November 9, 2024 • 43 mins
This week, Paula is joined by her longtime friends, adventurers and humanitarians, Sir Graeme Dingle and his wife Jo-anne Wilkinson. They discuss their many adventures together, Sir Graeme's mountaineering and the important work they are doing through the Graeme Dingle Foundation. They also share their advice on how to improve the lives of our young people, how we can better support those who are struggling and why boot camps might not be the answer.
Sir Graeme's book, The Promise on One Tree Hill, is out now.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hello.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
I am Paula Bennett, and welcome to my New Zealand
Herald podcast.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Asked me anything.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Now, One thing I've learned in life is it's never
too late to learn something new. So on this podcast
I talk to people from all walks of life to
hear about how they got to where they are and
get some advice and guidance.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
On some of life's biggest questions.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Today, my guest is a couple I have wanted to
get on the podcast for a long time as friends
of mine and people I deeply admire. Sir Graham Dingle
is known as the father of outdoor adventure in New
Zealand and avid adventurer, mountaineer, humanitarian and founder of the
Graham Dingle Foundation. His wife, Joanne Wilkinson or Lady Dingle,
(00:49):
as a youth worker and co founded the foundation with
him and lawyer and both do incredible work with our
young people. I call them g and Joe. So we'll
just go with that.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
See how we go. But that did sound quite you know.
Now Graham has written his twelfth book.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
He can correct me if I'm wrong, but it's the
Promise on One Tree Hill. So Sir Graham and Joanne,
I'll be a little formal to start with. Thanks for
coming on in love to be here. Yeah, got okay,
send some quick far questions. If you could go to
the pub for a drink with anyone interesting, who would
it be?
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Jesus and Mohammed so we can.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Believer?
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Yeah, fascinating. Yeah, what a life drink of choice. You
mentioned wine a bit in the book.
Speaker 4 (01:42):
I've got to say I think we drink quite a
lot of wine.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Okay, We're going to talk all about the amazing work
you two do with the Foundations soon, but I want
to chat more about the two of you and how
you got to where you are. Graham, we're jumping ahead
a bit, but you talk in the book about losing
your voice, and so the people listening to the podcast
will notice that you're a bit croaky.
Speaker 5 (02:09):
Yeah, they probably think dying throat cancer.
Speaker 4 (02:13):
And it's a condition called spasmodic dysphonia, and it's caused
by just having too much fun for it.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
I was going to say, how do you get it?
Speaker 5 (02:24):
Yeah, you just have fun?
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Yeah, and it just and did it kind of just
sneak up on you.
Speaker 5 (02:30):
No, it just suddenly ran out one day.
Speaker 4 (02:32):
And I stopped doing public speaking, and then I accept
a talking job.
Speaker 5 (02:43):
And someone in the audience said, I can fix that
with botox. But it didn't work.
Speaker 4 (02:50):
No, no, no, for some people, it might for most people.
Speaker 5 (02:55):
It works for me.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
The muscles you say in the book, don't you accept
the muscles around the larynx. Yeah, are seizing it and
causing it. So does it give you any pain?
Speaker 5 (03:06):
No?
Speaker 3 (03:06):
No, no, it's just emotional banging.
Speaker 5 (03:13):
What was that? Was it?
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Okay?
Speaker 2 (03:16):
In the book you say you call the book a
love story, which I think is really quite lovely. So
let's talk a bit about your both. So how did
the two of you meet? Because I'm not instort of
I was all waiting for the joe and then I
even went did I read that or properly to go back?
Because it was kind of like it was quite fast.
(03:38):
I didn't get the good I didn't get the good oil.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
Well, it was actually very slow.
Speaker 5 (03:44):
Wild.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
So we had known each other as in a group
of friends since nineteen eighty four. Oh wow, okay, And
it wasn't until end of nineteen nineteen ninety one that
we sort of started making eyes looking at each other
differently because our relationships had.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Yeah, oh oh Graham, Oh j there you go. But
you're both adventurers, right, So and if you had that
group of friends and you've known each other as friends,
then you would know because you had similar interests, don't you.
I mean I would never have gone with Graham to
do those mad things you both do.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Well.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
When he asked me to go to the Arctic, I
said I can't do that because I was sporty as
opposed to adventury. And then I thought that's a bit
self limiting, really, so I'd better do it.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Yes, say yes, and then work it out later.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
Yes, Okay, So the romance is starting to bloom between
the two of you.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
So did you have any good smooth moves.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
Going, Graham or was it I mean, in the end,
Joanne had to propose to you, didn't she.
Speaker 5 (05:00):
It's true, harbort Bridge nearly lost one of these bits
of structure.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
Because you weren't expecting it, were you?
Speaker 5 (05:11):
No?
Speaker 2 (05:12):
And then you both kind of snuck away and had
a small intimate waiting and then didn't even tell anyone
no no.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
And is that just because it was for you both?
Speaker 3 (05:21):
Or I think our lives were quite complicated and busy,
and I we'd been together nine years by then, and
when Graham not only agreed but supported bringing my father
to live in a little place at our place at
(05:44):
Lee when he was very unwell, I thought, how can
I possibly hope for anyone better than that who supports
me like that and my family?
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Yeah. So, and during the seventeenth was coming up.
Speaker 3 (05:58):
I think it was during the seventh I must have proposed,
and I knew he wouldn't forget the date if we
got married on June the seventeenth, because that's the day
we completed the circumnavigation of the Arctic. Oh wow, okay,
so you know there's no issue with you know, anniversaries,
you know, not having to prompt them. So we designed
it all to happen in ten days and snuck off quietly.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
You won't be like me and Allen who were literally
driving along a few years ago.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
And we looked at it and are we And he said,
I mean what I went. I think we tacked over
ten years.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
A week ago in some week high fived each other.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
We must catch up for donners, so we both we
both forgets horable.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
So for you, Joe, as what's probably been your an
experience that you've found most challenging with the adventures that
you've gone on with Graham, you know, because you talk
about the intact and butched a tent and so you
know it's quite a different life.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
I mean it's not for everyone.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
Well, that first one to the Arctic, when I thought
I couldn't possibly do that, so I'd better, was a
huge learning about.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
Not being afraid of the unknown. What's the point.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
So let's just deal with things as they arise, so
problem solving as you need to, and being more resilient
than I expected I would be, And managing to cope
more or less with Graham's expedition leader mode when he
(07:40):
would ask my opinion, stroke advice and then completely ignore it.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
Yeah, and not explain why.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
I think once you survive those you're surviving a lifetime together,
aren't you.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
Yes, and we're thirty five years now, is that right? Yes?
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Yeah, Well I think it's proven the test of time
stick and they're both.
Speaker 5 (08:04):
Here a little noise and gun Graham.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
And wolverines, bears, moose real those with babies, yes, very dangerous.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
Wow, oh yeah, they would be protecting their young and yeah,
all of that, Oh well, that's big adventures so did
you grow up and did you grow up in an
adventurous family?
Speaker 1 (08:26):
To talk about those years now, I.
Speaker 5 (08:28):
Was regarded as a total odd ball.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Were you and your family?
Speaker 2 (08:33):
And so how did you get because you started, you know,
you sort of talk about it obviously and then but
did you just find that is your happy space when
you're out in nature like that and taking risks.
Speaker 4 (08:48):
I think the main thing is that as a child
I realized I was scared of everything, scared of just
unnatural things. And one day, I think about eleven, my
(09:08):
teacher said to me, Graham, you could be a great artist.
And up till then and I had been saying what
am I doing at this school? And when she said that,
I suddenly went, wow, well I can be something. And
I started to confront all the silly pears scared of heights,
(09:35):
scared of snakes.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
In my own it's kind of ironic when you're climbing
the highest possible heights, and I.
Speaker 5 (09:43):
Just confronted it.
Speaker 4 (09:44):
I just started going and climbing and saying it's scary,
but you can do it.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
And you met some fascinating people, I mean right throughout
but still are of course.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
But in those early years.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
Was it those, you know, because I keep thinking, well,
how do you learn to mountaineer? I mean, you know,
because it's not it's not like you kind of go
and do a course or you might now, but in
those back then you wouldn't have would you just meet
interesting people?
