November 16, 2024 • 44 mins
This week, Paula's guest is the CEO of Cassiobury, Rhiannon McKinnon. They discuss her pathway through the business community and moving to New Zealand, including her time as CEO of KiwiWealth, before getting her advice for the next generation of CEOs and business leaders.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hello, I am Paula Beuni and welcome to my New
Zealand Herald podcast Ask Me Anything.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Now.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
One thing eye bleut in life is it's never too
late to learn something new. So on this podcast I
talk to people from all walks of life to hear
about how they got to where they are and get
some advice and guidance on some of life's biggest questions.
Today we're going to focus on leadership, in particular business
leadership with some advice were both established and start out CEOs.
(00:39):
My guest is Cassiobury founder and CEO, Rhiannon McKinnon.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Rannon is one of the youngest ever leaders of.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
A New Zealand top ten wealth and investment organization when
she was appointed CEO of Kiwi Wealth inspired by the
mistakes she made which we've all got to be as
a brand new CEO, she is now CEO Coach of Sorts.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
In his here this year, her wealth of knowledge ran
on Welcome and.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Thank you so much Paula for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Oh it's great to have you here. Okay, quick fire questions.
If you could go to the pub with anybody your
live dead celebrity interesting, who would it be? Oh?
Speaker 3 (01:16):
My goodness, let's say Taylor Swift.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
I think she's amazing. I allowed to say that. Yeah,
I think she's such an incredible feminist. And there were
things that she does, you know, in the background, for
you know, her dancers, and for women, and for the
healthcare she provides.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
I just think, wow, what a what a career.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
And for girls.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Right, you know you love that that age when you're
so susceptible of that sort of eleven twelve thirteen. Okay,
I'm fifty five and I listened to her music. But
you know what I mean about those ones that are
just wanting to listen more to Taylor than they will
to you.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
Oh yeah, exactly.
Speaker 4 (01:47):
I've got a ten a nine year old daughter, and
so they love her, and I just think, yeah, what
a great sort of role mode on an example.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
I like that, And what would the drink of choice be?
Speaker 4 (01:56):
You see, I I've sort of been I've been readrinking
my Cosmopolitans of Youth recently. When I was in my
early twenties in London, I thought that was very sophisticated,
and now I'm sort of getting nostalgic, kind of started
drinking them again.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Ah, shout out to my listeners. I've gone back to
my passion fruit mehitos again. I do them when I've
got particularly when i've got children, because you make a
you obviously make a non alcoholic version, and they feel
like they're getting an absolute treat. Yet it's really just
passion fruit soda, water and a bit of bit of sugar. Really,
(02:34):
you're not filling them full of awful phizzy and they feel.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Like they're having a special drink.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
And then you get your vodka, all your white ramen
yours and you're happy.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
That's perfect.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
So I think that's my summer summer sorted.
Speaker 4 (02:49):
Men.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Okay, we're going to get some advice later on around
being an aspiring CEO, you know, how to become a
successful business leader.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
But let's get to know you about fear.
Speaker 3 (02:59):
So.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
You grew up in the UK. We've got a Welsh
father in a Chinese mother.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Did they really meet in the bus stop? Who really did?
Speaker 4 (03:06):
And it was raining and dad had a broken umbrella
and he got onto the bus and he saw my
obviously very beautiful mother and she saw him and he
couldn't even get his umbrella to go down on the
bus And thought he seemed strange, and then he followed her.
They went to the tube and they got on the
tube and he got into the same carriage and apparently
his opening line was are you a nurse? And goodness well,
(03:28):
I think as he was off to Bart's, which is
a hospital, and I think he just thought, you're going
in the same direction, and he got her address out
of her very naive Chinese lady, and he turned up
on the doorstep the next day and waited in the
kitchen for an hour with her flat mates until she
came home to ask her out.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
Yeah, that's quiet, it's nate, it's neat.
Speaker 4 (03:46):
I mean, I mean, whether it'd be a bit still
corrish in this day and age, I don't know. Bully,
he certainly kind of got their site.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
Well, and she gave him her.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
Yeah right, Yeah, she was very naive, I think.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
So she come from China to the UK, so it
was this in Ka, it was.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
In the UK, it was in North London. She'd been
in the UK for a few years. I think she'd
done her A levels at some boarding school in Yorkshire
and then she was at one of the London universities
doing biochemistry. But I think leading quite a kind of
secluded life until my father rocked up.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
I love it. I love it. So how on Earthlyn
did you get to New Zealand?
Speaker 4 (04:23):
So I when I was leaving my first job, I
was traveling around in Asia and I was staying with
a university friend. I was like, I'm going to go
up to Beijing and see what's going on up there.
You know, I've been to Beijing before. I'm half Chinese.
This is two thousand and four. And this friend said,
you've got to catch up with Kiwi while you're there.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
Kiwi was the New Zealander. The one New Zealander had gone.
Speaker 4 (04:47):
To the university that I'd gone to in the UK,
and he'd been nicknamed Kiwi. There was more than one
New Zealander there, and so I was like, I can't
go catch up with Kiwi. Haven't seen him in four years.
And he's like, you've got to stay with him. And
he's oh, no, no, no, I send people to stay with
him all the time. It's got he room. So give
him a call. So I called him and I said,
can I come and stay with you Kiwi? And he said, no,
no room. At the end, I'm go and stay at
(05:08):
our hotel.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
So I did that.
Speaker 4 (05:10):
Anyway, we hit it off brilliantly, and about a year
and a half later we sort of got our act
together and moved to China. After a year, I said, please,
let's move back to London. That's the place to go,
and he said, no, I want to move to New Zealand.
I want to go home, and so I just followed him,
got on you Yeah you mean up in christ too. Yeah,
that's right. So he had the potential job opportunity down there,
(05:30):
which never really transpired. But we hit the ground in
christ Church and you know, we got settled there. It's
been about four years down there, and then we moved
up to Wellington in twenty eleven.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
And you did an arts degree in history, is it right?
Speaker 4 (05:41):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (05:42):
I did an arts degree.
Speaker 4 (05:43):
I kind of knew that in the UK you can
kind of get away with not doing anything relevant like
finance or commerce. I kind of knew I wanted to
go that way, but that I could study something more interesting,
and I thought, three years, you've got to do something
that's kind of interesting. That's going to Yeah, it sounds
very specific, just one subject for three years. So I
liked history and I like the way that you know,
you think about how you argue things and different points
(06:05):
of view and bias and all that sort of thing
has been really useful in my career afterwards.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
And there is something in that arts degree and that
you know, and it's I know it's you know, the
old worn saying, but you know it doesn't necessarily to
teach you what to think, It teaches you how to think.
Speaker 4 (06:19):
Yeah, I think it's really that's what you do is
did a sociology degree?
Speaker 3 (06:22):
Is that right?
Speaker 1 (06:22):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (06:23):
So it's the same sort of thing.
Speaker 4 (06:24):
And I've heard Dawn Freshwater, who's a chancellor vice chancellor
at Auckland. You know, she's been talking about, you know,
what you need in an age of AI and you know,
those sorts of arts degrees actually suddenly then we might
have a new kind of flush of sort of acceptance
and take up because I think how to think, how
to ask questions becomes even more relevant.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
Mind Joe, I was, you know, I'm cheering the Border
farmic and we were going doing a very important paper
and at the front was my fellow board members and
all of their qualifications, and then mindset had a bit
of work experience. I think, you know, would you like
to agg my bachelor of that degree to the multiple PhDs.
Speaker 4 (07:03):
You've got something I was going at the university. I
went to kind of like switch my bachelor's into a
master's after three years. You just didn't have to go
to jail in between, and then it got upgraded. So
it makes me sound like I've done something more.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
So you do need to the top. I mean, it's
not plain sailing, is it.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
You know? And you talk about, you know, perhaps not
being in the right job at the right time, and
I think sometimes we feel like we're a failure if
we make a mistake in the sort of work environment
we go in.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
And can you talk me through that a bit.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (07:30):
I've definitely had periods of my career like a couple
of jobs, probably in a row actually, where I'd gone
from sort of doing really well and everyone thought I
was brilliant, and I at one point thought I was
brilliant as well. And when you know, in my early
mid twenties and the next job I went into, I
went to Morgan Stanley. It's a big American investment bank,
and I thought I'll give my give myself a go
at this. And I was a very very very small
(07:51):
cargon a huge wheel, and I didn't like it very
much and I had a lot to learn then. I
think I was quite an arrogant twenty five year old,
and I've got kind of cut back down to size
in a way that I look back now and I
think that's probably me, more me than them.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
But the next job I went into was good as well.
Speaker 4 (08:08):
But sometimes you end up in a position where you
feel that you know you're just not fitting in right,
and sometimes you feel like you need to stay until
you succeed before you leave on your high. But sometimes
I think it's actually worth quitting beforehand.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
It sounds terrible.
Speaker 4 (08:24):
But the next job I found him was like, suddenly
I was a blue eyed girl girl and everyone thought
I was brilliant, And so it just goes to show
that's like, you know, one month later, suddenly I've gone
from being sort of feeling like I don't fit in
and I'm not making progress and no one gets me
to people thinking I'm brilliant and I was exactly the
same person, which.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
Is good advice, right and end as well in the
context of a you know, whenever I'm doing any mentoring
or particularly with young people or you know, I always
say to them think more about the organization and the values. Yes,
at least about the role you're going to do. Yeah,
I think that's really goo because it's a smart company
will move you. Yeah, you know, like if you are
the right fetch ye, sometimes we're not the right fit.
Speaker 4 (09:01):
Yeah, Sometimes you're just not the right fit. And I
think that's okay. Yeah, And so to sort of retry
and go somewhere else, you know, company value wise, and
even sometimes specific manager that you might have, for example,
sometimes you get along well with the people around you
and sometimes you just end up on the wrong teams.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
And so you'd had lots of roles and things, and
obviously your experience was growing and everything else. But can
the steep up and to a chief executive role? I mean,
how did that come about?
Speaker 4 (09:26):
I mean you were working at KIEWI Wells, I was
at QUE well So I was on there sort of
senior leadership team or executive leadership team. I was in
a strategy role. I was doing that four days a
week by that point. And there was sort of a change,
you know, the board I think was changing at the
CEE and I think he was looking like he was
going to step down. And I thought, you know, I
(09:47):
kind of at one point kind of thought, well, if
I sort of put up my hand and say, you
probably need to run a real process to find a
new CEO. But what about me is acting, I'll hold
the reins for you. And that was an offer that
they thought, you know, they must have been desperate or something,
but they said, yes, we'll try you as acting and
it ended up being a sort of a nine month interview.
I would say yea, because I did that for about
(10:08):
nine months and then I was given the permanent position.
But by which point I think I've sort of hit
you know, pretty much all the goals, hoops, obstacles that
they had set me I had miraculously kind of jumped through.
So yeah, so I think it was It was pretty
exciting when I got the job. At the end of
the day, it's really cool.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
We're going to talk a bit about, you know, the
imposter syndrome and how we step up to it and
try and give some advice to some people as we
get a bit further along. But I wanted to touch on you.
I mean, you're quite outspoken. You know your own values,
don't you.
Speaker 4 (10:38):
Yeah, I suppose, so I think it's good to know
your own values. It's kind of kind of helps guide you.
