August 5, 2024 • 13 mins
As the trial begins its second week, Day 6 began with a cross-examination of ESR forensic scientist, Fiona Matheson, and later the court heard from ESR forensic scientist Nicholas Curno, to discuss DNA evidence.
Last week, the jury heard how police and forensic scientists spent 11 days at the scene.
We already know the Crown isn’t relying too much on forensics done at the scene – but, it’s important for ESR to walk the jury through what they didn’t find, just as much as what they may have.
You can listen to episodes of Accused: The Polkinghorne Trial through The Front Page podcast feed, or find it on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts.
This series is presented and produced by, Chelsea Daniels, with producer Ethan Sills and sound engineer Paddy Fox.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Kiyota. I'm Chelsea Daniels and from the team behind the
front page the New Zealand Herald's daily news podcast, This
is Accused the Polkinghorn Trial. Over the next six weeks,
in conjunction with our usual daily episodes, we'll be bringing
you regular coverage as one of the most high profile
trials of the year makes its way through the High
(00:28):
Court at Auckland. A warning, this podcast contains disturbing content.
Philip Polkinghorn is accused of murdering his wife, Pauline Hannah,
but he's adamant she took her own life. Last week
we heard the Crown's opening address, all of the things
(00:49):
it intends to prove led to the death of the
DHB boss and potentially why. It says polking Horn strangled
his wife as he found it harder to keep his
double life of sex and meth use intact. Over the
next six weeks, we'll hear from friends and family who
will claim the pair's relationship was on shaky ground and
(01:10):
that Hannah was finding it difficult to deal with his
aggression and daily sexual demands. But he says she hung herself.
She had a history of depression and the continued stress
of her high profile work was too much. He maintains
their relationship was loving, quite good, perfect. Last week we
heard from those first on the scene who almost immediately
(01:34):
deemed it suspicious. The rope tied to the upstairs balustrade
was too loose, the tension to lax. But why on
the morning of April fifth, twenty twenty one did police
deem the scene suspicious so quickly? Polkinghorn was cooperative, gave
a statement and explained how he'd found his wife slumped
(01:54):
in a chair in the entrance way after he'd started
on a breakfast of tea and toast. Day six began
with a cross examination of ESR forensic scientist Fiona Matheson,
who started her testimony on Friday or Day five. This
cross examination is a chance for the defense to question
the crown witness. You'll remember last week the jury heard
(02:17):
how police and forensic scientists spent eleven days at the scene.
Defense lawyer Ron Mansfield has suggested forensic scientists were at
the Upland Road scene for an extraordinarily long time. Usually
in a homicide inquiry they're gone after two or three days.
He has characterized their work as a desperate but largely
(02:39):
futile effort to find evidence of a struggle.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
I think on our quick can I said, it's crude
telling it's like an excessive fifty three hours at the address.
Would you have a better figure for me?
Speaker 3 (02:54):
Not without sitting and doing, particularly what you've just done.
Certainly I was the for from Monday through to Sunday.
Some days were longer than others. So yes, potentially it
is close to fifty to sixty.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Hours, and you and I would agree that that is
a very long period of time for a residential address.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
That based on my experiences at the upper end of
the scale for the amount of time I would normally
spend it a scene.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Matheson was at the scene to scour it for clues
as to whether Hannah's death was a suicide or something
more sinister. She was already aware police deemed the scene suspicious.
We already know the Crown isn't relying too much on
forensics done at the scene. Alicia McClintock has already made
that clear in their opening address. But it's important for
(03:49):
ESR to walk the jury through what they didn't find
just as much as what they may have. Mansfield questioned,
matheson on whether she'd found any stain on the bed
and what samples were taken from the guest room where
Hannah had supposedly slept the night before. Mansfield's point here
is that there was a lack of bodily fluids, hairs,
(04:11):
or blood spatter on the carpet in her room or
on the route to where her body was found.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Was there any blood other than that identified?
