August 2, 2024 • 41 mins
Gary Tanguay for NightSide:
Unseen Innocence is a documentary about the wrongful murder conviction of Lionel “Ray Ray” Williams who was sentenced to 51 years to life in March 1979 for the death of iconic Hollywood actor Sal Mineo. The film directed by Letitia McIntosh dives into the systemic issues that led to Ray Ray’s conviction and his tireless quest for exoneration. Letitia McIntosh and Ray Ray Williams joined Gary to discuss.
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Unseen Innocence is a documentary about the wrongful murder conviction of Lionel “Ray Ray” Williams who was sentenced to 51 years to life in March 1979 for the death of iconic Hollywood actor Sal Mineo. The film directed by Letitia McIntosh dives into the systemic issues that led to Ray Ray’s conviction and his tireless quest for exoneration. Letitia McIntosh and Ray Ray Williams joined Gary to discuss.
Ask Alexa to play WBZ NewsRadio on #iHeartRadio!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
It's Night Side with Dan Ray. I'm tell you easy
Boston News Radio right out.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Thanks a lot. I appreciate it, Garian for Daan. Tonight's
still to come on the show. We're going to talk
to the great Sam Metler. We'll discuss the world of politics,
what's going on now that Harris is definitely in. I
still say it would have been more fun to have
a convention, but nobody listens to me. That's all right,
But boy, she caught up quick with Trump. I think, hey,
as we'll talk to Sam about that. It was great
(00:29):
to have my buddy Rich Kimba Lahan talking about the
education of our youth and some of the things that
we need to change. Trendy Casey, my old friend from
NBC Sports talking about the Olympics. But right now we
are going to talk about a documentary, Unseen Innocence. It's
about the wrongful murder conviction of Lionel Ray Ray Williams,
who was sentenced to fifty one years to life in
(00:52):
March of nineteen seventy nine for the death of a
Hollywood actor, Salmoneo. The film is directed by Letitia McIntosh
uh and Ray Ray Williams is going to join us
as well along with Letitia. Thank you for joining us
here on WBC's Night Side.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
Oh, thank you so much for having us.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Well, we appreciate thank you, thank you. We appreciate that. So,
mister Williams, you prefer to go by Ray Ray or
Lionel or.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
Ray, I'd rather go by Ray. I've been called that
all my life.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Okay, Ray Ray sounds good to me. We appreciate that. So,
I mean, unfortunately, this story isn't unique around the world
or in the United States, but it's a story that
we need to continue to tell. So Letitia, tell us
(01:46):
how you became involved in this project.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
So I went to a film school program. I wanted
to learn how to animate my training videos. And when
I went to that film school program, I actually directed
a music video for a Southern soul artist and that
Southern soul artist manager tried to book him in mister
(02:11):
Williams Motorcycle Club. And that's how I got introduced to him.
When they called me on the phone and they told
me about his story, and I said, let me research
it a little bit. And then when I researched it,
I was like, okay, I would I would like to
help you tell your story.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
So if you can summarize his story for us, so in.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
A nutshell, mister Williams was sentenced fifty one years for
the murder of Salvatory Mineo Junior. He actually so, yep,
it was every unsolved robbery and the murder that happened
in that area in that in that time period around
that area. And so mister Mineo essentially was basically railroaded
(02:57):
like so many people are. He was put into him
a position where they follow this formula of where there's
eyewitness testimony. Then they're incentivizing people to testify and they
give them, you know, either time off, you know, they
give them money or something like that, and then you
(03:18):
may have prosecutorial misconduct as well as police miss conduct
that occurs. And so he was a victim of that.
That's basically why happen.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
It's so crazy because if you watch the trailer, and
you should check out the trailer, you can check that
out on YouTube. Again Unseen Innocence, And I mean, we're
not talking about nineteen fifty nine. We're not talking about
nineteen forty nine. We're not talking about nineteen thirty nine
and the Jim Crow South. You know, we're talking about
(03:48):
like nineteen eighty you know, I mean, we're talking about
to me what I considered to be contemporary times. Where
as you point out as ray ray you said, and
right in the trailer, that witness has said that the
person they saw walking away from the scene of the
(04:08):
crime was white.
Speaker 4 (04:10):
What was just?
Speaker 2 (04:13):
And there was what the ray ray? There were three?
Speaker 4 (04:16):
There was four people.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Four people. Run it down for me.
Speaker 4 (04:20):
It was four eyewitnesses, all of them are white. One
was a nine year old girl who witnessed the murder
under her window watching her mother back out the driveway. Uh.
It was another guy uh in the next apartments. Uh
was was a witness to the everything for him driving up,
(04:44):
getting out of his car and getting killed. You know,
he witnessed everything, and he was never used at trial.
He was never called. Why you don't call him eyewitness
that saw everything to court? Why did they hide this man?
(05:09):
I'm gonna tell you what they did. They used someone
else in his place. They brought in a grown man
that said that the murderer bumped into him and got
into his car. But the seventeen year old kid who
was supposed to be in that courtroom was never there.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
And the murder. So the grown man said, you were
the murderer.
Speaker 4 (05:38):
No, oh, no, no, I've been researching, he said, one
in the bushes. In the bushes, but it was only
one white person. Anybody who got in that car. There
was only one person they got in that car. All
(06:00):
the witnesses, the security guard, uh, and the man walking
the dog and the lady backing out said that it
was a white person. Well, let me tell you something though.
You know, in most cases, hold up. I believe in
(06:20):
every case, when when you got an eyewitness to a
well find crime like this, what do you think that
the DA should ask that person, that eyewitness? What do
you think the first thing they should ask that person?
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Who did you see in the scene of the crime?
Or are you racist?
Speaker 4 (06:45):
No? I'm not racist?
Speaker 2 (06:46):
No, no, no, you no, no, I understand that what
you should do? You asking me what the first question
should be?
Speaker 4 (06:52):
The first thing the d A or an attorney asked
an eyewitness to a crime, do you see that person
in the court room? They never asked that question.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
But I don't. I don't this whole thing. Look, I
just don't get it. Like I understand what you're saying
is the truth, And I'm gonna try to We're gonna
get into like why this happens, because to me, it
just seems to be easier on the taxpayer dollar to
listen to the witnesses and to just get this done
quicker in court. It seems to be more complicated to
(07:28):
put an innocent man in jail, is what I'm saying.
So I don't understand it. We'll continue the conversation. Unseen Innocence, UH,
the murder, the wrongful murder conviction of Lionel Railway Williams.
I tried to say more than this coming up on
night Side right after this.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Now back to Dan Ray Live from the Window World
night Side Studios on WBZ News Radio.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
Garry Tangae filling it for Dan Ray tonight. Unseen Innocence
the documentary about a manage centers through fifty one years
for a murder he did not commit. Unseen Innocence is
not just a documentary, it is a call to action
and the film was directed Yeah, the film was directed
by Letitia McIntosh and it talks about the just the
(08:13):
tragic situation situation. Ray Ray Williams is also our guest
who was convicted for fifty one years to life for
a murder and could not have committed that he did
not commit it, that he did not commit it.
Speaker 4 (08:27):
And it also says right here, I couldn't have committed it.
I couldn't have done it.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Well, right here it says, as I was reading Hollywood
actor sal Mineo's tragic murder, eyewitnesses described a five foot
nine white man with blondehair as the perpetrator, yet a
black man standing five to five with a large afro.
And I saw the video you had a large afro.
Sir found himself convicted and sentenced to fifty one years.
(08:54):
He has always maintained his innocence and he is fighting
to clear his name. So Letitia, can you do you
find a reason why he was wrongly convicted and why
the police did not take the evidence that was right
in front of them, you.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
Know, and not living in that time and being being
a child myself, I can't say. I can't get into
the minds, but we know the way this country was
and the way things were going, and it happens right
now to this very day. You know, we're really dealing
with wrongful convictions and people who are unjustly convicted of crimes.
