November 6, 2024 • 46 mins
Murray calls New Zealand’s Mormon Abuse Helpline – and guess who picks up? He then heads to Northland to meet a Mormon couple who made a very different kind of call. They blew the whistle on a prolific sex abuser in their midst – only to find that others in their congregation would prefer to keep on protecting him.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Tin Aqua. This episode of Heaven's Helpline talks about sexual
assault of boys, but there's not too much graphic detail.
There's also one reference to suicide. Details of support services
are in the show notes.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
I'm recording.
Speaker 3 (00:15):
I think maybe you should do a little just improved.
Speaker 4 (00:18):
So now I'm calling.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Yeah, all right, So now I'm calling. So I understand
it's definitely a member of the church. He's a lawyer
in New Zealand, and I understand that he's worked for
the helpline. Yes, So before actually trying the LDS Churches
New Zealand Abuse Helpline, there are a few other calls
I needed to make first. My producer Adam has the
job of pressing record, so let's give him a call
(00:42):
in and see what he has to say.
Speaker 5 (00:45):
We didn't recognize the number.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
You don't, Please check it and try again.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
I found names of some of the people who may
be lawyers for New Zealand's Abuse Helpline, and I want
to give them the opportunity to talk about their work
for the church. But I'm not having a one hundred
percent hit rate.
Speaker 6 (01:00):
Thomas Culiar, I'm sorry, I'm not able to take your call.
I'm probably in court or a meeting.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Oh cain, no chat with Thomas Sutcliffe barrister today. I've
got another name here though, Okay, now calling Josh Suaw.
He's represented the church, so he may well have knowledge
of the helpline and have worked in it himself. Sure shrieking,
Hi there, mister Shaw. Yes, Hi, it's Sir Mary Jones here,
(01:27):
calling from the New Zealand Herald. Hello, there's a few
pleasant trees, and I explain I've been investigating the church,
and then we get to it. I was wondering if
you'd ever taken calls for the help line.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
I can't give you any comment without the church's agreement,
so I can't give you any on the record comments
but anything. Is it true the help line is answered
by a lawyers rather than social workers. I say, I
can't say anything on behalf of the church. I mean
we go round in circles for a bit. I've got
questions that need answers. Reporting out of the US suggests
that the help is all about protecting the church and
(02:01):
not about protecting victims. As a member of the church yourself,
do you feel that's a fair characterization? But Josh sure
isn't budging. In the end, we agree that I'll send
a follow up email. Thank you very much, thank you. Okay, Early,
he was same answer for every question, which was no answer.
Speaker 7 (02:21):
But it's just that it's quite a disciplined approach to
the sort of stuff. They don't want people just talking
off the cuff, which I guess the entire point of
the helpline is that they don't want anyone talking off
the cuffy about anything.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
But enough calls to lawyers, it's time to bite the bullet.
If I want to find out for sure where the
abuse helpline goes, who answers it, and what advice they
give to bishops, I'm going to have to call it myself.
I'm Murray Jones. You're listening to Heaven's Helpline and I
am literally ringing the helpline, Tom speaking Hi? There is
(02:59):
this what's the LDS Church abuse Helpline? Yes, we are
speaking to This is Murray Jones. I'm a journalist with
the New Zealand Herald.
Speaker 6 (03:07):
Yeah, I'm not talking to you, okay.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
So do all the course go through to you, Tom? Well,
that's pretty clear. So that was Tom Suckcliffe, the barrister
whose number I'd already called directly but only got voicemail,
and he's confirmed that he's answering the abuse helpline. But
also we've confirmed that the New Zealand help line goes
(03:31):
directly to a lawyer's cell phone, no switchboard, no please
state your Mormon emergency or anything, just Thomas Suckcliffe, barrister.
And you'll remember from the last episode that's crucially important
for the church's helpline system because it means as soon
as a bishop learns of abuse, before they've spoken to
(03:53):
anyone else, they are receiving instructions from a church lawyer,
and that conversation is entirely confidential. So having identified myself
up front as a journalist, I'll never know what Thomas
Sutcliffe might have said to me if I'd been a
bishop calling to report a case of abuse in my ward.
(04:15):
But nevill Rocco, the lawyer who has a high level
insider in the Australian Church, which is run out of
the Pacific Head Office in Auckland, he has a really
good idea of how it could have gone.
Speaker 8 (04:28):
From discussions with many leaders and ex leaders and ex
members of the church. The advice they are given generally,
he's handle problem. Ch'll it off, get the victim to figures,
and not involve the police at all.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
Helplines are fine in principle, says Neville.
Speaker 8 (04:48):
The problem, as I said, is there has never ever
been a hotline for victims.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
He's dead right. The Mormon Church has never offered a
helpline or hotline for abuse victims. Funny thing, though, there
is one case of abuse in the Mormon Church that
became quite notorious in New Zealand, where a different institution
set up a helpline for abuse victims. And it turns
(05:18):
out that when you do that, when you set up
a helpline that can be called by victims or witnesses,
things can go very differently.
Speaker 6 (05:28):
They said, I think I've got something to report.
Speaker 5 (05:30):
The time Mormons is she warned church leaders about Taylor.
Speaker 4 (05:33):
It still haunts us to this day.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Episode five, another helpline. On a miserable, rainy day, my
other producer Kirsten, and I drive an hour or so
west of Kelly Kelly, in the very north of New Zealand,
down windy roads that soon become gravel.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
You have arrived.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
We pull up a group of houses off the side
of the rural road where a couple of dogs, one
Harry McClary and one Hercules Morse come out to greet us.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
Sorry, can you put him your He is living his
best life. He'll chase the horses and the cows.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
And we've come to meet Doug and on a heater,
two members of the Olds Church of Kaitaire.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
Yeah, if you could introduce yourself and tell us how
you came.
Speaker 6 (06:34):
And I don't even know where we are holding her. Well,
my name is Doug Graves and I come from Toronto, Canada,
and I joined the church in ninety five ninety six,
and I had been married, but I was now divorced.
(06:55):
The church had a website called LDS Singles. I didn't
go through the catalog very far and came across Santahara
in New Zealand, and she was online here in the
evening and I was in the morning. So I contacted
her and in my opening email, I told her about
(07:16):
everything of the long email and I give her my
whole life story because my feeling was after hearing it,
if you're not gonna go tickle down those waters, I
want to know right away rather than drip feed the truth,
you know, because I've had a colorful bass. Let's just
put it that way.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
Over a couple of days with Doug, we hear all
about that colorful past, which could fill up a podcast
all on its own. His mum was an alcoholic who
ended up at McGill University as one of the patients
experimented on with lsd ECT and psychic driving funded by
the CIA. Doug and his brother ended up in an
(07:57):
abusive foster home in Quebec, where they were treated like slaves,
beaten with a nail studded strop, forced to dig for
potatoes and frozen earth, made to eat scraps after the
family had eaten. As Doug says, he's been married before,
but the most recent marriage the one that he no
(08:17):
doubt wrote to a a Hero about in nineteen ninety eight,
he'd been tricked into by a con artist who turned
out to be an actual serial killer. So, yeah, a
colorful past.
Speaker 4 (08:31):
I couldn't believe it. There was a shockingly terrible story
from Charles.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
This is unaheerer, Herbert Graves, who's sitting across the room
crocheting a dog jersey. She has said she would leave
the talking up to Doug, but she can't help herself.
Within minutes she's on mic.
Speaker 4 (08:47):
Oh, but there were some very traumatic things that had
happened in it.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Naherer appreciated Doug's honesty.
Speaker 4 (08:53):
Well, I wasn't his first wife, wasn't his second wife?
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Or did or I was his fifth?
Speaker 4 (09:03):
And I remember saying, and I'll be your last?
Speaker 6 (09:07):
Well, you know, I just can I say. I just
was the marry and kind.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
When they made contact on LDS singles, Doug and Anahro
were both well into their forties. Doug had a son
and Anahira had a daughter.
Speaker 4 (09:19):
I was forty six, never toought I'd get.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Married, but this long distance relationship developed super quickly.
Speaker 6 (09:27):
We wrote every day, and we still have every email
we wrote each other, right from the first one, my
opening email. And that turned into phone calls. They had
a service and Tyrontic called yap a Lot, and you
could pay fifty bucks a month and you could choose
one country and have unlimited phone calls to that country,
(09:48):
but only for an hour and length. We'd have virtual
dates where we would quee a movie in at both
ends of the earth and we'd watch it together, and
you know, we'd take a break here and there because
I had to because every hour it was just I
have to phone back.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
This continued for a few years, but a big world
event put their relationship in perspective.
Speaker 6 (10:12):
Out of nowhere, this other jet comes into the other
tower and I called her right away and I said,
turn your TV on. I said, there's something happening in
New York.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Oh my god.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
With air traffic grounded in the wake of nine to eleven,
Doug decided it was time to make the move.
Speaker 6 (10:29):
That kind of woke us up, and we thought, well,
if we're gonna develop this thing into a relationship, we
ought to do something.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Doug arrived in al Taylor on Anahiro's birthday in June
two thousand and two.
Speaker 6 (10:41):
Our plan was to take a drive around New Zealand
and we got together and I said, you know, I'm
not really interested in a great, big tour. Let's just
go home. And that's what we did. And every time
we stopped, we'd run into cousins aunties.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
Oh.