Speaker 3 (04:23):
The only blood identified in this room was that that
we've just talked about on the sheet. The examinations of
the room included a luminal examination and no blood was
detected on any of the flooring surfaces.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
So no splatter, no smears, no drips, nothing, no blood
was detected.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
A brown stain found on a fitted sheet in Hannah's bedroom,
repeatedly referred to by witnesses last week, was found to
belong to Philip Pulkinghorn, not his wife Pauline Hannah.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
It could have been there for minutes, hours, or days,
or potentially since the item was last washed, and pining
on how well the item is washed, it may not
have been removed and washing, so there's a continuum of
how long it could have been there.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
So in short, it's stopped the pulping horns.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
Blood.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
We'll get that confirmed, but we don't know when it
was deposited and or how long it's been there.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
No, we do not.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
Ron Mansfield pointed out no blood was found on the
pristine white walls of the Polkinghorn home, which is decorated
in various shades of white or cream, or on the
route from Hannah's bedroom to the downstairs area where her
body was found.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
Yes, an examination was carried out both with and without
a light to see whether or not there was any
staining that could be attributed to blood on those walls.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
So first with the naked eye, was any blood scene
on that journey and that cureful examination through that journey.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
No blood was seen by me or my colleague during
those examinations.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
So there was no damage in the bedroom or on
that route that might have been caused by some sort
of fight, assault or the moving of a body. And
we already know from last week's testimony that there was
no drag marks found either. Mansfield foreshadowed some evidence to
be examined later in the trial. During his cross examination
of Matheson, he mentioned, we're going to hear from some
(06:37):
power experts concerning when the washing machine and dryer might
have been turned on. Last week, there was a lot
of tiptoeing around the three slices of bread found in
the toaster. Was it toasted or lightly toasted given the
setting was pictured as being on one. We'll also likely
hear more about the significance of the acrylic toeenaw found
(07:00):
in the washing machine. In amongst women's exercise gear and teetowels,
Mansfield also gave another glimpse into the contents of Polkinghorn's
videoed police interview, which will be played to the court
later in the trial. In asking Matheson about her examination
of the blue ottoman found on its side in the
(07:21):
guest room Hannah had been in the night before her death,
he mentioned Polkinghorn said he used it to reach to
the top cupboard in the wardrobe to fetch three stuffed
animals his wife had requested. These three toys can be
seen in photos on the side table next to the
bed where Hannah had slept in the afternoon's evidence centered
(07:45):
around a dressing gown Hannah was wearing when she died.
It's white, made of terry toweling, one size fits all.
It was stained yellow from urine, which isn't unusual given
just before death or just after a body's muscles relax
and bodily fluids can be discharged from the body. The
(08:07):
court was shown a photo of the gown where it
appears urine was heavily stained across the back at the
bottom of the robe. Mansfield said, if someone was lying
on the ground when the urine was released, then the
urine would go between their legs and perhaps further up
the dressing gown. If someone was seated in a chair
at the time of death, then it would go through
(08:28):
their legs onto the seat, moving down the garment.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
But here, if we look at the photograph, it appears
at the urine staining. If we look at the belt,
is underneath the belt down to the very bottom of
the robe.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
Correct, Yes, there is yellow staining on the what would
be Miss Hannah's left side, towards the base of that front,
and then on her right side there is extensive yellow
staining covering the bulk of that lower side of the
(09:05):
dressing gown.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Matheson said, if Hannah was sitting in a chair when
she died and urinated, you would expect the chair to
also be stained with urine. The seed of the chair
was not swabbed for urine because ESR doesn't have that
kind of chemical test.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
There may be some tests available internationally. I know that
ESR investigated using the main test that was used by
the majority of the laboratories. We found that we got
false positives with hand sanitizers, so that's the test we
have access to. I'm to be fear I'm uncertain of
(09:43):
the availability of other tests.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
But anyway, it wasn't swabbed, so it couldn't later be
tested correct.
Speaker 3 (09:52):
No examination as such, and that for that manner was
carried out on the chair.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
There was no obvious urine below her body, staining where
her body was removed. This testimony is important because of
Polkinghorn's account of finding his wife in a chair. He's
the only person with this account given. By the time
first responders arrived at the scene, she was lying on
the entranceway floor with a duvet over her a pillow
(10:20):
under her head. On re examination from Crown Solicitor Alicia McClintock,
Matheson was asked about a scenario where Hannah died lying down.
