August 29, 2024 • 39 mins
This week marks the 10-year anniversary of the Market Basket protests where employees and customers alike rallied together to support Market Basket CEO Arthur T Demoulas, who was ousted from his job by his cousin amid a long-running family feud. Case studies were done about the protests calling them, “the most unprecedented worker action that we’ve seen in our century.” Were you part of the protests? Is there any store or establishment you feel so passionately about that you would stick your neck out for like Market Basket? This hour MIT Sloan School of Management Professor Thomas Kochan joined Dan Rea to discuss.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
It's nice side with WBS video all right.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
I think all of us of a certain vintage will
well remember the big battle over market Basket. The future
of market Basket, I think the best grocery chain in
New England. That's a point of view.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
I think that we have.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
We're blessed with some really good grocery change. I think
Roach Brothers great local chain. I'm not as enamored with
the chains from that are owned by big corporate interests
from around the country, and I think most of you
know that, But for me, it's Market Basket and Roach Brothers.
(00:44):
In market Basket certainly, I think is the odds on
favorite of most of my listeners. But it was ten
years ago when the Market Basket broke out into a
civil war between a couple of cousins who were fighting
for support of Market Basket, and it was pretty dramatic.
I mean, it wasn't, as I said earlier, the Hatfields
versus the McCoy's. It was a demulus against the Demulis
(01:06):
and the membership, the employees, the customer base. They all
sided with the ultimate winner, Arthur Demulis.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
But it was a struggle.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
And we're delighted to be joined tonight by professor at
the MIT School Sloan of Management, which is one of
the great business schools in the country, Professor Thomas Cocon
And again, I'm trying as best I can to give
you but the proper pronunciation of that name. And if
I'm getting anywhere close, let me know. Okay, how are you, Professor?
Speaker 4 (01:47):
I'm good, Dan, And if my mother was still with us,
she'd be proud of you.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
You got it right, Thank you. You did. You did
a thesis on this.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
You authored a case study, if you will, not on
a thesis, but your co author a case study about
the protests. Were you in the area at the time.
Did you watch it unfold or is there something that
you came to after the event this pitched battle in
the summer of twenty fourteen.
Speaker 4 (02:18):
Oh, we were in the area. And in fact, if
you ask my wife about it, what did we do
in the summer of twenty fourteen, she'll just roll her
eyes and say market basket. It wasn't her favorite experience,
but it took up very much of our summer, and
(02:39):
rightfully so, because there was such a unique, unprecedented event
and development, and so interesting from the standpoint of someone
like me who studied labor management relations since the nineteen
seventies when I first started in this field, and this
was something I had never encountered. A group of managers, executives, clerks,
(03:06):
warehouse workers, truck drivers all walking out together in a
non union setting. Uh. I had to think a lot
about how to how to interpret this at the beginning
and whether this, uh, whether this could.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Last now it unfolded before your eyes. The business school, generally,
I don't I don't think you have classes during the summer.
I think it's a fall, winter, spring, and normally you
get a chance to relax during the summer. When did
you when did this first? Were you aware of this
(03:42):
and attentive to it as it was bubbling up? And
the fight, the the proxy fight that was going on
in June which led to the to the to the nastiness.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
Of late June and July.
Speaker 4 (03:58):
Well, actually I didn't know anything about it until I
got a call from an NPR reporter asking me what
do I think about this? And I said about what,
we have a nice little place up here in New
Hampshire on a nice little lake, and I was, you know,
minding my own business here and not paying attention to
(04:19):
too many events. But this would have been about three
days into it, and this reporter said, well, you better,
you better check this out because I think you'll find
it interesting. And then I want to call you back,
and so I did. And so I was about three
days into it when I first encountered it, and once
I started to learn about what was happening and why
(04:43):
it was unfolding, I just got absorbed by it. And
then you know, once, as Dan as you know, once
you speak to a media professional in one setting, whether
it's radio or uh the print or TV, it it
(05:04):
sort of multiplies and you you get more calls. And
so that's where it starts. And were deeper into.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
It, I could say that you were sort of like
those green flies professor from Sloan from Sloan talk to us, all,
so let's.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
Get up there.
Speaker 4 (05:28):
Yeah, now it it had so I got a lot
of media calls. But then as it unfolded, Uh, you know,
I do mediation of labor management disputes, and I have
a lot of experience with that, and I kept thinking,
you a rule number one of a mediator is you
don't intervene. You get asked by the parties to help them,
(05:53):
so you don't butt in. And I was determined not
to butt into anybody's business if I wasn't asked. But
then I started to get discreet calls from some of
the parties and from from others who asked, you know,
what I thought, and how could we get get this resolved?
(06:16):
And so then I started to do a little bit
more work behind the scenes to try to understand it
in more depth and to see how to interpret it.
And then I wrote various pieces, one for the Boston Globe,
actually two, I think it was for the Globe, and
(06:37):
for Cognizanti the National Public Radio, you know, w b
u R print outlet and and other things.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
And so they steal all they steal all those fancy
Latin words like cogniscanti.
Speaker 4 (06:54):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll give you a quarter if
you can, right.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
I think I could Latin school. I taught me how
to spell Latin words. But that's okay.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
Well, so you never.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Entered as an arbitration or as a mediat or anything
like that, but you began to do your homework and
you eventually ended up co authoring a book about this.
Speaker 4 (07:20):
It's a case study. Yeah, and at one point I
did write a piece for the Globe editorial page. This
was about maybe three weeks into it, outlining what I
felt needed to happen to get this resolve successfully. And
(07:42):
you could see the the you know, the contours of
what had to happen. The customers weren't going to come
back unless the employees were going to come back. The
employees weren't going to come back unless Arthur T came back.
Arthur T wasn't going to get back unless there was
(08:02):
some kind of a deal for him to have equity
and take over the business. And that could have been
done in a variety of different ways. So it was
it was fairly straightforward to lay that out and and
that's eventually essentially what happened is obviously is you know,
eventually the board relented and sold the business to Arthur T.
(08:28):
But it took a while for that process to play
itself out. And meanwhile, what was so remarkable was that
these employees held together for six weeks. And they held
together largely because they all knew each other. But in addition,
(08:52):
the most important development of this case was it was
the customers. The customers were the source of power that
kept the employees out there and support it at least psychologically.
And finally it was the customers who brought the board
(09:12):
to realize it's the only way we're going to resolve
this is to put Arthur T back in charge in
some fashion.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
What that's such a quick and brilliant analysis of how
it actually came to be resolved. I got to take
a break. I want to talk now about how this
company has come back as a result of that six
week into a little There was a lot of debt
that piled up, and we to talk about that. Were
(09:43):
the company is today as where it was ten years ago?
And maybe we'll take some phone calls if you're going
to stay with us until nine thirty. If a couple
of folks would like to talk to a business Sloan
Business School professor at MIT.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
They don't get any smarter than than these folks.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Six one seven, four ten thirty, six one seven, nine thirty.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
My name is Dan Ray.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
After nine thirty, we'll talk about market Basket and we'll
talk about your experience and were you one of those
customers who stayed away? Were you one of those employees?
But right now you can talk with Professor Thomas Cocan
of MIT's Sloan Business School, which is one of the
greatest business schools in the world, as well of course.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
As the country. Back on Night's Side right after these messages.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
Now back to Dan Ray live from the Window World
Night Side Studios on WBZ News Radio.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
We're talking with Sloan Business School professor and MIT professor
Thomas Colcan, and you had this was confusing because it
was an interfamilial feud between two cousins. Arthur T was
the the Demula's cousin that had all the support. Was
that Arthur s was the other side of the aisle,
(10:59):
as it were in this case.