Speaker 6 (10:58):
I was freaked out by it. Holy cow, how many
relatives do you have because you know, I'm from North
America and you maybe have a couple of cousins, but
nothing like that.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Ana hero is descended from all the Ewi of the
Far North, including Nati Cahu and ter Alawa. She was
brought up on the dairy farm here in Pawanga Land
that belonged to her Farno, as part of the local
Hapu to uri Otai.
Speaker 4 (11:25):
The house I was raised in, if you go and
stand in there, you'll see it. It's a bit sad
to see it in disrepair now.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Anahira wasn't raised in the Mormon Church, but when she
discovered it in her early thirties, it made so much
sense to her.
Speaker 4 (11:43):
At Matakiatoo a Kyatato line up, join up the lines
of humanity, the deed to the dead, the living to
the living. In our church, we believe that the living
can also be united and sealed with the deed. It's
(12:04):
one of the reasons I joined this church because I
always used to be asking what about my ancestors.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
For Doug, going from metropolitan Toronto to the sleepy Far
North of New Zealand was a bit of a culture shock,
but he settled in quickly, getting to know the faro
An a Heerer's daughter Chevonne and grandson Sea especially well.
Speaker 6 (12:25):
Chauven moved in with the Sea and so they had
their part of the house and we had our part
of the house, and we had our meals together and
it was really terrific.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
And Doug also got to know Ana Heroer's congregation.
Speaker 6 (12:40):
I remember the church people saying, well, where he's staying,
and I said, well, I'm staying with an Air and
they said, oh, brother Graves, that's true. But we had
the willpower to see that through.
Speaker 4 (12:56):
I basically told the person who was leading the charge
and that no, brother, you've got it wrong. You and
I can't be together. But him and I find we're
single an adult. The check was married, so mind your
own business. We married just over a month later. Church
(13:19):
was the center of our life. I had been called
as seminary teacher.
Speaker 6 (13:23):
Yeah, and I was the cook.
Speaker 4 (13:25):
We were only a couple of hundred meters from the chapel.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
By that time. The couple, who initially lived in a
hippata after they married, were living in Kaitaya. Shivorn Anahiro's
daughter was also a superactive member of the congregation.
Speaker 6 (13:40):
There was no activity that happened at the church with
the youth that she hadn't you know, organized it and
was directing things. And Daniel as well.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
The two.
Speaker 6 (13:51):
The youths back then were very involved in sort of
having some kind of a program together.
Speaker 4 (13:57):
Yes, yes, you're right, and her and Daniel were sort
of the power house of the young single adult program.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
Daniel Taylor the reason we've come to speak to Unahearder
and Doug. Eventually, Daniel be found guilty in court on
nine charges of sexual assault against boys. But in the
early two thousands, he's an active and very well liked
member of the congregation and the wider community.
Speaker 4 (14:25):
He had terrific networks and great networking skills. He was very,
very personable.
Speaker 6 (14:32):
Yes, very popular, popular stakewide. You know, he was a
very happy guy to be around. You never saw him depressed.
He had a beautiful home. He had a real eye
for color and that sort of thing. When he threw
a party, it was a complete party.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
Daniel had joined the church as a teenager.
Speaker 4 (14:52):
I think he had a genuine spiritual experience. His parents
were separated. They pretty much dragged themselves up him in
his siblings.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Daniel stayed with Doug Nanaherra for a few weeks following
his mission in two thousand and five, so they got
to know Daniel well and came to love him. By
this time, Daniel is in his mid twenties, pretty old
to be just back from his mission and on the
hunt for a wife.
Speaker 4 (15:17):
He found it a bit difficult when he first came
back because most of the women his life had married,
including my daughter, you know, so he couldn't understand that
things had changed.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
But he had actually met someone while he was away.
Speaker 6 (15:30):
There were plans they were going to get married. She
was an American and he went over to see her
and there was just nothing, no connection, No, there was nothing.
And he just said, I can't marry you.
Speaker 4 (15:46):
And I said to him, how did she cope with that, Daniel?
And he said, in a surprised tone, she vomited. It
was the first time I ever seen him, Daniel, honest
with yourself. What makes your heart beat fast? And he goes, oh,
I'm not gay. If it's what you mean, I said,
(16:06):
I think if you are, Daniel, you know you can't
go through people's lives like this.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
A couple of years later, Daniels engaged to a divorced
mother of two from around Hawk's Bay. Will call her Christy.
She was beautiful, oh gorgeous.
Speaker 4 (16:22):
Yeah, So they got married.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
A lovely girl.
Speaker 4 (16:26):
He organized the entire wedding.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Doug and an Ahira couldn't actually make it to the ceremony.
Speaker 4 (16:31):
I just had a funny feeling that it wasn't that
his heart just wasn't in it. I didn't know all
the night of the wedding when they turned up at
our house and full wedding regalia, and she was looking like,
what the heck are we doing here? She said to him,
it's your wedding night. Your wife doesn't want to be here.
(16:53):
It wasn't long before things went pear shaped. He rang
me and asked me to come and pick him up,
and when I got there, he looked dreadful.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
The newlyweds had gone on a romantic weekend away, but
it had turned as an A hero says pear shaped.
Long story, but it ends with Daniel yanking the handbrake
of the moving car Christy was driving, and he jumped
out and ran.
Speaker 4 (17:18):
He said, she's insane, And he said basically, he confided
that their sex life wasn't great, that she wanted more
than he was willing to give.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
Yeah, this marriage didn't last.
Speaker 4 (17:34):
She came home and all her stuff was on the road.
Speaker 6 (17:39):
You talk about being a ladder day saint, that's hardly
the right way to do things. But never mind that,
just as a human being, you know, do that kind
of a mother with two kids in a strange down
it was great.
Speaker 4 (17:51):
It was some of our church sisters who found her
and helped her to move into a place. She stayed
for the next two years until the divorce.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
At the time, Doug was Sunday School president, Elder's Korum
president and Award missionary, and and a Hero was Relief
Society president. And Daniel it.
Speaker 4 (18:11):
Wasn't too long after the separation became formal where they
called him into the young Men's presidency.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
At the same time, Daniel was the advertising manager at
the local radio station, and Anaherer, by this time was
CEO of Nati Kahu. The EWE had a show each
week on the radio station. One of Unaher's colleagues would
go in and pre record. Sometimes like on this night.
Speaker 6 (18:40):
It was it Saturday, late at night too. It was
about ten oh.
Speaker 4 (18:43):
No, it wasn't that late. No, No, it was a
Saturday that the station was on automatic. It was a shutdown.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
I should just say here, Doug and and a Heer
have a folder full of documentation, a timeline of all
this backed up by emails, texts, and diaries. Anyway, this
radio host.
Speaker 6 (19:03):
Came into the studio and he turned on the lights
and there's a couch and on the couch is Daniel
and a young man. They sort of jumped up of flustered.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
The host was disturbed by what he'd seen, so he
told anaher about it.
Speaker 4 (19:28):
What happened was that he came to work on Monday
and told me about it. Oh, okay, because he knew
I was a member of the church, and he knew
Daniel was a member of the church. What he said
was that he was on the couch with a young
fellow who was definitely not sixteen, and they were sprang
apart and adjusting their clothes. He said, oh, really, Daniel, really.
Speaker 6 (19:52):
He said.
Speaker 4 (19:52):
Then I just went into the studio to do my recording.
But he thought about it, and he thought if he
had sons, and he thought, if that was my son,
I would want to know.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
At this stage, annahro hands it over to Doug as
her priesthood leader. He's the best place to deal with it.
Speaker 6 (20:16):
And I recognized right away that this is not usual,
and I phoned the bishop.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
Doug tells the Bishop what he's heard and hands over
the contact details of the witness.
Speaker 6 (20:28):
But other than that, I kept it completely to myself
because knowing that Bishop I said, he's going to get
right onto this thing. I'd done my duty as far
as that was concerned.
Speaker 4 (20:39):
Wouldn't have been even a fortnight after Doug had taken
the issue to him and he said to me, look,
I've interviewed your colleague and I find him to be credible. Unfortunately,
we need to know who the young man is. Do
you think you could ask him to go and find
(20:59):
out who they are manners?
Speaker 2 (21:01):
And I said no, Daniel is the radio host's boss essentially,
so an a hero doesn't feel comfortable asking this of him.
Speaker 4 (21:09):
That's an alarm that should have set the red legs
waving Church policy should have been put in place right then,
but it wasn't.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
That happened in mid twenty ten. In March twenty eleven,
there was another incident.
Speaker 4 (21:25):
My receptionist came up and said, Boss, you need to
come down to the front. There's a young kid out there.
He's crying his eyes out once to us to ring
his mum. I got down to the reception area and
this kid was just sobbing his eyes there. She looked
like he was around about eight nine, maybe a bit older,
but that's what he looked like. And I said where
(21:48):
are you? Where are you from?
Speaker 2 (21:49):
And the boy said he was from Auckland, about five
hours drive away. He told Anaherer, I.
Speaker 4 (21:56):
Want to ring my mum. He had the number, so
on a hero called his mom. She was very, very brisk.
I can't deal with this. He's got to go back
to his home where he's being fostered.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
This boy was a ward of the state.
