November 7, 2024 • 31 mins
Kevin and Casey tackle Tay Zonday’s viral opus. Does Zonday belong among Dante, Chaucer, Whitman or Charlie, Bit My, Finger.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Give it a chance, Give it a chance, Give it
a chance. Good morning, give it a chance, Give it
a chance, Give it a chance, give it a chance.
Good morning. Give it you want to give it a chance,
give it a chance, Give it a chance. Just welcome
tiny chancers, chancers.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Wasn't any chance port. This is this pot is actually
sponsored by chance Port.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Great if it was Chanceport, that was a that was big.
Lisa still has her Chanceport. My wife, Lisa has her
Chanceport from like growing up. We still use it. Well,
good use it, but we keep it around.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Well, that's using it. That's a kind of using it.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
That's true.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Can you hear me now? Can you hear me? Now?
That's cool? If I put a little I mean i'd
be able to see. I've been trying some new stuff
audio wized tech wise. But anyway, I'm just like putting
my hands in front of the mic. Anyway, let's get
back to the subject at hand, Chanceport Dunco and go jeans. Well,
waity chances hold on Jenko jeans. That's like chocolate rain.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Right, Oh wow, yeah it did sound like that. I
know it is. Today's song is chocolate rain. Actually that
would be great.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Yo, I would be thrilled to give that a chance.
I think there's a lot there by.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
The way, let's do it. Let's let's just say, just
to make all this tangent like, let's just do it.
There's no reason we can't, Okay. I mean I had
a song on deck, but we just went from Jenk
from JanSport to Jenko Jeans to you doing an impression
of chocolate rain. And now that's gonna be our song.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Is little Jenko Jeans.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
That's by Taison Day.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
It's Tay and you could do his name to it too,
Taison Day.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
I'm gonna be honest with you, I don't it says
right now. I just cueued it up. It's four minutes
and fifty three seconds. I don't think I've ever watched
or listened to this entire video.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Oh I'm so happy to tell you that I have
probably watched all of it in the in the dozens.
I mean it's cheaper by the dozens, no dowdy, but
I definitely think I've watched it in the doz.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Well. This is a strange category because it's like his intention,
I think was to be serious, and then it was
sort of taken as like a joke and then like
memed early meme and then like.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Very early me sort of like the beginning of a
certain kind of that as a thing the way I
think he was like kind of he was there pretty
early for sure.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
I'm excited for this. Wow, I'm so excited. All right,
where are you looking?
Speaker 2 (02:36):
You? Are you looking on? Are you looking on a
streaming service? Or are you looking on?
Speaker 1 (02:39):
I went to YouTube and I see Chocolate Ran original song.
I love when people put original song, yeah you know,
or like I also love when people put Vivo and
then they're not even their channel for Vivo was Okay,
here we go. Ready, everybody answers, listen and we'll be
right back. It's your leaders control tough. LIT mean.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Now, I don't look I recognize. I think we talked
about this on an episode before. I don't mean to sound,
I really don't mean to sound. There's this film critic
I don't know if he's still writing this guy armand
d White. And when there was still like weeklies, all weeklies,
you know, the Village Voice, the New York Press, all
that stuff, which still exists in some places a little bit,
(03:27):
but used to obviously be a ubiquity kind of before
the Internet sort of killed it. He was a film
critic for the New York Press, and he was like
a well known contrarian, and it was like is it
a bit does he really think this? Like he would
give every movie that we would presume was like a
critic Darling Oscar bait movie, he would basically always like
(03:47):
eviscerate them. He would put on his like end of
year list. You know. It would be stuff like you know,
things that were just like you know what was that
Jim Carrey movie with the the for Fairly Brothers, Me
and myself and Irene things like you know what I mean.
It would be like, yeah, so I don't want to
be arm and white. I'm not trying to be a
contrarian at all costs. I will just say this song
(04:10):
is to me. It's actually like wildly easy to give
a chancey in a variety of directions.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
I've never had a bigger one eighty in my life.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
It's really wild and I would love we can start
wherever you want. I will just say, there's also a
fascinating contextualization of It's fine. I think Weezer made a
video with a bunch of these people maybe.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
For like yes, pork and beans. I believe it was right, and.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
I think it was sort of like maybe even him
identifying to some extent with like the memeification of a
particular kind of it's riding a line where you're like,
this dude is clearly this song is actually like a
kind of relentless racial critique protest song.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
One hundred percent. Yeah, it's powerful, it's it's so. I again,
I want to just say I never heard this song,
like I always knew the meme, and I think I
remember watching a few snippets of Chocolate Rain and thinking
it was like kind of a funny thing. There's nothing
really funny about this, Like, in fact, it's it's a
flex it's amazing. You might be like, all he says
(05:13):
chocolate rain two hundred times, but the other things he
says in between each chocolate rain, that's almost like what
a brilliant juxtaposition to even do that, And the fact
that it became this comical meme doesn't make any sense.
I mean, actually it like showcases what our society is,
which is like, right, people don't scratch the service and
(05:33):
they just look at ha haha, chocolate rain. Chocolate rain.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Well and I feel like that's part of the kind
of complexity to me of watching it now, is like
he also by doing certain things like that parenthetical I
move away from the mic while I sing, and if
you haven't watched the video, I invite you to watch that.
And then the way he kind of like floats away
at the very end, he like looks at the camera
(05:56):
and like goes like yes, that indicates that that is
kind of comedic or kind of like you can understand
how this became.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
It's an open mic guy, right, like you ever go
to an open mic and then there's a guy that's
like saying, He's like this song's for you know whatever,
Hurricane Katrina. And then it's so sincere that even though
the message is like trying to do good, it's overly sincere,
and like everything become it's a church laugh. Everything becomes
comical because what he's talking about is so important.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Well, And I think the thing that's a little complex
about for lack of a better word, I don't there's
a word I'm looking for that's not exactly complex. The
thing that's a little opaque about it is to what
degree is he trying to do both? Because it is
like that is actually like a very dexterous piano figure
he's playing, and he goes to lengths to show you
that he's playing it. It's also repeated with slight variations
(06:51):
in the bass note based placements for five minutes.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
That's my anti chancy as well, Yes.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
And I think that's part of what. So what I'm
curious about is like he's doing these things that are
a little bit like a bit with the like I
move away from the mic while I'm breathing, floating off
at the very end of the song, and also being
like I'm going to write this song. It's kind of
a very nuanced and sort of comprehensive take on in
two thousand and seven, and a lot of that stuff
(07:19):
feels every bit is prevalent right now, if not more so.
I could, you know, venture to make a bunch of
guesses about exactly what he means in each particular part.