Speaker 4 (11:02):
Yes, that's right, that's right.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
So what had Arthur T done to have won that
such support not only of his workers, his non union workers,
but also of his customers.
Speaker 4 (11:17):
Well, this is another really important to mention to the
story and to the lessons to learn from it, and
that is that Arthur T, over the course of many years,
had demonstrated his commitment to really being responsive to his
employees and his customers, concerned about them on a personal level,
(11:38):
certainly on a professional level, to retain employees. As you know,
when you shop at market Basket, it will each employee
will have a little uh signet, little piece of his
or her uniform that says, I'm Sue, I've been here
twenty seven years or ten years or six months for
(11:59):
that month. And you know, he valued employees and he
knew that employees were key to providing high quality service
to customers, and he held them accountable for doing that.
But he supported them in times of crisis. The stories
that I heard from various people who contacted me during
(12:20):
that period of time about, you know, the things he
did to support people when they lost the loved one
or in a car accident, needed a child, needed a
special care, and he called the parents and said do
we need to move this child to Boston to one
of the hospitals. He didn't say do you need to move?
(12:42):
He said do we need to do it? And that's
just one example of his leadership. And so he ran
the company and was actively involved and worked his way
up over the years from all the different jobs in
the store to the CEO's role. Arthur s really was
(13:05):
interested only for financial reasons. As the story goes, he
worked a little bit there when he was a teenager,
wasn't particularly committed and and really was only interested in
the returns that the business was provided. So that's that's
the basis, UH for the difference.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
My producer, excuse my producer told me that during this, uh,
this six week period, and I'm relying upon my producer
has a pretty good memory. He said that that that
that Arthur s or that the people who at that
point were holding full they still ran the company. And
Arthur T was on the outside that they ran a
(13:49):
four percent off your bill sale your entire bill as
as an incentive, an inducement to have customers come back.
And and even that offer, uh was not enough to
lure customers back into the store. I'm again, I hope
my producers correct on this, but is that true?
Speaker 4 (14:08):
Yeah? That was one that was one of the things
they did. They hired also two new executives to run
the company, experienced in the in the retail sector, not
incompetent people, but they couldn't build the support needed to
get the employees back. And you can offer four percent
(14:32):
off the bill, but if you don't have anything in
the store to sell, that doesn't do any good. And
it was the coalition between the customers and the employees
that allowed them to be out there for that long
and to be successful in the end, and there was
no financial incentive to bring customers back that was going
(14:55):
to work. Those customers said, you know that's my store.
I know those employees. I see them when I go there.
They greet me, and you know, we ask about each
other's family. You can't you can't incentivize your way out
of that that kind of relationship.
Speaker 3 (15:13):
This, I bet you you probably have taught a course
on this in MT.
Speaker 4 (15:18):
I suspect yes. In fact, we did a symposium one
evening with a group of people and I brought in
four or five of my colleagues from other parts of
the Sloan School and the Kennedy School who specialized in
different things from corporate governance to finance, to marketing and
(15:43):
so on, for them to be on panels and to
ask them what they thought of this. And it was
really interesting because they obviously weren't as familiar, but they
got it and they understood once they read a little
bit about did their preparation for that evening, why this
(16:04):
uh one was very unique and too, why it could
be successful and and Dan, you know what this this
really signified to me and to them, this is the
kind of company that the American public is so thirsty
for a good company, a company that's good to your customers,
that gives fair prices, low prices, high quality, and good
(16:27):
to its employees. And we just don't see enough of
that across the country. And when we see it, or
when the public sees it, they say, boy, that sounds
right to me, and I ought to support that. So
we need we need to learn from that.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
Why are companies, other companies not learning from that?
Speaker 4 (16:47):
Because they're they're financial institutions and they're they're they're they're
in the maximize shareholder returns, sometimes short term, sometimes long term,
but they're not There's not enough companies that see themselves
as getting a good return by being a very very
(17:08):
good high what we call high road employer. And we
need more of those. We still need them today. I
still teach when I when I write things I draw
on market basket. I was asked to write something just
this week about it, and so it resonates with the
(17:30):
public and when you see it, you know that you
should support it.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Sadly, Oftentimes, in my experience, the best companies of the
companies that go out of business, and a lot of
the bad companies.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
Hang on, let me.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
Grab a quick phone call for you here, so we'll
get one question from our from our another studio audience,
from our audience at large. I'm going to go to Gary,
who checks in from Wuburn. Gary, you're on with Professor
Thomas Kocher.
Speaker 5 (17:59):
Go right ahead, Gary, Yes, Professor, I'm sixty one years
of age. I've said this separate story before. I don't
necessarily have a question.
Speaker 4 (18:07):
But you probably know about it.
Speaker 5 (18:08):
One of the greatest things that Macabasket ever did. This
is going to sound very unusual, Dan, and it's the truth.
They did one month where all the bread was half
price for the whole month of December during the holidays.
Give it take eight years ago, give it take fifteen
years ago. And I jumped all over it because I'm
(18:29):
a single guy. I have all kinds of friends, and
I distributed to all kinds of families. And I'm sure
you know about it. And I was spending one hundred
dollars a week, four dollars for then cut down the
two and I'm very proud of it. I just wanted
to share that story with you guys.
Speaker 4 (18:44):
Continue on, Thank you, Okay.
Speaker 3 (18:49):
I was going to tell you that they did that.
Did they do that? Professor?
Speaker 4 (18:52):
If you know, not news to me, but I wouldn't
be surprised, gotcha?
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Okay, okay, Well again, this is the company that is successful,
as I understand that and helped me out if I'm wrong.
Speaker 3 (19:05):
Here is Arthur T.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
Still at the helm, Yes he is.
Speaker 4 (19:10):
And you know the financial deal that he put together
is also worth coming on because my big fear in
this is, yeah, they might sell it to Arthur T,
but he's got to come up with the finance. He he
doesn't have the dollars in his piggy bank, so he's
(19:30):
got to find he's going to have to go into debt.
And my biggest fear is he'd go with some forgive
me for this word, schlock private equity firm that would
be would put all kinds of constraints on him, start
to put pressure on him to pay that money back
quickly and force them to find ways to cut cut costs.
(19:52):
And and there is there was a private equity component
to it. But the brilliance of that deal was the
it was a consortium of banks that did two things. One,
they understood the business model and why market Basket had
been successful. And that it would take a while to
get back. And two, they understood that Arthur t was
(20:16):
the key to the business model, and they let him
run it rather than put him on a short lease
and require very short term returns. He's still not completely
out of debt, but he's ahead of his payment schedule.
He's close to completing that. And it gave him the
(20:38):
time and the control to go back to his same
management style and rebuild trust with his employees and his
customers and keep all the other systems in place. That
was remarkable. And I worried that the deal itself might
(20:59):
be structured a way that would make it hard for
him to do that. Turns out that he was able
to continue the business model and his leadership style in
the same way. And that's that's remarkable.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Mind setting is there's been in a paydown the day
I think the Globe story said, has been substantially paid down, and.
Speaker 4 (21:17):
The yeah, it's it's close and and so uh the
business has come back. Uh and you still see you know,
lots of traffic in the stores. You see low prices
for sure, you see the quality of service. They're not
(21:38):
short staff. There's staff there, and staff of all ages
and nice diverse men and women, people of color, as
as well as people who have been there for a
long time, and then some some teenagers.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
Yeah, I mean he is, He's done it all and
it's great that someone like yourself recognizes it and maybe
that model can be followed by some other stores. You know,
just real quickly, what drives me crazy about grocery stores now? Now,
in order to get the break, not market basket. Market
Basket you go in and you know you're always going
(22:16):
to get a low price. But there is other stores,
and one in particular is Shaws, which is owned by Albertson.
