September 12, 2024 • 64 mins
Originally due to run for six weeks, the trial of Philip Polkinghorne is now in its seventh week.
The former Auckland eye surgeon is accused of murdering his wife, Pauline Hanna, who was found dead on 5 April, 2021.
He maintains she took her own life.
More witnesses from the defence took the stand to discuss their thoughts on how Hanna died, and the risk factors that could have pushed her to take her own life.
New emails from Hanna were read to the court, and the question on if she used her phone the night before she died saw one Crown witness returned to the stand.
You can listen to episodes of Accused: The Polkinghorne Trial through The Front Page podcast feed, or find it on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts.
This series is presented and produced by, Chelsea Daniels, with producer Ethan Sills and sound engineer Dan Goodwin. Additional production support by Helen King. Additional reporting by Craig Kapitan and George Block.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Kiota, I'm Chelsea Daniels and from the team behind the
front page. The New Zealand Herald's daily news podcast, This
is Accused The Polkinghorn trial over a series of weeks,
in conjunction with our usual daily episodes, will be bringing
you regular coverage as one of the most high profile
trials of the year makes its way through the High
(00:29):
Court at Auckland. A warning, this podcast contains disturbing content.
Originally due to run for six weeks, the trial of
Philip Polkinghorn is now in its seventh week. The former
Auckland eye surgeon is accused of murdering his wife, Pauline Hannah,
who was found dead on April fifth, twenty twenty one.
(00:53):
He maintains she took her own life. More witnesses from
the defense took to the stand to discuss their thoughts
on how Hannah died and the risk factors that could
have pushed her to take her own life. New emails
from Hannah were read to the court, and the question
on if she used her phone on the night before
she died saw one Crown witness return to the stand.
(01:31):
Day twenty seven saw Professor Stephen Cordner continue his evidence
He is the defense pathologist whose evidence began on day
twenty six. Under questioning from defense lawyer Ron Mansfield, Cordner
continued running through his findings related to Hannah's body. He
confirmed there's no evidence of sexual activity or a sexual
(01:53):
assault from the pathology report or photographs he's examined. At
the time of death. Cordner said that mobility remains for
twelve to twenty four hours. Three to six hours before
Hannah was found is a fair estimate for the time
of death, he said, but it's not always cut or dry.
There was still mobility between the time the body is
(02:14):
at the scene on April fifth, twenty twenty one, and
the autopsy the following day. There was no specific injuries
indicative of a past assault. Mansfield then turned to earlier
evidence of one of the pathologists called by the Crown,
doctor Martin Sage, who was called to discuss the evidence
of the pathologist who undertook the autopsy, doctor Keelak Kesher.
(02:38):
Sage had said the lack of marks on the neck
are uncommon, as was the fact the mark on one
side of her neck disappeared from the time her body
was found to the autopsy the next day. Cordn had disagreed.
He said it's a well recognized phenomenon. Little or no
mark can be left by a ligature in a hanging.
He said he doesn't think it's common, but his I'm
(03:00):
not sure any pathologist has a good reading on how
common or uncommon it is. Sage was then asked about
the fact that mark was an artifact by the time
of the post mortem and said he thinks it doesn't
tell us much. Cordner says, it tells us one thing
that the interaction between the belt and the neck was static.
(03:20):
If there had been relative movement between the belt and
the neck, there would have been something in the way
of an abrasion. Earlier, Cordner said the lack of neck
abrasions went against the strangulation theory, given strangulation homicides a violent,
dynamic affairs where the ligature is likely to move around.
Mansfield then asked Cordner for his views on Keelak and
(03:42):
Sage both ruling that Hannah's cause of death was neck compression.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
So, as you know, doctor Kellix have been reported and
has report that death was as a result of neck compression,
and so doctor Sage was being asked for it might
be vague or could that be criticized as being vague?
Speaker 3 (04:04):
I think was the point. What's your response to that?
Speaker 4 (04:11):
Well, I agree with the way his.
Speaker 5 (04:15):
Summarize it, which is it neither he nor doctor Kelak
prepared to say what sort of neck compassion, So they.
Speaker 4 (04:26):
Leave either.
Speaker 5 (04:30):
Suicidal hanging or homicidal ligature manual strangulation open.
Speaker 4 (04:38):
As possibilities.
Speaker 5 (04:39):
So as we've already said, I think my view is
that it's reasonable, and it's.
Speaker 4 (04:48):
My view to go a bit further.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
And what would you what would you say.
Speaker 5 (04:53):
The cause of dempos the finding support hanging and there's
no findings just support homicidal ligature or manual strangulation. And
that's the way we approach all the hangings that we
deal with.
Speaker 4 (05:13):
So that's what I think a reasonable to part here is.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Mansfield then asked Cordner about several parts of the case
that are considered suspicious. Cordner said, there isn't anything suspicious
about the ligature not circling the entire neck, nor is
there anything unusual about the scene being tampered with.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
One for the question I have for you, and it
might be about a leab apparent already if you were
responsible for this case by way of the attending pathologist,
how would you have reported the cause of death?
Speaker 4 (05:52):
I think.
Speaker 5 (05:55):
If I had been responsible for this case, would have
concluded that because of death was hanging, because the findings
fit with hanging and there are no findings to support
the alternative of homicidal ligature or manual strangulation.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
And yeah, what do you think about the absence of
those injuries, meaning it needs to be left open?
Speaker 5 (06:31):
Well, if we added into that where you've you know
that somehow you've you know, we've had the discussion abat
the absence of findings and whether that might be compatible
with an arm around the front of the neck. And
(06:52):
if we allow that possibility, then we'd be not coming
to conclusions of hanging in all the cases we do,
because we'd have to say in answer to that question, well,
you know, in this in every case of hanging, there's
a possibility that it's a person has been done away
within that surptitious way.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
It was then Auckland Crown Solicitor Alicia McClintock's turn to
begin her cross examination of Professor Stephen Cordner. Cordner said
that his answers are grounded in forensic pathology, and he
can't answer on factors such as if Hannah was suicidal
the night before her death. Cordner confirms he knows doctor Sage.
McClintock asked if Sage is the leading forensic pathologist together
(07:38):
with doctor Simon Stables.
Speaker 6 (07:40):
Oh.
Speaker 5 (07:40):
Look, I said in my report that you know, I
think everybody involved is providing their professional evidence and advice
and contribution, so you know, perfectly for people to have
(08:00):
different point of view and other people will work out
which point of view.
Speaker 7 (08:04):
Is preferred, of course, And I think doctor Sage told
us that he's seen eleven I think hangings this year in.
Speaker 8 (08:15):
Something like eight hundred overall.
Speaker 7 (08:18):
So he's seeing this in his daily practice, including at
current point and time. And that's your understanding of his
his He's.
Speaker 4 (08:29):
A very experienced fantic pathologist.
Speaker 7 (08:31):
Yes, and so really it reduces to a narrowish I guess,
although important issue is the extent to which the pathology
can truly help on the distinction between whether this case
involves homicidal net compression or suicidal net compression.
Speaker 8 (08:52):
Again, that's the number of the thing.
Speaker 9 (08:53):
Isn't it that.
Speaker 4 (08:55):
Yes, I've said that.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Before mcclentock and Corner went back and forth a two
centimeter bruise on Hannah's temple. Cordner said earlier it was
a non specific injury that could have occurred anytime in
the twenty four hours before death, McClintock said. Cordner said
earlier the bruise could be the result of a fall
into something, but a punch or other manual blow can't
(09:19):
be excluded. But McClintock said there's nothing to positively suggest
a full versus a punch, hence the conclusion non specific injury,
said Cordner. He said quantifying force for this bruise is difficult.
Speaker 7 (09:36):
He used the term trivial, I think in relation to
other injuries. So can we take from that that this
one the level of force to cause it, and you'll
use more than what the trivial A snitch agreat with
that you told us in evidence, and again this is
at two five, three three of your honor's notes. It's
actually quite difficult to bruise the scalp with a punch
because it's such, you know, it's pretty thick sort of skin,
(09:59):
and a punch usually a broader sort of area, a
broader area of contact.
Speaker 8 (10:04):
But I cannot distinguish what sort of impact do you
remember saying that?
Speaker 7 (10:07):
Yes, so can we agree, professor that if it is
a punch, appreciating the qualifications about that.
Speaker 8 (10:12):
Then it's been a decent one.
Speaker 4 (10:16):
I think it's probably reasonable.
Speaker 5 (10:17):
And I think, you know, probably is a bit easier
to get such a burse, you know, knocking into a
wall or door or something like that.
Speaker 7 (10:26):
Sure, but if it's a punch on the level of
force you have described, it's a decent one.
Speaker 5 (10:32):
I think a decent punch would be a fair description.
Speaker 4 (10:35):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
McClintock next went onto the wound to Hannah's nose bridge,
described by Mansfield as a small graze. The autopsy pathologist,
doctor Kesher, had said there was a hemorrhage associated with
the injury. Having seen it both at the scene and
at the autopsy, Cordner said he accepts there was a hemorrhage.
He earlier said he believed the injury could have been
(10:58):
caused after death, similar to the injury to Hannah's ear.
Cordner said that the bleeding of the nose injury increases
the likelihood it occurred while Hannah was alive, but he
didn't rule out the injury being suffered after death. The
jury then asked a question on this, which was read
out by McClintock. On the photograph of Hannah's nose, to
(11:20):
the layman, it looks bruised.
Speaker 10 (11:23):
The pathologist says, it's not bruised.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
Can you please explain the bruised appearance, they asked. Cordner
said that while the nose looks slightly swollen, that's not
bruising and may have been the shape of Hannah's nose.
He said, the purple color is post mortem development resulting
from congestion. That's when you block the veins, but the
blood is still being pumped into the head via the arteries,
(11:48):
which require more pressure to obstruct. They then moved on
to the constellation of bruises to Hannah's right arm. Mansfield
pulled a photo of the bruises out on day twenty six,
where the bruises weren't seen at the Upland road scene.
Cordner earlier testified that he doesn't believe they occurred prior
to death, but under questioning from McClintock, Cordner said that
(12:11):
it's fair to say he doesn't know for certain when
the injury occurred. If it didn't happen in life, you said,
there's more to discuss, is that what you said, asks McClintock.
Speaker 8 (12:23):
If it did happen in life, there's more to discuss.
You see.
Speaker 4 (12:30):
It's yes, yep, And.
Speaker 8 (12:33):
Presumably that's because a grip to the arm and life.
Speaker 7 (12:35):
What you mean is, well, look, that possibly is an assault,
but it's possibly something else. Yes, and we know that
it's not yellow, so that at least gives us that
time frame. So if it did, and this is a
matter for the jury again, isn't it But if it
did happen prior to death, we would now have three
(12:59):
injury is within a similar time frame, either prior to
or about the time of death. It's also possible that
this one, based on your analysis, could have occurred another way.
Speaker 8 (13:15):
Set fifth.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Cordner and Kesha both agree that an abrasion to Hannah's
back likely occurred after death. They also agreed that blood
from Hannah's ear likely wasn't an injury either. The blood
from the ear seems apparent on the pillow on which
she was lying on after her body had been moved.
Cordner said, he said, that's the best conclusion. McClintock then
(13:40):
showed Cordner photographs of Hannah's hands adorned with rings. She said,
there's no obvious sign of blood on the underside of
her hands.
Speaker 5 (13:49):
Yeah, I think you want to resist the temptation of
time to come to too many specific conclusion in a
circumstance where you know the predictability of where bits and
pieces are moving turn farm and around in between, as
(14:10):
the dynamism of moving a dead body from one place
turnout may be.
Speaker 4 (14:17):
Happened.
Speaker 5 (14:18):
So the possibility, the way I have thought about this
is just possibly at some point while a body's being moved,
the hand has somehow got close to the air. That's
the way I've been thinking about it.
Speaker 7 (14:34):
And if that's happened though, somehow the blood's ended up
in between her fingers, yes, but nowhere else that we
can sit.
Speaker 5 (14:44):
Yeah, well, well, I really, I really don't think you
should be skeptical about that.
Speaker 7 (14:50):
But that's what's happened based on this is the only
place we have blood is in between her fingers and
not otherwise on her hand, And.
Speaker 8 (15:08):
As a pathologist not interpreting the rest of the evidence.
Speaker 7 (15:13):
As a pathologist, you can't discount that their hand's been
cleaned and that blood's been missed.
Speaker 5 (15:23):
Oh, as a pathologist, but you know, I imagine they
looked for that sort of possibility where they're fibers or
anything on it that might have suggested that.
Speaker 8 (15:32):
As a pathologist, you can't discount it, though.
Speaker 9 (15:35):
Can you.
Speaker 5 (15:35):
No.
Speaker 4 (15:36):
No, Well, I don't.
Speaker 5 (15:39):
Nothing to specifically suggest it to me as a pathologist.