The one thing that I really wanted to do was
(09:34):
help mister Williams tell his story. When he talked to me,
he said, I was no angel, but I did not
do this. And the biggest thing is giving him an
opportunity to separate his legacy from being the person who
was convicted and accused of killing Salmonio. So that because
what's on the internet, you know, being an it person,
(09:56):
I know that it will never go away, but at
least now you can combat a lot of the wrong
information that was fed to the media. A lot of
the information that you guys are going to look up
and see that information was information that was fed to
the media. That was probably what they wanted to do
just to close the case. That's the closest thing I
can think of.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
But that's just to say Ms Macintosh, sure you know,
I hear you. I mean, I got it. But Ray, Ray,
maybe you can help me out here. The easiest thing
to close the case would have been to listen to
the witnesses.
Speaker 4 (10:27):
Yeah, that's what I don't get.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
So I mean, in pure racism, I guess is I'm
trying to look for an answer that's beyond pure racism,
and I don't know if there is.
Speaker 4 (10:36):
One it is not. So that's what it is, pure racism,
you know, to get rid of you know, they you know,
they just wanted to get rid of us, you know,
by all means necessary, you know, uh, get get someone
to come to Gort and lie. You know, you know,
don't don't don't believe in the eyewitnesses. Believe in my witnesses,
(11:00):
because the eyewitnesses a lion. That's the way I got it,
you know, because you know, the jury should have believed
what the eyewitness has said instead of what the DA
witnesses said.
Speaker 3 (11:20):
Him all the way around. I mean, when I listen
to mister Williams tell the story, when I look at
what happens when he's the only one who was in
the court and he's the one that has the court documents,
he has his inmate copies of the trial records, and
all the information that's on the media is not what
he has in his records. And so that's the biggest
(11:41):
thing for him to clear his name, is for him
to have the opportunity to get in front of the
right people. That's why we want people to buy the book,
because if you buy the books Unseen Innocence, then the
name off one years to life. But you can buy
the book at Unseen Innocence dot Com. You'll get an
opportunity to walk the walk that heat as he's explains
(12:01):
how everything happened to him in court, how they utilized
his seventeen year old wife, how they utilized people who
were supposedly friends, How they utilize all those type of
people to you know, testify against them, and then Railroad
and him in so many different ways, you know.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
Did they use let Teacha, How did they use his
seventeen year old wife and his friends?
Speaker 3 (12:23):
Would they had her say that he came home covered
in blood, and they had another guy say that he
came home and said that he killed how many of them?
And then they they that's the type of stuff that
they were putting out. They had all kinds of nonsense.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
But so what did they Why did his wife say that?
What did they they must have they gave her? Did
they bribe her? Did they threaten her?
Speaker 4 (12:45):
They threatened her?
Speaker 3 (12:47):
They threatened her, and she had gotten herself in some trouble,
and she had they had children, they were married, that
they had children, and then they used that and held
that over her head, you know, so that they could
so they were they were.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Going to threaten to take away the kids.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
Exactly.
Speaker 4 (13:06):
Yeah, okay, that's what it was.
Speaker 3 (13:08):
She wound up shooting herself in the head. She didn't
commit suicide, but she did shoot herself in the head
because of the pressure that she was under from those
police officers at that time. So she lived, she did live,
and she's still alive now.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Wow. So it was an attempted suicide.
Speaker 4 (13:27):
No, she tried. She she she shot herself with her
twenty two and it you know, so you know she
she she lived, twenty two is not going to do
that much damaged close range, Okay, So you know, so
it went in, went in her head, but it took
a piece of her ear off, went in her head.
(13:51):
She went blind for a while and then she got
her eyesight back and then So how did.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
The circumstances point to you? Were you in the vicinity
of the crime at the time? No, okay, So where
were you when this, when this murder, when this murder
and when this whole crime went down? Where were you?
I was that my brother does how many miles a well?
Speaker 4 (14:15):
Uh, I could say it was thirty five minutes away
from the murder scene.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Okay. So how did they finger you for this?
Speaker 3 (14:25):
The yellow car?
Speaker 4 (14:27):
The yellow car?
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Okay, explain can you explain it to me, Letitia?
Speaker 3 (14:32):
Well, Ray Ray could explain it to you better, but
I can tell you the next show. What happened was
the Sheriff's office put out a message saying that if
anybody had, you know, knows anything about a yellow car
being loaned or rented or anything. So Ray Ray says
that O'Connor Lincoln, which is where he rented this yellow
car from Yellow he rented a yellow Dodge Colt because
(14:55):
he had a car that wasn't working that he bought
from them, and they gave him that as a loaner,
and he had that car. He said that the car
had some technical issues, some mechanical issues. He wound up
returning the car to them. He didn't even have the
car that long. However, there was a yellow car that
was seen by the eyewitnesses that the perpetrator got into. However,
(15:19):
it was a yellow Toyota. And the reason why we
know for sure it's a yellow Toyota is because when
the prosecutor was talking to the eyewitness, he asked him
about the car several times, and he said, are you sure.
Do you think it's a yellow He said, I know
it's a yellow Toyota because my brother has the same car.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
Would it have been so hard to actually run down
so what they did. So it seems to me what
happened here is that the first yellow car they found,
they said this is the guy.
Speaker 4 (15:52):
Yeah, basically basically built the case around when they finally
got When they finally got around to me, I was
on my way being extradited to Michigan the Battle Creek
to face charges out there, and they came to see
me right before I was extradited. And they came and saying, uh,
(16:13):
uh I had a yellow car. I said, yeah, I
had a yellow car, you know. They say what kind
of car was it? I said, uh, I had a
dodge coat. You said, he shured, wasn't a Tyota? Nos
dodge coat and uh. And they asked me, did I
loaned the car to any of my white friends? I
said no, I had the car returned back, uh to
(16:35):
Old Conn of Lincoln before the It was nightfall, So
you had.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
The car returned before the crime took place.
Speaker 4 (16:41):
Yeah, yeah, Jesus, yeah, his wife check this out. The
they when they brought the rental agreement back into court.
You know, Uh, I never noticed, but the knowledge going
going out because I didn't bought vehicles from these people before.
(17:05):
They always put the miles going out and the miles
coming in. The miles coming in is not on the
paper Why Why because it would have proved, because it
would have proved that the mouse that I put on
there would have been from O'Connor Lincoln to my mother's
(17:28):
house on ninety third normany you know, and it wouldn't
have been no more extra miles from from there to
Western Shirt plus to Hollywood. No, those miles wouldn't have never.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
It wouldn't have added up.
Speaker 4 (17:44):
Right.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
What about the time could what about the time that
you returned the car?
Speaker 4 (17:50):
No, the car was returned right, So it.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
Wasn't The time that you returned the car was not
on the paperwork.
Speaker 4 (17:57):
None of that wasn't It wasn't none, none of what
we're doing the paperwork.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
What was the charge about a pret sure?
Speaker 4 (18:05):
Uh?
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Forger okay, So you're past like you said, you were
not an angel, but you were never a violent man.
Speaker 4 (18:15):
No, you know, I ain't no pump. You know, I
ain't nothing soft about me. But uh, you know, I
ain't no killer, right, So.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
I don't understand the motive here. So what they're saying
is that you killed him for money.
Speaker 4 (18:31):
And I had a money and you what, look, look
I was I was selling dope. I was a drug dealer,
and I was a pimp, you know what I'm saying.
So I was getting my money from a lot of
different angles. You know, I didn't need to go out
on the street and rob people for pocket change. You know,
if I was gonna be the person to rob some something,
(18:54):
I'm gonna rob a jewelry store, I'm gonna rob a credigion,
I'm gonna rob something with some money at you know,
I'm not. I wouldn't waste my time on street robbers.
How much you gonna get out of a person's pocket
twenty five thirty bucks back then, ain't no money?
Speaker 2 (19:09):
I mean, so r what was the crime? And we
was the guy that was was sal outside his home
and this person just killed him for money? Or was
there something else going on here?
Speaker 4 (19:22):
Unless he got paid to kill that man? He didn't ask,
He didn't have no conversation with Salmony. Them from the
eyewood from the seventeen year old, he said that the
man just walked up to him kidding. He went down.
He ran down the alley. There was no conversation, give
me your money, give me your watch, what's in your wallet,
(19:46):
what's in your briefcase? None of that. That man was
sent there to kill him for a reason, so he killed.
Speaker 3 (19:55):
I don't know, Jerry. Let me clarify something for you.
So Rayway had mentioned you about the man walking the dogs.