Speaker 4 (22:12):
You could see he understood his mother wasn't going to
come and rescue him. But I said to him, Darling,
your mom can't come and get you. Where are you staying?
He said just around the road. And I said you,
what's the name of the people you're living with? And
he said, he's a strange man in his name's Daniel.
And I thought no, so put him in my car
(22:34):
and drove him around to Daniels. Took him to the
door and Daniel opened the door and said, have you
stopped being stupid? And I am haunted to this day
that I turned that child back over to Daniel.
Speaker 6 (22:54):
That's the first we knew that Daniel was a se caregiver.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Seth's was the government's child, Youth and Family services agency
known as Uranga Tamariki. Now, to become a siff's caregiver,
Daniel would have had to have gone through a vetting process,
police checks referees, and later siffs would confirm that someone
from the church was one of those referees. Around that
(23:23):
same time, the bishop that Doug had placed such high
hopes in left nothing to do with this story, just
personal circumstances that meant he had to travel a lot,
so his deputies filled in.
Speaker 6 (23:36):
So the counselor stepped up and did the work there.
And one of the counselors also happened to be a
policeman working in Kai Taia. And I said, what's happening
with Daniel anyway? And he said, well, I won't let
my kids go off there, That's what he said to me.
I was cobs back, to be honest with you, I thought, no,
(23:58):
I meant like going on there. I mean there has
to be some church discipline in there somewhere.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
Well, surely somewhere up the ranks, someone was doing something
to safeguard the children of the congregation. Doug went higher
up the chain and asked the state president what was
being done.
Speaker 6 (24:16):
And he kind of went yeah, but didn't elaborate. But
at least I was assured that he was aware of this.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
June of twenty eleven and heros at work and there's
a bunch of her.
Speaker 4 (24:31):
Colleagues gossiping around the chanting table.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
And Anahira says to the radio host guy who'd seen
Daniel on the couch with the boy.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
Hey, I see Daniel's side windows smashed, and he goes, oh, yeah,
he made a pass it and he named this guy
who's giving him a lift to Auckland and he reached
over to kiss his nick and he had reacted violently.
He jumped out and smashed the window.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
To be clear, this was a young man and a hearer,
and Doug can't agree on how old, but he was
at least nineteen, so.
Speaker 4 (25:03):
That and I did talk to Bishop about that, and
he just said, look, Daniel Hayes admitted that he's struggling
with the same six attraction. I don't thank god, thank god,
at least he's.
Speaker 6 (25:13):
At least it's an adult.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
Thinking about all these together, there's nothing definitively in these
incidents that Doug and Anahi have described that scream child abuse.
There's the guy on the couch. The witness says he's
definitely not sixteen, but no one's tracked him down, so
who knows. He might have just looked much younger than
he was. The siff's boy. He was never asked if
(25:38):
Daniel had molested him. He just offers that Daniel is
a strange man, and the guy Daniel had made an
unwelcome pass at definitely over nineteen. But Doug was pretty
certain there was more to it. Remember, Doug is someone
who did his time in an abusive foster care situation,
(25:59):
and while he was sexually abused, he reckons he's got
a good radar for when things might be a bit off.
Speaker 6 (26:06):
There's a part of me that still identifies with kids
who have no voice.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
So Doug became a thorn in his church leader's sides,
specifically the new bishop.
Speaker 6 (26:18):
I wasn't gonna let that dog hole, you know, I
just had to find out what, like, are you aware
of this stuff?
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Yeah? The bishop was aware. Daniel was getting some counseling,
although the counseling was focused on what the church calls
same sex attraction. But Doug at least felt Daniel's behavior
was being acknowledged and dealt with by the Church. After
these incidents, there would be a close eye on Daniel.
(26:46):
Job done in a sense, but then.
Speaker 6 (26:50):
Couldn't have been more than a Sunday later, the Bishop
was up on the podium and Anna Heer and I
were sitting in the chapel and he he looks at
the Word and he says, Daniel Taylor, will you please stand?
And then he turns and he looks me right in
(27:11):
the eye and he goes, Daniel Taylor, you've been called
as the ward seminary teacher.
Speaker 4 (27:18):
When we are called, we are asked to stand. The
ward is then told this person has been found worthy
to be called as all those who can sustain him
showed by uplifted hand. Those who are against showed by
the same means.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
And did anyone raise their hands against No.
Speaker 6 (27:38):
I was so shocked, to be honest with you, I
turned to my wife and I'm looking at the bishop
and I am really just starting to boil inside. You know,
word seminary teacher. That means he's now got access to
all of the youth. It just don't dawned on me
(27:59):
like a like a ledge Hamer. I didn't have the
presence of mine to raise my hand at that time.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
Would it be unusual to raise your hand against Yeah?
Speaker 6 (28:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (28:13):
Over the next week, I approached every family with youth
and I told them about our concerns, and that's when
several of them poor their kids out of seminary.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
But this exodus was short lived. Dargan and a Hero
say they know of at least one family that church
leaders pressured into returning.
Speaker 4 (28:32):
If you don't, he will not get his arm certificate.
Eighty percent attendance required to part to receive a certificate,
and they inferred that he would not be able to
save a mission.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Seminary school, which is basically Bible study for fourteen to
eighteen year olds, is held at church every weekday morning
before school. And a Hero had been the seminary teacher
for a time. She knew the job and how it
should be done. It's there in the many church manuals.
Speaker 6 (29:00):
Daniel is different and the teaching was being done at
his house and that same group was also encouraged to,
you know, have sleepovers.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
Again, there's policy in place for this.
Speaker 6 (29:14):
First of all, you have to let the bishop know
if you're going to have a sleepover, and then there
are strict rules. Boys in one room, girls in another room.
There has to be two adults, right, and of course
nobody sleeping with the children. These sleepovers became a regular occurrence.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
How did Daniel? How was he allowed to break the rules?
Speaker 6 (29:35):
Nobody was kept checking the rules.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Doug and Naha kept their ears wide open when they
were around their grandson and his friends, just in case.
Speaker 4 (29:45):
They're joking about it, laughing about it. You know, Daniel
Dutchess fills people up.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
They must be thinking themselves.
Speaker 4 (29:53):
The adults know about the stuff, and nothing's happening, so
it must be just a joke.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
At this stage, Doug has become such a squeaky wheel
about the Daniel issue that from his perspective, he's being
ostracized from the congregation by church leaders.
Speaker 6 (30:07):
I was made to feel that get over it. You know,
he's getting the counseling he needs and it's all being
taken care of. Just get over it.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
Even an a hero at this stage thinks it's a
waste of energy.
Speaker 6 (30:23):
She very much wanted me to just let it go.
But if I have a feeling in my heart that
something isn't right, you know, I want some resolution there.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
It's just becoming too close to home. Literally, after Doug
learns that his young neighbor has been invited to Daniels
for sleepovers, Doug confronts Daniel.
Speaker 6 (30:46):
Daniel I said, look, under no conditionery yet'd go anywhere
near see you. I says, we're never going to let
him come over to your house, and you know, why
do you understand me? And he sat there and he
didn't say a worried nothing. He just sat there with
a stone face, and then he got up and left.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
Sure the church leadership didn't take any steps to limit
Daniel's access to children. They actually gave him more responsibility.
He was made a High Counselor, which meant that he
was required to travel and engage with church youth all
over Northland. It's mid twenty twelve and it's been a
(31:28):
full two years since the incident at the radio station,
and over one year since the day Anaher returned a
young boy in Siff's care to Daniel's store, and all
this time Doug and an Ahira have been trying to
alert people to their concerns. The conversations with one Kaitaia
bishop and then another the conversations with other parents about
being wary at the seminary class. Nothing seems to have worked,
(31:53):
but then an unusual opportunity presents itself. It starts with
some shocking news in August twenty twelve that brings Katya
to the attention of national media.
Speaker 5 (32:06):
The lawyer for the Kaitia Deputy Principle is the police
warned the school three years ago about the man having
sleepovers with students at his house.
Speaker 2 (32:15):
These were different sleepovers. Teacher James Parker was arrested and
later admitted seventy four charges of sexual abuse against twenty
different boys.
Speaker 6 (32:27):
I was following the James Parker case and the paper
and they had a hotline at the very end.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
As part of the investigation. An eight hundred hotline was
set up. The police were asking for any tips from
anyone who might know anything more about Parker's offending. And
when Doug saw the hotline in that article.
Speaker 6 (32:47):
I just made my mind up, sitting there in our
backyard and I said, I've got to do this, and
so I went right into my office and I called
the heartline and I said, I think I've got something
to report.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
Finally, Doug takes his concerns outside of the church, and
when Doug called this hotline set up by police, things
changed quickly. James Parker had been a deputy principal at
a local school and a prolific pedophile, and now police
(33:25):
are building a case against him. There's an eight hundred
hot line for people to call if they have any
more information. So this was the hot line that Doug called,
not to give a report about Parker, but to share
his suspicions about the sleepovers happening just down the road,
the ones at Daniel Taylor's house.
Speaker 6 (33:46):
And I said, I think I've got something to report,
but it's not James Parker, and I could feel just
the relief coming off my shoulders.
Speaker 4 (33:57):
You range me and tell me you've done it.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
It's just over a month before Daniel is arrested. During
that time, SIFs revoke Daniel's status as a caregiver. Police
will later tell the New Zealand Herald that Daniel was
making plans to flee to Australia and at the same
time he's doing damage control at church.