Some of it's pretty straightforward linguistically, some of it you
could like pick apart. Also, he called it chocolate rain,
and he says the phrase forty five thousand times over
(07:40):
the same piano figure and does those little things, so
it is a little bit like and then maybe this
is unfair, but in the seventeen years since, like I
have two friends who got me a cameo of him
saying something to me at an elevator. Yes, because I'm
so on the record about my like fascinating with this,
(08:01):
and you know, if you look at the rest of
his channel, he is now like a guy who's like
done a bunch of working out, wears tight T shirts,
exists in a space like cameo, and so it is
a little bit like, now, is that about Taizon Day?
Is that about the nature of you know, flickle frying
pan celebrity? Is that about all of It's in this
weird stew that I can't completely excavate to too satisfaction.
(08:23):
But what I do know is like what's actually going
on in this song is like you said, a flex,
this dude is playing a pretty dexterous piano part and
kind of like offering a Civix lesson while doing it
in a way that's like if it's also we need
to address his voice is yes, sort of like the
crash Test Dummies guy or something like, it's this weird
(08:47):
kind of like oh, like it's a deep, basy almost
like musical theater or something.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Especially at that time. So I will say that right now,
in culture and like on the internet, you get so
many different types of people and obviously like there's still
like a pop cream at the top that like is
you know Ariana Grande's that like, are you're quintessential the
same singer that's always been famous, Yes, the same ability.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
Sabrina Carpenter and who Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
But underneath that a lot of this has risen up
on through in a culture, a person who has this
voice can breakthrough and find an audience, and that's more
now than ever. Right, Like, it was an anomaly to
have a crash Test dummies, you know, if you don't know,
it's like wounds. There was this kid and the nineties
was good at that too, and this guy found that.
(09:37):
But I think through like a an ironic.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Well totally, and a critical difference between the two is
that crash Test Dummies were signed to a major, multinational,
corporate record label. This guy found this putting up a
video on YouTube that a bunch of people just shared
with one another and were like, Yeo, have you seen
this insane thing? I don't know how many people have
(10:01):
really zoned in on the lyrics, I will say this
is like that is I think where like your experience
of this song actually changes pretty dramatically, as if you're
actually like, wait, what is he saying between chocolate rains
and then.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
Even chocolate rain? Like even just what chocolate rain means?
I never thought about or of course not because it's
ever saying a song like I've only heard in small things,
So I always thought it was like random internet chocolate rain.
But it's it's like, I mean, you know, if you
could extrapolate in a couple of different directions, but one
in one of them, which is like the struggle of
(10:38):
you know, Black Americans, and the rain is that of
like you know, to symbolize like the sadness that it
falls upon and like that you have to you know,
survive through it. You know, there's this like iconography of it.
It's really what but it comes off as chocolate rain.
It's so weird, right.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
Talks rain every February we washed no ways. What's funny
is actually as a writing device, he like read the
nature of the use of that rain motif changes multiple
times throughout the song, but most often you're right, I
(11:24):
hear it in the like it's like that Book of Revelation,
A hard rain's gonna fall like that kind of rain,
you know, or like credence rain, like who's gonna I
wonder who'll stop the rain? Have you ever seen the rain?
Is like this kind of like those people were singing
it about Dylan and Creeden's Clearwater in the sixties. It's
like the onset of the civil rights movement, and it's
(11:46):
like Vietnam, these things that are cataclysms. And so if
you're singing about like structural institutional racism, that qualifies and
certainly like also if you're unsure how he means it,
then there's these moments where says things like, you know,
February in America, what is February Black History Month? And
he says, you know, every February washed away, like oh,
(12:08):
we've done our duty, we paid attention to this and
you know whatever, and now you know whatever, we don't
have to get too far field. Incidentally, there are plenty
of people that don't even want that to exist. That's
too much so and all it is is like a
cursory gesture at best. And he talks about this. This
makes me think about I can't believe I'm doing a
Tason Dave Bob Dylan thing. But yeah, it's it's like,
(12:31):
that's like the lonesome death of Hattie Carrol. The ladder
of law knows no top and no bottom. And he's
like talking about the rigged justice system between like the
maid that the black maid that this rich white guy kills.
That's this Dylan song from nineteen sixty four. Tayzon Day
spends a whole verse in this song as fart and
so far as there are verses, it's just a screed.
(12:52):
But at one point he's talking about like the judge
and jury say swear it's not the face he says
at one point, and he talks about the different ways
justice is meted out the way I'm like, if you
really lock into it, it's actually like completely crazy. But
then also it was delivered in this way. Sure, like
I've never heard him talk about this, but I know
(13:12):
he's like on cameo and like was happy to be
in that Weezer video. So it's like a complex thing
is going on.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Oh for sure, I mean, and I completely agree that
this is delivered slightly different. It is a it's an
incredible protest song and in fact, a lot of protest
music does repeat like a lot of protests. Oh yeah,
a chance over and over again. So like the difference
between like silence is violence and like chocolate rain is
that far? It's just that.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
No, it's an earworm kind of thing, a rhythmic earworm
kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
Yeah, but if I'm going anti chancy, it's like.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
You gotta go anti chancy at some point in case.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
It's a lot of repetition, right, it's a lot of
I think even the fact that he kind of like
in the video comes back to like clear his throat
away from the mic, and he does it so many times,
like everything is becomes comedic. But even protest music is
can become comedic after a while, right, Like when you
know you go far away from it, it sometimes is like.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
Oh my god, it's that what is that? I mean,
these are a bunch of complicated people at this point
in our culture's history. But it makes me think of
that what was that movie Get him to the Greek
and that Russell Brand character that's like the like fading
rock star and you see that he has just made
this video. He's like a white, rich British dude and
he's made this video called African Child. That's kind of
(14:32):
been like the end of his success, and it's like
the white Savior thing and he's dancing like yeah. The
reason that stuff is a trope in entertainment is because
it is often ludicrous, sanctimonious, tone deaf, and it is
delivered in a way that is instantly self satirizing.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
And so remember the Imagine, Like during the Imagine, on
the whole they had so much positive, like good intent,
it was edited poorly, like that whole thing. Their message
is sincere, but it comes off so bad.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
It's certainly in April of twenty twenty, when it was
like a bunch of like the richest, most famous people
in America in their houses singing lines while people are like,
you know, dying with COVID end mass was a little
bit like whoops, you know, And I think, you know,
I'd like to think the Taison Day that wrote Chocolate
(15:26):
Rain would be able to write something kind of pretty
stellar and insightful about that too. Also, he says at
one point turn that it's not just a racial critique,
it's an economic class critique. He says at one point
turn that body into GDP.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
Yes, that's insane.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
That's insane.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
There's like some really impressive imagery and like wordplay and
a lot of it. It's wild even just like stuff
like but test scores are how much the parents make yes? Yes,
it's crazy like that a lot of it. It's really
he just like drops it on you and doesn't explore it,
which is you might be like, well, he's just saying
He's just like he wrote down a bunch of lines
(16:06):
and said them and he doesn't really explore what that means.