They're big on digital coupons, so you have to find
the newspaper then download the coupons, not paper coupons. Downlim
digitally to a very confusing website, and half the time
(22:37):
they work, half the time they don't. But it is
so it is one of the most frustrating stores with
which I've ever dealt with in my life. I don't
know if you've done a study on that, but you
may want to look at this as the antithesis to
the success.
Speaker 3 (22:54):
Story of market Basket.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
Albertson is going to get bought Shaws, and I think
then in my.
Speaker 4 (23:01):
Opinion, see that that that's an example of not valuing
your customers. Just think of the let's say elderly uh, grandmother,
widow or man for that's matter, who doesn't have those
(23:28):
digital skills. They're left out of that process or they're
confused by it. If if if they need help while
they're in the store to try to figure out where
the best price for a particular brand of peanut butter
or wherever it is, the store personnel will help them
(23:50):
find that and they don't have to go to their
their phone because they're not prepared to do that.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
And so actually got.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
To know your in this case, if it's not on
your phone, you won't get the break that's the point.
And so unless you're able to download it to the phone,
which takes some time, and most people are just you're
flum mixed by that. I'm pretty good digitally, but I
finally give up and I just said to myself, you
know what, I'll go to another store and buy what
I want. They're driving customers away, mark my words. You
(24:22):
see problems for Shaws, and you'll see problems for Albertson's,
I promise you.
Speaker 4 (24:27):
Yeah, Kroger are about to try to merge. So then
we've got a.
Speaker 3 (24:35):
Bigger problem we'll all have. There'd be one grocery store
in America. That is.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
That's the downfall of capitalism as far as as far
as I'm concerned, and I'm a big proponent of capitalism,
but not capitalism that is abusive to its customers. Professor,
thank you so much. Professor Thomas Coachin from the Sloan
School at MIT, the Sloane School of Business Management. I
really appreciate you taking the time tonight. I know that
(24:59):
you're moving.
Speaker 4 (25:00):
Thank you, Dan. I really enjoyed it, and let's hope
we can have more market basket like companies grow and
thrive in the United States.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
I drive sometimes when i'm back home, fifteen miles just
to go there and experience the atmosphere. I know I'll
save a few bucks, but it's much more open, much
better lit the aisles or wider all. It's just a
much more positive experience. Thanks again, Professor. I look forward
to talking to you again. Thank you so much.
Speaker 4 (25:27):
Good Thanks Dan, taking welcome all right.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Now we've heard from Professor CoCom Now I want to
hear from you. I want to hear your market Basket stories.
Do you remember the summer of twenty fourteen. We're going
to talk about this for a little while. This was
an amazing time. I remember being on here talking about it,
not really understanding the implications of it at the time,
(25:51):
but now in retrospect, I do. I think the professor
gave us a very good summary of it. Are you
a market Basket market Basket customer? I suspect most of
you are. Why what has continued to draw you to
that store in you know, for so many years in
place of other stores? I mean, there are other stores around,
(26:13):
but market Basket seems to be number one with my audience.
I'd love to hear from you. Six one seven two
thirty six one seven, nine thirty. It's a Nightside with
Dan Ray. Let's talk a little bit about your grocery bills.
I know grocery bills have gone up, but you can
cut them down at market Basket, I think, pretty effectively,
with not a lot of aggravation in hassle.
Speaker 3 (26:33):
Back on Nightside right after.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
This, It's Night Side with Dan Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
So we're talking about market Basket. We spoke with the
professor business professor from the Sloan School of Business Management
at MIT, Professor Thomas Coxon cocin Uh and uh, I
want to hear your experiences. We're going to just start
it off and see what people have to say. You're
going to go first. Steve is in Groton, Massachusetts. Steve,
(27:03):
do you have a market Basket up in your direction?
I suspect you probably go ahead.
Speaker 6 (27:08):
Steve, Yeah, fifteen minutes away in Littleton, mass Not bad,
not bad.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
Well, tell us are you a fan of market basket?
You remember ten years ago? Tell us what your you remember?
Your recollections are.
Speaker 6 (27:22):
I remember when they had the four percent sail when
you talked about it. I didn't know. I didn't remember
why they had that, But now it comes back to
me where they had this thing shut down for a while,
and I remember it was great because you go in
there and you get the prices were great to begin with,
and then they take another four percent off. It was fantastic. Yeah,
and I continue to go. At the time, there wasn't
(27:44):
this store in little Bit. It's one of the newer ones.
They opened that one up in Lilton. It's beautiful, it's big,
it's got you know, the huge selection, the prices are
great and like the gentlemen you had there. They you
could tell the employees are well taken care of. The
respect is they've worked there for eons when you can
see them a little badge of how many years they've
(28:06):
been there. You see the same faces all the time,
and they take care of the customers. You ask them
where something is, they will walk you there. You have
a problem with a product, they will give you the refund,
no question to ask. There's just never any problems there.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
It's the way it should be, you know. And why
other supermarkets have not followed that same model because you
can't copyright or patent the way here you treat customers.
You would think that the executives of some of these
other supermarkets would go to market Basket and just observe,
(28:46):
just observe, and take some of the practices back to
their stores and make them much more consumer Freederve do
you go exclusively to market Basket or U cason go
to other grocery stores.
Speaker 7 (28:59):
I do.
Speaker 6 (29:00):
There's a Shaws it's a little bit closer, and I
go there very rarely to because we have a couple
of items that I cannot get a market Basket. But
I will say that during the height of COVID, I
didn't want to be in market Basket because there were
too many people there. I would go to Shaws deliberately
(29:20):
because there was hardly anybody's shopping in there, and it
was safer because of that.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
That that comes back to the old Yogi Barra quote
when he's saying, nobody goes to that restaurant because it's
too crowded, right, or.
Speaker 6 (29:34):
What I would want to I wanted to want to
belong to a club that would have me as a member.
Speaker 3 (29:40):
I think that was March.
Speaker 5 (29:41):
I think something like that.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
It's like they asked Bara, what do you do when
you come to the fork, to a fork in the road.
Speaker 3 (29:47):
He said, take it.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
Hey, I appreciate you.
Speaker 6 (29:52):
I just want at the top of you started with
the other gentleman's like, are there any other companies besides
market Basket, not not to the supermarkets? If I don't,
you're right, But who else takes that kind of care
with their employees and the public. They care a little
bit less about the bottom line and a little bit
more about their you know, their legacy. And I can't
(30:16):
think of really many companies at all like that.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
Well, I can't either, But I do think that a supermarket,
grocery chain or whatever you want to call it. You
go in there and most people are buying twenty twenty
five items. Some of them are expensive, some of the
are inexpensive. But when you go there and you have
a list, like I tend to do, you want to
make sure that everything on the list you pick up
and in market basket, if you ask someone where it is,
(30:41):
they will tell you. At other stores, if you ask,
sometimes they look at you like, why are you asking
me that question. It's like I can remember be in
home Depot several times, several times. I'm not a fan
of Home Depot at all, and you see someone with
the orange apron and you say, excuse me, can you
tell me where whatever? And they look at you with
this quiz quizzical look in their face, like why would
(31:04):
you ask me to ask? And my response, no, no, no,
this is home Depot.
Speaker 6 (31:11):
And what I'll say, they will take you right, They
will stop what they're doing. That's what they do, stop
and talk like you. The customer is the priority. And
that's just not the wers. I mean, that has to management.
That is their style, that's what they want their employees to.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
Be But as they say, at some of these stores,
and I mentioned the big orange box store, they'll look
at you like, why are you asking me where something
is in this store? I have no idea, and I
simply say to the to the employee, gee, I'm sorry.
I thought on my mistake. I thought you you worked here,
and I'll just walk away.
Speaker 6 (31:45):
Right. Well, some of them could be new, but they
don't train.