It's great frameworks for life, and yeah, I think I do.
Is it?
Speaker 1 (10:46):
In twenty twenty two, you called out DGL CEO Simon
Henry for his incredibly awful and misogynistic comments about Nadia. Yeah,
did you need to think that through before you did it?
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Because it's brave and some of us are not courageous enough.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (11:03):
I didn't have to think it through that much. I
mean I saw the comments. I thought those are pretty outrageous.
I called the person who runs our responsible investment area
and I said, you know, does this sit within our policy?
What can we do about it? Is there something that
can be done? She said, yeah, on the basis of
the governance and the issues that really provides that in
that area, then you know, we can really blacklist this
(11:25):
company on that basis. And that was I think we
were literally able to do that overnight. You know, it
was a small enough company where a really we were
really clear about our processes around responsible investment by that point,
so you can make that action really quickly rather than
sit there and going what do we do about this?
So we could make that action overnight, we had an
ri committee, it was all signed off and then we
(11:45):
were able to say, look, we're not going to invest
in jail. We just think this is a real problem
in terms of what the CEO is saying, the comments
he's making, and the governance issues that it kind of
raises as well.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
And you know, I think it's important for us as
woman leaders to be sometimes speaking out for other woman leaders. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Absolutely, sometimes it's easier for someone to do it for you.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
That's true.
Speaker 4 (12:06):
Well, I mean I remember he made very specific comments
about Nadia being Eurasian, and you know, we talked about
my heritage as well, so it did sort of strike
home as well.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, So Kiwi Walth was sold and you
moved on at that time, and you had a sabatacle
with the family, did you.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
I did.
Speaker 4 (12:26):
We took about three months and we went back to Europe,
so from the UK originally, so we spent about half
the time in the UK and then we spent about
half the time on the continent Europe, mostly in Greece,
actually sort of shoving classical education down their throats and
we took them around the Peloponnese peninsula and just took
them to so many ancient sites like mum no more
(12:47):
ancient sites, and then they worked out they could get
slush puppies at the end of practically every visit, so
they kind of cheered up a bit.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
But it was really nice.
Speaker 4 (12:56):
I think, you know, I love New Zealand and everything
about it, but they're they're kind of the written history
of it is relatively short, and even if you go back,
you know, you've got probably what since the Polynesians and
Maria arrived, so probably eight hundred years, whereas you know,
with ancient Greece and stuff, you can go back three
and a half thousand and it's just mind blowing.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
Mind blowing back heads as well.
Speaker 4 (13:15):
Yeah, that's sort of trying to expose them to and
so I think they did get you know, they did
get a lot of exposure, so hopefully slightly formed.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
Okay, so you've taken you three months off, You've gone
and shoved a lot of history into the kids.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
I mean it must have been a change.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
I mean, you you know, you were in a high
powered role that was all encompassing and it just kind
of stopped.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
But what did the three months tach you?
Speaker 4 (13:39):
It's sort of when I was away for that three months.
I sort of percolating like various ideas. It was almost
like if you've lived in Wellington, when you go out
and buy a house, you've got sort of ten things
that you want to do, and you can never get
all ten things. You can't get the view without the wind,
and you know, getting flat access is impossible. And I
had this massive bucket list of things I wanted to
do next, and I thought, what do I want? And
the thing that plculated the top was spend more time
(14:02):
with the kids. So I got really clear on that.
I thought three months of the kids. I actually ended
up wanting to spend more time with them rather than less,
which was a revelation. And then I thought I'd like
to start my own business. I've been watching people do
my friends do it for years, and the grass has
always seemed really green over there.
Speaker 3 (14:18):
It's not that green now I'm over there.
Speaker 4 (14:19):
But like I've always thought, you know, people do these
things and they don't fail miserably and it's okay. And
and if I failed as well, I don't really mind anymore,
which is an interesting change.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
Has always been afraid of failing, but now like I
just get another job.
Speaker 4 (14:33):
And I wanted to work flexibly and do those sorts
of hours that around you know, the kids, and over
the long term work towards being able to spend a
couple of months in the.
Speaker 3 (14:42):
UK a year.
Speaker 4 (14:43):
So that's my real long term goal. And so all
of that led to let's start my own business and
give it a go.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
So that's what I did.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
Great, So you now run ksyoburry is how you say it?
Speaker 4 (14:54):
If you're from what Feared, you just say Cassbury, you
just do you drop half the syllables because it's a
bit lazy, but Cassie Berry is how you should pronounce it.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
And was it sort of your compromise and starting your
own business so that you've got still time with the
family and you can kind of juggle at all.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
Yeah, that's that's what I'm trying to do. I'm trying
to have it all.
Speaker 4 (15:11):
So the idea is that I work nine to three,
and you know, on most days I see the kids
off to school and then I'm there at three o'clock
and sort of run all that sort of stuff as well.
So it is a really nice balance, yeah, because it
goes so quickly with the kids.
Speaker 3 (15:26):
Yeah, exactly. And I think, you know, I always look
back and go wow.
Speaker 4 (15:29):
Talking pictures during lockdown the other day, and I just
could not believe the size of the children. And that
was four and a half years ago since lockdown, and
so most of them have kind of over doubled in
age since then and just blew my mind. So I thought,
if not now, like when they still want to hang
out with me, Yeah, let's spend some time with them.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
So it's working really well for now. You know, may
that continue?
Speaker 4 (15:50):
You know, never say never about how you change things
and so forth, but this is a really nice balance.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
And I think I always say those sort of if
you like the tween years and those early teens, I
think there is important as anything. Yeah, And I think
you know, like yeah, but with all speak, anyone can
kind of look after a baby.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
This is interesting.
Speaker 4 (16:07):
Actually, I got some really great advice from you know,
one of these incredible women leaders in New Zealand. I
think it's Als and Geary, and she said, you know,
when they're little, you know, you can outsource that because
it's really physical needs and so you know, you change
the nappy, you get them to go to sleep, and
so forth, and as they get older, they need you
more and more.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
So yeah, I thought this was a great period.
Speaker 4 (16:26):
I was talking to someone yesterday, police officer, who said,
you know, you really want to instill the values by
the time they're twelve, because by the time they're twelve,
they start going peer to peer, don't they in terms of,
you know, working out what their friends are doing, and
that's more important to them what their mum or dad
have got to say. So I reckon, I've got two
more years, one more year with my eldest who's eleven
next month, you know, to really shoven my values and
(16:48):
then you know, just see what that kind of foundation
goes for. So I thought, yeah, we're spending the time now.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
I think that's awesome.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
Okay, we're going to take a break at this point
because we're going to come back and we're going to
talk about your company, how it's offering support and advice.
We're going to focus on those who want to be
be a CEO or those that are, and how to
successfully lead a business. We are back with Casey are
(17:23):
Very CEO Rihannon McKinnon, and we're going to chat all
things becoming and being a successful CEO. So first off,
let's just talk about what makes a good CEO.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
Sure.
Speaker 4 (17:36):
I think a great CEO has wonderful leadership skills and
they're really good with people, hopefully. I mean, I suppose
it might be CEOs out there who aren't great with people,
but I really think it's around leading people to some
more star and saying this is the way and together
we can do this.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
I think that's sort of the number one thing thing.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
So is there a particular personality type that is or
is not suited to the role.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
Do you think That's a tricky question.
Speaker 4 (18:01):
I hate to rule out any sorts of personality as
I'm so into sort of diversity at that senior leadership
level and trying to encourage everybody to say it could
be you, why not you? That I'd hate to kind
of rule anybody out. You know, my personally, my own personality,
I'm pretty extroverted. I love chatting to people. But I
mean I know lots of introverted CEOs who do a
(18:21):
brilliant job. But I do think they often learn how
to talk to people and sort of bring people with
them and sort of learn how to sort of play
a little bit out of type.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Ye should everybody? Well, can everybody become a CEO?
Speaker 3 (18:35):
I was about to say, does everybody want to become
a CEO? I think I think you've got.
Speaker 4 (18:40):
To know why you want to do it. That's sort
of one of the big things, you know. I've got
a course and sort of lesson too, is why do
you want to be doing this? And if you just
want to be doing it because you think it's the
next step and you think it's important and you want
the salary, I think it's you're going to find it
a tough run. It's you know, it's really hard work
trying to, you know, drive an entire company organization in
one direction.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
So I think you need to be clear as to why.
Speaker 4 (19:03):
And when I did it, I thought, I've got a vision,
i want to do this better, and I've got these
great ideas about how you know, to make Kiwis better off.
Speaker 3 (19:09):
Et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 4 (19:10):
But when I reflect upon it, I think when you're
really clear about how you want to serve as a leader,
I think that's when you really start to sort of
really do some good work.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
Yeah, yeah, I can, because I mean, surely it's not
for everyone.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
Well it's not. I mean we say some pretty pause, but.
Speaker 3 (19:26):
They probably think it's for them.
Speaker 4 (19:27):
But I mean, if I think about you know this,
you know, the c suite that I had, you know,
not everyone wants to step up to do the next job.
You thinking, oh goodness, why would I want to be
doing that. I'd rather stay, you know, maybe more within
your subject matter expertise, for example, because by the time
you're at the top, you're not really doing as much
as you're used to. You're kind of leading and you're talking,
and you're managing, and you're filtering and you're doing all sorts,
(19:50):
but there's not so much of the doing the do
And if you actually like getting in the weeds and
getting stuff done, CEO is probably not necessarily the spot
for you, depending on the size of the organization.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Can we talk about how you managed yourself and that sort.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
Of time, because it was, you know, because you are
you're raising a family, You've got you know, your partner, husband,
you know, you've got all this other stuff sort of
going on and it's a lot, right, Yeah, how did
you find the time and the space?
Speaker 2 (20:15):
If you like to be that kind of thought leader as.
Speaker 4 (20:17):
Well, Yeah, you've got to be very conscious around how
you spend your time and your energy as well. I
think that energy management's a really interesting one. So time
is finite, but energy is actually kind of a replenishable resource,
So you know where do you get your energy from.
As I said, I'm quite extroverted, so going to meetings
and talking to people gives me ideas and gives me
energy and boosts me.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
For the day.
Speaker 4 (20:38):
But not everybody necessarily acts like that, so they might
want to make sure that during their day they've got
time to actually be by themselves or go for a walk,
or take some exercise or something like that.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
With myself and my husband in the last.
Speaker 4 (20:50):
Year that I was CE, he would get up at
the crack of dawn and go to work. I'll get
the kids off to school. I try not to do
meetings before about nine to fifteen in the morning because
it's just stressful. I suppose nine I could start, so
it's not a very early start, And then he would
go home for three o'clock and I would go home
and do course, and we'd have a family meal together,
and then often we would just sort of sit like
(21:10):
battleships in the evenings, like on the sofas and just
kind of get through the rest of the work. I
used to do a lot of my thinking, deep sinking
and writing work in the evenings because during the day
I was just talking and chatting and meeting and I
could never hit a flow. So if I was writing
board papers or actually having to do some actual thinking,
I do a lot of that in the evenings.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Were and as knowing your own rhythm, right, you can,
but it's mine.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
As you know, particularly i'm trying to solve a problem,
I will think about it and do not park it,
do something creative like whether that's prepare a meal, or
whether or not that's you know, reading, or whether you
know whatever that is. And then by then I'm an
early riser, so I'll wake up and go got it,
You've got it, and I will write and the.
