President Arthur Levine. I have
so enjoyed this hour. It exceeded my expectations, and my
(36:49):
expectations were quite high. Thank you. Love to have you back,
and congratulations on your ascension to the presidency of a
great university.
Speaker 3 (36:58):
Dan, You're very kind. I really enjoyed being with you.
Thank you for nice evening.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
And we had great questions for my listeners. That's always
the test of a great guest. That is always the
test of a great guest. So thank you so much
for this evening, and we'll talk again. I hope to
meet you soon. Thank you very much.
Speaker 3 (37:15):
Like that a lot.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
Great, We'll be back and We're going to talk about
that huge deal on the mass Turnpike and the service
plaza deal on the Pike and other major roadways in Massachusetts.
We got John Chester of the Boston Globe coming up.
There's something here that we are not being told the
company that won the award has withdrawn. That doesn't make sense.
(37:40):
We'll talk about it after the ten
It's Night Side with Dan Ray on WBS Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
You know, I would say that the Red Sox are
probably going to be okay tonight, that is for sure.
Seven zip. The Toronto Blue Jays are. They're wounded birds
right now. The Red Sox might be helping the Yankees
clinch the division, but it'll all play out of the
next few nights, next few days, so worry not, that
(00:30):
is for sure. I am delighted tonight to welcome to
the night Side audience. Introduced to the night Side audience
man who I spoke with for the first time today,
President Arthur Levine. He's the president of Brandeis University. Brandeis University,
of course, a great, great university in Waltham, Massachusetts, founded
(00:51):
in the year nineteen forty eight, which I quoth to
President Levine and myself also have a special connections with
that year. Professor Levine, I'll just leave that at that.
How are you this evening?
Speaker 3 (01:07):
Very good, Thank you, it's nice to be with you.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Well. You have had an amazing career. You graduated from
Brandeis in nineteen seventy. You have served as president of
Teachers College at Columbia University, for twelve years around the
time of the turn of the century, from ninety four
to two thousand and six. You then were the president
(01:30):
of the Institute for Citizens and Scholars. From two thousand
and six to twenty nineteen, you had also served as
the president of Bradford College here in Massachusetts. Also chaired
the Higher Education Graduate Program and Institute of Educational Management
at the Harvard Graduate School of Education. You've received honorary
doctorate degrees from twenty six universities, and you've been awarded
(01:54):
fellowships by the Carnegie, the Guggenheim, the Fulbright, and Rockefellow Foundations.
I would say that you have spent your entire life,
your career in positions of influence and prominence in higher education.
But you were sounding and alarmed that things have to
change in higher education, and you have some very interesting thoughts.
(02:19):
Let me start off right now today, how dramatically must
higher education, meaning colleges and universities and postgraduate educations, this
fundamental change or is it changes around the edges.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
It's fairly fundamental changes. And what's going on in the
country is that we are changing profoundly. We're changing rapidly.
Were prey, We're changing continuously. We're moving from a national
analog in dustrial economy to a global digital knowledge economy.
(02:59):
The demographics so the country are changing, the economy is changing,
technology is changing, Globalization is occurring. In politics for sure,
changing too. The end result is that the last time
we had change of this magnitude was the Industrial Revolution,
(03:20):
and that was a time which higher education was transformed.
We're going through exactly the same period now in which
higher education needs to be regeared to a new world.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Okay, I take from that, and I want to make
sure I understand it. I take from that that people
are being educated, they're earning degrees, but they're not learning
the skill set which will provide for them the foundation
of careers and the foundations the foundation of jobs in
(04:00):
the economy. That's what I'm hearing. Am I not hearing
a time?