She said she's not confident she could say given the
variables she'd have to consider, like how much urine had
been released or the path of it. She's also not
(10:40):
sure she would have seen urine staining on the chair
or floor of the entrance way, and what about under
the chair?
Speaker 3 (10:48):
Did you lock them under the chair as well? Yet, certainly,
as we talked about I was down looking at that
general area, there was no specific staining noted on the
ground in that area.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
The Crown then called ESR forensic scientist Nicholas Kerno, whom
Matheson earlier mentioned would be better place to answer questions
around DNA. Both standard DNA analysis and the male specific
ystr analysis were done. This is where they look for
the Y chromosome only found in males. At the time,
(11:25):
the samples from Hannah's neck were given a weak positive
result and reported as possibly a blood stain. ESR has
since updated its guidelines, meaning this would now be reported
as inconclusive for blood. Kerno went through his analysis of
different samples taken from the Remuwaer home methodically. It included
(11:48):
a sample from the left side of Hannah's neck found
low level DNA from at least two people, explained by
mixing of DNA from Hannah and Polkinghorn. Probable blood from
the inner tip of the belt found in the kitchen
was found to have had low level DNA from two people,
a mix of Hannah and Polkinghorn.
Speaker 4 (12:08):
The DNA detected in the probable blood from the plug
hole could have originated from mister Polkinhorn.
Speaker 3 (12:17):
He also analyze a sample taken from the top of
the plug in that bathroom.
Speaker 4 (12:21):
I did.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
In was it using the standard DNA analysis?
Speaker 4 (12:27):
Yes, belt please, the DNA detector could have originated from
mister Polkinhorn.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
Mansfield asked Kerono why protocols changed? Why is probable now inconclusive?
Kerno said DNA testing is very sensitive and the male
specific test is even slightly more sensitive. They're also not
able to age DNA samples. Mansfield said, so it could
(12:55):
have been there for minutes, hours, or days, or even
much longer than that, to which Kern affirmed yes. The
trial continues tomorrow. You can listen to episodes of Accused
the Polkinghorn Trial through the front Page podcast feed or
(13:15):
find it on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts.
This series is presented and produced by me Chelsea Daniels
with producer Ethan Seles and sound engineer Patty Fox. And
for more coverage of the Polkinghorn trial head to enzidherld
dot co dot enz
Kiyota. I'm Chelsea Daniels and from the team behind the
front page the New Zealand Herald's daily news podcast, This
is Accused the Polkinghorn Trial. Over the next six weeks,
in conjunction with our usual daily episodes, we'll be bringing
you regular coverage as one of the most high profile
trials of the year makes its way through the High
(00:28):
Court at Auckland. A warning, this podcast contains disturbing content.
Philip Polkinghorn is accused of murdering his wife, Pauline Hannah,
but he's adamant she took her own life. Last week
we heard the Crown's opening address, all of the things
(00:49):
it intends to prove led to the death of the
DHB boss and potentially why. It says polking Horn strangled
his wife as he found it harder to keep his
double life of sex and meth use intact. Over the
next six weeks, we'll hear from friends and family who
will claim the pair's relationship was on shaky ground and
(01:10):
that Hannah was finding it difficult to deal with his
aggression and daily sexual demands. But he says she hung herself.
She had a history of depression and the continued stress
of her high profile work was too much. He maintains
their relationship was loving, quite good, perfect. Last week we
heard from those first on the scene who almost immediately
(01:34):
deemed it suspicious. The rope tied to the upstairs balustrade
was too loose, the tension to lax. But why on
the morning of April fifth, twenty twenty one did police
deem the scene suspicious so quickly? Polkinghorn was cooperative, gave
a statement and explained how he'd found his wife slumped
(01:54):
in a chair in the entrance way after he'd started
on a breakfast of tea and toast. Day six began
with a cross examination of ESR forensic scientist Fiona Matheson,
who started her testimony on Friday or Day five. This
cross examination is a chance for the defense to question
the crown witness. You'll remember last week the jury heard
(02:17):
how police and forensic scientists spent eleven days at the scene.
