Backyard granny flats are about to get bigger, and easier to build.
The Government's announced it's going further to ease construction regulations, allowing for an estimated 13-thousand new flats to be built without consents.
The proposed 60 square metre maximum is now increasing to 70.
Building and Construction Minister Chris Penk, says removing these barriers is critical for increasing housing supply.
Newstalk ZB's resident builder Pete Wolfkamp talks to Kerre Woodham.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Kerry Wood of Morning's podcast from
news Talk's head.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Be as promised, Pete Wolfcamp News Talks, Heidby's resident builder
joins us. Now, very good morning.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
To you, and a good morning to you, Carrie. How
are you good?
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Thank you so much for taking the time to talk
to us. And I do understand that nothing is settled yet,
is it.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Look I was listening to Chris Biship with Mike this
morning and suddenly he talked about a certificate of fitness
and I'm like, that doesn't exist to the best of
my knowledge. So I think to some degree we are
an uncharted territory.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Yeap, And nothing has been set in stone yet, has it.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
No. Obviously this is an announcement, this is where they
want to go. And for what it's worth, broadly speaking,
I think it's a great idea, or it could be
a good idea. But what will inevitably happen is once
you get into the details, you know, that's where it
will start to get much more common applicated and whether
(01:07):
that's you know that even the language from the government
has been a bit vague around who could build them.
It was authorized builders, it was suitably qualified people. Now
finally they're talking about licensed building practitioners. There's still a
requirement to build according to the building code, but then
you might not have anyone checking that it's built to
(01:27):
the building code. So as a consumer, how do you know?
There's planning regulations, the heightened relation to boundary, the site coverage,
there's connection to council services, and have they actually talked
to councils about you know what's going If council are
not issuing a resource consent and a building consent and
(01:48):
doing the inspections, why would they be interested in what
people are doing and how are they going to rate it?
How are you going to ensure that the plumbing connection
is done correctly? And you're going to end up with
all over the back law. You know, there's a lot
in it to be blunted.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Yeah, absolutely, I mean what's I can totally get the
thinking behind it, but it's almost thinking like nineteen sixty
two when plumbers and chippy's and electricians all got together
and built a batch in Parwanui when it was next
to nothing, you know, and everybody did the same job
for everybody else, so there was kind of mutual trust
(02:26):
that those days are gone.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
And also we're not building like that. And I've worked
on those houses and I know people who live in them,
and you know, they might still be standing, but they
won't be particularly energy efficient, they won't have great ventilation,
they won't be particularly draft proofed, they won't have high
standards of insulation. So what we expect from our buildings
(02:49):
today is much higher than that sort of halcyon days
of getting together with a bunch of mates and cobbling
something together on the weekend. That's not we're after. So
if what we're after is still something that is building
code compliant, and typically we rely on council to inform
the builder that what they're doing is code compliant. So
(03:10):
you're still going to have to have a certain amount
of engineering. You're certainly going to have to have a
set of plans drawn, you're going to need an LBP.
It seems like government are very much focused on the
consenting process takes too long and costs people too much,
and that's what we're looking to circumvent, which is true.
They just want to circumvent.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
It, yeah, which is true. I mean, the consenting is
there is the issue, isn't it. But then if you
accept that it's going to be a significant investment of
money and time and box ticking. But a major part
of that in terms of the consenting is removed. But
it's still not going to be, you know, just throwing
(03:52):
something up in your backyard. Do people need to get
their heads around that there will.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Still be a lot of the question is how do
you know so you know? For example, who's to say
that somebody doesn't frame something up in the backyard, clad
it wax some windows in, but they're not too worried
about doing the flashing tape around the windows. Or perhaps
they decide, well, actually, I don't think we need to
insulate this house, so I won't, and then years down
the track somebody comes to buy it. They're looking at it.
(04:20):
It's got wall lining, it's got windows, it's got cladding,
but how do you know it's got insulation in it?
So you know? There, I guess there is that certainty
that we get from building consents that says, well, at
least somebody independent has come and had a look to
make sure the fixings are as required, that there is insulation,
that there is you know, all of the fine detail
(04:41):
in the building code is there in the building now
we're potentially going to build without that. The other interesting
question that's been raised, because obviously I've been talking about
this NonStop all weekend with mates and that sort of thing,
is you know who lives in them? So is it
only someone could The original idea behind a granny flat
(05:01):
was literally that, you know, maybe sort of adult children
could build something at the back and your grandpa could
move into the back. So are the occupants of the
new property or the new dwelling do they have to
be related to the people who are there? You know,
if it's going to be a residential tendency, can you
(05:21):
do that in the building that doesn't have a consent
and therefore doesn't have a CCC?
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Yeah, yeah, you know.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
So if we're thinking, gosh, I'll add one to the
back of my place because I've got the land, bearing
in mind site coverage, bearing in mind that even today,
with being able to build up to thirty square meters,
you have to be the height of the building away
from the boundary. Undoubtedly what we'll see is people going,
oh goodie, I've got a bit of land in the backyard.