Speaker 7 (31:50):
Well that's not well.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
They certainly should have some idea of where things are
before they finally put them on the floor.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
Steve loved the call. Thank you much. We'll talk soon.
Speaker 6 (32:01):
Thank you, thank you, thank.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
You very much. Okay, we're going to take a break.
We got room.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
We get Galen, Lancaster, Dave and Barrington, New Hampshire, and
Marie and Plymouth. You guys are going to get in,
no questions asked. If there are other phone calls, we'll
try to get them in and if not, we'll hold
them over to ten six month sep after the ten
six one, seven, two five, four, ten thirty six one
seven nine three one ten thirty. I love this story
because this, in my opinion, market basket is head and shoulders. Now,
(32:30):
I know some of the employees at Shaws uh and
at Shaws near where I live, and they are great people.
They're great people. But the problem with in my opinion,
with Shaws and Star Market is they force you to
use their app, which is confusing on a on a
good day, and it's overwhelming. And I know how to
(32:51):
use apps, but it doesn't work for me, and I
kind of imagine it works for too many people.
Speaker 3 (32:56):
Back on Night's Side right after.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
This, back to Dan Ray live from the Window World
night Side Studios on WBZ News Radio.
Speaker 3 (33:07):
Off. Kay, let's get we got full lines. I like that.
Let's go to Maria in Plymouth.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
Maria, welcome back your experience with market Basket.
Speaker 3 (33:15):
Over the years.
Speaker 8 (33:17):
Yes, Dan, I had a niece and a nephew who
both worked from market Basket while they were in high school.
And they both they both had to be trained there
and it was like their first job. So they were
taught like, you know, they had to dress up, you know,
wear shirt tie when you came to work, and they
were supposed to you know, greet the customers, and uh yeah,
(33:40):
they they were. They were trained how to interact with people,
not just you know, look out your phone or days
off into space or whatever, and they and it really worked.
And then they were also trained, you know, to to
help them to be helpful.
Speaker 3 (33:58):
You know.
Speaker 8 (33:58):
Now you go to others and people just look at
you like, oh, really, you're bothering me?
Speaker 3 (34:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
Yeah, it's like here, I'm just putting my time in.
I punched the clock. I can't wait till my shift
is over.
Speaker 9 (34:10):
And that's yeah.
Speaker 8 (34:11):
And market Baskets showed appreciation even to these young teenagers.
They were very surprised when at Christmas time they got
like bonus at Christmas bonus, which for part time high
schoolers was kind of just amazing. I mean, they were
so excited about it.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
Yeah, it's it's the old it's better to give an
employee a pat in the back than a kick in
the butt.
Speaker 3 (34:34):
Sometimes they might need a kick.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
In the butt, but but also mix that in with
some pats in the back and say, hey, you know
that way they learn, Oh gee, you like it's you know,
they say, you you, you come in your house and
your dog comes up to your wagon, your tail. If
you ignore the dog, the dog is going to say,
why am I so excited about this guy coming home?
(34:55):
But if you give him a pet and you roll
on the floor with a little with that that dog
for five minutes. The next time you come in, they'll
be just as excited.
Speaker 3 (35:03):
To see you.
Speaker 8 (35:05):
Very true, and you're spot on about Shaws shows is
the most annoying. And they were supposed to have updated
their brand new app, was supposed to be easier to use.
Speaker 5 (35:14):
It's worse.
Speaker 3 (35:15):
It's absolutely worse.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
It's actually, as a matter of fact, every time, look,
I'm I'm unfortunately very far from a market basket where
I am this summer, but I can't wait to get
back a little closer to a to a market basket there.
And again I'm I'm not being paid to advertise market basket.
I'm just telling you what my real reality, real experience
has been. And there's a store I like, Roach Brothers.
(35:40):
I have a Roach Brothers in West Roxby, near where
I live in. There's good quality, but Roach Brothers is
a little pricier than market Basket. You can find some
sales in Roach Brothers and People and Rich Brothers are
pretty nice too, But for me, the bottom of the
list is still Shaws and Stars.
Speaker 7 (35:54):
Well, I do all these too, but Shaws. I only
go there when i'm I'm desperate, or or when I'm
in a hurry because you can get in and now
there aren't as many people there.
Speaker 3 (36:05):
I hear you. Thanks Marie, we'll talk so appreciate you call. Great.
Speaker 5 (36:09):
Thank you, all right, you too.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
Let me go to Gail in Lancaster. I might have
just indevertently clicked off.
Speaker 3 (36:18):
Sandy. Uh, Sandy.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
If you got click clicked off, call back and we
will push you right at the top of the queue. Oh, Rob,
tell me I hit the wrong one. This is Gail
in Lancaster. Hi, Gail, how are you? Hi?
Speaker 9 (36:32):
Hi?
Speaker 2 (36:32):
Dan.
Speaker 9 (36:34):
The first time I ever called your show was about
the market basket crisis, and I was very worried about it.
That was, you know, when it was going on, and
I was worried that we would lose twenty five thousand
jobs in New England, and you know, there was some
(36:57):
real concern that this would be the undoing of the
company and so forth. And I was thinking, I was
actually writing an article and I was going to try
to get it published in the Globe. I don't have
a specialty in label law or anything like that, but
I just I was moved.
Speaker 5 (37:14):
To do it.
Speaker 9 (37:15):
And then I said, you know why, don't I just
call that guy Dan Ray's show and I just say
what I have to say on his show, and it
might be more effective. And so you know, I got
cracked up and I said what I had to say.
Now it's interesting, I do think. I mean, it's a
wonderful business model. And the man appears to have a
(37:37):
vision where he's not. He keeps his bottom line sufficient,
but has an eye flo really general good. And then
and he's a real leader. I mean he has the
to forgive me Tip O'Neil like qualities. I mean, I
have stories from people.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
I was talking tonight, by the way, just Tip O'Neil.
I was talking his son to me on the other
former lieutenant governor. He and I were at a fundraiser locally.
Speaker 4 (38:04):
He's a great guy.
Speaker 9 (38:05):
I mean, I know Temmy and I've met him, a
wonderful person.
Speaker 4 (38:08):
Like.
Speaker 2 (38:10):
We're as always very very helpful and friendly as tip boys.
Speaker 6 (38:17):
And oh yeah, wonderful.
Speaker 9 (38:18):
I mean the unique individuals and I think that excuse me,
that Artie t and possesses those qualities a real leadership.
I mean, I know one guy who works at a
very nice restaurant in Harvard Square who's like a matre
d and he told me that already tea the moves.
He said, Arty T personally trained me to stack potatoes.
(38:42):
You know people have stories like that.
Speaker 3 (38:46):
That's great.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
I've never met, to the best of my knowledge, Artt,
never had him on the show, but I just from
Afar and as a simply as a as a grocery
store customer, I feel I've benef benefited from being a
customer whenever I have the opportunity at market Basket.
Speaker 4 (39:03):
So well, I think he might make a great guest. Yeah,
maybe I don't know the GUI.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
But yeah, he doesn't seem to be somebody who's a
media hound or anything like that.
Speaker 3 (39:14):
So wow, you got to make your calls.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
I know that you've called more than than just twice,
but call more frequently.
Speaker 3 (39:20):
I really enjoyed your conversation.
Speaker 9 (39:22):
Oh thanks very much, mana, thank you, thanks so much.
Speaker 2 (39:25):
Okay, we're gonna stick with this into the next hour
a little bit. I'm gonna get to Beverly and Dave
and Sandy and conquered. I inadvertently clicked you off. If
you're still listening, call back and we'll we'll get you
to the head of the queue.