Speaker 4 (15:45):
But if you're saying to me, could that hand have been.
Speaker 5 (15:49):
You know, as a sort of factual thing cleaned, I
can't say no.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Onto the horizontal impression on her neck, Cordner said, impartial suspension,
you don't get the clear upward ligature mark.
Speaker 10 (16:03):
Instead, it's broadly horizontal.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
So the mark scene on Hannah's neck is perfectly compatible
with a partial suspension hanging, he said. Cordner agreed when
McClintock asked whether a homicide victim's ability to resist an
assault may be affected by the body's position they're in
at the time, Cordner agreed, someone who could do a
corroded or choker hold would be able to do it
(16:27):
to someone on their front, and that hold can cause
unconsciousness within ten to twelve seconds, but the hold would
need to be sustained.
Speaker 5 (16:36):
Perhaps another qualifier of your question might be you mentioned,
you know, provided the person you had to do it,
if they weren't intending to kill the person, they're obviously
less likely to get injured. But you know, you might
think that someone who's trying to kill someone might apply
(16:59):
more force to that arm around the neck, and they've
more more likely to leave injuries. And that accord with
my own sort of view that in death associated with
that it would be more likely to see injuries.
Speaker 7 (17:16):
You know, it just very much depends on what's happening
at the time, doesn't.
Speaker 4 (17:19):
It depends on what's happening at the time. Yes.
Speaker 7 (17:22):
If a person has been surprised by an assailant or asleep,
for example, and someone manages to get pressure on their neck,
that person is you've told us, could lose consciousness really
quite quickly, couldn't they.
Speaker 5 (17:44):
Yes, People of course can wake up very quickly, even
more quickly.
Speaker 7 (17:48):
Yes, it's surprised or asleep that.
Speaker 8 (17:55):
Might affect their ability to resist.
Speaker 4 (18:00):
Data. It's Mike.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Referencing Cordner's earlier reference of a case where an eleven
year old was drugged and unable to fight back from
an assault McClintock said that Hannah did have twice the
recommended level of the sedative sleeping pill zopper clone in
his system, so it was self sedated and had drunk
alcohol as well. Cordner said it was a pretty low
(18:24):
level of alcohol.
Speaker 7 (18:26):
The degree of sedation and a victim is certainly a
relevant factor to the degree of resistance that they can
put up, and to use your terminology, whether that victim
is unable to fight back, it's a factor, isn't it.
Speaker 4 (18:45):
It is a factor.
Speaker 5 (18:46):
But I think you know to complete the discussion, I
mean you mentioned the possibility that you know, if you
take those sorts of dug large zopper climb for a
period of time, you get used to them. And so
not clear to me that you know, because it seems
she has been taking them for a long time, that
(19:08):
she would necessarily be significantly affected by them. And if
she's awake, they're not doing their purpose, are they.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
McClintock then asked, you don't know whether Pauline Hannah was asleep,
and you don't know what body position she was in
when she died. Cordner said the expectation would be that
such a person would wake rapidly, instantly, and would do
anything in their utmost power to resist and escape from
the position they're in. And if there is a great
(19:38):
disparity in strength, then that's a relevant factor too. On
Hannah's potential tolerance to ZOPPA clone, McClintock said, we don't
know that for sure because it wasn't prescribed to her,
instead being prescribed in the name of Polkinghorn. Cordner said
it may or may not have had an effect. He
also reiterated that it would have been difficult for one
(20:00):
person to move a body around even if they were
in a fireman's hold. Asked what the positive pathological findings
for suicide that aren't also explained by a homicide, Cordner said,
it's a combination of the signs of the compression of
the neck plus the static mark on the front of
the neck. In circumstances, whether lividity is compatible with the
(20:21):
deceased having been seated onto the small fresh wound found
on Polkinghorn's forehead, Cordner says had been told that was
an injury to do with moving Hannah's body down from
the chair, as Polkinghorn told police he did. On the
instructions of the one one one call taker.
Speaker 7 (20:39):
It could be a nail mark. And I think you
said as much yourself in your report, didn't you?
Speaker 4 (20:48):
Yes, And.
Speaker 7 (20:52):
The studies that you have looked at in relation to this,
I think you see this about thirteen out of twenty
of the cases you looked at did.
Speaker 8 (21:05):
Have nail marks or some other nail.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
Oh, there is injuries.
Speaker 4 (21:10):
There is a reported.
Speaker 5 (21:13):
You know, there's a paper in the electric looking at
injuries to people alleged to be assailants in manual or
ligature strangulation cases. And as you said, thirteen out of
twenty had some injuries.
Speaker 7 (21:28):
You accept that that injury based on what you saw,
putting aside what explanation there may or may not be
about it, that that injury could be a nail mark
on his forehead.
Speaker 4 (21:44):
I couldn't rule it out, non.
Speaker 8 (21:47):
May I suggest? Is the case on the pathology with
many things in this.
Speaker 5 (21:53):
Particularly that there is further discussion to be had about
it if you want to. But I mean, as you've
asked the question, can I rule that out as being
a result of a a nail.
Speaker 4 (22:09):
The enter is no.
Speaker 5 (22:10):
But the photo of that injury is virtually another one
that I've seen virtually useless.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
Cordner said he would think more of it if there
was a single, ill defined injury on his forehead. The
Crown ended their cross examination. Defense lawyer Ron Mansfield then
addressed McClintock's suggestion that Hannah was sedated due to Zopper
clone a sleeping pill. McClintock said she's not suggesting at
all Hannah was sedated to the point of unconsciousness, but
(22:41):
possibly to the point it had affected her ability to resist.
Mansfield says he wanted to make sure the Crown case
wasn't pivoting to suggest Hannah was unconscious or unable to
respond at all. Turning to the witness, Mansfield asked how
quickly someone would wake if they were assaulted. Cordner said
very quickly, and they would began resisting almost immediately. He
(23:05):
also said there's still the chance of injuries to both
the assailant and the victim, and would have expected that
and Hannah given her age. Asked again about the blood
found between Hannah's fingers, Cordner said it should not be viewed.
Speaker 10 (23:20):
As a suspicious circumstance.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
The next defense witness was doctor Olav Nielsen, who has
a Master of Criminology and a PhD from the University
of Sydney. He's also a consultant psychiatrist and works with
the homeless. Nielsen has a particular professional interest in depression
and suicidal risk, he said, is published about forty papers
(23:47):
on suicide and it's a big part of his work
with the homeless. He confirmed he is aware of the
Crown case against Polkinghorn and he's reviewed his April fifth,
twenty twenty one police interview transcript, the toxicology report, the
long Lands recording, and some medical notes from Hannah's GP
and prescription details. Under questioning from defense lawyer Ron Mansfield,
(24:12):
Neilson said she definitely had an alcohol use disorder, though
it may have lessened in recent years.
Speaker 10 (24:20):
A bottle of wine a night for.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Over a decade, as she described around twenty thirteen, was
a hazardous level for a woman. Neilson says alcohol is
excellent at relieving anxiety until it wears off when anxiety worsens.
He notes Hannah was on fluexitine aka prozac for about
twenty years, and so how does.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
The use of alcohol with that medication?
Speaker 2 (24:48):
Are there any factors or are there any complexities? That
we need to be aware of in relation to the
use of alcohol with those medications.
Speaker 9 (24:57):
Well, just rendering them less effective.
Speaker 11 (24:59):
For basically, it's just an arm wrestle where the alcohol's winning.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
She was prescribed medications to treat alcohol use disorders. There
was also a prescription for diazepam to mitigate with dural symptoms.
He agreed it might be relevant that Hannah had consumed
red wine the night before she was found dead in
the morning. The alcohol renders the antidepressant medication ineffective, countering
(25:24):
any beneficial effect.
Speaker 10 (25:25):
From her long term use. He says.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
Hannah was also on weight loss medication, including one which
was then removed from the market. It was replaced with
fentamine about twenty ten, which Hannah then began taking.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
And what's fit to mein what can you help us
or tell us.
Speaker 11 (25:43):
About that particular drone. Look, it's basically an amphetamine. It's
a lowish dose, you know, fifteen milligrams. They come in
a thirty milligram tablet as well. But they work exactly
this name as every other amphetamine you know dex amphetamine
for ADHD, you know amphetamine or methamphetamine.
Speaker 9 (26:03):
They working in the same way.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
So that particular medication would how would that work in
combination with the medication you've told us she's on in
relation to depression and anxiety.
Speaker 9 (26:21):
Yeah, well, again it's it's not a very good practice.
I'd have to say.
Speaker 11 (26:24):
I don't mean to criticize a colleague, but the firstly,
if you try and prescribe phetamine or fluoxetine when a
person's already on it, you're you're your prescribing program will
say there's a contry indication. So there is a potentially
dangerous contra indication.
Speaker 3 (26:44):
People's there, what's a contra indication?
Speaker 11 (26:47):
Perhaps there's an interaction. I should have said, it should
have been the word I used, a potentially dangerous interaction
in that the phantomine can cause serotonin syndrome, which is
a sort of an excess serotonin in people who. I mean,
it's a rare and obviously you know there's plenty of
people on that combination, but even so it's that's hazardous and.
Speaker 3 (27:11):
What does that mean?
Speaker 9 (27:12):
By way of that come.
Speaker 11 (27:14):
Yeah, well it's a look, it causes a dangerous delirium
with a sort of an autonomic and.
Speaker 9 (27:18):
Again I don't want to get technical, but.
Speaker 11 (27:21):
Where there's too much serotonin and people become confused and
have rabbit heartbeat and can even die. This is what,
for example, kills young people at music festivals. It's the
serotonin syndrome from taking MDMA for example.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
Neilson said that the combination of drugs was not ideal
and that Hannah clearly developed a tolerance to several of
them due to long term use, and it didn't work
well with her mental health issues. In particular, the combination
of Hannah's chronic depression and the combination of Zoppo clone
and alcohol are very dangerous for suicide, he said.
Speaker 10 (28:00):
He said that.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
It's clear that Hannah was very perfectionist, and we've heard
that from others in the trial as well. He said
high achievers can take their own lives, even if unsuccessful
people are more likely to, and that it's not uncommon
for people to mask their true mental state and feelings
from those around them, such as colleagues. Nielsen says only
(28:22):
thirty to forty percent of people leave suicide notes he
didn't see any evidence of Hannah having seen a psychiatrist
or psychologist on any long term basis. Based on Hannah's
alleged previous attempt as told to the court by her
sister Tracy, and Hannah's work pressures, and the cocktail of
(28:42):
drugs and alcohol that put Hannah in a higher risk group.
Nielson confirmed he's not here to confirm anything about whether
she committed suicide. He's just here to speak about the
factors that very greatly increased her risk compared to other people.
(29:05):
For coverage of other news events in New Zealand, listen
to the front page The Herald's daily news podcast wherever
you get your podcasts. The start of week seven of
the trial was delayed due to an illness of a
jury member, so Day twenty eight started on the Tuesday
with the defense calling doctor Christopher Milroy. He appeared via
(29:29):
video link from Canada. He's the second high profile pathologist
the defense have called to give evidence. Doctor Milroy confirmed
he's been a colleague of doctor Stephen Cordner for about
thirty years. He's been called by the defense to comment
on Cordner's evidence. Following comments earlier in the trial by
a Crown witness, doctor Martin Sage, suggested Cordner was trying
(29:52):
too hard to contend the death was a suicide, but
Milroy disagreed.
Speaker 12 (29:58):
I would still say that the most likely cause of
death in this case was hanging with partial suspension features.
Speaker 6 (30:06):
But we would therefore give the cause of death as hanging.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
Thank you, and having reviewed this case, do you have
any concerns with their opinion.
Speaker 12 (30:19):
I don't have concerns with giving an opinion of hanging.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
Milroy has also seen the evidence given by all three
previous pathologists who have all given evidence in this trial.
He went on to explain why he supported Cordner that
Hannah's death was self inflicted.
Speaker 12 (30:37):
I really would expect if it was manual strangulation through throttling,
to see external injuries and internal injuries, and particularly in
a lady of miss Hannah's age, damage to the voice
box structures and or hyoid bone, because they are more
(31:01):
frag brittle.
Speaker 6 (31:04):
As we get older. We lay down their cartilage when
we're young.
Speaker 12 (31:08):
So it's typical not to see anything in young people,
even in homicidal strangulation in terms of damage to the
voice box cartilage and the hyoid bone, which is this
bone that's just above.
Speaker 6 (31:22):
But as you get older.
Speaker 12 (31:24):
Income they become more like bone, and they become more brittle.
They become more like chalk that can snap. And so
if you compress someone manually, I would have expected to
have seen fractures.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
Milroy added for homicide or ligature strangulations, you would usually
see resistance and expect to see external injuries. Mansfield moved
on to Hannah's use of the sleeping pill Zoba clone.
