Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
We know that the Northern Territory Police are investigating a
second death in custody following the passing of a sixty
eight year old man in Royal Darwin Hospital. The man's
been taken into He had been taken into protective custody
by the AFP officers and was initially conveyed to the
Palmerston Watchhouse now before being admitted and whilst still in
(00:22):
AFP custody. So before being admitted to the hospital, the
custody sergeant and nurse had assised that the mail well,
it was deemed necessary to convey him to Royal Darwin
Hospital sorry so before he was admitted to the watchhouse Now.
Upon arrival at Royal Darwin Hospital, AFP members noticed that
the man had lost consciousness. Medical staff were alerted who
(00:44):
immediately commenced CPR. Resuscitation efforts were successful and he was
transferred to the Intensive Key Unit in a stable condition.
On Saturday, that man passed away in ICU and the
cause of the man's death remains undertermined pending a post mortem.
His death is the second death in custody in twelve
(01:06):
days now. One of Australia's largest aboriginal legal services is
calling for an emergency intervention to de escalate tensions in
the Northern Territories justice system following the two deaths of
these Aboriginal meaning police custody in less than a fortnight.
Now joining me in the studio this morning, I have
(01:28):
got the acting CEO of NAJA, Anthony Bevan. Good morning
to you.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Good morning, Katy.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Great to have you in the studio. And I've also
got naja's chair Theresa Row, Good morning to you.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Yeah, Good morning Katie, and good morning to your listeners.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
It's really good to have you both in the studio.
I appreciate your time this morning. Now, why are you
calling for the federal government to step in, Katie?
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Just before we get into that, NAJA, the staff and
the directors, we just want to pass our condolences on
to the what Air community and the family of ten.
He was an extremely important leader within the what Air community,
highly respected, had done enormous amount of work in the
(02:13):
education sector in what Air, had represented that community in
a very positive way. And it's a really tragic loss
and we just want to pass on our heartfelt condolences
and prayers to the people of what Air and Tien's family.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Yeah, I think that's an important thing to do. And yeah,
I mean a lot of people hurting at the moment,
I would imagine, yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
And likewise for the family and loved ones at Yindamu
for a young woldpri man who passed away, So our
thoughts and prayers go out to them too.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
So following these two tragic situations, I know that Naja
is indeed looking for some federal intervention in some way. Anthony,
what do you want to see from the federal government
at this point?
Speaker 2 (03:05):
So, just to take a step back, Katie, where we
find ourselves at the moment is that from twenty nineteen
to twenty twenty four, before the current government was elected,
we saw the incarceration rate of Aboriginal people in the
Northern Territory increase by forty percent. Now we've all seen
those stats. Since the government was elected last year, we
(03:31):
know that a further five hundred Aboriginal people have been
locked up and are incarcerated. So we're heading in the
wrong direction in terms of our closing the gap targets
of reducing incarceration rates. And why we need to reduce
incarceration rates is because we all know the statistics, the
(03:52):
data The research shows that the best place for people
to be rehabilitated and diverted into into other activities and
improvements in their life is not in jail. It's working
in community. It's being employed, being part of the community.
So we've seen incarceration rates go up. Now, last Tuesday,
(04:16):
the Chief Minister was on radio and she indicated that
crime rates have actually increased since the government was elected.
So we're seeing crime rates going up, and we're told
that incarcerating more Aboriginal people is going to be the
solution to reducing crime rates. So it hasn't worked. The
Chief Minister said, well, let's give it more time. It's
(04:38):
been eight months already crime has gone up, not down,
and yet we're seeing five hundred more Aboriginal Territorians incarcerated.
It's just not the answer. We need to find another solution.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Look, there are a lot of victims of crime who
listen to this show. Some of them really seriously impacted
by violent crime. Some of them seriously impacted, you know,
people breaking into their homes or stealing their property, and
they were very frustrated by the former government's approach when
(05:13):
it came to crime. What do you say to listeners,
some of whom are really fed up with what they
see as a victimization of people who are committing crimes
rather than them being treated as the victims when they've
been on the receiving end.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Absolutely, Katie, everyone deserves to feel safe in their home.
Everyone deserves to be able to walk down the streets
or go to the shopping center, or go to a
footy game without being subjected to crime. And right across
the territory, whether you live in a remote community, you
live in Darwin or Alla Springs, everyone wants to feel
(05:52):
safe in their homes. And NAJOR fully supports the work
that the police do. They do a very difficult job.