Speaker 5 (10:11):
Well, you could go into the course.
Speaker 4 (10:13):
But for me it was I found the attitudes and
climbing here in New Zealand really limiting and what I
wanted to be influenced by the best climbers in the world
who we repeents. And I met a man called Carla
(10:35):
Murray who was as gorgeous Austria, really northern Italy, and
he sort of inspired me and we got along and
he gave me some care and.
Speaker 5 (10:52):
Started using it.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
And you talk a lot about goal setting or you know,
and sort of setting yourself those kind of goals, and
is that part of what kind of thing drives and
motivates you to think about particularly about then this is
kind of what was next.
Speaker 4 (11:08):
Yeah, that was the big thing for me was discover
how to set an achieve a goal. It seems obvious.
I think it's one of the most basic things that
distinguishes us as human beings, that we can do that
(11:29):
and pursue it until we've achieved it. But in my case,
it was reading an extract from a magazine that said
that some extraordinary mountain ronical Cyclone Sinclair had run across
the Terros and seven hours and fourteen minutes.
Speaker 5 (11:51):
And I wrote down my little.
Speaker 4 (11:53):
Book beat cyclone Sinclair's record, and I did. I absolutely
smash it, skinny little kid.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
But I mean, I agree with Chuse.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
I'm a big goal setter and and a planner and
that sort of thing. But I also, you know, I
also challenge people. And you call them the gunners, right,
you know, the ones that just talk about I'm going
to do this, I'm going to do that, and you
you know, like the next year comes along and they're
still talking about it. You know, I suppose you're all
guilty of it as some stage, you know, I'm going
(12:26):
to go and do you know six months in America
at some stage.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
But that so it's.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
A reason not to But but yeah, you've got that
that combined now and you Joe kayaking, is it has
it always been your thing?
Speaker 1 (12:40):
No?
Speaker 3 (12:41):
No, so played all sorts of sport and was quite
good that sort of family. Yeah, and until Graham invited
me to the Arctic. I couldn't have pitched a tent really,
so no out no outdoors, no camping, no kayaking.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
So yeah, took on all the adventures rock climbing, kayaking,
mountain barking, which I lose.
Speaker 4 (13:11):
She's the only person I've seen protective face with her
feet when she was on a boat.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
They call me a white knutler.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
Ah, yes, yeah, yeah, Okay, we're going to talk about
that big trip that you did when you were sort
of waking up Project K and how you're going to
do that a bit later in the second half.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
I think, I mean, I know.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
You knew Sir Edge really well, and you know he's
he's just been so profound in all of our lives,
you know, someone that we admire, and I think he
just showed us the Kiwi spirit and everything else. But
we've seen recently the discovery of Sandy Irvine's boots.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
Boot wasn't it as one boat? Yeah? What do you reckon?
Speaker 4 (13:57):
People keep dread up this idea that they may have
got to the top is no chance. In my mind,
they were stuffed and they were coming down and they fell.
And yeah, my understanding is that the Chinese found.
Speaker 5 (14:21):
Mallory and the camera.
Speaker 4 (14:22):
Oh really nineteen sixty and the guy who found it
was swept away the next day into the wrong buck.
Speaker 5 (14:33):
So down in the ice and the wrong buck, there's
probably the camera.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
With a year go.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
So do you to still make adventures of everything from
building houses to where you lived to you know what,
kayaking to a wedding on Wayhi Ki? You know is
there still these made adventures going on?
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Well, the last one was rebuilding that house we little
house we bought, which was a.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
Demo job really on Atoming history and we did that
through COVID.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
So that was an interesting found here really yea.
Speaker 3 (15:14):
And the next one because we had this tradition of
taking each other to a place we hadn't been for
our birthdays. So Graham's birthdays coming up, so we're driving
down to the Catlans. I've never been to the Catten,
so we're looking forward to that.
Speaker 4 (15:28):
Extrawtry wouldn't you fly over it? Going to Tagnica, it
just looks like it looks like her giant crocodile. Ah yeah,
going into the see it some cletely been striated by
glasses coming out of the Alps.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Yeah yeah, yeah, So going to talk about the first
half of your life kind of being practiced for the
second half of your life.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
What do you mean by.
Speaker 4 (15:57):
That, Well, I mean mountaineering is great, but it was
really a series of very important lessons. I think the
first one, the most important one, is probably finding purpose
(16:20):
and being set goals and the business of achieving something
that teaches you a whole lot of stuff about yourself,
(16:42):
having confidence to approach untouchable people who might help, in
this case the organization. And that's one of the things
that we challenged the kids. We'd say, travel around Auckland
(17:05):
on the public transport and on the way, negotiate your
way into mounted in prison. Go ask Judy Bailey or
joneral to lunch.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
Yeah, they'd love that.
Speaker 4 (17:29):
Judy Bailey got so many flowers.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
So great. Yes, she wouldn't mind it at all. She
wouldn't mind at all.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
And that is that's that's having that confidence and that ability.
And it isn't almost an art to loarn, isn't it.
And yeah, yeah, because that's probably the opposite of you.
They couldn't shut me up.
Speaker 5 (17:50):
Well as a kid.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
So we owned the dairy and I used to literally
set out the front and talk to everybody as they
came in as a six year old.
Speaker 5 (17:58):
Yeah, I was so shy. Was I was pathetic?
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (18:03):
I would blush when I talked to a female.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
But you found, but you found your thing and your
thing that you were obviously extraordinarily good at.
Speaker 5 (18:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
Do you like writing?
Speaker 2 (18:15):
And do you do you write down as you go
to remember all because you know there's a lot in
this book.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
It's amazing.
Speaker 4 (18:22):
I love writing. I might writing or painting in my
spare time.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
And then did you have to write a diary to
remember these adventures and what you've done and whom you've met.
Speaker 4 (18:36):
Well, I've always kept diaries. Usually it just what I
did and what the date.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
Yes, that can be enough the way to to prompt it,
to prompt it.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
And get it going.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Okay, when we come back, we're going to talk about
the foundation for both of you and where that's at
and how that came about and what we're doing and
I think the incredible work that you do for young people.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Thanks for coming back in.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
We are with Sir Graham Dingle and Joanne Wilkinson or
Lady Dingle. So the two of you have had the
most amazing life ambition and Look, I've talked to you
guys about this a lot before and it was neat
reading those earlier years and all the rest of it.
But you kind of came back to New Zealand, if
you like, you've done some of those adventures and we're,
you know, we're kind of appalled at the statistics for
(19:34):
our young people and the fact. But instead of sitting
back and thinking you wouldn't do anything, you lett in
the two of you and started developing what was then
Project K was the beginning, wasn't it.
Speaker 5 (19:46):
Yeah, we went to.
Speaker 4 (19:52):
See the movie once were warriorts and we were driving home.
We said, well, you can built the wall around your
house and pretend the stuff doesn't exist. Let's do something
about it.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
Yeah, we did, and it really is trying to make
New Zealand a better place for all of our children
and young people. But you made the pledge, and hence
why the book is called the Promise on One Tree Hill.
So you say, when you made that dedication on One
Tree Hill that day, you were also dedicating Joe's life
to the course.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
Were you aware of that at the tie?
Speaker 5 (20:31):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (20:34):
I mean I was the bread winner at the time,
and grahmmed it all the research connections, developing concepts, getting
advice from people. You know, where was the gap, if
you like, We didn't want to replicate what was already happening,
(20:54):
and so I think that was about eighty months two years.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
So yeah, it was a pretty lean couple of years.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
But you also sat in the book Graham, that it
needed that level of rigor that you know you've done.
You've done the outdoor pisodes and you know, I'm certainly
not going to say that you winged it, but you know,
you knew what you were doing as far as working
with young people and being in that outdoor but this
one you certainly wanted to make sure that there was
that level of research behind it that you're helping to
(21:27):
meld mines.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
Right.