So here's what I discovered in Ray Ray's paperwork. There
was a man. His name was Stephen Gustison. He went
in front of the grand jury. Now I found Stephen
Gustinson and asked him if we could interview him. When
we interviewed him, I said, mister gustuson, how come you
(20:17):
never pointed Ray Ray out in court? He said, I
never went to court, And I was like, what do
you mean? I was like, he was like, I only
testified in front of the grand jury. However, in Ray
Ray's official inmate copies, there is a Stephen Gustison that
testified in court, and Ray Ray remembers a grown man
in court Crosine. However, Stephen Gustinson was only seventeen years old.
(20:41):
He was a child's actor from the Electric Company days.
That's and so we believe they hit him out. And
so somebody else testified in the court, but with my
doctor Hennery. Mister Gustinson says, I was standing there with
my dog about fifty feet away on the other side
of the fence. I saw sal many old drive up
Parkers car, get out his car, walk past the first
(21:03):
and the first entrance and into the second entrance where
his apartment is. He said, the person ran into him,
hit him once, took off, and he said, I couldn't
even see him. He ran into the darkness. He was
like in sw Minyo, hit the ground, and then I
saw the bucket of blood just coming out of him.
The blood was just coming out. And so at that
(21:24):
point that was when the other white, white witnesses said
that they saw a white man. The nine year old
girl saw a white man run past her window. The
security guard who was by where the car was parked,
he saw the white man hop.
Speaker 4 (21:36):
Into the car and take her mother saw the man
run past her car.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
So hold on, folks, So why was there a robbery
charge if there was no robbery.
Speaker 3 (21:45):
There was no robbery.
Speaker 4 (21:47):
It was no robbery doing you. The whole case is illegal.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
Right, But what I'm saying there's no robbery. But yeah, Ray,
I just want to make sure. I want to make
sure everybody understands. I want to make sure everybody It
says the witnesses that there was no robbery, there was
no money taken from sal But you were charged with
murder and robbery.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
Okay, murder and rob but not the robbery of Salmonio.
They didn't convict him of the robbery of salmon.
Speaker 4 (22:17):
I got found not guilty of the robbery. Ye.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
Well, yeah, because there was none. Okay, So we're telling
me that Salmonio died by one punch.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
One hit in the heart. Whoever, they didn't know what
they were doing.
Speaker 4 (22:35):
Yeah, So okay, So you think this person was way
taller than me and.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
Obviously much whiter, right, and blond Yeah, and blonde hair.
I mean you couldn't. I mean, listen, Ray, you couldn't
get more opposite. I mean, come on, you know. So
so this guy, so you guys think this was a
paid head where he comes up, punches him in the heart,
executes him, and then they pined on Ray. So do
you think this was a paid.
Speaker 4 (23:00):
Had It was two years later. That's the only thing
that that I can come to my mind that he
was killed by somebody for a reason.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
Letcha you said two years later?
Speaker 3 (23:14):
What it was two years later when mister Williams was
convicted of the crime. So they needed to close the case.
That's all it was to it. They just needed to
close the case. So they built it that when you
look at the timeline, they started the whole process. They
started the whole nonsense to Williams. When about that O'Connor
Lincoln car, And then they started building the case, and
(23:34):
then they started coming up with all these things that
they were feeding to the media. He was telling people
that he did it, and they was there's jailhouse confessions
and he was bragging about it in jail and there's
no proof to that. And he started out, they want
I have newspaper articles that he wrote. He wrote an
article to a magazine publication called The Players, where he
was asking for them to help him because he did
(23:57):
not commit this robbery. He has in his inmate copies
of the record. There's some trial transcripts of their conversations
that were taped with the other the people in the jail,
and he didn't say anything about killing, said how many
and he was talking to them and telling him they
trying to pend this. I mean, these are the transcripts,
but that's not what's in the media. When you google it,
(24:18):
that's not what you're going to see. You can see
nonsense about him doing a seance. You un to see
all kinds of nonsense that's out there because Faminio was
the darling of so many people because of the revel
without a Cause, and then also in the late sixties
early seventies, he came out as being bisexual, which was
not popular in that timeframe, and he took a hit
(24:40):
for it. So he's the darling of the LBGTQ community.
So a lot of the videos that you see now,
a lot of the YouTube videos, a lot of the
articles and things that are written is written by people
who have a lot of respect for him, but they're
all feeding off the same incorrect information that was placed
out there.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
Seen Innostance is the documentary about the wrongful murder conviction
of Ray Ray Williams. Ray Ray is our guest along
with Lutitia McIntosh, the director of the film. Some more
questions as we discussed this, and I want to know
what Ray's doing now and what's his state of mind.
That's all coming up next on WBZ.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
It's a Night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ, Boston's
news radio.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
We'll going back to Knightside. Gary Tang waiting for Dan tonight.
Sam Methler joins us. Coming up at eleven o'clock talk.
It's some more politics on what's going on with the
presidential race right now. And I got some comments on
Aerosmith coming up, so you want to stick around for that.
Ray Ray Williams is joining us along with the film
directed by Letitia McIntosh, Unseen Innocence, a documentary about the
(25:47):
wrongful murder conviction of mister Williams. So, if I have
this correct, you were a parole in nineteen ninety, sir, Yes, yes,
parold in nineteen ninety. So you serve twelve years?
Speaker 4 (26:01):
Well it's thirteen on the gong.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
Do you think that you were paroled because somebody was
trying to do him make good? Because to serve thirteen
years for a murder and get paroled it seems to
be pretty lenient. Was somebody trying to make up for
a make up for past sins?
Speaker 4 (26:19):
Oh no, I don't know what I had.
Speaker 5 (26:22):
My cousin Fernando Jackson, who was a jail house attorney,
have my sentence overturned. Yeah, that's what every appellate attorney
I had couldn't find a way to get this beat
this case off of me. So my cousin figured out
(26:42):
a way and he saw that I was sentenced wrong.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
So letitia was this was this like a loophole or
did they did somebody actually buy the evidence? Were they
able to own overturn it for a clerical issue?
Speaker 3 (26:57):
It wasn't even a clerical issue, was it. That's a
claricul issue. I know that he basically knew that there
was some things that went wrong in the original trial,
and so being a jailhouse attorney and having the you know,
strong knowledge of the law, he was able to help
mister Williams get what he needed, which was to get
the sentence reduced so that he could be paroled. And
(27:22):
that is in a nutshell what happened. His sentence was
reduced and then he's been out for what over twenty
five years, and he's not had any issues, you know,
just lived his life, moved on from it. He wasn't
even going to deal with this. This whole thing came
up because of his was your son at seven at
the time, Yeah, get the seven year old son, and
(27:45):
somebody told his mother told him about it.
Speaker 4 (27:49):
Mother told him that I was a murderer. And he
went in to a quiet mode on us when it
was our turn to have him at my right, and
then we just ask him what's wrong. He said, well,
my mother said that you're a killer. You know, he said, please,
don't don't don't, don't kill bad Man, don't kill Robin,
(28:11):
don't kill Spider Man. You know, his his people, you know,
his cartoon characters. You know. He at that time, I
guess you believed him to be real, you know. And he,
you know, from what his mother told him, you know.
And I told him, I said, well, I'm sorry, but
your mama's a lot, you know. And and you know,
(28:33):
but like I said in the documentary, you know, I
don't know what's going on in his head, you know,
because things have changed since then, you know. I mean,
it's hard for him to say he loves me. Now
he's ten years old. You know, it's weird. You know,
he's still looking at me as a killer. Yeah, And
(28:57):
he seemed and he seemed he's seen the documentary and
started crying. That's the cold thing. He couldn't even watch
the rest of it. He said, Dad, they were beating you,
they were hurting you. I said, yes, they were, you know.
And he couldn't understand that. He couldn't understand that. He said,
(29:17):
I don't want to I don't want to see this
no more, you know, cut it off that I wanted
him to see.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Well, it's exceptionally hard to watch, I'm sure. So your
pure motivation is to prove your innocence to your son.
Speaker 4 (29:36):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
Well, that's admirable, sir, I mean that that is that
is certainly admirable. And was this the woman his mother?
Is she the one that testified against you?
Speaker 4 (29:48):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (29:48):
No, oh no, no, okay, okay.