Speaker 4 (21:54):
Night's sleep yeah, nowhereas I actually hit my floes in
the evening. So the meetings are done, the emails and
like the things that I was supposed to do, or
even the other way around. I've been faffing around all
day and I haven't done anything. A bitter sit down
into it now, yeah, And so I sort of sit
down and sort of the kids have gone to bed,
and finally that suddenly two hours will just disappear like that.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
For me evenings, and it was quite interesting.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
I was I was speaking to some high powered woman
yesterday and we ended up getting into a relatively deep
conversation and we were saying, and you've certainly mentioned it
as well, and that being a mum, it is different,
you know, like we were saying that, you know, I'm
I'm right out the other end. But you know, they
were saying, like, we're blessed to be married to you know,
(22:38):
extraordinary men that really step in and you know, we
couldn't be doing what we're doing without that kind of partnership.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Yeah, you know, no two ways about it.
Speaker 1 (22:45):
But they said, you know, he doesn't worry about whether
the uniforms clean enough, and he doesn't really get you.
He'll do anything I ask him, But I still have
to do all the thought stuff of where that preppers
and what's happening. And I mean that's probably a bit gendered.
And I hope there's some men screaming screaming at the
radio right now and saying no, it's not fear, But
there is a lot of it.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
I think.
Speaker 4 (23:06):
Yeah, I think you can read and hear a lot
about the emotional labor that I think is very, very
difficult to sort of outsource and that I think a
lot of women still get stuck with. Certainly, I've planned
the week's meals this week, and I've sort of told
my husband what he's cooking for dinner tonight because I'll
be home late from Auckland back to Wellington, so you know,
and I sort of do the line share of the
(23:27):
laundry and all those sorts of things as well. I
try and now see I think I might be the
last person of generation who still iron sheets. I can't stop,
just isn't right for me without it. But I now
try and see it as a meditative moment in my day.
So that's how I'm kind of trying to see it.
And I don't try and do yesterday I was listening
to your previous podcast as research. But normally I just
(23:47):
sit there doing nothing because I just let my mind
kind of empty, and that's the thing to do. But
I have to say it's a little bit pink jobs
and blue jobs, but he does do the blue jobs
as well, so you know, boring things like rubbish or
house maintenance and renovations or you know, the lawn's getting
cut and all those sorts of things he does in spades.
So yes, I do a lot of those home jobs
(24:07):
within the house. But you know, I definitely think if
you look at the marriage and the and what we
do together, he definitely does his fair share.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Well. When I was a senior minister and even Deputy
Prime Minister on Sundays, I used to read all my
cabinet papers and cook the meals from my family for
the week and you know, and people would just say,
I just can't believe you know you do that, and
I'd say, well, I'd like to think these are piece
of me with the meat to day.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
It's nice, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (24:32):
Like I'm not there during the week, really yeah, And
so i'd just like I'd say, well, a enjoy it,
you know.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
So you know I can some do both.
Speaker 3 (24:40):
Do you to do them simultaneously?
Speaker 4 (24:41):
Yeah, that's quite impressive because I've started, you know, someone
and I cook. I quite enjoy cooking and that I
find I can ruin cooking if I'm still checking messages
and all the rest of it. Like I'm like, oh,
so you just put the phone away and then it
becomes a zone.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Most of what I'm making is kesse roles and long
you know, because they're reading it during the week.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
Okay, so it's not something.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
That you're prep s it simmery match, you.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
Know what I mean, like that sort of thing. But yeah,
that was, you know, And so sometimes we do it
by choice, right, which is kind of cool. Okay, we've
all head got will have a touch of the imposter syndrome,
that kind of I love the fake it until you
make it kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
But how can you tune that into a positive insteed
of it being crippling?
Speaker 4 (25:26):
I think a positive way of looking at it is
if you say, if you've just started as a new
CEO and you're thinking, oh, my goodness, what am I
doing here? And I certainly woke up with butterflies and
my stomach every day for the first two weeks. I
just wake up and be like, oh my goodness, I've
got to turn off and be CEO today, and what
on earth does that mean? And that you go in
and you do it. And by lunchtime they were gone,
(25:47):
and by about three o'clock I was trying to go
to the pub because I was so spent. But but
you know, I think one of the really good things
you can do is actually think about the fresh questions
you can ask, So if you are a fresh person,
new job, you can ask a whole load of dummy
questions that no one has the guts to ask. And
also about the things about how things have been done
in the past where people kind of know that they're
(26:09):
kind of bonkers, but the previous CEO so they always
needed to be like that, or that was the pet project.
You go in and ask all the questions. You go
on a listening tour around your whole business and say like,
I don't know what happened in the past, but tell
me what do you think should be different, And you
can really start to leverage that as a as a
really useful thing, you know, leaning in and saying you
know that I just don't know, but I might here
(26:30):
to learn, I think is a really great way to
kind of turn that imposter syndrome around and sort of
use it to your advantage.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
Do we support first time CEOs enough because it can
be quite isolating counter I mean, and you've got to
be the boss.
Speaker 4 (26:44):
Being the boss is quite difficult just talking to somebody around, like,
especially if you get internally promoted, suddenly all your mates
and your peers aren't your mates and peers anymore. They
your direct reports, and that transition. I think those internal
transitions are almost harder than if you get parachuted in
and you're like, ah, you don't know me, but i'm
your boss now, So that can be really hard. I
think it is one of those lonely positions where you've
(27:06):
got a whole bunch of You've got your chair on
your board above you, you've got a whole sort of
senior leadership or executive leadership below you, and I kind
of liking it to being in the middle of an
hour glass and you've got sort of year and you're
filtering the information in both directions. You're deciding what out
of that leadership team information needs to go up to
the board. You want to paint them a transparent pitture.
You want to give them the information that they need
to make their own wise governance decisions. And then you
(27:28):
need to be filtering the board back to the leadership
team so they know actually what they should be carrying
on with. So it can be quite hard. And yeah,
you're definitely sometimes told things by the chair and board
that are super confidential and you really want to share
with somebody, and you've got nowhere to go, and that's hard.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
Yeah, yeah, really tough.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
And so do you think there is a certain background
or experience that you need to then be able to
steep up into a first CEO role.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
That's a great question.
Speaker 4 (27:59):
I think it really depends on the role, which is
a bit of a cop out answer, but I was
just thinking about succession planning earlier and how you know,
Casabury and COEO one on one might be able to
help with that. And I think one of the first
things a board needs to know is what they need
out that CEO. So what are the actual I suppose
specific hard skills and sector experience that they need from
that person so they understand things. But you know, going
(28:22):
back to those soft skills, I think being able to
understand and lead people, to understand strategy, to be able
to take risk and understand risk.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
I think risk is a really difficult one.
Speaker 4 (28:32):
And you know, as CEOs these days, a stakeholder landscape
has got a lot more difficult. I think you know,
back in the day, you just kind of made as
much profit as you could do, and you gave it
to your shareholders and you went home and you kind
of over on clapped and said you did a great,
great job. Whereas now I think when you look at
the sort of social stakeholder landscape, when you look at
the environment, when you look at social license to operate
and being a good kind of corporate citizen, I think
(28:54):
that has shifted quite a bit and so is more
nuanced and more difficult than it would have been.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
We have different expectations now, don't we all our companies
in our businesses and our leaders from within them, and
for a good I think for good reasons.
Speaker 4 (29:07):
Yeah, I think it's changed a lot. I think we
have a totally agree. I think more businesses are sort
of purpose led, and I think the younger you get
your generationally, the more that people expect more from the
companies to be delivering something more than profits to shareholders.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
Now, you started your business where you are supporting and
helping to grow cees and you sort of seed you
do that to from learning from your own mistakes? What
were some of them?
Speaker 3 (29:36):
What were my mistakes?
Speaker 4 (29:38):
I think you know, I've I got told of quite
a few times at the beginning for not making decisions.
So I'd be like, oh, this is difficult, and what
do you.
Speaker 3 (29:47):
Think I should do?
Speaker 4 (29:48):
And I would pass a decision sort of back up
to the board, and then i'd get quite you know,
slapped across the hand and say, we're paying You're the
CEO Rhiannon, and we're paying you to make a decision.
So you know you need to make it, and you
know you need to know the pros and cons and decide,
but it's your decision. This is what we pay you
the big butts for. You know, you don't pass it
back up. So that was quite an interesting one, and
(30:08):
there was a couple of times that I got got
told that once in week one week one. You can
probably you know, forgive me for it. And about a
few months later I was sort of told it again.
I had a really tricky one around, you know, a
big project that was being led by someone and I
wasn't sure about that that person being the right leader
or not. But I didn't have that my own subject
(30:29):
matter expertise in there, so I was really scared about
making a decision because I was like, I don't really
know what's going to make this project work or not,
but I feel like the leader isn't the right one.
So I did pull off the plaster with that one,
and it was it did turn out.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
To be the right decision because there's a mix there, right,
And you call it particulating, which I love because I
used it myself, you know, like and you know even now,
I still do quite a bit of consulting and someone
will throw something at me and I'll go, I need
to I need to sit and breathe on that one
for a while. You know, I've got a few ideas
in my head. Let me stay away.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
And so you do.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
So A You're right, you need to be able to
make decisions. But then equally, there's nothing wrong with not
being the instant decision maker where you can sider, sit
back and think something through.
Speaker 4 (31:13):
Yeah, I agree, And I think with some of those
really difficult ones, I did go and ask a whole
load of different people that I've kind of called up
people outside of the organization.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
I said, hey, I'm struggling with this. What do you think.
Speaker 4 (31:23):
I had a moment where I had the tech team
and the customer team were not seeing like to I
about an app that they wanted to push out, and
Tech kind of said, you're not ready, and customer was
desperate to get something in front of customers to show
that we're doing a good thing and that was a
really tricky one for me again, and I remember speaking
to a whole bunch of people who kind of said, actually,
those guys never get along. Yeah, like you know, was ever. Thus,
(31:45):
you know, the customer guys always want to get something
shining out in front of the customers, and they don't
really care what the back end looks like, and you
know it can all be a mess where is the
tech team probably want it to be perfectly coded and
to the never to be any tech debt and all
these other terminology and so you know these guys are
always going to be at odds and that's okay. So
then you have to sort of decide what's the most
important thing and how much you know we're the compromise is.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
Do you feel like you were well, I suppose I'm
going to come at this from two different angles. So
when were you treated differently because you were young and
a woman or do you think that and do you
think that held you back at all for asking the
questions or feeling that you had to prove yourself on
almost a daily basis.
Speaker 4 (32:27):
That's interesting chance and no, I think you know to
have got that role when I did.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
So.
Speaker 4 (32:33):
I was forty one, I was a woman, and I
had three kids at home, and I was working four
days a week and they gave me the shot. And
that's not sort of you know, that was actually probably
quite brave by them as well, given you know that
I didn't have that previous CEO experience and so forth.
And I felt very well supported through that period as well.
Like the board may have told me a couple of
(32:53):
times to sort of, you know, put my big boy
pants on and actually make a decision, but generally, actually
they were right there behind me.