You'll remember analysis of her blood and hair showed the
presence of the drug. Milroy said it can be difficult
(32:02):
to know what effect a drug might have based on
a post mortem. He explained, even though the trial had
heard earlier it was twice the normal dose, it was
still within the therapeutic range. He added, sleeping pills don't
act in the same way as anesthetic drugs.
Speaker 12 (32:20):
The thing about sedating drugs is that they're intended to
help you go to sleep, but it doesn't mean that
they're an anesthetic. It doesn't mean that you render someone unconscious.
They fall asleep, and then people can be woken up
from the sleep, and I would still expect the person
to fight back with this degree of zopiclone. Inordinarily we
(32:44):
would not consider it in any way relevant to the
cause of death, but in terms of its effects, it
can't be.
Speaker 6 (32:56):
It can't.
Speaker 12 (32:57):
I mean, the person may have taken help them go
to sleep.
Speaker 6 (33:01):
They may be a little bit more.
Speaker 12 (33:02):
Groggy than they would otherwise be if they weren't on it,
but they may be very tolerant because they've been on
it for six months and one would expect them to
wake up if attacked.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
Under cross examination by Crown Solicitor Alicia McClintock, Milroy confirmed
he provided a report on August twenty first, twenty twenty four,
after doctor Stephen Cordener's approach was questioned by doctor Martin
Sage during the Crown case. This was well into the trial.
During her cross examination, McClintock asked if he's familiar with
(33:38):
the term non fatal strangulation. Milroy explained in England he
would occasionally see cases of people had been strangled and survived.
McClintock asked if these non fatal strangulations can often leave
little or no non fatal injuries. Yes, he said, but
he's also seen non fatal cases that look worse than
(34:01):
fatal cases. The other caveat is we don't dissect the
necks of survivors.
Speaker 8 (34:07):
Thank you.
Speaker 7 (34:07):
In non fatal strangulation, would you agree as a common
feature of violence against women? Yes, and is it also
well none in the medical profession that non fatal strangulation
is a key marker for the escalation of domestic violence.
Speaker 8 (34:24):
Yes, are you aware.
Speaker 7 (34:27):
Of a British Medical Journal study indicating that it raised
the risk of someone becoming a victim of a homicide
or serious future harm by around seven and a half
at times in victim survivors.
Speaker 12 (34:40):
I'm not specifically aware of that study, but I accept
and I think it's fair to point out that almost
all the cases I dealt with clinically have been female
victims with a male perpetrator.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
You'll remember, earlier in the trial, Hannah's family friends John
and Pheasant Reardon told the court that she told them
Pulkinghorn had previously put his hands on her neck as
a strangulation. Thread her questioning moved on to the differing
opinions of pathologists called by both sides of the case.
Speaker 7 (35:18):
You're not suggesting doctor Sage hasn't also been fair and scientific,
nor are you suggesting that of doctor Kesha.
Speaker 6 (35:26):
Is it right? That's correct.
Speaker 7 (35:28):
It's just that they look at the possibilities aspect differently
to Professor Coordiner and what you've told us today, don't they?
Speaker 9 (35:40):
Well?
Speaker 12 (35:41):
And I say that in my report, I said that
this is a case where people are looking at possibilities.
Speaker 8 (35:46):
Could we put it this way?
Speaker 7 (35:47):
The pathology is obviously a very important aspect and we
must take care with its conclusions.
Speaker 8 (35:54):
But you're not saying, and.
Speaker 7 (35:56):
I think you've made this clear, But just so everyone's clear,
you're not saying pathology is the one source of truth here.
Speaker 6 (36:03):
No, No, absolutely not.
Speaker 1 (36:05):
McClintock questioned his comments on Zoppo clone and how Hannah
might have developed a tolerance.
Speaker 7 (36:11):
One of the concerns about zopper clone is its use.
It is a drug used to drug other people. I'm
not suggesting that's what's happened here at all, but that's
one of its concerns. Is a particularly combined with alcohol,
it can be used in that way to cause excess sedation.
Speaker 9 (36:34):
Correct, Well, yeah.
Speaker 12 (36:37):
It's not one of the ones I'm familiar as familiar
with as some other drugs, but and I could see
that that could be the case.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
Melroy added the assessment of SR toxicologist Helen Paulson was
fair that Hannah had taken the drug over a six
month period, though the frequency and level of use is
hard to say. McClintock then asked, is sooperclone sometimes used
to sedate people and how quickly someone sedated on zopperclone
(37:08):
would wake up.
Speaker 12 (37:09):
What I would say is that the concentrations were not high.
In other words, there's no evidence of significant excess.
Speaker 6 (37:20):
Of being taken. But I concede that.
Speaker 12 (37:27):
In any drug, in any individual, unless we know exactly
how they would perform, we are to a certain extent
speculating both ways in one of them, both in terms
of it's both in terms of its sedation or non sedation.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
Neutrality came into question.
Speaker 12 (37:45):
Because I think the pathology certainly favors suicidal hanging in
the context of suicide versus homicide because of the known
fine soft ligature, partial suspension hanging, and the absence of.
Speaker 6 (38:08):
Injury on the neck.
Speaker 12 (38:11):
And therefore, in my opinion, when you look at it,
it much more strongly favors suicide ober homicide. So you
couldn't say it was neutral. It's not a fifty to
fifty coin toss.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
Before finishing, McClintock asked if strangulations staged as a suicide
are even a thing. Milroy replied, that's correct. Defense lawyer
Ron Mansfield had questions in response around the use of
the term possibilities.
Speaker 6 (38:41):
I've never seen a report on a.
Speaker 12 (38:45):
Hanging, suicidal hanging, or self inflicted hanging where someone has
put in the caveat I can't exclude homicidal on net compression.
Speaker 6 (38:55):
I've never seen it.
Speaker 12 (38:56):
And just to give some context, in the last fourteen years,
my unit has done nearly a thousand hangings, of which
a proportion will be will be partial suspension.
Speaker 1 (39:08):
Milroe said he's only ever seen one case of an
attempted concealed homicide where someone had tried to make it
look like a suicide. In his career, he's examined six
hundred or seven hundred self inflicted hangings. The next witness
(39:31):
was Atakhan Shaho. He's a director and senior technician at
a company called Our Computer Guy. The company specializes in
data security and medical software integration, predominantly in health and law.
Shaho has a lengthy career working with Apple as a
software developer and with NASA, as well as with medical systems.
(39:54):
He was asked to forensically examine the material disclosed to
the defense from the police as part of the investigation. Specifically,
he looked at the cloned Celebrate phone data and the
laptop data. Shaho confirms he's familiar with cell Bright and Axiom,
the software used by New Zealand police to clone and
(40:16):
examine the phones and computers.
Speaker 2 (40:19):
You can use Celebrate or Exiom dex is either a
mobile phone or a laptop. Or if you know what
you're doing, you can gain xcess to a mobile phone
or a laptop even if you're not appraised of the
relevant passwords exactly.
Speaker 13 (40:37):
But you do, you do lose the ability to so
for example, on an iPhone if it's locked to iCloud,
and some people might know this that if you don't
know the pin code or you don't know the I
Cloud password, you can't get into the data. And that's
because Apple has a secure enplay in their iCloud and
that protects the contacts, the calendars, and the usually the
(41:01):
text messages and other facets of the data on the database.
Because Apple have a unique encryption service, that not that
they can no longer break into if asked too. And
there's many references to the FBI wanting access to phones
of people with who passed away and they want their fingerprint,
and an Apple kind of in getting there and they
(41:22):
choose not to have a back door.
Speaker 1 (41:24):
In June this year, Chahou traveled to New Zealand to
obtain the information needed for his forensic IT analysis and
was physically handed Hannah's phone and her middlemore HP laptop.
He said police weren't able to get into the laptop
because they didn't know the password. He asked to try
and circumvent the password, but was denied. He created his
(41:48):
own clone of Hannah's iPhone and was also provided a
range of electronic devices belonging to polkinghorn Mansfield then questioned
Chaho about how Celebrate software works.
Speaker 13 (42:01):
It then takes the abatim copy of all files, logs
and databases off the phone and creates essentially a Celebrate
database that can be analyzed. So if you can try
and imagine breaking into a filing cabinet and taking all
the files and the information that are in there, regardless
(42:24):
of how they're stored, and they're in a searchable way
that someone can actually go in and look for the
information that they're looking for.
Speaker 3 (42:32):
So as far as information on the phone itself.
Speaker 2 (42:35):
Should be able to secure a copy of that information.
Speaker 13 (42:39):
Yes, So a phone is made up of lots and
lots of databases and log files, and those they're designed
by the manufacturer and by the software developers, and that
information is structured, and Celebrate takes that information, analyzes it
and puts it into a number of different ways and criterias.
(43:02):
That allows us to look at the information in human speak.
Speaker 2 (43:08):
And then what about information stored in the cloud, Because
the phone.
Speaker 13 (43:15):
Stores cloud information on itself as well, sometimes you can have.
Speaker 4 (43:20):
A copy of that.
Speaker 3 (43:21):
If I could give an example.
Speaker 13 (43:23):
One of the phones that was interrogated, the four to
seven Triple zero, which I believe was the iPhone twalk pro,
only had three contacts on it. But when I done deeper,
I found over a thousand contacts that were in the
cloud that weren't on the phone. And what that tells
me is the version of the operating system protected the
(43:45):
iCloud from the Celebrate and in such, the Celebrate extraction
didn't have those nine hundred and ninety seven odd contacts
in its extraction.
Speaker 2 (43:58):
Does that mean that some material and the cloud can't
be excessed via Celebright correct?
Speaker 1 (44:05):
Chaho confirmed one of his tasks was to look for
communications shedding light on Hannah's well being and her communications
with Polkinghorn via mobile phone and email. He provided at
least a year's worth of text messages between the couple.
The trial then started to hear about emails that Shahoe analyzed.
(44:27):
He mentions an email which Hannah initially emailed to herself
before sending it to her brother Bruce, and it related
to the care of their mother and appears to be
around the time she was about to be moved from
the family farm near Havelock North to a care home.
The email urges Bruce to respect that the property is
her family home.
Speaker 2 (44:48):
We gave one thousand percent support to you both and
Mum when the arrangement was being made to take over
the property, and incidentally head two on that occasion broken
between you and tracing I Dash. We do not regret
that decision. I know you have worked on the property.
(45:08):
That is what life is about, working to build up
your future furp and I have worked extremely hard to
where I have got to in life too.
Speaker 3 (45:20):
You are not the only ones.
Speaker 2 (45:22):
I also arge you to think about what you said
about me. That was brutal and hurtful and I have
not deserved it, particularly your replication that I am a
poor aunt to Rose and in brackets, and I did
say Jacob and the brackets.
Speaker 3 (45:38):
You know, this whole episode with Mum.
Speaker 2 (45:40):
Has been very difficult for me as well as sorry
as well, And yet I have had to hold the
line between you and Tracy. I don't think if you
get that, you seem to think it's only difficult for
you and Shelley.
Speaker 1 (45:56):
The defense earlier looked at the tensions between the Hannah's
siblings over the care of her family home. Bruce, as
you'll remember earlier in the trial, testified for the Crown,
while Tracy, the youngest sister, testified for the defense. Another
email to Polkinghorn's son Ben and his wife Bridget, around
(46:17):
the time of the first COVID cases, had Hannah Wright
about being asked to run the Northern Region's supply chain
and had been working all day and emailing into the night.
It is unbelievable, what is happening?
Speaker 10 (46:31):
She wrote.
Speaker 1 (46:32):
There was another email from April twenty twenty during the
COVID lockdown, which Mansfield read out to the court.
Speaker 2 (46:39):
But I worked fifteen slat six hours times four.
Speaker 3 (46:43):
Over easter, and yet I am tired and not myself.
Speaker 2 (46:48):
But I've had a horrible day starting with I'm not
going to name that person whom I have disappointed.
Speaker 3 (46:57):
I'm never good enough despite my effits. Today is the
twenty fifth day in a.
Speaker 2 (47:01):
Row, but I'm not adding any value. I want desperately
to tell someone and cry and ask for help, but
everyone seems to think I'm amazing and does not want
to know that I have foibles or failings. I've tried
to bring it up with Fillip, but he tells me
he hasn't got go time to go over negative tonight
(47:24):
and brack and that's his equals.
Speaker 3 (47:26):
He has enough. I might stand on my own two feet,
but I don't know.
Speaker 2 (47:31):
Today if I have two feet or what they look like.
So I've had three glasses of wine and a beautiful
dinner thanks to PJP, but I don't know what to
do with myself dot dot dot.
Speaker 3 (47:45):
So I will go.
Speaker 2 (47:46):
To bed and not sleep, very unusual for me, and
it builds up.
Speaker 3 (47:51):
Who knows what might follow? Have to tell.