Speaker 3 (29:53):
Now mister Winson married about four times.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
So letitia, what is the next step here? Where can
we see the documentary? And also if you want to
mention the name of the book again.
Speaker 3 (30:04):
I'm so glad that you mention that. So if you
go to Unseen Innocence dot com you will be able
to purchase the book fifty one years to life. And
then we are working on distribution. We have had some meetings.
If the goal is to get the documentary so we
can have it out there so people can watch the documentary,
and then we also want to do a movie because
the movie will then allow us to or a series,
(30:26):
to delve into all of the intricacies of this story
because there is a lot to it. There's a lot
to unpack, and so the documentary can only touch the
surface of things. But if we can do a movie,
that would allow us to really get into the full
intricacies all the way through, you know, and even up
to now.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
So, Letitia, this is the only film you've done.
Speaker 4 (30:50):
No, sir.
Speaker 3 (30:51):
I have a movie that I did when I came
out of film school. It's called Freshman. It's fresh and
the word mulamb denou with the with the Greek letter
in ulan the new it looks like the word man.
But Freshman is a movie that deals with college fraternities
and date rate.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
So this okay. So, but from did you feel you
were going to be a documentarian? I mean, you did
that out of college, but from what I read, you
were looking to do animation and when you stumbled upon
this story, you had a calling to do it.
Speaker 3 (31:21):
And yeah, I felt like this was an assignment that
guy gave me. To help mister Williams tell his story
because my background was in it. I worked in public
accurning firms and I was a trainer and I just
wanted to learn how to animate my training videos, which
is why I went to film school. So when I
finished it, before I did the music video, and I
did a couple other little projects and stuff like that.
(31:41):
But when I got introduced to him. The other thing
about sal Many is my brother's name was sal My
deceased brother's name was Sala. So I was like, there
was It made me pay attention a little bit more.
But I read about it and I was like, I'll
come from the adage. It doesn't sound right. There's a
lion there somewhere. And the problem that I had was
that witnesses saw a white man and he was clearly
(32:03):
a light skinned black man with an afro. He can't
even pass He's not you know, he's not like Rashida Jones.
He can't even pass for white. He is a traditional,
light complexed black man. So I was like, this doesn't
all right. So I just wanted to help him tell
his story. That was all I wanted to do was
help him get a story out.
Speaker 4 (32:24):
Okay, but checked this out. Ten minutes later, I'm three
blocks over. Now I'm not in a yellow car. Now
I'm in a four door white car. And now I'm
bad headed, and now I have a crime partner with me,
(32:46):
and we're robbing someone else on the street three blocks over.
Ten minutes later, that I went from blonde hair to
no hair, yellow car to a big white car, and
now I got a crime partner in ten minutes.
Speaker 3 (33:10):
Would he would he's speaking to the robberies that he
was convicted of. That is part of the reason why
since got overturned, because the robberies that were tied to
his conviction, they were unsolved robberies that happened in the area,
and so they tied a lot of it. It was
one of the robberies. He wasn't in the hospital when
the robbery occurred.
Speaker 2 (33:31):
So the robbery had nothing to do with sal Mineo.
Speaker 3 (33:35):
No, these were just okay when we buried okay, but
they were part of the sentencing.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
Well, we buried the lead on that because.
Speaker 4 (33:45):
They used the robberies to make the murder stronger.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
Well, No, what they were doing is they were trying
to solve as many they were trying to shut as
many cases as possible at your expense, and they did,
and they.
Speaker 3 (34:00):
Your death because there were more. He was actually charged
with more than than than ten robberies. He was charge
with a lot more, but they couldn't make them stick
so that he didn't get convicted of them.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
What they didn't get you for jay walking to well. Sure,
thank you for joining us. We appreciate the timetosh, thank you.
Speaker 4 (34:21):
Thank you for having us. I appreciate you look look
up the story, investigate the case yourself so you could
see everything that was done wrong. And when you purchased
the book you will see every We we re searched
every case that they put on me. Every case they
(34:43):
put on me was done wrong. Everything was done wrong.
Speaker 3 (34:49):
Yeah, the name of the.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
Film up well, Unseen inter Since it's the name of
the film, is the book, we'll be looking for that film. Letitia,
mister Williams, thank you for joining us, and we wish
you the best of luck.
Speaker 3 (35:04):
Thank you, Gerry, thank you, Boston.
Speaker 4 (35:06):
We appreciate it, thank.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
You so much. Wow, what a story. Again the documentary,
keep an eye out for it. They're looking for distribution.
Unseen Innocence and also fifty one used to life is
the name of the book on the death of Hollywood
actor South Mineo, in which Lionel Ray Ray Williams was set.
It's fifty win us to life. He did get out
(35:28):
after thirteen years. A lot of movie parts on that
one Lot to one pack coming up tonight eleven o'clock.
Sam Metler joins us as we talked to politics and
entertainment right here on WBZ.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
Now back to Dan ray Line from the Window World
night Side Studios on WBZ News Radio.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
You know, I love Aerosmith, absolutely love it. All the
great bands out of Boston. So many great bands came
out of this city. Jay Giles Band, Boston obviously, Aerosmith phenomenal,
(36:13):
I mean just absolutely phenomenal. I loved and you just
think that these guys are going to go on forever,
because you see Mick Jagger and the Rolling Stones at
eighty plus still selling out stadiums, and Keith Richards somehow
still out there playing guitar, and even Aerosmith like Stephen Tyler,
like the guy, you know, when was he when was
(36:34):
it never going to catch up to him? And now
it has. They're not going to be performing live anymore.
His voice. I mean that dude's voice. I mean, was
there a better live show voice than Steven Tyler. I'm
just talking off the top of my head, hear I'm thinking.
(37:00):
I mean there are other great bands, Don't get me wrong.
I mean that you could see lot. I mean, Bruce
Bruce's voice obviously was different than Tyler's. I mean, Bruce
had a it's got a strength to it, It's got
a blue collar tone to it. But Stephen Tyler's voice,
the range, my god, and the way he could like
(37:24):
sing the blues too, you know, Joe Perry and guitar,
I mean, phenomenal, absolutely phenomenal. I was. I was just
looking at some of their their albums. I remember Toys
in the Attic when that came out, and you know,
we all, hey, let's play the Big Tennant's Cricket. Oh.
(37:49):
That was a terrific album. And that was in nineteen
seventy three. Toys in the Addict sold eight million. That
was their third album. Carter Allen's got this up on
ZLX dot com, which is also a sister station. I mean, look,
Carter Allen's a guy that knows more about music than anybody.
Toys in the Attic I remember that was a great album.
(38:09):
Pumped to me was the one I loved, Loving an elevator,
phenomenal tune and the way he would use his voice,
going up and down like that permanent vacation. Let's see
(38:33):
it well, Rocks Rocks is legendary. Back in the saddle again,
Are you kidding me? Are you kidding me? Samuel Song
and Dance was great. Train kept the ruling. You know,
I had that blues thing to it, almost like a
Jay Giles type of thing, except a lot harder. Night
(38:56):
in the Ruts. That only sold a million. Huh, walk
in a hard place. I thought that would have sold
more than that. But I mean just as a singer,
and that at some point in time that voice had
to go right. Like I wonder that about Bruce. I mean,
how much longer can Bruce do it? I mean, Bruce
(39:18):
is seventy and he just keeps cranking it out. I mean, now,
the thing I hear about Springsteen is that he won't
talk for days before a show. No, he won't talk
at all before, just to keep his to keep his
voice intact. But Steven Tyler with the the hair, and
(39:45):
you know, he never whenever I saw him, and I
saw him at Foxborough once he was on the sidelines
of a Patriots game. Joe Perry too, But Steven Tyler
never looked like he should like grow like all right, dude,
give it up. You know you're eighty, you're seventy, you're whatever.
Even when he was on well not America's got talent,
(40:07):
what American idol? You know? He still could pull off
the long hair. He still could put off the rings,
the jewelry, the bandan is, the scarves, the scarves around
the microphone. He could still pull it off. He can.
