September 22, 2025 • 9 mins
Infrastructure in New Zealand is being called out for being too political.
A significant jolt to the construction sector thanks to Government investment to hospital and school infrastructure.
Almost half a billion dollars will go towards upgrades and maintenance projects across the country.
Construction activity is at a six year low, with thousands of jobs lost in the last two years.
Infrastructure NZ CEO Nick Leggett told Kerre Woodham the mindset we apply to infrastructure is too political – too stop/start.
He says there’s often too much division within government, with each portfolio responsible for their own projects, and we don’t centralise the good skills and capabilities.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Carrywood and Morning's podcast from News Talks.
He'd be the Education.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Minister yesterday and veiled a four hundred and thirteen million
dollar package to get maintenance and improvement jobs underway sooner.
Erica Stanford says it will provide more certainty for contractors,
more jobs in every single part of the country, from
cities to rural areas. To discuss this, I'm joined by
Infrastructure New Zealand Chief Executive Nick Leggett. Good morning to you, Hello, Kerry.
(00:35):
How is it that twenty years after you were basically
formed under a different name but same concept, we're still
living in an age of stop start projects where one
government starts them and another halts them.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Well, I'd love it if an industry group had the
influence that was able to cure every problem in infrastructure,
but sadly we don't. But the issue that you've raised
with these classrooms and they're building goes to the heart
of our infrastructure challenges exact country.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
But we've got you that's been around for twenty years
with considerable lobbying power. We've got the Infrastructure Commission that
was set up in twenty eighteen, who presumably oversaw these grandiose,
grand designs. Let's make a television program about the classrooms
and the kying of water housing projects.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
What the hell, well, I'm taking it out on you.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
I'm sorry you were brave enough to come on.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
I've got broad shoulders. The truth is that the culture
of the way we do infrastructure and the mindset that
we apply to it is too political. Where two stops start.
We're a small market, and what happens is we don't
(02:00):
look internationally for good ways of doing things. We try
and invent our own. And there's too much, often too
much division within government. You know, education will do their thing,
health will do their thing, transport will do their thing.
We don't centralize all the good skills and the capabilities
that do infrastructure. And to be fair to the Infrastructure Commission,
they haven't been around that long and they've this year
(02:23):
introducing their National Infrastructure Plan. Not that a plan is
the savior to all, but it is about having that
project pipeline and agreed ways of doing things, the way
we fund stuff, plan projects, and getting that advance thinking
done before we actually start building. And I have to
(02:45):
give the government a bouquet here. If you look at
that announcement. Now, yeah, it's a re announcement and it's
a merger of several other announcements and typical sort of
you know, political fashion at the moment. But they've actually
got the average cost of a classroom down, they say
from one point two million to six hundred and sixty thousand.
That that is a really good example of where things
(03:08):
are working because if you plan in advance and you
get you get the sort of design standardized, and you
get work done off site, you can get those kind
of efficiencies and carry This goes to another big part
of our problem. We actually spend on average on infrastructure
(03:29):
above average in comparison to the OECD, but the value
we get is in the bottom ten percent. And the
value that different that differential is because we don't plan properly,
we don't align, and we don't you know, everybody's got
to have their own little bastion of delivery and influence.
(03:51):
And it does have to change, it really does.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
It absolutely has to. I mean, I am basically the
pip to your gladys Knight, you know, doing the do
what to the chorus? Amen?
Speaker 3 (04:02):
Brother?
Speaker 2 (04:03):
But this is just absurd and it's been highlighted so
beautifully really in the most tragic, multi billion dollar kind
of a way. With caring order and with the school buildings.
There has got to be a way. If the major
parties can't do it themselves, then you take it out
(04:26):
of their hands. If they're going to let ideology trump pragmatism,
then you take it out of their hands and you
give it to the Infrastructure Commission or an independent agency
to plan and do it properly. Over twenty years. The
money we would save, the jobs we would save, the
emigration we would save would be phenomenal. And I think
(04:48):
we have a right to demand that is taxpace.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Well, I think you're hitting the nail on the head.
It's not about taking it away necessarily. But next year
in New Zealanders will vote, and what we should be
voting for if we want to do infrastructure faster, better
and cheaper. To be honest, what we want to do
(05:12):
is demand of particularly our two major parties, that there
won't be these wild cancelations, reprogramming, you know, pausing of infrastructure.
We've actually got to let the pipeline go and allow
trust the capability of people who do this stuff every
day to do it properly. You see other countries do
(05:34):
this better and we don't. We've politicized the projects. You know,
we now celebrate a cancelation in this country. We don't
celebrate cutting the ribbon because we've turned the politics into
are you in favor of this route for this bus
lane or this road or are you or know that
(05:54):
hospital can't go there. We've actually we've got to see
infrastructure as the enabler of better lives for kiwis and
more productive and flourishing economy and understand the levers that
we can pull on doing that. But we've politicized the projects,
not the results, and that has to change. So you know,
(06:17):
we need to more buy partisan approach. We need to
hold the two major parties to account and say, if
you get elected, you've got to promise. You've got to
give us assurance as voters that you're not going to
up end a whole lot of stuff. Because when they
cancel and pause and rescope projects, they cost money. They
delay those projects from happening, so the benefits couldn't longer
(06:41):
to get to us.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
You could not let those projects instigated by labor keep going.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
Well in some cases, that's right, So that then that
goes back to, well, how good are we as a
country at actually naming and framing the projects that we need.