Speaker 3 (39:38):
Here comes the news.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
I've got open line one line at six one seven, two,
five four ten thirty one line and at six one
seven two lines at six one seven, nine three, one,
ten thirty. The question is, are you a market Basket fan?
And if you want to tell me what store could
be better, could improve you know what I think.
Speaker 3 (39:56):
I'd let to know what you think back on nightside
It's nice side with WBS video all right.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
I think all of us of a certain vintage will
well remember the big battle over market Basket. The future
of market Basket, I think the best grocery chain in
New England. That's a point of view.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
I think that we have.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
We're blessed with some really good grocery change. I think
Roach Brothers great local chain. I'm not as enamored with
the chains from that are owned by big corporate interests
from around the country, and I think most of you
know that, But for me, it's Market Basket and Roach Brothers.
(00:44):
In market Basket certainly, I think is the odds on
favorite of most of my listeners. But it was ten
years ago when the Market Basket broke out into a
civil war between a couple of cousins who were fighting
for support of Market Basket, and it was pretty dramatic.
I mean, it wasn't, as I said earlier, the Hatfields
versus the McCoy's. It was a demulus against the Demulis
(01:06):
and the membership, the employees, the customer base. They all
sided with the ultimate winner, Arthur Demulis.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
But it was a struggle.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
And we're delighted to be joined tonight by professor at
the MIT School Sloan of Management, which is one of
the great business schools in the country, Professor Thomas Cocon
And again, I'm trying as best I can to give
you but the proper pronunciation of that name. And if
I'm getting anywhere close, let me know. Okay, how are you, Professor?
Speaker 4 (01:47):
I'm good, Dan, And if my mother was still with us,
she'd be proud of you.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
You got it right, Thank you. You did. You did
a thesis on this.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
You authored a case study, if you will, not on
a thesis, but your co author a case study about
the protests. Were you in the area at the time.
Did you watch it unfold or is there something that
you came to after the event this pitched battle in
the summer of twenty fourteen.
Speaker 4 (02:18):
Oh, we were in the area. And in fact, if
you ask my wife about it, what did we do
in the summer of twenty fourteen, she'll just roll her
eyes and say market basket. It wasn't her favorite experience,
but it took up very much of our summer, and
(02:39):
rightfully so, because there was such a unique, unprecedented event
and development, and so interesting from the standpoint of someone
like me who studied labor management relations since the nineteen
seventies when I first started in this field, and this
was something I had never encountered. A group of managers, executives, clerks,
(03:06):
warehouse workers, truck drivers all walking out together in a
non union setting. Uh. I had to think a lot
about how to how to interpret this at the beginning
and whether this, uh, whether this could.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Last now it unfolded before your eyes. The business school, generally,
I don't I don't think you have classes during the summer.
I think it's a fall, winter, spring, and normally you
get a chance to relax during the summer. When did
you when did this first? Were you aware of this
(03:42):
and attentive to it as it was bubbling up? And
the fight, the the proxy fight that was going on
in June which led to the to the to the nastiness.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
Of late June and July.
Speaker 4 (03:58):
Well, actually I didn't know anything about it until I
got a call from an NPR reporter asking me what
do I think about this? And I said about what,
we have a nice little place up here in New
Hampshire on a nice little lake, and I was, you know,
minding my own business here and not paying attention to
(04:19):
too many events. But this would have been about three
days into it, and this reporter said, well, you better,
you better check this out because I think you'll find
it interesting. And then I want to call you back,
and so I did. And so I was about three
days into it when I first encountered it, and once
I started to learn about what was happening and why
(04:43):
it was unfolding, I just got absorbed by it. And
then you know, once, as Dan as you know, once
you speak to a media professional in one setting, whether
it's radio or uh the print or TV, it it
(05:04):
sort of multiplies and you you get more calls. And
so that's where it starts. And were deeper into.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
It, I could say that you were sort of like
those green flies professor from Sloan from Sloan talk to us, all,
so let's.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
Get up there.
Speaker 4 (05:28):
Yeah, now it it had so I got a lot
of media calls. But then as it unfolded, Uh, you know,
I do mediation of labor management disputes, and I have
a lot of experience with that, and I kept thinking,
you a rule number one of a mediator is you
don't intervene. You get asked by the parties to help them,
(05:53):
so you don't butt in. And I was determined not
to butt into anybody's business if I wasn't asked. But
then I started to get discreet calls from some of
the parties and from from others who asked, you know,
what I thought, and how could we get get this resolved?
(06:16):
And so then I started to do a little bit
more work behind the scenes to try to understand it
in more depth and to see how to interpret it.
And then I wrote various pieces, one for the Boston Globe,
actually two, I think it was for the Globe, and
(06:37):
for Cognizanti the National Public Radio, you know, w b
u R print outlet and and other things.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
And so they steal all they steal all those fancy
Latin words like cogniscanti.
Speaker 4 (06:54):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll give you a quarter if
you can, right.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
I think I could Latin school. I taught me how
to spell Latin words. But that's okay.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
Well, so you never.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Entered as an arbitration or as a mediat or anything
like that, but you began to do your homework and
you eventually ended up co authoring a book about this.
Speaker 4 (07:20):
It's a case study. Yeah, and at one point I
did write a piece for the Globe editorial page. This
was about maybe three weeks into it, outlining what I
felt needed to happen to get this resolve successfully. And
(07:42):
you could see the the you know, the contours of
what had to happen. The customers weren't going to come
back unless the employees were going to come back. The
employees weren't going to come back unless Arthur T came back.
Arthur T wasn't going to get back unless there was
(08:02):
some kind of a deal for him to have equity
and take over the business. And that could have been
done in a variety of different ways. So it was
it was fairly straightforward to lay that out and and
that's eventually essentially what happened is obviously is you know,
eventually the board relented and sold the business to Arthur T.
(08:28):
But it took a while for that process to play
itself out. And meanwhile, what was so remarkable was that
these employees held together for six weeks. And they held
together largely because they all knew each other. But in addition,
(08:52):
the most important development of this case was it was
the customers. The customers were the source of power that
kept the employees out there and support it at least psychologically.
And finally it was the customers who brought the board
(09:12):
to realize it's the only way we're going to resolve
this is to put Arthur T back in charge in
some fashion.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
What that's such a quick and brilliant analysis of how
it actually came to be resolved. I got to take
a break. I want to talk now about how this
company has come back as a result of that six
week into a little There was a lot of debt
that piled up, and we to talk about that. Were
(09:43):
the company is today as where it was ten years ago?
And maybe we'll take some phone calls if you're going
to stay with us until nine thirty. If a couple
of folks would like to talk to a business Sloan
Business School professor at MIT.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
They don't get any smarter than than these folks.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Six one seven, four ten thirty, six one seven, nine thirty.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
My name is Dan Ray.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
After nine thirty, we'll talk about market Basket and we'll
talk about your experience and were you one of those
customers who stayed away? Were you one of those employees?
But right now you can talk with Professor Thomas Cocan
of MIT's Sloan Business School, which is one of the
greatest business schools in the world, as well of course.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
As the country. Back on Night's Side right after these messages.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
Now back to Dan Ray live from the Window World
Night Side Studios on WBZ News Radio.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
We're talking with Sloan Business School professor and MIT professor
Thomas Colcan, and you had this was confusing because it
was an interfamilial feud between two cousins. Arthur T was
the the Demula's cousin that had all the support. Was
that Arthur s was the other side of the aisle,
(10:59):
as it were in this case.
Speaker 4 (11:02):
Yes, that's right, that's right.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
So what had Arthur T done to have won that
such support not only of his workers, his non union workers,
but also of his customers.