He can still pull it off today. It's just his
(40:28):
voice can't do it anymore. What a band man, I'm okay,
I'm probably thinking maybe a c DC, not Angus. Angus
was the lead singer who died, but bon Scott Scott,
I know Brian, Brian If I got Brian's last name,
who was the lead singer of ac DC that took
(40:51):
over for bon Scott. That dude's voice, what he does
or has done, probably he and Tayba right there, and
the fact that he was still doing it up to
this point. Steven Tyler, good job, Aerosmith, one of the greats,
(41:11):
and I'm not going to do any more live shows.
You know what, dudes, it's okay. You've got a great run.
You deserve a break, which is what we'll take. Sam
Mettler on the tight presidential race, coming up next on
wb Z
It's Night Side with Dan Ray. I'm tell you easy
Boston News Radio right out.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Thanks a lot. I appreciate it, Garian for Daan. Tonight's
still to come on the show. We're going to talk
to the great Sam Metler. We'll discuss the world of politics,
what's going on now that Harris is definitely in. I
still say it would have been more fun to have
a convention, but nobody listens to me. That's all right,
But boy, she caught up quick with Trump. I think, hey,
as we'll talk to Sam about that. It was great
(00:29):
to have my buddy Rich Kimba Lahan talking about the
education of our youth and some of the things that
we need to change. Trendy Casey, my old friend from
NBC Sports talking about the Olympics. But right now we
are going to talk about a documentary, Unseen Innocence. It's
about the wrongful murder conviction of Lionel Ray Ray Williams,
who was sentenced to fifty one years to life in
(00:52):
March of nineteen seventy nine for the death of a
Hollywood actor, Salmoneo. The film is directed by Letitia McIntosh
uh and Ray Ray Williams is going to join us
as well along with Letitia. Thank you for joining us
here on WBC's Night Side.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
Oh, thank you so much for having us.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Well, we appreciate thank you, thank you. We appreciate that. So,
mister Williams, you prefer to go by Ray Ray or
Lionel or.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
Ray, I'd rather go by Ray. I've been called that
all my life.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Okay, Ray Ray sounds good to me. We appreciate that. So,
I mean, unfortunately, this story isn't unique around the world
or in the United States, but it's a story that
we need to continue to tell. So Letitia, tell us
(01:46):
how you became involved in this project.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
So I went to a film school program. I wanted
to learn how to animate my training videos. And when
I went to that film school program, I actually directed
a music video for a Southern soul artist and that
Southern soul artist manager tried to book him in mister
(02:11):
Williams Motorcycle Club. And that's how I got introduced to him.
When they called me on the phone and they told
me about his story, and I said, let me research
it a little bit. And then when I researched it,
I was like, okay, I would I would like to
help you tell your story.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
So if you can summarize his story for us, so in.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
A nutshell, mister Williams was sentenced fifty one years for
the murder of Salvatory Mineo Junior. He actually so, yep,
it was every unsolved robbery and the murder that happened
in that area in that in that time period around
that area. And so mister Mineo essentially was basically railroaded
(02:57):
like so many people are. He was put into him
a position where they follow this formula of where there's
eyewitness testimony. Then they're incentivizing people to testify and they
give them, you know, either time off, you know, they
give them money or something like that, and then you
(03:18):
may have prosecutorial misconduct as well as police miss conduct
that occurs. And so he was a victim of that.
That's basically why happen.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
It's so crazy because if you watch the trailer, and
you should check out the trailer, you can check that
out on YouTube. Again Unseen Innocence, And I mean, we're
not talking about nineteen fifty nine. We're not talking about
nineteen forty nine. We're not talking about nineteen thirty nine
and the Jim Crow South. You know, we're talking about
(03:48):
like nineteen eighty you know, I mean, we're talking about
to me what I considered to be contemporary times. Where
as you point out as ray ray you said, and
right in the trailer, that witness has said that the
person they saw walking away from the scene of the
(04:08):
crime was white.
Speaker 4 (04:10):
What was just?
Speaker 2 (04:13):
And there was what the ray ray? There were three?
Speaker 4 (04:16):
There was four people.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Four people. Run it down for me.
Speaker 4 (04:20):
It was four eyewitnesses, all of them are white. One
was a nine year old girl who witnessed the murder
under her window watching her mother back out the driveway. Uh.
It was another guy uh in the next apartments. Uh
was was a witness to the everything for him driving up,
(04:44):
getting out of his car and getting killed. You know,
he witnessed everything, and he was never used at trial.
He was never called. Why you don't call him eyewitness
that saw everything to court? Why did they hide this man?
(05:09):
I'm gonna tell you what they did. They used someone
else in his place. They brought in a grown man
that said that the murderer bumped into him and got
into his car. But the seventeen year old kid who
was supposed to be in that courtroom was never there.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
And the murder. So the grown man said, you were
the murderer.
Speaker 4 (05:38):
No, oh, no, no, I've been researching, he said, one
in the bushes. In the bushes, but it was only
one white person. Anybody who got in that car. There
was only one person they got in that car. All
(06:00):
the witnesses, the security guard, uh, and the man walking
the dog and the lady backing out said that it
was a white person. Well, let me tell you something though.
You know, in most cases, hold up. I believe in
(06:20):
every case, when when you got an eyewitness to a
well find crime like this, what do you think that
the DA should ask that person, that eyewitness? What do
you think the first thing they should ask that person?
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Who did you see in the scene of the crime?
Or are you racist?
Speaker 4 (06:45):
No? I'm not racist?
Speaker 2 (06:46):
No, no, no, you no, no, I understand that what
you should do? You asking me what the first question
should be?
Speaker 4 (06:52):
The first thing the d A or an attorney asked
an eyewitness to a crime, do you see that person
in the court room? They never asked that question.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
But I don't. I don't this whole thing. Look, I
just don't get it. Like I understand what you're saying
is the truth, And I'm gonna try to We're gonna
get into like why this happens, because to me, it
just seems to be easier on the taxpayer dollar to
listen to the witnesses and to just get this done
quicker in court. It seems to be more complicated to
(07:28):
put an innocent man in jail, is what I'm saying.
So I don't understand it. We'll continue the conversation. Unseen Innocence, UH,
the murder, the wrongful murder conviction of Lionel Railway Williams.
I tried to say more than this coming up on
night Side right after this.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Now back to Dan Ray Live from the Window World
night Side Studios on WBZ News Radio.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
Garry Tangae filling it for Dan Ray tonight. Unseen Innocence
the documentary about a manage centers through fifty one years
for a murder he did not commit. Unseen Innocence is
not just a documentary, it is a call to action
and the film was directed Yeah, the film was directed
by Letitia McIntosh and it talks about the just the
(08:13):
tragic situation situation. Ray Ray Williams is also our guest
who was convicted for fifty one years to life for
a murder and could not have committed that he did
not commit it, that he did not commit it.
Speaker 4 (08:27):
And it also says right here, I couldn't have committed it.
I couldn't have done it.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Well, right here it says, as I was reading Hollywood
actor sal Mineo's tragic murder, eyewitnesses described a five foot
nine white man with blondehair as the perpetrator, yet a
black man standing five to five with a large afro.
And I saw the video you had a large afro.
Sir found himself convicted and sentenced to fifty one years.
(08:54):
He has always maintained his innocence and he is fighting
to clear his name. So Letitia, can you do you
find a reason why he was wrongly convicted and why
the police did not take the evidence that was right
in front of them, you.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
Know, and not living in that time and being being
a child myself, I can't say. I can't get into
the minds, but we know the way this country was
and the way things were going, and it happens right
now to this very day. You know, we're really dealing
with wrongful convictions and people who are unjustly convicted of crimes.
The one thing that I really wanted to do was
(09:34):
help mister Williams tell his story. When he talked to me,
he said, I was no angel, but I did not
do this. And the biggest thing is giving him an
opportunity to separate his legacy from being the person who
was convicted and accused of killing Salmonio. So that because
what's on the internet, you know, being an it person,
(09:56):
I know that it will never go away, but at
least now you can combat a lot of the wrong
information that was fed to the media. A lot of
the information that you guys are going to look up
and see that information was information that was fed to
the media. That was probably what they wanted to do
just to close the case. That's the closest thing I
can think of.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
But that's just to say Ms Macintosh, sure you know,
I hear you. I mean, I got it. But Ray, Ray,
maybe you can help me out here. The easiest thing
to close the case would have been to listen to
the witnesses.