Speaker 3 (33:00):
They were really helpful.
Speaker 4 (33:01):
So I don't think I suffered from that in those
in that particular scenario at all.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
And you do make the point, you know I was reading.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
You know, you make the point that if you're having
a day of doubting yourself slightly, then actually just trust
in other people that think you're great in supporting you,
because you wouldn't have got the job if you weren't
up for it.
Speaker 3 (33:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (33:21):
Absolutely, Sometimes just give you your friends a call and
let them big you up.
Speaker 3 (33:24):
I think that's really great.
Speaker 4 (33:26):
I've had some great friends who've supported me really fantastic.
Who you know, when I thought, oh, I'm not sure
if I'm going to take the job or not. I got,
you know, properly told off by a friend of mine
who was like, no, you take the job and we
will support you and we will have your back. And
this this friend of mine literally came out and put
my kids to bed one night shortly after took the
(33:47):
CEO job, and so she really she followed through.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
Yeah, it's extraordinary.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
Look, we hear a lot about life balance, and obviously
for you and the role that you're in, your choosing it,
which is fantastic. Do you do you think that people
are put off taking a role like CEO because they
feel like they're going to have to do the mess
of hours and the compromise that there does and can
we change it?
Speaker 3 (34:11):
Yes?
Speaker 4 (34:12):
I do think people are put off because I think
they think the hours are huge. I think one of
the things I really tried to do as CEO was
be really transparent about my life and how things worked
and also didn't work sometimes, you know. Of the when
I stepped down as CEO, I got told by quite
a few people that their favorite all staff calls was
the one that I'd promptly forgotten, which is when I
(34:32):
was doing it at home, doing my professional best, and
my then six year old came into the background, and
everyone's severely looking at the six year old, thinking what.
Speaker 3 (34:40):
She's going to do.
Speaker 4 (34:41):
And then she got this tiny figurine of pepper pig
and she put it on my head while I was talking,
and I sold it on as a real professional and
pretended that I didn't have pepper pig on my head
and carried on. And then then you know, the call
finishes it, and I suppose I tell off the six
year old and life goes on, and I forgot all
about it, you know, because I think it's quite embarrassing,
(35:01):
car said, and mind, They're like, that was our favorite
call ever. It was so good, and we love your daughter.
She's so brilliant. So but what I was really trying
to do is humanize that role as much as possible
and say, you know, I'm juggling as much as you
guys are during their lockdowns. You know, we had a
twenty twenty one lockdown. My kids were genuinely chaotic in
(35:21):
the background. In the afternoon, I sort of did a
period of the day when my husband looked after the kids,
and then we swapped and then we just kind of
went all kind of random in the afternoon just to
see what would happen. So I felt that gave real
permission for people. When I said I don't mind if
your cat or your dog or your child turns up
on the call, I really mean it because mine are
doing the same. So I felt that encourage a whole
(35:44):
load of people to believe that they could actually step
up and not be perfect, and they could be flexible
and they didn't have to be just kind of one thing.
And I thought that was when people said they went
for particular jobs in the organization because they saw how
I sort of balance stroke didn't balance it. That was
not some of my predest moments.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
Yeah, and it's real, right because we are We're all
just juggling a whole lot. Yes, no matter sort of
what stage you are at life. But it is completely
different when you're trying to parent because they kind of
depend on you quite a lot.
Speaker 3 (36:12):
They do, those little ones do.
Speaker 4 (36:13):
It was quite interesting in that first twenty twenty lockdown,
depending on where people were their parenting journeys to just
how hectic it looked and how frazzled people looked on
the calls because the toddlers and the babies, you know,
if they're not you know, they have to be watched
every moment they're awake, right, Whereas as they got older,
you know, they give an iPads or they were doing
online learning and stuff. So really, depending on how old
the kids were in the background, it made a big difference.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
What do you think is the hardest thing that you've
faced as a CEO?
Speaker 3 (36:39):
Oh, the hardest thing that I faced.
Speaker 4 (36:43):
I think leading people through a whole lot of change,
especially towards the end. You know, we got bought by
another company, and we knew that meant huge changes to
the you know, the company culture that we had built
and what the future lay for them. And that was
quite hard because we did have various layoffs and you know,
I could see them coming where ahead of everybody else
and keeping people really you know, on track and optimistic
(37:05):
and you know, feeling good about the world, but also
trying to be realistic about what really lay ahead.
Speaker 3 (37:10):
That was a really hard thing to juggle or balance.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
Yeah, yeah, because you're dealing with real people, right, yeah,
you know, with real jobs and families, as we've already seid,
and so that change for them can be quite unsettling
and you're having to lead them through that.
Speaker 4 (37:23):
Yes, we did, and you know, I had a probably
about a four week period so where I you know,
it was official that I was going to be leaving
the business, which is totally makes sense that in the
kind of idea of being brought by another business, you
don't need two CEOs.
Speaker 3 (37:36):
So I get that.
Speaker 4 (37:37):
I spent the last three or four weeks just going
around just having conversations with people and just trying to
make them feel good about what lay ahead for them individually,
which was the right thing to be doing. But you know,
a tiring time as well.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
So for someone that's thinking about skipping up, Yes, what
would your advice to them be.
Speaker 4 (37:56):
Well, I would say, first of all, why do you
want to do it? Are you clear about why? I
think that really helps you one sort of drive forward.
But also I think it's really important to divide the
role from the rest of your life. And I think
that's really important too. So the CEO is it's just
a job, right, and I think that really helps. By
the time you get up there, it doesn't have to
take over one hundred hours of your week. Yes, it's
(38:16):
probably quite time consuming, but you do need to have
a really good cut off and remain linked in with
your friends and family as well. So I think being
clear on your why is huge. And then I think,
just you know, I'm just so about the people, like
working on your people's skills and making sure that you
understand how to lead people, how to inspire people, and
then how to think about where you think that organization
(38:39):
should be going. That sort of vision strategy I think
is really important too.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
Yeah, fantastic, Okay, to end the segment, what do you
think is some of the best advice you've been given?
Speaker 4 (38:49):
Trust your gut, so you know when you especially when
you're so I've been talking about people and saying they're
so important, and I really believe that. It also means
it sounds terrible that you have to weed out people
that aren't necessarily the right people on your team as well,
and I think they're one of the best ways to
do that. And it was advice I was given was
trust your gut. If you kind of feel that that
person isn't the right person on your team today, but
(39:11):
you're thinking, oh, you know, I'm not sure I'm going
to give them another six months, another twelve months, in
six or twelve months time, you're going to feel the
same and you would have lost that time. So you
actually need to act now and act quite purpose purposefully.
So that trust your gut thing I think was a
really good piece of advice. And the sooner you get
your team around you, the sooner you can start really
getting things done.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
Yeah. I think that's amazing and really good advice. Rhannon.
Speaker 1 (39:45):
The podcast is called Ask Me Anything, and I've been
doing all of the asking, so this is an opportunity
if you would like to to ask me a question.
Speaker 3 (39:53):
Sure, I've got a question for you.
Speaker 4 (39:56):
We've talked in during this podcast about my transition from
leading and organization to what nurse I do next and
me thinking about all the things that I wanted to do,
and I'm still very much working it out. But I
look at your career as well, and you are Deputy
Prime Minister and so you had a huge leadership position,
much bigger than mine, and you've also obviously changed careers
(40:16):
again many times during your life, and I look at
what you're doing now, and you've got a huge portfolio
of different things you're doing. So please tell me about
your transition and how you've been thinking about it and
how you've been either building your portfolio or not, and
how you're going.
Speaker 1 (40:30):
Yeah, I suppose it's quite interesting because sometimes to work.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
Out what you do want to do, you have to
work out what you.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
Don't want to do, and it's quite interesting. I didn't
want to go and be a CEO, and I actually
didn't really want to although I'm a I'm a one
hundred percent of people person, but I actually didn't want
to manage people on a day to day basis because
I'd kind of done it and done it for years
and A I'd done staff, but B I'd also kind
of managed politicians.
Speaker 2 (40:58):
There's nothing more difficult than.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
You know, they kind of you know, raccoons with Raby,
some of them, you know, like it's it's you know,
like it's a lot right, and all under public scrutiny.
So I kind of knew what I didn't want to do,
and I suppose a bit like where you're at now
as well. Whatever I did do, it didn't need to
take eighty to one hundred hours a week, which is
what I had been doing. And I think, like most people,
I wanted choices. So when I kind of started going,
(41:24):
I know what I don't want, and then can add
in the things that I know that I enjoy, and
then you know, like I went, you know, I went
into that sort of commercial world and all.
Speaker 2 (41:36):
The rest of it. Love it, love the company culture,
you know.
Speaker 1 (41:39):
So that was what was most important to me, and
then it's become and then equally in the back of
my mind was always what's my give back? So that's
my why and that's what drives me. So you know,
my work was sea cleaners, which is my volunteer job.
You know, I probably takes up as much time as
anything else because it's my absolute passion and I love it.
(42:00):
And then you know, something like that make that goes back, say,
knowing me well enough to know what would get me
bouncing out of bed awesome and looking forward.
Speaker 2 (42:07):
To the day. But that's not easy. And you do
get to an age where you don't care.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
I don't care about what other people think, oh what
other people want? You do? What? You know? Well, say
this group that I was talking to yesterday and I
know them, but they're not they're not my besties, you know,
and they were just like, oh you you. The thing
you've taught us the most is the f off excuse me,
you know, And I said, well, I'm usually just saying
(42:33):
it in my head, and they were like, yeah, but
it's so powerful if in your head, you know, like
you choose who you work with.
Speaker 3 (42:40):
Yeah. I think that's great.
Speaker 4 (42:41):
I think I'm always trying to tell people just to
stop trying to please other people when they make their
own decisions. Like, you know, you've got all these different
people saying I want, need to do this, and that
you've got to make the decision for yourself, right, Yeah,
So yeah, I think that's great.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
Absolutely, Oh, thank you. Now we've got to and we've
got to give the sales patch now. So where do
they find you? And I mean I was saying to
you before we've been on here, I've already gone out
there and sentence to my daughter because she's just beautiful
and is just so incredibly smart and really wanting advice
on how she steps into that big leadership role. So
(43:15):
how can people find you in what you offer?
Speaker 3 (43:18):
Thanks, Paula.
Speaker 4 (43:19):
The easiest way to find me is probably just go
to CEO one oh one dot enz. That's where I've
got all my information around how to step up to
be a CEO. I'm writing a new course about how
to step up to be into the C suite as well.
So I'm really kind of trying to focus on those
moments of transition. It's for aspiring people as well, but
I think if you're just new into the CEO or
(43:40):
a sea suite role and like, what on earth do
I do? Now, that's a place to go where you
google my name Rihanna on which is impossible to spell.
Cassabury will get you there, also impossible to spell. I
don't know what I was thinking. So CEO one oh
one dot MZ fantastic.
Speaker 1 (43:53):
Well, thank you so much for coming and sharing all
this amazing advice and letting ask it to know you
a little bit more. I thoroughly enjoyed myself. And that's
it for another episode of Ask Me Anything. If you'd
enjoyed this episode, please follow Ask Me Anything on iHeartRadio
or where you get your podcasts. Make sure you check
out some of our past fabulous guests while you're there.