But you know, what we've heard from the police union,
what we're hearing from communities, what you're hearing from NARJA,
is that the current approach is not working. The police
last year indicated that there was going to be deaths
(06:12):
in custody as a result of the pressure on their members.
So the police are saying this isn't the right approach.
Incarcerating people at record numbers is not the right approach.
We know from naga's perspective working with people that are
before the justice system, we know that the current approach
is not working. So we fully support the work that
(06:34):
the police do in keeping our community safe. That's paramount.
That's got to be the number one thing. But if
we want to feel safer, locking people up in record
numbers is not the solution. We've seen crime increase. If
it was the solution, we would see crime decrease after
eight months. So there's a better way of doing it.
(06:54):
And enough is enough. We've had had a young man
killed for stealing allegedly stealing a chocolate bar. We've had
an elderly, highly respected Aboriginal leader pass away for having
too many beers at the airports. That's not the way
to keep people safe. It's not the way to keep
(07:15):
people safe.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
So where too from here? I mean, what do you
think what are the calls from Nuja right now in
terms of the next steps therese.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
Yeah, we were calling for a forum. We're written to
the Chief Minister, mister Flocquiaro, asking if she can meet
with us, with the police, the Attorney Generals, Corrections and
Abriginal leaders because we know there's a crisis and the
justice system, you know, so it's you know, the courts
and you know the whole prisons. It's just just not adequate.
(07:49):
So we've written to her. We're hoping to hear back
from her pretty soon. Come together, let's look at some
better solutions than we've got at the moment in you know,
locking people up. You know, we know that locking people
ups not the answer. As Anthony mentioned, you know, I
believe there's just been a lack of investment in the
bush and there are particularly remote communities and housing, education,
(08:13):
a lot of our people living in poverty, a lot
of the young people don't have a job to wake
up to in the morning. You know. People need hope,
you know, and aspirations. And I just feel that, you know,
not only this government, previous governments have neglected Aboriginal people
across the board in nordern Territory.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
So what would a forum look like? Who would you
want to attend? I mean, is it a situation where
you're wanting the federal government and the Northern Territory government
there alongside indigenous leaders. How would this all look?
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Absolutely? So, the forum we're looking at is we need
to find a new way of doing this rather than disincarceration.
Incarcerat it hasn't worked. So what we're calling for is
and why we've written to the Chief Minister is let's
sit down with the Chief Manu, with the Comwealth and,
as Teresa said, with Aboriginal leaders, and let's find a solution.
(09:06):
So it's not about reducing safety in communities. We want
communities to be safer and there is a better way
of doing it. Let's find that way. Let's reduce the
pressures on the justice system, Let's reduce the pressures on
corrections and police, and let's find a way that gets
us to having not so many territorians locked up, having
(09:28):
the community safer. Because this one track approach of just
lock people up, lock people up, lock people up has
not worked. Crime has increased. So we want to sit
down and talk about it now. The problem we've found
in the last eight months is there's the government has
just reacted. So legislation last year in September was pushed
(09:50):
through with forty eight hours notice after the tragic circumstances
in Nightcliff, we saw legislation push through in five days,
with members of Parliament giving ten minutes to review new legislation.
Instead of reacting in that way, let's sit down, talk
about things, work through, things come up with solution that's
(10:10):
going to work.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
How do we I mean, Like, the thing that I
really feel, and I know from you know, doing this
show every single day, is you know, like I said,
I speak to victims of crime who've been who have
been involved in some of the most terrible, tragic situations.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
You know.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
I had Auntie Billa Warra Lee come on the show
and speak to me following the tragic death of Linford
Fire and say to me, Katie, you know I don't
feel safe on the streets like I once did. So
I mean, the situation that we're in at the moment
is we have some people that are unfortunately committing some
really serious violent offending and the community has this sense
(10:55):
that they would rather them in jail and off the
street then putting their lives in danger. So I mean,
what do you say to those listening this morning that
are really feeling that way?
Speaker 2 (11:08):
So, Katie, you know, as I said at the beginning,
the first priority is everyone needs to be safe at
home and walking the street, going to footy games. That's paramount.