Speaker 4 (21:30):
Yeah, I felt that there were too many charities out
there that were winging it and not proving their outcomes,
and as Joe said, we didn't want to dupilicate stuff
that was going on. We wanted to make a real
(21:53):
difference in one space. And we discovered that that space
was kids who was getting towards the edge of the
cliff but hadn't yet fallen over it. And we thought
that we could make a difference there. The key to
it was identifying the level of risk. And once we
(22:16):
found that risk for the kids.
Speaker 5 (22:22):
So the.
Speaker 4 (22:25):
Initially we measured to get the right kids, we measured
self esteem. But that got us going, but it wasn't
holistic enough. And then we started measuring the self efficacy.
And so we'd measured the self efficacy of every kid
(22:49):
in year ten and off the Project Cave program and
took kids with the lowest self efficacy.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Okay, we better take stea sideways.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
So there'll be people that don't know about the Graham
Dingle Foundation and what you do. So explain one of you,
both of you what it is you do, what the
programs are.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
Let's explain it to people.
Speaker 3 (23:14):
So in twenty twenty four, we have about twenty seven
thousand kids in programs around the country, kids age five
three to twenty four, both school based and community based.
Positive youth development is if you.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Like the way we approach things. So it's.
Speaker 3 (23:37):
It's in schools, in the primary schools, it's all of school,
every year of their primary school that positive values, attitudes, behaviors,
give it a go, respect, integrity, you know, So you
can ask a six year old in one of our classes.
What does integrity mean doing the right thing when no
one's looking?
Speaker 1 (23:56):
Oh, you know, so.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
It's those and so is it almost a curriculum that
you've written that is in the classrooms and that is
being taught by your own people, by the teachers them.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
By our people, but with teacher support.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:08):
Yeah, So that's the primary school. We then have a
program that helps kids transition well into high school because
we lose a lot of kids through that transition, and
that has them being grouped with a smaller group of
seniors who have been trained as their peer mentors for
the whole year. Oh great, yep, And we call it
(24:29):
a four year cycle. So those first year nine then
become the seniors who are per mentoring their juniors, and
we're seeing the ben of huge benefits in the schools
about kids staying engaging and achieving because they belong it's
a community for them. Then there's the Career Navigator program
which helps kids find that purpose and direction in connection
(24:51):
into work or further training.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
Yeah, and just someone telling them they're good at something. Yeah, yeah,
which is your point.
Speaker 3 (24:59):
And the r K program remains, which is more targeted
for the kids in year ten and we have a
program for high risk years eight to twelve age eight
to twelve children who it's called Kiwi Tahi and it
in a sense works with the children and their families
(25:20):
to help re engage them into schools, into pro social
activities so that they don't go on to follow the
path probably of some of the kids in their family.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
Yeah, So why do we need you, you know, like,
you know, why aren't our kids able to have that
level of fulfillment and engagement. Sir John Kewan told me
off the other day for saying resilience, So I'm trying
not to say it.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
It's become an unpopular, weird but.
Speaker 4 (25:56):
It's used probably too much, sharp bidden, But I mean,
you can't ignore the fact that we have the highest
negative youth statistics in the world, and we can't tolerate
that kids giving up all hope and taking their own life.
Speaker 5 (26:17):
But I don't.
Speaker 4 (26:18):
Believe that it's just counseling that sorts the issues out.
It's a long term intervention that shows the kids that
they're worth something. You know, if you saw the winner
of our Ceremillary Award the other night at the Excellence Awards,
(26:41):
it was a kid who came from such a terrible,
terrible background and left school early and set up a
business and is just going for it.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
He is he was a Project A graduate, I really
and so Project CA.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
So you still do the wilderness component of it, and
you say in the book that there's kind of that
evidence that it needs like twenty days. So you do
this sort of three weeks where you're taking them out
of their comfort zone and then but then you can't
just bring them back and put them back in the
same environment for change. It is that long term mentoring
that you were saying, joan.
Speaker 4 (27:20):
Nurture them into the community that they have to live in,
show them the value of school, and then gradually into
life purpose.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
So why are so many of our kids broken?
Speaker 4 (27:38):
I think that we have this condition called a.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
Well, it's effectively adverse childhood.
Speaker 4 (27:49):
Yes, that's experience experience, so I can see violence. It
tizes them to the point where they become by themselves.
And I don't think we've acknowledged that we have that
level of.
Speaker 3 (28:07):
It's not just violence, though, is it It's it's physical violence.
I think it's it's multifested. I think there's poverty is
a huge issue, and you can't just say there's one factor.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
And right back to babies.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
I used to say to people, and you know, if
you're if you're a wee baby, that's not getting picked up,
it's not getting nurtured, it's not getting food when you
really need it. That's got chaos, you know, around them,
and that's when that little brain is wiring up. Then
the connections just can't be made as strong. And then
as that continues, you can see these children just genuinely
(28:46):
struggling to even understand the chaos that's in their lives
to then find their own path through its. Yeah, but.
Speaker 4 (28:56):
I find find it astonishing that we don't wrap up
around people who can make a difference. Well, we met
with David Telly the other morning to say how can
we support each other. There's a who's crucial to South Auckland.
(29:16):
He shouldn't be losing funding. It's just not right.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
And is that part of the biggest challenges that you've got.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
I mean we talk all the time.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
You know, running a charity, running a not for profit
organization and trying to get the level of funding that
you need is just constant, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (29:37):
Certainly as in an economic environment like this, it's you know,
many many charities are struggling and we're not different.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
No, and you're seeing the effects of that. Well, you're
worried about the effects of that, Like you've had a
reduction in funding. And it doesn't just come from government,
does it.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
I mean we're a very small proportion from government. Yeah,
you like it to be a bit more.
Speaker 5 (29:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (30:00):
The key to it is having a list of rules
that you don't break so you have the best possible
possible governance. Every step you take, you say, is the
sustainable behavior. You make sure you surround yourself with the
(30:21):
best possible people to deliver the outcomes. You prove your outcomes,
don't pretend that this works.
Speaker 5 (30:32):
So it's very important to have this list of rules
that you don't go around.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
But how frustrating is it when you have got proven
outcomes and over a long period of time. Now it's
not like it's been a couple of years, over a
long period of time, and it's perhaps not getting recognized
at the level of funding that you deserve so that
you can keep supporting these children and young people.
Speaker 4 (30:59):
Yes, totally frustrating. We had the most effective youth offender
program in the country by far eighty seven percent successful.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
And this is extraordinary.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
I mean I've been fortunate enough to have seen that
program multiple times and new Stephen and and that who
ran it, and in that context, just for those that
are listening, these are kids that are on the edge
of going to Yeah, the next day is present. These
are just making the point that this is not this
is not the kid that stole a lolly from the dairy,
you know, these are these are hard young offenders.
Speaker 5 (31:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (31:36):
So at a time when we're saying let's get heart
on chrome, is there any logic in that you say
that program will stop?
Speaker 1 (31:48):
Yeah, right when you need it the most.
Speaker 5 (31:50):
Let's spring in boot camps and frustrating.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
Yeah, yeah, just to see it.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
So when you you know, like as you said of
mentioned the book camps and we're talking a lot about
youth offending and actually in recent times as well, we've
seen youth on the on the roof of one of
our youth justice facilities, you know, and we're all pretty
quick to judge at times. What would what would your
advice be to people out there that are either a
worried about someone or judging someone or reading all this
(32:19):
stuff and just thinking, well, every young person's going to
hell in a hand basket, and I should build a
big fence around my house and not engage.
Speaker 4 (32:29):
Don't think about punishment, Think about how you can help
that young person.
Speaker 3 (32:35):
You don't know what their background situation has been, and
it's getting to the root cause that's going to solve
the issue for each young person as opposed to punishment.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
Yeah, I've really got to check out with this.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
True or not.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
But I was reading about this village in the UK,
you know, in this tiny village, and they were worried
about the youth were out of control and them were
starting to you know, bloody rat bags, and they're starting
to cause problems, and there's graffiti, and they're rude and
they're losing respect. And so they called the town meeting
and what they decided they would do is lean in
(33:11):
and look these kids in the eye and engage with
them and smile and invite them into their homes for
meals and do all these sorts of things. So kind
of this whole little village all decided they do it.