Speaker 4 (34:18):
Already he was manipulating the narrative with members of our
church who continued to support them, possibly support them to
this day.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
Yeah, this is something I've found quite fascinating about the
Daniel Taylor case. Even once he'd been arrested, even as
all the accounts of what he'd done to numerous children
started to come out, he's still got a lot of
support from some people in the church. And maybe that
makes some sense.
Speaker 4 (34:47):
So this is a man who has done a lot
of good things with them, some fun things, and has
been an exemplier and a modeltist some of them. You know,
there is an incredible amount of confusion. How do you
reconcile these two people?
Speaker 2 (35:04):
But also there's something uncomfortably familiar about this, because it's
something I've heard in my interviews with Caroline and with Jade,
with Neville and with John. There seems to be a
very strong impulse for members of the Mormon community to
side with the abuser. And this isn't just about bishops
and state presidents. Remember how Jade said that when her
(35:28):
abusive husband returned to his ward in another city, it
was almost like the community there went out of its
way to build up his manner, to forgive and forget,
almost to celebrate the sinner for returning to the right path.
And meanwhile, the victim seems to be ignored or overlooked
or even blamed.
Speaker 9 (35:49):
A Kai Tai, a businessman and foster appearance charged with
abusing young boys, will remain in jail over Christmas. Daniel Taylor,
who was an elder in the Mormon Church and a child,
youth and family caregivers, facing twenty two charges of sexual
assault on boys. He applied for electronic bail, but Judge
John McDonald refused it he sees mister Taylor is facing
(36:12):
serious charges involving children, including one who had been in
his custiners.
Speaker 2 (36:16):
As the months passed and Daniel remained in custody, there
was a real range of reactions in Kaitaya. Some women
in the ward arranged a series of WHOI open meetings
and put some hard questions to church leaders.
Speaker 4 (36:29):
How could you put your relationship with Daniel in your
subject of judgment over and above the safety of our children?
Speaker 2 (36:39):
And Doug heard from people who had stories things like
seeing Daniel in a car with a boy that now
made more sense to them. But at the same time,
Doug grew increasingly frustrated with what he saw as a
kind of save Daniel Taylor movement in the congregation.
Speaker 6 (36:57):
There were definitely those people who were very vocal and
saying that he was not guilty, that somehow the victims
themselves had been cajoled or had been guided, you know,
towards making these accusations against Daniel.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
Some of these people were lobbying to have Daniel released
before his trial.
Speaker 6 (37:17):
Petitioning the court to have Daniel released to their homes
on bail. With multiple youth in our ward stumbling around broken,
you know, and nobody was talking to them.
Speaker 4 (37:37):
One of the things that struck me was the silence
from the pulpit. The message should have clearly been given,
our youth are precious and thank you to those of
you who came forward. Instead, we had an incident.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
Daniel had been in jail awaiting trial for about six
months at this stage.
Speaker 4 (37:59):
First Sunday of the month is always fast and testimony,
and this particular sister who had staunchly defended Daniel, got
up to bear her testimony and said very tearfully that
she visited our brother in jail and looked down at
these three boys and said, and he forgives you. I
(38:23):
did stand up Da Tarma No.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
Stopped some context here. Those three boys were brothers and
was some of Taylor's victims. Eventually, Taylor would plead guilty
to nine charges of sexual offending against boys, including one
who'd been in his care. He was sentenced to five
years and seven months in prison.
Speaker 4 (38:48):
That woman who stood and said, you know he forgives you.
She was convinced that he only confessed just to get
it over and done with and will relieve you boys
of the burden of having to testify. After Daniel was arrested,
another member came forward to me and disclosed that in
two thousand and seven, after Daniel had got back from
(39:10):
his mission, he had molested her son and she had
taken it to the bishopric at that time, and they
had basically fobbed her off. She said it wasn't until
charges against Daniel had made public that they had felt
able to hear and her husband had felt able to
go to the police.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
So what impact did Taylor's offending have. One boy said
he had felt confused and disgusted by Taylor's assaults and
became withdrawn from friends in school. Another said he was
abused by Taylor for years and he often felt a
sense of guilt. One teenager wrote, even though I threatened
(39:54):
him with violence. He still kept trying to touch me.
I hate him for what he did to me. Another
boy said he was embarrassed and didn't want to tell
anyone because he was afraid they would think he was gay.
Yet another victim said he had considered hanging himself to
escape Taylor, who had been his caregiver. The sentencing judge
(40:16):
said Daniel showed a lack of insight into his offending
and a lack of empathy for his victims. They said
they were not convinced of Taylor's remorse, and noted that
his apology letters to his victims were all identical a
single sentence with the sign off regards The LDS Church
(40:37):
issued a statement at the time saying it has zero
tolerance for abuse of any kind. Doug and Nanahira are
a pretty extraordinary couple of people. It's remarkable that Doug
blew the whistle on Taylor, but it's also remarkable that
(40:59):
afterwards Hearer chose to speak up and directly criticize her
church's leadership in the media whilst still remaining a member.
It's a testament really to her manna both within and
beyond the church.
Speaker 5 (41:13):
Oka Mormon and Nasi Carho chief executive Anahiro Herbert Grave
says she warned church leaders about Taylor that they responded
by giving him even more responsibility for teenagers.
Speaker 2 (41:24):
When she spoke to Ironzed in late twenty thirteen after
Daniel Taylor's conviction, there was disquiet from leaders in her ward,
but Anaherer told them she wasn't speaking on behalf of
the church.
Speaker 4 (41:34):
I said, now make sure I'm speaking clearly as an individual.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
Ana Heer wasn't going to be silenced anymore.
Speaker 4 (41:42):
When I look at all of the leaders and the
adults who, including myself, who failed, we all had experiences
in our lives which caused us to reprecate a pettern
of behavior that we'd have seen dane in our own lives.
I know all of these people, while they failed, they
(42:02):
are not evil. There's an institutional deficit that allows these
things to continue to happen if we don't learn from it.
There now there's more and more generations of victims lining up.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
Just because on a hero is a critic though, doesn't
mean she wants to leave her church.
Speaker 4 (42:25):
You know, as we talk, I think to myself, why
am I still in this church? And for me, I
flip it like this. I've run into this kind of
thing all throughout my life. I ain't leaving. I haven't
done a jolly thing wrong. The only way I leave
is churches if I'm kicked out. I think I'm an
advocate by nature. There's very little that I'm afraid of.
(42:48):
Probably my biggest fear is to stand before my two
winner and for them to say you had the ability,
you were given that gift, and you didn't use it.
Speaker 2 (43:02):
For Doug, though, the whole Daniel Taylor thing was just
one test of faith too far. He tried to tell
his church superiors that there was a problem, and they
simply wouldn't deal with it. So eventually he picked up
the phone and called the right kind of helpline. He
did what someone should have done long before.
Speaker 6 (43:24):
If I hadn't gone to the police, Daniel might still
be an active member of the church.
Speaker 2 (43:32):
Doug doesn't go to church anymore. His trust has been broken.
Speaker 6 (43:37):
We all I did was what I was supposed to do.
I told my bishop.
Speaker 2 (43:41):
I told my bishop, it's simply beyond doubt. The LDS
Church has an abuse problem, the LDS Church has an
abuse reporting problem, and frankly, there don't seem to be
enough dougs out there who were willing to call it
out and ring the other helpline, the one that's answered
(44:02):
by a police officer, not a church lawyer. In the
next and final episode, will meet some of the people
who reckon there's a way out of this. Is it reformable?
Speaker 6 (44:15):
Yes, but somebody is gonna have to put the hit
above the paracos.
Speaker 2 (44:19):
To people inside and outside the church who started to
fight back.
Speaker 5 (44:23):
We have a culture that really does allow abuse to flourish.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
And we'll ask this. As the church keeps denying it
has a problem. Is it time to stop waiting for
it to do the right thing?
Speaker 5 (44:36):
Who does my silence benefit?
Speaker 2 (44:44):
We sought comment from the church in response to the
allegations in this episode. The church did not address the
allegations directly, but in a statement said, as followers of
Jesus Christ, members of the Church Jesus Christ of Latter
day Saints a poor abuse of any As a church,
we invest heavily on prevention and response and will continue
(45:05):
to do so. In the church. Any who serve as
youth leaders with children need to complete child protection training
to help them safeguard young people. This training includes instruction
for those working with children to immediately report abuse to
legal authorities and do all they can to assist victims
of abuse. Heaven's Helpline was funded by New Zealand on
(45:32):
Air and the New Zealand Herald for enzed me and iHeartRadio.
It was researched, written and presented by me Murray Jones.
My producers were Adam Dudding, who co wrote the series,
and Kirsten Johnston from Pop Sop Media, who edited and
sound designed it. Phil Brownlee is our sound engineer. Music
(45:52):
was by Thomas Arbur and Anita Clark. Archival audio came
from TVNZED and RNZ Sales is executive producer here at
New Zealand Herald. If you have a story you'd like
to share with me about the LDS Church, or just
want to get in touch, email me securely at Murray
Reports at Proton dot m E or dm me on
(46:17):
X at Murray Reports. And for more on this podcast,
head to nzedherld dot co dot nz slash Heaven's Helpline.