So if someone has committed a violent crime, yes they
should be punished. We've got a justice system set up
to do that. But what we're seeing is a lot
of Aboriginal people are being taken through the justice system
(11:31):
and being incarcerated and they may have just made a
small mistake, they may have done the wrong thing. Now
they're being locked up for on average six seven months,
and they're in there with those violent criminals. Now do
you think when they come out they're going to be
better people or worse people? So what we're saying is, yes,
if you've committed a violent crime, if you're making your
(11:54):
community unsafe, yes, a jail is definitely an option that's
supported right across territory. But putting people who shouldn't be
in jail in with violent criminals is not going to
put them out on the street after six or seven
months as model citizens. It's not the place where they
deserve to be. And you know, Katie, if I just
(12:16):
take a step back, what we're seeing is fifty percent
of people that are in territory jails at this moment
today have not been convicted of an offense. So they're
on remand they're on remand they're not eligible for rehabilitation
or diversion programs, and they're sitting for small matters on
(12:36):
average three months in remand if it's a more serious
matter in the Supreme Court, three hundred and fifty one
days without being convicted. They're being placed without rehabilitation or
diversionary programs with violent criminals in jails right across. How
is that making our community safe?
Speaker 1 (12:55):
Do you think we need a remand center?
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Absolutely? One of the things we'd be putting on the
table at this forum is we need a remand center
rather than locking people who may have committed a minor
offense that may not even see them being sentenced to
a period of imprisonment, putting them in with violent criminals.
(13:18):
We do need a remand center. But more importantly, why
are people waiting on average three hundred and fifty one
days on average for their matter to come before the
Supreme Court. We need to reduce those romand times. And
more importantly, if people are being held on remand, why
aren't they having access to rehabilitation and diversion programs. It's
(13:42):
just not the right approach.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
YEA, Look, I actually I think that's something that is
really important. We did actually ask the Corrections Minister about
this on the show yesterday. Where the people that are
in remand do have access to programs. He said that
in some cases it could be voluntarily that they could
do a program. But is that actually the case, Katie.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
The people that we speak to that are on remand,
our clients are saying that they're in jail waiting on remand,
and the common question is, no one has even come
and approached me. No one has approached me. I'm in
here for domestic violence, I'm in here for alcohol abuse
that led to a crime. No one has approached me
(14:22):
with a DV program or an alcohol rehabilitation program. And
the response is I'm not eligible because I'm on remand.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
And they're in there though, on average, three hundred and
fifty one Supreme Court matter, the Supreme Court matters. What
about in the like in the local.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Court ninety days? Ninety days, that's on average, that's on average.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
Yeah, I mean, look, it does seem as though there
needs to be a lot of work across the board.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
I mean, can I just want one more thing on that, Katie,
is that we all know, we've all heard of the
presumption of innocence. Now, unfortunately, we hear a lot of
commentary that people are in jail have done the wrong
thing until the courts have found that they've done the
wrong thing. They're entitled the presumption of innocence.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
So when you look at that, should they then you know,
should they actually be doing programs or doing different you know,
being involved in different programs if they're presumed innocent, I
guess is it like it's a tough juggle then.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
But if someone has a problem with violence and domestic
violence and alcohol abuse or drug abuse, that's the perfect
time if they're on ramand to be at least offering
those programs to them. They may say no, but making
them mandatory, making them voluntary, but having the programs is
a start. If you don't have the programs, how are
(15:46):
you expecting people to turn their lives around? Sitting in
jail for six or seven months waiting for your matter
with violent criminals, and when you come out, how are
you going to say, I've changed my life. I'm not
going to drink alcohol, I'm not going to beat my wife,
I'm not going to commit a crime.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
Worry is you're going to become a better offend potentially,
you know, if you're not able to commit or you know,
complete a program, and if you are around people who
have committed serious offenses, So.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
Just one more thing, sorry, Katie is you know we
all here it. Justice delayed is justice denied. So with
those remand numbers, we've got to get more resources into
the courts where those matters can be heard in a
more timely manner. So that means more judges, that means
more courts being established. We have a great system of
community courts around the territory. We have a great system
(16:39):
of bush or circuit courts around the territory. We just
need to put more resources into the court system because
justice delayed is justice denied. And the longer people sit
in jail who are entitled the presumption of innocence if
they're found not guilty, and they've spent all that time
in jail, they've lost their job. They've probably lost their
(17:02):
car because they can't maintain the car payments. They've been
kicked out of their house because they haven't been able
to pay rent. So they've spent six or seven months
in jail, come out without a job, without a car,
without a house. What do you think they're going to
do well?