Defense lawyer Ron Mansfield has suggested forensic scientists were at
the Upland Road scene for an extraordinarily long time. Usually
in a homicide inquiry they're gone after two or three days.
He has characterized their work as a desperate but largely
(02:39):
futile effort to find evidence of a struggle.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
I think on our quick can I said, it's crude
telling it's like an excessive fifty three hours at the address.
Would you have a better figure for me?
Speaker 3 (02:54):
Not without sitting and doing, particularly what you've just done.
Certainly I was the for from Monday through to Sunday.
Some days were longer than others. So yes, potentially it
is close to fifty to sixty.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Hours, and you and I would agree that that is
a very long period of time for a residential address.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
That based on my experiences at the upper end of
the scale for the amount of time I would normally
spend it a scene.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Matheson was at the scene to scour it for clues
as to whether Hannah's death was a suicide or something
more sinister. She was already aware police deemed the scene suspicious.
We already know the Crown isn't relying too much on
forensics done at the scene. Alicia McClintock has already made
that clear in their opening address. But it's important for
(03:49):
ESR to walk the jury through what they didn't find
just as much as what they may have. Mansfield questioned,
matheson on whether she'd found any stain on the bed
and what samples were taken from the guest room where
Hannah had supposedly slept the night before. Mansfield's point here
is that there was a lack of bodily fluids, hairs,
(04:11):
or blood spatter on the carpet in her room or
on the route to where her body was found.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Was there any blood other than that identified?
Speaker 3 (04:23):
The only blood identified in this room was that that
we've just talked about on the sheet. The examinations of
the room included a luminal examination and no blood was
detected on any of the flooring surfaces.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
So no splatter, no smears, no drips, nothing, no blood
was detected.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
A brown stain found on a fitted sheet in Hannah's bedroom,
repeatedly referred to by witnesses last week, was found to
belong to Philip Pulkinghorn, not his wife Pauline Hannah.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
It could have been there for minutes, hours, or days,
or potentially since the item was last washed, and pining
on how well the item is washed, it may not
have been removed and washing, so there's a continuum of
how long it could have been there.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
So in short, it's stopped the pulping horns.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
Blood.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
We'll get that confirmed, but we don't know when it
was deposited and or how long it's been there.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
No, we do not.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
Ron Mansfield pointed out no blood was found on the
pristine white walls of the Polkinghorn home, which is decorated
in various shades of white or cream, or on the
route from Hannah's bedroom to the downstairs area where her
body was found.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
Yes, an examination was carried out both with and without
a light to see whether or not there was any
staining that could be attributed to blood on those walls.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
So first with the naked eye, was any blood scene
on that journey and that cureful examination through that journey.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
No blood was seen by me or my colleague during
those examinations.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
So there was no damage in the bedroom or on
that route that might have been caused by some sort
of fight, assault or the moving of a body. And
we already know from last week's testimony that there was
no drag marks found either. Mansfield foreshadowed some evidence to
be examined later in the trial. During his cross examination
of Matheson, he mentioned, we're going to hear from some
(06:37):
power experts concerning when the washing machine and dryer might
have been turned on. Last week, there was a lot
of tiptoeing around the three slices of bread found in
the toaster. Was it toasted or lightly toasted given the
setting was pictured as being on one. We'll also likely
hear more about the significance of the acrylic toeenaw found
(07:00):
in the washing machine. In amongst women's exercise gear and teetowels,
Mansfield also gave another glimpse into the contents of Polkinghorn's
videoed police interview, which will be played to the court
later in the trial. In asking Matheson about her examination
of the blue ottoman found on its side in the
(07:21):
guest room Hannah had been in the night before her death,
he mentioned Polkinghorn said he used it to reach to
the top cupboard in the wardrobe to fetch three stuffed
animals his wife had requested. These three toys can be
seen in photos on the side table next to the
bed where Hannah had slept in the afternoon's evidence centered
(07:45):
around a dressing gown Hannah was wearing when she died.
It's white, made of terry toweling, one size fits all.