Speaker 3 (04:05):
That's what I'm saying. You know, there's this wonderful quote
from Henry Adams, who was a journalist and he was
a historian, and two of his progenitors were president of
the United States, and he attended Harvard in the mid
nineteenth century, and he lamented the fact that he'd gotten
an eighteenth century education and was living in the world
(04:28):
plunging into the twentieth century. There are times when the
world changes so very, very quickly. Did all our social
institutions get left behind and have to remake themselves to
fit into the newly emerging world? And this is one
of those moments.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Okay, So how would you compare this moment to the
most recent period where there were tremendous changes? And I
would argue that in the nineteen nineties there were tremendous
changes with the arrival of the Internet and all sorts
of community cation devices, cell phones and laptop computers. That
(05:05):
was a period of change and people had to develop
a skill set that they had not learned. And maybe
they're learning that now in colleges and universities. How dramatic
is the change that we're approaching or the change that
we are in compared to the most recent change that
I've identified. Maybe there's a better corollary for you to
(05:29):
speak about, but I would speak about that. How does
if that was a tremor, is this an earthquake? Or
if that was a snowstorm, is this going to be
a blizzard? Tell us give us a metaphor.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
The metaphor I views is that that was just the
beginning of what's happening now. Okay, Now, what we saw
then was the advent of digital tools and digital access
and all that, and it's led to a world in
which things are profoundly different, and which the economy is different,
in which manufacturing jobs have disappeared and knowledge working jobs
(06:07):
have appeared. And it's a time in which demographics of
the country are switching dramatically. In the nineteen sixties, I
think it was that sixty two percent of the population
lived in New England, the Midwest, or the Middle Atlantic states,
and now it's thirty eight percent. The country's moving, the
(06:29):
country's changing color, the country's aging. It's a very different
time and very different technologies.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
So all of these societal trends are washing over colleges
and universities. So my final question before we go to
break is, if you, armed with the knowledge that you
have amassed over time, we're an eighteen year old contemplating
heading to college, or if you're grandson a granddaughter came
(07:02):
to you and said, what should I major in? And
give me, if not the name, give me the type
of college that I will benefit the most from.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
What's a tough question to answer right now, because what's
happening is most colleges to have a fairly dated curriculum.
It was a curriculum that prepared their parents to the world,
but it's not necessarily going to prepare them for the
world when the world changes quickly. What happens is this
(07:34):
higher education is most successful when it has one foot
in the library and one foot in the street. In English,
what that means is the library is the accumulated knowledge
of humanity and the streets the real world. When the
world changes quickly, colleges and universities, as well as every
other social institution, loses traction with the street, and that
(07:57):
needs to be restored. So what I would tell that
personal asks me, look for a college that's built its
program for the global digital knowledge economy, and don't take
a vocational course. They thoughts it won't give you the skills.
Those vocational skills will have a half life that's getting
(08:19):
shorter and shorter and shorter, and there won't be much
good in the next spot to six years.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
So when you talk about vocational skills, I assume you're
talking about HVAC plumbing, becoming an electrician. Is that what
I'm am I mischaracterizing that term?
Speaker 3 (08:38):
No, I mean, but it also goes beyond that. It's
also the business program it's also the health programs. It's
also the all those programs need to be updated. And
tell you what, when we come back from the break,
I'll tell you how good.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
That's a perfect segue and to tease. So, my guest
is the president of Brandeis University, Arthur Levine. I spent
about twenty minutes with him on the phone today and
I was very, very impressed. I'm not easily impressed because
I get a chance to talk to a lot of
interesting people, including other college presidents, over time. But he
(09:16):
is a great communicator, and he also has ideas that
really you're making me think, and if you stay with us,
I think you'll be thinking as we go along. And
if you'd like to join the conversation and ask a question,
the numbers has always remained six, one, seven, two, five,
four to ten thirty six one seven, nine, three, one,
ten thirty. We'll be back after this quick break on
night side with the president of Brandeis University. Brandeis University
(09:40):
seventy seven years young, a great university, obviously named for
the Supreme Court Justice Lewis Bryan. Brandei's president, Arthur Levine.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
You're on Night Side with Dan Ray on w b Z,
Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
With us as the president of Brandeis University, Arthur Levine.
When we ended, President Levine was talking about the changes
that need to be made, and I asked him a
hypothetical question as to if he were going to apply
to college today or if he had a grandson of
granddaughter who was in the process, what would he be
looking for. And he said that he would be a
(10:19):
little bit more specific in his answer when we finished
the last segment. So, President Levine, the floor is yours.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
Well, thank you. It's a lovely floor. What I would
say is that we're living in a time in which
twenty to twenty five percent of all colleges are going
to close over the next two decades. It's also a
time in which community colleges are going to be increasingly online,
(10:48):
and so will regional public universities. What that means is
that the liberal arts colleges which are many in New England,
and research universities, which are many in New England when
brandize is both will really determine the shape of higher
head to come. So when I got to Brandeis last November.