I'll be back next Sunday. I'm Paula Bennett. Ask Me Anything.
Speaker 2 (44:16):
Goodbye,
Hello, I am Paula Beuni and welcome to my New
Zealand Herald podcast Ask Me Anything.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Now.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
One thing eye bleut in life is it's never too
late to learn something new. So on this podcast I
talk to people from all walks of life to hear
about how they got to where they are and get
some advice and guidance on some of life's biggest questions.
Today we're going to focus on leadership, in particular business
leadership with some advice were both established and start out CEOs.
(00:39):
My guest is Cassiobury founder and CEO, Rhiannon McKinnon.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Rannon is one of the youngest ever leaders of.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
A New Zealand top ten wealth and investment organization when
she was appointed CEO of Kiwi Wealth inspired by the
mistakes she made which we've all got to be as
a brand new CEO, she is now CEO Coach of Sorts.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
In his here this year, her wealth of knowledge ran
on Welcome and.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Thank you so much Paula for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Oh it's great to have you here. Okay, quick fire questions.
If you could go to the pub with anybody your
live dead celebrity interesting, who would it be? Oh?
Speaker 3 (01:16):
My goodness, let's say Taylor Swift.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
I think she's amazing. I allowed to say that. Yeah,
I think she's such an incredible feminist. And there were
things that she does, you know, in the background, for
you know, her dancers, and for women, and for the
healthcare she provides.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
I just think, wow, what a what a career.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
And for girls.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Right, you know you love that that age when you're
so susceptible of that sort of eleven twelve thirteen. Okay,
I'm fifty five and I listened to her music. But
you know what I mean about those ones that are
just wanting to listen more to Taylor than they will
to you.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
Oh yeah, exactly.
Speaker 4 (01:47):
I've got a ten a nine year old daughter, and
so they love her, and I just think, yeah, what
a great sort of role mode on an example.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
I like that, And what would the drink of choice be?
Speaker 4 (01:56):
You see, I I've sort of been I've been readrinking
my Cosmopolitans of Youth recently. When I was in my
early twenties in London, I thought that was very sophisticated,
and now I'm sort of getting nostalgic, kind of started
drinking them again.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Ah, shout out to my listeners. I've gone back to
my passion fruit mehitos again. I do them when I've
got particularly when i've got children, because you make a
you obviously make a non alcoholic version, and they feel
like they're getting an absolute treat. Yet it's really just
passion fruit soda, water and a bit of bit of sugar. Really,
(02:34):
you're not filling them full of awful phizzy and they feel.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Like they're having a special drink.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
And then you get your vodka, all your white ramen
yours and you're happy.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
That's perfect.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
So I think that's my summer summer sorted.
Speaker 4 (02:49):
Men.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Okay, we're going to get some advice later on around
being an aspiring CEO, you know, how to become a
successful business leader.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
But let's get to know you about fear.
Speaker 3 (02:59):
So.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
You grew up in the UK. We've got a Welsh
father in a Chinese mother.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Did they really meet in the bus stop? Who really did?
Speaker 4 (03:06):
And it was raining and dad had a broken umbrella
and he got onto the bus and he saw my
obviously very beautiful mother and she saw him and he
couldn't even get his umbrella to go down on the
bus And thought he seemed strange, and then he followed her.
They went to the tube and they got on the
tube and he got into the same carriage and apparently
his opening line was are you a nurse? And goodness well,
(03:28):
I think as he was off to Bart's, which is
a hospital, and I think he just thought, you're going
in the same direction, and he got her address out
of her very naive Chinese lady, and he turned up
on the doorstep the next day and waited in the
kitchen for an hour with her flat mates until she
came home to ask her out.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
Yeah, that's quiet, it's nate, it's neat.
Speaker 4 (03:46):
I mean, I mean, whether it'd be a bit still
corrish in this day and age, I don't know. Bully,
he certainly kind of got their site.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
Well, and she gave him her.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
Yeah right, Yeah, she was very naive, I think.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
So she come from China to the UK, so it
was this in Ka, it was.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
In the UK, it was in North London. She'd been
in the UK for a few years. I think she'd
done her A levels at some boarding school in Yorkshire
and then she was at one of the London universities
doing biochemistry. But I think leading quite a kind of
secluded life until my father rocked up.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
I love it. I love it. So how on Earthlyn
did you get to New Zealand?
Speaker 4 (04:23):
So I when I was leaving my first job, I
was traveling around in Asia and I was staying with
a university friend. I was like, I'm going to go
up to Beijing and see what's going on up there.
You know, I've been to Beijing before. I'm half Chinese.
This is two thousand and four. And this friend said,
you've got to catch up with Kiwi while you're there.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
Kiwi was the New Zealander. The one New Zealander had gone.
Speaker 4 (04:47):
To the university that I'd gone to in the UK,
and he'd been nicknamed Kiwi. There was more than one
New Zealander there, and so I was like, I can't
go catch up with Kiwi. Haven't seen him in four years.
And he's like, you've got to stay with him. And
he's oh, no, no, no, I send people to stay with
him all the time. It's got he room. So give
him a call. So I called him and I said,
can I come and stay with you Kiwi? And he said, no,
no room. At the end, I'm go and stay at
(05:08):
our hotel.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
So I did that.
Speaker 4 (05:10):
Anyway, we hit it off brilliantly, and about a year
and a half later we sort of got our act
together and moved to China. After a year, I said, please,
let's move back to London. That's the place to go,
and he said, no, I want to move to New Zealand.
I want to go home, and so I just followed him,
got on you Yeah you mean up in christ too. Yeah,
that's right. So he had the potential job opportunity down there,
(05:30):
which never really transpired. But we hit the ground in
christ Church and you know, we got settled there. It's
been about four years down there, and then we moved
up to Wellington in twenty eleven.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
And you did an arts degree in history, is it right?
Speaker 4 (05:41):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (05:42):
I did an arts degree.
Speaker 4 (05:43):
I kind of knew that in the UK you can
kind of get away with not doing anything relevant like
finance or commerce. I kind of knew I wanted to
go that way, but that I could study something more interesting,
and I thought, three years, you've got to do something
that's kind of interesting. That's going to Yeah, it sounds
very specific, just one subject for three years. So I
liked history and I like the way that you know,
you think about how you argue things and different points
(06:05):
of view and bias and all that sort of thing
has been really useful in my career afterwards.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
And there is something in that arts degree and that
you know, and it's I know it's you know, the
old worn saying, but you know it doesn't necessarily to
teach you what to think, It teaches you how to think.
Speaker 4 (06:19):
Yeah, I think it's really that's what you do is
did a sociology degree?
Speaker 3 (06:22):
Is that right?
Speaker 1 (06:22):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (06:23):
So it's the same sort of thing.
Speaker 4 (06:24):
And I've heard Dawn Freshwater, who's a chancellor vice chancellor
at Auckland. You know, she's been talking about, you know,
what you need in an age of AI and you know,
those sorts of arts degrees actually suddenly then we might
have a new kind of flush of sort of acceptance
and take up because I think how to think, how
to ask questions becomes even more relevant.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
Mind Joe, I was, you know, I'm cheering the Border
farmic and we were going doing a very important paper
and at the front was my fellow board members and
all of their qualifications, and then mindset had a bit
of work experience. I think, you know, would you like
to agg my bachelor of that degree to the multiple PhDs.
Speaker 4 (07:03):
You've got something I was going at the university. I
went to kind of like switch my bachelor's into a
master's after three years. You just didn't have to go
to jail in between, and then it got upgraded. So
it makes me sound like I've done something more.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
So you do need to the top. I mean, it's
not plain sailing, is it.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
You know? And you talk about, you know, perhaps not
being in the right job at the right time, and
I think sometimes we feel like we're a failure if
we make a mistake in the sort of work environment
we go in.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
And can you talk me through that a bit.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (07:30):
I've definitely had periods of my career like a couple
of jobs, probably in a row actually, where I'd gone
from sort of doing really well and everyone thought I
was brilliant, and I at one point thought I was
brilliant as well. And when you know, in my early
mid twenties and the next job I went into, I
went to Morgan Stanley. It's a big American investment bank,
and I thought I'll give my give myself a go
at this. And I was a very very very small
(07:51):
cargon a huge wheel, and I didn't like it very
much and I had a lot to learn then. I
think I was quite an arrogant twenty five year old,
and I've got kind of cut back down to size
in a way that I look back now and I
think that's probably me, more me than them.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
But the next job I went into was good as well.
Speaker 4 (08:08):
But sometimes you end up in a position where you
feel that you know you're just not fitting in right,
and sometimes you feel like you need to stay until
you succeed before you leave on your high. But sometimes
I think it's actually worth quitting beforehand.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
It sounds terrible.
Speaker 4 (08:24):
But the next job I found him was like, suddenly
I was a blue eyed girl girl and everyone thought
I was brilliant, And so it just goes to show
that's like, you know, one month later, suddenly I've gone
from being sort of feeling like I don't fit in
and I'm not making progress and no one gets me
to people thinking I'm brilliant and I was exactly the
same person, which.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
Is good advice, right and end as well in the
context of a you know, whenever I'm doing any mentoring
or particularly with young people or you know, I always
say to them think more about the organization and the values. Yes,
at least about the role you're going to do. Yeah,
I think that's really goo because it's a smart company
will move you. Yeah, you know, like if you are
the right fetch ye, sometimes we're not the right fit.
Speaker 4 (09:01):
Yeah, Sometimes you're just not the right fit. And I
think that's okay. Yeah, And so to sort of retry
and go somewhere else, you know, company value wise, and
even sometimes specific manager that you might have, for example,
sometimes you get along well with the people around you
and sometimes you just end up on the wrong teams.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
And so you'd had lots of roles and things, and
obviously your experience was growing and everything else. But can
the steep up and to a chief executive role? I mean,
how did that come about?
Speaker 4 (09:26):
I mean you were working at KIEWI Wells, I was
at QUE well So I was on there sort of
senior leadership team or executive leadership team. I was in
a strategy role. I was doing that four days a
week by that point. And there was sort of a change,
you know, the board I think was changing at the
CEE and I think he was looking like he was
going to step down. And I thought, you know, I
(09:47):
kind of at one point kind of thought, well, if
I sort of put up my hand and say, you
probably need to run a real process to find a
new CEO. But what about me is acting, I'll hold
the reins for you. And that was an offer that
they thought, you know, they must have been desperate or something,
but they said, yes, we'll try you as acting and
it ended up being a sort of a nine month interview.
I would say yea, because I did that for about
(10:08):
nine months and then I was given the permanent position.
But by which point I think I've sort of hit
you know, pretty much all the goals, hoops, obstacles that
they had set me I had miraculously kind of jumped through.
So yeah, so I think it was It was pretty
exciting when I got the job. At the end of
the day, it's really cool.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
We're going to talk a bit about, you know, the
imposter syndrome and how we step up to it and
try and give some advice to some people as we
get a bit further along. But I wanted to touch on you.
I mean, you're quite outspoken. You know your own values,
don't you.
Speaker 4 (10:38):
Yeah, I suppose, so I think it's good to know
your own values. It's kind of kind of helps guide you.
It's great frameworks for life, and yeah, I think I do.
Is it?
