March 9, 2025 • 62 mins
In this engaging episode, we explore the transformative potential of artificial intelligence in the world of marketing. With John Munsell, a leading expert in implementing AI-first strategies, we dive deep into the essentials of integrating AI into business practices.
• Importance of adopting an AI-first mindset
• Strategies for implementing AI across different departments
• Understanding the gap between perceived and actual AI adoption
• Key roles in AI governance and operations
• Elevating productivity through AI integration
• The critical role of training in cultivating an AI culture
• Encouraging innovation and collaboration within organizations
• Examples of companies successfully leveraging AI
• How to articulate customer problems effectively
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Guest Contact Information:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jwmunsell/
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The Unknown Secrets of Internet Marketing podcast is a podcast hosted by Internet marketing expert Matthew Bertram. The show provides insights and advice on digital marketing, SEO, and online business.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
This is the Unknown Secrets of Internet Marketing,
your insider guide to thestrategies top marketers use to
crush the competition.
Ready to unlock your businessfull potential, let's get
started.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Howdy.
Welcome back to anotherfun-filled episode of the
Unknown Secrets of InternetMarketing.
I am your host, matt Bertram.
A couple of Internet Marketing.
I am your host, matt Bertram.
A couple of quick housekeeping.
We may be rebranding thepodcast again.
I brought on a new projectmanager and you know, based upon
what y'all have said, we aregoing to make some more changes,
(00:38):
so just be looking out for that.
Thank you for being patient.
As Chris left, we're kind ofmoving in a new direction and to
continue our series.
I know something that's veryhot for everyone is AI and
what's going to happen with that, and as we're doing this series
, I'm bringing in all kinds ofmovers and shakers and experts
(01:00):
in the industry.
I ran across John Munsell withInGrain AI, who is teaching
people how to be an AI culturefirst, or in your business and
your company, how to have an AIculture first.
I think it's really important,based on kind of a case-shaped
approach of either you're goingto adopt AI and you're going to
(01:24):
rise and you're going to takemore market share, and you're
going to adopt AI and you'regoing to rise and you're going
to take more market share andyou're going to grow, or you're
going to keep doing exactly whatyou're doing, and those other
people are going to pass you byand it's going to become
increasingly more difficult.
So I would encourage you all tolisten up to John.
Thank you so much for coming onthe podcast.
I think everybody will listenattentively to what you have to
(01:46):
say as they're trying to figureout what to do with this new
thing called AI.
That hasn't actually been new,but it's new to the public since
ChatGVT.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
Right, no good to be on.
I appreciate you having me on,Matt.
I spent 25 years in digitalmarketing, so I've been doing
this a while myself.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Yeah, it's constantly evolving.
It's a moving target.
Certainly, there's a lot goingon with large language models
and really all the searchengines are AI.
That's essentially what you'redoing is you're training the
model to understand who you areand what you do and what your
(02:29):
expertise, authority and trustis, to rank you higher, to be
the right answer for a number ofdifferent questions.
And I really call SEO thelanguage of AI in a lot of ways,
with schema and the things thatyou're doing, you're just
you're just trying to bettercommunicate with the large
language model and and itcreates a feedback loop.
(02:53):
And you know, what we're seeingwith a lot of businesses is
they're really starting to getserious and say, hey, we, we
need an AI program.
How are we gonna do this?
We don't want you using, maybe,public language models, we
don't want you to add to thedatabase proprietary data, and
(03:15):
so people are getting moresophisticated in what they're
doing.
I'm actually seeing a number ofcompanies start to roll out AI
initiatives and I think it'sreally gonna start to roll out
AI initiatives and I think it'sreally going to start to impact
the bottom line.
I think also, even with somepublicly traded companies as
they start to harness AI, you'regoing to see some real growth.
(03:37):
So Salesforce for example is oneexample that I'm following
pretty closely.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
Yeah Well, if you followed Salesforce then you may
or may not know that they justbought gosh Respell Respellai.
So big fan of Respell.
Respell does AI automations andAI agents and when they
acquired them I was like oh goodfor them, because we had the uh
(04:05):
, the founder of Respell, on ourour uh, we have a mastermind.
We had him speak to ourmastermind last year, so I was
happy for him.
But on the other end I was likeGod, I hope they didn't one of
those deals where they boughtthem to just trash them because
they were in their way, becauseit was a really good product.
But I got a good point.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
I think the agents is .
I mean, tell me a little bitabout what you're seeing.
I mean I am spending a bit ofmy free time playing around with
agents, because I think anybodythat's doing knowledge work or
computer work.
I mean there's even tools whereI can if there's anything
somewhat repetitive that I'mdoing, I can teach an agent how
(04:49):
to do what it is that I'm doingand then give it a little
autonomy and eventually thatcould be a little employee right
there, right.
And so what I see people doingand I haven't dug into it enough
, but they're building out fullteams right With different
(05:09):
specialties doing differentthings.
And I think the VA space, youknow, the customer service space
, like even with Salesforce, thesales space I mean I've seen
some sales agents that areblowing my mind on what they can
do and then you're able to linkall this stuff together.
(05:29):
And then even ChatGVT just cameout for 200 bucks a month with
their agent program and I'm justgoing, man, this is moving
really, really fast.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
Yeah, yeah, it's moving really fast, but I think
it's like anything else.
You got to crawl, walk, runright.
Running is the agent side, allright.
You got to figure out how towalk before you get to doing
agents, and then you got tofigure out how to crawl first.
So a lot of people are still.
They haven't even addressed thecrawl stage.
So what they do is what I wouldcall untethered AI.
(06:05):
So, in other words, they justask AI to write them a blog post
and they get something thatsounds like AI, and if you just
let that go into an agent now,you're going to have a crappy
sounding copy at scale you know,which is going to really screw
with your SEO as well.
(06:26):
So that's where you need toback down and figure out how do
you actually prompt the AI to?
How do you structure a promptso that the AI not only sounds
like you but actually sharesyour thought leadership inside
of whatever you produce and hasthe intellect to know how to
optimize that right?
Speaker 2 (06:48):
well, I think that's where you you're.
You're uploading uh data filesright?
Speaker 3 (06:54):
um, yes and no right.
So so if step one is justlearning how to get the ai, uh
prompting down so fair enough,okay.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
So if we're, if we're , if we're breaking it down,
it's about you know.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
So step one is that.
But in order to do that, youneed to know what goes into a
good prompt in order to get theoutput down.
And what we teach is aframework that we call the AI
strategy canvas, and it teachesyou and you can download it for
free on our website but itteaches you what blocks of
information are necessary inorder to get the best output out
(07:31):
of AI.
Once you understand that, thenyou move into the next stage,
which would be what I would callthe walk fast stage.
And the walk fast stage isbuilding like a custom GPT or a
Gemini Gem or a Claude project,because now you've got
(07:51):
repetitive stuff that you needto do, but in those GPTs you can
upload the documents that youneed so that the AI has stuff to
pull on, but you still need tohave the right framework for
what that prompt looks like.
All right, so now you've got amachine that's built.
Let's say to you know, I'mgoing to stick with blog posts
(08:12):
for a while, so you've got amachine that's going to do the
blog posts.
Once you've got it to build theblog posts, you could also have
it write LinkedIn posts andother social media posts based
on your blog post.
Right, you can have it SEO, etcetera.
But then what happens next isyou might want to do it a little
better and a little faster.
(08:33):
And then you can start linkingthese GPTs together.
Right?
So, inside of one context pane,inside of chat GPT, you know
you can call another GPT.
Right, so you can start with onethat maybe analyzes the topic
that you're trying to do, pullsin current research on it, and
(08:56):
then the next one you're callingin your blog post writer, and
so now it writes the blog post,but in it, as part of your GPT,
what you want it to do is askyou for your thoughts on the
subject.
So the first one analyzes it,brings in a lot of data,
summarizes it, and you look overthat and now you can inject
your thoughts.
But the next GPT writes likeyou, knows how to write a post,
(09:19):
knows how to structure a post,knows how to do everything, and
then it starts to write it.
But if you create the gpt theright way, it does it in
sections.
So you don't want it to try towrite it in one fell swoop.
You want it to write it first,create an outline and then
create the sections.
That way you can get a biggerblog post, otherwise you're
going to end up with a 500 wordblog post that doesn't go
(09:41):
anywhere, right?
So now, once you've done allthat, now you've got a really
solid blog post, you call inanother GPT, which then SEOs the
post or gives you tips forSEOing it, right so?
Speaker 2 (09:53):
you can do all this.
You're breaking apart thetokens in a way that that you're
you're having one action thatyou're optimizing for, or one
thing that you're doing, so itbecomes more of a, a refinement
process or a sequencing thatthat builds out, and then, and
then, I guess, after you do thatright you, you automate it.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
Yeah, exactly, you know what I'm doing is I'm
operating it from the front end.
At this point I'm just creatingcustom GPTs.
I'm operating it from the frontend.
I got my process down, I've gotmy outputs down.
Now, once I get all that, thenI can turn around and basically
duplicate that on the playgroundand run APIs and create
automations to where it does allthat every morning.
(10:40):
For me, let's say, I couldliterally have it every morning
go scour the web for currentinformation, come back, give me
all that stuff.
So then I just look at it,approve it, hit another button
and then it rolls and theneventually it populates a Google
Doc that I would then look overand figure out how to go pop it
into a WordPress blog orsomething like that Makes sense.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
Yeah, no, that that that's what I'm working on is is
is taking that workflow andthen being able to to be able to
push it where you're, you'reloading in, maybe topics or
you're approving topics, andit's pulling one, and then, and
then the output is it, it getspublished, Right, and then you
know, I I do believe there'sother agents, which I haven't
(11:27):
quite figured out yet, that canmake sure that it's optimized
with inside, maybe WordPress orsomething like that.
I've figured stuff out that ifyou're not building it inside a
builder, right, you're buildingit in that kind of word text on
the backend or like visualcomposer.
There's a lot you can do withthat, with API calls and things,
(11:50):
and so, yeah, I just, I guessyou know, certainly I see the
opportunity in this and I thinka lot of people listening see it
as well, and a lot of peopleare building this.
But at the same time, I'mterrified on the other end of it
, right, I'm terrified that I'mnot moving fast enough, that
(12:11):
other people are moving faster,um, that, um, you know, can this
get away from me?
Because I, I, I constantly umread and do webinars and go to
conferences to stay on top of it, cause there's been.
And if we just stick with SEOfor a minute, you know, in the
last, let's say, 36 months,there's been more changes in the
(12:32):
last 15, 20 years, and soactually tomorrow I'm having
Bruce Clay on my podcast.
So I'm, you know, father of SEO, and you know I mean things are
just moving so, so rapidly tokeep up.
(12:53):
And then you know, once theseagents start to, let's say, 12
months from now, are kind offully launched and people are,
are, are operating that space,like, are operating that space,
like I'm like that's got to beme, right, and if it's not me,
you know who is doing it.
And and they're going to be sofar ahead, right, they're going
(13:14):
to be so far ahead.
And so you know, you got toconstantly.
It's a moving target, but it'smoving a lot faster now and it's
like how do you stay on on topof this?
In a way that, like you know,seo, seo is dead.
You know SEO, you know longlive the king, kind of thing,
like.
But this is like, no, this ismoving exponentially in a
(13:41):
direction that's going tofundamentally change how things
are done.
It's not just, like you know,further on the plot line in that
general direction.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 3 (13:53):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
That's at least how I'm viewing it.
And so that's where a lot of mytime is going is to, you know,
really figure this out.
So we're operating at thehighest level internally at our
agency.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
Well, I think that's really where specialization is
going to be even more important.
If you try to be a generalist,it's going to be very hard to
succeed, but if you become aspecialist, that's where you're
going to have some domination.
So I mean, like, for instance,I had a friend of mine say I
(14:29):
just don't, man, there's so muchhappening.
You know, he's on ourmastermind group and he was like
there's so much going on, Idon't know what to do.
Do I need to do this?
Do I need to do this, this,this, this?
You know, and I was like dude,you're going to be a master of
(14:49):
none.
We need to drill down to whatit is that you do every day in
your job to make you moreeffective and then turn around
and focus on the AI tools aroundthat and then become the
specialist in that for youraudience.