Speaker 1 (17:15):
I also think to myself, what about the victim, you know,
who's then waiting for that period of time to have
an outcome to that case. It's you know, it is
a long time we are going to have to wrap up.
I mean where too from here, do you think, Theresa?
Speaker 3 (17:31):
I think, yeah, that forum is really important, but I
think the government need to address particularly with these recent
destined custody. You know a lot of Aboriginal people are
really fearful of the police now and just probably don't
have that much trust in them. I think the Chief
Minister needs to stand up and reassure Aboriginal Territory ins
(17:55):
that the police are there to serve and protect us,
you know, because there's a lot of families not only
with these just and custody, but a lot of the
I don't know if any Aboriginal family in the Northern
Territory doesn't have family that's locked up today, you know,
Like it's a really sad case. But yeah, I would
(18:16):
just like to see better leadership from our Chief Minister
and the new government.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
Well, I really appreciate you both coming in this morning
and having a very extensive discussion with us. As I
said to you both offair, I know, you know, not
everybody will agree with what you're saying this morning. I
think it's really important to hear, you know, from everybody
and certainly be hearing across the board and differing opinions
in these spaces. So I really appreciate you both joining
(18:41):
us on the show this morning.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
And Anthony yet and just our final point that we
started with is the forum is the first step, but
you know we need if there's not going to be
action by the territory government, we are calling on the
federal government for the intervention into the justice system because
we need our justice system to work. We want to
sit down with the Chief Minister and with Aboriginal leaders
(19:08):
and come up with a solution. But if that doesn't
occur and we can't get the Chief Minister the table,
the only other solution then is to seek that federal intervention.
We don't want to go there, but if it's the
only way to fix what is a broken justice system,
we have to put it on the table.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
Well, NAJA Chair Theresa Row and Acting CEO Anthony Bevin
really appreciate your time this morning. Thank you both very
much for joining me in the studio. Thanks Katie, Thank you, Katie,
thank you
We know that the Northern Territory Police are investigating a
second death in custody following the passing of a sixty
eight year old man in Royal Darwin Hospital. The man's
been taken into He had been taken into protective custody
by the AFP officers and was initially conveyed to the
Palmerston Watchhouse now before being admitted and whilst still in
(00:22):
AFP custody. So before being admitted to the hospital, the
custody sergeant and nurse had assised that the mail well,
it was deemed necessary to convey him to Royal Darwin
Hospital sorry so before he was admitted to the watchhouse Now.
Upon arrival at Royal Darwin Hospital, AFP members noticed that
the man had lost consciousness. Medical staff were alerted who
(00:44):
immediately commenced CPR. Resuscitation efforts were successful and he was
transferred to the Intensive Key Unit in a stable condition.
On Saturday, that man passed away in ICU and the
cause of the man's death remains undertermined pending a post mortem.
His death is the second death in custody in twelve
(01:06):
days now. One of Australia's largest aboriginal legal services is
calling for an emergency intervention to de escalate tensions in
the Northern Territories justice system following the two deaths of
these Aboriginal meaning police custody in less than a fortnight.
Now joining me in the studio this morning, I have
(01:28):
got the acting CEO of NAJA, Anthony Bevan. Good morning
to you.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Good morning, Katy.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Great to have you in the studio. And I've also
got naja's chair Theresa Row, Good morning to you.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Yeah, Good morning Katie, and good morning to your listeners.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
It's really good to have you both in the studio.
I appreciate your time this morning. Now, why are you
calling for the federal government to step in, Katie?
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Just before we get into that, NAJA, the staff and
the directors, we just want to pass our condolences on
to the what Air community and the family of ten.
He was an extremely important leader within the what Air community,
highly respected, had done enormous amount of work in the
(02:13):
education sector in what Air, had represented that community in
a very positive way. And it's a really tragic loss
and we just want to pass on our heartfelt condolences
and prayers to the people of what Air and Tien's family.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Yeah, I think that's an important thing to do. And yeah,
I mean a lot of people hurting at the moment,
I would imagine, yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
And likewise for the family and loved ones at Yindamu
for a young woldpri man who passed away, So our
thoughts and prayers go out to them too.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
So following these two tragic situations, I know that Naja
is indeed looking for some federal intervention in some way. Anthony,
what do you want to see from the federal government
at this point?