(11:08):
When I got there, I spoke to the faculty and
what I told them was, this is the time in
which we need to reinvent the liberal arts and what
that meant to turn that into English. Every college has
a set of general requirements all students.
Speaker 4 (11:25):
Are intended to take, and what I.
Speaker 3 (11:29):
Asked the faculty to do was update them. Now they
prepare students for industrial America, Let's change them. Let's make
them prepare students for the global digital knowledge economy. And
tell you what, why don't we focus on the skills
and knowledge students need to live in that world, Things
(11:52):
like communications, things like problem solving, things like the capacity
to change, things like resilience is like problem solving. Let's
teach those things to students, and let's do something else.
Let's focus on careers. The Liberal arts have always been practical,
(12:12):
so let's do this. When students arrive at Brandeis on
day one, let's give them both an academic advisor and
a career advisor. And next, let's do this. It's fine
to take courses, but students need to understand how those
courses are translated in the real world. They need to
(12:33):
understand how they translate into experience. So we want to
give them experiential education. We want to give them internships
virtual and real. And then next what we want to
do is we want to give them a second transcript.
The first transcript is real familiar. What it does is
it lists the courses the students has taken and it
(12:55):
lists the grades. In the second transcript, that we want
to do is list career align competencies that students have achieved,
those kinds of things that our employers are looking for
in the people they hire. Those will be put into
the transcript. There will not be a record of what
students were taught. There'll be a record of what students
(13:18):
know and students can do, and we hope they'll use
this transcript throughout their lives. Let's also say it set
up a lab and let's figure out how things like AI,
artificial intelligence and virtual reality can fit into the curriculum
and the ways in which we teach. And finally, I
asked the faculty reorganize yourself, which is a big deal
(13:41):
to ask a faculty. We were organized the way all
colleges seem to be. We're organized into a College of Arts,
and sciences, and we're organized into professional schools, and I said,
let's join them. Let's create a school of Arts, Humanities
and the application of call. Sure, let's create a school
(14:02):
of Science and the applications of engineering and technology. Let's
create a College of Economics and the application of business.
Let's create a College of Social Sciences and social policy.
The idea is that every student will get the underlying
subject matter that animates the professions. I will also be
(14:25):
in a school in which they can see them applied
in the form of profession.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
That is a quite a task that you're undertaking. This
you've thought about this. I know you published a book
ten years ago on this subject, and I'm sure that
over time your thoughts have changed. But that is an
ambitious overhaul.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
I was very lucky. I've presented this to the faculty
in January. We spent two months. I have told the
faculty ain't get anything done unless we do this together.
And we must have held sixteen meetings. After a faculty
meeting in January and in March, there was a secret
(15:11):
ballot and eighty eight percent of the faculty voted and
favor this plan, which shocked me. In any college in
university in America, you can't get eighty eight percent of
the faculty do greeted tomorrow's Thursday?
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Okay, So let me ask you. Let me ask you
a couple of quick questions here. Okay, As you change
the course, as you changed everything that the universities are
going to offer, the way in which they offer it,
what is being taught now in your regular liberal arts
(15:45):
university that has to be eliminated. So, for example, will
students still read Shakespeare? Learn Shakespeare? Will they still study
courses on Western civilization? Will history be downgraded? Seems to
be like science, as science and applied scientists will be upgraded.
There's only so much time in the calendar day, and
(16:08):
in a calendar month, and in the year and all
of that. If you add things to the formula, some
things have to go.
Speaker 3 (16:18):
What would go well? Except I think what's different is
we're putting an accent to a different fallable or a
different syllable. What we're saying is, if you study history,
what we want you to learn by having done that
is that to write. If you're studying English and you're
studying Shakespeare, we want you to take that to learn
(16:39):
how to communicate. If you're studying anthropology, we want you
to take that to understand resilience in how societies go forth.