That's the only way you becomea master at something is by
solving your own problem firstright, and you've got to do that
over and over again.
So if I were going to be sobacking up, I've had an agency
(15:12):
for the last 25 years and webecame a.
We start off as a softwarecompany and then became a
digital marketing agency and Isold the agency part of that off
three years ago to just teachpeople how to use AI, because I
knew that was the new direction.
But I have a lane that I wantto stay in, for that I could be
(15:33):
really broad and then my headwould explode because, I mean
God, every hour a new AI tool islaunched, so you just can't
keep up with that.
A new AI tool is launched, soyou just can't keep up with that
.
But what you do have to do isfigure out how to master you
know a handful of them and bereally effective at executing a
certain lane of things, andthat's where you can provide
(15:56):
more value.
But you know, SEO I think it'sgoing to change.
Its name is really what I thinkis going to happen.
I'd love to be the guy thatcoins it, but it ain't going to
be SEO anymore.
It's going to be AIEO.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
Yeah yeah, no, I've heard that and I you know, over
the years, certainly, like Iactually started on the paid
side of things and then reallyfell in love with SEO side of
things and then really fell inlove with SEO.
But also one of the biggestthings is that, you know, I
(16:33):
would say we really focus onlead generation.
Right, and lead generation iseven broader than SEO, and SEO
that definition has expanded aswell.
Right, Because you're talkingto the social media, large
language models and algorithms,and really it's like how that
orchestra gets put together.
And so there's, you know, peoplesay it takes a village to do
(16:56):
SEO, right, and certainly, youknow, building out different
agents that have differentspecialties and we have quite a
large seo team, but but we offerreally kind of full, full
marketing, like outsourcedmarketing for companies.
So there's, there's a lot ofthings that we're doing that are
ticking the box in in differentareas and and so you know,
(17:21):
there's not one thing right if,if you look at attribution, it's
not, it's not the.
You know, a lot of timesAdWords gets, gets the
attribution, but there's manyother touch points that happen
right and they're all across thefunnel.
You have, you know, peoplefinding the brand in different
(17:42):
ways, whether it be on socialmedia, whether it be through SEO
, whether it be through Reddit.
We're seeing a lot ofopportunity in Reddit, certainly
, right now.
We're actually internally.
One of the big specialties thatwe've been developing is only
4% of all searches are AI rightnow, but we think people, we
(18:05):
think that's going to grow.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
I got a different stat just this morning.
I got a different stat thanthat literally just this morning
.
It's up to 57% now.
Now I don't know where thatcame from.
Okay, wow, but it's frightening.
Now I think what they're saying.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
That's all searches though.
So that's like hey, I thinkwhat they're saying, that's all
searches, though.
So that's like hey, how's theweather?
Like those are notcommercialized searches, I don't
think.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
I don't know, because , if you think about it, google
has inserted Gemini, the.
AI overviews is that Right, yeah, I go to perplexity now before
I go to anything, I also useChatGPT's web search now, which
is trying to go head to headwith perplexity.
It's changing way faster than4%.
(18:54):
I mean way, way more than that,and I think the behavior is
changing as well.
So, instead of people searchingfor keywords or maybe a little
bit of long tail, they'regetting paragraphical, if that's
even a word.
I mean people are describing indetail what they want, and
(19:16):
that's where the new game is toreally step up your content
production to answer thequestions that your customers
ask in a sales process, and thatis one of the GPTs that we've
created.
Also, I want to know what ourcustomers ask, and then I want
to create content around that,and I want that content to be
(19:38):
deep enough to where I canpublish it across every internet
channel there is.
Now, all of a sudden, I've gota fighting chance for an LLM to
pick me up when somebody sayshow do I do X, y, z Like, for
instance, one of the topproducing pages that we have on
our website right now is howmuch does AI training for a
(19:59):
business cost?
That's the blog post, right,that's a pretty damn long tail,
but it's a pretty focused one aswell.
So those are the kinds ofthings that you need to be
learning how to produce, and AIwill let you do that faster.
But, again, given that all thecontent now is really becoming I
(20:25):
don't know, the majority ofit's getting produced by AI and
a lot of it's being produced byAI without a human in the loop,
and the majority of the stuffthat AI LLMs are trained on is
the the massive content that waswritten, say, prior to 2022.
Right, the thing that it doesn'tknow is what excellence looks
(20:47):
like.
It just knows what quantitylooks like.
So, consequently, what itwrites by default is average or
below average, right?
Sometimes it's repetitivegarbage that it just keeps
hearing, and so, if you tell itto write a sales page, it's
going to sound like a crappyinfomercial from the 90s.
A sales page it's going tosound like a crappy infomercial
from the 90s.
(21:07):
So we want to be able to knowourselves, as SEO experts or
copywriters, what excellencelooks like, so that we can drive
it out of AI, because the realrace is going to be AI versus AI
.
Right, you've got AI detectorsout there detecting AI written
content and they're kicking itout, right?
And so now you've got to haveAI that beats that AI.
(21:27):
It's a radar detector, radar togun war, you know.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
Yeah, no, I.
I mean I think that when, whenyou, when you look at how
Google's changed so, so one isGoogle said I felt like they
waved the white flag Right andthey were kind of it was kind of
like no AI content.
So one is Google said I feltlike they waved the white flag
right and it was kind of like noAI content and it's like okay,
ai content, but it's got to addvalue right.
(21:51):
And then they also changed itwhere it's parsing the entire
page right for the answer.
It's not just saying thisanswer, and so it's going to
kind of the zero search resultand you're seeing the AI
overview.
Here's the interesting thingGoogle's losing money per search
.
Okay, they're actually spendingelectricity and energy and
(22:12):
that's why I think they're goingafter the nuclear power plants
and stuff like that, becauseit's costing them money to
produce those AI overviews.
So even a search that theydon't make money on is costing
them to offer a better answer,because they don't want people
well, leaving search, becausethose ads is what makes all
their money.
And I think to your point, whatI'm, what I'm seeing is Well,
(22:38):
one is if you're qualifying forthe core keyword, okay, and how
strong that is in the rankings,you qualify for the long tail
keywords and there's hundredssearches, like you said.
Now, if you hit on somethingthat's a little honey hole, you
want to build some contentaround it.
Certainly, but really 25% ofall searches today are still
(23:02):
brand new searches that Google'snever seen before, so then it's
pulling from all the existingcontent.
It has to better answer thequestion, but I do think you hit
it head on in the sense thatyou know what each page is
trying to do is answer thatsales process as best as
possible, and so you're tryingto figure that out.
(23:22):
Now to shift gears a little bit, because I really thought what
you're doing is interesting.
I want to switch gears fromkind of content and SEO to more
kind of okay, businesses thatare developing an AI-first
culture and kind of where dothey get started?
(23:45):
What does that look like?
What is the definition, right,of an AI-first culture and maybe
some examples of that?
I would love to kind oftransition into that if we could
.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely so.
If you read online, you'll seeall these stats that 86% or 87%
whatever companies have adoptedAI.
But then if you get in front ofan audience of, say, small to
medium sized businesses and youask for a show of hands of who's
using AI, that number drops toabout 30%.
(24:20):
So don't believe what you read.
The adoption curve is going onthe way up, but what they're all
the news I think they'rereporting is what's the Fortune
100 doing?
I don't know about you.
I'm not in the Fortune 100.
And the vast majority of ourclients aren't either.
So they're all small tomedium-sized businesses or small
(24:43):
to medium-sized enterprises,and their adoption rate is think
of it this way everybody'sessentially self-taught if
they're using it at all.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
Right, pardon me, sorry sorry, sorry, there's a
little delay here.
So like I mean I would say, ifyou're in a Fortune 100 company
and they're using Copilot, rightor whatever Microsoft Copilot,
I mean they're using AI in therewhich certainly is a great use.
So making sure your grammar andyour writing, your writing, your
(25:20):
emails are, are very polished.
But I would say that, dependingon the survey, like I would say
, oh, yeah, they've totallyimplemented AI, right.
And then I would say the smallbusinesses hey, I asked chat GBT
for whatever, and it's like youknow, have you used AI this
week?
Okay, yeah, I used AI this week.
So I agree with you from anadoption curve standpoint.
(25:43):
You know, I I don't know my mom.
This is a funny story.
My mom was one of the firstemployees of Microsoft and when
those kinds of red boxes cameout, before red box kind of
dominated the market, there wasa bunch of these coming out and
I was going to buy some of them.
I was out in Florida and I waslike, hey, I think that these
(26:03):
are going to be good, and my momwas like no way, no way, waste
of money, shouldn't do that.
Everything's going to bestreaming, right, netflix kind
of this is pre Netflix.
Yeah, and and she was right,the majority of it is.
But there's still red boxes atat pharmacies and and and
(26:24):
grocery stores today, becausethat that tail is is so long
right and yeah now.
So I think this adoption curveis going to take a lot longer.
But I'm telling you right nowis if you're at the front end of
that thing, I mean you knowyou're gonna get massive,
massive advantage, massive boostand I agree, yeah, and then it
(26:46):
might just get away from us likewho knows?
Like I think, like I, I don'tknow where digital agencies are
going to go in 36 months youknow yeah I mean I don't need it
, but I know.
Speaker 3 (26:59):
I mean, you know, to kind of go to your question of
what's an AI first company looklike it's beyond co-pilot.
Ok, an AI first company iswhere every employee is thinking
, how do I get AI to help me dothis faster?
And it could be just ideation,right, like I have.
I have GPTs that I've createdto help me think through
(27:24):
problems.
I have gpts that I've createdfor our organization that inside
the gpt is just about.
You know, every document theywould need that was describe our
products, our services, ourprocesses or whatever.
So they can use it to eithercreate content on one side or
they can use it to ask the AI aquestion instead of me.
(27:45):
You know those are the kinds ofuses Like I was on a live
stream this morning and that wedo by default is all of our well
, virtually all of our salesconversations are held over Zoom
(28:09):
because you know we I think wehave two employees in Lafayette.
Everybody else is all over thecountry or the world, so we
record all those on Zoom, but wealways have a note taker
present.
If I'm in front of somebody, Iuse this little device.
If you've ever seen that before, it's called a plowed note
P-L-A-U-D.
Go get one.
They're great.
(28:30):
They also have this goofylittle wearable version here,
all right.
So you can take that into anyconference room and record the
thing.
It will give you a transcript.
You can create your owncustomization for analyzing the
transcript.
Those things are invaluable.
So we take the transcript theminute.
You know, we usually use Fathom, but there are others, meetgeek
(28:54):
, you know there's a ton of thembut we take that transcript
even though Fathom has its ownsummary.
That transcript, even thoughFathom has its own summary, we
don't use its summary.
We've created our own.
We analyze it so that weunderstand how well we did in
the sales presentation, becausethe GPT we created knows all of
our products and services and soit's going to analyze that call
(29:16):
and say where did we miss anopportunity?
It's also going to analyze thatcall and help us understand
where the prospect was coming on.
What were the what were arecoming from, what were some of
the subtle signals that we mayhave missed in the conversation?
It'll bring that all out to usand let us understand that sales
call better.
And then we take that same thing, we roll it into a different
GPT and that GPT generates asales proposal all right, based
(29:37):
on everything it knows aboutthat conversation, then we take
that one and we roll it into adifferent GPT.
And that GPT generates a salesproposal all right, based on
everything it knows about thatconversation.
Then we take that one and weroll it into a different GPT.
And that GPT now analyzes theprospect and guess what it does?
It makes that prospect apersona.
So we make it generate a diskprofile and an enneagram Look,
(29:58):
there goes my thumb again.
And so now it then knows howour well, theoretically it knows
how our prospect is thinkingand reacting.
And so then we tell the GPT tobecome that persona.
Instead of the theoreticalpersona we started with in
marketing, now we have theactual persona.
(30:19):
And so then we have thatpersona.
We have GPT assume thatpersonality and read our
proposal, and then we have itcome up with the objections that
the persona would come up withand the questions it had.
And then we have it rewrite theproposal to address that.
And we go through that cyclethree times until now we have a
proposal that's refined tohopefully beat every objection
(30:40):
that our prospect wouldpotentially have, and then we
move into another one that thengenerates an email that also
refines it based on the personathat we can send to the prospect
and say, hey, we got a proposalready.
You had all these issues, we'veaddressed them.