Speaker 4 (10:27):
Yeah, that's what I don't get.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
So I mean, in pure racism, I guess is I'm
trying to look for an answer that's beyond pure racism,
and I don't know if there is.
Speaker 4 (10:36):
One it is not. So that's what it is, pure racism,
you know, to get rid of you know, they you know,
they just wanted to get rid of us, you know,
by all means necessary, you know, uh, get get someone
to come to Gort and lie. You know, you know,
don't don't don't believe in the eyewitnesses. Believe in my witnesses,
(11:00):
because the eyewitnesses a lion. That's the way I got it,
you know, because you know, the jury should have believed
what the eyewitness has said instead of what the DA
witnesses said.
Speaker 3 (11:20):
Him all the way around. I mean, when I listen
to mister Williams tell the story, when I look at
what happens when he's the only one who was in
the court and he's the one that has the court documents,
he has his inmate copies of the trial records, and
all the information that's on the media is not what
he has in his records. And so that's the biggest
(11:41):
thing for him to clear his name, is for him
to have the opportunity to get in front of the
right people. That's why we want people to buy the book,
because if you buy the books Unseen Innocence, then the
name off one years to life. But you can buy
the book at Unseen Innocence dot Com. You'll get an
opportunity to walk the walk that heat as he's explains
(12:01):
how everything happened to him in court, how they utilized
his seventeen year old wife, how they utilized people who
were supposedly friends, How they utilize all those type of
people to you know, testify against them, and then Railroad
and him in so many different ways, you know.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
Did they use let Teacha, How did they use his
seventeen year old wife and his friends?
Speaker 3 (12:23):
Would they had her say that he came home covered
in blood, and they had another guy say that he
came home and said that he killed how many of them?
And then they they that's the type of stuff that
they were putting out. They had all kinds of nonsense.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
But so what did they Why did his wife say that?
What did they they must have they gave her? Did
they bribe her? Did they threaten her?
Speaker 4 (12:45):
They threatened her?
Speaker 3 (12:47):
They threatened her, and she had gotten herself in some trouble,
and she had they had children, they were married, that
they had children, and then they used that and held
that over her head, you know, so that they could
so they were they were.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Going to threaten to take away the kids.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
Exactly.
Speaker 4 (13:06):
Yeah, okay, that's what it was.
Speaker 3 (13:08):
She wound up shooting herself in the head. She didn't
commit suicide, but she did shoot herself in the head
because of the pressure that she was under from those
police officers at that time. So she lived, she did live,
and she's still alive now.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Wow. So it was an attempted suicide.
Speaker 4 (13:27):
No, she tried. She she she shot herself with her
twenty two and it you know, so you know she
she she lived, twenty two is not going to do
that much damaged close range, Okay, So you know, so
it went in, went in her head, but it took
a piece of her ear off, went in her head.
(13:51):
She went blind for a while and then she got
her eyesight back and then So how did.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
The circumstances point to you? Were you in the vicinity
of the crime at the time? No, okay, So where
were you when this, when this murder, when this murder
and when this whole crime went down? Where were you?
I was that my brother does how many miles a well?
Speaker 4 (14:15):
Uh, I could say it was thirty five minutes away
from the murder scene.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Okay. So how did they finger you for this?
Speaker 3 (14:25):
The yellow car?
Speaker 4 (14:27):
The yellow car?
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Okay, explain can you explain it to me, Letitia?
Speaker 3 (14:32):
Well, Ray Ray could explain it to you better, but
I can tell you the next show. What happened was
the Sheriff's office put out a message saying that if
anybody had, you know, knows anything about a yellow car
being loaned or rented or anything. So Ray Ray says
that O'Connor Lincoln, which is where he rented this yellow
car from Yellow he rented a yellow Dodge Colt because
(14:55):
he had a car that wasn't working that he bought
from them, and they gave him that as a loaner,
and he had that car. He said that the car
had some technical issues, some mechanical issues. He wound up
returning the car to them. He didn't even have the
car that long. However, there was a yellow car that
was seen by the eyewitnesses that the perpetrator got into. However,
(15:19):
it was a yellow Toyota. And the reason why we
know for sure it's a yellow Toyota is because when
the prosecutor was talking to the eyewitness, he asked him
about the car several times, and he said, are you sure.
Do you think it's a yellow He said, I know
it's a yellow Toyota because my brother has the same car.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
Would it have been so hard to actually run down
so what they did. So it seems to me what
happened here is that the first yellow car they found,
they said this is the guy.
Speaker 4 (15:52):
Yeah, basically basically built the case around when they finally
got When they finally got around to me, I was
on my way being extradited to Michigan the Battle Creek
to face charges out there, and they came to see
me right before I was extradited. And they came and saying, uh,
(16:13):
uh I had a yellow car. I said, yeah, I
had a yellow car, you know. They say what kind
of car was it? I said, uh, I had a
dodge coat. You said, he shured, wasn't a Tyota? Nos
dodge coat and uh. And they asked me, did I
loaned the car to any of my white friends? I
said no, I had the car returned back, uh to
(16:35):
Old Conn of Lincoln before the It was nightfall, So
you had.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
The car returned before the crime took place.
Speaker 4 (16:41):
Yeah, yeah, Jesus, yeah, his wife check this out. The
they when they brought the rental agreement back into court.
You know, Uh, I never noticed, but the knowledge going
going out because I didn't bought vehicles from these people before.
(17:05):
They always put the miles going out and the miles
coming in. The miles coming in is not on the
paper Why Why because it would have proved, because it
would have proved that the mouse that I put on
there would have been from O'Connor Lincoln to my mother's
(17:28):
house on ninety third normany you know, and it wouldn't
have been no more extra miles from from there to
Western Shirt plus to Hollywood. No, those miles wouldn't have never.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
It wouldn't have added up.
Speaker 4 (17:44):
Right.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
What about the time could what about the time that
you returned the car?
Speaker 4 (17:50):
No, the car was returned right, So it.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
Wasn't The time that you returned the car was not
on the paperwork.
Speaker 4 (17:57):
None of that wasn't It wasn't none, none of what
we're doing the paperwork.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
What was the charge about a pret sure?
Speaker 4 (18:05):
Uh?
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Forger okay, So you're past like you said, you were
not an angel, but you were never a violent man.
Speaker 4 (18:15):
No, you know, I ain't no pump. You know, I
ain't nothing soft about me. But uh, you know, I
ain't no killer, right, So.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
I don't understand the motive here. So what they're saying
is that you killed him for money.
Speaker 4 (18:31):
And I had a money and you what, look, look
I was I was selling dope. I was a drug dealer,
and I was a pimp, you know what I'm saying.
So I was getting my money from a lot of
different angles. You know, I didn't need to go out
on the street and rob people for pocket change. You know,
if I was gonna be the person to rob some something,
(18:54):
I'm gonna rob a jewelry store, I'm gonna rob a credigion,
I'm gonna rob something with some money at you know,
I'm not. I wouldn't waste my time on street robbers.
How much you gonna get out of a person's pocket
twenty five thirty bucks back then, ain't no money?
Speaker 2 (19:09):
I mean, so r what was the crime? And we
was the guy that was was sal outside his home
and this person just killed him for money? Or was
there something else going on here?
Speaker 4 (19:22):
Unless he got paid to kill that man? He didn't ask,
He didn't have no conversation with Salmony. Them from the
eyewood from the seventeen year old, he said that the
man just walked up to him kidding. He went down.
He ran down the alley. There was no conversation, give
me your money, give me your watch, what's in your wallet,
(19:46):
what's in your briefcase? None of that. That man was
sent there to kill him for a reason, so he killed.
Speaker 3 (19:55):
I don't know, Jerry. Let me clarify something for you.
So Rayway had mentioned you about the man walking the dogs.
So here's what I discovered in Ray Ray's paperwork. There
was a man. His name was Stephen Gustison. He went
in front of the grand jury. Now I found Stephen
Gustinson and asked him if we could interview him. When
we interviewed him, I said, mister gustuson, how come you
(20:17):
never pointed Ray Ray out in court? He said, I
never went to court, And I was like, what do
you mean? I was like, he was like, I only
testified in front of the grand jury. However, in Ray
Ray's official inmate copies, there is a Stephen Gustison that
testified in court, and Ray Ray remembers a grown man
in court Crosine. However, Stephen Gustinson was only seventeen years old.
