Andrew Dickens: If we don't want congestion charges, give us alternatives

On the front page of the New Zealand Herald today there was a poll, and it shows that we're split as a nation on the issue of capital gains tax. So, the question for us here in this room and you in your room and all of us together is, should we have another discussion on the CGT?

And my answer to that is, of course not. And why? We have no real idea of what it looks like, so we don't know what we're talking about. People who have assets that are accruing capital do not want it because they've never had to pay tax on it before, and no one likes paying more tax. People who do want a capital gains tax might want it if it means there's more money for health and education or benefits, but then if they start getting assets, will they be happy paying more tax?

All the policies we've had so far on capital gains tax are so wishy-washy and indeterminate, we have no idea what it means. When will the valuations be calculated? Will we pay tax on mythical unrealized gains? How much money will it really raise? Have we had any answers to any of those questions? No, we have not. Could we have answers to those questions? Maybe. David Parker, before the last election, apparently came up with a comprehensive capital gains tax plan, but we never saw it. So how can we debate it?

Labour's policy is such a once over lightly, we can't answer any of this. We are split on the general concept of capital gains tax and always have been, so why discuss it? It is a ridiculous Russian doll situation, and we go round and round, and we've decided let's not talk about that today.

But we can talk about real taxes. And real taxes are increasing. And if you don't believe me, take a look at your rates bill, because rates are a tax. There are all sorts of different taxes in this world. And it's the sneaky ones that don't call themselves taxes that are the really sneaky ones.

We had a real tax come at us, a couple of them actually, over the weekend. On Saturday, the front page was all about the legislation that's been introduced, meaning that councils can charge congestion taxes in the future. Awesome. So we'll be paying taxes on roads we already paid taxes to build. And if not taxes, then rates, because the council builds a lot of our roads. And of course, as I've said already, rates are also taxes. Talk about double jeopardy. We're paying taxes on taxes. It's two bites of the pie. And then you have to wonder why the National-led coalition wants to increase our taxes when their mission has always been to reduce them. They hate taxes, they say. Some of them say we're overtaxed. They want them gone.
So the motivation for taxes has many faces. They're used to punish the rich because of the politics of envy, I get that. They're used to redistribute wealth because some people are poor and some people are not.

And of course, they're all used to fund health and education systems. And we also use taxes to punish or to change behaviour. So I guess if we're talking about congestion taxes in this instance, we're talking about changing our behaviour. Is that enough reason for National to want to do this?

The behaviour they're trying to change is to make more of us drive off-peak and less of us on-peak, making the roads flow better. I say good luck with that. Good luck with your tax, because in this age of cost of living increases and rate rises and water costs, I believe that no one at this moment wants to pay more tax. And no wonder Wayne Brown in the paper on Saturday said the council is not going to use this new power anytime soon, because he knows a vote killer when he sees one. I mean, who's going to vote for that? Turkeys do not vote for Christmas. And you have to ask, would it actually work?

It might make mums on the school run think twice about using a motorway at peak hour. But, you know, tradies and the people who carry all our goods and the transporters, they won't have the option. They'll have to pay, and that is a further cost on their bottom line. And whenever a business gets a further cost on the bottom line, you know what they do? They pass it on. Who to? You and I, increasing the costs of services.

The very fact, and I said this yesterday, the very fact that a young modern city like Auckland or Tauranga or Wellington, well, let's say Auckland, just over 1 and a half million people, it's a small city internationally, has got itself into a position where a centre-right government thinks the answer is a congestion tax is a complete and utter failure of our civil planning over the last generations.

Sure, I understand congestion taxes in London. I mean, that built and built and built, and there's no more room for roads, and they've got undergrounds, and they've got buses, and they've got trains, and they've got everything, and still they're congested. So sure, put a congestion tax on in London. But really, Auckland? Hello? Really? Tauranga? Tauranga is our most taxed roadi

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Kerry Wood of Mornings podcast from
newstalkshed B.