And of course, a few weeks later, the kids are
just like, what the heck is going on? So instead
of leaning out, they leaned in. You know, I like
so instead of going on pointing the finger and doing
(33:34):
all of that and punishing, they decided instead that.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
They would solve us with love effectively.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
Yeah, you know, like actually it's not them and us,
it's all of us.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
And yeah, so I always love that. So what's next?
What's next?
Speaker 2 (33:48):
As faras the programs, So you've got Chief, except you
are Chief accepted for quite some time.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
You go six years, yeah yeah, and.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
Then you've got some wonderful people in the organization, extrawdinary.
Speaker 4 (34:01):
And we're surrounded by incredible people outside of the organization
who just want to support us. And without then we
simply couldn't have kept going. But this year we have
expanded into the Kuiper Oh great, the support of an American.
Speaker 3 (34:29):
Family working directly with EWE, which is novel for us
and very exciting.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Yeah, fantastic and what And that's putting the mount in
the wilderness.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
That's project not Project K yet.
Speaker 3 (34:42):
We're waiting on funding, okay from a government fund actually
and potentially private funding. But we do have the Caine
Foundation funding for the Key we Can program in the
primary schools and the whole of secondary career Navigator Star.
So we've got kids all the way through. So it's
(35:02):
about eleven hundred kids started this year.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
Got it's a lot.
Speaker 4 (35:07):
Well, it's almost every kid in three communities.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
And so you're literally kite predicted to Dunedin and the cargo. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
And so to those of us out there you sort
of say in the book that you think it's everybody's responsibility.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
What do you mean by that?
Speaker 4 (35:31):
It's very easy to look at homeless people in your
community and say, there, they are not my responsibility, they
are our responsibility. And as I end at the back,
Eye mentioned some groups that we have seen in our
(35:56):
community that don't have anywhere to go. And I mean
just the other day we were coming back from walking
our dogs in the park and we sought this big
family living in a small van, and we thought about
it for a little while and we you know, people
(36:19):
don't have much cash now, but about twenty bucks and
went back and said, get yourself some fish and chips,
and the joy in that family, all the kids jumping
up and down and go whoaships.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
The small things can be as significant as the big one.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
Say, and even with drawing judgment.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
I often say to people as well, you know, before
you before you stand there and judge the young woman
or the baby on it happened the other one and
bare feet in the shop.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
That's, you know, trying to cope with all of this
before you judge that, just you. I've got no idea what's.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
Happening in her life, absolutely no idea of the hell
that she's probably going through. And she probably can't afford
to give those kids a lot, no, Yeah, so why
not instead offered to actually hold one of the children.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
And actually pay for her milk? Yeah, exactly, Yeah, Yeah,
because she's probably not feeling that good about life.
Speaker 4 (37:18):
Yeah, the example, I mean, those kids might remember that,
just for a long time, and that could make her
great difference.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
Yeah, when you're giving up, hope you can remember that
there are people out there that genuinely see you and care.
Speaker 5 (37:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
Yeah, Well, I wish you all the best, as I
always do, and I thank you for what you're doing
and for the dedication that you've both given. And I
mean that, you know, like it could have been easy
to have just sort of come back and kept going
on your own adventures and lived a pretty ordinary life,
and instead you've come back and used the skills that
you've got to live an extraordinary one for other people.
Speaker 4 (37:56):
Well, thank you, you're one of the people who is
really shun support.
Speaker 5 (38:02):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
I like to try and do practical things. Yeah to.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
In this segment, though, I'd like to know from both
of you, really, what do you think is some of
the best advice you've had? Because you've been given a bat,
haven't you. Well, you don't always take it though you're
a stubborn stubborn.
Speaker 1 (38:20):
Or you know him, you've met him. I'm cryme for.
Speaker 4 (38:25):
I think this was the hardest question, not better being asked.
But I go back to when I was twenty, I
fell off an ice flunt and hurt myself quite badly,
and I limped up to my mother and said, is
(38:49):
my dream to become a great mountaineer?
Speaker 5 (38:53):
The dream of a mad person?
Speaker 4 (38:56):
And she looked at me the quite alarmed look on
her face. Said, when I was pregnant with you, I
had this desired climb hills, and when you were born
it completely left me. And I've always been concerned that
(39:19):
it would be a mountaineer. But I accept it and
I think you should go for it.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
Yeah, she's saying, it's in your DNA, it's ingrained in
whom you.
Speaker 4 (39:32):
Are extraordinary advice, and through that I learned about myself.
Speaker 1 (39:40):
I like it. What about you, Joe?
Speaker 3 (39:45):
I think the thing that springs to mind for me
is as someone in my twenties, same sort of age. Interestingly,
I found myself kind of of trying to be something
I thought people would want, you know. But I found
(40:09):
myself telling little porkies to be that person and caught
myself doing it, and I thought, actually, I don't really
like that, and I so the advice I gave myself
was be who you say you are, don't be who
you think other people want you to be.
Speaker 2 (40:30):
Yeah, and that's wrong, right, That's powerful in its own
right because and we can see it more now with
social media and things that people are trying so hard
to please everybody else.
Speaker 1 (40:39):
And show the pictures of what a perfect.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
Life you're living, and yet in some respects they're probably
more isolated and more a lonely exactly. Yeah, Okay, well
I'm only asking, and this is called ask me anything.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
So you both, Oh gosh, I'm reluctant to do this.
You get to ask me something, got anything in mind?
Speaker 4 (41:14):
Graham?
Speaker 5 (41:15):
Yeah? Do you feel full fulled?
Speaker 4 (41:18):
You've had an extraordinary life so far, and it's only
not even halfway through. Do you feel happy and fulfilled?
Speaker 2 (41:32):
That's interesting. I kind of don't do the happy, do
you know what I mean? I just sort of think, eh,
you know, some days yes, and some moments not.
Speaker 1 (41:41):
You know, So I've sort of I don't. I've tried not.
Speaker 2 (41:45):
I think in my earlier years it was like, am
I happy and I've got to be happy? Now it's like, well,
I can be grumpy and just sit and read Graham's
book for the day and not talk to anyone if
I want to, and that's perfect and I'm perfectly happy
doing that. So I'm haay being unhappy at times, so
in that way, but I think fulfilled is a different thing,
and so I kind of want to say no, but
(42:07):
only because I feel like there's still something else in
and I think that so am my content and my
you know what I mean. Like I'm in a great relationship,
I'm an interesting work and things, but I still have
a burning desire to give back and a burning desire
to do something, And so you know, I'm not sorry.
I'm not sure I would say I'm fulfilled. I think
(42:28):
I can be filled up more.
Speaker 1 (42:31):
Long way at last.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
Yeah, yeah, well for everyone, right, you know, particularly you
know I I don't think we value our older people
enough quite frankly. We sort of think that you get
to an age and you're done, and it's like, well,
I've learned quite a lot in these fifty five years,
and I've probably got still a bit to do. When
you've both learned a lot in your years, we've still
got a lot to offer and a lot to give. Yeap, good, Okay,
Graham and Joan, thank you so much for your time today.
(42:54):
Where can people find out more about the Graham Dingle Foundation?
Speaker 1 (42:57):
So just Dingle Foundation in ze yep.
Speaker 2 (43:01):
Just go and have a look at all the programs,
look at how they can get involved. If you've got
someone you're worried about, look at how you might be
able to connect in there as well. Graham's book, The
Promise on One Tree Hill is in stores.
Speaker 1 (43:12):
Now. What I can say to everyone is well, it's
a real book.
Speaker 2 (43:16):
So it's heavy, and it's got a hard cover, and
the page is a beautiful to turn because I just,
you know, we get into that habit of them all
being a little bit on a kindle or light and
this is one that you really genuinely want to buy.
So that's it for another episode of Ask Me Anything.
If you've enjoyed this episode, please follow Ask Me Anything
on iHeartRadio or where you get your podcasts. Make sure
(43:37):
you check out some of our past fabulous guests while
you're there. I'll be back next Sunday with another interesting person.