We should get the best. We should get the experts
in a centralized part of government to do that and
trust and trust them. I don't. We shouldn't. We shouldn't. Well,
(07:11):
that's why we've got to improve. But there are there
are good people. Of course, there are good people, and
both the public and the private sectors they but they
do need to be trusted, They need to be held
to account, and they need to have a plan. This
is the other problem. What do we building towards carry?
What sort of country are we trying to become? I
don't have the answer to that, but you would answer
a lot of these infrastructure challenges if you knew why
(07:35):
you were building something, what it was actually trying to do,
how it fitted into the big picture.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Do you know right now it's set all for efficient
and functioning. That would be good.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
Well, that would be great, wouldn't it. Yeah? I mean,
and actually that's why the classroom the classroom announcement is
good news in that respect.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
Well, it is if you can get two classrooms for
the price of one, and they are warm, and they
are dry. Without having beautiful curl acues that call out
to the ancestors or the elements around us to protect
us and safeguard us in our learning. Great, you know
I can do without that.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
And and the other big question is though, and this
is what we would say as an industry. So announcements
are great. Press releases telling us, you know, we're allocating
four hundred million here or eighty millionaire are great, but
they don't equal work in market. They don't equal shovels
on the ground and classrooms built so kids can improve
their learning. And this is where we've got a more
(08:36):
effectively hold government announcements and government itself to account because
what we badly need in a really struggling economy because
we've lost you know, the construction industry cares lost fifteen
or sixteen thousand workers in them, that's true, we've lost
twelve hundred consulting engineers from the market. When this is
(08:57):
and this is the critical point about why infrastructure costs more.
Here we have this, we go on this building rampage,
we build well, do good. Somebody comes in a new
government potentially cuts projects and the economy obviously has been
a big factor in this and we don't spend as much.
And that's happening in local government with water as much
(09:19):
as it's happening in central government. As some people then
depart the skills to depart the country, then it costs
more to bring them back.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
I know, well, let's work on it together. You do
your job and I'll do mine and hold them both
to account, both major parties to account. Thank you so
much for your time, Nick Leggett, Infrastructure New Zealand Chief Executive.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
For more from Kerry Wood and Mornings, listen live to
news talks that'd be from nine am weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Carrywood and Morning's podcast from News Talks.
He'd be the Education.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Minister yesterday and veiled a four hundred and thirteen million
dollar package to get maintenance and improvement jobs underway sooner.
Erica Stanford says it will provide more certainty for contractors,
more jobs in every single part of the country, from
cities to rural areas. To discuss this, I'm joined by
Infrastructure New Zealand Chief Executive Nick Leggett. Good morning to you, Hello, Kerry.
(00:35):
How is it that twenty years after you were basically
formed under a different name but same concept, we're still
living in an age of stop start projects where one
government starts them and another halts them.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Well, I'd love it if an industry group had the
influence that was able to cure every problem in infrastructure,
but sadly we don't. But the issue that you've raised
with these classrooms and they're building goes to the heart
of our infrastructure challenges exact country.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
But we've got you that's been around for twenty years
with considerable lobbying power. We've got the Infrastructure Commission that
was set up in twenty eighteen, who presumably oversaw these grandiose,
grand designs. Let's make a television program about the classrooms
and the kying of water housing projects.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
What the hell, well, I'm taking it out on you.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
I'm sorry you were brave enough to come on.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
I've got broad shoulders. The truth is that the culture
of the way we do infrastructure and the mindset that
we apply to it is too political. Where two stops start.
We're a small market, and what happens is we don't
(02:00):
look internationally for good ways of doing things. We try
and invent our own. And there's too much, often too
much division within government. You know, education will do their thing,
health will do their thing, transport will do their thing.
We don't centralize all the good skills and the capabilities
that do infrastructure. And to be fair to the Infrastructure Commission,
they haven't been around that long and they've this year
(02:23):
introducing their National Infrastructure Plan. Not that a plan is
the savior to all, but it is about having that
project pipeline and agreed ways of doing things, the way
we fund stuff, plan projects, and getting that advance thinking
done before we actually start building. And I have to
(02:45):
give the government a bouquet here. If you look at
that announcement. Now, yeah, it's a re announcement and it's
a merger of several other announcements and typical sort of
you know, political fashion at the moment. But they've actually
got the average cost of a classroom down, they say
from one point two million to six hundred and sixty thousand.