So we're focusing on the competencies rather than the specific
subject matters, but they'll still study the same things. How
came in education without Shakespeare?
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Yeah, well, that would be a question that would would
pop into my mind. But again, I'm a baby boomer
as you are, and we were taught quite differently back
back in the day. Although I think that it's stood
the test of time for us. We have a test
of time and it's called a news break at the
bottom of the hour. So, my guest, you're listening to
(17:24):
Brandize University professor, but you learned segues in communications in
this business exactly.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
That's why you take Shakespeare.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Yes, President Arthur Levine a Brandeis University, he's talking about
really a fundamental change in the way young people, people
who are today in elementary school, in junior high school,
will need to be educated, for that matter, even high school.
So the pressure is on. Feel free to ask a question,
(17:55):
because that's how all of us learn. I don't have
all the questions and I have none of the answers.
So you have someone with a lot of answers and
a lot of ideas. You can you can plumb the
mind of a university professor at six one, seven, two,
four thirty, six one seven, nine three, one, ten thirty.
We'll be back right after the newscast at the bottom
(18:16):
of the hour.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
You're on Night Side with Dan Ray on w b Z,
Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
Professor Levine, I'm going to be remiss if I don't
ask you two part questions. And the first can be
a yes or no, and the second you can amplify,
however you would like.
Speaker 3 (18:33):
One, tell you what how about no? And now go
on to the.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
The first one. Is there too many administrative officer officers,
uh dean's, assistant deans and all of that at some
of the finest universities in America, and and and too
few faculty?
Speaker 3 (18:56):
You're not sharing to give a yes or a no?
Would I say to that?
Speaker 2 (19:00):
Is? Well? Is it out of balance? Is it out
of balance? Have we not maintained our levels of faculty
to students? But we have increased our levels to again,
call them assistant deans, call them administrators, whatever you want.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
You know, there are more administrators now than there used
to be. But there's also more compliance required by government
and other organizations. They're also we have more lawyers on
our staffs because of the rising number of lawsuits, rising
numbers of issues that face institutions. We have more financial people.
(19:42):
We need more people in financial aid because it's become
so much more complex and it's so important to students.
So that I view administration, they're all there to serve.
And if we find is that some of those offices
are now getting so big they're not serving, that's a
bad condition. But the reality is, I don't think anybody
(20:04):
decided let's just pump up the number of administrators.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
My great friend Harvey silver Glad, who's an extraordinary lawyer,
defense lawyer and the thinker, the founder of the Foundation
of Individual Rights and Expression, one of the founders. He
is convinced that at the great universities of reputation in
this country we have, they have become over they've become
(20:28):
bloated with administrators at the and fewer faculty. Classes have
become too large, too many of those first year courses
where there's three hundred, four hundred, five hundred kids in
a course in a class. And then the other question,
which I have to ask is you said that at
most universities you kind of get eighty eight percent of
(20:48):
faculty agree upon anything, never mind the reforms that you
have so eloquently spoken of. I would challenge that a
little bit and say that at a lot of schools,
if you had the vote between a Democrat and a
Republican for president or a conservative liberal, that it's going
to be skewed to the left philosophically. Do you agree
(21:11):
with that? Do you accept that concept or is it
way off base in your opinion?
Speaker 3 (21:17):
I think it's mildly accurate. And let me explain why
I'm using the word mildly, which is university skew liberal,
but they're not without conservative faculty. The notion that liberal
that university has become these bastions for far left is
an absurd notion to politicize the university. It's deceptive and
(21:42):
it's also inaccurate the simple reality. And let me go
back to your last question, which is to say I
know it places like brandeis our student faculty ratio.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
Is ten to one.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
I can't tell you what our administrative ratio is, but
we really careful we higher administrators. Okay, I'd much rather
have people engaged in teaching and learning that I'd rather
than having people who administer the place.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
Do you think the administrative relationship between students is higher
than faculty or lower than faculty? You may not be
able to lower much lower. Okay, fine, I will dispute you.