When can we meet, right?
So all of that stuff is done byAI, and that's thinking AI first
.
Right, that stuff is done by AIand that's thinking AI first
(31:01):
right.
That's.
That's not just saying, hey,how can I make this a really
fast copywriter and stuff abunch of boilerplate in there.
I've now got a proposal that isso customized and personalized
it's.
You know, you, you don't getthat old school agency world
that I used to have.
I used to have a whole lot ofboilerplate and I would just
have a summary of what theywanted.
(31:21):
And here's what we're going tosell you.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
Yeah, no, I really like that in that getting in the
mind of the prospect andfiguring out what those
questions might be based uponthe available data, and if
you're bringing actualinformation in from from the
(31:43):
meeting with them, uh, you'reputting in really quality data,
so you're not even guessing andand then and then answering
those objections prior to thecase.
Cause I, I think you know, whenI'm training my sales guys, um,
or consultants, I guess, isthat I think a lot of times they
(32:03):
, you know you got to get on thecall with the client and you
got to you got to understand andsee what those objections are.
Because you know, if they walkaway and you don't know what
their objections are and they'vegot all the information on the
proposal you know they're offmaking their own decision of you
know if you're the right fitfor them or not, or there's
(32:24):
questions that they have thatthey might not have answered or
solved, and so I would say thatthe success rate would go up
dramatically utilizing thatprocess you just described.
Speaker 3 (32:36):
Well, I mean, I always tell people marketing is
the new sales right.
They're intertwined now to adegree you've never seen before.
So with AI, we have the abilityto research our market and
create a persona that weactually use in marketing, as
(32:56):
opposed to, as an agency,charging somebody for a persona
that we don't ever look at again.
We can force AI to use thatpersona, but before a sales call
, in order to get on the callwith somebody, you can use AI to
really analyze that prospect.
So you can do account-basedmarketing to a whole new level.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
Yeah, you can use social media analysis to build a
profile based upon all thatinformation.
Speaker 3 (33:20):
Yeah, I can look at their Twitter feed.
I can look at their LinkedInprofile.
I can do a whole lot of otherstuff.
I can look at their bio.
That's on the website.
I can look at their websiteitself.
And then I can turn around andif my AI knows all the products
and services that I sell, I cansay what problems do they have
that I can potentially solve andthen build a profile around
(33:41):
that.
And now I've got a whole betterway to make that phone call
I've had.
You know, every now and then aspammer gets through to me and
wants to sell me something, andthen they go what do you do?
And I'm like you don't know.
You called me and you don'tknow what I do.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
They're just going down down the list or the
phone's ringing.
Speaker 3 (34:01):
There's no excuse for that now, right, there's no
excuse, right.
And so it gives you an openerthat like you've never had
before in terms of an advantageyou know exactly what their
business does and you can getthat research within 45 seconds
of the phone call and briefyourself really quickly with
some really powerful stuff.
Really quickly with some reallypowerful stuff.
(34:24):
But imagine starting your dayas a sales rep and you've
already got the 50 or 100 peopleyou're supposed to call today
and you've got a solid briefingon them before you make any dial
and it tells you exactly whatpains, problems and frustrations
they may have that you cansolve.
That's powerful.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
Yeah, I mean I used to do cold call selling and we
were calling 60 to 80 people aday and when LinkedIn came out
that was kind of like the firstiteration of it, of actually
knowing some kind of information.
Many times it was like callingpeople in a directory, right,
and you just had a name and atitle and you had to actually
(35:00):
build out who that was and theirbackground and and all the
persona so you have to hopethey're still alive and they
still work for the company yeah,oh, yeah, yeah, is that
information even correct?
like, right, and so they're, youknow, uh, and and then you know
, and I, I think everything'sreversing right.
So I was certainly of like, hey, you want to buy a chicken, you
(35:20):
want to buy a chicken, you wantto buy a chicken, you want to
buy a chicken, you want to buy achicken.
You're going to find someonethat wants to buy a chicken and
you're trying to reach as manypeople as possible.
So I started using digitalmarketing from a leverage
standpoint to, you know,customize a one to many message
and get that same message thathad a high response rate out to
as many people as possible.
Now we're going to the oppositeof this spectrum.
That well, I think it'sexpected, and certainly I get
(35:43):
annoyed, uh, even getting phonecalls or emails when it's not
personalized, right, and you cando personalization at scale.
Now, and, um, you know, I, I, Ithink that, um, that's where
everything's going to go, causeit's not.
If you're getting sold tosomething you actually need and
it's personalized and it'ssolving a problem for you, you
(36:04):
welcome it, but when it's justrandom kind of spaghetti on the
wall, that's when I think itgets annoying.
So I want to transition, if wehave time here, to.
We've talked about maybe thefront front end marketing on top
of the funnel content SEO.
We touched on that.
(36:25):
Then we touched on the salescomponent, which I think is
what's going to really makewaves, right, and, like some of
these AIs, too, that are doingthe outreach and that are like
so there's human checks andbalances in your process and I
think it's phenomenal.
I've seen these AIs that do theoutreach and can go back and
(36:49):
forth and have a conversationand it absolutely blows my mind.
If you don't have a complicatedsell, I think you're more
talking B2B and I think thatthere's so many industries that
are B2B that haven't takenadvantage of marketing like B2C
companies had.
I actually have another podcastthat I do in the oil and gas
(37:11):
space and I do it with theperson that founded the agency.
He's got the largest oil and gaspodcast.
It's called the Oil and GasSales and marketing podcast,
because you know everybody'soriginal and oil and gas um, and
and we actually talk about howto integrate, uh, you know,
marketing qualified leads andsales qualified leads, because a
lot of people think marketingis just, you know, uh, graphic
(37:33):
design and and uh, uh, promostuff right and and and how far
it's become and and how you canland hundred million dollar
contracts through Inbound Right,and I think that for the CMOs
that are open, it's starting toabsolutely change the game and I
(37:54):
think that there's so muchopportunity in that area to
address.
I would love to break thispodcast into a third here and
talk about those AI firstcultures of maybe some use cases
of a company that's integratedin AI into what they're doing
(38:15):
and how it can exponentiallyhelp them solve a problem or add
more value or do something inthe whole business case of like
a kind of a full stackintegration into the core DNA of
what they're doing.
Because I think that you knowsales is one thing and I think
(38:36):
there's probably right now, likeyou said, people saying that
they do it maybe a little bitmore lip service than you know.
Hey, we are.
This is integrated into ourworkflow and I would love to
hear some case studies andexamples about businesses that
have adapted that and kind oftransformed their business.
Speaker 3 (38:57):
Yeah, I can tell you about the people that have gone
through our training and howit's shifted the way they do,
and actually I've given a lot ofexamples of those in the book
that I just released,pre-released to the public.
It'll go on sale on Amazonsometime in March, but I
released it and the book'scalled In-Grain AI Strategy
(39:19):
Through Execution.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
Is that right?
Speaker 3 (39:21):
Yeah, yeah, and you can go to ingrainai and get a
copy of it for a while.
And I'm giving peoplepre-release copies, digital
copies, for free.
So if anybody hears this, theycan go grab that at ingrainai.
But what's happening is, as youknow, you've been playing
around with it, matthew, for awhile, right?
So you've been playing aroundwith ChatGPT for a couple of
(39:45):
years.
You probably played aroundprior to that with Copyai, or
Jarvis as it was called before.
It's Jasper, yeah, oh, yeah,right, so you've been around the
block, but you're like everyother marketer.
They're like oh wow, this isgoing to speed up my job.
So the majority of businessesgot their first taste of AI
(40:07):
through the marketing department, which is way different from
normal.
So now what you have to have isyou have to have other people
in the organization going.
Hmm, how can I use this?
Right?
Sales is a logical one, butthere are so many sales teams
that are far behind that theydon't realize they can use it.
Hr is another one.
(40:28):
Customer service is another one.
Finance is another one.
Legal is another one.
I could go on and on.
We teach skills tracks in eachof those disciplines, by the way
.
But go ahead.
You had a question, Matt.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
So the biggest challenge I've seen, depending
on the size of the company, isreal buying from the top.
Right, you're bringingsomething new in, right, and you
want to get it integrated.
Like I can tell you, I knowsome companies that are
acquiring other companies.
I can tell you, I know somecompanies that are acquiring
other companies and, like yousaid, I think they're just kind
(41:05):
of acquiring them to take outthe competition because they can
.
And I haven't seen a lot ofcompanies fully integrate those
teams and so a lot of times theyoperate kind of independently
and even their CRMs are notreally talking to each other
kind of independently and eventheir CRMs are not really
talking to each other.
So I think that from a, when Isay lip service, I kind of mean
(41:27):
yeah, you know, yeah, we'regoing to do ai, yeah, like ai is
going to change the game, butbut it's got to come from the
executive team down and sayingwe're, we're, you know what we
need to do, a whiteboardingsession and we need to, you know
, completely rethink how, how wedo this and and what are the
(41:49):
steps and where can we add ai tothis to help increase that
efficiency, because if you havesome champion right, that's
trying to pull everybody elsealong right and everybody's not
bought in and it's not beingkind of forced from the top down
.
I think the success rate isgoing to be mixed.
Speaker 3 (42:11):
Yeah, yeah.
So here's what we're seeing.
Um, okay, not to totally agemyself, but, um, I'm, um, I'm in
that age where the the peoplemy age are the ones that are now
running the company.
Okay, give or take 10 years,let's say all I'm stunned at how
(42:36):
many of them are like I don'tknow what this AI thing is.
And all of the younger peopleare like we need to use this.
So what we get is this influxof C-suiters coming to our
training and saying I need toget my head around this so that
I can filter this through theorganization and manage it.
So that's basically.
(42:56):
Step one is getting theleadership team together and
helping them understand.
You can go anywhere and getthese little trainings that
teach you why it's important andwhat it is that's useless.
You got to move beyond that.
You need to know how it canapply and how to do it and how
(43:18):
to speak about it at aconsistent level across the
organization.
And that's what we try to teach.
We try to just go okay, look,I'm not going to teach you the
history of LLMs.
I'm not going to teach you thehistory of machine learning.
I'm not going to teach youabout robotics.
What I am going to teach you todo is use AI tonight and do
something, okay, and and then,by the time you're finished with
(43:40):
our course, you will have builtan AI automation.
Well, not necessarily anautomation, you would have built
a GPT or a series of them.
So that's the capstone project,right?
I want them, I want theC-sweeter, to know what it feels
like to have an AI do somethingthat took some task of theirs,
(44:03):
that would take a week to do,and then all of a sudden have it
done in an hour, or somethingthat would take three hours to
do and have it done in about aminute and a half.
When they see that happen,their heads explode and they go
okay, now I got to get everybodyusing this.
But how do I get them to use itso that we have shareable,
scalable knowledge?
Well, that becomes a process.
(44:24):
Right, it's like in any otherorganization.
The way you scale is bydeveloping SOPs, standard
operating procedures that aredocumented.
Everybody if somebody leaves,somebody else can come in, know
the process, get onboarded andexecute with excellence.
Right, you have to do the samething with AI.
And again, you know, once theyunderstand that framework and
that foundation, then it startsto really scale and then you get
(44:49):
.
If you develop it right, thenyou get HR going to marketing
and going hey, you know how youwrote that job description over
here.
Can I take that prompt?
Because now I want to write ajob description that meets the
legal requirements for ourdocumentation inside, right, and
then you get somebody in legallike this is a whack incident
(45:09):
you were talking about.
You're in the oil and gas space.
One of the guys that wentthrough our training is a
chemical engineer or a chemist,I can't remember which.
He works for some of thelargest oil companies in the
world.
He develops chemicals for themto use in various rigs and other
things.
He applies for somewherebetween 15 and 20 patents a year
(45:31):
and he's got a softwareapplication that costs $15,000 a
year to help him create thesethese patents.
And then he hands it off to anattorney who does a patent
search to determine whether ornot there are conflicts with his
patent, and so they employ ateam of legal big business in
(45:52):
our training Okay, no-transcript, there are no conflicts.
(46:27):
And then he just hands it to hisattorney.
So he terminated a $15,000software application and instead
of spending $3,000 to $5,000per patent in legal fees, he's
paying now about $800 to $1,000in legal fees.