I can squeeze in fifty square meters. But I'm going
(05:51):
to build twelve hundred millimeters from the boundary, Well, that's
non compliant. Yeah, so every time you look at it,
there's a question, there's a question, there's a question. And
thus far we've seen lots and lots of sort of
broad strokes ideas around this, but the detail I think
is going to be really really complex.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
One of the stories done on the minor dwellings last
year in June of last year, ran the numbers on
how you'd rented out, you know, whether it was worth
it to throw one up in your backyard and rented out.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
Sure, So then yeah, can you rent out a building
that a new building that doesn't have a CCC? And
I have seen some case law where when it goes
to the residential tendencies to the Tendency Services rather under
the Residential Tenancies Act, the court has found actually you can't.
(06:47):
Now if you haven't got a building consent, you can't
get a CCC. Does that mean none of these properties
will be able to be rented out?
Speaker 2 (06:53):
We have our resident building Newstalk, sedb's Resident build a
Pete wolf Camp on the line trying to answer questions
around the minor dwellings that will shortly be able to
be put up in the backyard. What do you mention
this in appauling the hundreds of companies providing the tiny
houses or the cabins or the sleepouts. Wouldn't that be
(07:14):
relatively simple to get one that's already had the plans
drawn up, you know that it's insulated that it's safe.
You can just take that off and get the certificates
from plumbers and electricians one hundred percent.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
And I do actually wonder whether this might be a
reasonably straightforward way in terms of ensuring that the buildings
are built with some quality assurance. YEA, is that they go. Actually,
the only buildings you can put up without a building
consent are those manufactured by essentially off site manufacturers. And
(07:50):
I've been to a couple of these factories and I've
seen them. In the fact, I was talking to Scott
Fisher from Prefab New Zealand this morning. Yeah, and you
know we talked about the same sort of ideas. So
if you go to whether it's Houseman or any of
these companies that are making there's lots of them panel
lock up in Northland that I know, you know they're
(08:10):
doing them. They've got their checks and balances in place, right,
the building is compliant, and so if that building goes
onto your site up in the far North, then we
know that it's going to be compliant. If I drive
up there with my ute and a pile of timber
on and I cobble something together on a weekend. Yeah, okay,
I'm pretty confident that I would build to the building code,
(08:32):
but we don't know that everybody is.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
That's absolutely true. Yeah, I would say that would be
the easiest way of doing it, wouldn't it, And then
you can shut it up once.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
It's I think it's a really straightforward pathway to compliance.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Yes, Peter says, what does it matter if the building
isn't built to the code? Surely it's up to the
investment level the owner puts in and what it's worth
to sell. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:57):
Look, I've heard that argument a lot. You know. The
thing is that ultimately the building code is there to
protect the people it inhabit the building right now, whether
that's in terms of it falling down, which is a
possibility it's rare, but it might happen, or whether it's
just generally, you know, we know what happens to people
who live in poor quality housing with mold and moisture
(09:22):
and lack of ventilation, people get sick. We've had generations
of people living in those houses. Why would we want
to then set up a situation where we just perpetuate
that and continue to build poor quality housing that's going
to have a negative effect on the families that live
in them. So I don't have any time.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
For that, okay. And what about the permeable surfaces and
things and the water drainage.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
Yeah, that's a issue because you know, it's a surprising
amount of water that's collected, even off a small roof.
So if you're adding seventy square meters you're collecting it
might be as much as a couple of hundred liters
of water in a small downpour of rain. So that's
got to be directed somewhere, so it needs to go
(10:05):
into ideally held on site. Maybe you could add water tanks,
which is a great idea. Or if you're connecting to
council storm water, then obviously you're adding to systems that
are often already overwhelmed. So how council manage that? We
don't know. Similar with sewer connections, you know, do we
know that the connection has done well that we're not
(10:27):
causing some health impacts down the track by people cobbling
something together and not ensuring you know, health safety as
well as building safety.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
Yeah. Absolutely. And somebody also asks can neighbors hold up
the work? Can they oppose it?
Speaker 3 (10:46):
Well, probably not if the building complies with planning regulations,
so you know, and that will mainly be about heightened
relation to boundary. And I'm reluctant to say this, but
garden sheds, for example, could be located the height of
the garden shed away from the boundary. Now I suspect
that if you look around New Zealand, ninety nine percent
(11:08):
of them are jammed up hard against the fence. Right, Technically,
that's not supposed to be the case. So I think
what will happen? And I've already seen it with some
sort of you know, temporary dwellings, tiny homes, that sort
of thing someone's place the other day and less than
a meter from the boundary and poking up a good
met or so above a one point eight meter high
fence was a little tiny home. It was an extra
(11:31):
bedroom for an adult child. And it's right there. Now.