It's time intensive doing investigations like this, so if you
value this kind of journalism, please support it by going
to your podcast platform and rating and reviewing the series
Tin Aqua. This episode of Heaven's Helpline talks about sexual
assault of boys, but there's not too much graphic detail.
There's also one reference to suicide. Details of support services
are in the show notes.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
I'm recording.
Speaker 3 (00:15):
I think maybe you should do a little just improved.
Speaker 4 (00:18):
So now I'm calling.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Yeah, all right, So now I'm calling. So I understand
it's definitely a member of the church. He's a lawyer
in New Zealand, and I understand that he's worked for
the helpline. Yes, So before actually trying the LDS Churches
New Zealand Abuse Helpline, there are a few other calls
I needed to make first. My producer Adam has the
job of pressing record, so let's give him a call
(00:42):
in and see what he has to say.
Speaker 5 (00:45):
We didn't recognize the number.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
You don't, Please check it and try again.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
I found names of some of the people who may
be lawyers for New Zealand's Abuse Helpline, and I want
to give them the opportunity to talk about their work
for the church. But I'm not having a one hundred
percent hit rate.
Speaker 6 (01:00):
Thomas Culiar, I'm sorry, I'm not able to take your call.
I'm probably in court or a meeting.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Oh cain, no chat with Thomas Sutcliffe barrister today. I've
got another name here though, Okay, now calling Josh Suaw.
He's represented the church, so he may well have knowledge
of the helpline and have worked in it himself. Sure shrieking,
Hi there, mister Shaw. Yes, Hi, it's Sir Mary Jones here,
(01:27):
calling from the New Zealand Herald. Hello, there's a few
pleasant trees, and I explain I've been investigating the church,
and then we get to it. I was wondering if
you'd ever taken calls for the help line.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
I can't give you any comment without the church's agreement,
so I can't give you any on the record comments
but anything. Is it true the help line is answered
by a lawyers rather than social workers. I say, I
can't say anything on behalf of the church. I mean
we go round in circles for a bit. I've got
questions that need answers. Reporting out of the US suggests
that the help is all about protecting the church and
(02:01):
not about protecting victims. As a member of the church yourself,
do you feel that's a fair characterization? But Josh sure
isn't budging. In the end, we agree that I'll send
a follow up email. Thank you very much, thank you. Okay, Early,
he was same answer for every question, which was no answer.
Speaker 7 (02:21):
But it's just that it's quite a disciplined approach to
the sort of stuff. They don't want people just talking
off the cuff, which I guess the entire point of
the helpline is that they don't want anyone talking off
the cuffy about anything.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
But enough calls to lawyers, it's time to bite the bullet.
If I want to find out for sure where the
abuse helpline goes, who answers it, and what advice they
give to bishops, I'm going to have to call it myself.
I'm Murray Jones. You're listening to Heaven's Helpline and I
am literally ringing the helpline, Tom speaking Hi? There is
(02:59):
this what's the LDS Church abuse Helpline? Yes, we are
speaking to This is Murray Jones. I'm a journalist with
the New Zealand Herald.
Speaker 6 (03:07):
Yeah, I'm not talking to you, okay.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
So do all the course go through to you, Tom? Well,
that's pretty clear. So that was Tom Suckcliffe, the barrister
whose number I'd already called directly but only got voicemail,
and he's confirmed that he's answering the abuse helpline. But
also we've confirmed that the New Zealand help line goes
(03:31):
directly to a lawyer's cell phone, no switchboard, no please
state your Mormon emergency or anything, just Thomas Suckcliffe, barrister.
And you'll remember from the last episode that's crucially important
for the church's helpline system because it means as soon
as a bishop learns of abuse, before they've spoken to
(03:53):
anyone else, they are receiving instructions from a church lawyer,
and that conversation is entirely confidential. So having identified myself
up front as a journalist, I'll never know what Thomas
Sutcliffe might have said to me if I'd been a
bishop calling to report a case of abuse in my ward.
(04:15):
But nevill Rocco, the lawyer who has a high level
insider in the Australian Church, which is run out of
the Pacific Head Office in Auckland, he has a really
good idea of how it could have gone.
Speaker 8 (04:28):
From discussions with many leaders and ex leaders and ex
members of the church. The advice they are given generally,
he's handle problem. Ch'll it off, get the victim to figures,
and not involve the police at all.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
Helplines are fine in principle, says Neville.
Speaker 8 (04:48):
The problem, as I said, is there has never ever
been a hotline for victims.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
He's dead right. The Mormon Church has never offered a
helpline or hotline for abuse victims. Funny thing, though, there
is one case of abuse in the Mormon Church that
became quite notorious in New Zealand, where a different institution
set up a helpline for abuse victims. And it turns
(05:18):
out that when you do that, when you set up
a helpline that can be called by victims or witnesses,
things can go very differently.
Speaker 6 (05:28):
They said, I think I've got something to report.
Speaker 5 (05:30):
The time Mormons is she warned church leaders about Taylor.
Speaker 4 (05:33):
It still haunts us to this day.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Episode five, another helpline. On a miserable, rainy day, my
other producer Kirsten, and I drive an hour or so
west of Kelly Kelly, in the very north of New Zealand,
down windy roads that soon become gravel.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
You have arrived.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
We pull up a group of houses off the side
of the rural road where a couple of dogs, one
Harry McClary and one Hercules Morse come out to greet us.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
Sorry, can you put him your He is living his
best life. He'll chase the horses and the cows.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
And we've come to meet Doug and on a heater,
two members of the Olds Church of Kaitaire.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
Yeah, if you could introduce yourself and tell us how
you came.
Speaker 6 (06:34):
And I don't even know where we are holding her. Well,
my name is Doug Graves and I come from Toronto, Canada,
and I joined the church in ninety five ninety six,
and I had been married, but I was now divorced.
(06:55):
The church had a website called LDS Singles. I didn't
go through the catalog very far and came across Santahara
in New Zealand, and she was online here in the
evening and I was in the morning. So I contacted
her and in my opening email, I told her about
(07:16):
everything of the long email and I give her my
whole life story because my feeling was after hearing it,
if you're not gonna go tickle down those waters, I
want to know right away rather than drip feed the truth,
you know, because I've had a colorful bass. Let's just
put it that way.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
Over a couple of days with Doug, we hear all
about that colorful past, which could fill up a podcast
all on its own. His mum was an alcoholic who
ended up at McGill University as one of the patients
experimented on with lsd ECT and psychic driving funded by
the CIA. Doug and his brother ended up in an
(07:57):
abusive foster home in Quebec, where they were treated like slaves,
beaten with a nail studded strop, forced to dig for
potatoes and frozen earth, made to eat scraps after the
family had eaten. As Doug says, he's been married before,
but the most recent marriage the one that he no
(08:17):
doubt wrote to a a Hero about in nineteen ninety eight,
he'd been tricked into by a con artist who turned
out to be an actual serial killer. So, yeah, a
colorful past.
Speaker 4 (08:31):
I couldn't believe it. There was a shockingly terrible story
from Charles.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
This is unaheerer, Herbert Graves, who's sitting across the room
crocheting a dog jersey. She has said she would leave
the talking up to Doug, but she can't help herself.
Within minutes she's on mic.
Speaker 4 (08:47):
Oh, but there were some very traumatic things that had
happened in it.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Naherer appreciated Doug's honesty.
Speaker 4 (08:53):
Well, I wasn't his first wife, wasn't his second wife?
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Or did or I was his fifth?
Speaker 4 (09:03):
And I remember saying, and I'll be your last?
Speaker 6 (09:07):
Well, you know, I just can I say. I just
was the marry and kind.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
When they made contact on LDS singles, Doug and Anahro
were both well into their forties. Doug had a son
and Anahira had a daughter.
Speaker 4 (09:19):
I was forty six, never toought I'd get.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Married, but this long distance relationship developed super quickly.
Speaker 6 (09:27):
We wrote every day, and we still have every email
we wrote each other, right from the first one, my
opening email. And that turned into phone calls. They had
a service and Tyrontic called yap a Lot, and you
could pay fifty bucks a month and you could choose
one country and have unlimited phone calls to that country,
(09:48):
but only for an hour and length. We'd have virtual
dates where we would quee a movie in at both
ends of the earth and we'd watch it together, and
you know, we'd take a break here and there because
I had to because every hour it was just I
have to phone back.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
This continued for a few years, but a big world
event put their relationship in perspective.
Speaker 6 (10:12):
Out of nowhere, this other jet comes into the other
tower and I called her right away and I said,
turn your TV on. I said, there's something happening in
New York.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Oh my god.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
With air traffic grounded in the wake of nine to eleven,
Doug decided it was time to make the move.
Speaker 6 (10:29):
That kind of woke us up, and we thought, well,
if we're gonna develop this thing into a relationship, we
ought to do something.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Doug arrived in al Taylor on Anahiro's birthday in June
two thousand and two.
Speaker 6 (10:41):
Our plan was to take a drive around New Zealand
and we got together and I said, you know, I'm
not really interested in a great, big tour. Let's just
go home. And that's what we did. And every time
we stopped, we'd run into cousins aunties.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
Oh.