Speaker 4 (11:17):
Well, this is another really important to mention to the
story and to the lessons to learn from it, and
that is that Arthur T, over the course of many years,
had demonstrated his commitment to really being responsive to his
employees and his customers, concerned about them on a personal level,
(11:38):
certainly on a professional level, to retain employees. As you know,
when you shop at market Basket, it will each employee
will have a little uh signet, little piece of his
or her uniform that says, I'm Sue, I've been here
twenty seven years or ten years or six months for
(11:59):
that month. And you know, he valued employees and he
knew that employees were key to providing high quality service
to customers, and he held them accountable for doing that.
But he supported them in times of crisis. The stories
that I heard from various people who contacted me during
(12:20):
that period of time about, you know, the things he
did to support people when they lost the loved one
or in a car accident, needed a child, needed a
special care, and he called the parents and said do
we need to move this child to Boston to one
of the hospitals. He didn't say do you need to move?
(12:42):
He said do we need to do it? And that's
just one example of his leadership. And so he ran
the company and was actively involved and worked his way
up over the years from all the different jobs in
the store to the CEO's role. Arthur s really was
(13:05):
interested only for financial reasons. As the story goes, he
worked a little bit there when he was a teenager,
wasn't particularly committed and and really was only interested in
the returns that the business was provided. So that's that's
the basis, UH for the difference.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
My producer, excuse my producer told me that during this, uh,
this six week period, and I'm relying upon my producer
has a pretty good memory. He said that that that
that Arthur s or that the people who at that
point were holding full they still ran the company. And
Arthur T was on the outside that they ran a
(13:49):
four percent off your bill sale your entire bill as
as an incentive, an inducement to have customers come back.
And and even that offer, uh was not enough to
lure customers back into the store. I'm again, I hope
my producers correct on this, but is that true?
Speaker 4 (14:08):
Yeah? That was one that was one of the things
they did. They hired also two new executives to run
the company, experienced in the in the retail sector, not
incompetent people, but they couldn't build the support needed to
get the employees back. And you can offer four percent
(14:32):
off the bill, but if you don't have anything in
the store to sell, that doesn't do any good. And
it was the coalition between the customers and the employees
that allowed them to be out there for that long
and to be successful in the end, and there was
no financial incentive to bring customers back that was going
(14:55):
to work. Those customers said, you know that's my store.
I know those employees. I see them when I go there.
They greet me, and you know, we ask about each
other's family. You can't you can't incentivize your way out
of that that kind of relationship.
Speaker 3 (15:13):
This, I bet you you probably have taught a course
on this in MT.
Speaker 4 (15:18):
I suspect yes. In fact, we did a symposium one
evening with a group of people and I brought in
four or five of my colleagues from other parts of
the Sloan School and the Kennedy School who specialized in
different things from corporate governance to finance, to marketing and
(15:43):
so on, for them to be on panels and to
ask them what they thought of this. And it was
really interesting because they obviously weren't as familiar, but they
got it and they understood once they read a little
bit about did their preparation for that evening, why this
(16:04):
uh one was very unique and too, why it could
be successful and and Dan, you know what this this
really signified to me and to them, this is the
kind of company that the American public is so thirsty
for a good company, a company that's good to your customers,
that gives fair prices, low prices, high quality, and good
(16:27):
to its employees. And we just don't see enough of
that across the country. And when we see it, or
when the public sees it, they say, boy, that sounds
right to me, and I ought to support that. So
we need we need to learn from that.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
Why are companies, other companies not learning from that?
Speaker 4 (16:47):
Because they're they're financial institutions and they're they're they're they're
in the maximize shareholder returns, sometimes short term, sometimes long term,
but they're not There's not enough companies that see themselves
as getting a good return by being a very very
(17:08):
good high what we call high road employer. And we
need more of those. We still need them today. I
still teach when I when I write things I draw
on market basket. I was asked to write something just
this week about it, and so it resonates with the
(17:30):
public and when you see it, you know that you
should support it.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Sadly, Oftentimes, in my experience, the best companies of the
companies that go out of business, and a lot of
the bad companies.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
Hang on, let me.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
Grab a quick phone call for you here, so we'll
get one question from our from our another studio audience,
from our audience at large. I'm going to go to Gary,
who checks in from Wuburn. Gary, you're on with Professor
Thomas Kocher.
Speaker 5 (17:59):
Go right ahead, Gary, Yes, Professor, I'm sixty one years
of age. I've said this separate story before. I don't
necessarily have a question.
Speaker 4 (18:07):
But you probably know about it.
Speaker 5 (18:08):
One of the greatest things that Macabasket ever did. This
is going to sound very unusual, Dan, and it's the truth.
They did one month where all the bread was half
price for the whole month of December during the holidays.
Give it take eight years ago, give it take fifteen
years ago. And I jumped all over it because I'm
(18:29):
a single guy. I have all kinds of friends, and
I distributed to all kinds of families. And I'm sure
you know about it. And I was spending one hundred
dollars a week, four dollars for then cut down the
two and I'm very proud of it. I just wanted
to share that story with you guys.
Speaker 4 (18:44):
Continue on, Thank you, Okay.
Speaker 3 (18:49):
I was going to tell you that they did that.
Did they do that? Professor?
Speaker 4 (18:52):
If you know, not news to me, but I wouldn't
be surprised, gotcha?
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Okay, okay, Well again, this is the company that is successful,
as I understand that and helped me out if I'm wrong.
Speaker 3 (19:05):
Here is Arthur T.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
Still at the helm, Yes he is.
Speaker 4 (19:10):
And you know the financial deal that he put together
is also worth coming on because my big fear in
this is, yeah, they might sell it to Arthur T,
but he's got to come up with the finance. He he
doesn't have the dollars in his piggy bank, so he's
(19:30):
got to find he's going to have to go into debt.
And my biggest fear is he'd go with some forgive
me for this word, schlock private equity firm that would
be would put all kinds of constraints on him, start
to put pressure on him to pay that money back
quickly and force them to find ways to cut cut costs.
(19:52):
And and there is there was a private equity component
to it. But the brilliance of that deal was the
it was a consortium of banks that did two things. One,
they understood the business model and why market Basket had
been successful. And that it would take a while to
get back. And two, they understood that Arthur t was
(20:16):
the key to the business model, and they let him
run it rather than put him on a short lease
and require very short term returns. He's still not completely
out of debt, but he's ahead of his payment schedule.
He's close to completing that. And it gave him the
(20:38):
time and the control to go back to his same
management style and rebuild trust with his employees and his
customers and keep all the other systems in place. That
was remarkable. And I worried that the deal itself might
(20:59):
be structured a way that would make it hard for
him to do that. Turns out that he was able
to continue the business model and his leadership style in
the same way. And that's that's remarkable.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Mind setting is there's been in a paydown the day
I think the Globe story said, has been substantially paid down, and.
Speaker 4 (21:17):
The yeah, it's it's close and and so uh the
business has come back. Uh and you still see you know,
lots of traffic in the stores. You see low prices
for sure, you see the quality of service. They're not
(21:38):
short staff. There's staff there, and staff of all ages
and nice diverse men and women, people of color, as
as well as people who have been there for a
long time, and then some some teenagers.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
Yeah, I mean he is, He's done it all and
it's great that someone like yourself recognizes it and maybe
that model can be followed by some other stores. You know,
just real quickly, what drives me crazy about grocery stores now? Now,
in order to get the break, not market basket. Market
Basket you go in and you know you're always going
(22:16):
to get a low price. But there is other stores,
and one in particular is Shaws, which is owned by Albertson.
They're big on digital coupons, so you have to find
the newspaper then download the coupons, not paper coupons. Downlim
digitally to a very confusing website, and half the time
(22:37):
they work, half the time they don't. But it is
so it is one of the most frustrating stores with
which I've ever dealt with in my life. I don't
know if you've done a study on that, but you
may want to look at this as the antithesis to
the success.