Speaker 2 (47:54):
Someone, even if no one but God ever sees this.
Speaker 1 (47:59):
In court, Polkinghorn was seen sobbing as the email was
read out. More emails saw Hannah talk about her mother
no longer recognizing her. In August twenty twenty while one
around the twenty twenty election had Hannah fearing how far
our taxes are going to be ramped up if Jacinder
Aardern wins. Another email read by Mansfield from Hannah to
(48:23):
family says my life is insane and her role is
incredibly difficult and lonely. Alicia McClintock began her cross examination
asking about differences between email signatures and disparities in font
and color. Shaho later clarified, under further questioning from Mansfield
(48:45):
that signatures can change when formatting is stripped after someone replies,
and that it's possible to have different email signatures when
sending from different devices. Was the last email Polkinghorn received
from Hannah at ten forty seven pm on April fourth,
twenty twenty one. McClintock asked he agreed. McClintock asked if
(49:08):
he was asked to have a look at Polkinghorn's deleted searches.
I don't believe I was, said Shaho. He also didn't
see communication between Polkinghorn and Madison Ashton in his searches.
Day twenty nine saw Auckland Crown Solicitor Alicia McClintock recall
(49:30):
police digital forensic analyst June Lee, who was called at
the end of the Crown case some weeks ago. Lee
was stood down part way through defense lawyer Ron Mansfield's
cross examination.
Speaker 10 (49:43):
To recap the trial.
Speaker 1 (49:45):
Has heard Hannah's phone only looked up two contacts, Polkinghorn
and the daughter of their family friend at four am
the morning she died. Prosecutors say it was an automatic
security process. Says it was Hannah drafting a message to
Polkinghorn and the young woman. Lee has said that Hannah's
(50:06):
phone could not have been used. McClintock began her questioning
saying when Lee gave evidence some time ago, the issue
was whether entries in Hannah's phone's activity log with the
result of background activity in Hannah's phone's identity look up service,
an automatic security feature or someone drafting a text message.
Speaker 10 (50:29):
Lee has since met with Atikhan Shaho.
Speaker 8 (50:33):
And did you show mister Shaho at the d if you.
Speaker 7 (50:40):
The data that you were looking at and taken through
your explanation as to what you think is happening with
those log entries?
Speaker 5 (50:47):
Yes?
Speaker 7 (50:49):
And are there still is you understand it some areas
of disagreement between yourself and mister sharho as to what
these entries. Okay, So just to recap for the benefit
of everybody, you've told us that in your opinion, this
(51:12):
is a background activity rather than user activity, and that
in your opinion, nobody is using the phone at the
time of those entries.
Speaker 8 (51:26):
Have I that's fear.
Speaker 6 (51:27):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (51:28):
When the phone becomes idle at ten forty seven pm
the night before the morning of April fifth, there's no
trace of anything happening. Li said at ten forty seven pm,
there are signs of the phone being locked. To access
it again, you'd need to unlock it, for example via password,
(51:49):
and someone would need to click into the messaging app.
Speaker 10 (51:52):
He says.
Speaker 1 (51:53):
He reiterated several times that his view that Hannah did
not use her phone after that, and the Identity Lookup
service in fact, is an automatic background process which only
runs when in use. It can't be used as evidence
that Hannah was drafting a message the morning of her death.
(52:15):
McClintock said police have found the identity Lookup service running
on April eight, three days after Hannah Diedly confirmed that
indicates you don't have to be using the phone for
the identity Lookup service to run and if somebody else
is using it, like police, there would be evidence of that.
Speaker 10 (52:37):
He said, with exhaustive.
Speaker 1 (52:39):
References to other earlier data on Polkinghorn's phone, suggests Defense
it analyst Attikan Shaho was mistaken to suggest anomalies in
the data police used to show the phone went into
airplane mode. Just as Graham Lang asked a question about
the series of ons and offs in the airplane mode data,
(53:02):
Lee says phones work off user habits, So if you
regularly turn airplane mode on and off, the phone would
regularly check that.
Speaker 14 (53:12):
So I'm actually speaking between the ten twenty four in
the morning. In general, there was no log activity or whatsoever.
So no user interaction.
Speaker 8 (53:23):
Yeah, none at all in that timeframe.
Speaker 7 (53:25):
No, disagree with mister Shaho that this could be Pauline
Hanna going into the phone to draft messages even if
they weren't sent.
Speaker 4 (53:35):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (53:36):
Defense lawyer Ron Mansfield then began his cross examination of Lee,
first asking about his background before digging into the process
of how Lee works and how he receives phones as
a digital forensic analyst and the process from there.
Speaker 2 (53:52):
I take from your background that you're not a registered
Apple developer.
Speaker 3 (53:59):
No, and Apple doesn't work.
Speaker 2 (54:04):
With Celebrate or Axiom by way of license or contract
or even informally.
Speaker 9 (54:11):
Do they?
Speaker 6 (54:12):
I don't believe. So.
Speaker 2 (54:14):
It sounds like prior to joining the police as a
technician and then as an analyst, your background has been
with Samsung.
Speaker 3 (54:28):
In relation to answering user inquiries.
Speaker 9 (54:32):
Correct, yes, but I don't really understand your question here.
Speaker 14 (54:38):
What what what relevancy does they have my background to
the knowledge around the log entries?
Speaker 2 (54:44):
Well, because there's a disagreement between you and mister in
relation to how the Apple operating system works.
Speaker 14 (54:54):
It's not really Apple how Apple system works. It's more
like the there's a database ext out of the Apple
phone would just exhibit that we actually tooking the database
around it.
Speaker 9 (55:07):
You know where I'm coming from.
Speaker 1 (55:09):
Mansfield and Lee went back and forth on how the
Apple server connects to a phone. Lee said he disagrees
with Shahou that the Apple server doesn't connect randomly, but
only at their request of a user. There weren't other
background events happening with Hannah's phone, but Lee said he
can't be sure the phone isn't going through all the
(55:30):
contacts at once when these background events are occurring. He
then took leave for the day, but what would turn
on day thirty. The defense's next witness was another case
of deja vus, Olav Nielsen, the Sydney psychiatrist earlier called
(55:51):
by the defense. He returned for cross examination by Crown
Solicitor Alicia McClintock. Nielsen reiterated an earlier point that a
previous suicide attempt means there's an increased risk of up
to one hundred times greater of suicide in the future
according to research.
Speaker 7 (56:09):
What records, if any, were you given of a hospital
admission following an attempt at suicide for Paul and Hannah?
Speaker 9 (56:17):
No, there was none. There's no admissions.
Speaker 11 (56:19):
Just the reference the referral to the to the crisis
team was the only records that I had.
Speaker 8 (56:26):
Yes, that's that.
Speaker 7 (56:27):
Suicidal thoughts though, isn't it not plans and not an attempt?
Speaker 11 (56:33):
The crisis tam, Yeah, I guess it's an informed plan.
Isn't it to concresh into a lorry? It was that
that was in the twenty thirty December nineteen, Yes.
Speaker 7 (56:43):
And so my question is the only evidence that you
were given about anything to do with an attempt?
Speaker 8 (56:49):
The statement of Tracy Hannah.
Speaker 6 (56:53):
Correct, right, and.
Speaker 7 (56:54):
So it's obviously for the jury whether they accept Tracy
Hannah's evidence or not. But there's no medical evidence that
you were given underpinning an attempt at suicide for Pauline Hannah.
Speaker 6 (57:09):
Was there.
Speaker 11 (57:11):
Of medical evidence of an episode of deliberate self harm?
Speaker 9 (57:16):
No, No, no medical records.
Speaker 1 (57:18):
Neilson said that Hannah's behavior and the lead up to
her death is not necessarily the most important. These decisions
are often very impulsive, he said, and follow weeks or
months of stress or depression. McClintock said. Neilson talked about
her unusual behavior over the weekend before her death, referencing
(57:41):
her going to the tip.
Speaker 7 (57:42):
Are you suggesting that a trip to the tip is
indicative of.
Speaker 8 (57:48):
Some sort of mental health deterioration.
Speaker 11 (57:53):
Not not any of itself, but for example, people who
give away possessions because they've made a decision to kill themselves,
that would be a sign. For example, people clearing out,
you know, personal items because that has been a thought
on their mind might be a sign.
Speaker 9 (58:12):
Again, you know, I don't know that, but.
Speaker 11 (58:14):
That's it's just one factor that may have been relevant,
I think is.
Speaker 7 (58:18):
She's taking her all of her wildly goods to the
tap might we might have an alarm, But in that instance,
what we know is she's taking some old curtains to
the tap.
Speaker 1 (58:27):
There was also the taking of a meal to some
old friends, Nielsen said, which he understood to be out
of character and later confirmed that came from Polkinghorn's statement
to police, and he is reliant on what he said
about her suicide risk factors. On the various drugs Hannah
was on at the time of her death, Nielsen said,
(58:48):
we don't know about her tolerance. He earlier testified that
the combination of Zoppa clone and alcohol would have caused
a disinhibiting effect.
Speaker 7 (58:58):
When you say there was a loss of them in
that particular night. For that, you again, you're having to
rely on the idea that she has indeed committed suicide
necessarily in order to say that, aren't you, because there's
no evidence of her being disinhibited in the lead.
Speaker 8 (59:12):
Up to that art.
Speaker 11 (59:14):
No, No, it's a predictable effect of you know, a
bottle of peano and no New Zealand pen four and
several tablets probably of zopper clone, not just one tablet,
given the blood alcohol, the zopper clone content, and.
Speaker 7 (59:31):
Where do you get the evidence from that she drank
the bottle of wine.
Speaker 11 (59:36):
No, No, there was a that was well, I'm assuming
that's what it was, because.
Speaker 9 (59:41):
That was a Dr. Polkinhorn's son, So we're back to.
Speaker 8 (59:44):
The we have to rely on him for that.
Speaker 1 (59:48):
On Johannah's appearance and Neilson's comments that she might have
been hiding issues via her good presentation, you remember telling.
Speaker 7 (59:57):
Us that, yes, how many times did you meet her?
Speaker 9 (01:00:06):
That's a I have never met her.
Speaker 8 (01:00:10):
Obviously, he can't.
Speaker 7 (01:00:14):
I mean it's possible people could mask things, right, but
you can't possibly say that that's what's happening with her
presenting herself well, can you? Because looking God gives some
people confidence in themselves, doesn't it.
Speaker 6 (01:00:34):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (01:00:35):
Nilsen also acknowledges Hannah had responded positively after talking about
suicidal thoughts to a crisis team in twenty nineteen, and
that the opening of a new vaccination clinic in the
week after Hannah died would have been a source of
pride for her despite the stress of her job. McClintock
later asked about building offender's risk profiles for violent offending.
Speaker 7 (01:01:00):
One of the key things that you would look at,
I assume, is whether there is evidence of prior violence, yes,
and in a male offender, and any evidence that was
put in front of you of a non fatal strangulation
incident of a female that would be a red flag
(01:01:25):
for a violence profile for an offender.
Speaker 9 (01:01:30):
Look.
Speaker 11 (01:01:31):
Yes, the circumstances of previous violence in addition to a
history of the previous violence would be would be relevant obviously.
Speaker 7 (01:01:40):
And drug use would also be something that would have
to be factored into an offender risk profile, wouldn't it.
Speaker 9 (01:01:52):
Yeah, Yes, of course that's probably the largest, the strongest
risk factor, the previous.
Speaker 11 (01:02:01):
Behavior and substance utse you know, both because of the
antisocial nature of substance abuse and the disinhibiting effect of
substances to recap.
Speaker 1 (01:02:12):
The couple's family, friends the Readans both said Hannah had
described Pulkinghorn having previously placed his hands on her neck
as part of what they understood to be a strangulation threat.
Nielsen reiterated presenting well doesn't mean you can't suffer from
depression or commit suicide, and Hannah not disclosing her thoughts
(01:02:35):
to colleagues or family doesn't mean she wasn't considering things.
He also said the mix of drugs and alcohol could
have taken away Hannah's fear of death.
Speaker 2 (01:02:47):
You've obviously had an opportunity to consider my lender of
friends questioning by way of cross examination. Does that move
you from the opinion you experienced chief regarding miss Hannah
presenting with a number of risk factors for suicide?
Speaker 9 (01:03:08):
That's right now.
Speaker 11 (01:03:09):
I stand by that original opinion, which is based on.
Speaker 9 (01:03:14):
My experience and research.
Speaker 1 (01:03:17):
After the day's testimony, just as Graham Lang then addressed
the jury saying that due to the trial extending into
a seventh week and with closing statements not due until
the eighth week, now one juror's prior commitments means she's
been stood down so as to not put pressure on
the jury to deliver a verdict. The jury of eleven
(01:03:40):
now eight women and three men, are due to start
deliberations next week. You can listen to episodes of Accused
the Polkinghorn Trial through the Front Page podcast feed or
find it on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts.