Speaker 6 (10:58):
I was freaked out by it. Holy cow, how many
relatives do you have because you know, I'm from North
America and you maybe have a couple of cousins, but
nothing like that.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Ana hero is descended from all the Ewi of the
Far North, including Nati Cahu and ter Alawa. She was
brought up on the dairy farm here in Pawanga Land
that belonged to her Farno, as part of the local
Hapu to uri Otai.
Speaker 4 (11:25):
The house I was raised in, if you go and
stand in there, you'll see it. It's a bit sad
to see it in disrepair now.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Anahira wasn't raised in the Mormon Church, but when she
discovered it in her early thirties, it made so much
sense to her.
Speaker 4 (11:43):
At Matakiatoo a Kyatato line up, join up the lines
of humanity, the deed to the dead, the living to
the living. In our church, we believe that the living
can also be united and sealed with the deed. It's
(12:04):
one of the reasons I joined this church because I
always used to be asking what about my ancestors.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
For Doug, going from metropolitan Toronto to the sleepy Far
North of New Zealand was a bit of a culture shock,
but he settled in quickly, getting to know the faro
An a Heerer's daughter Chevonne and grandson Sea especially well.
Speaker 6 (12:25):
Chauven moved in with the Sea and so they had
their part of the house and we had our part
of the house, and we had our meals together and
it was really terrific.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
And Doug also got to know Ana Heroer's congregation.
Speaker 6 (12:40):
I remember the church people saying, well, where he's staying,
and I said, well, I'm staying with an Air and
they said, oh, brother Graves, that's true. But we had
the willpower to see that through.
Speaker 4 (12:56):
I basically told the person who was leading the charge
and that no, brother, you've got it wrong. You and
I can't be together. But him and I find we're
single an adult. The check was married, so mind your
own business. We married just over a month later. Church
(13:19):
was the center of our life. I had been called
as seminary teacher.
Speaker 6 (13:23):
Yeah, and I was the cook.
Speaker 4 (13:25):
We were only a couple of hundred meters from the chapel.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
By that time. The couple, who initially lived in a
hippata after they married, were living in Kaitaya. Shivorn Anahiro's
daughter was also a superactive member of the congregation.
Speaker 6 (13:40):
There was no activity that happened at the church with
the youth that she hadn't you know, organized it and
was directing things. And Daniel as well.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
The two.
Speaker 6 (13:51):
The youths back then were very involved in sort of
having some kind of a program together.
Speaker 4 (13:57):
Yes, yes, you're right, and her and Daniel were sort
of the power house of the young single adult program.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
Daniel Taylor the reason we've come to speak to Unahearder
and Doug. Eventually, Daniel be found guilty in court on
nine charges of sexual assault against boys. But in the
early two thousands, he's an active and very well liked
member of the congregation and the wider community.
Speaker 4 (14:25):
He had terrific networks and great networking skills. He was very,
very personable.
Speaker 6 (14:32):
Yes, very popular, popular stakewide. You know, he was a
very happy guy to be around. You never saw him depressed.
He had a beautiful home. He had a real eye
for color and that sort of thing. When he threw
a party, it was a complete party.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
Daniel had joined the church as a teenager.
Speaker 4 (14:52):
I think he had a genuine spiritual experience. His parents
were separated. They pretty much dragged themselves up him in
his siblings.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Daniel stayed with Doug Nanaherra for a few weeks following
his mission in two thousand and five, so they got
to know Daniel well and came to love him. By
this time, Daniel is in his mid twenties, pretty old
to be just back from his mission and on the
hunt for a wife.
Speaker 4 (15:17):
He found it a bit difficult when he first came
back because most of the women his life had married,
including my daughter, you know, so he couldn't understand that
things had changed.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
But he had actually met someone while he was away.
Speaker 6 (15:30):
There were plans they were going to get married. She
was an American and he went over to see her
and there was just nothing, no connection, No, there was nothing.
And he just said, I can't marry you.
Speaker 4 (15:46):
And I said to him, how did she cope with that, Daniel?
And he said, in a surprised tone, she vomited. It
was the first time I ever seen him, Daniel, honest
with yourself. What makes your heart beat fast? And he goes, oh,
I'm not gay. If it's what you mean, I said,
(16:06):
I think if you are, Daniel, you know you can't
go through people's lives like this.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
A couple of years later, Daniels engaged to a divorced
mother of two from around Hawk's Bay. Will call her Christy.
She was beautiful, oh gorgeous.
Speaker 4 (16:22):
Yeah, So they got married.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
A lovely girl.
Speaker 4 (16:26):
He organized the entire wedding.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Doug and an Ahira couldn't actually make it to the ceremony.
Speaker 4 (16:31):
I just had a funny feeling that it wasn't that
his heart just wasn't in it. I didn't know all
the night of the wedding when they turned up at
our house and full wedding regalia, and she was looking like,
what the heck are we doing here? She said to him,
it's your wedding night. Your wife doesn't want to be here.
(16:53):
It wasn't long before things went pear shaped. He rang
me and asked me to come and pick him up,
and when I got there, he looked dreadful.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
The newlyweds had gone on a romantic weekend away, but
it had turned as an A hero says pear shaped.
Long story, but it ends with Daniel yanking the handbrake
of the moving car Christy was driving, and he jumped
out and ran.
Speaker 4 (17:18):
He said, she's insane, And he said basically, he confided
that their sex life wasn't great, that she wanted more
than he was willing to give.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
Yeah, this marriage didn't last.
Speaker 4 (17:34):
She came home and all her stuff was on the road.
Speaker 6 (17:39):
You talk about being a ladder day saint, that's hardly
the right way to do things. But never mind that,
just as a human being, you know, do that kind
of a mother with two kids in a strange down
it was great.
Speaker 4 (17:51):
It was some of our church sisters who found her
and helped her to move into a place. She stayed
for the next two years until the divorce.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
At the time, Doug was Sunday School president, Elder's Korum
president and Award missionary, and and a Hero was Relief
Society president. And Daniel it.
Speaker 4 (18:11):
Wasn't too long after the separation became formal where they
called him into the young Men's presidency.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
At the same time, Daniel was the advertising manager at
the local radio station, and Anaherer, by this time was
CEO of Nati Kahu. The EWE had a show each
week on the radio station. One of Unaher's colleagues would
go in and pre record. Sometimes like on this night.
Speaker 6 (18:40):
It was it Saturday, late at night too. It was
about ten oh.
Speaker 4 (18:43):
No, it wasn't that late. No, No, it was a
Saturday that the station was on automatic. It was a shutdown.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
I should just say here, Doug and and a Heer
have a folder full of documentation, a timeline of all
this backed up by emails, texts, and diaries. Anyway, this
radio host.
Speaker 6 (19:03):
Came into the studio and he turned on the lights
and there's a couch and on the couch is Daniel
and a young man. They sort of jumped up of flustered.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
The host was disturbed by what he'd seen, so he
told anaher about it.
Speaker 4 (19:28):
What happened was that he came to work on Monday
and told me about it. Oh, okay, because he knew
I was a member of the church, and he knew
Daniel was a member of the church. What he said
was that he was on the couch with a young
fellow who was definitely not sixteen, and they were sprang
apart and adjusting their clothes. He said, oh, really, Daniel, really.
Speaker 6 (19:52):
He said.
Speaker 4 (19:52):
Then I just went into the studio to do my recording.
But he thought about it, and he thought if he
had sons, and he thought, if that was my son,
I would want to know.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
At this stage, annahro hands it over to Doug as
her priesthood leader. He's the best place to deal with it.
Speaker 6 (20:16):
And I recognized right away that this is not usual,
and I phoned the bishop.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
Doug tells the Bishop what he's heard and hands over
the contact details of the witness.
Speaker 6 (20:28):
But other than that, I kept it completely to myself
because knowing that Bishop I said, he's going to get
right onto this thing. I'd done my duty as far
as that was concerned.
Speaker 4 (20:39):
Wouldn't have been even a fortnight after Doug had taken
the issue to him and he said to me, look,
I've interviewed your colleague and I find him to be credible. Unfortunately,
we need to know who the young man is. Do
you think you could ask him to go and find
(20:59):
out who they are manners?
Speaker 2 (21:01):
And I said no, Daniel is the radio host's boss essentially,
so an a hero doesn't feel comfortable asking this of him.
Speaker 4 (21:09):
That's an alarm that should have set the red legs
waving Church policy should have been put in place right then,
but it wasn't.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
That happened in mid twenty ten. In March twenty eleven,
there was another incident.
Speaker 4 (21:25):
My receptionist came up and said, Boss, you need to
come down to the front. There's a young kid out there.
He's crying his eyes out once to us to ring
his mum. I got down to the reception area and
this kid was just sobbing his eyes there. She looked
like he was around about eight nine, maybe a bit older,
but that's what he looked like. And I said where
(21:48):
are you? Where are you from?
Speaker 2 (21:49):
And the boy said he was from Auckland, about five
hours drive away. He told Anaherer, I.
Speaker 4 (21:56):
Want to ring my mum. He had the number, so
on a hero called his mom. She was very, very brisk.
I can't deal with this. He's got to go back
to his home where he's being fostered.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
This boy was a ward of the state.
Speaker 4 (22:12):
You could see he understood his mother wasn't going to
come and rescue him. But I said to him, Darling,
your mom can't come and get you. Where are you staying?