Speaker 1 (43:44):
I'm Paul being Ask Me Anything. Goodbye,
Hello.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
I am Paula Bennett, and welcome to my New Zealand
Herald podcast.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Asked me anything.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Now, One thing I've learned in life is it's never
too late to learn something new. So on this podcast
I talk to people from all walks of life to
hear about how they got to where they are and
get some advice and guidance.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
On some of life's biggest questions.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Today, my guest is a couple I have wanted to
get on the podcast for a long time as friends
of mine and people I deeply admire. Sir Graham Dingle
is known as the father of outdoor adventure in New
Zealand and avid adventurer, mountaineer, humanitarian and founder of the
Graham Dingle Foundation. His wife, Joanne Wilkinson or Lady Dingle,
(00:49):
as a youth worker and co founded the foundation with
him and lawyer and both do incredible work with our
young people. I call them g and Joe. So we'll
just go with that.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
See how we go. But that did sound quite you know.
Now Graham has written his twelfth book.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
He can correct me if I'm wrong, but it's the
Promise on One Tree Hill. So Sir Graham and Joanne,
I'll be a little formal to start with. Thanks for
coming on in love to be here. Yeah, got okay,
send some quick far questions. If you could go to
the pub for a drink with anyone interesting, who would
it be?
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Jesus and Mohammed so we can.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Believer?
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Yeah, fascinating. Yeah, what a life drink of choice. You
mentioned wine a bit in the book.
Speaker 4 (01:42):
I've got to say I think we drink quite a
lot of wine.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Okay, We're going to talk all about the amazing work
you two do with the Foundations soon, but I want
to chat more about the two of you and how
you got to where you are. Graham, we're jumping ahead
a bit, but you talk in the book about losing
your voice, and so the people listening to the podcast
will notice that you're a bit croaky.
Speaker 5 (02:09):
Yeah, they probably think dying throat cancer.
Speaker 4 (02:13):
And it's a condition called spasmodic dysphonia, and it's caused
by just having too much fun for it.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
I was going to say, how do you get it?
Speaker 5 (02:24):
Yeah, you just have fun?
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Yeah, and it just and did it kind of just
sneak up on you.
Speaker 5 (02:30):
No, it just suddenly ran out one day.
Speaker 4 (02:32):
And I stopped doing public speaking, and then I accept
a talking job.
Speaker 5 (02:43):
And someone in the audience said, I can fix that
with botox. But it didn't work.
Speaker 4 (02:50):
No, no, no, for some people, it might for most people.
Speaker 5 (02:55):
It works for me.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
The muscles you say in the book, don't you accept
the muscles around the larynx. Yeah, are seizing it and
causing it. So does it give you any pain?
Speaker 5 (03:06):
No?
Speaker 3 (03:06):
No, no, it's just emotional banging.
Speaker 5 (03:13):
What was that? Was it?
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Okay?
Speaker 2 (03:16):
In the book you say you call the book a
love story, which I think is really quite lovely. So
let's talk a bit about your both. So how did
the two of you meet? Because I'm not instort of
I was all waiting for the joe and then I
even went did I read that or properly to go back?
Because it was kind of like it was quite fast.
(03:38):
I didn't get the good I didn't get the good oil.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
Well, it was actually very slow.
Speaker 5 (03:44):
Wild.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
So we had known each other as in a group
of friends since nineteen eighty four. Oh wow, okay, And
it wasn't until end of nineteen nineteen ninety one that
we sort of started making eyes looking at each other
differently because our relationships had.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Yeah, oh oh Graham, Oh j there you go. But
you're both adventurers, right, So and if you had that
group of friends and you've known each other as friends,
then you would know because you had similar interests, don't you.
I mean I would never have gone with Graham to
do those mad things you both do.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Well.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
When he asked me to go to the Arctic, I
said I can't do that because I was sporty as
opposed to adventury. And then I thought that's a bit
self limiting, really, so I'd better do it.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Yes, say yes, and then work it out later.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
Yes, Okay, So the romance is starting to bloom between
the two of you.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
So did you have any good smooth moves.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
Going, Graham or was it I mean, in the end,
Joanne had to propose to you, didn't she.
Speaker 5 (05:00):
It's true, harbort Bridge nearly lost one of these bits
of structure.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
Because you weren't expecting it, were you?
Speaker 5 (05:11):
No?
Speaker 2 (05:12):
And then you both kind of snuck away and had
a small intimate waiting and then didn't even tell anyone
no no.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
And is that just because it was for you both?
Speaker 3 (05:21):
Or I think our lives were quite complicated and busy,
and I we'd been together nine years by then, and
when Graham not only agreed but supported bringing my father
to live in a little place at our place at
(05:44):
Lee when he was very unwell, I thought, how can
I possibly hope for anyone better than that who supports
me like that and my family?
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Yeah. So, and during the seventeenth was coming up.
Speaker 3 (05:58):
I think it was during the seventh I must have proposed,
and I knew he wouldn't forget the date if we
got married on June the seventeenth, because that's the day
we completed the circumnavigation of the Arctic. Oh wow, okay,
so you know there's no issue with you know, anniversaries,
you know, not having to prompt them. So we designed
it all to happen in ten days and snuck off quietly.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
You won't be like me and Allen who were literally
driving along a few years ago.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
And we looked at it and are we And he said,
I mean what I went. I think we tacked over
ten years.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
A week ago in some week high fived each other.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
We must catch up for donners, so we both we
both forgets horable.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
So for you, Joe, as what's probably been your an
experience that you've found most challenging with the adventures that
you've gone on with Graham, you know, because you talk
about the intact and butched a tent and so you
know it's quite a different life.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
I mean it's not for everyone.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
Well, that first one to the Arctic, when I thought
I couldn't possibly do that, so I'd better, was a
huge learning about.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
Not being afraid of the unknown. What's the point.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
So let's just deal with things as they arise, so
problem solving as you need to, and being more resilient
than I expected I would be, And managing to cope
more or less with Graham's expedition leader mode when he
(07:40):
would ask my opinion, stroke advice and then completely ignore it.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
Yeah, and not explain why.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
I think once you survive those you're surviving a lifetime together,
aren't you.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
Yes, and we're thirty five years now, is that right? Yes?
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Yeah, Well I think it's proven the test of time
stick and they're both.
Speaker 5 (08:04):
Here a little noise and gun Graham.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
And wolverines, bears, moose real those with babies, yes, very dangerous.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
Wow, oh yeah, they would be protecting their young and yeah,
all of that, Oh well, that's big adventures so did
you grow up and did you grow up in an
adventurous family?
Speaker 1 (08:26):
To talk about those years now, I.
Speaker 5 (08:28):
Was regarded as a total odd ball.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Were you and your family?
Speaker 2 (08:33):
And so how did you get because you started, you know,
you sort of talk about it obviously and then but
did you just find that is your happy space when
you're out in nature like that and taking risks.
Speaker 4 (08:48):
I think the main thing is that as a child
I realized I was scared of everything, scared of just
unnatural things. And one day, I think about eleven, my
(09:08):
teacher said to me, Graham, you could be a great artist.
And up till then and I had been saying what
am I doing at this school? And when she said that,
I suddenly went, wow, well I can be something. And
I started to confront all the silly pears scared of heights,
(09:35):
scared of snakes.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
In my own it's kind of ironic when you're climbing
the highest possible heights, and I.
Speaker 5 (09:43):
Just confronted it.
Speaker 4 (09:44):
I just started going and climbing and saying it's scary,
but you can do it.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
And you met some fascinating people, I mean right throughout
but still are of course.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
But in those early years.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
Was it those, you know, because I keep thinking, well,
how do you learn to mountaineer? I mean, you know,
because it's not it's not like you kind of go
and do a course or you might now, but in
those back then you wouldn't have would you just meet
interesting people?
Speaker 5 (10:11):
Well, you could go into the course.