And when he hands off the briefto the attorney, they're like
whoa, no, I can absolutely seethat we built something like
(46:51):
that for content gap analysis.
Speaker 2 (46:52):
Absolutely, we built something like that for content
gap analysis.
But I think solving a biggerproblem with more zeros
associated with it, more value Ican absolutely see that kind of
scenario happen over and overagain.
So not just more productivity,but a cost savings based on the
(47:13):
current process of what they'recurrently doing.
Okay, so we're kind of gettingto the end here.
I want to just understand alittle bit more and I think for
the audience as well of kind ofyou know the service offering
you have from a corporatetraining standpoint.
I want to understand a littlebit more about maybe you know
(47:34):
you find a business that needsit, they probably hire you, and
how do you kind of graft yourorganization to that company?
Because you know a lot of thisstuff can't be implemented or
solved overnight, and so youknow there's a real process to
change mindset to get some ofthese workflows and SOPs
(47:56):
implemented.
So I'm curious, kind of okay,you have a great community, it
looks like you're doingcorporate training, you're
getting people into workshops,you have office hours.
I totally get all that.
I want to know a little bitmore about the direct engagement
right, they're like they wantit done with you, right, they
(48:17):
want it done with you to get itimplemented, kind of?
Speaker 3 (48:22):
how are you approaching that?
Yeah, good question.
So what we typically do is wewant one or more of the
executive team to go through ourbusiness leader skills track.
So we have a business leaderskills track.
So we have a business leaderskills track, one for sale, one
for marketing, one for legal,blah, blah, blah.
We got 10 different skillstracks that they go through, but
everybody goes through the samefoundational training and then
(48:43):
they go into their unique salestrack.
I want a business leader to gothrough the business leader
sales track first and then theywould engage us to help them
come up with a plan to push itthroughout the organization and
what they'll understand as theygo through that because it's
recorded.
They can kind of go at theirown leisure, so they don't have
(49:04):
to go suck out three days oftheir time and get to a power
webinar or a workshop.
They can go through it at theirown pace and now they have a
really good understanding.
And then they say, okay, now weneed your help to establish AI
governance.
Depending on how big they are,if it's a small company, it's a
different, different deal.
Then they want to getleadership Um, maybe the
(49:26):
management team, um, trained upon it.
You you have to have internalchampions, and the you know,
know this from being an SEO.
When we started our company, theone thing that we noticed is
that every business that wanteda website, the IT department
(49:47):
handled the website initially,and you're like just because
it's software doesn't mean itneeds to be in IT Right and
gradually, it loosened up andsaid OK, well, we'll let
marketing do it, because nowthere's WordPress, now there's a
UI, but we're still going tocontrol the engine.
We'll let you play around withthe UI.
Speaker 2 (50:09):
It's a security thing , right, and that's security
first.
And so we've developedworkarounds to help get a better
action.
Yeah, everybody kind of does,and that's what's happening now
right In these organizations.
Speaker 3 (50:20):
The workaround is the worker goes in and logs into
their own personal account andnow you have security risks.
So we want to.
What we want to try to do iscreate AI governance that has
some rules but a lot ofguidelines, and we want to have
oversight that's not handcuffingbut empowering.
So I don't really want IToverseeing AI governance.
(50:43):
I want them having a voice init.
But what I do want in AIgovernance is somebody who is an
innovator and a power user whoreally gets the impact, because
it has to move fast.
So you have to have the rightperson overseeing it, and so we
teach people what that lookslike.
I go with that in great detailin the book.
All right.
(51:04):
So now, once we got AIoversight in the right hands,
with the right mindset, now Ican get all the people on board
and they actually get excitedwhen they go oh, this is going
to make my job easier.
This is so amazing, right.
And so now what they've seen ispeople really get excited about
(51:25):
learning it, about executing it, and, if you structure it the
right way, they share amongstthemselves instead of compete
with themselves.
They share that knowledge andthat expertise.
And that's when you start toget this AI first thinking.
And again, AI first thinking isnot just how do I get it to
(51:46):
write a blog post, it is how doI get it to do?
How do I think about going toAI first to get my idea or my
question answered, instead ofbugging my boss or instead of
doing my old school research,how do I just ask ChatGPT a
better question?
(52:07):
And then, if you're in sales,the stuff that you can do now
with multimodal AI is alsoinsane.
You know you were talking aboutoutbound sales calls.
You could like salesai.
You can, for I think it's$2,500 a month.
You can get an outbound callingAI agent that will replace
(52:29):
three outbound appointmentsetters and you could use it for
setting appointments or youcould use it for just
discovering who the decisionmaker is.
You could use it for a lot ofthings.
You could build your own also,but the reporting tools inside
of salesai are pretty, prettyslick.
We had him come talk to ourmastermind.
It's cool stuff.
But imagine in your ownorganization when you create
(52:53):
that, that GPT.
You can just do this with a GPT.
You don't even have to go outand build an agent for this.
But if you build a GPT thatunderstands all your sales
materials and all that stuff,you can now use your phone and
have an oral conversation withthat GPT as a role-playing agent
.
I mean, you can't quite clonethat guy's voice and put it in
(53:18):
the GPT yet If you wanted tospend some money, you could
build an agent.
Speaker 2 (53:22):
You could do a lot of that.
Yeah, yeah, I mean, anything'spossible.
Speaker 3 (53:26):
Yeah, a cheap way is to just do a chat, GPT.
But yeah, you can do that.
It's amazing.
Speaker 2 (53:32):
Well, I mean, when I went into sales role.
It's amazing.
Well, I mean, that's when Iwent into sales role.
Playing was a huge part of it,right, and AI could analyze what
you're saying, how yourresponse rates are, what you
should use in response.
I mean, I can see so manyapplications as an adjunct, not
just a replacement, with AI.
So, completely, this has justbeen great.
(53:54):
This has been reallyfascinating.
John InGrainai, how do peopleget in touch with you if they
want to learn more?
Join the community?
Get a copy of the book.
Speaker 3 (54:06):
Sure, yeah, I mean you can go to InGrainai and you
can join the community.
I think all you have to do toreally join the community is
just request a copy of the book.
For now you can.
You can join our mastermindgroup.
You can catch me on LinkedIn Ithink I'm JW Munsell on LinkedIn
or or go to the other corporatewebsite, which is bazooka B I Z
(54:28):
Z U K acom.
That's where we do all thecorporate training and stuff.
Speaker 2 (54:32):
So Well, I don't know about this one, what is called
bazooka?
Speaker 3 (54:36):
yeah, b-i-z-z-u-k-a dot com.
Yeah, that's the company thatwe've had for 20 plus years now
very cool, all right.
Speaker 2 (54:48):
Well, um, I think this was an absolutely
fascinating conversation.
Um, I usually ask people what'sone unknown secret of internet
marketing that you want to leavethe audience with?
Speaker 3 (55:03):
An unknown secret man .
I don't have an unknown secretbecause I haven't figured it out
yet.
I don't have an unknown secretbecause I haven't figured it out
yet.
The unknown secret to me isgoing to be figuring out what's
the new SEO.
To get me at the top ofperplexity, you know, without
(55:24):
going through all kinds ofgymnastics, you know, I've seen
other trainers go and illustratehow they can key in all this
stuff and all of a sudden theirwebsite comes up and I'm like,
yeah, that's because you wroteseven paragraphs.
You know, I want to know how toreally build the fly trap, you
know, for the new SEO, which isgoing to be all LLM based.
(55:50):
But I don't have that unlockedyet.
Speaker 2 (55:53):
I'm working on it.
Yeah, no, so we can talk alittle bit more offline.
I actually that's been whereour focus has been right.
So certainly, ai agents are alittle bit newer, but over the
last 18 months, that was one ofthe first things that clients
started asking and we werecurious ourself is things that
(56:15):
clients started asking and wewere curious ourself is okay,
there's going to be one answertypically Now Perplexity.
Their model's a little bitdifferent.
Right, they're pushing outtheir own affiliate links, which
is pretty amazing from arevenue standpoint and there's
definitely some balancing actissues with it that I think
people have.
But they're monetizing theselinks, um, and it's quite
(56:36):
dramatic based on the number ofsearches they have, on how many
affiliate links they can pushout.
But uh, I had a client.
Uh, we've, we've.
We get about probably two leadsa week that are coming through.
They found us through chat GBTor one of the other language
models, and one of our biggestclients actually this was this
(56:57):
was probably about a year ago umand uh, you know, we were, we
were working on chat gbt and wewere working on ranking in chat
gbt and and a lot of the thingsthat we were doing are really
just going back to thefundamentals and doing really
good SEO.
And they called in and theysaid and they wanted to get me
(57:21):
on the call, and so thesalesperson brought me in.
He said hey, the only reason Iam talking to y'all is I was
searching for the top AI SEOcompany in Perplexity, and this
was at the time.
I'm not sure right now and theysaid y'all came up and my first
(57:43):
question at the time was like,what is Perplexity?
Speaker 3 (57:49):
Unconscious competence is what we call that
you don't even know how good,you are.
Speaker 2 (57:54):
And so you know that you know I was being honest,
like I I'm pretty uh,transparent as far as what, what
, what I know, what I don't know, and what we can do, and uh,
and so we started thatconversation and at a certain
point he goes, I feel like Iknow you or heard your voice
before, whatever.
And and then I was like, well,maybe you listen to the podcast,
(58:17):
you know, I'll just kind ofthrow it out there.
And he goes, what's it called?
And he's searching.
He says, oh my gosh, I know you.
He's like you know, and he'slike, yeah, I've listened to the
podcast, and so that.
And then we close that deal umyou know, so there's kind of
that expertise, authority, trustand, and certainly ai got us in
the game right, but the humanelement pulled it all the way
(58:41):
through to close the deal and Ithink there's going to be a lot
of that kind of augmented userthat's going to be able to be
superhuman and be, able toleverage a lot of these skill
sets and I think the biggestthing that's going to slow
people back is what you'retalking about is the corporate
(59:02):
governance of really adopting itand getting it implemented.
That's what I've seen.
The fastest thing to kill agreat new idea in a in a big in
a big company is it's it's justnot getting to buy it.
You know.
Speaker 3 (59:19):
Yeah, true, oh, I will give you one secret.
Okay, now that I think about it.
So this is this is actually thequestion that I ask all of our
prospects at the beginning ofthe call, of the discovery call,
and it's and I even tell themthis is a trick question.
So I want you to pay attentionto how I ask the question and I
(59:42):
said 90% of the people get theanswer wrong.
So let's see how you do.
And the question is this whatare the top three problems you
solve for your customer?
Okay, so I'll repeat it onemore time what are the top three
problems you solve for yourcustomer?
And what they typically comeback with is the top three
products they sell to theircustomer.
(01:00:02):
The key is knowing what problemyou solve and being able to
articulate it as a problem.
And when you know how toarticulate the problem in your
prospect's mind that you solve,that unlocks your marketing.
That's the secret.
If you don't know how toarticulate the problem, then
(01:00:24):
you're selling a product oryou're selling benefits, or
you're selling features.
The minute you understand howto articulate the problem and
what's going on in yourprospect's mind in terms of
pains and frustrations, now, allof a sudden, you've got a shot
at a lot of other things, right,that's.
That's my, my top secret forthe day.
Speaker 2 (01:00:43):
I love it.
I think that that is what I'mseeing too, and this is a good
place to end.
It is the AI is only good asgood as the operator and the
knowledge in the operator's headon how to get to the right
answer and what good looks likebased on what you're saying.
Until you train those verycustomized agents that know
(01:01:12):
you've inputted all thatinformation, that will give you
the right answer.
Right, but to just take thegeneral AI to ask it, unless you
know what you're trying to getto and what that good
copywriting or whatever it islooks like, you're only as good
as the operator you're.
Speaker 3 (01:01:36):
You're only as good as the operator, right?
Yeah, so yeah.
And then the key is to cloneyour knowledge into the ai, and
that's where you really aregoing to crush it.
Right, because when ai canrecall your ideas faster than
you can, you're dominating yeah,no, I love it.
Speaker 2 (01:01:49):
I love john.
All right, um, everyone.
Uh, hopefully you enjoyed thisas well.
That's why we do this toconnect with people and bring in
great minds that are addressingproblems in the industry from a
different approach.
I don't have all the answers.