He said just around the road. And I said you,
what's the name of the people you're living with? And
he said, he's a strange man in his name's Daniel.
And I thought no, so put him in my car
(22:34):
and drove him around to Daniels. Took him to the
door and Daniel opened the door and said, have you
stopped being stupid? And I am haunted to this day
that I turned that child back over to Daniel.
Speaker 6 (22:54):
That's the first we knew that Daniel was a se caregiver.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Seth's was the government's child, Youth and Family services agency
known as Uranga Tamariki. Now, to become a siff's caregiver,
Daniel would have had to have gone through a vetting process,
police checks referees, and later siffs would confirm that someone
from the church was one of those referees. Around that
(23:23):
same time, the bishop that Doug had placed such high
hopes in left nothing to do with this story, just
personal circumstances that meant he had to travel a lot,
so his deputies filled in.
Speaker 6 (23:36):
So the counselor stepped up and did the work there.
And one of the counselors also happened to be a
policeman working in Kai Taia. And I said, what's happening
with Daniel anyway? And he said, well, I won't let
my kids go off there, That's what he said to me.
I was cobs back, to be honest with you, I thought, no,
(23:58):
I meant like going on there. I mean there has
to be some church discipline in there somewhere.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
Well, surely somewhere up the ranks, someone was doing something
to safeguard the children of the congregation. Doug went higher
up the chain and asked the state president what was
being done.
Speaker 6 (24:16):
And he kind of went yeah, but didn't elaborate. But
at least I was assured that he was aware of this.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
June of twenty eleven and heros at work and there's
a bunch of her.
Speaker 4 (24:31):
Colleagues gossiping around the chanting table.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
And Anahira says to the radio host guy who'd seen
Daniel on the couch with the boy.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
Hey, I see Daniel's side windows smashed, and he goes, oh, yeah,
he made a pass it and he named this guy
who's giving him a lift to Auckland and he reached
over to kiss his nick and he had reacted violently.
He jumped out and smashed the window.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
To be clear, this was a young man and a hearer,
and Doug can't agree on how old, but he was
at least nineteen, so.
Speaker 4 (25:03):
That and I did talk to Bishop about that, and
he just said, look, Daniel Hayes admitted that he's struggling
with the same six attraction. I don't thank god, thank god,
at least he's.
Speaker 6 (25:13):
At least it's an adult.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
Thinking about all these together, there's nothing definitively in these
incidents that Doug and Anahi have described that scream child abuse.
There's the guy on the couch. The witness says he's
definitely not sixteen, but no one's tracked him down, so
who knows. He might have just looked much younger than
he was. The siff's boy. He was never asked if
(25:38):
Daniel had molested him. He just offers that Daniel is
a strange man, and the guy Daniel had made an
unwelcome pass at definitely over nineteen. But Doug was pretty
certain there was more to it. Remember, Doug is someone
who did his time in an abusive foster care situation,
(25:59):
and while he was sexually abused, he reckons he's got
a good radar for when things might be a bit off.
Speaker 6 (26:06):
There's a part of me that still identifies with kids
who have no voice.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
So Doug became a thorn in his church leader's sides,
specifically the new bishop.
Speaker 6 (26:18):
I wasn't gonna let that dog hole, you know, I
just had to find out what, like, are you aware
of this stuff?
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Yeah? The bishop was aware. Daniel was getting some counseling,
although the counseling was focused on what the church calls
same sex attraction. But Doug at least felt Daniel's behavior
was being acknowledged and dealt with by the Church. After
these incidents, there would be a close eye on Daniel.
(26:46):
Job done in a sense, but then.
Speaker 6 (26:50):
Couldn't have been more than a Sunday later, the Bishop
was up on the podium and Anna Heer and I
were sitting in the chapel and he he looks at
the Word and he says, Daniel Taylor, will you please stand?
And then he turns and he looks me right in
(27:11):
the eye and he goes, Daniel Taylor, you've been called
as the ward seminary teacher.
Speaker 4 (27:18):
When we are called, we are asked to stand. The
ward is then told this person has been found worthy
to be called as all those who can sustain him
showed by uplifted hand. Those who are against showed by
the same means.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
And did anyone raise their hands against No.
Speaker 6 (27:38):
I was so shocked, to be honest with you, I
turned to my wife and I'm looking at the bishop
and I am really just starting to boil inside. You know,
word seminary teacher. That means he's now got access to
all of the youth. It just don't dawned on me
(27:59):
like a like a ledge Hamer. I didn't have the
presence of mine to raise my hand at that time.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
Would it be unusual to raise your hand against Yeah?
Speaker 6 (28:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (28:13):
Over the next week, I approached every family with youth
and I told them about our concerns, and that's when
several of them poor their kids out of seminary.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
But this exodus was short lived. Dargan and a Hero
say they know of at least one family that church
leaders pressured into returning.
Speaker 4 (28:32):
If you don't, he will not get his arm certificate.
Eighty percent attendance required to part to receive a certificate,
and they inferred that he would not be able to
save a mission.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Seminary school, which is basically Bible study for fourteen to
eighteen year olds, is held at church every weekday morning
before school. And a Hero had been the seminary teacher
for a time. She knew the job and how it
should be done. It's there in the many church manuals.
Speaker 6 (29:00):
Daniel is different and the teaching was being done at
his house and that same group was also encouraged to,
you know, have sleepovers.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
Again, there's policy in place for this.
Speaker 6 (29:14):
First of all, you have to let the bishop know
if you're going to have a sleepover, and then there
are strict rules. Boys in one room, girls in another room.
There has to be two adults, right, and of course
nobody sleeping with the children. These sleepovers became a regular occurrence.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
How did Daniel? How was he allowed to break the rules?
Speaker 6 (29:35):
Nobody was kept checking the rules.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Doug and Naha kept their ears wide open when they
were around their grandson and his friends, just in case.
Speaker 4 (29:45):
They're joking about it, laughing about it. You know, Daniel
Dutchess fills people up.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
They must be thinking themselves.
Speaker 4 (29:53):
The adults know about the stuff, and nothing's happening, so
it must be just a joke.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
At this stage, Doug has become such a squeaky wheel
about the Daniel issue that from his perspective, he's being
ostracized from the congregation by church leaders.
Speaker 6 (30:07):
I was made to feel that get over it. You know,
he's getting the counseling he needs and it's all being
taken care of. Just get over it.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
Even an a hero at this stage thinks it's a
waste of energy.
Speaker 6 (30:23):
She very much wanted me to just let it go.
But if I have a feeling in my heart that
something isn't right, you know, I want some resolution there.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
It's just becoming too close to home. Literally, after Doug
learns that his young neighbor has been invited to Daniels
for sleepovers, Doug confronts Daniel.
Speaker 6 (30:46):
Daniel I said, look, under no conditionery yet'd go anywhere
near see you. I says, we're never going to let
him come over to your house, and you know, why
do you understand me? And he sat there and he
didn't say a worried nothing. He just sat there with
a stone face, and then he got up and left.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
Sure the church leadership didn't take any steps to limit
Daniel's access to children. They actually gave him more responsibility.
He was made a High Counselor, which meant that he
was required to travel and engage with church youth all
over Northland. It's mid twenty twelve and it's been a
(31:28):
full two years since the incident at the radio station,
and over one year since the day Anaher returned a
young boy in Siff's care to Daniel's store, and all
this time Doug and an Ahira have been trying to
alert people to their concerns. The conversations with one Kaitaia
bishop and then another the conversations with other parents about
being wary at the seminary class. Nothing seems to have worked,
(31:53):
but then an unusual opportunity presents itself. It starts with
some shocking news in August twenty twelve that brings Katya
to the attention of national media.
Speaker 5 (32:06):
The lawyer for the Kaitia Deputy Principle is the police
warned the school three years ago about the man having
sleepovers with students at his house.
Speaker 2 (32:15):
These were different sleepovers. Teacher James Parker was arrested and
later admitted seventy four charges of sexual abuse against twenty
different boys.
Speaker 6 (32:27):
I was following the James Parker case and the paper
and they had a hotline at the very end.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
As part of the investigation. An eight hundred hotline was
set up. The police were asking for any tips from
anyone who might know anything more about Parker's offending. And
when Doug saw the hotline in that article.
Speaker 6 (32:47):
I just made my mind up, sitting there in our
backyard and I said, I've got to do this, and
so I went right into my office and I called
the heartline and I said, I think I've got something
to report.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
Finally, Doug takes his concerns outside of the church, and
when Doug called this hotline set up by police, things
changed quickly. James Parker had been a deputy principal at
a local school and a prolific pedophile, and now police
(33:25):
are building a case against him. There's an eight hundred
hot line for people to call if they have any
more information. So this was the hot line that Doug called,
not to give a report about Parker, but to share
his suspicions about the sleepovers happening just down the road,
the ones at Daniel Taylor's house.
Speaker 6 (33:46):
And I said, I think I've got something to report,
but it's not James Parker, and I could feel just
the relief coming off my shoulders.
Speaker 4 (33:57):
You range me and tell me you've done it.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
It's just over a month before Daniel is arrested. During
that time, SIFs revoke Daniel's status as a caregiver. Police
will later tell the New Zealand Herald that Daniel was
making plans to flee to Australia and at the same
time he's doing damage control at church.