Speaker 4 (10:13):
But for me it was I found the attitudes and
climbing here in New Zealand really limiting and what I
wanted to be influenced by the best climbers in the world
who we repeents. And I met a man called Carla
(10:35):
Murray who was as gorgeous Austria, really northern Italy, and
he sort of inspired me and we got along and
he gave me some care and.
Speaker 5 (10:52):
Started using it.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
And you talk a lot about goal setting or you know,
and sort of setting yourself those kind of goals, and
is that part of what kind of thing drives and
motivates you to think about particularly about then this is
kind of what was next.
Speaker 4 (11:08):
Yeah, that was the big thing for me was discover
how to set an achieve a goal. It seems obvious.
I think it's one of the most basic things that
distinguishes us as human beings, that we can do that
(11:29):
and pursue it until we've achieved it. But in my case,
it was reading an extract from a magazine that said
that some extraordinary mountain ronical Cyclone Sinclair had run across
the Terros and seven hours and fourteen minutes.
Speaker 5 (11:51):
And I wrote down my little.
Speaker 4 (11:53):
Book beat cyclone Sinclair's record, and I did. I absolutely
smash it, skinny little kid.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
But I mean, I agree with Chuse.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
I'm a big goal setter and and a planner and
that sort of thing. But I also, you know, I
also challenge people. And you call them the gunners, right,
you know, the ones that just talk about I'm going
to do this, I'm going to do that, and you
you know, like the next year comes along and they're
still talking about it. You know, I suppose you're all
guilty of it as some stage, you know, I'm going
(12:26):
to go and do you know six months in America
at some stage.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
But that so it's.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
A reason not to But but yeah, you've got that
that combined now and you Joe kayaking, is it has
it always been your thing?
Speaker 1 (12:40):
No?
Speaker 3 (12:41):
No, so played all sorts of sport and was quite
good that sort of family. Yeah, and until Graham invited
me to the Arctic. I couldn't have pitched a tent really,
so no out no outdoors, no camping, no kayaking.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
So yeah, took on all the adventures rock climbing, kayaking,
mountain barking, which I lose.
Speaker 4 (13:11):
She's the only person I've seen protective face with her
feet when she was on a boat.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
They call me a white knutler.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
Ah, yes, yeah, yeah, Okay, we're going to talk about
that big trip that you did when you were sort
of waking up Project K and how you're going to
do that a bit later in the second half.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
I think, I mean, I know.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
You knew Sir Edge really well, and you know he's
he's just been so profound in all of our lives,
you know, someone that we admire, and I think he
just showed us the Kiwi spirit and everything else. But
we've seen recently the discovery of Sandy Irvine's boots.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
Boot wasn't it as one boat? Yeah? What do you reckon?
Speaker 4 (13:57):
People keep dread up this idea that they may have
got to the top is no chance. In my mind,
they were stuffed and they were coming down and they fell.
And yeah, my understanding is that the Chinese found.
Speaker 5 (14:21):
Mallory and the camera.
Speaker 4 (14:22):
Oh really nineteen sixty and the guy who found it
was swept away the next day into the wrong buck.
Speaker 5 (14:33):
So down in the ice and the wrong buck, there's
probably the camera.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
With a year go.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
So do you to still make adventures of everything from
building houses to where you lived to you know what,
kayaking to a wedding on Wayhi Ki? You know is
there still these made adventures going on?
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Well, the last one was rebuilding that house we little
house we bought, which was a.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
Demo job really on Atoming history and we did that
through COVID.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
So that was an interesting found here really yea.
Speaker 3 (15:14):
And the next one because we had this tradition of
taking each other to a place we hadn't been for
our birthdays. So Graham's birthdays coming up, so we're driving
down to the Catlans. I've never been to the Catten,
so we're looking forward to that.
Speaker 4 (15:28):
Extrawtry wouldn't you fly over it? Going to Tagnica, it
just looks like it looks like her giant crocodile. Ah yeah,
going into the see it some cletely been striated by
glasses coming out of the Alps.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Yeah yeah, yeah, So going to talk about the first
half of your life kind of being practiced for the
second half of your life.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
What do you mean by.
Speaker 4 (15:57):
That, Well, I mean mountaineering is great, but it was
really a series of very important lessons. I think the
first one, the most important one, is probably finding purpose
(16:20):
and being set goals and the business of achieving something
that teaches you a whole lot of stuff about yourself,
(16:42):
having confidence to approach untouchable people who might help, in
this case the organization. And that's one of the things
that we challenged the kids. We'd say, travel around Auckland
(17:05):
on the public transport and on the way, negotiate your
way into mounted in prison. Go ask Judy Bailey or
joneral to lunch.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
Yeah, they'd love that.
Speaker 4 (17:29):
Judy Bailey got so many flowers.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
So great. Yes, she wouldn't mind it at all. She
wouldn't mind at all.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
And that is that's that's having that confidence and that ability.
And it isn't almost an art to loarn, isn't it.
And yeah, yeah, because that's probably the opposite of you.
They couldn't shut me up.
Speaker 5 (17:50):
Well as a kid.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
So we owned the dairy and I used to literally
set out the front and talk to everybody as they
came in as a six year old.
Speaker 5 (17:58):
Yeah, I was so shy. Was I was pathetic?
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (18:03):
I would blush when I talked to a female.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
But you found, but you found your thing and your
thing that you were obviously extraordinarily good at.
Speaker 5 (18:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
Do you like writing?
Speaker 2 (18:15):
And do you do you write down as you go
to remember all because you know there's a lot in
this book.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
It's amazing.
Speaker 4 (18:22):
I love writing. I might writing or painting in my
spare time.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
And then did you have to write a diary to
remember these adventures and what you've done and whom you've met.
Speaker 4 (18:36):
Well, I've always kept diaries. Usually it just what I
did and what the date.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
Yes, that can be enough the way to to prompt it,
to prompt it.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
And get it going.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Okay, when we come back, we're going to talk about
the foundation for both of you and where that's at
and how that came about and what we're doing and
I think the incredible work that you do for young people.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Thanks for coming back in.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
We are with Sir Graham Dingle and Joanne Wilkinson or
Lady Dingle. So the two of you have had the
most amazing life ambition and Look, I've talked to you
guys about this a lot before and it was neat
reading those earlier years and all the rest of it.
But you kind of came back to New Zealand, if
you like, you've done some of those adventures and we're,
you know, we're kind of appalled at the statistics for
(19:34):
our young people and the fact. But instead of sitting
back and thinking you wouldn't do anything, you lett in
the two of you and started developing what was then
Project K was the beginning, wasn't it.
Speaker 5 (19:46):
Yeah, we went to.
Speaker 4 (19:52):
See the movie once were warriorts and we were driving home.
We said, well, you can built the wall around your
house and pretend the stuff doesn't exist. Let's do something
about it.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
Yeah, we did, and it really is trying to make
New Zealand a better place for all of our children
and young people. But you made the pledge, and hence
why the book is called the Promise on One Tree Hill.
So you say, when you made that dedication on One
Tree Hill that day, you were also dedicating Joe's life
to the course.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
Were you aware of that at the tie?
Speaker 5 (20:31):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (20:34):
I mean I was the bread winner at the time,
and grahmmed it all the research connections, developing concepts, getting
advice from people. You know, where was the gap, if
you like, We didn't want to replicate what was already happening,
(20:54):
and so I think that was about eighty months two years.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
So yeah, it was a pretty lean couple of years.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
But you also sat in the book Graham, that it
needed that level of rigor that you know you've done.
You've done the outdoor pisodes and you know, I'm certainly
not going to say that you winged it, but you know,
you knew what you were doing as far as working
with young people and being in that outdoor but this
one you certainly wanted to make sure that there was
that level of research behind it that you're helping to
(21:27):
meld mines.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
Right.
Speaker 4 (21:30):
Yeah, I felt that there were too many charities out
there that were winging it and not proving their outcomes,
and as Joe said, we didn't want to dupilicate stuff
that was going on. We wanted to make a real
(21:53):
difference in one space. And we discovered that that space
was kids who was getting towards the edge of the
cliff but hadn't yet fallen over it. And we thought
that we could make a difference there. The key to
it was identifying the level of risk. And once we
(22:16):
found that risk for the kids.