I'm constantly learning andeveryone's going on this journey
(01:02:11):
with me, and this was great.
If you are looking to grow yourbusiness, currently right with
the largest, most powerful toolon the planet, which is the
internet, and then we canaugment AI to that, reach out to
EWR for more revenue in yourbusiness.
We built a proven marketingsystem that generates you leads
(01:02:35):
online.
Until the next time, my name isMatt Bertram.
Bye, bye for now.
This is the Unknown Secrets of Internet Marketing,
your insider guide to thestrategies top marketers use to
crush the competition.
Ready to unlock your businessfull potential, let's get
started.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Howdy.
Welcome back to anotherfun-filled episode of the
Unknown Secrets of InternetMarketing.
I am your host, matt Bertram.
A couple of Internet Marketing.
I am your host, matt Bertram.
A couple of quick housekeeping.
We may be rebranding thepodcast again.
I brought on a new projectmanager and you know, based upon
what y'all have said, we aregoing to make some more changes,
(00:38):
so just be looking out for that.
Thank you for being patient.
As Chris left, we're kind ofmoving in a new direction and to
continue our series.
I know something that's veryhot for everyone is AI and
what's going to happen with that, and as we're doing this series
, I'm bringing in all kinds ofmovers and shakers and experts
(01:00):
in the industry.
I ran across John Munsell withInGrain AI, who is teaching
people how to be an AI culturefirst, or in your business and
your company, how to have an AIculture first.
I think it's really important,based on kind of a case-shaped
approach of either you're goingto adopt AI and you're going to
(01:24):
rise and you're going to takemore market share, and you're
going to adopt AI and you'regoing to rise and you're going
to take more market share andyou're going to grow, or you're
going to keep doing exactly whatyou're doing, and those other
people are going to pass you byand it's going to become
increasingly more difficult.
So I would encourage you all tolisten up to John.
Thank you so much for coming onthe podcast.
I think everybody will listenattentively to what you have to
(01:46):
say as they're trying to figureout what to do with this new
thing called AI.
That hasn't actually been new,but it's new to the public since
ChatGVT.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
Right, no good to be on.
I appreciate you having me on,Matt.
I spent 25 years in digitalmarketing, so I've been doing
this a while myself.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Yeah, it's constantly evolving.
It's a moving target.
Certainly, there's a lot goingon with large language models
and really all the searchengines are AI.
That's essentially what you'redoing is you're training the
model to understand who you areand what you do and what your
(02:29):
expertise, authority and trustis, to rank you higher, to be
the right answer for a number ofdifferent questions.
And I really call SEO thelanguage of AI in a lot of ways,
with schema and the things thatyou're doing, you're just
you're just trying to bettercommunicate with the large
language model and and itcreates a feedback loop.
(02:53):
And you know, what we're seeingwith a lot of businesses is
they're really starting to getserious and say, hey, we, we
need an AI program.
How are we gonna do this?
We don't want you using, maybe,public language models, we
don't want you to add to thedatabase proprietary data, and
(03:15):
so people are getting moresophisticated in what they're
doing.
I'm actually seeing a number ofcompanies start to roll out AI
initiatives and I think it'sreally gonna start to roll out
AI initiatives and I think it'sreally going to start to impact
the bottom line.
I think also, even with somepublicly traded companies as
they start to harness AI, you'regoing to see some real growth.
(03:37):
So Salesforce for example is oneexample that I'm following
pretty closely.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
Yeah Well, if you followed Salesforce then you may
or may not know that they justbought gosh Respell Respellai.
So big fan of Respell.
Respell does AI automations andAI agents and when they
acquired them I was like oh goodfor them, because we had the uh
(04:05):
, the founder of Respell, on ourour uh, we have a mastermind.
We had him speak to ourmastermind last year, so I was
happy for him.
But on the other end I was likeGod, I hope they didn't one of
those deals where they boughtthem to just trash them because
they were in their way, becauseit was a really good product.
But I got a good point.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
I think the agents is .
I mean, tell me a little bitabout what you're seeing.
I mean I am spending a bit ofmy free time playing around with
agents, because I think anybodythat's doing knowledge work or
computer work.
I mean there's even tools whereI can if there's anything
somewhat repetitive that I'mdoing, I can teach an agent how
(04:49):
to do what it is that I'm doingand then give it a little
autonomy and eventually thatcould be a little employee right
there, right.
And so what I see people doingand I haven't dug into it enough
, but they're building out fullteams right With different
(05:09):
specialties doing differentthings.
And I think the VA space, youknow, the customer service space
, like even with Salesforce, thesales space I mean I've seen
some sales agents that areblowing my mind on what they can
do and then you're able to linkall this stuff together.
(05:29):
And then even ChatGVT just cameout for 200 bucks a month with
their agent program and I'm justgoing, man, this is moving
really, really fast.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
Yeah, yeah, it's moving really fast, but I think
it's like anything else.
You got to crawl, walk, runright.
Running is the agent side, allright.
You got to figure out how towalk before you get to doing
agents, and then you got tofigure out how to crawl first.
So a lot of people are still.
They haven't even addressed thecrawl stage.
So what they do is what I wouldcall untethered AI.
(06:05):
So, in other words, they justask AI to write them a blog post
and they get something thatsounds like AI, and if you just
let that go into an agent now,you're going to have a crappy
sounding copy at scale you know,which is going to really screw
with your SEO as well.
(06:26):
So that's where you need toback down and figure out how do
you actually prompt the AI to?
How do you structure a promptso that the AI not only sounds
like you but actually sharesyour thought leadership inside
of whatever you produce and hasthe intellect to know how to
optimize that right?
Speaker 2 (06:48):
well, I think that's where you you're.
You're uploading uh data filesright?
Speaker 3 (06:54):
um, yes and no right.
So so if step one is justlearning how to get the ai, uh
prompting down so fair enough,okay.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
So if we're, if we're , if we're breaking it down,
it's about you know.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
So step one is that.
But in order to do that, youneed to know what goes into a
good prompt in order to get theoutput down.
And what we teach is aframework that we call the AI
strategy canvas, and it teachesyou and you can download it for
free on our website but itteaches you what blocks of
information are necessary inorder to get the best output out
(07:31):
of AI.
Once you understand that, thenyou move into the next stage,
which would be what I would callthe walk fast stage.
And the walk fast stage isbuilding like a custom GPT or a
Gemini Gem or a Claude project,because now you've got
(07:51):
repetitive stuff that you needto do, but in those GPTs you can
upload the documents that youneed so that the AI has stuff to
pull on, but you still need tohave the right framework for
what that prompt looks like.
All right, so now you've got amachine that's built.
Let's say to you know, I'mgoing to stick with blog posts
(08:12):
for a while, so you've got amachine that's going to do the
blog posts.
Once you've got it to build theblog posts, you could also have
it write LinkedIn posts andother social media posts based
on your blog post.
Right, you can have it SEO, etcetera.
But then what happens next isyou might want to do it a little
better and a little faster.
(08:33):
And then you can start linkingthese GPTs together.
Right?
So, inside of one context pane,inside of chat GPT, you know
you can call another GPT.
Right, so you can start with onethat maybe analyzes the topic
that you're trying to do, pullsin current research on it, and
(08:56):
then the next one you're callingin your blog post writer, and
so now it writes the blog post,but in it, as part of your GPT,
what you want it to do is askyou for your thoughts on the
subject.
So the first one analyzes it,brings in a lot of data,
summarizes it, and you look overthat and now you can inject
your thoughts.
But the next GPT writes likeyou, knows how to write a post,
(09:19):
knows how to structure a post,knows how to do everything, and
then it starts to write it.
But if you create the gpt theright way, it does it in
sections.
So you don't want it to try towrite it in one fell swoop.
You want it to write it first,create an outline and then
create the sections.
That way you can get a biggerblog post, otherwise you're
going to end up with a 500 wordblog post that doesn't go
(09:41):
anywhere, right?
So now, once you've done allthat, now you've got a really
solid blog post, you call inanother GPT, which then SEOs the
post or gives you tips forSEOing it, right so?
Speaker 2 (09:53):
you can do all this.
You're breaking apart thetokens in a way that that you're
you're having one action thatyou're optimizing for, or one
thing that you're doing, so itbecomes more of a, a refinement
process or a sequencing thatthat builds out, and then, and
then, I guess, after you do thatright you, you automate it.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
Yeah, exactly, you know what I'm doing is I'm
operating it from the front end.
At this point I'm just creatingcustom GPTs.
I'm operating it from the frontend.
I got my process down, I've gotmy outputs down.
Now, once I get all that, thenI can turn around and basically
duplicate that on the playgroundand run APIs and create
automations to where it does allthat every morning.
(10:40):
For me, let's say, I couldliterally have it every morning
go scour the web for currentinformation, come back, give me
all that stuff.
So then I just look at it,approve it, hit another button
and then it rolls and theneventually it populates a Google
Doc that I would then look overand figure out how to go pop it
into a WordPress blog orsomething like that Makes sense.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
Yeah, no, that that that's what I'm working on is is
is taking that workflow andthen being able to to be able to
push it where you're, you'reloading in, maybe topics or
you're approving topics, andit's pulling one, and then, and
then the output is it, it getspublished, Right, and then you
know, I I do believe there'sother agents, which I haven't
(11:27):
quite figured out yet, that canmake sure that it's optimized
with inside, maybe WordPress orsomething like that.
I've figured stuff out that ifyou're not building it inside a
builder, right, you're buildingit in that kind of word text on
the backend or like visualcomposer.
There's a lot you can do withthat, with API calls and things,
(11:50):
and so, yeah, I just, I guessyou know, certainly I see the
opportunity in this and I thinka lot of people listening see it
as well, and a lot of peopleare building this.
But at the same time, I'mterrified on the other end of it
, right, I'm terrified that I'mnot moving fast enough, that
(12:11):
other people are moving faster,um, that, um, you know, can this
get away from me?
Because I, I, I constantly umread and do webinars and go to
conferences to stay on top of it, cause there's been.
And if we just stick with SEOfor a minute, you know, in the
last, let's say, 36 months,there's been more changes in the
(12:32):
last 15, 20 years, and soactually tomorrow I'm having
Bruce Clay on my podcast.
So I'm, you know, father of SEO, and you know I mean things are
just moving so, so rapidly tokeep up.
(12:53):
And then you know, once theseagents start to, let's say, 12
months from now, are kind offully launched and people are,
are, are operating that space,like, are operating that space,
like I'm like that's got to beme, right, and if it's not me,
you know who is doing it.
And and they're going to be sofar ahead, right, they're going
(13:14):
to be so far ahead.
And so you know, you got toconstantly.
It's a moving target, but it'smoving a lot faster now and it's
like how do you stay on on topof this?
In a way that, like you know,seo, seo is dead.
You know SEO, you know longlive the king, kind of thing,
like.
But this is like, no, this ismoving exponentially in a
(13:41):
direction that's going tofundamentally change how things
are done.
It's not just, like you know,further on the plot line in that
general direction.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 3 (13:53):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
That's at least how I'm viewing it.
And so that's where a lot of mytime is going is to, you know,
really figure this out.
So we're operating at thehighest level internally at our
agency.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
Well, I think that's really where specialization is
going to be even more important.
If you try to be a generalist,it's going to be very hard to
succeed, but if you become aspecialist, that's where you're
going to have some domination.
So I mean, like, for instance,I had a friend of mine say I
(14:29):
just don't, man, there's so muchhappening.
You know, he's on ourmastermind group and he was like
there's so much going on, Idon't know what to do.
Do I need to do this?
Do I need to do this, this,this, this?
You know, and I was like dude,you're going to be a master of
(14:49):
none.
We need to drill down to whatit is that you do every day in
your job to make you moreeffective and then turn around
and focus on the AI tools aroundthat and then become the
specialist in that for youraudience.
That's the only way you becomea master at something is by
solving your own problem firstright, and you've got to do that
over and over again.
So if I were going to be sobacking up, I've had an agency
(15:12):
for the last 25 years and webecame a.
We start off as a softwarecompany and then became a
digital marketing agency and Isold the agency part of that off
three years ago to just teachpeople how to use AI, because I
knew that was the new direction.
But I have a lane that I wantto stay in, for that I could be
(15:33):
really broad and then my headwould explode because, I mean
God, every hour a new AI tool islaunched, so you just can't
keep up with that.