But I like that, I actually really like.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
And also if he explored, what if he was like,
maybe if there was an accompanying essay where he was like,
Just to be clear, chocolate rain is meant to be
a metaphor for structural institutional racism, not just in America
but across the world. That's why I touch on riots
in France and the cast system in Mumbai. You'd probably
be like, oh, you know what I mean, Like, I
get it, I know how we are and we like
(16:33):
you don't really Then you'd be like, well, I don't
want to watch this anymore because I just thought this
was like funny.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
But there are people and this is the beauty of it, right,
this this gets memed. Yeah, and there's probably somebody who
watched it and was like, that's so funny, but wait,
what is this thing about Mumbai?
Speaker 2 (16:48):
Yeah? And then suddenly they're like, people, are you and
I we're doing this right now right now? Yes?
Speaker 1 (16:53):
Right, yes, yeah, but like I like, you know, thankfully,
like not thankfully, but like we know a lot of this, right,
But there were probably kids. And that's sometimes the best
thing about art is like when it it just kind
of gets in there, like like a protest song you
never even knew was a protest song.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Right.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
We've talked about like Born in the USA, and we've
talked about some of these like tunes that that people
don't realize are you know that are actually that have
a message? This one's interesting because it is overtly here's
the message, But it's not like the Black Eyed p
is like where is the love? Whereas yeah, we definitely
we're serious to y'all. That might be a good one
(17:32):
to bring back for another time.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
By the way, uhmark that that's it started the original version. Yeah,
we could do. I mean, it depends how long we
want this podcast to exist. But I do feel like
when well, the thing about sorry slight cul de sac.
This kind of connects to our lifestyles of the rich
and famous episode. The thing about something like where is
(17:54):
the Love is that there's a part of that that
wants to be like, let's get serious about nothing. There's
like a vacancy in the middle of where that song
is not that is not. No one's gonna mistake that
for the lonesome death of Hattie Carroll anytime soon, dam
and I even mistake it for like we are the world,
you know, Like there's what's going on in the middle
(18:15):
of that song is like that's a certain genre of
protest music that is actually protesting nothing. It is actually
like wearing the clothes of something like that for a
stab at authenticity. But what's happening inside of it is
like if you like it's like a broken clock or
something like if you got in there, you'd be like,
(18:35):
oh wait, there's actually the reason this clock doesn't work
is because there's nothing inside of it. It's like a
model home or whatever. But yeah, I feel like something
like this also again, and this is again maybe like
getting into something super structural about like the nature of
memified fame or even fame at all. I don't know,
is like he also delivers it. The part of why
(18:58):
it doesn't totally connect as whatever it is is because
it's just a single mid let range shot of a
man standing singing this song, not looking into the camera
every once in a while, moving away from the camera
to breathe every once in a while. There's an overhead
shot of him playing piano, and that's it for five minutes.
(19:19):
And there's something in it that's like, is this Andy Kaufman? Like?
Does this guy know exactly what he's doing? Is this like?
And then you're like, I think the benefit of seventeen
years of perspective is like, maybe Andy Coffin would have
been if he was alive now and working in the
current climate, maybe he would have also been somebody who
(19:40):
it was like, maybe he would have been revealed to
have just been another like YouTube personality also or something.
I don't know. Maybe maybe we can we over I
have no idea. That's an interesting thought experiment, like was
he a performance artist or was he a total hack?
Or was he I tend to think there was a
lot going on there. Also, you could make the claim
if you just saw chocolate rain once, you'd be like,
(20:03):
is this like brilliant performance art or twenty twenty four,
You're like, can you get a cameo from this guy
in an elevator being like GeV divine yes? Or is
all of that true at the same time.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
Yeah, let's explore that, right, because I do think that
sometimes this happens, probably a lot of people who kind
of get famous out of nowhere, especially like this sort
of ironic to a girl, right, A lot of that, right,
And this is interesting because your message was so sincere
and then like people are like kind of laughing, not
(20:36):
necessarily with you, you.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Know, definitely not I'm sure many people were laughing at yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
And then he sort of, you know, does this you know,
weeds your video or other probably things or just leans
into the culture of that meme. I don't really fault
him for it. I think it's just what anyone would do.
And I bet you he has other songs that he
probably found an audience that is not laughing, So I
give him. It's easy to write him off for doing
(21:04):
something like that, right, But it's pretty savvy, right, and
I think a lot of people do that. Hawk too
is a great example, because like I think she's going
to be like she's going to replace Hoda on the
on the Today Show, like in the way that our
culture is going. Yeah, you know what I mean. Yeah,
I just found out today that Hoda is leaving.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
I just saw too. It was breaking news, breaking news
amidst everything else insane that's happening in the world today.
But when I get that sometimes I'm like, hey, guys,
even the paper of Record, let's examine what we mean
when we say breaking news. But I guess that's a
big deal in the culture.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
Now going back to good Charlotte.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Poor good Charlotte, just catching strays. It's always I mean, look,
it's deserted.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
But yeah, like I don't know, like if they they
have this song and we knew going into it that
they are dating these models and they live in basically mansions,
and then they say, like, you know, how dare you like,
let's rob those mansions?
Speaker 2 (22:13):
Right? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (22:14):
But then if they afterwards echo or if like they
get sponsored by Abercrombie and Fitch or something and they
do that, they're bringing punk to Abercrombie and Fitch, Right, Yeah,
is that allowed? Right? If we're giving if we're giving
Tay a pass, are we giving everyone a pass? And
we don't. We usually don't, meaning you and me or
the culture, you and me, you and me.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
I feel like the thing is this for me, I
don't know what you know, one can say what is
objectively the thing, because that's different for everybody. But the
thing for me is that I get that some of
my thought processes about stuff like this are both they're
kind of relics at this point. They're a little antiquated.
At this point, I think we thoroughly live in a
(22:54):
post for instance, like look, one argument about a guy
like Taizon Day again, like in contrast to something that
was like a novelty act on a major corporate record label,
is that he built whatever the hell this is, ostensibly
by himself with the great luck of algorithmic you know aid.