(01:04:04):
This series is presented and produced by me Chelsea Daniels,
with producer Ethan Siles and sound engineer Patti Fox. Additional
production support by Helen King additional reporting from the Heralds
Craig Capitan and George Block, and for more coverage of
the Polkinghorn trial, head to Enzidhrold dot co dot nz.
Kiota, I'm Chelsea Daniels and from the team behind the
front page. The New Zealand Herald's daily news podcast, This
is Accused The Polkinghorn trial over a series of weeks,
in conjunction with our usual daily episodes, will be bringing
you regular coverage as one of the most high profile
trials of the year makes its way through the High
(00:29):
Court at Auckland. A warning, this podcast contains disturbing content.
Originally due to run for six weeks, the trial of
Philip Polkinghorn is now in its seventh week. The former
Auckland eye surgeon is accused of murdering his wife, Pauline Hannah,
who was found dead on April fifth, twenty twenty one.
(00:53):
He maintains she took her own life. More witnesses from
the defense took to the stand to discuss their thoughts
on how Hannah died and the risk factors that could
have pushed her to take her own life. New emails
from Hannah were read to the court, and the question
on if she used her phone on the night before
she died saw one Crown witness return to the stand.
(01:31):
Day twenty seven saw Professor Stephen Cordner continue his evidence
He is the defense pathologist whose evidence began on day
twenty six. Under questioning from defense lawyer Ron Mansfield, Cordner
continued running through his findings related to Hannah's body. He
confirmed there's no evidence of sexual activity or a sexual
(01:53):
assault from the pathology report or photographs he's examined. At
the time of death. Cordner said that mobility remains for
twelve to twenty four hours. Three to six hours before
Hannah was found is a fair estimate for the time
of death, he said, but it's not always cut or dry.
There was still mobility between the time the body is
(02:14):
at the scene on April fifth, twenty twenty one, and
the autopsy the following day. There was no specific injuries
indicative of a past assault. Mansfield then turned to earlier
evidence of one of the pathologists called by the Crown,
doctor Martin Sage, who was called to discuss the evidence
of the pathologist who undertook the autopsy, doctor Keelak Kesher.
(02:38):
Sage had said the lack of marks on the neck
are uncommon, as was the fact the mark on one
side of her neck disappeared from the time her body
was found to the autopsy the next day. Cordn had disagreed.
He said it's a well recognized phenomenon. Little or no
mark can be left by a ligature in a hanging.
He said he doesn't think it's common, but his I'm
(03:00):
not sure any pathologist has a good reading on how
common or uncommon it is. Sage was then asked about
the fact that mark was an artifact by the time
of the post mortem and said he thinks it doesn't
tell us much. Cordner says, it tells us one thing
that the interaction between the belt and the neck was static.
(03:20):
If there had been relative movement between the belt and
the neck, there would have been something in the way
of an abrasion. Earlier, Cordner said the lack of neck
abrasions went against the strangulation theory, given strangulation homicides a violent,
dynamic affairs where the ligature is likely to move around.
Mansfield then asked Cordner for his views on Keelak and
(03:42):
Sage both ruling that Hannah's cause of death was neck compression.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
So, as you know, doctor Kellix have been reported and
has report that death was as a result of neck compression,
and so doctor Sage was being asked for it might
be vague or could that be criticized as being vague?
Speaker 3 (04:04):
I think was the point. What's your response to that?
Speaker 4 (04:11):
Well, I agree with the way his.
Speaker 5 (04:15):
Summarize it, which is it neither he nor doctor Kelak
prepared to say what sort of neck compassion, So they.
Speaker 4 (04:26):
Leave either.
Speaker 5 (04:30):
Suicidal hanging or homicidal ligature manual strangulation open.
Speaker 4 (04:38):
As possibilities.
Speaker 5 (04:39):
So as we've already said, I think my view is
that it's reasonable, and it's.
Speaker 4 (04:48):
My view to go a bit further.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
And what would you what would you say.
Speaker 5 (04:53):
The cause of dempos the finding support hanging and there's
no findings just support homicidal ligature or manual strangulation. And
that's the way we approach all the hangings that we
deal with.
Speaker 4 (05:13):
So that's what I think a reasonable to part here is.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Mansfield then asked Cordner about several parts of the case
that are considered suspicious. Cordner said, there isn't anything suspicious
about the ligature not circling the entire neck, nor is
there anything unusual about the scene being tampered with.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
One for the question I have for you, and it
might be about a leab apparent already if you were
responsible for this case by way of the attending pathologist,
how would you have reported the cause of death?
Speaker 4 (05:52):
I think.
Speaker 5 (05:55):
If I had been responsible for this case, would have
concluded that because of death was hanging, because the findings
fit with hanging and there are no findings to support
the alternative of homicidal ligature or manual strangulation.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
And yeah, what do you think about the absence of
those injuries, meaning it needs to be left open?
Speaker 5 (06:31):
Well, if we added into that where you've you know
that somehow you've you know, we've had the discussion abat
the absence of findings and whether that might be compatible
with an arm around the front of the neck. And
(06:52):
if we allow that possibility, then we'd be not coming
to conclusions of hanging in all the cases we do,
because we'd have to say in answer to that question, well,
you know, in this in every case of hanging, there's
a possibility that it's a person has been done away
within that surptitious way.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
It was then Auckland Crown Solicitor Alicia McClintock's turn to
begin her cross examination of Professor Stephen Cordner. Cordner said
that his answers are grounded in forensic pathology, and he
can't answer on factors such as if Hannah was suicidal
the night before her death. Cordner confirms he knows doctor Sage.
McClintock asked if Sage is the leading forensic pathologist together
(07:38):
with doctor Simon Stables.
Speaker 6 (07:40):
Oh.
Speaker 5 (07:40):
Look, I said in my report that you know, I
think everybody involved is providing their professional evidence and advice
and contribution, so you know, perfectly for people to have
(08:00):
different point of view and other people will work out
which point of view.
Speaker 7 (08:04):
Is preferred, of course, And I think doctor Sage told
us that he's seen eleven I think hangings this year in.
Speaker 8 (08:15):
Something like eight hundred overall.
Speaker 7 (08:18):
So he's seeing this in his daily practice, including at
current point and time. And that's your understanding of his
his He's.
Speaker 4 (08:29):
A very experienced fantic pathologist.
Speaker 7 (08:31):
Yes, and so really it reduces to a narrowish I guess,
although important issue is the extent to which the pathology
can truly help on the distinction between whether this case
involves homicidal net compression or suicidal net compression.
Speaker 8 (08:52):
Again, that's the number of the thing.
Speaker 9 (08:53):
Isn't it that.
Speaker 4 (08:55):
Yes, I've said that.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Before mcclentock and Corner went back and forth a two
centimeter bruise on Hannah's temple. Cordner said earlier it was
a non specific injury that could have occurred anytime in
the twenty four hours before death, McClintock said. Cordner said
earlier the bruise could be the result of a fall
into something, but a punch or other manual blow can't
(09:19):
be excluded. But McClintock said there's nothing to positively suggest
a full versus a punch, hence the conclusion non specific injury,
said Cordner. He said quantifying force for this bruise is difficult.
Speaker 7 (09:36):
He used the term trivial, I think in relation to
other injuries. So can we take from that that this
one the level of force to cause it, and you'll
use more than what the trivial A snitch agreat with
that you told us in evidence, and again this is
at two five, three three of your honor's notes. It's
actually quite difficult to bruise the scalp with a punch
because it's such, you know, it's pretty thick sort of skin,
(09:59):
and a punch usually a broader sort of area, a
broader area of contact.
Speaker 8 (10:04):
But I cannot distinguish what sort of impact do you
remember saying that?
Speaker 7 (10:07):
Yes, so can we agree, professor that if it is
a punch, appreciating the qualifications about that.
Speaker 8 (10:12):
Then it's been a decent one.
Speaker 4 (10:16):
I think it's probably reasonable.
Speaker 5 (10:17):
And I think, you know, probably is a bit easier
to get such a burse, you know, knocking into a
wall or door or something like that.
Speaker 7 (10:26):
Sure, but if it's a punch on the level of
force you have described, it's a decent one.
Speaker 5 (10:32):
I think a decent punch would be a fair description.
Speaker 4 (10:35):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
McClintock next went onto the wound to Hannah's nose bridge,
described by Mansfield as a small graze. The autopsy pathologist,
doctor Kesher, had said there was a hemorrhage associated with
the injury. Having seen it both at the scene and
at the autopsy, Cordner said he accepts there was a hemorrhage.
He earlier said he believed the injury could have been
(10:58):
caused after death, similar to the injury to Hannah's ear.
Cordner said that the bleeding of the nose injury increases
the likelihood it occurred while Hannah was alive, but he
didn't rule out the injury being suffered after death. The
jury then asked a question on this, which was read
out by McClintock. On the photograph of Hannah's nose, to
(11:20):
the layman, it looks bruised.
Speaker 10 (11:23):
The pathologist says, it's not bruised.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
Can you please explain the bruised appearance, they asked. Cordner
said that while the nose looks slightly swollen, that's not
bruising and may have been the shape of Hannah's nose.
He said, the purple color is post mortem development resulting
from congestion. That's when you block the veins, but the
blood is still being pumped into the head via the arteries,
(11:48):
which require more pressure to obstruct. They then moved on
to the constellation of bruises to Hannah's right arm. Mansfield
pulled a photo of the bruises out on day twenty six,
where the bruises weren't seen at the Upland road scene.
Cordner earlier testified that he doesn't believe they occurred prior
to death, but under questioning from McClintock, Cordner said that
(12:11):
it's fair to say he doesn't know for certain when
the injury occurred. If it didn't happen in life, you said,
there's more to discuss, is that what you said, asks McClintock.
Speaker 8 (12:23):
If it did happen in life, there's more to discuss.
You see.
Speaker 4 (12:30):
It's yes, yep, And.
Speaker 8 (12:33):
Presumably that's because a grip to the arm and life.
Speaker 7 (12:35):
What you mean is, well, look, that possibly is an assault,
but it's possibly something else. Yes, and we know that
it's not yellow, so that at least gives us that
time frame. So if it did, and this is a
matter for the jury again, isn't it But if it
did happen prior to death, we would now have three
(12:59):
injury is within a similar time frame, either prior to
or about the time of death. It's also possible that
this one, based on your analysis, could have occurred another way.
Speaker 8 (13:15):
Set fifth.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Cordner and Kesha both agree that an abrasion to Hannah's
back likely occurred after death. They also agreed that blood
from Hannah's ear likely wasn't an injury either. The blood
from the ear seems apparent on the pillow on which
she was lying on after her body had been moved.
Cordner said, he said, that's the best conclusion. McClintock then
(13:40):
showed Cordner photographs of Hannah's hands adorned with rings. She said,
there's no obvious sign of blood on the underside of
her hands.
Speaker 5 (13:49):
Yeah, I think you want to resist the temptation of
time to come to too many specific conclusion in a
circumstance where you know the predictability of where bits and
pieces are moving turn farm and around in between, as
(14:10):
the dynamism of moving a dead body from one place
turnout may be.
Speaker 4 (14:17):
Happened.
Speaker 5 (14:18):
So the possibility, the way I have thought about this
is just possibly at some point while a body's being moved,
the hand has somehow got close to the air. That's
the way I've been thinking about it.
Speaker 7 (14:34):
And if that's happened though, somehow the blood's ended up
in between her fingers, yes, but nowhere else that we
can sit.
Speaker 5 (14:44):
Yeah, well, well, I really, I really don't think you
should be skeptical about that.
Speaker 7 (14:50):
But that's what's happened based on this is the only
place we have blood is in between her fingers and
not otherwise on her hand, And.
Speaker 8 (15:08):
As a pathologist not interpreting the rest of the evidence.
Speaker 7 (15:13):
As a pathologist, you can't discount that their hand's been
cleaned and that blood's been missed.
Speaker 5 (15:23):
Oh, as a pathologist, but you know, I imagine they
looked for that sort of possibility where they're fibers or
anything on it that might have suggested that.
Speaker 8 (15:32):
As a pathologist, you can't discount it, though.
Speaker 9 (15:35):
Can you.
Speaker 5 (15:35):
No.
Speaker 4 (15:36):
No, Well, I don't.
Speaker 5 (15:39):
Nothing to specifically suggest it to me as a pathologist.
Speaker 4 (15:45):
But if you're saying to me, could that hand have been.
Speaker 5 (15:49):
You know, as a sort of factual thing cleaned, I
can't say no.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Onto the horizontal impression on her neck, Cordner said, impartial suspension,
you don't get the clear upward ligature mark.