A new AI tool is launched, soyou just can't keep up with that
.
But what you do have to do isfigure out how to master you
know a handful of them and bereally effective at executing a
certain lane of things, andthat's where you can provide
(15:56):
more value.
But you know, SEO I think it'sgoing to change.
Its name is really what I thinkis going to happen.
I'd love to be the guy thatcoins it, but it ain't going to
be SEO anymore.
It's going to be AIEO.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
Yeah yeah, no, I've heard that and I you know, over
the years, certainly, like Iactually started on the paid
side of things and then reallyfell in love with SEO side of
things and then really fell inlove with SEO.
But also one of the biggestthings is that, you know, I
(16:33):
would say we really focus onlead generation.
Right, and lead generation iseven broader than SEO, and SEO
that definition has expanded aswell.
Right, Because you're talkingto the social media, large
language models and algorithms,and really it's like how that
orchestra gets put together.
And so there's, you know, peoplesay it takes a village to do
(16:56):
SEO, right, and certainly, youknow, building out different
agents that have differentspecialties and we have quite a
large seo team, but but we offerreally kind of full, full
marketing, like outsourcedmarketing for companies.
So there's, there's a lot ofthings that we're doing that are
ticking the box in in differentareas and and so you know,
(17:21):
there's not one thing right if,if you look at attribution, it's
not, it's not the.
You know, a lot of timesAdWords gets, gets the
attribution, but there's manyother touch points that happen
right and they're all across thefunnel.
You have, you know, peoplefinding the brand in different
(17:42):
ways, whether it be on socialmedia, whether it be through SEO
, whether it be through Reddit.
We're seeing a lot ofopportunity in Reddit, certainly
, right now.
We're actually internally.
One of the big specialties thatwe've been developing is only
4% of all searches are AI rightnow, but we think people, we
(18:05):
think that's going to grow.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
I got a different stat just this morning.
I got a different stat thanthat literally just this morning
.
It's up to 57% now.
Now I don't know where thatcame from.
Okay, wow, but it's frightening.
Now I think what they're saying.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
That's all searches though.
So that's like hey, I thinkwhat they're saying, that's all
searches, though.
So that's like hey, how's theweather?
Like those are notcommercialized searches, I don't
think.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
I don't know, because , if you think about it, google
has inserted Gemini, the.
AI overviews is that Right, yeah, I go to perplexity now before
I go to anything, I also useChatGPT's web search now, which
is trying to go head to headwith perplexity.
It's changing way faster than4%.
(18:54):
I mean way, way more than that,and I think the behavior is
changing as well.
So, instead of people searchingfor keywords or maybe a little
bit of long tail, they'regetting paragraphical, if that's
even a word.
I mean people are describing indetail what they want, and
(19:16):
that's where the new game is toreally step up your content
production to answer thequestions that your customers
ask in a sales process, and thatis one of the GPTs that we've
created.
Also, I want to know what ourcustomers ask, and then I want
to create content around that,and I want that content to be
(19:38):
deep enough to where I canpublish it across every internet
channel there is.
Now, all of a sudden, I've gota fighting chance for an LLM to
pick me up when somebody sayshow do I do X, y, z Like, for
instance, one of the topproducing pages that we have on
our website right now is howmuch does AI training for a
(19:59):
business cost?
That's the blog post, right,that's a pretty damn long tail,
but it's a pretty focused one aswell.
So those are the kinds ofthings that you need to be
learning how to produce, and AIwill let you do that faster.
But, again, given that all thecontent now is really becoming I
(20:25):
don't know, the majority ofit's getting produced by AI and
a lot of it's being produced byAI without a human in the loop,
and the majority of the stuffthat AI LLMs are trained on is
the the massive content that waswritten, say, prior to 2022.
Right, the thing that it doesn'tknow is what excellence looks
(20:47):
like.
It just knows what quantitylooks like.
So, consequently, what itwrites by default is average or
below average, right?
Sometimes it's repetitivegarbage that it just keeps
hearing, and so, if you tell itto write a sales page, it's
going to sound like a crappyinfomercial from the 90s.
A sales page it's going tosound like a crappy infomercial
from the 90s.
(21:07):
So we want to be able to knowourselves, as SEO experts or
copywriters, what excellencelooks like, so that we can drive
it out of AI, because the realrace is going to be AI versus AI
.
Right, you've got AI detectorsout there detecting AI written
content and they're kicking itout, right?
And so now you've got to haveAI that beats that AI.
(21:27):
It's a radar detector, radar togun war, you know.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
Yeah, no, I.
I mean I think that when, whenyou, when you look at how
Google's changed so, so one isGoogle said I felt like they
waved the white flag Right andthey were kind of it was kind of
like no AI content.
So one is Google said I feltlike they waved the white flag
right and it was kind of like noAI content and it's like okay,
ai content, but it's got to addvalue right.
(21:51):
And then they also changed itwhere it's parsing the entire
page right for the answer.
It's not just saying thisanswer, and so it's going to
kind of the zero search resultand you're seeing the AI
overview.
Here's the interesting thingGoogle's losing money per search
.
Okay, they're actually spendingelectricity and energy and
(22:12):
that's why I think they're goingafter the nuclear power plants
and stuff like that, becauseit's costing them money to
produce those AI overviews.
So even a search that theydon't make money on is costing
them to offer a better answer,because they don't want people
well, leaving search, becausethose ads is what makes all
their money.
And I think to your point, whatI'm, what I'm seeing is Well,
(22:38):
one is if you're qualifying forthe core keyword, okay, and how
strong that is in the rankings,you qualify for the long tail
keywords and there's hundredssearches, like you said.
Now, if you hit on somethingthat's a little honey hole, you
want to build some contentaround it.
Certainly, but really 25% ofall searches today are still
(23:02):
brand new searches that Google'snever seen before, so then it's
pulling from all the existingcontent.
It has to better answer thequestion, but I do think you hit
it head on in the sense thatyou know what each page is
trying to do is answer thatsales process as best as
possible, and so you're tryingto figure that out.
(23:22):
Now to shift gears a little bit, because I really thought what
you're doing is interesting.
I want to switch gears fromkind of content and SEO to more
kind of okay, businesses thatare developing an AI-first
culture and kind of where dothey get started?
(23:45):
What does that look like?
What is the definition, right,of an AI-first culture and maybe
some examples of that?
I would love to kind oftransition into that if we could
.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely so.
If you read online, you'll seeall these stats that 86% or 87%
whatever companies have adoptedAI.
But then if you get in front ofan audience of, say, small to
medium sized businesses and youask for a show of hands of who's
using AI, that number drops toabout 30%.
(24:20):
So don't believe what you read.
The adoption curve is going onthe way up, but what they're all
the news I think they'rereporting is what's the Fortune
100 doing?
I don't know about you.
I'm not in the Fortune 100.
And the vast majority of ourclients aren't either.
So they're all small tomedium-sized businesses or small
(24:43):
to medium-sized enterprises,and their adoption rate is think
of it this way everybody'sessentially self-taught if
they're using it at all.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
Right, pardon me, sorry sorry, sorry, there's a
little delay here.
So like I mean I would say, ifyou're in a Fortune 100 company
and they're using Copilot, rightor whatever Microsoft Copilot,
I mean they're using AI in therewhich certainly is a great use.
So making sure your grammar andyour writing, your writing, your
(25:20):
emails are, are very polished.
But I would say that, dependingon the survey, like I would say
, oh, yeah, they've totallyimplemented AI, right.
And then I would say the smallbusinesses hey, I asked chat GBT
for whatever, and it's like youknow, have you used AI this
week?
Okay, yeah, I used AI this week.
So I agree with you from anadoption curve standpoint.
(25:43):
You know, I I don't know my mom.
This is a funny story.
My mom was one of the firstemployees of Microsoft and when
those kinds of red boxes cameout, before red box kind of
dominated the market, there wasa bunch of these coming out and
I was going to buy some of them.
I was out in Florida and I waslike, hey, I think that these
(26:03):
are going to be good, and my momwas like no way, no way, waste
of money, shouldn't do that.
Everything's going to bestreaming, right, netflix kind
of this is pre Netflix.
Yeah, and and she was right,the majority of it is.
But there's still red boxes atat pharmacies and and and
(26:24):
grocery stores today, becausethat that tail is is so long
right and yeah now.
So I think this adoption curveis going to take a lot longer.
But I'm telling you right nowis if you're at the front end of
that thing, I mean you knowyou're gonna get massive,
massive advantage, massive boostand I agree, yeah, and then it
(26:46):
might just get away from us likewho knows?
Like I think, like I, I don'tknow where digital agencies are
going to go in 36 months youknow yeah I mean I don't need it
, but I know.
Speaker 3 (26:59):
I mean, you know, to kind of go to your question of
what's an AI first company looklike it's beyond co-pilot.
Ok, an AI first company iswhere every employee is thinking
, how do I get AI to help me dothis faster?
And it could be just ideation,right, like I have.
I have GPTs that I've createdto help me think through
(27:24):
problems.
I have gpts that I've createdfor our organization that inside
the gpt is just about.
You know, every document theywould need that was describe our
products, our services, ourprocesses or whatever.
So they can use it to eithercreate content on one side or
they can use it to ask the AI aquestion instead of me.
(27:45):
You know those are the kinds ofuses Like I was on a live
stream this morning and that wedo by default is all of our well
, virtually all of our salesconversations are held over Zoom
(28:09):
because you know we I think wehave two employees in Lafayette.
Everybody else is all over thecountry or the world, so we
record all those on Zoom, but wealways have a note taker
present.
If I'm in front of somebody, Iuse this little device.
If you've ever seen that before, it's called a plowed note
P-L-A-U-D.
Go get one.
They're great.
(28:30):
They also have this goofylittle wearable version here,
all right.
So you can take that into anyconference room and record the
thing.
It will give you a transcript.
You can create your owncustomization for analyzing the
transcript.
Those things are invaluable.
So we take the transcript theminute.
You know, we usually use Fathom, but there are others, meetgeek
(28:54):
, you know there's a ton of thembut we take that transcript
even though Fathom has its ownsummary.
That transcript, even thoughFathom has its own summary, we
don't use its summary.
We've created our own.
We analyze it so that weunderstand how well we did in
the sales presentation, becausethe GPT we created knows all of
our products and services and soit's going to analyze that call
(29:16):
and say where did we miss anopportunity?
It's also going to analyze thatcall and help us understand
where the prospect was coming on.
What were the what were arecoming from, what were some of
the subtle signals that we mayhave missed in the conversation?
It'll bring that all out to usand let us understand that sales
call better.
And then we take that same thing, we roll it into a different
GPT and that GPT generates asales proposal all right, based
(29:37):
on everything it knows aboutthat conversation, then we take
that one and we roll it into adifferent GPT.
And that GPT generates a salesproposal all right, based on
everything it knows about thatconversation.
Then we take that one and weroll it into a different GPT.
And that GPT now analyzes theprospect and guess what it does?
It makes that prospect apersona.
So we make it generate a diskprofile and an enneagram Look,
(29:58):
there goes my thumb again.
And so now it then knows howour well, theoretically it knows
how our prospect is thinkingand reacting.
And so then we tell the GPT tobecome that persona.
Instead of the theoreticalpersona we started with in
marketing, now we have theactual persona.
(30:19):
And so then we have thatpersona.
We have GPT assume thatpersonality and read our
proposal, and then we have itcome up with the objections that
the persona would come up withand the questions it had.
And then we have it rewrite theproposal to address that.
And we go through that cyclethree times until now we have a
proposal that's refined tohopefully beat every objection
(30:40):
that our prospect wouldpotentially have, and then we
move into another one that thengenerates an email that also
refines it based on the personathat we can send to the prospect
and say, hey, we got a proposalready.
You had all these issues, we'veaddressed them.
When can we meet, right?
So all of that stuff is done byAI, and that's thinking AI first
.
Right, that stuff is done by AIand that's thinking AI first
(31:01):
right.
That's.
That's not just saying, hey,how can I make this a really
fast copywriter and stuff abunch of boilerplate in there.
I've now got a proposal that isso customized and personalized
it's.
You know, you, you don't getthat old school agency world
that I used to have.