But he didn't. This wasn't something that like whatever money
(23:17):
he's made from this, and whatever corporate involvement he has
had or not had from this came as afterwards. It
wasn't upfront. And so I mean, there is something about
that that is like of its time and a little
bit like inverted. There's like, you know, something you could
even call vaguely punk rock about that. It's definitely to
thine own self be true. But I would also say
(23:40):
I think we live in it. Like you know, I
read something recently that was really I thought very interesting
and cool about like the basically like the death of
the word indie meaning anything like it began somewhere in
the mid two thousandth and it basically in the mid
two thousands became like a reference to a certain sensibility, right,
(24:01):
not like an independently created, funded, executed, delivered work of
art or entertainment, which is literally what indie meant at
a time was independent of certain systems. That is no
longer what anybody thinks when they mean that indie means
like people like you were, like whatever, certain hairstyles, certain, yes, exactly,
(24:22):
And so basically with that, I think what has also
come is like, I know, there's a musician I admire
a great deal, And part of what I admired about
them at a certain point was that they were pretty
like successful but also committed to a certain kind of
like independent existence and we're doing very well by any
sort of objective metric. And then at some point what
(24:44):
was kind of unfortunate I thought was that they're part
of it became a little bit like literally in some
interview they made some reference to like if I could
go back and change anything, I would have just said
yes every time I made all the money I could
have made. It's basically this like don't eat the player,
hate the game, don't hat the sin or hate the sin,
like got to get your bag. And I'm not going
to stand there and tell anybody that that's not the right.
(25:07):
I don't know that there. I don't know one. This
is not sainthood. We live in an economic system, and
we live in a system of social mobility, or a
supposed social mobility, but it's like sort of a system
of you want to be visible and you want to
be making money. And if you're in this thing, like
I get it. It's kind of like someone like me
who's trying to resume. Yeah, and if you're like trying
(25:29):
to do it without doing it, there's an argument that
that's like actually like really naive and self defeating. But
there is something to me about No, do I think
it's wrong that he took all the opportunities that came
to him through a funny video that he put up
on or whether he thought it was funny or not,
of course not, but I also I'm allowed to think
to understand why any of us make the decisions we make,
(25:53):
and I'm also allowed to find it a little sad.
Like I think those two things at the same time.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
We're talking about two things, right, Like there's sort of
a sellout. There's the fact that I think sellout culture
is gone, or like just even the idea of like
people being bummed when people sell out, like that doesn't
exist anymore.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
Right, not the same way, certainly not.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
I don't think at all. I think there are still
people holding on to, like, you know, an idea of
what something is, and then when somebody crosses into something
where they're making a lot of money, people are like
sell out. But I don't think there's many people even
do that at all anymore. Sure, maybe a generation still
holds onto it. But then there's also, yeah, you're right,
there's this thing of I also, yeah, you're right, Like
there's just like stay in your lane or like the
(26:35):
thing that you set out to do, you're doing the
opposite of right.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
I'm trying to complicate it.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
No, because that's even a third thing, which is like
there are people who nowadays it's like there was a
time that it.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
Was like everybody wants to talk again something, Yeah, like
you should stick.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
With wrapping and not doing podcasts.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
Right.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
No, there was a time that people were like, stay
in your lane, don't be a jack of all trades, right,
you know, Like, but now it's like it's it seemsdvantageous
to do too much.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
I saw something amazing that Rob Schnaff record producer said
to me recently, which was for like a Seinfeld meme,
and it was like every musician now reckoning with the
fact that they're supposed to be like a marketing mogul
and a content producer and a social media expert. And
it was Jerry and George and the diner and they're
having some one of their endless, minutia obsessed nonsense conversations
(27:30):
and Jerry just like pushes back from the table and
he's like, what is this? What even is this? What
lives are we living?
Speaker 1 (27:37):
You know?
Speaker 2 (27:39):
And that's the thing, No, right you are. You are encouraged,
And how could you judge people for wanting to like
be stable, successful, visible, secure in the culture Taizon Day
or anybody else. At the same time, I do reserve
the right to feel like, you know, it's like funny.
(27:59):
It's like there's these certain like stuff. I could go
in a million different directions about this, but it's like,
there are a lot of things that I totally understand
from a practical pragmatic and have to and you accept
as part of just like how things work. But also
if you step back from them or not even that far,
you're like, well, I'm still allowed to think that's like
a mega bummer that those are the terms of engagement
(28:21):
and that doesn't mean like, look, if you're somebody like
this and you make this video and hundreds of millions
of times this video is viewed, and what that enables
you to do is like get on the radar. If
someone like a Rivers Cuomo to wants to put you
in a song with a bunch of people who are
like you, it's kind of like this like we're in
on the joke kind of thing. You know, there's some
(28:42):
empowerment in that. And also if what it allows you
to do is like every once in a while go
on these weird branded tours or be it a corporate event,
or have someone like my friends be like, hey, we'll
pay this guy fifty bucks to say like happy birthday
to Kevin, How in the world could you? But if
you get into what he's talking about in the thing
that exploded it, it's kind of a mind fuck. Actually,
(29:03):
you're just kind of like, what the fuck? There's a
lot there, as I guess that would be my ultimate chance,
is that there's so much more in this than you
would just get from being like, ok itd rain. And
also you can get plenty from that too, worse than shouting,
worse than full of nignaus.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
Wow, that's a good one. That's a good crash. You've
been working on it. So I didn't know fiventeen years
about you. I didn't know that you were so big
into Tay.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
I don't know what it is. It's I find it
a fascinating piece of epemera, Like it is a crazy
thing to me, soup to nuts. Everything about this is
just like endless fascination.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
Is it because you see yourself in him? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (29:43):
I see myself. I mean honestly, it's like I see
myself in I see myself and most of the artists
we talk about on this show. I see myself in Tay.
I see myself in you know. I'm Madley and angry
with you.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
I didn't realize that we would go in this story.
I mean, obviously, this whole episode was such a fun
surprise because I you know, you know, I had a
song in the chamber, locked loaded, ready to shoot, and
then I like that we just followed this direction. It's
it's very fun and surprising.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
I want to keep you on your toes case. I
want to bring something to this exchange. All the feedback
I get out on the road and thank you to
the chancers that come to the shows. I'm not a joke.
I'm not joking. People come up every show now and
talk about the podcast, which is amazing, but all the
feedback is like, dude, your garbage, you suck your subs
Ondaie Casey's great, You're like posts on Dae and I'm like,
I know, I know, I'm trying to keep all my
(30:32):
eyes toes. All right, look, we got a minute left
to wrap this up.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
Okay, So Taison Day, Yeah, Taison Day is Rage against
the Machine, like to.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
The max you might be crass.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
Yeah, that's what I learned the most that I can't
I mean like that, it really is like if someone
listened to, you know, like a Rage against the Machine
album and then was just like, how funny is this?
That's how I'm.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Realizing, which some people might yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
I had I mean, I really had no idea that
this was so not even politically charged, just.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
Like insightful, incisive, insensate, insensitive, insensitive, But yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
I didn't realize that it was Zach Taylor Rock posing
as Taysoon Day. That's what I've really learned.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
Well, I'm glad you learned something. And what I've learned
is is almost time to go, and so peace and
love to get all of our chancewers enters on Deetherer
Give it a chance, Give it a chance, Give it
a chance. Good morning, give it a chance, Give it
a chance, Give it a chance, give it a chance.