Speaker 10 (16:03):
Instead, it's broadly horizontal.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
So the mark scene on Hannah's neck is perfectly compatible
with a partial suspension hanging, he said. Cordner agreed when
McClintock asked whether a homicide victim's ability to resist an
assault may be affected by the body's position they're in
at the time, Cordner agreed, someone who could do a
corroded or choker hold would be able to do it
(16:27):
to someone on their front, and that hold can cause
unconsciousness within ten to twelve seconds, but the hold would
need to be sustained.
Speaker 5 (16:36):
Perhaps another qualifier of your question might be you mentioned,
you know, provided the person you had to do it,
if they weren't intending to kill the person, they're obviously
less likely to get injured. But you know, you might
think that someone who's trying to kill someone might apply
(16:59):
more force to that arm around the neck, and they've
more more likely to leave injuries. And that accord with
my own sort of view that in death associated with
that it would be more likely to see injuries.
Speaker 7 (17:16):
You know, it just very much depends on what's happening
at the time, doesn't.
Speaker 4 (17:19):
It depends on what's happening at the time. Yes.
Speaker 7 (17:22):
If a person has been surprised by an assailant or asleep,
for example, and someone manages to get pressure on their neck,
that person is you've told us, could lose consciousness really
quite quickly, couldn't they.
Speaker 5 (17:44):
Yes, People of course can wake up very quickly, even
more quickly.
Speaker 7 (17:48):
Yes, it's surprised or asleep that.
Speaker 8 (17:55):
Might affect their ability to resist.
Speaker 4 (18:00):
Data. It's Mike.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Referencing Cordner's earlier reference of a case where an eleven
year old was drugged and unable to fight back from
an assault McClintock said that Hannah did have twice the
recommended level of the sedative sleeping pill zopper clone in
his system, so it was self sedated and had drunk
alcohol as well. Cordner said it was a pretty low
(18:24):
level of alcohol.
Speaker 7 (18:26):
The degree of sedation and a victim is certainly a
relevant factor to the degree of resistance that they can
put up, and to use your terminology, whether that victim
is unable to fight back, it's a factor, isn't it.
Speaker 4 (18:45):
It is a factor.
Speaker 5 (18:46):
But I think you know to complete the discussion, I
mean you mentioned the possibility that you know, if you
take those sorts of dug large zopper climb for a
period of time, you get used to them. And so
not clear to me that you know, because it seems
she has been taking them for a long time, that
(19:08):
she would necessarily be significantly affected by them. And if
she's awake, they're not doing their purpose, are they.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
McClintock then asked, you don't know whether Pauline Hannah was asleep,
and you don't know what body position she was in
when she died. Cordner said the expectation would be that
such a person would wake rapidly, instantly, and would do
anything in their utmost power to resist and escape from
the position they're in. And if there is a great
(19:38):
disparity in strength, then that's a relevant factor too. On
Hannah's potential tolerance to ZOPPA clone, McClintock said, we don't
know that for sure because it wasn't prescribed to her,
instead being prescribed in the name of Polkinghorn. Cordner said
it may or may not have had an effect. He
also reiterated that it would have been difficult for one
(20:00):
person to move a body around even if they were
in a fireman's hold. Asked what the positive pathological findings
for suicide that aren't also explained by a homicide, Cordner said,
it's a combination of the signs of the compression of
the neck plus the static mark on the front of
the neck. In circumstances, whether lividity is compatible with the
(20:21):
deceased having been seated onto the small fresh wound found
on Polkinghorn's forehead, Cordner says had been told that was
an injury to do with moving Hannah's body down from
the chair, as Polkinghorn told police he did. On the
instructions of the one one one call taker.
Speaker 7 (20:39):
It could be a nail mark. And I think you
said as much yourself in your report, didn't you?
Speaker 4 (20:48):
Yes, And.
Speaker 7 (20:52):
The studies that you have looked at in relation to this,
I think you see this about thirteen out of twenty
of the cases you looked at did.
Speaker 8 (21:05):
Have nail marks or some other nail.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
Oh, there is injuries.
Speaker 4 (21:10):
There is a reported.
Speaker 5 (21:13):
You know, there's a paper in the electric looking at
injuries to people alleged to be assailants in manual or
ligature strangulation cases. And as you said, thirteen out of
twenty had some injuries.
Speaker 7 (21:28):
You accept that that injury based on what you saw,
putting aside what explanation there may or may not be
about it, that that injury could be a nail mark
on his forehead.
Speaker 4 (21:44):
I couldn't rule it out, non.
Speaker 8 (21:47):
May I suggest? Is the case on the pathology with
many things in this.
Speaker 5 (21:53):
Particularly that there is further discussion to be had about
it if you want to. But I mean, as you've
asked the question, can I rule that out as being
a result of a a nail.
Speaker 4 (22:09):
The enter is no.
Speaker 5 (22:10):
But the photo of that injury is virtually another one
that I've seen virtually useless.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
Cordner said he would think more of it if there
was a single, ill defined injury on his forehead. The
Crown ended their cross examination. Defense lawyer Ron Mansfield then
addressed McClintock's suggestion that Hannah was sedated due to Zopper
clone a sleeping pill. McClintock said she's not suggesting at
all Hannah was sedated to the point of unconsciousness, but
(22:41):
possibly to the point it had affected her ability to resist.
Mansfield says he wanted to make sure the Crown case
wasn't pivoting to suggest Hannah was unconscious or unable to
respond at all. Turning to the witness, Mansfield asked how
quickly someone would wake if they were assaulted. Cordner said
very quickly, and they would began resisting almost immediately. He
(23:05):
also said there's still the chance of injuries to both
the assailant and the victim, and would have expected that
and Hannah given her age. Asked again about the blood
found between Hannah's fingers, Cordner said it should not be viewed.
Speaker 10 (23:20):
As a suspicious circumstance.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
The next defense witness was doctor Olav Nielsen, who has
a Master of Criminology and a PhD from the University
of Sydney. He's also a consultant psychiatrist and works with
the homeless. Nielsen has a particular professional interest in depression
and suicidal risk, he said, is published about forty papers
(23:47):
on suicide and it's a big part of his work
with the homeless. He confirmed he is aware of the
Crown case against Polkinghorn and he's reviewed his April fifth,
twenty twenty one police interview transcript, the toxicology report, the
long Lands recording, and some medical notes from Hannah's GP
and prescription details. Under questioning from defense lawyer Ron Mansfield,
(24:12):
Neilson said she definitely had an alcohol use disorder, though
it may have lessened in recent years.
Speaker 10 (24:20):
A bottle of wine a night for.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Over a decade, as she described around twenty thirteen, was
a hazardous level for a woman. Neilson says alcohol is
excellent at relieving anxiety until it wears off when anxiety worsens.
He notes Hannah was on fluexitine aka prozac for about
twenty years, and so how does.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
The use of alcohol with that medication?
Speaker 2 (24:48):
Are there any factors or are there any complexities? That
we need to be aware of in relation to the
use of alcohol with those medications.
Speaker 9 (24:57):
Well, just rendering them less effective.
Speaker 11 (24:59):
For basically, it's just an arm wrestle where the alcohol's winning.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
She was prescribed medications to treat alcohol use disorders. There
was also a prescription for diazepam to mitigate with dural symptoms.
He agreed it might be relevant that Hannah had consumed
red wine the night before she was found dead in
the morning. The alcohol renders the antidepressant medication ineffective, countering
(25:24):
any beneficial effect.
Speaker 10 (25:25):
From her long term use. He says.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
Hannah was also on weight loss medication, including one which
was then removed from the market. It was replaced with
fentamine about twenty ten, which Hannah then began taking.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
And what's fit to mein what can you help us
or tell us.
Speaker 11 (25:43):
About that particular drone. Look, it's basically an amphetamine. It's
a lowish dose, you know, fifteen milligrams. They come in
a thirty milligram tablet as well. But they work exactly
this name as every other amphetamine you know dex amphetamine
for ADHD, you know amphetamine or methamphetamine.
Speaker 9 (26:03):
They working in the same way.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
So that particular medication would how would that work in
combination with the medication you've told us she's on in
relation to depression and anxiety.
Speaker 9 (26:21):
Yeah, well, again it's it's not a very good practice.
I'd have to say.
Speaker 11 (26:24):
I don't mean to criticize a colleague, but the firstly,
if you try and prescribe phetamine or fluoxetine when a
person's already on it, you're you're your prescribing program will
say there's a contry indication. So there is a potentially
dangerous contra indication.
Speaker 3 (26:44):
People's there, what's a contra indication?
Speaker 11 (26:47):
Perhaps there's an interaction. I should have said, it should
have been the word I used, a potentially dangerous interaction
in that the phantomine can cause serotonin syndrome, which is
a sort of an excess serotonin in people who. I mean,
it's a rare and obviously you know there's plenty of
people on that combination, but even so it's that's hazardous and.
Speaker 3 (27:11):
What does that mean?
Speaker 9 (27:12):
By way of that come.
Speaker 11 (27:14):
Yeah, well it's a look, it causes a dangerous delirium
with a sort of an autonomic and.
Speaker 9 (27:18):
Again I don't want to get technical, but.
Speaker 11 (27:21):
Where there's too much serotonin and people become confused and
have rabbit heartbeat and can even die. This is what,
for example, kills young people at music festivals. It's the
serotonin syndrome from taking MDMA for example.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
Neilson said that the combination of drugs was not ideal
and that Hannah clearly developed a tolerance to several of
them due to long term use, and it didn't work
well with her mental health issues. In particular, the combination
of Hannah's chronic depression and the combination of Zoppo clone
and alcohol are very dangerous for suicide, he said.
Speaker 10 (28:00):
He said that.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
It's clear that Hannah was very perfectionist, and we've heard
that from others in the trial as well. He said
high achievers can take their own lives, even if unsuccessful
people are more likely to, and that it's not uncommon
for people to mask their true mental state and feelings
from those around them, such as colleagues. Nielsen says only
(28:22):
thirty to forty percent of people leave suicide notes he
didn't see any evidence of Hannah having seen a psychiatrist
or psychologist on any long term basis. Based on Hannah's
alleged previous attempt as told to the court by her
sister Tracy, and Hannah's work pressures, and the cocktail of
(28:42):
drugs and alcohol that put Hannah in a higher risk group.
Nielson confirmed he's not here to confirm anything about whether
she committed suicide. He's just here to speak about the
factors that very greatly increased her risk compared to other people.
(29:05):
For coverage of other news events in New Zealand, listen
to the front page The Herald's daily news podcast wherever
you get your podcasts. The start of week seven of
the trial was delayed due to an illness of a
jury member, so Day twenty eight started on the Tuesday
with the defense calling doctor Christopher Milroy. He appeared via
(29:29):
video link from Canada. He's the second high profile pathologist
the defense have called to give evidence. Doctor Milroy confirmed
he's been a colleague of doctor Stephen Cordner for about
thirty years. He's been called by the defense to comment
on Cordner's evidence. Following comments earlier in the trial by
a Crown witness, doctor Martin Sage, suggested Cordner was trying
(29:52):
too hard to contend the death was a suicide, but
Milroy disagreed.
Speaker 12 (29:58):
I would still say that the most likely cause of
death in this case was hanging with partial suspension features.
Speaker 6 (30:06):
But we would therefore give the cause of death as hanging.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
Thank you, and having reviewed this case, do you have
any concerns with their opinion.
Speaker 12 (30:19):
I don't have concerns with giving an opinion of hanging.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
Milroy has also seen the evidence given by all three
previous pathologists who have all given evidence in this trial.
He went on to explain why he supported Cordner that
Hannah's death was self inflicted.
Speaker 12 (30:37):
I really would expect if it was manual strangulation through throttling,
to see external injuries and internal injuries, and particularly in
a lady of miss Hannah's age, damage to the voice
box structures and or hyoid bone, because they are more
(31:01):
frag brittle.
Speaker 6 (31:04):
As we get older. We lay down their cartilage when
we're young.
Speaker 12 (31:08):
So it's typical not to see anything in young people,
even in homicidal strangulation in terms of damage to the
voice box cartilage and the hyoid bone, which is this
bone that's just above.
Speaker 6 (31:22):
But as you get older.
Speaker 12 (31:24):
Income they become more like bone, and they become more brittle.
They become more like chalk that can snap. And so
if you compress someone manually, I would have expected to
have seen fractures.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
Milroy added for homicide or ligature strangulations, you would usually
see resistance and expect to see external injuries. Mansfield moved
on to Hannah's use of the sleeping pill Zoba clone.
You'll remember analysis of her blood and hair showed the
presence of the drug. Milroy said it can be difficult
(32:02):
to know what effect a drug might have based on
a post mortem. He explained, even though the trial had
heard earlier it was twice the normal dose, it was
still within the therapeutic range. He added, sleeping pills don't
act in the same way as anesthetic drugs.