Speaker 3 (22:54):
Story of market Basket.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
Albertson is going to get bought Shaws, and I think
then in my.
Speaker 4 (23:01):
Opinion, see that that that's an example of not valuing
your customers. Just think of the let's say elderly uh, grandmother,
widow or man for that's matter, who doesn't have those
(23:28):
digital skills. They're left out of that process or they're
confused by it. If if if they need help while
they're in the store to try to figure out where
the best price for a particular brand of peanut butter
or wherever it is, the store personnel will help them
(23:50):
find that and they don't have to go to their
their phone because they're not prepared to do that.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
And so actually got.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
To know your in this case, if it's not on
your phone, you won't get the break that's the point.
And so unless you're able to download it to the phone,
which takes some time, and most people are just you're
flum mixed by that. I'm pretty good digitally, but I
finally give up and I just said to myself, you
know what, I'll go to another store and buy what
I want. They're driving customers away, mark my words. You
(24:22):
see problems for Shaws, and you'll see problems for Albertson's,
I promise you.
Speaker 4 (24:27):
Yeah, Kroger are about to try to merge. So then
we've got a.
Speaker 3 (24:35):
Bigger problem we'll all have. There'd be one grocery store
in America. That is.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
That's the downfall of capitalism as far as as far
as I'm concerned, and I'm a big proponent of capitalism,
but not capitalism that is abusive to its customers. Professor,
thank you so much. Professor Thomas Coachin from the Sloan
School at MIT, the Sloane School of Business Management. I
really appreciate you taking the time tonight. I know that
(24:59):
you're moving.
Speaker 4 (25:00):
Thank you, Dan. I really enjoyed it, and let's hope
we can have more market basket like companies grow and
thrive in the United States.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
I drive sometimes when i'm back home, fifteen miles just
to go there and experience the atmosphere. I know I'll
save a few bucks, but it's much more open, much
better lit the aisles or wider all. It's just a
much more positive experience. Thanks again, Professor. I look forward
to talking to you again. Thank you so much.
Speaker 4 (25:27):
Good Thanks Dan, taking welcome all right.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Now we've heard from Professor CoCom Now I want to
hear from you. I want to hear your market Basket stories.
Do you remember the summer of twenty fourteen. We're going
to talk about this for a little while. This was
an amazing time. I remember being on here talking about it,
not really understanding the implications of it at the time,
(25:51):
but now in retrospect, I do. I think the professor
gave us a very good summary of it. Are you
a market Basket market Basket customer? I suspect most of
you are. Why what has continued to draw you to
that store in you know, for so many years in
place of other stores? I mean, there are other stores around,
(26:13):
but market Basket seems to be number one with my audience.
I'd love to hear from you. Six one seven two
thirty six one seven, nine thirty. It's a Nightside with
Dan Ray. Let's talk a little bit about your grocery bills.
I know grocery bills have gone up, but you can
cut them down at market Basket, I think, pretty effectively,
with not a lot of aggravation in hassle.
Speaker 3 (26:33):
Back on Nightside right after.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
This, It's Night Side with Dan Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
So we're talking about market Basket. We spoke with the
professor business professor from the Sloan School of Business Management
at MIT, Professor Thomas Coxon cocin Uh and uh, I
want to hear your experiences. We're going to just start
it off and see what people have to say. You're
going to go first. Steve is in Groton, Massachusetts. Steve,
(27:03):
do you have a market Basket up in your direction?
I suspect you probably go ahead.
Speaker 6 (27:08):
Steve, Yeah, fifteen minutes away in Littleton, mass Not bad,
not bad.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
Well, tell us are you a fan of market basket?
You remember ten years ago? Tell us what your you remember?
Your recollections are.
Speaker 6 (27:22):
I remember when they had the four percent sail when
you talked about it. I didn't know. I didn't remember
why they had that, But now it comes back to
me where they had this thing shut down for a while,
and I remember it was great because you go in
there and you get the prices were great to begin with,
and then they take another four percent off. It was fantastic. Yeah,
and I continue to go. At the time, there wasn't
(27:44):
this store in little Bit. It's one of the newer ones.
They opened that one up in Lilton. It's beautiful, it's big,
it's got you know, the huge selection, the prices are
great and like the gentlemen you had there. They you
could tell the employees are well taken care of. The
respect is they've worked there for eons when you can
see them a little badge of how many years they've
(28:06):
been there. You see the same faces all the time,
and they take care of the customers. You ask them
where something is, they will walk you there. You have
a problem with a product, they will give you the refund,
no question to ask. There's just never any problems there.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
It's the way it should be, you know. And why
other supermarkets have not followed that same model because you
can't copyright or patent the way here you treat customers.
You would think that the executives of some of these
other supermarkets would go to market Basket and just observe,
(28:46):
just observe, and take some of the practices back to
their stores and make them much more consumer Freederve do
you go exclusively to market Basket or U cason go
to other grocery stores.
Speaker 7 (28:59):
I do.
Speaker 6 (29:00):
There's a Shaws it's a little bit closer, and I
go there very rarely to because we have a couple
of items that I cannot get a market Basket. But
I will say that during the height of COVID, I
didn't want to be in market Basket because there were
too many people there. I would go to Shaws deliberately
(29:20):
because there was hardly anybody's shopping in there, and it
was safer because of that.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
That that comes back to the old Yogi Barra quote
when he's saying, nobody goes to that restaurant because it's
too crowded, right, or.
Speaker 6 (29:34):
What I would want to I wanted to want to
belong to a club that would have me as a member.
Speaker 3 (29:40):
I think that was March.
Speaker 5 (29:41):
I think something like that.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
It's like they asked Bara, what do you do when
you come to the fork, to a fork in the road.
Speaker 3 (29:47):
He said, take it.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
Hey, I appreciate you.
Speaker 6 (29:52):
I just want at the top of you started with
the other gentleman's like, are there any other companies besides
market Basket, not not to the supermarkets? If I don't,
you're right, But who else takes that kind of care
with their employees and the public. They care a little
bit less about the bottom line and a little bit
more about their you know, their legacy. And I can't
(30:16):
think of really many companies at all like that.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
Well, I can't either, But I do think that a supermarket,
grocery chain or whatever you want to call it. You
go in there and most people are buying twenty twenty
five items. Some of them are expensive, some of the
are inexpensive. But when you go there and you have
a list, like I tend to do, you want to
make sure that everything on the list you pick up
and in market basket, if you ask someone where it is,
(30:41):
they will tell you. At other stores, if you ask,
sometimes they look at you like, why are you asking
me that question. It's like I can remember be in
home Depot several times, several times. I'm not a fan
of Home Depot at all, and you see someone with
the orange apron and you say, excuse me, can you
tell me where whatever? And they look at you with
this quiz quizzical look in their face, like why would
(31:04):
you ask me to ask? And my response, no, no, no,
this is home Depot.
Speaker 6 (31:11):
And what I'll say, they will take you right, They
will stop what they're doing. That's what they do, stop
and talk like you. The customer is the priority. And
that's just not the wers. I mean, that has to management.
That is their style, that's what they want their employees to.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
Be But as they say, at some of these stores,
and I mentioned the big orange box store, they'll look
at you like, why are you asking me where something
is in this store? I have no idea, and I
simply say to the to the employee, gee, I'm sorry.
I thought on my mistake. I thought you you worked here,
and I'll just walk away.
Speaker 6 (31:45):
Right. Well, some of them could be new, but they
don't train.
Speaker 7 (31:50):
Well that's not well.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
They certainly should have some idea of where things are
before they finally put them on the floor.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
Steve loved the call. Thank you much. We'll talk soon.
Speaker 6 (32:01):
Thank you, thank you, thank.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
You very much. Okay, we're going to take a break.