Good morning. Give it you want to give it a chance,
give it a chance, Give it a chance. Just welcome
tiny chancers, chancers.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Wasn't any chance port. This is this pot is actually
sponsored by chance Port.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Great if it was Chanceport, that was a that was big.
Lisa still has her Chanceport. My wife, Lisa has her
Chanceport from like growing up. We still use it. Well,
good use it, but we keep it around.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Well, that's using it. That's a kind of using it.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
That's true.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Can you hear me now? Can you hear me? Now?
That's cool? If I put a little I mean i'd
be able to see. I've been trying some new stuff
audio wized tech wise. But anyway, I'm just like putting
my hands in front of the mic. Anyway, let's get
back to the subject at hand, Chanceport Dunco and go jeans. Well,
waity chances hold on Jenko jeans. That's like chocolate rain.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Right, Oh wow, yeah it did sound like that. I
know it is. Today's song is chocolate rain. Actually that
would be great.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Yo, I would be thrilled to give that a chance.
I think there's a lot there by.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
The way, let's do it. Let's let's just say, just
to make all this tangent like, let's just do it.
There's no reason we can't, Okay. I mean I had
a song on deck, but we just went from Jenk
from JanSport to Jenko Jeans to you doing an impression
of chocolate rain. And now that's gonna be our song.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Is little Jenko Jeans.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
That's by Taison Day.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
It's Tay and you could do his name to it too,
Taison Day.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
I'm gonna be honest with you, I don't it says
right now. I just cueued it up. It's four minutes
and fifty three seconds. I don't think I've ever watched
or listened to this entire video.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Oh I'm so happy to tell you that I have
probably watched all of it in the in the dozens.
I mean it's cheaper by the dozens, no dowdy, but
I definitely think I've watched it in the doz.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Well. This is a strange category because it's like his intention,
I think was to be serious, and then it was
sort of taken as like a joke and then like
memed early meme and then like.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Very early me sort of like the beginning of a
certain kind of that as a thing the way I
think he was like kind of he was there pretty
early for sure.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
I'm excited for this. Wow, I'm so excited. All right,
where are you looking?
Speaker 2 (02:36):
You? Are you looking on? Are you looking on a
streaming service? Or are you looking on?
Speaker 1 (02:39):
I went to YouTube and I see Chocolate Ran original song.
I love when people put original song, yeah you know,
or like I also love when people put Vivo and
then they're not even their channel for Vivo was Okay,
here we go. Ready, everybody answers, listen and we'll be
right back. It's your leaders control tough. LIT mean.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Now, I don't look I recognize. I think we talked
about this on an episode before. I don't mean to sound,
I really don't mean to sound. There's this film critic
I don't know if he's still writing this guy armand
d White. And when there was still like weeklies, all weeklies,
you know, the Village Voice, the New York Press, all
that stuff, which still exists in some places a little bit,
(03:27):
but used to obviously be a ubiquity kind of before
the Internet sort of killed it. He was a film
critic for the New York Press, and he was like
a well known contrarian, and it was like is it
a bit does he really think this? Like he would
give every movie that we would presume was like a
critic Darling Oscar bait movie, he would basically always like
(03:47):
eviscerate them. He would put on his like end of
year list. You know. It would be stuff like you know,
things that were just like you know what was that
Jim Carrey movie with the the for Fairly Brothers, Me
and myself and Irene things like you know what I mean.
It would be like, yeah, so I don't want to
be arm and white. I'm not trying to be a
contrarian at all costs. I will just say this song
(04:10):
is to me. It's actually like wildly easy to give
a chancey in a variety of directions.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
I've never had a bigger one eighty in my life.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
It's really wild and I would love we can start
wherever you want. I will just say, there's also a
fascinating contextualization of It's fine. I think Weezer made a
video with a bunch of these people maybe.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
For like yes, pork and beans. I believe it was right, and.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
I think it was sort of like maybe even him
identifying to some extent with like the memeification of a
particular kind of it's riding a line where you're like,
this dude is clearly this song is actually like a
kind of relentless racial critique protest song.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
One hundred percent. Yeah, it's powerful, it's it's so. I again,
I want to just say I never heard this song,
like I always knew the meme, and I think I
remember watching a few snippets of Chocolate Rain and thinking
it was like kind of a funny thing. There's nothing
really funny about this, Like, in fact, it's it's a
flex it's amazing. You might be like, all he says
(05:13):
chocolate rain two hundred times, but the other things he
says in between each chocolate rain, that's almost like what
a brilliant juxtaposition to even do that, And the fact
that it became this comical meme doesn't make any sense.
I mean, actually it like showcases what our society is,
which is like, right, people don't scratch the service and
(05:33):
they just look at ha haha, chocolate rain. Chocolate rain.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Well and I feel like that's part of the kind
of complexity to me of watching it now, is like
he also by doing certain things like that parenthetical I
move away from the mic while I sing, and if
you haven't watched the video, I invite you to watch that.
And then the way he kind of like floats away
at the very end, he like looks at the camera
(05:56):
and like goes like yes, that indicates that that is
kind of comedic or kind of like you can understand
how this became.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
It's an open mic guy, right, like you ever go
to an open mic and then there's a guy that's
like saying, He's like this song's for you know whatever,
Hurricane Katrina. And then it's so sincere that even though
the message is like trying to do good, it's overly sincere,
and like everything become it's a church laugh. Everything becomes
comical because what he's talking about is so important.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Well, And I think the thing that's a little complex
about for lack of a better word, I don't there's
a word I'm looking for that's not exactly complex. The
thing that's a little opaque about it is to what
degree is he trying to do both? Because it is
like that is actually like a very dexterous piano figure
he's playing, and he goes to lengths to show you
that he's playing it. It's also repeated with slight variations
(06:51):
in the bass note based placements for five minutes.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
That's my anti chancy as well, Yes.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
And I think that's part of what. So what I'm
curious about is like he's doing these things that are
a little bit like a bit with the like I
move away from the mic while I'm breathing, floating off
at the very end of the song, and also being
like I'm going to write this song. It's kind of
a very nuanced and sort of comprehensive take on in
two thousand and seven, and a lot of that stuff
(07:19):
feels every bit is prevalent right now, if not more so.
I could, you know, venture to make a bunch of
guesses about exactly what he means in each particular part.