Speaker 12 (32:20):
The thing about sedating drugs is that they're intended to
help you go to sleep, but it doesn't mean that
they're an anesthetic. It doesn't mean that you render someone unconscious.
They fall asleep, and then people can be woken up
from the sleep, and I would still expect the person
to fight back with this degree of zopiclone. Inordinarily we
(32:44):
would not consider it in any way relevant to the
cause of death, but in terms of its effects, it
can't be.
Speaker 6 (32:56):
It can't.
Speaker 12 (32:57):
I mean, the person may have taken help them go
to sleep.
Speaker 6 (33:01):
They may be a little bit more.
Speaker 12 (33:02):
Groggy than they would otherwise be if they weren't on it,
but they may be very tolerant because they've been on
it for six months and one would expect them to
wake up if attacked.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
Under cross examination by Crown Solicitor Alicia McClintock, Milroy confirmed
he provided a report on August twenty first, twenty twenty four,
after doctor Stephen Cordener's approach was questioned by doctor Martin
Sage during the Crown case. This was well into the trial.
During her cross examination, McClintock asked if he's familiar with
(33:38):
the term non fatal strangulation. Milroy explained in England he
would occasionally see cases of people had been strangled and survived.
McClintock asked if these non fatal strangulations can often leave
little or no non fatal injuries. Yes, he said, but
he's also seen non fatal cases that look worse than
(34:01):
fatal cases. The other caveat is we don't dissect the
necks of survivors.
Speaker 8 (34:07):
Thank you.
Speaker 7 (34:07):
In non fatal strangulation, would you agree as a common
feature of violence against women? Yes, and is it also
well none in the medical profession that non fatal strangulation
is a key marker for the escalation of domestic violence.
Speaker 8 (34:24):
Yes, are you aware.
Speaker 7 (34:27):
Of a British Medical Journal study indicating that it raised
the risk of someone becoming a victim of a homicide
or serious future harm by around seven and a half
at times in victim survivors.
Speaker 12 (34:40):
I'm not specifically aware of that study, but I accept
and I think it's fair to point out that almost
all the cases I dealt with clinically have been female
victims with a male perpetrator.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
You'll remember, earlier in the trial, Hannah's family friends John
and Pheasant Reardon told the court that she told them
Pulkinghorn had previously put his hands on her neck as
a strangulation. Thread her questioning moved on to the differing
opinions of pathologists called by both sides of the case.
Speaker 7 (35:18):
You're not suggesting doctor Sage hasn't also been fair and scientific,
nor are you suggesting that of doctor Kesha.
Speaker 6 (35:26):
Is it right? That's correct.
Speaker 7 (35:28):
It's just that they look at the possibilities aspect differently
to Professor Coordiner and what you've told us today, don't they?
Speaker 9 (35:40):
Well?
Speaker 12 (35:41):
And I say that in my report, I said that
this is a case where people are looking at possibilities.
Speaker 8 (35:46):
Could we put it this way?
Speaker 7 (35:47):
The pathology is obviously a very important aspect and we
must take care with its conclusions.
Speaker 8 (35:54):
But you're not saying, and.
Speaker 7 (35:56):
I think you've made this clear, But just so everyone's clear,
you're not saying pathology is the one source of truth here.
Speaker 6 (36:03):
No, No, absolutely not.
Speaker 1 (36:05):
McClintock questioned his comments on Zoppo clone and how Hannah
might have developed a tolerance.
Speaker 7 (36:11):
One of the concerns about zopper clone is its use.
It is a drug used to drug other people. I'm
not suggesting that's what's happened here at all, but that's
one of its concerns. Is a particularly combined with alcohol,
it can be used in that way to cause excess sedation.
Speaker 9 (36:34):
Correct, Well, yeah.
Speaker 12 (36:37):
It's not one of the ones I'm familiar as familiar
with as some other drugs, but and I could see
that that could be the case.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
Melroy added the assessment of SR toxicologist Helen Paulson was
fair that Hannah had taken the drug over a six
month period, though the frequency and level of use is
hard to say. McClintock then asked, is sooperclone sometimes used
to sedate people and how quickly someone sedated on zopperclone
(37:08):
would wake up.
Speaker 12 (37:09):
What I would say is that the concentrations were not high.
In other words, there's no evidence of significant excess.
Speaker 6 (37:20):
Of being taken. But I concede that.
Speaker 12 (37:27):
In any drug, in any individual, unless we know exactly
how they would perform, we are to a certain extent
speculating both ways in one of them, both in terms
of it's both in terms of its sedation or non sedation.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
Neutrality came into question.
Speaker 12 (37:45):
Because I think the pathology certainly favors suicidal hanging in
the context of suicide versus homicide because of the known
fine soft ligature, partial suspension hanging, and the absence of.
Speaker 6 (38:08):
Injury on the neck.
Speaker 12 (38:11):
And therefore, in my opinion, when you look at it,
it much more strongly favors suicide ober homicide. So you
couldn't say it was neutral. It's not a fifty to
fifty coin toss.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
Before finishing, McClintock asked if strangulations staged as a suicide
are even a thing. Milroy replied, that's correct. Defense lawyer
Ron Mansfield had questions in response around the use of
the term possibilities.
Speaker 6 (38:41):
I've never seen a report on a.
Speaker 12 (38:45):
Hanging, suicidal hanging, or self inflicted hanging where someone has
put in the caveat I can't exclude homicidal on net compression.
Speaker 6 (38:55):
I've never seen it.
Speaker 12 (38:56):
And just to give some context, in the last fourteen years,
my unit has done nearly a thousand hangings, of which
a proportion will be will be partial suspension.
Speaker 1 (39:08):
Milroe said he's only ever seen one case of an
attempted concealed homicide where someone had tried to make it
look like a suicide. In his career, he's examined six
hundred or seven hundred self inflicted hangings. The next witness
(39:31):
was Atakhan Shaho. He's a director and senior technician at
a company called Our Computer Guy. The company specializes in
data security and medical software integration, predominantly in health and law.
Shaho has a lengthy career working with Apple as a
software developer and with NASA, as well as with medical systems.
(39:54):
He was asked to forensically examine the material disclosed to
the defense from the police as part of the investigation. Specifically,
he looked at the cloned Celebrate phone data and the
laptop data. Shaho confirms he's familiar with cell Bright and Axiom,
the software used by New Zealand police to clone and
(40:16):
examine the phones and computers.
Speaker 2 (40:19):
You can use Celebrate or Exiom dex is either a
mobile phone or a laptop. Or if you know what
you're doing, you can gain xcess to a mobile phone
or a laptop even if you're not appraised of the
relevant passwords exactly.
Speaker 13 (40:37):
But you do, you do lose the ability to so
for example, on an iPhone if it's locked to iCloud,
and some people might know this that if you don't
know the pin code or you don't know the I
Cloud password, you can't get into the data. And that's
because Apple has a secure enplay in their iCloud and
that protects the contacts, the calendars, and the usually the
(41:01):
text messages and other facets of the data on the database.
Because Apple have a unique encryption service, that not that
they can no longer break into if asked too. And
there's many references to the FBI wanting access to phones
of people with who passed away and they want their fingerprint,
and an Apple kind of in getting there and they
(41:22):
choose not to have a back door.
Speaker 1 (41:24):
In June this year, Chahou traveled to New Zealand to
obtain the information needed for his forensic IT analysis and
was physically handed Hannah's phone and her middlemore HP laptop.
He said police weren't able to get into the laptop
because they didn't know the password. He asked to try
and circumvent the password, but was denied. He created his
(41:48):
own clone of Hannah's iPhone and was also provided a
range of electronic devices belonging to polkinghorn Mansfield then questioned
Chaho about how Celebrate software works.
Speaker 13 (42:01):
It then takes the abatim copy of all files, logs
and databases off the phone and creates essentially a Celebrate
database that can be analyzed. So if you can try
and imagine breaking into a filing cabinet and taking all
the files and the information that are in there, regardless
(42:24):
of how they're stored, and they're in a searchable way
that someone can actually go in and look for the
information that they're looking for.
Speaker 3 (42:32):
So as far as information on the phone itself.
Speaker 2 (42:35):
Should be able to secure a copy of that information.
Speaker 13 (42:39):
Yes, So a phone is made up of lots and
lots of databases and log files, and those they're designed
by the manufacturer and by the software developers, and that
information is structured, and Celebrate takes that information, analyzes it
and puts it into a number of different ways and criterias.
(43:02):
That allows us to look at the information in human speak.
Speaker 2 (43:08):
And then what about information stored in the cloud, Because
the phone.
Speaker 13 (43:15):
Stores cloud information on itself as well, sometimes you can have.
Speaker 4 (43:20):
A copy of that.
Speaker 3 (43:21):
If I could give an example.
Speaker 13 (43:23):
One of the phones that was interrogated, the four to
seven Triple zero, which I believe was the iPhone twalk pro,
only had three contacts on it. But when I done deeper,
I found over a thousand contacts that were in the
cloud that weren't on the phone. And what that tells
me is the version of the operating system protected the
(43:45):
iCloud from the Celebrate and in such, the Celebrate extraction
didn't have those nine hundred and ninety seven odd contacts
in its extraction.
Speaker 2 (43:58):
Does that mean that some material and the cloud can't
be excessed via Celebright correct?
Speaker 1 (44:05):
Chaho confirmed one of his tasks was to look for
communications shedding light on Hannah's well being and her communications
with Polkinghorn via mobile phone and email. He provided at
least a year's worth of text messages between the couple.
The trial then started to hear about emails that Shahoe analyzed.
(44:27):
He mentions an email which Hannah initially emailed to herself
before sending it to her brother Bruce, and it related
to the care of their mother and appears to be
around the time she was about to be moved from
the family farm near Havelock North to a care home.
The email urges Bruce to respect that the property is
her family home.
Speaker 2 (44:48):
We gave one thousand percent support to you both and
Mum when the arrangement was being made to take over
the property, and incidentally head two on that occasion broken
between you and tracing I Dash. We do not regret
that decision. I know you have worked on the property.
(45:08):
That is what life is about, working to build up
your future furp and I have worked extremely hard to
where I have got to in life too.
Speaker 3 (45:20):
You are not the only ones.
Speaker 2 (45:22):
I also arge you to think about what you said
about me. That was brutal and hurtful and I have
not deserved it, particularly your replication that I am a
poor aunt to Rose and in brackets, and I did
say Jacob and the brackets.
Speaker 3 (45:38):
You know, this whole episode with Mum.
Speaker 2 (45:40):
Has been very difficult for me as well as sorry
as well, And yet I have had to hold the
line between you and Tracy. I don't think if you
get that, you seem to think it's only difficult for
you and Shelley.
Speaker 1 (45:56):
The defense earlier looked at the tensions between the Hannah's
siblings over the care of her family home. Bruce, as
you'll remember earlier in the trial, testified for the Crown,
while Tracy, the youngest sister, testified for the defense. Another
email to Polkinghorn's son Ben and his wife Bridget, around
(46:17):
the time of the first COVID cases, had Hannah Wright
about being asked to run the Northern Region's supply chain
and had been working all day and emailing into the night.
It is unbelievable, what is happening?
Speaker 10 (46:31):
She wrote.
Speaker 1 (46:32):
There was another email from April twenty twenty during the
COVID lockdown, which Mansfield read out to the court.
Speaker 2 (46:39):
But I worked fifteen slat six hours times four.
Speaker 3 (46:43):
Over easter, and yet I am tired and not myself.
Speaker 2 (46:48):
But I've had a horrible day starting with I'm not
going to name that person whom I have disappointed.
Speaker 3 (46:57):
I'm never good enough despite my effits. Today is the
twenty fifth day in a.
Speaker 2 (47:01):
Row, but I'm not adding any value. I want desperately
to tell someone and cry and ask for help, but
everyone seems to think I'm amazing and does not want
to know that I have foibles or failings. I've tried
to bring it up with Fillip, but he tells me
he hasn't got go time to go over negative tonight
(47:24):
and brack and that's his equals.
Speaker 3 (47:26):
He has enough. I might stand on my own two feet,
but I don't know.
Speaker 2 (47:31):
Today if I have two feet or what they look like.
So I've had three glasses of wine and a beautiful
dinner thanks to PJP, but I don't know what to
do with myself dot dot dot.
Speaker 3 (47:45):
So I will go.
Speaker 2 (47:46):
To bed and not sleep, very unusual for me, and
it builds up.
Speaker 3 (47:51):
Who knows what might follow? Have to tell.
Speaker 2 (47:54):
Someone, even if no one but God ever sees this.