That that is a really good example of where things
(03:08):
are working because if you plan in advance and you
get you get the sort of design standardized, and you
get work done off site, you can get those kind
of efficiencies and carry This goes to another big part
of our problem. We actually spend on average on infrastructure
(03:29):
above average in comparison to the OECD, but the value
we get is in the bottom ten percent. And the
value that different that differential is because we don't plan properly,
we don't align, and we don't you know, everybody's got
to have their own little bastion of delivery and influence.
(03:51):
And it does have to change, it really does.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
It absolutely has to. I mean, I am basically the
pip to your gladys Knight, you know, doing the do
what to the chorus? Amen?
Speaker 3 (04:02):
Brother?
Speaker 2 (04:03):
But this is just absurd and it's been highlighted so
beautifully really in the most tragic, multi billion dollar kind
of a way. With caring order and with the school buildings.
There has got to be a way. If the major
parties can't do it themselves, then you take it out
(04:26):
of their hands. If they're going to let ideology trump pragmatism,
then you take it out of their hands and you
give it to the Infrastructure Commission or an independent agency
to plan and do it properly. Over twenty years. The
money we would save, the jobs we would save, the
emigration we would save would be phenomenal. And I think
(04:48):
we have a right to demand that is taxpace.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Well, I think you're hitting the nail on the head.
It's not about taking it away necessarily. But next year
in New Zealanders will vote, and what we should be
voting for if we want to do infrastructure faster, better
and cheaper. To be honest, what we want to do
(05:12):
is demand of particularly our two major parties, that there
won't be these wild cancelations, reprogramming, you know, pausing of infrastructure.
We've actually got to let the pipeline go and allow
trust the capability of people who do this stuff every
day to do it properly. You see other countries do
(05:34):
this better and we don't. We've politicized the projects. You know,
we now celebrate a cancelation in this country. We don't
celebrate cutting the ribbon because we've turned the politics into
are you in favor of this route for this bus
lane or this road or are you or know that
(05:54):
hospital can't go there. We've actually we've got to see
infrastructure as the enabler of better lives for kiwis and
more productive and flourishing economy and understand the levers that
we can pull on doing that. But we've politicized the projects,
not the results, and that has to change. So you know,
(06:17):
we need to more buy partisan approach. We need to
hold the two major parties to account and say, if
you get elected, you've got to promise. You've got to
give us assurance as voters that you're not going to
up end a whole lot of stuff. Because when they
cancel and pause and rescope projects, they cost money. They
delay those projects from happening, so the benefits couldn't longer
(06:41):
to get to us.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
You could not let those projects instigated by labor keep going.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
Well in some cases, that's right, So that then that
goes back to, well, how good are we as a
country at actually naming and framing the projects that we need.
We should get the best. We should get the experts
in a centralized part of government to do that and
trust and trust them. I don't. We shouldn't. We shouldn't. Well,
(07:11):
that's why we've got to improve. But there are there
are good people. Of course, there are good people, and
both the public and the private sectors they but they
do need to be trusted, They need to be held
to account, and they need to have a plan. This
is the other problem. What do we building towards carry?
What sort of country are we trying to become? I
don't have the answer to that, but you would answer
a lot of these infrastructure challenges if you knew why
(07:35):
you were building something, what it was actually trying to do,
how it fitted into the big picture.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Do you know right now it's set all for efficient
and functioning. That would be good.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
Well, that would be great, wouldn't it. Yeah? I mean,
and actually that's why the classroom the classroom announcement is
good news in that respect.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
Well, it is if you can get two classrooms for
the price of one, and they are warm, and they
are dry. Without having beautiful curl acues that call out
to the ancestors or the elements around us to protect
us and safeguard us in our learning. Great, you know
I can do without that.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
And and the other big question is though, and this
is what we would say as an industry. So announcements
are great. Press releases telling us, you know, we're allocating
four hundred million here or eighty millionaire are great, but
they don't equal work in market. They don't equal shovels
on the ground and classrooms built so kids can improve
their learning. And this is where we've got a more
(08:36):
effectively hold government announcements and government itself to account because
what we badly need in a really struggling economy because
we've lost you know, the construction industry cares lost fifteen
or sixteen thousand workers in them, that's true, we've lost
twelve hundred consulting engineers from the market. When this is
(08:57):
and this is the critical point about why infrastructure costs more.
Here we have this, we go on this building rampage,
we build well, do good. Somebody comes in a new
government potentially cuts projects and the economy obviously has been
a big factor in this and we don't spend as much.
And that's happening in local government with water as much
(09:19):
as it's happening in central government. As some people then
depart the skills to depart the country, then it costs
more to bring them back.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
I know, well, let's work on it together. You do
your job and I'll do mine and hold them both
to account, both major parties to account. Thank you so
much for your time, Nick Leggett, Infrastructure New Zealand Chief Executive.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
For more from Kerry Wood and Mornings, listen live to
news talks that'd be from nine am weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio
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