Some of it's pretty straightforward linguistically, some of it you
could like pick apart. Also, he called it chocolate rain,
and he says the phrase forty five thousand times over
(07:40):
the same piano figure and does those little things, so
it is a little bit like and then maybe this
is unfair, but in the seventeen years since, like I
have two friends who got me a cameo of him
saying something to me at an elevator. Yes, because I'm
so on the record about my like fascinating with this,
(08:01):
and you know, if you look at the rest of
his channel, he is now like a guy who's like
done a bunch of working out, wears tight T shirts,
exists in a space like cameo, and so it is
a little bit like, now, is that about Taizon Day?
Is that about the nature of you know, flickle frying
pan celebrity? Is that about all of It's in this
weird stew that I can't completely excavate to too satisfaction.
(08:23):
But what I do know is like what's actually going
on in this song is like you said, a flex,
this dude is playing a pretty dexterous piano part and
kind of like offering a Civix lesson while doing it
in a way that's like if it's also we need
to address his voice is yes, sort of like the
crash Test Dummies guy or something like, it's this weird
(08:47):
kind of like oh, like it's a deep, basy almost
like musical theater or something.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Especially at that time. So I will say that right now,
in culture and like on the internet, you get so
many different types of people and obviously like there's still
like a pop cream at the top that like is
you know Ariana Grande's that like, are you're quintessential the
same singer that's always been famous, Yes, the same ability.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
Sabrina Carpenter and who Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
But underneath that a lot of this has risen up
on through in a culture, a person who has this
voice can breakthrough and find an audience, and that's more
now than ever. Right, Like, it was an anomaly to
have a crash Test dummies, you know, if you don't know,
it's like wounds. There was this kid and the nineties
was good at that too, and this guy found that.
(09:37):
But I think through like a an ironic.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Well totally, and a critical difference between the two is
that crash Test Dummies were signed to a major, multinational,
corporate record label. This guy found this putting up a
video on YouTube that a bunch of people just shared
with one another and were like, Yeo, have you seen
this insane thing? I don't know how many people have
(10:01):
really zoned in on the lyrics, I will say this
is like that is I think where like your experience
of this song actually changes pretty dramatically, as if you're
actually like, wait, what is he saying between chocolate rains
and then.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
Even chocolate rain? Like even just what chocolate rain means?
I never thought about or of course not because it's
ever saying a song like I've only heard in small things,
So I always thought it was like random internet chocolate rain.
But it's it's like, I mean, you know, if you
could extrapolate in a couple of different directions, but one
in one of them, which is like the struggle of
(10:38):
you know, Black Americans, and the rain is that of
like you know, to symbolize like the sadness that it
falls upon and like that you have to you know,
survive through it. You know, there's this like iconography of it.
It's really what but it comes off as chocolate rain.
It's so weird, right.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
Talks rain every February we washed no ways. What's funny
is actually as a writing device, he like read the
nature of the use of that rain motif changes multiple
times throughout the song, but most often you're right, I
(11:24):
hear it in the like it's like that Book of Revelation,
A hard rain's gonna fall like that kind of rain,
you know, or like credence rain, like who's gonna I
wonder who'll stop the rain? Have you ever seen the rain?
Is like this kind of like those people were singing
it about Dylan and Creeden's Clearwater in the sixties. It's
like the onset of the civil rights movement, and it's
(11:46):
like Vietnam, these things that are cataclysms. And so if
you're singing about like structural institutional racism, that qualifies and
certainly like also if you're unsure how he means it,
then there's these moments where says things like, you know,
February in America, what is February Black History Month? And
he says, you know, every February washed away, like oh,
(12:08):
we've done our duty, we paid attention to this and
you know whatever, and now you know whatever, we don't
have to get too far field. Incidentally, there are plenty
of people that don't even want that to exist. That's
too much so and all it is is like a
cursory gesture at best. And he talks about this. This
makes me think about I can't believe I'm doing a
Tason Dave Bob Dylan thing. But yeah, it's it's like,
(12:31):
that's like the lonesome death of Hattie Carrol. The ladder
of law knows no top and no bottom. And he's
like talking about the rigged justice system between like the
maid that the black maid that this rich white guy kills.
That's this Dylan song from nineteen sixty four. Tayzon Day
spends a whole verse in this song as fart and
so far as there are verses, it's just a screed.
(12:52):
But at one point he's talking about like the judge
and jury say swear it's not the face he says
at one point, and he talks about the different ways
justice is meted out the way I'm like, if you
really lock into it, it's actually like completely crazy. But
then also it was delivered in this way. Sure, like
I've never heard him talk about this, but I know
(13:12):
he's like on cameo and like was happy to be
in that Weezer video. So it's like a complex thing
is going on.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Oh for sure, I mean, and I completely agree that
this is delivered slightly different. It is a it's an
incredible protest song and in fact, a lot of protest
music does repeat like a lot of protests. Oh yeah,
a chance over and over again. So like the difference
between like silence is violence and like chocolate rain is
that far? It's just that.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
No, it's an earworm kind of thing, a rhythmic earworm
kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
Yeah, but if I'm going anti chancy, it's like.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
You gotta go anti chancy at some point in case.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
It's a lot of repetition, right, it's a lot of
I think even the fact that he kind of like
in the video comes back to like clear his throat
away from the mic, and he does it so many times,
like everything is becomes comedic. But even protest music is
can become comedic after a while, right, Like when you
know you go far away from it, it sometimes is like.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
Oh my god, it's that what is that? I mean,
these are a bunch of complicated people at this point
in our culture's history. But it makes me think of
that what was that movie Get him to the Greek
and that Russell Brand character that's like the like fading
rock star and you see that he has just made
this video. He's like a white, rich British dude and
he's made this video called African Child. That's kind of
(14:32):
been like the end of his success, and it's like
the white Savior thing and he's dancing like yeah. The
reason that stuff is a trope in entertainment is because
it is often ludicrous, sanctimonious, tone deaf, and it is
delivered in a way that is instantly self satirizing.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
And so remember the Imagine, Like during the Imagine, on
the whole they had so much positive, like good intent,
it was edited poorly, like that whole thing. Their message
is sincere, but it comes off so bad.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
It's certainly in April of twenty twenty, when it was
like a bunch of like the richest, most famous people
in America in their houses singing lines while people are like,
you know, dying with COVID end mass was a little
bit like whoops, you know, And I think, you know,
I'd like to think the Taison Day that wrote Chocolate
(15:26):
Rain would be able to write something kind of pretty
stellar and insightful about that too. Also, he says at
one point turn that it's not just a racial critique,
it's an economic class critique. He says at one point
turn that body into GDP.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
Yes, that's insane.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
That's insane.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
There's like some really impressive imagery and like wordplay and
a lot of it. It's wild even just like stuff
like but test scores are how much the parents make yes? Yes,
it's crazy like that a lot of it. It's really
he just like drops it on you and doesn't explore it,
which is you might be like, well, he's just saying
He's just like he wrote down a bunch of lines
(16:06):
and said them and he doesn't really explore what that means.