Speaker 1 (10:46):
In twenty twenty two, you called out DGL CEO Simon
Henry for his incredibly awful and misogynistic comments about Nadia. Yeah,
did you need to think that through before you did it?
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Because it's brave and some of us are not courageous enough.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (11:03):
I didn't have to think it through that much. I
mean I saw the comments. I thought those are pretty outrageous.
I called the person who runs our responsible investment area
and I said, you know, does this sit within our policy?
What can we do about it? Is there something that
can be done? She said, yeah, on the basis of
the governance and the issues that really provides that in
that area, then you know, we can really blacklist this
(11:25):
company on that basis. And that was I think we
were literally able to do that overnight. You know, it
was a small enough company where a really we were
really clear about our processes around responsible investment by that point,
so you can make that action really quickly rather than
sit there and going what do we do about this?
So we could make that action overnight, we had an
ri committee, it was all signed off and then we
(11:45):
were able to say, look, we're not going to invest
in jail. We just think this is a real problem
in terms of what the CEO is saying, the comments
he's making, and the governance issues that it kind of
raises as well.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
And you know, I think it's important for us as
woman leaders to be sometimes speaking out for other woman leaders. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Absolutely, sometimes it's easier for someone to do it for you.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
That's true.
Speaker 4 (12:06):
Well, I mean I remember he made very specific comments
about Nadia being Eurasian, and you know, we talked about
my heritage as well, so it did sort of strike
home as well.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, So Kiwi Walth was sold and you
moved on at that time, and you had a sabatacle
with the family, did you.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
I did.
Speaker 4 (12:26):
We took about three months and we went back to Europe,
so from the UK originally, so we spent about half
the time in the UK and then we spent about
half the time on the continent Europe, mostly in Greece,
actually sort of shoving classical education down their throats and
we took them around the Peloponnese peninsula and just took
them to so many ancient sites like mum no more
(12:47):
ancient sites, and then they worked out they could get
slush puppies at the end of practically every visit, so
they kind of cheered up a bit.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
But it was really nice.
Speaker 4 (12:56):
I think, you know, I love New Zealand and everything
about it, but they're they're kind of the written history
of it is relatively short, and even if you go back,
you know, you've got probably what since the Polynesians and
Maria arrived, so probably eight hundred years, whereas you know,
with ancient Greece and stuff, you can go back three
and a half thousand and it's just mind blowing.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
Mind blowing back heads as well.
Speaker 4 (13:15):
Yeah, that's sort of trying to expose them to and
so I think they did get you know, they did
get a lot of exposure, so hopefully slightly formed.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
Okay, so you've taken you three months off, You've gone
and shoved a lot of history into the kids.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
I mean it must have been a change.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
I mean, you you know, you were in a high
powered role that was all encompassing and it just kind
of stopped.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
But what did the three months tach you?
Speaker 4 (13:39):
It's sort of when I was away for that three months.
I sort of percolating like various ideas. It was almost
like if you've lived in Wellington, when you go out
and buy a house, you've got sort of ten things
that you want to do, and you can never get
all ten things. You can't get the view without the wind,
and you know, getting flat access is impossible. And I
had this massive bucket list of things I wanted to
do next, and I thought, what do I want? And
the thing that plculated the top was spend more time
(14:02):
with the kids. So I got really clear on that.
I thought three months of the kids. I actually ended
up wanting to spend more time with them rather than less,
which was a revelation. And then I thought I'd like
to start my own business. I've been watching people do
my friends do it for years, and the grass has
always seemed really green over there.
Speaker 3 (14:18):
It's not that green now I'm over there.
Speaker 4 (14:19):
But like I've always thought, you know, people do these
things and they don't fail miserably and it's okay. And
and if I failed as well, I don't really mind anymore,
which is an interesting change.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
Has always been afraid of failing, but now like I
just get another job.
Speaker 4 (14:33):
And I wanted to work flexibly and do those sorts
of hours that around you know, the kids, and over
the long term work towards being able to spend a
couple of months in the.
Speaker 3 (14:42):
UK a year.
Speaker 4 (14:43):
So that's my real long term goal. And so all
of that led to let's start my own business and
give it a go.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
So that's what I did.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
Great, So you now run ksyoburry is how you say it?
Speaker 4 (14:54):
If you're from what Feared, you just say Cassbury, you
just do you drop half the syllables because it's a
bit lazy, but Cassie Berry is how you should pronounce it.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
And was it sort of your compromise and starting your
own business so that you've got still time with the
family and you can kind of juggle at all.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
Yeah, that's that's what I'm trying to do. I'm trying
to have it all.
Speaker 4 (15:11):
So the idea is that I work nine to three,
and you know, on most days I see the kids
off to school and then I'm there at three o'clock
and sort of run all that sort of stuff as well.
So it is a really nice balance, yeah, because it
goes so quickly with the kids.
Speaker 3 (15:26):
Yeah, exactly. And I think, you know, I always look
back and go wow.
Speaker 4 (15:29):
Talking pictures during lockdown the other day, and I just
could not believe the size of the children. And that
was four and a half years ago since lockdown, and
so most of them have kind of over doubled in
age since then and just blew my mind. So I thought,
if not now, like when they still want to hang
out with me, Yeah, let's spend some time with them.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
So it's working really well for now. You know, may
that continue?
Speaker 4 (15:50):
You know, never say never about how you change things
and so forth, but this is a really nice balance.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
And I think I always say those sort of if
you like the tween years and those early teens, I
think there is important as anything. Yeah, And I think
you know, like yeah, but with all speak, anyone can
kind of look after a baby.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
This is interesting.
Speaker 4 (16:07):
Actually, I got some really great advice from you know,
one of these incredible women leaders in New Zealand. I
think it's Als and Geary, and she said, you know,
when they're little, you know, you can outsource that because
it's really physical needs and so you know, you change
the nappy, you get them to go to sleep, and
so forth, and as they get older, they need you
more and more.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
So yeah, I thought this was a great period.
Speaker 4 (16:26):
I was talking to someone yesterday, police officer, who said,
you know, you really want to instill the values by
the time they're twelve, because by the time they're twelve,
they start going peer to peer, don't they in terms of,
you know, working out what their friends are doing, and
that's more important to them what their mum or dad
have got to say. So I reckon, I've got two
more years, one more year with my eldest who's eleven
next month, you know, to really shoven my values and
(16:48):
then you know, just see what that kind of foundation
goes for. So I thought, yeah, we're spending the time now.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
I think that's awesome.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
Okay, we're going to take a break at this point
because we're going to come back and we're going to
talk about your company, how it's offering support and advice.
We're going to focus on those who want to be
be a CEO or those that are, and how to
successfully lead a business. We are back with Casey are
(17:23):
Very CEO Rihannon McKinnon, and we're going to chat all
things becoming and being a successful CEO. So first off,
let's just talk about what makes a good CEO.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
Sure.
Speaker 4 (17:36):
I think a great CEO has wonderful leadership skills and
they're really good with people, hopefully. I mean, I suppose
it might be CEOs out there who aren't great with people,
but I really think it's around leading people to some
more star and saying this is the way and together
we can do this.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
I think that's sort of the number one thing thing.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
So is there a particular personality type that is or
is not suited to the role.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
Do you think That's a tricky question.
Speaker 4 (18:01):
I hate to rule out any sorts of personality as
I'm so into sort of diversity at that senior leadership
level and trying to encourage everybody to say it could
be you, why not you? That I'd hate to kind
of rule anybody out. You know, my personally, my own personality,
I'm pretty extroverted. I love chatting to people. But I
mean I know lots of introverted CEOs who do a
(18:21):
brilliant job. But I do think they often learn how
to talk to people and sort of bring people with
them and sort of learn how to sort of play
a little bit out of type.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Ye should everybody? Well, can everybody become a CEO?
Speaker 3 (18:35):
I was about to say, does everybody want to become
a CEO? I think I think you've got.
Speaker 4 (18:40):
To know why you want to do it. That's sort
of one of the big things, you know. I've got
a course and sort of lesson too, is why do
you want to be doing this? And if you just
want to be doing it because you think it's the
next step and you think it's important and you want
the salary, I think it's you're going to find it
a tough run. It's you know, it's really hard work
trying to, you know, drive an entire company organization in
one direction.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
So I think you need to be clear as to why.
Speaker 4 (19:03):
And when I did it, I thought, I've got a vision,
i want to do this better, and I've got these
great ideas about how you know, to make Kiwis better off.
Speaker 3 (19:09):
Et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 4 (19:10):
But when I reflect upon it, I think when you're
really clear about how you want to serve as a leader,
I think that's when you really start to sort of
really do some good work.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
Yeah, yeah, I can, because I mean, surely it's not
for everyone.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
Well it's not. I mean we say some pretty pause, but.
Speaker 3 (19:26):
They probably think it's for them.
Speaker 4 (19:27):
But I mean, if I think about you know this,
you know, the c suite that I had, you know,
not everyone wants to step up to do the next job.
You thinking, oh goodness, why would I want to be
doing that. I'd rather stay, you know, maybe more within
your subject matter expertise, for example, because by the time
you're at the top, you're not really doing as much
as you're used to. You're kind of leading and you're talking,
and you're managing, and you're filtering and you're doing all sorts,
(19:50):
but there's not so much of the doing the do
And if you actually like getting in the weeds and
getting stuff done, CEO is probably not necessarily the spot
for you, depending on the size of the organization.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Can we talk about how you managed yourself and that sort.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
Of time, because it was, you know, because you are
you're raising a family, You've got you know, your partner, husband,
you know, you've got all this other stuff sort of
going on and it's a lot, right, Yeah, how did
you find the time and the space?
Speaker 2 (20:15):
If you like to be that kind of thought leader as.
Speaker 4 (20:17):
Well, Yeah, you've got to be very conscious around how
you spend your time and your energy as well. I
think that energy management's a really interesting one. So time
is finite, but energy is actually kind of a replenishable resource,
So you know where do you get your energy from.
As I said, I'm quite extroverted, so going to meetings
and talking to people gives me ideas and gives me
energy and boosts me.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
For the day.
Speaker 4 (20:38):
But not everybody necessarily acts like that, so they might
want to make sure that during their day they've got
time to actually be by themselves or go for a walk,
or take some exercise or something like that.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
With myself and my husband in the last.
Speaker 4 (20:50):
Year that I was CE, he would get up at
the crack of dawn and go to work. I'll get
the kids off to school. I try not to do
meetings before about nine to fifteen in the morning because
it's just stressful. I suppose nine I could start, so
it's not a very early start, And then he would
go home for three o'clock and I would go home
and do course, and we'd have a family meal together,
and then often we would just sort of sit like
(21:10):
battleships in the evenings, like on the sofas and just
kind of get through the rest of the work. I
used to do a lot of my thinking, deep sinking
and writing work in the evenings because during the day
I was just talking and chatting and meeting and I
could never hit a flow. So if I was writing
board papers or actually having to do some actual thinking,
I do a lot of that in the evenings.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Were and as knowing your own rhythm, right, you can,
but it's mine.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
As you know, particularly i'm trying to solve a problem,
I will think about it and do not park it,
do something creative like whether that's prepare a meal, or
whether or not that's you know, reading, or whether you
know whatever that is. And then by then I'm an
early riser, so I'll wake up and go got it,
You've got it, and I will write and the.