(20:41):
He was a child's actor from the Electric Company days.
That's and so we believe they hit him out. And
so somebody else testified in the court, but with my
doctor Hennery. Mister Gustinson says, I was standing there with
my dog about fifty feet away on the other side
of the fence. I saw sal many old drive up
Parkers car, get out his car, walk past the first
(21:03):
and the first entrance and into the second entrance where
his apartment is. He said, the person ran into him,
hit him once, took off, and he said, I couldn't
even see him. He ran into the darkness. He was
like in sw Minyo, hit the ground, and then I
saw the bucket of blood just coming out of him.
The blood was just coming out. And so at that
(21:24):
point that was when the other white, white witnesses said
that they saw a white man. The nine year old
girl saw a white man run past her window. The
security guard who was by where the car was parked,
he saw the white man hop.
Speaker 4 (21:36):
Into the car and take her mother saw the man
run past her car.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
So hold on, folks, So why was there a robbery
charge if there was no robbery.
Speaker 3 (21:45):
There was no robbery.
Speaker 4 (21:47):
It was no robbery doing you. The whole case is illegal.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
Right, But what I'm saying there's no robbery. But yeah, Ray,
I just want to make sure. I want to make
sure everybody understands. I want to make sure everybody It
says the witnesses that there was no robbery, there was
no money taken from sal But you were charged with
murder and robbery.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
Okay, murder and rob but not the robbery of Salmonio.
They didn't convict him of the robbery of salmon.
Speaker 4 (22:17):
I got found not guilty of the robbery. Ye.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
Well, yeah, because there was none. Okay, So we're telling
me that Salmonio died by one punch.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
One hit in the heart. Whoever, they didn't know what
they were doing.
Speaker 4 (22:35):
Yeah, So okay, So you think this person was way
taller than me and.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
Obviously much whiter, right, and blond Yeah, and blonde hair.
I mean you couldn't. I mean, listen, Ray, you couldn't
get more opposite. I mean, come on, you know. So
so this guy, so you guys think this was a
paid head where he comes up, punches him in the heart,
executes him, and then they pined on Ray. So do
you think this was a paid.
Speaker 4 (23:00):
Had It was two years later. That's the only thing
that that I can come to my mind that he
was killed by somebody for a reason.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
Letcha you said two years later?
Speaker 3 (23:14):
What it was two years later when mister Williams was
convicted of the crime. So they needed to close the case.
That's all it was to it. They just needed to
close the case. So they built it that when you
look at the timeline, they started the whole process. They
started the whole nonsense to Williams. When about that O'Connor
Lincoln car, And then they started building the case, and
(23:34):
then they started coming up with all these things that
they were feeding to the media. He was telling people
that he did it, and they was there's jailhouse confessions
and he was bragging about it in jail and there's
no proof to that. And he started out, they want
I have newspaper articles that he wrote. He wrote an
article to a magazine publication called The Players, where he
was asking for them to help him because he did
(23:57):
not commit this robbery. He has in his inmate copies
of the record. There's some trial transcripts of their conversations
that were taped with the other the people in the jail,
and he didn't say anything about killing, said how many
and he was talking to them and telling him they
trying to pend this. I mean, these are the transcripts,
but that's not what's in the media. When you google it,
(24:18):
that's not what you're going to see. You can see
nonsense about him doing a seance. You un to see
all kinds of nonsense that's out there because Faminio was
the darling of so many people because of the revel
without a Cause, and then also in the late sixties
early seventies, he came out as being bisexual, which was
not popular in that timeframe, and he took a hit
(24:40):
for it. So he's the darling of the LBGTQ community.
So a lot of the videos that you see now,
a lot of the YouTube videos, a lot of the
articles and things that are written is written by people
who have a lot of respect for him, but they're
all feeding off the same incorrect information that was placed
out there.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
Seen Innostance is the documentary about the wrongful murder conviction
of Ray Ray Williams. Ray Ray is our guest along
with Lutitia McIntosh, the director of the film. Some more
questions as we discussed this, and I want to know
what Ray's doing now and what's his state of mind.
That's all coming up next on WBZ.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
It's a Night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ, Boston's
news radio.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
We'll going back to Knightside. Gary Tang waiting for Dan tonight.
Sam Methler joins us. Coming up at eleven o'clock talk.
It's some more politics on what's going on with the
presidential race right now. And I got some comments on
Aerosmith coming up, so you want to stick around for that.
Ray Ray Williams is joining us along with the film
directed by Letitia McIntosh, Unseen Innocence, a documentary about the
(25:47):
wrongful murder conviction of mister Williams. So, if I have
this correct, you were a parole in nineteen ninety, sir, Yes, yes,
parold in nineteen ninety. So you serve twelve years?
Speaker 4 (26:01):
Well it's thirteen on the gong.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
Do you think that you were paroled because somebody was
trying to do him make good? Because to serve thirteen
years for a murder and get paroled it seems to
be pretty lenient. Was somebody trying to make up for
a make up for past sins?
Speaker 4 (26:19):
Oh no, I don't know what I had.
Speaker 5 (26:22):
My cousin Fernando Jackson, who was a jail house attorney,
have my sentence overturned. Yeah, that's what every appellate attorney
I had couldn't find a way to get this beat
this case off of me. So my cousin figured out
(26:42):
a way and he saw that I was sentenced wrong.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
So letitia was this was this like a loophole or
did they did somebody actually buy the evidence? Were they
able to own overturn it for a clerical issue?
Speaker 3 (26:57):
It wasn't even a clerical issue, was it. That's a
claricul issue. I know that he basically knew that there
was some things that went wrong in the original trial,
and so being a jailhouse attorney and having the you know,
strong knowledge of the law, he was able to help
mister Williams get what he needed, which was to get
the sentence reduced so that he could be paroled. And
(27:22):
that is in a nutshell what happened. His sentence was
reduced and then he's been out for what over twenty
five years, and he's not had any issues, you know,
just lived his life, moved on from it. He wasn't
even going to deal with this. This whole thing came
up because of his was your son at seven at
the time, Yeah, get the seven year old son, and
(27:45):
somebody told his mother told him about it.
Speaker 4 (27:49):
Mother told him that I was a murderer. And he
went in to a quiet mode on us when it
was our turn to have him at my right, and
then we just ask him what's wrong. He said, well,
my mother said that you're a killer. You know, he said, please,
don't don't don't, don't kill bad Man, don't kill Robin,
(28:11):
don't kill Spider Man. You know, his his people, you know,
his cartoon characters. You know. He at that time, I
guess you believed him to be real, you know. And he,
you know, from what his mother told him, you know.
And I told him, I said, well, I'm sorry, but
your mama's a lot, you know. And and you know,
(28:33):
but like I said in the documentary, you know, I
don't know what's going on in his head, you know,
because things have changed since then, you know. I mean,
it's hard for him to say he loves me. Now
he's ten years old. You know, it's weird. You know,
he's still looking at me as a killer. Yeah, And
(28:57):
he seemed and he seemed he's seen the documentary and
started crying. That's the cold thing. He couldn't even watch
the rest of it. He said, Dad, they were beating you,
they were hurting you. I said, yes, they were, you know.
And he couldn't understand that. He couldn't understand that. He said,
(29:17):
I don't want to I don't want to see this
no more, you know, cut it off that I wanted
him to see.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Well, it's exceptionally hard to watch, I'm sure. So your
pure motivation is to prove your innocence to your son.
Speaker 4 (29:36):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
Well, that's admirable, sir, I mean that that is that
is certainly admirable. And was this the woman his mother?
Is she the one that testified against you?
Speaker 4 (29:48):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (29:48):
No, oh no, no, okay, okay.
Speaker 3 (29:53):
Now mister Winson married about four times.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
So letitia, what is the next step here? Where can
we see the documentary? And also if you want to
mention the name of the book again.
Speaker 3 (30:04):
I'm so glad that you mention that. So if you
go to Unseen Innocence dot com you will be able
to purchase the book fifty one years to life. And
then we are working on distribution. We have had some meetings.