Speaker 2 (01:44):
What we did have today though, was the front page
of the Herald, and there was a poll and it
shows that we're split as a nation on the issue
of capital gains tax. So the question for us here
in this room and you in your room, and all
of us together is should we have another discussion on
the CGT? And my answer to that is of course not,

(02:09):
and why we have no real idea of what it
looks like, so we don't know what we're talking about.
People who have assets that are accruing capital do not
want it because they've never had to pay tax on
it before, and no one likes paying more tax. And
people who do want a capital gains tax might want
it if it means there's more money for health and

(02:29):
education or benefits. But then if they start getting assets,
will they be happy paying more tax? And all the
policies we've had so far on capital gains tax are
so wishy washy and indeterminate. We have no idea what
it means. When will the valuations be calculated, will we
pay tax on mythical unrealized gains? How much money will

(02:51):
it really raise. Have we had any answers to any
of those questions? No, we have not. Could we have
answers to those questions? Maybe David Parker, before the last
election apparently came up with a comprehensive capital gains tax plan,
but we ever saw it. So how can we debate it.
Labour's policy is such or once over lightly, we can't

(03:14):
answer any of this. We are split on the general
concept of capital gains tax and always have been, so
why discuss it. It is a ridiculous Russian doll situation
and we go round and round and round, and we've
decided let's not talk about that today. But we can
talk about real taxes. And real taxes are increasing. And

(03:36):
if you don't believe me, take a look at your
rates bill, because rates are a tax. There are all
sorts of different taxes in this world, and it's the
sneaky ones that don't call themselves taxes that are the
really sneaky ones. So we had a real tax come
at us, a couple of them. Actually over the weekend.
On Saturday, the front page was all about the legislation

(03:58):
that's been introduced, meaning that councils can charge congestion taxes
in the future, so we'll be paying taxes on roads
we already paid taxes to build and if not taxes,
then rates because the Council builds a lot of our roads,
and of course, as upset already rates are also taxes.

(04:20):
Talk about double jeopardy. We're paying taxes on taxes. It's
two bytes of the pie. And then you have to
wonder why the National their coalition, wants to increase our
taxes when their mission has always been to reduce them.
They hate taxes, they say some of them say we're
over tax they want them gone. So the motivation for

(04:43):
taxes has many faces. They use to punish the rich
because the politics of MB I get that, they use
to redistribute wealth because some people are poor and some
people are not, and of course they're all used to
fund health and education systems. And we also use taxes
to punish or to change behavior. So I guess, if

(05:06):
we're talking about congestion taxes in this instance, we're talking
about changing our behavior. Is that enough reason for national
to want to do this. The behavior they're trying to
change is to make more of us drive off peak
and less of us on peak. Making the roads flow better.
And I say good luck with that, and good luck

(05:27):
with your tax because in this age a cost of
living increases, and rape rises and water costs. I believe
that no one at this moment wants to pay more
tax and no wonder. Wayne Brown in the paper on
Saturday said the council is not going to use this
new power anytime soon because he knows a vote killer
when he sees one. I mean, who's going to vote

(05:48):
for that? Turkeys do not vote for Christmas. And you
have to ask would it actually work. It might make
mums on the school run think twice about using a
motorway at peak hour, but you know, tradees and the
people who carry all our goods and the transporters, they

(06:08):
won't have the option. They'll have to pay and that
is a further cost on their bottom line. And whenever
a business gets a further cost on the bottom line,
you know what they do. They pass it on who
to you? And I increasing the costs of services. The
very fact and I said this yesterday, the very fact
that a young, modern city like Auckland or Towdonger or Wellington,

(06:29):
but let's say Auckland just over one and a half
million people. It's a small city internationally, has got itself
into a position where a center right government thinks the
answer is a congestion tax. Is a complete and utter
failure of our civil planning over the last generations. Sure,
I understand congestion taxes in London. I mean they've built

(06:51):
and built and built and built and built, and there's
no more room for roads. And they've got undergrounds and
they've got buses and they've got trains and they've got everything,
and still they're congestion. So sure, put a congestion tax
on in London. But really, Auckland, Hello, Really toe Runger
Towunger is our most taxed roading system. Got a couple

(07:12):
of them there. You had the k road ages ago
did it work? Or Wellington? And I'll talk more about
Wellington later because today's a big day for Wellington transport.
The fact of the matter, if you don't like the
congestion tax is all we had to do was provide
alternatives to the car that were affordable and efficient. But
every time we talked about public transport options or alternate

(07:35):
modes or god for bid cycle ways, they've always been
shouted down by people who think we still live in
a rural village and not in modern cities, and we
should all have the human right to drive from doorstep
to doorstep. Well, that's a lack of foresight, is it not,
because we kept on growing and growing and growing. Unfortunately, transportation,

(07:56):
like public transport, is the answer, because there's very little
room for more roads. But then again we'll have to
figure out how to pay for that transport system, and
again that will fall on you and me and our wallets,
just the same as with any tax. But at the moment, unbelievably,
under a national leg coalition, another tax is coming. And

(08:18):
do you think our roads are going to suddenly clear out?

Speaker 1 (08:23):
I don't. For more from Kerry Wooden Mornings, listen live
to News Talks a B from nine am weekdays, or
follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.