Speaker 4 (21:54):
Night's sleep yeah, nowhereas I actually hit my floes in
the evening. So the meetings are done, the emails and
like the things that I was supposed to do, or
even the other way around. I've been faffing around all
day and I haven't done anything. A bitter sit down
into it now, yeah, And so I sort of sit
down and sort of the kids have gone to bed,
and finally that suddenly two hours will just disappear like that.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
For me evenings, and it was quite interesting.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
I was I was speaking to some high powered woman
yesterday and we ended up getting into a relatively deep
conversation and we were saying, and you've certainly mentioned it
as well, and that being a mum, it is different,
you know, like we were saying that, you know, I'm
I'm right out the other end. But you know, they
were saying, like, we're blessed to be married to you know,
(22:38):
extraordinary men that really step in and you know, we
couldn't be doing what we're doing without that kind of partnership.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Yeah, you know, no two ways about it.
Speaker 1 (22:45):
But they said, you know, he doesn't worry about whether
the uniforms clean enough, and he doesn't really get you.
He'll do anything I ask him, But I still have
to do all the thought stuff of where that preppers
and what's happening. And I mean that's probably a bit gendered.
And I hope there's some men screaming screaming at the
radio right now and saying no, it's not fear, But
there is a lot of it.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
I think.
Speaker 4 (23:06):
Yeah, I think you can read and hear a lot
about the emotional labor that I think is very, very
difficult to sort of outsource and that I think a
lot of women still get stuck with. Certainly, I've planned
the week's meals this week, and I've sort of told
my husband what he's cooking for dinner tonight because I'll
be home late from Auckland back to Wellington, so you know,
and I sort of do the line share of the
(23:27):
laundry and all those sorts of things as well. I
try and now see I think I might be the
last person of generation who still iron sheets. I can't stop,
just isn't right for me without it. But I now
try and see it as a meditative moment in my day.
So that's how I'm kind of trying to see it.
And I don't try and do yesterday I was listening
to your previous podcast as research. But normally I just
(23:47):
sit there doing nothing because I just let my mind
kind of empty, and that's the thing to do. But
I have to say it's a little bit pink jobs
and blue jobs, but he does do the blue jobs
as well, so you know, boring things like rubbish or
house maintenance and renovations or you know, the lawn's getting
cut and all those sorts of things he does in spades.
So yes, I do a lot of those home jobs
(24:07):
within the house. But you know, I definitely think if
you look at the marriage and the and what we
do together, he definitely does his fair share.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Well. When I was a senior minister and even Deputy
Prime Minister on Sundays, I used to read all my
cabinet papers and cook the meals from my family for
the week and you know, and people would just say,
I just can't believe you know you do that, and
I'd say, well, I'd like to think these are piece
of me with the meat to day.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
It's nice, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (24:32):
Like I'm not there during the week, really yeah, And
so i'd just like I'd say, well, a enjoy it,
you know.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
So you know I can some do both.
Speaker 3 (24:40):
Do you to do them simultaneously?
Speaker 4 (24:41):
Yeah, that's quite impressive because I've started, you know, someone
and I cook. I quite enjoy cooking and that I
find I can ruin cooking if I'm still checking messages
and all the rest of it. Like I'm like, oh,
so you just put the phone away and then it
becomes a zone.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Most of what I'm making is kesse roles and long
you know, because they're reading it during the week.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
Okay, so it's not something.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
That you're prep s it simmery match, you.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
Know what I mean, like that sort of thing. But yeah,
that was, you know, And so sometimes we do it
by choice, right, which is kind of cool. Okay, we've
all head got will have a touch of the imposter syndrome,
that kind of I love the fake it until you
make it kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
But how can you tune that into a positive insteed
of it being crippling?
Speaker 4 (25:26):
I think a positive way of looking at it is
if you say, if you've just started as a new
CEO and you're thinking, oh, my goodness, what am I
doing here? And I certainly woke up with butterflies and
my stomach every day for the first two weeks. I
just wake up and be like, oh my goodness, I've
got to turn off and be CEO today, and what
on earth does that mean? And that you go in
and you do it. And by lunchtime they were gone,
(25:47):
and by about three o'clock I was trying to go
to the pub because I was so spent. But but
you know, I think one of the really good things
you can do is actually think about the fresh questions
you can ask, So if you are a fresh person,
new job, you can ask a whole load of dummy
questions that no one has the guts to ask. And
also about the things about how things have been done
in the past where people kind of know that they're
(26:09):
kind of bonkers, but the previous CEO so they always
needed to be like that, or that was the pet project.
You go in and ask all the questions. You go
on a listening tour around your whole business and say like,
I don't know what happened in the past, but tell
me what do you think should be different, And you
can really start to leverage that as a as a
really useful thing, you know, leaning in and saying you
know that I just don't know, but I might here
(26:30):
to learn, I think is a really great way to
kind of turn that imposter syndrome around and sort of
use it to your advantage.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
Do we support first time CEOs enough because it can
be quite isolating counter I mean, and you've got to
be the boss.
Speaker 4 (26:44):
Being the boss is quite difficult just talking to somebody around, like,
especially if you get internally promoted, suddenly all your mates
and your peers aren't your mates and peers anymore. They
your direct reports, and that transition. I think those internal
transitions are almost harder than if you get parachuted in
and you're like, ah, you don't know me, but i'm
your boss now, So that can be really hard. I
think it is one of those lonely positions where you've
(27:06):
got a whole bunch of You've got your chair on
your board above you, you've got a whole sort of
senior leadership or executive leadership below you, and I kind
of liking it to being in the middle of an
hour glass and you've got sort of year and you're
filtering the information in both directions. You're deciding what out
of that leadership team information needs to go up to
the board. You want to paint them a transparent pitture.
You want to give them the information that they need
to make their own wise governance decisions. And then you
(27:28):
need to be filtering the board back to the leadership
team so they know actually what they should be carrying
on with. So it can be quite hard. And yeah,
you're definitely sometimes told things by the chair and board
that are super confidential and you really want to share
with somebody, and you've got nowhere to go, and that's hard.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
Yeah, yeah, really tough.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
And so do you think there is a certain background
or experience that you need to then be able to
steep up into a first CEO role.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
That's a great question.
Speaker 4 (27:59):
I think it really depends on the role, which is
a bit of a cop out answer, but I was
just thinking about succession planning earlier and how you know,
Casabury and COEO one on one might be able to
help with that. And I think one of the first
things a board needs to know is what they need
out that CEO. So what are the actual I suppose
specific hard skills and sector experience that they need from
that person so they understand things. But you know, going
(28:22):
back to those soft skills, I think being able to
understand and lead people, to understand strategy, to be able
to take risk and understand risk.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
I think risk is a really difficult one.
Speaker 4 (28:32):
And you know, as CEOs these days, a stakeholder landscape
has got a lot more difficult. I think you know,
back in the day, you just kind of made as
much profit as you could do, and you gave it
to your shareholders and you went home and you kind
of over on clapped and said you did a great,
great job. Whereas now I think when you look at
the sort of social stakeholder landscape, when you look at
the environment, when you look at social license to operate
and being a good kind of corporate citizen, I think
(28:54):
that has shifted quite a bit and so is more
nuanced and more difficult than it would have been.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
We have different expectations now, don't we all our companies
in our businesses and our leaders from within them, and
for a good I think for good reasons.
Speaker 4 (29:07):
Yeah, I think it's changed a lot. I think we
have a totally agree. I think more businesses are sort
of purpose led, and I think the younger you get
your generationally, the more that people expect more from the
companies to be delivering something more than profits to shareholders.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
Now, you started your business where you are supporting and
helping to grow cees and you sort of seed you
do that to from learning from your own mistakes? What
were some of them?
Speaker 3 (29:36):
What were my mistakes?
Speaker 4 (29:38):
I think you know, I've I got told of quite
a few times at the beginning for not making decisions.
So I'd be like, oh, this is difficult, and what
do you.
Speaker 3 (29:47):
Think I should do?
Speaker 4 (29:48):
And I would pass a decision sort of back up
to the board, and then i'd get quite you know,
slapped across the hand and say, we're paying You're the
CEO Rhiannon, and we're paying you to make a decision.
So you know you need to make it, and you
know you need to know the pros and cons and decide,
but it's your decision. This is what we pay you
the big butts for. You know, you don't pass it
back up. So that was quite an interesting one, and
(30:08):
there was a couple of times that I got got
told that once in week one week one. You can
probably you know, forgive me for it. And about a
few months later I was sort of told it again.
I had a really tricky one around, you know, a
big project that was being led by someone and I
wasn't sure about that that person being the right leader
or not. But I didn't have that my own subject
(30:29):
matter expertise in there, so I was really scared about
making a decision because I was like, I don't really
know what's going to make this project work or not,
but I feel like the leader isn't the right one.
So I did pull off the plaster with that one,
and it was it did turn out.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
To be the right decision because there's a mix there, right,
And you call it particulating, which I love because I
used it myself, you know, like and you know even now,
I still do quite a bit of consulting and someone
will throw something at me and I'll go, I need
to I need to sit and breathe on that one
for a while. You know, I've got a few ideas
in my head. Let me stay away.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
And so you do.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
So A You're right, you need to be able to
make decisions. But then equally, there's nothing wrong with not
being the instant decision maker where you can sider, sit
back and think something through.
Speaker 4 (31:13):
Yeah, I agree, And I think with some of those
really difficult ones, I did go and ask a whole
load of different people that I've kind of called up
people outside of the organization.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
I said, hey, I'm struggling with this. What do you think.
Speaker 4 (31:23):
I had a moment where I had the tech team
and the customer team were not seeing like to I
about an app that they wanted to push out, and
Tech kind of said, you're not ready, and customer was
desperate to get something in front of customers to show
that we're doing a good thing and that was a
really tricky one for me again, and I remember speaking
to a whole bunch of people who kind of said, actually,
those guys never get along. Yeah, like you know, was ever. Thus,
(31:45):
you know, the customer guys always want to get something
shining out in front of the customers, and they don't
really care what the back end looks like, and you
know it can all be a mess where is the
tech team probably want it to be perfectly coded and
to the never to be any tech debt and all
these other terminology and so you know these guys are
always going to be at odds and that's okay. So
then you have to sort of decide what's the most
important thing and how much you know we're the compromise is.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
Do you feel like you were well, I suppose I'm
going to come at this from two different angles. So
when were you treated differently because you were young and
a woman or do you think that and do you
think that held you back at all for asking the
questions or feeling that you had to prove yourself on
almost a daily basis.
Speaker 4 (32:27):
That's interesting chance and no, I think you know to
have got that role when I did.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
So.
Speaker 4 (32:33):
I was forty one, I was a woman, and I
had three kids at home, and I was working four
days a week and they gave me the shot. And
that's not sort of you know, that was actually probably
quite brave by them as well, given you know that
I didn't have that previous CEO experience and so forth.
And I felt very well supported through that period as well.
Like the board may have told me a couple of
(32:53):
times to sort of, you know, put my big boy
pants on and actually make a decision, but generally, actually
they were right there behind me.
Speaker 3 (33:00):
They were really helpful.