Speaker 2 (03:05):
So, just to take a step back, Katie, where we
find ourselves at the moment is that from twenty nineteen
to twenty twenty four, before the current government was elected,
we saw the incarceration rate of Aboriginal people in the
Northern Territory increase by forty percent. Now we've all seen
those stats. Since the government was elected last year, we
(03:31):
know that a further five hundred Aboriginal people have been
locked up and are incarcerated. So we're heading in the
wrong direction in terms of our closing the gap targets
of reducing incarceration rates. And why we need to reduce
incarceration rates is because we all know the statistics, the
(03:52):
data The research shows that the best place for people
to be rehabilitated and diverted into into other activities and
improvements in their life is not in jail. It's working
in community. It's being employed, being part of the community.
So we've seen incarceration rates go up. Now, last Tuesday,
(04:16):
the Chief Minister was on radio and she indicated that
crime rates have actually increased since the government was elected.
So we're seeing crime rates going up, and we're told
that incarcerating more Aboriginal people is going to be the
solution to reducing crime rates. So it hasn't worked. The
Chief Minister said, well, let's give it more time. It's
(04:38):
been eight months already crime has gone up, not down,
and yet we're seeing five hundred more Aboriginal Territorians incarcerated.
It's just not the answer. We need to find another solution.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Look, there are a lot of victims of crime who
listen to this show. Some of them really seriously impacted
by violent crime. Some of them seriously impacted, you know,
people breaking into their homes or stealing their property, and
they were very frustrated by the former government's approach when
(05:13):
it came to crime. What do you say to listeners,
some of whom are really fed up with what they
see as a victimization of people who are committing crimes
rather than them being treated as the victims when they've
been on the receiving end.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Absolutely, Katie, everyone deserves to feel safe in their home.
Everyone deserves to be able to walk down the streets
or go to the shopping center, or go to a
footy game without being subjected to crime. And right across
the territory, whether you live in a remote community, you
live in Darwin or Alla Springs, everyone wants to feel
(05:52):
safe in their homes. And NAJOR fully supports the work
that the police do. They do a very difficult job.
But you know, what we've heard from the police union,
what we're hearing from communities, what you're hearing from NARJA,
is that the current approach is not working. The police
last year indicated that there was going to be deaths
(06:12):
in custody as a result of the pressure on their members.
So the police are saying this isn't the right approach.
Incarcerating people at record numbers is not the right approach.
We know from naga's perspective working with people that are
before the justice system, we know that the current approach
is not working. So we fully support the work that
(06:34):
the police do in keeping our community safe. That's paramount.
That's got to be the number one thing. But if
we want to feel safer, locking people up in record
numbers is not the solution. We've seen crime increase. If
it was the solution, we would see crime decrease after
eight months. So there's a better way of doing it.
(06:54):
And enough is enough. We've had had a young man
killed for stealing allegedly stealing a chocolate bar. We've had
an elderly, highly respected Aboriginal leader pass away for having
too many beers at the airports. That's not the way
to keep people safe. It's not the way to keep
(07:15):
people safe.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
So where too from here? I mean, what do you
think what are the calls from Nuja right now in
terms of the next steps therese.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
Yeah, we were calling for a forum. We're written to
the Chief Minister, mister Flocquiaro, asking if she can meet
with us, with the police, the Attorney Generals, Corrections and
Abriginal leaders because we know there's a crisis and the
justice system, you know, so it's you know, the courts
and you know the whole prisons. It's just just not adequate.
(07:49):
So we've written to her. We're hoping to hear back
from her pretty soon. Come together, let's look at some
better solutions than we've got at the moment in you know,
locking people up. You know, we know that locking people
ups not the answer. As Anthony mentioned, you know, I
believe there's just been a lack of investment in the
bush and there are particularly remote communities and housing, education,
(08:13):
a lot of our people living in poverty, a lot
of the young people don't have a job to wake
up to in the morning. You know. People need hope,
you know, and aspirations. And I just feel that, you know,
not only this government, previous governments have neglected Aboriginal people
across the board in nordern Territory.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
So what would a forum look like? Who would you
want to attend? I mean, is it a situation where
you're wanting the federal government and the Northern Territory government
there alongside indigenous leaders. How would this all look?