But I like that, I actually really like.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
And also if he explored, what if he was like,
maybe if there was an accompanying essay where he was like,
Just to be clear, chocolate rain is meant to be
a metaphor for structural institutional racism, not just in America
but across the world. That's why I touch on riots
in France and the cast system in Mumbai. You'd probably
be like, oh, you know what I mean, Like, I
get it, I know how we are and we like
(16:33):
you don't really Then you'd be like, well, I don't
want to watch this anymore because I just thought this
was like funny.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
But there are people and this is the beauty of it, right,
this this gets memed. Yeah, and there's probably somebody who
watched it and was like, that's so funny, but wait,
what is this thing about Mumbai?
Speaker 2 (16:48):
Yeah? And then suddenly they're like, people, are you and
I we're doing this right now right now? Yes?
Speaker 1 (16:53):
Right, yes, yeah, but like I like, you know, thankfully,
like not thankfully, but like we know a lot of this, right,
But there were probably kids. And that's sometimes the best
thing about art is like when it it just kind
of gets in there, like like a protest song you
never even knew was a protest song.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Right.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
We've talked about like Born in the USA, and we've
talked about some of these like tunes that that people
don't realize are you know that are actually that have
a message? This one's interesting because it is overtly here's
the message, But it's not like the Black Eyed p
is like where is the love? Whereas yeah, we definitely
we're serious to y'all. That might be a good one
(17:32):
to bring back for another time.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
By the way, uhmark that that's it started the original version. Yeah,
we could do. I mean, it depends how long we
want this podcast to exist. But I do feel like
when well, the thing about sorry slight cul de sac.
This kind of connects to our lifestyles of the rich
and famous episode. The thing about something like where is
(17:54):
the Love is that there's a part of that that
wants to be like, let's get serious about nothing. There's
like a vacancy in the middle of where that song
is not that is not. No one's gonna mistake that
for the lonesome death of Hattie Carroll anytime soon, dam
and I even mistake it for like we are the world,
you know, Like there's what's going on in the middle
(18:15):
of that song is like that's a certain genre of
protest music that is actually protesting nothing. It is actually
like wearing the clothes of something like that for a
stab at authenticity. But what's happening inside of it is
like if you like it's like a broken clock or
something like if you got in there, you'd be like,
(18:35):
oh wait, there's actually the reason this clock doesn't work
is because there's nothing inside of it. It's like a
model home or whatever. But yeah, I feel like something
like this also again, and this is again maybe like
getting into something super structural about like the nature of
memified fame or even fame at all. I don't know,
is like he also delivers it. The part of why
(18:58):
it doesn't totally connect as whatever it is is because
it's just a single mid let range shot of a
man standing singing this song, not looking into the camera
every once in a while, moving away from the camera
to breathe every once in a while. There's an overhead
shot of him playing piano, and that's it for five minutes.
(19:19):
And there's something in it that's like, is this Andy Kaufman? Like?
Does this guy know exactly what he's doing? Is this like?
And then you're like, I think the benefit of seventeen
years of perspective is like, maybe Andy Coffin would have
been if he was alive now and working in the
current climate, maybe he would have also been somebody who
(19:40):
it was like, maybe he would have been revealed to
have just been another like YouTube personality also or something.
I don't know. Maybe maybe we can we over I
have no idea. That's an interesting thought experiment, like was
he a performance artist or was he a total hack?
Or was he I tend to think there was a
lot going on there. Also, you could make the claim
if you just saw chocolate rain once, you'd be like,
(20:03):
is this like brilliant performance art or twenty twenty four,
You're like, can you get a cameo from this guy
in an elevator being like GeV divine yes? Or is
all of that true at the same time.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
Yeah, let's explore that, right, because I do think that
sometimes this happens, probably a lot of people who kind
of get famous out of nowhere, especially like this sort
of ironic to a girl, right, A lot of that, right,
And this is interesting because your message was so sincere
and then like people are like kind of laughing, not
(20:36):
necessarily with you, you.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Know, definitely not I'm sure many people were laughing at yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
And then he sort of, you know, does this you know,
weeds your video or other probably things or just leans
into the culture of that meme. I don't really fault
him for it. I think it's just what anyone would do.
And I bet you he has other songs that he
probably found an audience that is not laughing, So I
give him. It's easy to write him off for doing
(21:04):
something like that, right, But it's pretty savvy, right, and
I think a lot of people do that. Hawk too
is a great example, because like I think she's going
to be like she's going to replace Hoda on the
on the Today Show, like in the way that our
culture is going. Yeah, you know what I mean. Yeah,
I just found out today that Hoda is leaving.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
I just saw too. It was breaking news, breaking news
amidst everything else insane that's happening in the world today.
But when I get that sometimes I'm like, hey, guys,
even the paper of Record, let's examine what we mean
when we say breaking news. But I guess that's a
big deal in the culture.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
Now going back to good Charlotte.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Poor good Charlotte, just catching strays. It's always I mean, look,
it's deserted.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
But yeah, like I don't know, like if they they
have this song and we knew going into it that
they are dating these models and they live in basically mansions,
and then they say, like, you know, how dare you like,
let's rob those mansions?
Speaker 2 (22:13):
Right? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (22:14):
But then if they afterwards echo or if like they
get sponsored by Abercrombie and Fitch or something and they
do that, they're bringing punk to Abercrombie and Fitch, Right, Yeah,
is that allowed? Right? If we're giving if we're giving
Tay a pass, are we giving everyone a pass? And
we don't. We usually don't, meaning you and me or
the culture, you and me, you and me.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
I feel like the thing is this for me, I
don't know what you know, one can say what is
objectively the thing, because that's different for everybody. But the
thing for me is that I get that some of
my thought processes about stuff like this are both they're
kind of relics at this point. They're a little antiquated.
At this point, I think we thoroughly live in a
(22:54):
post for instance, like look, one argument about a guy
like Taizon Day again, like in contrast to something that
was like a novelty act on a major corporate record label,
is that he built whatever the hell this is, ostensibly
by himself with the great luck of algorithmic you know aid.