Speaker 5 (22:22):
So the.
Speaker 4 (22:25):
Initially we measured to get the right kids, we measured
self esteem. But that got us going, but it wasn't
holistic enough. And then we started measuring the self efficacy.
And so we'd measured the self efficacy of every kid
(22:49):
in year ten and off the Project Cave program and
took kids with the lowest self efficacy.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Okay, we better take stea sideways.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
So there'll be people that don't know about the Graham
Dingle Foundation and what you do. So explain one of you,
both of you what it is you do, what the
programs are.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
Let's explain it to people.
Speaker 3 (23:14):
So in twenty twenty four, we have about twenty seven
thousand kids in programs around the country, kids age five
three to twenty four, both school based and community based.
Positive youth development is if you.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Like the way we approach things. So it's.
Speaker 3 (23:37):
It's in schools, in the primary schools, it's all of school,
every year of their primary school that positive values, attitudes, behaviors,
give it a go, respect, integrity, you know, So you
can ask a six year old in one of our classes.
What does integrity mean doing the right thing when no
one's looking?
Speaker 1 (23:56):
Oh, you know, so.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
It's those and so is it almost a curriculum that
you've written that is in the classrooms and that is
being taught by your own people, by the teachers them.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
By our people, but with teacher support.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:08):
Yeah, So that's the primary school. We then have a
program that helps kids transition well into high school because
we lose a lot of kids through that transition, and
that has them being grouped with a smaller group of
seniors who have been trained as their peer mentors for
the whole year. Oh great, yep, And we call it
(24:29):
a four year cycle. So those first year nine then
become the seniors who are per mentoring their juniors, and
we're seeing the ben of huge benefits in the schools
about kids staying engaging and achieving because they belong it's
a community for them. Then there's the Career Navigator program
which helps kids find that purpose and direction in connection
(24:51):
into work or further training.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
Yeah, and just someone telling them they're good at something. Yeah, yeah,
which is your point.
Speaker 3 (24:59):
And the r K program remains, which is more targeted
for the kids in year ten and we have a
program for high risk years eight to twelve age eight
to twelve children who it's called Kiwi Tahi and it
in a sense works with the children and their families
(25:20):
to help re engage them into schools, into pro social
activities so that they don't go on to follow the
path probably of some of the kids in their family.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
Yeah, So why do we need you, you know, like,
you know, why aren't our kids able to have that
level of fulfillment and engagement. Sir John Kewan told me
off the other day for saying resilience, So I'm trying
not to say it.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
It's become an unpopular, weird but.
Speaker 4 (25:56):
It's used probably too much, sharp bidden, But I mean,
you can't ignore the fact that we have the highest
negative youth statistics in the world, and we can't tolerate
that kids giving up all hope and taking their own life.
Speaker 5 (26:17):
But I don't.
Speaker 4 (26:18):
Believe that it's just counseling that sorts the issues out.
It's a long term intervention that shows the kids that
they're worth something. You know, if you saw the winner
of our Ceremillary Award the other night at the Excellence Awards,
(26:41):
it was a kid who came from such a terrible,
terrible background and left school early and set up a
business and is just going for it.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
He is he was a Project A graduate, I really
and so Project CA.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
So you still do the wilderness component of it, and
you say in the book that there's kind of that
evidence that it needs like twenty days. So you do
this sort of three weeks where you're taking them out
of their comfort zone and then but then you can't
just bring them back and put them back in the
same environment for change. It is that long term mentoring
that you were saying, joan.
Speaker 4 (27:20):
Nurture them into the community that they have to live in,
show them the value of school, and then gradually into
life purpose.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
So why are so many of our kids broken?
Speaker 4 (27:38):
I think that we have this condition called a.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
Well, it's effectively adverse childhood.
Speaker 4 (27:49):
Yes, that's experience experience, so I can see violence. It
tizes them to the point where they become by themselves.
And I don't think we've acknowledged that we have that
level of.
Speaker 3 (28:07):
It's not just violence, though, is it It's it's physical violence.
I think it's it's multifested. I think there's poverty is
a huge issue, and you can't just say there's one factor.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
And right back to babies.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
I used to say to people, and you know, if
you're if you're a wee baby, that's not getting picked up,
it's not getting nurtured, it's not getting food when you
really need it. That's got chaos, you know, around them,
and that's when that little brain is wiring up. Then
the connections just can't be made as strong. And then
as that continues, you can see these children just genuinely
(28:46):
struggling to even understand the chaos that's in their lives
to then find their own path through its. Yeah, but.
Speaker 4 (28:56):
I find find it astonishing that we don't wrap up
around people who can make a difference. Well, we met
with David Telly the other morning to say how can
we support each other. There's a who's crucial to South Auckland.
(29:16):
He shouldn't be losing funding. It's just not right.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
And is that part of the biggest challenges that you've got.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
I mean we talk all the time.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
You know, running a charity, running a not for profit
organization and trying to get the level of funding that
you need is just constant, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (29:37):
Certainly as in an economic environment like this, it's you know,
many many charities are struggling and we're not different.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
No, and you're seeing the effects of that. Well, you're
worried about the effects of that, Like you've had a
reduction in funding. And it doesn't just come from government,
does it.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
I mean we're a very small proportion from government. Yeah,
you like it to be a bit more.
Speaker 5 (29:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (30:00):
The key to it is having a list of rules
that you don't break so you have the best possible
possible governance. Every step you take, you say, is the
sustainable behavior. You make sure you surround yourself with the
(30:21):
best possible people to deliver the outcomes. You prove your outcomes,
don't pretend that this works.
Speaker 5 (30:32):
So it's very important to have this list of rules
that you don't go around.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
But how frustrating is it when you have got proven
outcomes and over a long period of time. Now it's
not like it's been a couple of years, over a
long period of time, and it's perhaps not getting recognized
at the level of funding that you deserve so that
you can keep supporting these children and young people.
Speaker 4 (30:59):
Yes, totally frustrating. We had the most effective youth offender
program in the country by far eighty seven percent successful.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
And this is extraordinary.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
I mean I've been fortunate enough to have seen that
program multiple times and new Stephen and and that who
ran it, and in that context, just for those that
are listening, these are kids that are on the edge
of going to Yeah, the next day is present. These
are just making the point that this is not this
is not the kid that stole a lolly from the dairy,
you know, these are these are hard young offenders.
Speaker 5 (31:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (31:36):
So at a time when we're saying let's get heart
on chrome, is there any logic in that you say
that program will stop?
Speaker 1 (31:48):
Yeah, right when you need it the most.
Speaker 5 (31:50):
Let's spring in boot camps and frustrating.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
Yeah, yeah, just to see it.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
So when you you know, like as you said of
mentioned the book camps and we're talking a lot about
youth offending and actually in recent times as well, we've
seen youth on the on the roof of one of
our youth justice facilities, you know, and we're all pretty
quick to judge at times. What would what would your
advice be to people out there that are either a
worried about someone or judging someone or reading all this
(32:19):
stuff and just thinking, well, every young person's going to
hell in a hand basket, and I should build a
big fence around my house and not engage.
Speaker 4 (32:29):
Don't think about punishment, Think about how you can help
that young person.
Speaker 3 (32:35):
You don't know what their background situation has been, and
it's getting to the root cause that's going to solve
the issue for each young person as opposed to punishment.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
Yeah, I've really got to check out with this.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
True or not.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
But I was reading about this village in the UK,
you know, in this tiny village, and they were worried
about the youth were out of control and them were
starting to you know, bloody rat bags, and they're starting
to cause problems, and there's graffiti, and they're rude and
they're losing respect. And so they called the town meeting
and what they decided they would do is lean in
(33:11):
and look these kids in the eye and engage with
them and smile and invite them into their homes for
meals and do all these sorts of things. So kind
of this whole little village all decided they do it.