If the goal is to get the documentary so we
can have it out there so people can watch the documentary,
and then we also want to do a movie because
the movie will then allow us to or a series,
(30:26):
to delve into all of the intricacies of this story
because there is a lot to it. There's a lot
to unpack, and so the documentary can only touch the
surface of things. But if we can do a movie,
that would allow us to really get into the full
intricacies all the way through, you know, and even up
to now.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
So, Letitia, this is the only film you've done.
Speaker 4 (30:50):
No, sir.
Speaker 3 (30:51):
I have a movie that I did when I came
out of film school. It's called Freshman. It's fresh and
the word mulamb denou with the with the Greek letter
in ulan the new it looks like the word man.
But Freshman is a movie that deals with college fraternities
and date rate.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
So this okay. So, but from did you feel you
were going to be a documentarian? I mean, you did
that out of college, but from what I read, you
were looking to do animation and when you stumbled upon
this story, you had a calling to do it.
Speaker 3 (31:21):
And yeah, I felt like this was an assignment that
guy gave me. To help mister Williams tell his story
because my background was in it. I worked in public
accurning firms and I was a trainer and I just
wanted to learn how to animate my training videos, which
is why I went to film school. So when I
finished it, before I did the music video, and I
did a couple other little projects and stuff like that.
(31:41):
But when I got introduced to him. The other thing
about sal Many is my brother's name was sal My
deceased brother's name was Sala. So I was like, there
was It made me pay attention a little bit more.
But I read about it and I was like, I'll
come from the adage. It doesn't sound right. There's a
lion there somewhere. And the problem that I had was
that witnesses saw a white man and he was clearly
(32:03):
a light skinned black man with an afro. He can't
even pass He's not you know, he's not like Rashida Jones.
He can't even pass for white. He is a traditional,
light complexed black man. So I was like, this doesn't
all right. So I just wanted to help him tell
his story. That was all I wanted to do was
help him get a story out.
Speaker 4 (32:24):
Okay, but checked this out. Ten minutes later, I'm three
blocks over. Now I'm not in a yellow car. Now
I'm in a four door white car. And now I'm
bad headed, and now I have a crime partner with me,
(32:46):
and we're robbing someone else on the street three blocks over.
Ten minutes later, that I went from blonde hair to
no hair, yellow car to a big white car, and
now I got a crime partner in ten minutes.
Speaker 3 (33:10):
Would he would he's speaking to the robberies that he
was convicted of. That is part of the reason why
since got overturned, because the robberies that were tied to
his conviction, they were unsolved robberies that happened in the area,
and so they tied a lot of it. It was
one of the robberies. He wasn't in the hospital when
the robbery occurred.
Speaker 2 (33:31):
So the robbery had nothing to do with sal Mineo.
Speaker 3 (33:35):
No, these were just okay when we buried okay, but
they were part of the sentencing.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
Well, we buried the lead on that because.
Speaker 4 (33:45):
They used the robberies to make the murder stronger.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
Well, No, what they were doing is they were trying
to solve as many they were trying to shut as
many cases as possible at your expense, and they did,
and they.
Speaker 3 (34:00):
Your death because there were more. He was actually charged
with more than than than ten robberies. He was charge
with a lot more, but they couldn't make them stick
so that he didn't get convicted of them.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
What they didn't get you for jay walking to well. Sure,
thank you for joining us. We appreciate the timetosh, thank you.
Speaker 4 (34:21):
Thank you for having us. I appreciate you look look
up the story, investigate the case yourself so you could
see everything that was done wrong. And when you purchased
the book you will see every We we re searched
every case that they put on me. Every case they
(34:43):
put on me was done wrong. Everything was done wrong.
Speaker 3 (34:49):
Yeah, the name of the.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
Film up well, Unseen inter Since it's the name of
the film, is the book, we'll be looking for that film. Letitia,
mister Williams, thank you for joining us, and we wish
you the best of luck.
Speaker 3 (35:04):
Thank you, Gerry, thank you, Boston.
Speaker 4 (35:06):
We appreciate it, thank.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
You so much. Wow, what a story. Again the documentary,
keep an eye out for it. They're looking for distribution.
Unseen Innocence and also fifty one used to life is
the name of the book on the death of Hollywood
actor South Mineo, in which Lionel Ray Ray Williams was set.
It's fifty win us to life. He did get out
(35:28):
after thirteen years. A lot of movie parts on that
one Lot to one pack coming up tonight eleven o'clock.
Sam Metler joins us as we talked to politics and
entertainment right here on WBZ.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
Now back to Dan ray Line from the Window World
night Side Studios on WBZ News Radio.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
You know, I love Aerosmith, absolutely love it. All the
great bands out of Boston. So many great bands came
out of this city. Jay Giles Band, Boston obviously, Aerosmith phenomenal,
(36:13):
I mean just absolutely phenomenal. I loved and you just
think that these guys are going to go on forever,
because you see Mick Jagger and the Rolling Stones at
eighty plus still selling out stadiums, and Keith Richards somehow
still out there playing guitar, and even Aerosmith like Stephen Tyler,
like the guy, you know, when was he when was
(36:34):
it never going to catch up to him? And now
it has. They're not going to be performing live anymore.
His voice. I mean that dude's voice. I mean, was
there a better live show voice than Steven Tyler. I'm
just talking off the top of my head, hear I'm thinking.
(37:00):
I mean there are other great bands, Don't get me wrong.
I mean that you could see lot. I mean, Bruce
Bruce's voice obviously was different than Tyler's. I mean, Bruce
had a it's got a strength to it, It's got
a blue collar tone to it. But Stephen Tyler's voice,
the range, my god, and the way he could like
(37:24):
sing the blues too, you know, Joe Perry and guitar,
I mean, phenomenal, absolutely phenomenal. I was. I was just
looking at some of their their albums. I remember Toys
in the Attic when that came out, and you know,
we all, hey, let's play the Big Tennant's Cricket. Oh.
(37:49):
That was a terrific album. And that was in nineteen
seventy three. Toys in the Addict sold eight million. That
was their third album. Carter Allen's got this up on
ZLX dot com, which is also a sister station. I mean, look,
Carter Allen's a guy that knows more about music than anybody.
Toys in the Attic I remember that was a great album.
(38:09):
Pumped to me was the one I loved, Loving an elevator,
phenomenal tune and the way he would use his voice,
going up and down like that permanent vacation. Let's see
(38:33):
it well, Rocks Rocks is legendary. Back in the saddle again,
Are you kidding me? Are you kidding me? Samuel Song
and Dance was great. Train kept the ruling. You know,
I had that blues thing to it, almost like a
Jay Giles type of thing, except a lot harder. Night
(38:56):
in the Ruts. That only sold a million. Huh, walk
in a hard place. I thought that would have sold
more than that. But I mean just as a singer,
and that at some point in time that voice had
to go right. Like I wonder that about Bruce. I mean,
how much longer can Bruce do it? I mean, Bruce
(39:18):
is seventy and he just keeps cranking it out. I mean, now,
the thing I hear about Springsteen is that he won't
talk for days before a show. No, he won't talk
at all before, just to keep his to keep his
voice intact. But Steven Tyler with the the hair, and
(39:45):
you know, he never whenever I saw him, and I
saw him at Foxborough once he was on the sidelines
of a Patriots game. Joe Perry too, But Steven Tyler
never looked like he should like grow like all right, dude,
give it up. You know you're eighty, you're seventy, you're whatever.
Even when he was on well not America's got talent,
(40:07):
what American idol? You know? He still could pull off
the long hair. He still could put off the rings,
the jewelry, the bandan is, the scarves, the scarves around
the microphone. He could still pull it off. He can.
He can still pull it off today. It's just his
(40:28):
voice can't do it anymore. What a band man, I'm okay,
I'm probably thinking maybe a c DC, not Angus. Angus
was the lead singer who died, but bon Scott Scott,
I know Brian, Brian If I got Brian's last name,
who was the lead singer of ac DC that took
(40:51):
over for bon Scott. That dude's voice, what he does
or has done, probably he and Tayba right there, and
the fact that he was still doing it up to
this point. Steven Tyler, good job, Aerosmith, one of the greats,
(41:11):
and I'm not going to do any more live shows.
You know what, dudes, it's okay. You've got a great run.
You deserve a break, which is what we'll take. Sam
Mettler on the tight presidential race, coming up next on
wb Z
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