Speaker 4 (34:18):
Already he was manipulating the narrative with members of our
church who continued to support them, possibly support them to
this day.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
Yeah, this is something I've found quite fascinating about the
Daniel Taylor case. Even once he'd been arrested, even as
all the accounts of what he'd done to numerous children
started to come out, he's still got a lot of
support from some people in the church. And maybe that
makes some sense.
Speaker 4 (34:47):
So this is a man who has done a lot
of good things with them, some fun things, and has
been an exemplier and a modeltist some of them. You know,
there is an incredible amount of confusion. How do you
reconcile these two people?
Speaker 2 (35:04):
But also there's something uncomfortably familiar about this, because it's
something I've heard in my interviews with Caroline and with Jade,
with Neville and with John. There seems to be a
very strong impulse for members of the Mormon community to
side with the abuser. And this isn't just about bishops
and state presidents. Remember how Jade said that when her
(35:28):
abusive husband returned to his ward in another city, it
was almost like the community there went out of its
way to build up his manner, to forgive and forget,
almost to celebrate the sinner for returning to the right path.
And meanwhile, the victim seems to be ignored or overlooked
or even blamed.
Speaker 9 (35:49):
A Kai Tai, a businessman and foster appearance charged with
abusing young boys, will remain in jail over Christmas. Daniel Taylor,
who was an elder in the Mormon Church and a child,
youth and family caregivers, facing twenty two charges of sexual
assault on boys. He applied for electronic bail, but Judge
John McDonald refused it he sees mister Taylor is facing
(36:12):
serious charges involving children, including one who had been in
his custiners.
Speaker 2 (36:16):
As the months passed and Daniel remained in custody, there
was a real range of reactions in Kaitaya. Some women
in the ward arranged a series of WHOI open meetings
and put some hard questions to church leaders.
Speaker 4 (36:29):
How could you put your relationship with Daniel in your
subject of judgment over and above the safety of our children?
Speaker 2 (36:39):
And Doug heard from people who had stories things like
seeing Daniel in a car with a boy that now
made more sense to them. But at the same time,
Doug grew increasingly frustrated with what he saw as a
kind of save Daniel Taylor movement in the congregation.
Speaker 6 (36:57):
There were definitely those people who were very vocal and
saying that he was not guilty, that somehow the victims
themselves had been cajoled or had been guided, you know,
towards making these accusations against Daniel.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
Some of these people were lobbying to have Daniel released
before his trial.
Speaker 6 (37:17):
Petitioning the court to have Daniel released to their homes
on bail. With multiple youth in our ward stumbling around broken,
you know, and nobody was talking to them.
Speaker 4 (37:37):
One of the things that struck me was the silence
from the pulpit. The message should have clearly been given,
our youth are precious and thank you to those of
you who came forward. Instead, we had an incident.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
Daniel had been in jail awaiting trial for about six
months at this stage.
Speaker 4 (37:59):
First Sunday of the month is always fast and testimony,
and this particular sister who had staunchly defended Daniel, got
up to bear her testimony and said very tearfully that
she visited our brother in jail and looked down at
these three boys and said, and he forgives you. I
(38:23):
did stand up Da Tarma No.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
Stopped some context here. Those three boys were brothers and
was some of Taylor's victims. Eventually, Taylor would plead guilty
to nine charges of sexual offending against boys, including one
who'd been in his care. He was sentenced to five
years and seven months in prison.
Speaker 4 (38:48):
That woman who stood and said, you know he forgives you.
She was convinced that he only confessed just to get
it over and done with and will relieve you boys
of the burden of having to testify. After Daniel was arrested,
another member came forward to me and disclosed that in
two thousand and seven, after Daniel had got back from
(39:10):
his mission, he had molested her son and she had
taken it to the bishopric at that time, and they
had basically fobbed her off. She said it wasn't until
charges against Daniel had made public that they had felt
able to hear and her husband had felt able to
go to the police.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
So what impact did Taylor's offending have. One boy said
he had felt confused and disgusted by Taylor's assaults and
became withdrawn from friends in school. Another said he was
abused by Taylor for years and he often felt a
sense of guilt. One teenager wrote, even though I threatened
(39:54):
him with violence. He still kept trying to touch me.
I hate him for what he did to me. Another
boy said he was embarrassed and didn't want to tell
anyone because he was afraid they would think he was gay.
Yet another victim said he had considered hanging himself to
escape Taylor, who had been his caregiver. The sentencing judge
(40:16):
said Daniel showed a lack of insight into his offending
and a lack of empathy for his victims. They said
they were not convinced of Taylor's remorse, and noted that
his apology letters to his victims were all identical a
single sentence with the sign off regards The LDS Church
(40:37):
issued a statement at the time saying it has zero
tolerance for abuse of any kind. Doug and Nanahira are
a pretty extraordinary couple of people. It's remarkable that Doug
blew the whistle on Taylor, but it's also remarkable that
(40:59):
afterwards Hearer chose to speak up and directly criticize her
church's leadership in the media whilst still remaining a member.
It's a testament really to her manna both within and
beyond the church.
Speaker 5 (41:13):
Oka Mormon and Nasi Carho chief executive Anahiro Herbert Grave
says she warned church leaders about Taylor that they responded
by giving him even more responsibility for teenagers.
Speaker 2 (41:24):
When she spoke to Ironzed in late twenty thirteen after
Daniel Taylor's conviction, there was disquiet from leaders in her ward,
but Anaherer told them she wasn't speaking on behalf of
the church.
Speaker 4 (41:34):
I said, now make sure I'm speaking clearly as an individual.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
Ana Heer wasn't going to be silenced anymore.
Speaker 4 (41:42):
When I look at all of the leaders and the
adults who, including myself, who failed, we all had experiences
in our lives which caused us to reprecate a pettern
of behavior that we'd have seen dane in our own lives.
I know all of these people, while they failed, they
(42:02):
are not evil. There's an institutional deficit that allows these
things to continue to happen if we don't learn from it.
There now there's more and more generations of victims lining up.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
Just because on a hero is a critic though, doesn't
mean she wants to leave her church.
Speaker 4 (42:25):
You know, as we talk, I think to myself, why
am I still in this church? And for me, I
flip it like this. I've run into this kind of
thing all throughout my life. I ain't leaving. I haven't
done a jolly thing wrong. The only way I leave
is churches if I'm kicked out. I think I'm an
advocate by nature. There's very little that I'm afraid of.
(42:48):
Probably my biggest fear is to stand before my two
winner and for them to say you had the ability,
you were given that gift, and you didn't use it.
Speaker 2 (43:02):
For Doug, though, the whole Daniel Taylor thing was just
one test of faith too far. He tried to tell
his church superiors that there was a problem, and they
simply wouldn't deal with it. So eventually he picked up
the phone and called the right kind of helpline. He
did what someone should have done long before.
Speaker 6 (43:24):
If I hadn't gone to the police, Daniel might still
be an active member of the church.
Speaker 2 (43:32):
Doug doesn't go to church anymore. His trust has been broken.
Speaker 6 (43:37):
We all I did was what I was supposed to do.
I told my bishop.
Speaker 2 (43:41):
I told my bishop, it's simply beyond doubt. The LDS
Church has an abuse problem, the LDS Church has an
abuse reporting problem, and frankly, there don't seem to be
enough dougs out there who were willing to call it
out and ring the other helpline, the one that's answered
(44:02):
by a police officer, not a church lawyer. In the
next and final episode, will meet some of the people
who reckon there's a way out of this. Is it reformable?
Speaker 6 (44:15):
Yes, but somebody is gonna have to put the hit
above the paracos.
Speaker 2 (44:19):
To people inside and outside the church who started to
fight back.
Speaker 5 (44:23):
We have a culture that really does allow abuse to flourish.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
And we'll ask this. As the church keeps denying it
has a problem. Is it time to stop waiting for
it to do the right thing?
Speaker 5 (44:36):
Who does my silence benefit?
Speaker 2 (44:44):
We sought comment from the church in response to the
allegations in this episode. The church did not address the
allegations directly, but in a statement said, as followers of
Jesus Christ, members of the Church Jesus Christ of Latter
day Saints a poor abuse of any As a church,
we invest heavily on prevention and response and will continue
(45:05):
to do so. In the church. Any who serve as
youth leaders with children need to complete child protection training
to help them safeguard young people. This training includes instruction
for those working with children to immediately report abuse to
legal authorities and do all they can to assist victims
of abuse. Heaven's Helpline was funded by New Zealand on
(45:32):
Air and the New Zealand Herald for enzed me and iHeartRadio.
It was researched, written and presented by me Murray Jones.
My producers were Adam Dudding, who co wrote the series,
and Kirsten Johnston from Pop Sop Media, who edited and
sound designed it. Phil Brownlee is our sound engineer. Music
(45:52):
was by Thomas Arbur and Anita Clark. Archival audio came
from TVNZED and RNZ Sales is executive producer here at
New Zealand Herald. If you have a story you'd like
to share with me about the LDS Church, or just
want to get in touch, email me securely at Murray
Reports at Proton dot m E or dm me on
(46:17):
X at Murray Reports. And for more on this podcast,
head to nzedherld dot co dot nz slash Heaven's Helpline.
It's time intensive doing investigations like this, so if you
value this kind of journalism, please support it by going
to your podcast platform and rating and reviewing the series
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