But he didn't. This wasn't something that like whatever money
(23:17):
he's made from this, and whatever corporate involvement he has
had or not had from this came as afterwards. It
wasn't upfront. And so I mean, there is something about
that that is like of its time and a little
bit like inverted. There's like, you know, something you could
even call vaguely punk rock about that. It's definitely to
thine own self be true. But I would also say
(23:40):
I think we live in it. Like you know, I
read something recently that was really I thought very interesting
and cool about like the basically like the death of
the word indie meaning anything like it began somewhere in
the mid two thousandth and it basically in the mid
two thousands became like a reference to a certain sensibility, right,
(24:01):
not like an independently created, funded, executed, delivered work of
art or entertainment, which is literally what indie meant at
a time was independent of certain systems. That is no
longer what anybody thinks when they mean that indie means
like people like you were, like whatever, certain hairstyles, certain, yes, exactly,
(24:22):
And so basically with that, I think what has also
come is like, I know, there's a musician I admire
a great deal, And part of what I admired about
them at a certain point was that they were pretty
like successful but also committed to a certain kind of
like independent existence and we're doing very well by any
sort of objective metric. And then at some point what
(24:44):
was kind of unfortunate I thought was that they're part
of it became a little bit like literally in some
interview they made some reference to like if I could
go back and change anything, I would have just said
yes every time I made all the money I could
have made. It's basically this like don't eat the player,
hate the game, don't hat the sin or hate the sin,
like got to get your bag. And I'm not going
to stand there and tell anybody that that's not the right.
(25:07):
I don't know that there. I don't know one. This
is not sainthood. We live in an economic system, and
we live in a system of social mobility, or a
supposed social mobility, but it's like sort of a system
of you want to be visible and you want to
be making money. And if you're in this thing, like
I get it. It's kind of like someone like me
who's trying to resume. Yeah, and if you're like trying
(25:29):
to do it without doing it, there's an argument that
that's like actually like really naive and self defeating. But
there is something to me about No, do I think
it's wrong that he took all the opportunities that came
to him through a funny video that he put up
on or whether he thought it was funny or not,
of course not, but I also I'm allowed to think
to understand why any of us make the decisions we make,
(25:53):
and I'm also allowed to find it a little sad.
Like I think those two things at the same time.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
We're talking about two things, right, Like there's sort of
a sellout. There's the fact that I think sellout culture
is gone, or like just even the idea of like
people being bummed when people sell out, like that doesn't
exist anymore.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
Right, not the same way, certainly not.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
I don't think at all. I think there are still
people holding on to, like, you know, an idea of
what something is, and then when somebody crosses into something
where they're making a lot of money, people are like
sell out. But I don't think there's many people even
do that at all anymore. Sure, maybe a generation still
holds onto it. But then there's also, yeah, you're right,
there's this thing of I also, yeah, you're right, Like
there's just like stay in your lane or like the
(26:35):
thing that you set out to do, you're doing the
opposite of right.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
I'm trying to complicate it.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
No, because that's even a third thing, which is like
there are people who nowadays it's like there was a
time that it.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
Was like everybody wants to talk again something, Yeah, like
you should stick.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
With wrapping and not doing podcasts.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
Right.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
No, there was a time that people were like, stay
in your lane, don't be a jack of all trades, right,
you know, Like, but now it's like it's it seemsdvantageous
to do too much.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
I saw something amazing that Rob Schnaff record producer said
to me recently, which was for like a Seinfeld meme,
and it was like every musician now reckoning with the
fact that they're supposed to be like a marketing mogul
and a content producer and a social media expert. And
it was Jerry and George and the diner and they're
having some one of their endless, minutia obsessed nonsense conversations
(27:30):
and Jerry just like pushes back from the table and
he's like, what is this? What even is this? What
lives are we living?
Speaker 1 (27:37):
You know?
Speaker 2 (27:39):
And that's the thing, No, right you are. You are encouraged,
And how could you judge people for wanting to like
be stable, successful, visible, secure in the culture Taizon Day
or anybody else. At the same time, I do reserve
the right to feel like, you know, it's like funny.
(27:59):
It's like there's these certain like stuff. I could go
in a million different directions about this, but it's like,
there are a lot of things that I totally understand
from a practical pragmatic and have to and you accept
as part of just like how things work. But also
if you step back from them or not even that far,
you're like, well, I'm still allowed to think that's like
a mega bummer that those are the terms of engagement
(28:21):
and that doesn't mean like, look, if you're somebody like
this and you make this video and hundreds of millions
of times this video is viewed, and what that enables
you to do is like get on the radar. If
someone like a Rivers Cuomo to wants to put you
in a song with a bunch of people who are
like you, it's kind of like this like we're in
on the joke kind of thing. You know, there's some
(28:42):
empowerment in that. And also if what it allows you
to do is like every once in a while go
on these weird branded tours or be it a corporate event,
or have someone like my friends be like, hey, we'll
pay this guy fifty bucks to say like happy birthday
to Kevin, How in the world could you? But if
you get into what he's talking about in the thing
that exploded it, it's kind of a mind fuck. Actually,
(29:03):
you're just kind of like, what the fuck? There's a
lot there, as I guess that would be my ultimate chance,
is that there's so much more in this than you
would just get from being like, ok itd rain. And
also you can get plenty from that too, worse than shouting,
worse than full of nignaus.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
Wow, that's a good one. That's a good crash. You've
been working on it. So I didn't know fiventeen years
about you. I didn't know that you were so big
into Tay.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
I don't know what it is. It's I find it
a fascinating piece of epemera, Like it is a crazy
thing to me, soup to nuts. Everything about this is
just like endless fascination.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
Is it because you see yourself in him? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (29:43):
I see myself. I mean honestly, it's like I see
myself in I see myself and most of the artists
we talk about on this show. I see myself in Tay.
I see myself in you know. I'm Madley and angry
with you.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
I didn't realize that we would go in this story.
I mean, obviously, this whole episode was such a fun
surprise because I you know, you know, I had a
song in the chamber, locked loaded, ready to shoot, and
then I like that we just followed this direction. It's
it's very fun and surprising.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
I want to keep you on your toes case. I
want to bring something to this exchange. All the feedback
I get out on the road and thank you to
the chancers that come to the shows. I'm not a joke.
I'm not joking. People come up every show now and
talk about the podcast, which is amazing, but all the
feedback is like, dude, your garbage, you suck your subs
Ondaie Casey's great, You're like posts on Dae and I'm like,
I know, I know, I'm trying to keep all my
(30:32):
eyes toes. All right, look, we got a minute left
to wrap this up.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
Okay, So Taison Day, Yeah, Taison Day is Rage against
the Machine, like to.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
The max you might be crass.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
Yeah, that's what I learned the most that I can't
I mean like that, it really is like if someone
listened to, you know, like a Rage against the Machine
album and then was just like, how funny is this?
That's how I'm.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Realizing, which some people might yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
I had I mean, I really had no idea that
this was so not even politically charged, just.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
Like insightful, incisive, insensate, insensitive, insensitive, But yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
I didn't realize that it was Zach Taylor Rock posing
as Taysoon Day. That's what I've really learned.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
Well, I'm glad you learned something. And what I've learned
is is almost time to go, and so peace and
love to get all of our chancewers enters on Deetherer
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