And of course, a few weeks later, the kids are
just like, what the heck is going on? So instead
of leaning out, they leaned in. You know, I like
so instead of going on pointing the finger and doing
(33:34):
all of that and punishing, they decided instead that.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
They would solve us with love effectively.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
Yeah, you know, like actually it's not them and us,
it's all of us.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
And yeah, so I always love that. So what's next?
What's next?
Speaker 2 (33:48):
As faras the programs, So you've got Chief, except you
are Chief accepted for quite some time.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
You go six years, yeah yeah, and.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
Then you've got some wonderful people in the organization, extrawdinary.
Speaker 4 (34:01):
And we're surrounded by incredible people outside of the organization
who just want to support us. And without then we
simply couldn't have kept going. But this year we have
expanded into the Kuiper Oh great, the support of an American.
Speaker 3 (34:29):
Family working directly with EWE, which is novel for us
and very exciting.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Yeah, fantastic and what And that's putting the mount in
the wilderness.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
That's project not Project K yet.
Speaker 3 (34:42):
We're waiting on funding, okay from a government fund actually
and potentially private funding. But we do have the Caine
Foundation funding for the Key we Can program in the
primary schools and the whole of secondary career Navigator Star.
So we've got kids all the way through. So it's
(35:02):
about eleven hundred kids started this year.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
Got it's a lot.
Speaker 4 (35:07):
Well, it's almost every kid in three communities.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
And so you're literally kite predicted to Dunedin and the cargo. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
And so to those of us out there you sort
of say in the book that you think it's everybody's responsibility.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
What do you mean by that?
Speaker 4 (35:31):
It's very easy to look at homeless people in your
community and say, there, they are not my responsibility, they
are our responsibility. And as I end at the back,
Eye mentioned some groups that we have seen in our
(35:56):
community that don't have anywhere to go. And I mean
just the other day we were coming back from walking
our dogs in the park and we sought this big
family living in a small van, and we thought about
it for a little while and we you know, people
(36:19):
don't have much cash now, but about twenty bucks and
went back and said, get yourself some fish and chips,
and the joy in that family, all the kids jumping
up and down and go whoaships.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
The small things can be as significant as the big one.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
Say, and even with drawing judgment.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
I often say to people as well, you know, before
you before you stand there and judge the young woman
or the baby on it happened the other one and
bare feet in the shop.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
That's, you know, trying to cope with all of this
before you judge that, just you. I've got no idea what's.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
Happening in her life, absolutely no idea of the hell
that she's probably going through. And she probably can't afford
to give those kids a lot, no, Yeah, so why
not instead offered to actually hold one of the children.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
And actually pay for her milk? Yeah, exactly, Yeah, Yeah,
because she's probably not feeling that good about life.
Speaker 4 (37:18):
Yeah, the example, I mean, those kids might remember that,
just for a long time, and that could make her
great difference.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
Yeah, when you're giving up, hope you can remember that
there are people out there that genuinely see you and care.
Speaker 5 (37:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
Yeah, Well, I wish you all the best, as I
always do, and I thank you for what you're doing
and for the dedication that you've both given. And I
mean that, you know, like it could have been easy
to have just sort of come back and kept going
on your own adventures and lived a pretty ordinary life,
and instead you've come back and used the skills that
you've got to live an extraordinary one for other people.
Speaker 4 (37:56):
Well, thank you, you're one of the people who is
really shun support.
Speaker 5 (38:02):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
I like to try and do practical things. Yeah to.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
In this segment, though, I'd like to know from both
of you, really, what do you think is some of
the best advice you've had? Because you've been given a bat,
haven't you. Well, you don't always take it though you're
a stubborn stubborn.
Speaker 1 (38:20):
Or you know him, you've met him. I'm cryme for.
Speaker 4 (38:25):
I think this was the hardest question, not better being asked.
But I go back to when I was twenty, I
fell off an ice flunt and hurt myself quite badly,
and I limped up to my mother and said, is
(38:49):
my dream to become a great mountaineer?
Speaker 5 (38:53):
The dream of a mad person?
Speaker 4 (38:56):
And she looked at me the quite alarmed look on
her face. Said, when I was pregnant with you, I
had this desired climb hills, and when you were born
it completely left me. And I've always been concerned that
(39:19):
it would be a mountaineer. But I accept it and
I think you should go for it.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
Yeah, she's saying, it's in your DNA, it's ingrained in
whom you.
Speaker 4 (39:32):
Are extraordinary advice, and through that I learned about myself.
Speaker 1 (39:40):
I like it. What about you, Joe?
Speaker 3 (39:45):
I think the thing that springs to mind for me
is as someone in my twenties, same sort of age. Interestingly,
I found myself kind of of trying to be something
I thought people would want, you know. But I found
(40:09):
myself telling little porkies to be that person and caught
myself doing it, and I thought, actually, I don't really
like that, and I so the advice I gave myself
was be who you say you are, don't be who
you think other people want you to be.
Speaker 2 (40:30):
Yeah, and that's wrong, right, That's powerful in its own
right because and we can see it more now with
social media and things that people are trying so hard
to please everybody else.
Speaker 1 (40:39):
And show the pictures of what a perfect.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
Life you're living, and yet in some respects they're probably
more isolated and more a lonely exactly. Yeah, Okay, well
I'm only asking, and this is called ask me anything.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
So you both, Oh gosh, I'm reluctant to do this.
You get to ask me something, got anything in mind?
Speaker 4 (41:14):
Graham?
Speaker 5 (41:15):
Yeah? Do you feel full fulled?
Speaker 4 (41:18):
You've had an extraordinary life so far, and it's only
not even halfway through. Do you feel happy and fulfilled?
Speaker 2 (41:32):
That's interesting. I kind of don't do the happy, do
you know what I mean? I just sort of think, eh,
you know, some days yes, and some moments not.
Speaker 1 (41:41):
You know, So I've sort of I don't. I've tried not.
Speaker 2 (41:45):
I think in my earlier years it was like, am
I happy and I've got to be happy? Now it's like, well,
I can be grumpy and just sit and read Graham's
book for the day and not talk to anyone if
I want to, and that's perfect and I'm perfectly happy
doing that. So I'm haay being unhappy at times, so
in that way, but I think fulfilled is a different thing,
and so I kind of want to say no, but
(42:07):
only because I feel like there's still something else in
and I think that so am my content and my
you know what I mean. Like I'm in a great relationship,
I'm an interesting work and things, but I still have
a burning desire to give back and a burning desire
to do something, And so you know, I'm not sorry.
I'm not sure I would say I'm fulfilled. I think
(42:28):
I can be filled up more.
Speaker 1 (42:31):
Long way at last.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
Yeah, yeah, well for everyone, right, you know, particularly you
know I I don't think we value our older people
enough quite frankly. We sort of think that you get
to an age and you're done, and it's like, well,
I've learned quite a lot in these fifty five years,
and I've probably got still a bit to do. When
you've both learned a lot in your years, we've still
got a lot to offer and a lot to give. Yeap, good, Okay,
Graham and Joan, thank you so much for your time today.
(42:54):
Where can people find out more about the Graham Dingle Foundation?
Speaker 1 (42:57):
So just Dingle Foundation in ze yep.
Speaker 2 (43:01):
Just go and have a look at all the programs,
look at how they can get involved. If you've got
someone you're worried about, look at how you might be
able to connect in there as well. Graham's book, The
Promise on One Tree Hill is in stores.
Speaker 1 (43:12):
Now. What I can say to everyone is well, it's
a real book.
Speaker 2 (43:16):
So it's heavy, and it's got a hard cover, and
the page is a beautiful to turn because I just,
you know, we get into that habit of them all
being a little bit on a kindle or light and
this is one that you really genuinely want to buy.
So that's it for another episode of Ask Me Anything.
If you've enjoyed this episode, please follow Ask Me Anything
on iHeartRadio or where you get your podcasts. Make sure
(43:37):
you check out some of our past fabulous guests while
you're there. I'll be back next Sunday with another interesting person.
Speaker 1 (43:44):
I'm Paul being Ask Me Anything. Goodbye,
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Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Bobby Bones Show
Listen to 'The Bobby Bones Show' by downloading the daily full replay.