It was stained yellow from urine, which isn't unusual given
just before death or just after a body's muscles relax
and bodily fluids can be discharged from the body. The
(08:07):
court was shown a photo of the gown where it
appears urine was heavily stained across the back at the
bottom of the robe. Mansfield said, if someone was lying
on the ground when the urine was released, then the
urine would go between their legs and perhaps further up
the dressing gown. If someone was seated in a chair
at the time of death, then it would go through
(08:28):
their legs onto the seat, moving down the garment.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
But here, if we look at the photograph, it appears
at the urine staining. If we look at the belt,
is underneath the belt down to the very bottom of
the robe.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
Correct, Yes, there is yellow staining on the what would
be Miss Hannah's left side, towards the base of that front,
and then on her right side there is extensive yellow
staining covering the bulk of that lower side of the
(09:05):
dressing gown.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Matheson said, if Hannah was sitting in a chair when
she died and urinated, you would expect the chair to
also be stained with urine. The seed of the chair
was not swabbed for urine because ESR doesn't have that
kind of chemical test.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
There may be some tests available internationally. I know that
ESR investigated using the main test that was used by
the majority of the laboratories. We found that we got
false positives with hand sanitizers, so that's the test we
have access to. I'm to be fear I'm uncertain of
(09:43):
the availability of other tests.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
But anyway, it wasn't swabbed, so it couldn't later be
tested correct.
Speaker 3 (09:52):
No examination as such, and that for that manner was
carried out on the chair.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
There was no obvious urine below her body, staining where
her body was removed. This testimony is important because of
Polkinghorn's account of finding his wife in a chair. He's
the only person with this account given. By the time
first responders arrived at the scene, she was lying on
the entranceway floor with a duvet over her a pillow
(10:20):
under her head. On re examination from Crown Solicitor Alicia McClintock,
Matheson was asked about a scenario where Hannah died lying down.
She said she's not confident she could say given the
variables she'd have to consider, like how much urine had
been released or the path of it. She's also not
(10:40):
sure she would have seen urine staining on the chair
or floor of the entrance way, and what about under
the chair?
Speaker 3 (10:48):
Did you lock them under the chair as well? Yet, certainly,
as we talked about I was down looking at that
general area, there was no specific staining noted on the
ground in that area.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
The Crown then called ESR forensic scientist Nicholas Kerno, whom
Matheson earlier mentioned would be better place to answer questions
around DNA. Both standard DNA analysis and the male specific
ystr analysis were done. This is where they look for
the Y chromosome only found in males. At the time,
(11:25):
the samples from Hannah's neck were given a weak positive
result and reported as possibly a blood stain. ESR has
since updated its guidelines, meaning this would now be reported
as inconclusive for blood. Kerno went through his analysis of
different samples taken from the Remuwaer home methodically. It included
(11:48):
a sample from the left side of Hannah's neck found
low level DNA from at least two people, explained by
mixing of DNA from Hannah and Polkinghorn. Probable blood from
the inner tip of the belt found in the kitchen
was found to have had low level DNA from two people,
a mix of Hannah and Polkinghorn.
Speaker 4 (12:08):
The DNA detected in the probable blood from the plug
hole could have originated from mister Polkinhorn.
Speaker 3 (12:17):
He also analyze a sample taken from the top of
the plug in that bathroom.
Speaker 4 (12:21):
I did.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
In was it using the standard DNA analysis?
Speaker 4 (12:27):
Yes, belt please, the DNA detector could have originated from
mister Polkinhorn.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
Mansfield asked Kerono why protocols changed? Why is probable now inconclusive?
Kerno said DNA testing is very sensitive and the male
specific test is even slightly more sensitive. They're also not
able to age DNA samples. Mansfield said, so it could
(12:55):
have been there for minutes, hours, or days, or even
much longer than that, to which Kern affirmed yes. The
trial continues tomorrow. You can listen to episodes of Accused
the Polkinghorn Trial through the front Page podcast feed or
(13:15):
find it on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts.
This series is presented and produced by me Chelsea Daniels
with producer Ethan Seles and sound engineer Patty Fox. And
for more coverage of the Polkinghorn trial head to enzidherld
dot co dot enz
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