We got room.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
We get Galen, Lancaster, Dave and Barrington, New Hampshire, and
Marie and Plymouth. You guys are going to get in,
no questions asked. If there are other phone calls, we'll
try to get them in and if not, we'll hold
them over to ten six month sep after the ten
six one, seven, two five, four, ten thirty six one
seven nine three one ten thirty. I love this story
because this, in my opinion, market basket is head and shoulders. Now,
(32:30):
I know some of the employees at Shaws uh and
at Shaws near where I live, and they are great people.
They're great people. But the problem with in my opinion,
with Shaws and Star Market is they force you to
use their app, which is confusing on a on a
good day, and it's overwhelming. And I know how to
(32:51):
use apps, but it doesn't work for me, and I
kind of imagine it works for too many people.
Speaker 3 (32:56):
Back on Night's Side right after.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
This, back to Dan Ray live from the Window World
night Side Studios on WBZ News Radio.
Speaker 3 (33:07):
Off. Kay, let's get we got full lines. I like that.
Let's go to Maria in Plymouth.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
Maria, welcome back your experience with market Basket.
Speaker 3 (33:15):
Over the years.
Speaker 8 (33:17):
Yes, Dan, I had a niece and a nephew who
both worked from market Basket while they were in high school.
And they both they both had to be trained there
and it was like their first job. So they were
taught like, you know, they had to dress up, you know,
wear shirt tie when you came to work, and they
were supposed to you know, greet the customers, and uh yeah,
(33:40):
they they were. They were trained how to interact with people,
not just you know, look out your phone or days
off into space or whatever, and they and it really worked.
And then they were also trained, you know, to to
help them to be helpful.
Speaker 3 (33:58):
You know.
Speaker 8 (33:58):
Now you go to others and people just look at
you like, oh, really, you're bothering me?
Speaker 3 (34:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
Yeah, it's like here, I'm just putting my time in.
I punched the clock. I can't wait till my shift
is over.
Speaker 9 (34:10):
And that's yeah.
Speaker 8 (34:11):
And market Baskets showed appreciation even to these young teenagers.
They were very surprised when at Christmas time they got
like bonus at Christmas bonus, which for part time high
schoolers was kind of just amazing. I mean, they were
so excited about it.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
Yeah, it's it's the old it's better to give an
employee a pat in the back than a kick in
the butt.
Speaker 3 (34:34):
Sometimes they might need a kick.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
In the butt, but but also mix that in with
some pats in the back and say, hey, you know
that way they learn, Oh gee, you like it's you know,
they say, you you, you come in your house and
your dog comes up to your wagon, your tail. If
you ignore the dog, the dog is going to say,
why am I so excited about this guy coming home?
(34:55):
But if you give him a pet and you roll
on the floor with a little with that that dog
for five minutes. The next time you come in, they'll
be just as excited.
Speaker 3 (35:03):
To see you.
Speaker 8 (35:05):
Very true, and you're spot on about Shaws shows is
the most annoying. And they were supposed to have updated
their brand new app, was supposed to be easier to use.
Speaker 5 (35:14):
It's worse.
Speaker 3 (35:15):
It's absolutely worse.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
It's actually, as a matter of fact, every time, look,
I'm I'm unfortunately very far from a market basket where
I am this summer, but I can't wait to get
back a little closer to a to a market basket there.
And again I'm I'm not being paid to advertise market basket.
I'm just telling you what my real reality, real experience
has been. And there's a store I like, Roach Brothers.
(35:40):
I have a Roach Brothers in West Roxby, near where
I live in. There's good quality, but Roach Brothers is
a little pricier than market Basket. You can find some
sales in Roach Brothers and People and Rich Brothers are
pretty nice too, But for me, the bottom of the
list is still Shaws and Stars.
Speaker 7 (35:54):
Well, I do all these too, but Shaws. I only
go there when i'm I'm desperate, or or when I'm
in a hurry because you can get in and now
there aren't as many people there.
Speaker 3 (36:05):
I hear you. Thanks Marie, we'll talk so appreciate you call. Great.
Speaker 5 (36:09):
Thank you, all right, you too.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
Let me go to Gail in Lancaster. I might have
just indevertently clicked off.
Speaker 3 (36:18):
Sandy. Uh, Sandy.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
If you got click clicked off, call back and we
will push you right at the top of the queue. Oh, Rob,
tell me I hit the wrong one. This is Gail
in Lancaster. Hi, Gail, how are you? Hi?
Speaker 9 (36:32):
Hi?
Speaker 2 (36:32):
Dan.
Speaker 9 (36:34):
The first time I ever called your show was about
the market basket crisis, and I was very worried about it.
That was, you know, when it was going on, and
I was worried that we would lose twenty five thousand
jobs in New England, and you know, there was some
(36:57):
real concern that this would be the undoing of the
company and so forth. And I was thinking, I was
actually writing an article and I was going to try
to get it published in the Globe. I don't have
a specialty in label law or anything like that, but
I just I was moved.
Speaker 5 (37:14):
To do it.
Speaker 9 (37:15):
And then I said, you know why, don't I just
call that guy Dan Ray's show and I just say
what I have to say on his show, and it
might be more effective. And so you know, I got
cracked up and I said what I had to say.
Now it's interesting, I do think. I mean, it's a
wonderful business model. And the man appears to have a
(37:37):
vision where he's not. He keeps his bottom line sufficient,
but has an eye flo really general good. And then
and he's a real leader. I mean he has the
to forgive me Tip O'Neil like qualities. I mean, I
have stories from people.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
I was talking tonight, by the way, just Tip O'Neil.
I was talking his son to me on the other
former lieutenant governor. He and I were at a fundraiser locally.
Speaker 4 (38:04):
He's a great guy.
Speaker 9 (38:05):
I mean, I know Temmy and I've met him, a
wonderful person.
Speaker 4 (38:08):
Like.
Speaker 2 (38:10):
We're as always very very helpful and friendly as tip boys.
Speaker 6 (38:17):
And oh yeah, wonderful.
Speaker 9 (38:18):
I mean the unique individuals and I think that excuse me,
that Artie t and possesses those qualities a real leadership.
I mean, I know one guy who works at a
very nice restaurant in Harvard Square who's like a matre
d and he told me that already tea the moves.
He said, Arty T personally trained me to stack potatoes.
(38:42):
You know people have stories like that.
Speaker 3 (38:46):
That's great.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
I've never met, to the best of my knowledge, Artt,
never had him on the show, but I just from
Afar and as a simply as a as a grocery
store customer, I feel I've benef benefited from being a
customer whenever I have the opportunity at market Basket.
Speaker 4 (39:03):
So well, I think he might make a great guest. Yeah,
maybe I don't know the GUI.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
But yeah, he doesn't seem to be somebody who's a
media hound or anything like that.
Speaker 3 (39:14):
So wow, you got to make your calls.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
I know that you've called more than than just twice,
but call more frequently.
Speaker 3 (39:20):
I really enjoyed your conversation.
Speaker 9 (39:22):
Oh thanks very much, mana, thank you, thanks so much.
Speaker 2 (39:25):
Okay, we're gonna stick with this into the next hour
a little bit. I'm gonna get to Beverly and Dave
and Sandy and conquered. I inadvertently clicked you off. If
you're still listening, call back and we'll we'll get you
to the head of the queue.
Speaker 3 (39:38):
Here comes the news.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
I've got open line one line at six one seven, two,
five four ten thirty one line and at six one
seven two lines at six one seven, nine three, one,
ten thirty. The question is, are you a market Basket fan?
And if you want to tell me what store could
be better, could improve you know what I think.
Speaker 3 (39:56):
I'd let to know what you think back on nightside
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