I think that I've seen study after study after study, uh,
in which college professors, you know, across the across the land,
(22:30):
will identify much more easily. And I've and I have
faculty members in universities around the country who call the show,
been on the show, and they talk about how they
feel at you know, at a faculty, meaning you know
that they they are they are in the minority. I
mean they are really We have a lot of diversity
at universities, but one of the things I don't think
(22:50):
we have is philosophical diversity. And and that's something I
would be remiss if I do not make that pitch
to you. Yeah, brands might be exacts.
Speaker 3 (23:01):
That No, we're agreeing, they skew liberal, but they're not
far left. The other thing I'd say about that is
I think people have a misimpression both of students and
this faculty. I've written a whole bunch of books about
college students in the nineteen sixties, a majority of students
could have been described as center left or center right.
(23:25):
It wasn't far left as people imagined. And even at
the height of student protest, most universities didn't have protests.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
True. True. The reason I say that is there was
this conel professor I forget his name for a moment,
but in the wake of October seventh he publicly said
he was exhilarated by what happened on October seventh in Israel.
And I thought to myself, how can you be a
human being, and oh better yet, be a professor at
(23:56):
an Ivy League college and even express that. But let's
we'll let that.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
Let's take that point. Yeah, And what I tell you
is that's appalling, right, That's not only a question of
being a professor, that's a question of being a human being. Absolutely,
some people die in the fashion they did on October seventh.
How anybody can applaud that, I think is sick and
(24:22):
a shame.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
Well, you saw a lot of protests that Columbia, and
you know there were a couple of college presidents who
are unable to answer questions in Congress. In December of
that year who are no longer are college president, including
the college president of Harvard University former college president Claude
Deine Gay. And again I just I mentioned that I
got packed lines for you. So if you're ready, let's
(24:45):
buckle up.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
Okay, one second, let me just respond to that.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
Juggle ahead and.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
Say we got a problem with colleges and universities and
the way they speak to the world. Yes, they speak
in academis as opposed to English.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
Yes, I'm with you.
Speaker 3 (24:58):
The college presidents who went before Congress were lined up
before a firing squad, and we're entirely unprepared for what
they had to face.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
I want to know who prepped them, the people with
the people who prepped.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
Him exactly right. They did a terrible job.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
If you ever get called in front of Congress, I'll
be more than happy to come over and spend an
hour with you.
Speaker 3 (25:23):
You do real well enough?
Speaker 2 (25:26):
No, no, no, no, trust me, It would trust me.
Ten minutes would be enough. Let me go to Mike
and high end as Mike, you are first tonight with
the president of Brandeis University, President Arthur Olivy, and go
right ahead, Mike.
Speaker 4 (25:38):
Gentlemen, good evening, Dan, first time a long time. Thanks
for having me on.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
Well, first time call always gets a round in the class.
Speaker 3 (25:44):
Thank you very much, my thank you.
Speaker 4 (25:49):
The concern that I have, you know, I did the
typical college, grad school, that sort of thing. I'm a
kid in college now large university in England, so with
you know, what I keep hearing is is change, a
lot of change. He's a freshman now with the with
the unfortunate you know, debt that he's going to.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
Accumulate just racked up over the.
Speaker 3 (26:16):
Next four years. I guess you know.
Speaker 4 (26:19):
My My question is why aren't colleges changing fast enough
to meet this demand of a twenty first century workforce,
really by offering them those real professional skills that they need.
Speaker 3 (26:33):
That's a great question. And what I'd say is change
meets up on people so that one day people tell
you God, they're doing a great job, and then next
day they tell you, oh my god, this thing costs
too much, this thing is behind the times. You never change.
What happens is the change is occurring faster. Any institution
(26:56):
you can think of is in the same shape. Whether
we're talking about government, whether it's talking about social service agencies,
whether we're talking about many businesses. They're facing a world
that's unfamiliar. I need a study of how newspapers, how Hollywood,
how the music industry faced this new world. They're facing
(27:19):
the same conditions as colleges, and they did a great
job of responding until digital technology. Digital technology ate the lunch.