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Absolutely? So, the forum we're looking at is we need
to find a new way of doing this rather than disincarceration.
Incarcerat it hasn't worked. So what we're calling for is
and why we've written to the Chief Minister is let's
sit down with the Chief Manu, with the Comwealth and,
as Teresa said, with Aboriginal leaders, and let's find a solution.
(09:06):
So it's not about reducing safety in communities. We want
communities to be safer and there is a better way
of doing it. Let's find that way. Let's reduce the
pressures on the justice system, Let's reduce the pressures on
corrections and police, and let's find a way that gets
us to having not so many territorians locked up, having
(09:28):
the community safer. Because this one track approach of just
lock people up, lock people up, lock people up has
not worked. Crime has increased. So we want to sit
down and talk about it now. The problem we've found
in the last eight months is there's the government has
just reacted. So legislation last year in September was pushed
(09:50):
through with forty eight hours notice after the tragic circumstances
in Nightcliff, we saw legislation push through in five days,
with members of Parliament giving ten minutes to review new legislation.
Instead of reacting in that way, let's sit down, talk
about things, work through, things come up with solution that's
(10:10):
going to work.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
How do we I mean, Like, the thing that I
really feel, and I know from you know, doing this
show every single day, is you know, like I said,
I speak to victims of crime who've been who have
been involved in some of the most terrible, tragic situations.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
You know.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
I had Auntie Billa Warra Lee come on the show
and speak to me following the tragic death of Linford
Fire and say to me, Katie, you know I don't
feel safe on the streets like I once did. So
I mean, the situation that we're in at the moment
is we have some people that are unfortunately committing some
really serious violent offending and the community has this sense
(10:55):
that they would rather them in jail and off the
street then putting their lives in danger. So I mean,
what do you say to those listening this morning that
are really feeling that way?
Speaker 2 (11:08):
So, Katie, you know, as I said at the beginning,
the first priority is everyone needs to be safe at
home and walking the street, going to footy games. That's paramount.
So if someone has committed a violent crime, yes they
should be punished. We've got a justice system set up
to do that. But what we're seeing is a lot
of Aboriginal people are being taken through the justice system
(11:31):
and being incarcerated and they may have just made a
small mistake, they may have done the wrong thing. Now
they're being locked up for on average six seven months,
and they're in there with those violent criminals. Now do
you think when they come out they're going to be
better people or worse people? So what we're saying is, yes,
if you've committed a violent crime, if you're making your
(11:54):
community unsafe, yes, a jail is definitely an option that's
supported right across territory. But putting people who shouldn't be
in jail in with violent criminals is not going to
put them out on the street after six or seven
months as model citizens. It's not the place where they
deserve to be. And you know, Katie, if I just
(12:16):
take a step back, what we're seeing is fifty percent
of people that are in territory jails at this moment
today have not been convicted of an offense. So they're
on remand they're on remand they're not eligible for rehabilitation
or diversion programs, and they're sitting for small matters on
(12:36):
average three months in remand if it's a more serious
matter in the Supreme Court, three hundred and fifty one
days without being convicted. They're being placed without rehabilitation or
diversionary programs with violent criminals in jails right across. How
is that making our community safe?
Speaker 1 (12:55):
Do you think we need a remand center?
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Absolutely? One of the things we'd be putting on the
table at this forum is we need a remand center
rather than locking people who may have committed a minor
offense that may not even see them being sentenced to
a period of imprisonment, putting them in with violent criminals.