Speaker 4 (33:01):
So I don't think I suffered from that in those
in that particular scenario at all.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
And you do make the point, you know I was reading.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
You know, you make the point that if you're having
a day of doubting yourself slightly, then actually just trust
in other people that think you're great in supporting you,
because you wouldn't have got the job if you weren't
up for it.
Speaker 3 (33:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (33:21):
Absolutely, Sometimes just give you your friends a call and
let them big you up.
Speaker 3 (33:24):
I think that's really great.
Speaker 4 (33:26):
I've had some great friends who've supported me really fantastic.
Who you know, when I thought, oh, I'm not sure
if I'm going to take the job or not. I got,
you know, properly told off by a friend of mine
who was like, no, you take the job and we
will support you and we will have your back. And
this this friend of mine literally came out and put
my kids to bed one night shortly after took the
(33:47):
CEO job, and so she really she followed through.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
Yeah, it's extraordinary.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
Look, we hear a lot about life balance, and obviously
for you and the role that you're in, your choosing it,
which is fantastic. Do you do you think that people
are put off taking a role like CEO because they
feel like they're going to have to do the mess
of hours and the compromise that there does and can
we change it?
Speaker 3 (34:11):
Yes?
Speaker 4 (34:12):
I do think people are put off because I think
they think the hours are huge. I think one of
the things I really tried to do as CEO was
be really transparent about my life and how things worked
and also didn't work sometimes, you know. Of the when
I stepped down as CEO, I got told by quite
a few people that their favorite all staff calls was
the one that I'd promptly forgotten, which is when I
(34:32):
was doing it at home, doing my professional best, and
my then six year old came into the background, and
everyone's severely looking at the six year old, thinking what.
Speaker 3 (34:40):
She's going to do.
Speaker 4 (34:41):
And then she got this tiny figurine of pepper pig
and she put it on my head while I was talking,
and I sold it on as a real professional and
pretended that I didn't have pepper pig on my head
and carried on. And then then you know, the call
finishes it, and I suppose I tell off the six
year old and life goes on, and I forgot all
about it, you know, because I think it's quite embarrassing,
(35:01):
car said, and mind, They're like, that was our favorite
call ever. It was so good, and we love your daughter.
She's so brilliant. So but what I was really trying
to do is humanize that role as much as possible
and say, you know, I'm juggling as much as you
guys are during their lockdowns. You know, we had a
twenty twenty one lockdown. My kids were genuinely chaotic in
(35:21):
the background. In the afternoon, I sort of did a
period of the day when my husband looked after the kids,
and then we swapped and then we just kind of
went all kind of random in the afternoon just to
see what would happen. So I felt that gave real
permission for people. When I said I don't mind if
your cat or your dog or your child turns up
on the call, I really mean it because mine are
doing the same. So I felt that encourage a whole
(35:44):
load of people to believe that they could actually step
up and not be perfect, and they could be flexible
and they didn't have to be just kind of one thing.
And I thought that was when people said they went
for particular jobs in the organization because they saw how
I sort of balance stroke didn't balance it. That was
not some of my predest moments.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
Yeah, and it's real, right because we are We're all
just juggling a whole lot. Yes, no matter sort of
what stage you are at life. But it is completely
different when you're trying to parent because they kind of
depend on you quite a lot.
Speaker 3 (36:12):
They do, those little ones do.
Speaker 4 (36:13):
It was quite interesting in that first twenty twenty lockdown,
depending on where people were their parenting journeys to just
how hectic it looked and how frazzled people looked on
the calls because the toddlers and the babies, you know,
if they're not you know, they have to be watched
every moment they're awake, right, Whereas as they got older,
you know, they give an iPads or they were doing
online learning and stuff. So really, depending on how old
the kids were in the background, it made a big difference.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
What do you think is the hardest thing that you've
faced as a CEO?
Speaker 3 (36:39):
Oh, the hardest thing that I faced.
Speaker 4 (36:43):
I think leading people through a whole lot of change,
especially towards the end. You know, we got bought by
another company, and we knew that meant huge changes to
the you know, the company culture that we had built
and what the future lay for them. And that was
quite hard because we did have various layoffs and you know,
I could see them coming where ahead of everybody else
and keeping people really you know, on track and optimistic
(37:05):
and you know, feeling good about the world, but also
trying to be realistic about what really lay ahead.
Speaker 3 (37:10):
That was a really hard thing to juggle or balance.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
Yeah, yeah, because you're dealing with real people, right, yeah,
you know, with real jobs and families, as we've already seid,
and so that change for them can be quite unsettling
and you're having to lead them through that.
Speaker 4 (37:23):
Yes, we did, and you know, I had a probably
about a four week period so where I you know,
it was official that I was going to be leaving
the business, which is totally makes sense that in the
kind of idea of being brought by another business, you
don't need two CEOs.
Speaker 3 (37:36):
So I get that.
Speaker 4 (37:37):
I spent the last three or four weeks just going
around just having conversations with people and just trying to
make them feel good about what lay ahead for them individually,
which was the right thing to be doing. But you know,
a tiring time as well.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
So for someone that's thinking about skipping up, Yes, what
would your advice to them be.
Speaker 4 (37:56):
Well, I would say, first of all, why do you
want to do it? Are you clear about why? I
think that really helps you one sort of drive forward.
But also I think it's really important to divide the
role from the rest of your life. And I think
that's really important too. So the CEO is it's just
a job, right, and I think that really helps. By
the time you get up there, it doesn't have to
take over one hundred hours of your week. Yes, it's
(38:16):
probably quite time consuming, but you do need to have
a really good cut off and remain linked in with
your friends and family as well. So I think being
clear on your why is huge. And then I think,
just you know, I'm just so about the people, like
working on your people's skills and making sure that you
understand how to lead people, how to inspire people, and
then how to think about where you think that organization
(38:39):
should be going. That sort of vision strategy I think
is really important too.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
Yeah, fantastic, Okay, to end the segment, what do you
think is some of the best advice you've been given?
Speaker 4 (38:49):
Trust your gut, so you know when you especially when
you're so I've been talking about people and saying they're
so important, and I really believe that. It also means
it sounds terrible that you have to weed out people
that aren't necessarily the right people on your team as well,
and I think they're one of the best ways to
do that. And it was advice I was given was
trust your gut. If you kind of feel that that
person isn't the right person on your team today, but
(39:11):
you're thinking, oh, you know, I'm not sure I'm going
to give them another six months, another twelve months, in
six or twelve months time, you're going to feel the
same and you would have lost that time. So you
actually need to act now and act quite purpose purposefully.
So that trust your gut thing I think was a
really good piece of advice. And the sooner you get
your team around you, the sooner you can start really
getting things done.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
Yeah. I think that's amazing and really good advice. Rhannon.
Speaker 1 (39:45):
The podcast is called Ask Me Anything, and I've been
doing all of the asking, so this is an opportunity
if you would like to to ask me a question.
Speaker 3 (39:53):
Sure, I've got a question for you.
Speaker 4 (39:56):
We've talked in during this podcast about my transition from
leading and organization to what nurse I do next and
me thinking about all the things that I wanted to do,
and I'm still very much working it out. But I
look at your career as well, and you are Deputy
Prime Minister and so you had a huge leadership position,
much bigger than mine, and you've also obviously changed careers
(40:16):
again many times during your life, and I look at
what you're doing now, and you've got a huge portfolio
of different things you're doing. So please tell me about
your transition and how you've been thinking about it and
how you've been either building your portfolio or not, and
how you're going.
Speaker 1 (40:30):
Yeah, I suppose it's quite interesting because sometimes to work.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
Out what you do want to do, you have to
work out what you.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
Don't want to do, and it's quite interesting. I didn't
want to go and be a CEO, and I actually
didn't really want to although I'm a I'm a one
hundred percent of people person, but I actually didn't want
to manage people on a day to day basis because
I'd kind of done it and done it for years
and A I'd done staff, but B I'd also kind
of managed politicians.
Speaker 2 (40:58):
There's nothing more difficult than.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
You know, they kind of you know, raccoons with Raby,
some of them, you know, like it's it's you know,
like it's a lot right, and all under public scrutiny.
So I kind of knew what I didn't want to do,
and I suppose a bit like where you're at now
as well. Whatever I did do, it didn't need to
take eighty to one hundred hours a week, which is
what I had been doing. And I think, like most people,
I wanted choices. So when I kind of started going,
(41:24):
I know what I don't want, and then can add
in the things that I know that I enjoy, and
then you know, like I went, you know, I went
into that sort of commercial world and all.
Speaker 2 (41:36):
The rest of it. Love it, love the company culture,
you know.
Speaker 1 (41:39):
So that was what was most important to me, and
then it's become and then equally in the back of
my mind was always what's my give back? So that's
my why and that's what drives me. So you know,
my work was sea cleaners, which is my volunteer job.
You know, I probably takes up as much time as
anything else because it's my absolute passion and I love it.
(42:00):
And then you know, something like that make that goes back, say,
knowing me well enough to know what would get me
bouncing out of bed awesome and looking forward.
Speaker 2 (42:07):
To the day. But that's not easy. And you do
get to an age where you don't care.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
I don't care about what other people think, oh what
other people want? You do? What? You know? Well, say
this group that I was talking to yesterday and I
know them, but they're not they're not my besties, you know,
and they were just like, oh you you. The thing
you've taught us the most is the f off excuse me,
you know, And I said, well, I'm usually just saying
(42:33):
it in my head, and they were like, yeah, but
it's so powerful if in your head, you know, like
you choose who you work with.
Speaker 3 (42:40):
Yeah. I think that's great.
Speaker 4 (42:41):
I think I'm always trying to tell people just to
stop trying to please other people when they make their
own decisions. Like, you know, you've got all these different
people saying I want, need to do this, and that
you've got to make the decision for yourself, right, Yeah,
So yeah, I think that's great.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
Absolutely, Oh, thank you. Now we've got to and we've
got to give the sales patch now. So where do
they find you? And I mean I was saying to
you before we've been on here, I've already gone out
there and sentence to my daughter because she's just beautiful
and is just so incredibly smart and really wanting advice
on how she steps into that big leadership role. So
(43:15):
how can people find you in what you offer?
Speaker 3 (43:18):
Thanks, Paula.
Speaker 4 (43:19):
The easiest way to find me is probably just go
to CEO one oh one dot enz. That's where I've
got all my information around how to step up to
be a CEO. I'm writing a new course about how
to step up to be into the C suite as well.
So I'm really kind of trying to focus on those
moments of transition. It's for aspiring people as well, but
I think if you're just new into the CEO or
(43:40):
a sea suite role and like, what on earth do
I do? Now, that's a place to go where you
google my name Rihanna on which is impossible to spell.
Cassabury will get you there, also impossible to spell. I
don't know what I was thinking. So CEO one oh
one dot MZ fantastic.
Speaker 1 (43:53):
Well, thank you so much for coming and sharing all
this amazing advice and letting ask it to know you
a little bit more. I thoroughly enjoyed myself. And that's
it for another episode of Ask Me Anything. If you'd
enjoyed this episode, please follow Ask Me Anything on iHeartRadio
or where you get your podcasts. Make sure you check
out some of our past fabulous guests while you're there.
I'll be back next Sunday. I'm Paula Bennett. Ask Me Anything.
Speaker 2 (44:16):
Goodbye,
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