I used to have a whole lot ofboilerplate and I would just
have a summary of what theywanted.
(31:21):
And here's what we're going tosell you.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
Yeah, no, I really like that in that getting in the
mind of the prospect andfiguring out what those
questions might be based uponthe available data, and if
you're bringing actualinformation in from from the
(31:43):
meeting with them, uh, you'reputting in really quality data,
so you're not even guessing andand then and then answering
those objections prior to thecase.
Cause I, I think you know, whenI'm training my sales guys, um,
or consultants, I guess, isthat I think a lot of times they
(32:03):
, you know you got to get on thecall with the client and you
got to you got to understand andsee what those objections are.
Because you know, if they walkaway and you don't know what
their objections are and they'vegot all the information on the
proposal you know they're offmaking their own decision of you
know if you're the right fitfor them or not, or there's
(32:24):
questions that they have thatthey might not have answered or
solved, and so I would say thatthe success rate would go up
dramatically utilizing thatprocess you just described.
Speaker 3 (32:36):
Well, I mean, I always tell people marketing is
the new sales right.
They're intertwined now to adegree you've never seen before.
So with AI, we have the abilityto research our market and
create a persona that weactually use in marketing, as
(32:56):
opposed to, as an agency,charging somebody for a persona
that we don't ever look at again.
We can force AI to use thatpersona, but before a sales call
, in order to get on the callwith somebody, you can use AI to
really analyze that prospect.
So you can do account-basedmarketing to a whole new level.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
Yeah, you can use social media analysis to build a
profile based upon all thatinformation.
Speaker 3 (33:20):
Yeah, I can look at their Twitter feed.
I can look at their LinkedInprofile.
I can do a whole lot of otherstuff.
I can look at their bio.
That's on the website.
I can look at their websiteitself.
And then I can turn around andif my AI knows all the products
and services that I sell, I cansay what problems do they have
that I can potentially solve andthen build a profile around
(33:41):
that.
And now I've got a whole betterway to make that phone call
I've had.
You know, every now and then aspammer gets through to me and
wants to sell me something, andthen they go what do you do?
And I'm like you don't know.
You called me and you don'tknow what I do.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
They're just going down down the list or the
phone's ringing.
Speaker 3 (34:01):
There's no excuse for that now, right, there's no
excuse, right.
And so it gives you an openerthat like you've never had
before in terms of an advantageyou know exactly what their
business does and you can getthat research within 45 seconds
of the phone call and briefyourself really quickly with
some really powerful stuff.
Really quickly with some reallypowerful stuff.
(34:24):
But imagine starting your dayas a sales rep and you've
already got the 50 or 100 peopleyou're supposed to call today
and you've got a solid briefingon them before you make any dial
and it tells you exactly whatpains, problems and frustrations
they may have that you cansolve.
That's powerful.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
Yeah, I mean I used to do cold call selling and we
were calling 60 to 80 people aday and when LinkedIn came out
that was kind of like the firstiteration of it, of actually
knowing some kind of information.
Many times it was like callingpeople in a directory, right,
and you just had a name and atitle and you had to actually
(35:00):
build out who that was and theirbackground and and all the
persona so you have to hopethey're still alive and they
still work for the company yeah,oh, yeah, yeah, is that
information even correct?
like, right, and so they're, youknow, uh, and and then you know
, and I, I think everything'sreversing right.
So I was certainly of like, hey, you want to buy a chicken, you
(35:20):
want to buy a chicken, you wantto buy a chicken, you want to
buy a chicken, you want to buy achicken.
You're going to find someonethat wants to buy a chicken and
you're trying to reach as manypeople as possible.
So I started using digitalmarketing from a leverage
standpoint to, you know,customize a one to many message
and get that same message thathad a high response rate out to
as many people as possible.
Now we're going to the oppositeof this spectrum.
That well, I think it'sexpected, and certainly I get
(35:43):
annoyed, uh, even getting phonecalls or emails when it's not
personalized, right, and you cando personalization at scale.
Now, and, um, you know, I, I, Ithink that, um, that's where
everything's going to go, causeit's not.
If you're getting sold tosomething you actually need and
it's personalized and it'ssolving a problem for you, you
(36:04):
welcome it, but when it's justrandom kind of spaghetti on the
wall, that's when I think itgets annoying.
So I want to transition, if wehave time here, to.
We've talked about maybe thefront front end marketing on top
of the funnel content SEO.
We touched on that.
(36:25):
Then we touched on the salescomponent, which I think is
what's going to really makewaves, right, and, like some of
these AIs, too, that are doingthe outreach and that are like
so there's human checks andbalances in your process and I
think it's phenomenal.
I've seen these AIs that do theoutreach and can go back and
(36:49):
forth and have a conversationand it absolutely blows my mind.
If you don't have a complicatedsell, I think you're more
talking B2B and I think thatthere's so many industries that
are B2B that haven't takenadvantage of marketing like B2C
companies had.
I actually have another podcastthat I do in the oil and gas
(37:11):
space and I do it with theperson that founded the agency.
He's got the largest oil and gaspodcast.
It's called the Oil and GasSales and marketing podcast,
because you know everybody'soriginal and oil and gas um, and
and we actually talk about howto integrate, uh, you know,
marketing qualified leads andsales qualified leads, because a
lot of people think marketingis just, you know, uh, graphic
(37:33):
design and and uh, uh, promostuff right and and and how far
it's become and and how you canland hundred million dollar
contracts through Inbound Right,and I think that for the CMOs
that are open, it's starting toabsolutely change the game and I
(37:54):
think that there's so muchopportunity in that area to
address.
I would love to break thispodcast into a third here and
talk about those AI firstcultures of maybe some use cases
of a company that's integratedin AI into what they're doing
(38:15):
and how it can exponentiallyhelp them solve a problem or add
more value or do something inthe whole business case of like
a kind of a full stackintegration into the core DNA of
what they're doing.
Because I think that you knowsales is one thing and I think
(38:36):
there's probably right now, likeyou said, people saying that
they do it maybe a little bitmore lip service than you know.
Hey, we are.
This is integrated into ourworkflow and I would love to
hear some case studies andexamples about businesses that
have adapted that and kind oftransformed their business.
Speaker 3 (38:57):
Yeah, I can tell you about the people that have gone
through our training and howit's shifted the way they do,
and actually I've given a lot ofexamples of those in the book
that I just released,pre-released to the public.
It'll go on sale on Amazonsometime in March, but I
released it and the book'scalled In-Grain AI Strategy
(39:19):
Through Execution.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
Is that right?
Speaker 3 (39:21):
Yeah, yeah, and you can go to ingrainai and get a
copy of it for a while.
And I'm giving peoplepre-release copies, digital
copies, for free.
So if anybody hears this, theycan go grab that at ingrainai.
But what's happening is, as youknow, you've been playing
around with it, matthew, for awhile, right?
So you've been playing aroundwith ChatGPT for a couple of
(39:45):
years.
You probably played aroundprior to that with Copyai, or
Jarvis as it was called before.
It's Jasper, yeah, oh, yeah,right, so you've been around the
block, but you're like everyother marketer.
They're like oh wow, this isgoing to speed up my job.
So the majority of businessesgot their first taste of AI
(40:07):
through the marketing department, which is way different from
normal.
So now what you have to have isyou have to have other people
in the organization going.
Hmm, how can I use this?
Right?
Sales is a logical one, butthere are so many sales teams
that are far behind that theydon't realize they can use it.
Hr is another one.
(40:28):
Customer service is another one.
Finance is another one.
Legal is another one.
I could go on and on.
We teach skills tracks in eachof those disciplines, by the way
.
But go ahead.
You had a question, Matt.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
So the biggest challenge I've seen, depending
on the size of the company, isreal buying from the top.
Right, you're bringingsomething new in, right, and you
want to get it integrated.
Like I can tell you, I knowsome companies that are
acquiring other companies.
I can tell you, I know somecompanies that are acquiring
other companies and, like yousaid, I think they're just kind
(41:05):
of acquiring them to take outthe competition because they can
.
And I haven't seen a lot ofcompanies fully integrate those
teams and so a lot of times theyoperate kind of independently
and even their CRMs are notreally talking to each other
kind of independently and eventheir CRMs are not really
talking to each other.
So I think that from a, when Isay lip service, I kind of mean
(41:27):
yeah, you know, yeah, we'regoing to do ai, yeah, like ai is
going to change the game, butbut it's got to come from the
executive team down and sayingwe're, we're, you know what we
need to do, a whiteboardingsession and we need to, you know
, completely rethink how, how wedo this and and what are the
(41:49):
steps and where can we add ai tothis to help increase that
efficiency, because if you havesome champion right, that's
trying to pull everybody elsealong right and everybody's not
bought in and it's not beingkind of forced from the top down
.
I think the success rate isgoing to be mixed.
Speaker 3 (42:11):
Yeah, yeah.
So here's what we're seeing.
Um, okay, not to totally agemyself, but, um, I'm, um, I'm in
that age where the the peoplemy age are the ones that are now
running the company.
Okay, give or take 10 years,let's say all I'm stunned at how
(42:36):
many of them are like I don'tknow what this AI thing is.
And all of the younger peopleare like we need to use this.
So what we get is this influxof C-suiters coming to our
training and saying I need toget my head around this so that
I can filter this through theorganization and manage it.
So that's basically.
(42:56):
Step one is getting theleadership team together and
helping them understand.
You can go anywhere and getthese little trainings that
teach you why it's important andwhat it is that's useless.
You got to move beyond that.
You need to know how it canapply and how to do it and how
(43:18):
to speak about it at aconsistent level across the
organization.
And that's what we try to teach.
We try to just go okay, look,I'm not going to teach you the
history of LLMs.
I'm not going to teach you thehistory of machine learning.
I'm not going to teach youabout robotics.
What I am going to teach you todo is use AI tonight and do
something, okay, and and then,by the time you're finished with
(43:40):
our course, you will have builtan AI automation.
Well, not necessarily anautomation, you would have built
a GPT or a series of them.
So that's the capstone project,right?
I want them, I want theC-sweeter, to know what it feels
like to have an AI do somethingthat took some task of theirs,
(44:03):
that would take a week to do,and then all of a sudden have it
done in an hour, or somethingthat would take three hours to
do and have it done in about aminute and a half.
When they see that happen,their heads explode and they go
okay, now I got to get everybodyusing this.
But how do I get them to use itso that we have shareable,
scalable knowledge?
Well, that becomes a process.
(44:24):
Right, it's like in any otherorganization.
The way you scale is bydeveloping SOPs, standard
operating procedures that aredocumented.
Everybody if somebody leaves,somebody else can come in, know
the process, get onboarded andexecute with excellence.
Right, you have to do the samething with AI.
And again, you know, once theyunderstand that framework and
that foundation, then it startsto really scale and then you get
(44:49):
.
If you develop it right, thenyou get HR going to marketing
and going hey, you know how youwrote that job description over
here.
Can I take that prompt?
Because now I want to write ajob description that meets the
legal requirements for ourdocumentation inside, right, and
then you get somebody in legallike this is a whack incident
(45:09):
you were talking about.
You're in the oil and gas space.
One of the guys that wentthrough our training is a
chemical engineer or a chemist,I can't remember which.
He works for some of thelargest oil companies in the
world.
He develops chemicals for themto use in various rigs and other
things.
He applies for somewherebetween 15 and 20 patents a year
(45:31):
and he's got a softwareapplication that costs $15,000 a
year to help him create thesethese patents.
And then he hands it off to anattorney who does a patent
search to determine whether ornot there are conflicts with his
patent, and so they employ ateam of legal big business in
(45:52):
our training Okay, no-transcript, there are no conflicts.
(46:27):
And then he just hands it to hisattorney.
So he terminated a $15,000software application and instead
of spending $3,000 to $5,000per patent in legal fees, he's
paying now about $800 to $1,000in legal fees.
And when he hands off the briefto the attorney, they're like
whoa, no, I can absolutely seethat we built something like
(46:51):
that for content gap analysis.
Speaker 2 (46:52):
Absolutely, we built something like that for content
gap analysis.
But I think solving a biggerproblem with more zeros
associated with it, more value Ican absolutely see that kind of
scenario happen over and overagain.
So not just more productivity,but a cost savings based on the
(47:13):
current process of what they'recurrently doing.