(13:18):
We do need a remand center. But more importantly, why
are people waiting on average three hundred and fifty one
days on average for their matter to come before the
Supreme Court. We need to reduce those romand times. And
more importantly, if people are being held on remand, why
aren't they having access to rehabilitation and diversion programs. It's
(13:42):
just not the right approach.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
YEA, Look, I actually I think that's something that is
really important. We did actually ask the Corrections Minister about
this on the show yesterday. Where the people that are
in remand do have access to programs. He said that
in some cases it could be voluntarily that they could
do a program. But is that actually the case, Katie.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
The people that we speak to that are on remand,
our clients are saying that they're in jail waiting on remand,
and the common question is, no one has even come
and approached me. No one has approached me. I'm in
here for domestic violence, I'm in here for alcohol abuse
that led to a crime. No one has approached me
(14:22):
with a DV program or an alcohol rehabilitation program. And
the response is I'm not eligible because I'm on remand.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
And they're in there though, on average, three hundred and
fifty one Supreme Court matter, the Supreme Court matters. What
about in the like in the local.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Court ninety days? Ninety days, that's on average, that's on average.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
Yeah, I mean, look, it does seem as though there
needs to be a lot of work across the board.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
I mean, can I just want one more thing on that, Katie,
is that we all know, we've all heard of the
presumption of innocence. Now, unfortunately, we hear a lot of
commentary that people are in jail have done the wrong
thing until the courts have found that they've done the
wrong thing. They're entitled the presumption of innocence.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
So when you look at that, should they then you know,
should they actually be doing programs or doing different you know,
being involved in different programs if they're presumed innocent, I
guess is it like it's a tough juggle then.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
But if someone has a problem with violence and domestic
violence and alcohol abuse or drug abuse, that's the perfect
time if they're on ramand to be at least offering
those programs to them. They may say no, but making
them mandatory, making them voluntary, but having the programs is
a start. If you don't have the programs, how are
(15:46):
you expecting people to turn their lives around? Sitting in
jail for six or seven months waiting for your matter
with violent criminals, and when you come out, how are
you going to say, I've changed my life. I'm not
going to drink alcohol, I'm not going to beat my wife,
I'm not going to commit a crime.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
Worry is you're going to become a better offend potentially,
you know, if you're not able to commit or you know,
complete a program, and if you are around people who
have committed serious offenses, So.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
Just one more thing, sorry, Katie is you know we
all here it. Justice delayed is justice denied. So with
those remand numbers, we've got to get more resources into
the courts where those matters can be heard in a
more timely manner. So that means more judges, that means
more courts being established. We have a great system of
community courts around the territory. We have a great system
(16:39):
of bush or circuit courts around the territory. We just
need to put more resources into the court system because
justice delayed is justice denied. And the longer people sit
in jail who are entitled the presumption of innocence if
they're found not guilty, and they've spent all that time
in jail, they've lost their job. They've probably lost their
(17:02):
car because they can't maintain the car payments. They've been
kicked out of their house because they haven't been able
to pay rent. So they've spent six or seven months
in jail, come out without a job, without a car,
without a house. What do you think they're going to
do well?
Speaker 1 (17:15):
I also think to myself, what about the victim, you know,
who's then waiting for that period of time to have
an outcome to that case. It's you know, it is
a long time we are going to have to wrap up.
I mean where too from here, do you think, Theresa?
Speaker 3 (17:31):
I think, yeah, that forum is really important, but I
think the government need to address particularly with these recent
destined custody. You know a lot of Aboriginal people are
really fearful of the police now and just probably don't
have that much trust in them. I think the Chief
Minister needs to stand up and reassure Aboriginal Territory ins
(17:55):
that the police are there to serve and protect us,
you know, because there's a lot of families not only
with these just and custody, but a lot of the
I don't know if any Aboriginal family in the Northern
Territory doesn't have family that's locked up today, you know,
Like it's a really sad case. But yeah, I would
(18:16):
just like to see better leadership from our Chief Minister
and the new government.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
Well, I really appreciate you both coming in this morning
and having a very extensive discussion with us. As I
said to you both offair, I know, you know, not
everybody will agree with what you're saying this morning. I
think it's really important to hear, you know, from everybody
and certainly be hearing across the board and differing opinions
in these spaces. So I really appreciate you both joining
(18:41):
us on the show this morning.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
And Anthony yet and just our final point that we
started with is the forum is the first step, but
you know we need if there's not going to be
action by the territory government, we are calling on the
federal government for the intervention into the justice system because
we need our justice system to work. We want to
sit down with the Chief Minister and with Aboriginal leaders
(19:08):
and come up with a solution. But if that doesn't
occur and we can't get the Chief Minister the table,
the only other solution then is to seek that federal intervention.
We don't want to go there, but if it's the
only way to fix what is a broken justice system,
we have to put it on the table.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
Well, NAJA Chair Theresa Row and Acting CEO Anthony Bevin
really appreciate your time this morning. Thank you both very
much for joining me in the studio. Thanks Katie, Thank you, Katie,
thank you
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