They put newspapers out of business. In addition, what we
watched was streaming replace Hollywood studios, and we watched that
(27:41):
as the music industry was overtaken by Apple. It's a
time now in which your complaints are real mic and
we need to address them. If we're going to serve
our students. Well, we've had a chance, no time. Do
it change or it's not going to work for the
(28:04):
people we enroll.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
My great question, I think I got a really good
answer to and I hope it will be accomplished in
time for your for your son.
Speaker 3 (28:14):
Thank you.
Speaker 4 (28:14):
I hope so as well appreciate it. I appreciate the time.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
Thanks Mike, call again, looking forward to call her number
two with from Mike and hiatus. Thanks Mike. Take a
quick break here, very quick break. I'm going to try
as best I can to get the next four people
who are in line on the air, and all of
you are going to have to ask questions and be
as direct as you can. I will be direct with you.
I know the president of Brandi's, Arthur Levine, will be
(28:38):
direct with you. And we'll be back to be direct
right after.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
This night side with Dan Ray on WBS Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Welcome back. My guest is the president of Brandeis University,
Arthur Levine. And by the way, I have such a
great audience. Professor, a professor at a graduate school. I'm
not going to identify him. Reminded me that the name
of that Cornell professor who made that appalling statement about
being exhilarated after the horrific events of October seventh, he
(29:16):
he just he was He was speaking at a rally
in support of Palestinians. His name is Professor Russell Rickford
of Cornell and he has been at Cornell now since
twenty fourteen. He did issue an apology and then took
(29:38):
a leave of absence. He is now back teaching at Cornell.
And again, just a horrific comment that that was that
that was just he said it was exhilarating, and that
was the adjective that he used let's get back to
the call to the calls here on night Side from
(29:59):
my guests, President Arthur Levine, President of Brandeis University, Rachel
and Rachel. You're on with President Levine. Go righthead, Rachel.
Speaker 5 (30:09):
Hydian, Nice talk to you. So I kind of bounced
in at the beginning of a conversation you had mentioned
and you asked something very important about vocational.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
Yes, go ahead, ask you ask, ask you a question,
get your clarification, but get right to it, Rachel.
Speaker 5 (30:30):
So my clarification is we have people that go to
school after high school that go for vocational that want
to be electricians, right, all.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Of the all of the trades, right, yep, what's your question?
Speaker 5 (30:48):
We want to do the trades and you know what,
they don't want to sit in the classroom because Rachel.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Rachel, please, Rachel please, what is your question for President Levine?
Speaker 6 (30:58):
What's your question?
Speaker 5 (30:59):
Is I actually want to know his feeling about the
vocational I miss that.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
Okay, you hold on and you'll you'll get a quick
recap from President Levine of that part of the program
that you're missed. Professor, your.
Speaker 3 (31:15):
Countries do better than others on the vocational issue. With
Rachel Germany, for example, has two tracks, and what it
has is intersections between the two tracks. So I can
decide to be a plumber and I can do that
for a really long time and then decide, you know what,
I want to move on and be an engineer now
who deals with plumbing and water and other kinds of things.
(31:35):
I think a system that allows people to move between
occupation to provide the career ladder is a great one.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
That would be a change question Germany.
Speaker 5 (31:46):
What about the USA?
Speaker 3 (31:49):
They can become that doing nearly as well as we
ought to Rachel. In this regard, we don't prepare people
for that world. And we're living in a time in
which is essential that people get post secondary education after
high school in order to be guaranteed a job.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
Rachel, thank you very much for a great question. Thank you.
Let me go to Dennis and Lowell. Dennis next on
nice side with President of Brandai's University, Arthur Levine.
Speaker 6 (32:15):
Go right ahead, Dennis, yep, good evening, Dan and doctor Levine.
I also have a grandson who's a freshman in college,
and I just say it's a very interesting time and
being from Lowell, we started the industrial revolution. Anyway, My
question has to do. Could you talk about the effect
(32:35):
and future of AI, artificial intelligence on everything.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
Sure, that's a great question, President, Mister President.