Okay, so we're kind of gettingto the end here.
I want to just understand alittle bit more and I think for
the audience as well of kind ofyou know the service offering
you have from a corporatetraining standpoint.
I want to understand a littlebit more about maybe you know
(47:34):
you find a business that needsit, they probably hire you, and
how do you kind of graft yourorganization to that company?
Because you know a lot of thisstuff can't be implemented or
solved overnight, and so youknow there's a real process to
change mindset to get some ofthese workflows and SOPs
(47:56):
implemented.
So I'm curious, kind of okay,you have a great community, it
looks like you're doingcorporate training, you're
getting people into workshops,you have office hours.
I totally get all that.
I want to know a little bitmore about the direct engagement
right, they're like they wantit done with you, right, they
(48:17):
want it done with you to get itimplemented, kind of?
Speaker 3 (48:22):
how are you approaching that?
Yeah, good question.
So what we typically do is wewant one or more of the
executive team to go through ourbusiness leader skills track.
So we have a business leaderskills track.
So we have a business leaderskills track, one for sale, one
for marketing, one for legal,blah, blah, blah.
We got 10 different skillstracks that they go through, but
everybody goes through the samefoundational training and then
(48:43):
they go into their unique salestrack.
I want a business leader to gothrough the business leader
sales track first and then theywould engage us to help them
come up with a plan to push itthroughout the organization and
what they'll understand as theygo through that because it's
recorded.
They can kind of go at theirown leisure, so they don't have
(49:04):
to go suck out three days oftheir time and get to a power
webinar or a workshop.
They can go through it at theirown pace and now they have a
really good understanding.
And then they say, okay, now weneed your help to establish AI
governance.
Depending on how big they are,if it's a small company, it's a
different, different deal.
Then they want to getleadership Um, maybe the
(49:26):
management team, um, trained upon it.
You you have to have internalchampions, and the you know,
know this from being an SEO.
When we started our company, theone thing that we noticed is
that every business that wanteda website, the IT department
(49:47):
handled the website initially,and you're like just because
it's software doesn't mean itneeds to be in IT Right and
gradually, it loosened up andsaid OK, well, we'll let
marketing do it, because nowthere's WordPress, now there's a
UI, but we're still going tocontrol the engine.
We'll let you play around withthe UI.
Speaker 2 (50:09):
It's a security thing , right, and that's security
first.
And so we've developedworkarounds to help get a better
action.
Yeah, everybody kind of does,and that's what's happening now
right In these organizations.
Speaker 3 (50:20):
The workaround is the worker goes in and logs into
their own personal account andnow you have security risks.
So we want to.
What we want to try to do iscreate AI governance that has
some rules but a lot ofguidelines, and we want to have
oversight that's not handcuffingbut empowering.
So I don't really want IToverseeing AI governance.
(50:43):
I want them having a voice init.
But what I do want in AIgovernance is somebody who is an
innovator and a power user whoreally gets the impact, because
it has to move fast.
So you have to have the rightperson overseeing it, and so we
teach people what that lookslike.
I go with that in great detailin the book.
All right.
(51:04):
So now, once we got AIoversight in the right hands,
with the right mindset, now Ican get all the people on board
and they actually get excitedwhen they go oh, this is going
to make my job easier.
This is so amazing, right.
And so now what they've seen ispeople really get excited about
(51:25):
learning it, about executing it, and, if you structure it the
right way, they share amongstthemselves instead of compete
with themselves.
They share that knowledge andthat expertise.
And that's when you start toget this AI first thinking.
And again, AI first thinking isnot just how do I get it to
(51:46):
write a blog post, it is how doI get it to do?
How do I think about going toAI first to get my idea or my
question answered, instead ofbugging my boss or instead of
doing my old school research,how do I just ask ChatGPT a
better question?
(52:07):
And then, if you're in sales,the stuff that you can do now
with multimodal AI is alsoinsane.
You know you were talking aboutoutbound sales calls.
You could like salesai.
You can, for I think it's$2,500 a month.
You can get an outbound callingAI agent that will replace
(52:29):
three outbound appointmentsetters and you could use it for
setting appointments or youcould use it for just
discovering who the decisionmaker is.
You could use it for a lot ofthings.
You could build your own also,but the reporting tools inside
of salesai are pretty, prettyslick.
We had him come talk to ourmastermind.
It's cool stuff.
But imagine in your ownorganization when you create
(52:53):
that, that GPT.
You can just do this with a GPT.
You don't even have to go outand build an agent for this.
But if you build a GPT thatunderstands all your sales
materials and all that stuff,you can now use your phone and
have an oral conversation withthat GPT as a role-playing agent
.
I mean, you can't quite clonethat guy's voice and put it in
(53:18):
the GPT yet If you wanted tospend some money, you could
build an agent.
Speaker 2 (53:22):
You could do a lot of that.
Yeah, yeah, I mean, anything'spossible.
Speaker 3 (53:26):
Yeah, a cheap way is to just do a chat, GPT.
But yeah, you can do that.
It's amazing.
Speaker 2 (53:32):
Well, I mean, when I went into sales role.
It's amazing.
Well, I mean, that's when Iwent into sales role.
Playing was a huge part of it,right, and AI could analyze what
you're saying, how yourresponse rates are, what you
should use in response.
I mean, I can see so manyapplications as an adjunct, not
just a replacement, with AI.
So, completely, this has justbeen great.
(53:54):
This has been reallyfascinating.
John InGrainai, how do peopleget in touch with you if they
want to learn more?
Join the community?
Get a copy of the book.
Speaker 3 (54:06):
Sure, yeah, I mean you can go to InGrainai and you
can join the community.
I think all you have to do toreally join the community is
just request a copy of the book.
For now you can.
You can join our mastermindgroup.
You can catch me on LinkedIn Ithink I'm JW Munsell on LinkedIn
or or go to the other corporatewebsite, which is bazooka B I Z
(54:28):
Z U K acom.
That's where we do all thecorporate training and stuff.
Speaker 2 (54:32):
So Well, I don't know about this one, what is called
bazooka?
Speaker 3 (54:36):
yeah, b-i-z-z-u-k-a dot com.
Yeah, that's the company thatwe've had for 20 plus years now
very cool, all right.
Speaker 2 (54:48):
Well, um, I think this was an absolutely
fascinating conversation.
Um, I usually ask people what'sone unknown secret of internet
marketing that you want to leavethe audience with?
Speaker 3 (55:03):
An unknown secret man .
I don't have an unknown secretbecause I haven't figured it out
yet.
I don't have an unknown secretbecause I haven't figured it out
yet.
The unknown secret to me isgoing to be figuring out what's
the new SEO.
To get me at the top ofperplexity, you know, without
(55:24):
going through all kinds ofgymnastics, you know, I've seen
other trainers go and illustratehow they can key in all this
stuff and all of a sudden theirwebsite comes up and I'm like,
yeah, that's because you wroteseven paragraphs.
You know, I want to know how toreally build the fly trap, you
know, for the new SEO, which isgoing to be all LLM based.
(55:50):
But I don't have that unlockedyet.
Speaker 2 (55:53):
I'm working on it.
Yeah, no, so we can talk alittle bit more offline.
I actually that's been whereour focus has been right.
So certainly, ai agents are alittle bit newer, but over the
last 18 months, that was one ofthe first things that clients
started asking and we werecurious ourself is things that
(56:15):
clients started asking and wewere curious ourself is okay,
there's going to be one answertypically Now Perplexity.
Their model's a little bitdifferent.
Right, they're pushing outtheir own affiliate links, which
is pretty amazing from arevenue standpoint and there's
definitely some balancing actissues with it that I think
people have.
But they're monetizing theselinks, um, and it's quite
(56:36):
dramatic based on the number ofsearches they have, on how many
affiliate links they can pushout.
But uh, I had a client.
Uh, we've, we've.
We get about probably two leadsa week that are coming through.
They found us through chat GBTor one of the other language
models, and one of our biggestclients actually this was this
(56:57):
was probably about a year ago umand uh, you know, we were, we
were working on chat gbt and wewere working on ranking in chat
gbt and and a lot of the thingsthat we were doing are really
just going back to thefundamentals and doing really
good SEO.
And they called in and theysaid and they wanted to get me
(57:21):
on the call, and so thesalesperson brought me in.
He said hey, the only reason Iam talking to y'all is I was
searching for the top AI SEOcompany in Perplexity, and this
was at the time.
I'm not sure right now and theysaid y'all came up and my first
(57:43):
question at the time was like,what is Perplexity?
Speaker 3 (57:49):
Unconscious competence is what we call that
you don't even know how good,you are.
Speaker 2 (57:54):
And so you know that you know I was being honest,
like I I'm pretty uh,transparent as far as what, what
, what I know, what I don't know, and what we can do, and uh,
and so we started thatconversation and at a certain
point he goes, I feel like Iknow you or heard your voice
before, whatever.
And and then I was like, well,maybe you listen to the podcast,
(58:17):
you know, I'll just kind ofthrow it out there.
And he goes, what's it called?
And he's searching.
He says, oh my gosh, I know you.
He's like you know, and he'slike, yeah, I've listened to the
podcast, and so that.
And then we close that deal umyou know, so there's kind of
that expertise, authority, trustand, and certainly ai got us in
the game right, but the humanelement pulled it all the way
(58:41):
through to close the deal and Ithink there's going to be a lot
of that kind of augmented userthat's going to be able to be
superhuman and be, able toleverage a lot of these skill
sets and I think the biggestthing that's going to slow
people back is what you'retalking about is the corporate
(59:02):
governance of really adopting itand getting it implemented.
That's what I've seen.
The fastest thing to kill agreat new idea in a in a big in
a big company is it's it's justnot getting to buy it.
You know.
Speaker 3 (59:19):
Yeah, true, oh, I will give you one secret.
Okay, now that I think about it.
So this is this is actually thequestion that I ask all of our
prospects at the beginning ofthe call, of the discovery call,
and it's and I even tell themthis is a trick question.
So I want you to pay attentionto how I ask the question and I
(59:42):
said 90% of the people get theanswer wrong.
So let's see how you do.
And the question is this whatare the top three problems you
solve for your customer?
Okay, so I'll repeat it onemore time what are the top three
problems you solve for yourcustomer?
And what they typically comeback with is the top three
products they sell to theircustomer.
(01:00:02):
The key is knowing what problemyou solve and being able to
articulate it as a problem.
And when you know how toarticulate the problem in your
prospect's mind that you solve,that unlocks your marketing.
That's the secret.
If you don't know how toarticulate the problem, then
(01:00:24):
you're selling a product oryou're selling benefits, or
you're selling features.
The minute you understand howto articulate the problem and
what's going on in yourprospect's mind in terms of
pains and frustrations, now, allof a sudden, you've got a shot
at a lot of other things, right,that's.
That's my, my top secret forthe day.
Speaker 2 (01:00:43):
I love it.
I think that that is what I'mseeing too, and this is a good
place to end.
It is the AI is only good asgood as the operator and the
knowledge in the operator's headon how to get to the right
answer and what good looks likebased on what you're saying.
Until you train those verycustomized agents that know
(01:01:12):
you've inputted all thatinformation, that will give you
the right answer.
Right, but to just take thegeneral AI to ask it, unless you
know what you're trying to getto and what that good
copywriting or whatever it islooks like, you're only as good
as the operator you're.
Speaker 3 (01:01:36):
You're only as good as the operator, right?
Yeah, so yeah.
And then the key is to cloneyour knowledge into the ai, and
that's where you really aregoing to crush it.
Right, because when ai canrecall your ideas faster than
you can, you're dominating yeah,no, I love it.
Speaker 2 (01:01:49):
I love john.
All right, um, everyone.
Uh, hopefully you enjoyed thisas well.
That's why we do this toconnect with people and bring in
great minds that are addressingproblems in the industry from a
different approach.
I don't have all the answers.
I'm constantly learning andeveryone's going on this journey
(01:02:11):
with me, and this was great.
If you are looking to grow yourbusiness, currently right with
the largest, most powerful toolon the planet, which is the
internet, and then we canaugment AI to that, reach out to
EWR for more revenue in yourbusiness.
We built a proven marketingsystem that generates you leads
(01:02:35):
online.
Until the next time, my name isMatt Bertram.
Bye, bye for now.
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