Speaker 1 (47:59):
In court, Polkinghorn was seen sobbing as the email was
read out. More emails saw Hannah talk about her mother
no longer recognizing her. In August twenty twenty while one
around the twenty twenty election had Hannah fearing how far
our taxes are going to be ramped up if Jacinder
Aardern wins. Another email read by Mansfield from Hannah to
(48:23):
family says my life is insane and her role is
incredibly difficult and lonely. Alicia McClintock began her cross examination
asking about differences between email signatures and disparities in font
and color. Shaho later clarified, under further questioning from Mansfield
(48:45):
that signatures can change when formatting is stripped after someone replies,
and that it's possible to have different email signatures when
sending from different devices. Was the last email Polkinghorn received
from Hannah at ten forty seven pm on April fourth,
twenty twenty one. McClintock asked he agreed. McClintock asked if
(49:08):
he was asked to have a look at Polkinghorn's deleted searches.
I don't believe I was, said Shaho. He also didn't
see communication between Polkinghorn and Madison Ashton in his searches.
Day twenty nine saw Auckland Crown Solicitor Alicia McClintock recall
(49:30):
police digital forensic analyst June Lee, who was called at
the end of the Crown case some weeks ago. Lee
was stood down part way through defense lawyer Ron Mansfield's
cross examination.
Speaker 10 (49:43):
To recap the trial.
Speaker 1 (49:45):
Has heard Hannah's phone only looked up two contacts, Polkinghorn
and the daughter of their family friend at four am
the morning she died. Prosecutors say it was an automatic
security process. Says it was Hannah drafting a message to
Polkinghorn and the young woman. Lee has said that Hannah's
(50:06):
phone could not have been used. McClintock began her questioning
saying when Lee gave evidence some time ago, the issue
was whether entries in Hannah's phone's activity log with the
result of background activity in Hannah's phone's identity look up service,
an automatic security feature or someone drafting a text message.
Speaker 10 (50:29):
Lee has since met with Atikhan Shaho.
Speaker 8 (50:33):
And did you show mister Shaho at the d if you.
Speaker 7 (50:40):
The data that you were looking at and taken through
your explanation as to what you think is happening with
those log entries?
Speaker 5 (50:47):
Yes?
Speaker 7 (50:49):
And are there still is you understand it some areas
of disagreement between yourself and mister sharho as to what
these entries. Okay, So just to recap for the benefit
of everybody, you've told us that in your opinion, this
(51:12):
is a background activity rather than user activity, and that
in your opinion, nobody is using the phone at the
time of those entries.
Speaker 8 (51:26):
Have I that's fear.
Speaker 6 (51:27):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (51:28):
When the phone becomes idle at ten forty seven pm
the night before the morning of April fifth, there's no
trace of anything happening. Li said at ten forty seven pm,
there are signs of the phone being locked. To access
it again, you'd need to unlock it, for example via password,
(51:49):
and someone would need to click into the messaging app.
Speaker 10 (51:52):
He says.
Speaker 1 (51:53):
He reiterated several times that his view that Hannah did
not use her phone after that, and the Identity Lookup
service in fact, is an automatic background process which only
runs when in use. It can't be used as evidence
that Hannah was drafting a message the morning of her death.
(52:15):
McClintock said police have found the identity Lookup service running
on April eight, three days after Hannah Diedly confirmed that
indicates you don't have to be using the phone for
the identity Lookup service to run and if somebody else
is using it, like police, there would be evidence of that.
Speaker 10 (52:37):
He said, with exhaustive.
Speaker 1 (52:39):
References to other earlier data on Polkinghorn's phone, suggests Defense
it analyst Attikan Shaho was mistaken to suggest anomalies in
the data police used to show the phone went into
airplane mode. Just as Graham Lang asked a question about
the series of ons and offs in the airplane mode data,
(53:02):
Lee says phones work off user habits, So if you
regularly turn airplane mode on and off, the phone would
regularly check that.
Speaker 14 (53:12):
So I'm actually speaking between the ten twenty four in
the morning. In general, there was no log activity or whatsoever.
So no user interaction.
Speaker 8 (53:23):
Yeah, none at all in that timeframe.
Speaker 7 (53:25):
No, disagree with mister Shaho that this could be Pauline
Hanna going into the phone to draft messages even if
they weren't sent.
Speaker 4 (53:35):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (53:36):
Defense lawyer Ron Mansfield then began his cross examination of Lee,
first asking about his background before digging into the process
of how Lee works and how he receives phones as
a digital forensic analyst and the process from there.
Speaker 2 (53:52):
I take from your background that you're not a registered
Apple developer.
Speaker 3 (53:59):
No, and Apple doesn't work.
Speaker 2 (54:04):
With Celebrate or Axiom by way of license or contract
or even informally.
Speaker 9 (54:11):
Do they?
Speaker 6 (54:12):
I don't believe. So.
Speaker 2 (54:14):
It sounds like prior to joining the police as a
technician and then as an analyst, your background has been
with Samsung.
Speaker 3 (54:28):
In relation to answering user inquiries.
Speaker 9 (54:32):
Correct, yes, but I don't really understand your question here.
Speaker 14 (54:38):
What what what relevancy does they have my background to
the knowledge around the log entries?
Speaker 2 (54:44):
Well, because there's a disagreement between you and mister in
relation to how the Apple operating system works.
Speaker 14 (54:54):
It's not really Apple how Apple system works. It's more
like the there's a database ext out of the Apple
phone would just exhibit that we actually tooking the database
around it.
Speaker 9 (55:07):
You know where I'm coming from.
Speaker 1 (55:09):
Mansfield and Lee went back and forth on how the
Apple server connects to a phone. Lee said he disagrees
with Shahou that the Apple server doesn't connect randomly, but
only at their request of a user. There weren't other
background events happening with Hannah's phone, but Lee said he
can't be sure the phone isn't going through all the
(55:30):
contacts at once when these background events are occurring. He
then took leave for the day, but what would turn
on day thirty. The defense's next witness was another case
of deja vus, Olav Nielsen, the Sydney psychiatrist earlier called
(55:51):
by the defense. He returned for cross examination by Crown
Solicitor Alicia McClintock. Nielsen reiterated an earlier point that a
previous suicide attempt means there's an increased risk of up
to one hundred times greater of suicide in the future
according to research.
Speaker 7 (56:09):
What records, if any, were you given of a hospital
admission following an attempt at suicide for Paul and Hannah?
Speaker 9 (56:17):
No, there was none. There's no admissions.
Speaker 11 (56:19):
Just the reference the referral to the to the crisis
team was the only records that I had.
Speaker 8 (56:26):
Yes, that's that.
Speaker 7 (56:27):
Suicidal thoughts though, isn't it not plans and not an attempt?
Speaker 11 (56:33):
The crisis tam, Yeah, I guess it's an informed plan.
Isn't it to concresh into a lorry? It was that
that was in the twenty thirty December nineteen, Yes.
Speaker 7 (56:43):
And so my question is the only evidence that you
were given about anything to do with an attempt?
Speaker 8 (56:49):
The statement of Tracy Hannah.
Speaker 6 (56:53):
Correct, right, and.
Speaker 7 (56:54):
So it's obviously for the jury whether they accept Tracy
Hannah's evidence or not. But there's no medical evidence that
you were given underpinning an attempt at suicide for Pauline Hannah.
Speaker 6 (57:09):
Was there.
Speaker 11 (57:11):
Of medical evidence of an episode of deliberate self harm?
Speaker 9 (57:16):
No, No, no medical records.
Speaker 1 (57:18):
Neilson said that Hannah's behavior and the lead up to
her death is not necessarily the most important. These decisions
are often very impulsive, he said, and follow weeks or
months of stress or depression. McClintock said. Neilson talked about
her unusual behavior over the weekend before her death, referencing
(57:41):
her going to the tip.
Speaker 7 (57:42):
Are you suggesting that a trip to the tip is
indicative of.
Speaker 8 (57:48):
Some sort of mental health deterioration.
Speaker 11 (57:53):
Not not any of itself, but for example, people who
give away possessions because they've made a decision to kill themselves,
that would be a sign. For example, people clearing out,
you know, personal items because that has been a thought
on their mind might be a sign.
Speaker 9 (58:12):
Again, you know, I don't know that, but.
Speaker 11 (58:14):
That's it's just one factor that may have been relevant,
I think is.
Speaker 7 (58:18):
She's taking her all of her wildly goods to the
tap might we might have an alarm, But in that instance,
what we know is she's taking some old curtains to
the tap.
Speaker 1 (58:27):
There was also the taking of a meal to some
old friends, Nielsen said, which he understood to be out
of character and later confirmed that came from Polkinghorn's statement
to police, and he is reliant on what he said
about her suicide risk factors. On the various drugs Hannah
was on at the time of her death, Nielsen said,
(58:48):
we don't know about her tolerance. He earlier testified that
the combination of Zoppa clone and alcohol would have caused
a disinhibiting effect.
Speaker 7 (58:58):
When you say there was a loss of them in
that particular night. For that, you again, you're having to
rely on the idea that she has indeed committed suicide
necessarily in order to say that, aren't you, because there's
no evidence of her being disinhibited in the lead.
Speaker 8 (59:12):
Up to that art.
Speaker 11 (59:14):
No, No, it's a predictable effect of you know, a
bottle of peano and no New Zealand pen four and
several tablets probably of zopper clone, not just one tablet,
given the blood alcohol, the zopper clone content, and.
Speaker 7 (59:31):
Where do you get the evidence from that she drank
the bottle of wine.
Speaker 11 (59:36):
No, No, there was a that was well, I'm assuming
that's what it was, because.
Speaker 9 (59:41):
That was a Dr. Polkinhorn's son, So we're back to.
Speaker 8 (59:44):
The we have to rely on him for that.
Speaker 1 (59:48):
On Johannah's appearance and Neilson's comments that she might have
been hiding issues via her good presentation, you remember telling.
Speaker 7 (59:57):
Us that, yes, how many times did you meet her?
Speaker 9 (01:00:06):
That's a I have never met her.
Speaker 8 (01:00:10):
Obviously, he can't.
Speaker 7 (01:00:14):
I mean it's possible people could mask things, right, but
you can't possibly say that that's what's happening with her
presenting herself well, can you? Because looking God gives some
people confidence in themselves, doesn't it.
Speaker 6 (01:00:34):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (01:00:35):
Nilsen also acknowledges Hannah had responded positively after talking about
suicidal thoughts to a crisis team in twenty nineteen, and
that the opening of a new vaccination clinic in the
week after Hannah died would have been a source of
pride for her despite the stress of her job. McClintock
later asked about building offender's risk profiles for violent offending.
Speaker 7 (01:01:00):
One of the key things that you would look at,
I assume, is whether there is evidence of prior violence, yes,
and in a male offender, and any evidence that was
put in front of you of a non fatal strangulation
incident of a female that would be a red flag
(01:01:25):
for a violence profile for an offender.
Speaker 9 (01:01:30):
Look.
Speaker 11 (01:01:31):
Yes, the circumstances of previous violence in addition to a
history of the previous violence would be would be relevant obviously.
Speaker 7 (01:01:40):
And drug use would also be something that would have
to be factored into an offender risk profile, wouldn't it.
Speaker 9 (01:01:52):
Yeah, Yes, of course that's probably the largest, the strongest
risk factor, the previous.
Speaker 11 (01:02:01):
Behavior and substance utse you know, both because of the
antisocial nature of substance abuse and the disinhibiting effect of
substances to recap.
Speaker 1 (01:02:12):
The couple's family, friends the Readans both said Hannah had
described Pulkinghorn having previously placed his hands on her neck
as part of what they understood to be a strangulation threat.
Nielsen reiterated presenting well doesn't mean you can't suffer from
depression or commit suicide, and Hannah not disclosing her thoughts
(01:02:35):
to colleagues or family doesn't mean she wasn't considering things.
He also said the mix of drugs and alcohol could
have taken away Hannah's fear of death.
Speaker 2 (01:02:47):
You've obviously had an opportunity to consider my lender of
friends questioning by way of cross examination. Does that move
you from the opinion you experienced chief regarding miss Hannah
presenting with a number of risk factors for suicide?
Speaker 9 (01:03:08):
That's right now.
Speaker 11 (01:03:09):
I stand by that original opinion, which is based on.
Speaker 9 (01:03:14):
My experience and research.
Speaker 1 (01:03:17):
After the day's testimony, just as Graham Lang then addressed
the jury saying that due to the trial extending into
a seventh week and with closing statements not due until
the eighth week, now one juror's prior commitments means she's
been stood down so as to not put pressure on
the jury to deliver a verdict. The jury of eleven
(01:03:40):
now eight women and three men, are due to start
deliberations next week. You can listen to episodes of Accused
the Polkinghorn Trial through the Front Page podcast feed or
find it on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts.
(01:04:04):
This series is presented and produced by me Chelsea Daniels,
with producer Ethan Siles and sound engineer Patti Fox. Additional
production support by Helen King additional reporting from the Heralds
Craig Capitan and George Block, and for more coverage of
the Polkinghorn trial, head to Enzidhrold dot co dot nz.
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