Speaker 3 (32:41):
It's a wonderful question, and I wish I had a
really good answer. What I tell you is, AI's this
incredible tool, and every time a new tool emerges, what
we first see are all the disadvantages. Oh my goodness,
it's going to help people cheat. The reality is it
provides new ways of teaching. It would allow us to
(33:04):
create a GPS for learning such SAT as a student
studies as opposed to taking a term, an examine at
the end of a term or an end of a year.
As soon as that student's off base, what we have
the capacity to do now with AI is telling them, whoops,
you're off base, and here's what you ought to do.
Here's how you work this out, here's what you ought
(33:26):
to be doing. We're going to be able to do
with individualized study for all students, and that's coming and
it's going to come soon. So that if you ask
me the question of what's it all going to look like,
I don't have a clue, but I know we've been
handed this treasure and we ought to take advantage of it.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
A great question, Bill, great quick answer. Thank you very much.
So let me go next to Bill Is in Vermont. Bill,
you got to be quick for us. Go right ahead,
your own President Arthur Levina brandeis okay.
Speaker 7 (33:55):
Thank you, Dan, and thank you President Levie. I guess
my question is how we'll get brandeis be able to
retain the high quality of its research and teaching while
pursuing the applications of the Liberal arts with all of
this career aligned competencies and focus.
Speaker 3 (34:13):
And I think the Liberal arts have always done that
when you look at the medieval university. So these guys
are studying the trivium and quadrivium in the classic world.
Why would anybody study that? The answer was, if we'd
studied it, you've got a great job in the church.
So Harvard gets formed in sixteen forty. What they're offering
is Latin, Greek, Hebrew, and Syriac. I bet not one
(34:38):
tribe spoke Greek. And these guys had to live in
this new world. Why were they doing this? Because of
preparing leaders for the colonies, this sectarian community, and they
needed to be able to serve the church. Colleges and
universities have always been cor oriented. It's just periodically what
happens is they lag behind the way with the world
(35:00):
is changing. Brandis from a mainal liberal arts college, will
simply update all the things that we're doing in careers
and make it practical for students. Once again, great answer,
great questions.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
Thank you, Bill. I gots trying to get one more
in if I can. Okay, thanks Bill, appreciate it. Let
me go to Howard and Stoton. Howard, you're next on nightside.
Speaker 8 (35:21):
Thank you, Good evening. I just have a question that
I just dropped my son off at brand Ice. He's
a second year student and he actually held the way.
Speaker 3 (35:32):
After hearing wonder that we worried about him.
Speaker 8 (35:37):
He had a question here. Unfortunately I had to drop
him off already. So your your career counselor comment. Initially
you're academic and a career counselor. And the dual transcripts
is that retroactive to students who are already enrolled.
Speaker 3 (35:58):
What will happen is next year, starting in September, every
student can have a career advisor and an academic advisor him.
What's also going to happen is the second transcript will
get created and we'll set up a whole bunch of
career aligned competencies. So if you're an English major and
you want to be a journalist, we'll create competencies and reporting,
(36:20):
We'll create competencies and communication. We'll create competencies.
Speaker 4 (36:23):
And research on interviewing in the rest, and.
Speaker 3 (36:26):
Those are things you'll be able to take.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
Good question, great answer, Thank you very much, Howard, great call, Rob,
I think we're getting tight on time. Correct forty seconds. Okay,
to the callege we called in late. We apologize, professor,
I should say, mister President, President Arthur Levine. I have
so enjoyed this hour. It exceeded my expectations, and my
(36:49):
expectations were quite high. Thank you. Love to have you back,
and congratulations on your ascension to the presidency of a
great university.
Speaker 3 (36:58):
Dan, You're very kind. I really enjoyed being with you.
Thank you for nice evening.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
And we had great questions for my listeners. That's always
the test of a great guest. That is always the
test of a great guest. So thank you so much
for this evening, and we'll talk again. I hope to
meet you soon. Thank you very much.
Speaker 3 (37:15):
Like that a lot.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
Great, We'll be back and We're going to talk about
that huge deal on the mass Turnpike and the service
plaza deal on the Pike and other major roadways in Massachusetts.
We got John Chester of the Boston Globe coming up.
There's something here that we are not being told the
company that won the award has withdrawn. That doesn't make sense.
(37:40):
We'll talk about it after the ten
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