I know it shouldn't be. They know it should shouldn't
be Did they do anything about it? Well, it's kind
of like I can't be bothered rocking the boat. But
it'll be the planning regulations, it'll be heightened relation to
boundary that will trigger most concerns. But then you go
to council and council go, well, we didn't issue to
(11:51):
consent for it, so it's actually a civil matter. You
go and sort out yourself.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
Interesting, you're right, there's so many more questions. Pete, thank
you so much for your time. I really really appreciate it.
Pete willpay News took en Be's resident builder.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
For more from Kerrywood and Mornings, listen live to News
Talks at B from nine am weekdays, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Kerry Wood of Morning's podcast from
news Talk's head.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Be as promised, Pete Wolfcamp News Talks, Heidby's resident builder
joins us. Now, very good morning.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
To you, and a good morning to you, Carrie. How
are you good?
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Thank you so much for taking the time to talk
to us. And I do understand that nothing is settled yet,
is it.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Look I was listening to Chris Biship with Mike this
morning and suddenly he talked about a certificate of fitness
and I'm like, that doesn't exist to the best of
my knowledge. So I think to some degree we are
an uncharted territory.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Yeap, And nothing has been set in stone yet, has it.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
No. Obviously this is an announcement, this is where they
want to go. And for what it's worth, broadly speaking,
I think it's a great idea, or it could be
a good idea. But what will inevitably happen is once
you get into the details, you know, that's where it
will start to get much more common applicated and whether
(01:07):
that's you know that even the language from the government
has been a bit vague around who could build them.
It was authorized builders, it was suitably qualified people. Now
finally they're talking about licensed building practitioners. There's still a
requirement to build according to the building code, but then
you might not have anyone checking that it's built to
(01:27):
the building code. So as a consumer, how do you know?
There's planning regulations, the heightened relation to boundary, the site coverage,
there's connection to council services, and have they actually talked
to councils about you know what's going If council are
not issuing a resource consent and a building consent and
(01:48):
doing the inspections, why would they be interested in what
people are doing and how are they going to rate it?
How are you going to ensure that the plumbing connection
is done correctly? And you're going to end up with
all over the back law. You know, there's a lot
in it to be blunted.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Yeah, absolutely, I mean what's I can totally get the
thinking behind it, but it's almost thinking like nineteen sixty
two when plumbers and chippy's and electricians all got together
and built a batch in Parwanui when it was next
to nothing, you know, and everybody did the same job
for everybody else, so there was kind of mutual trust
(02:26):
that those days are gone.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
And also we're not building like that. And I've worked
on those houses and I know people who live in them,
and you know, they might still be standing, but they
won't be particularly energy efficient, they won't have great ventilation,
they won't be particularly draft proofed, they won't have high
standards of insulation. So what we expect from our buildings
(02:49):
today is much higher than that sort of halcyon days
of getting together with a bunch of mates and cobbling
something together on the weekend. That's not we're after. So
if what we're after is still something that is building
code compliant, and typically we rely on council to inform
the builder that what they're doing is code compliant. So
(03:10):
you're still going to have to have a certain amount
of engineering. You're certainly going to have to have a
set of plans drawn, you're going to need an LBP.
It seems like government are very much focused on the
consenting process takes too long and costs people too much,
and that's what we're looking to circumvent, which is true.
They just want to circumvent.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
It, yeah, which is true. I mean, the consenting is
there is the issue, isn't it. But then if you
accept that it's going to be a significant investment of
money and time and box ticking. But a major part
of that in terms of the consenting is removed. But
it's still not going to be, you know, just throwing
(03:52):
something up in your backyard. Do people need to get
their heads around that there will.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Still be a lot of the question is how do
you know so you know? For example, who's to say
that somebody doesn't frame something up in the backyard, clad
it wax some windows in, but they're not too worried
about doing the flashing tape around the windows. Or perhaps
they decide, well, actually, I don't think we need to
insulate this house, so I won't, and then years down
the track somebody comes to buy it. They're looking at it.
(04:20):
It's got wall lining, it's got windows, it's got cladding,
but how do you know it's got insulation in it?
So you know? There, I guess there is that certainty
that we get from building consents that says, well, at
least somebody independent has come and had a look to
make sure the fixings are as required, that there is insulation,
that there is you know, all of the fine detail
(04:41):
in the building code is there in the building now
we're potentially going to build without that. The other interesting
question that's been raised, because obviously I've been talking about
this NonStop all weekend with mates and that sort of thing,
is you know who lives in them? So is it
only someone could The original idea behind a granny flat
(05:01):
was literally that, you know, maybe sort of adult children
could build something at the back and your grandpa could
move into the back. So are the occupants of the
new property or the new dwelling do they have to
be related to the people who are there? You know,
if it's going to be a residential tendency, can you
(05:21):
do that in the building that doesn't have a consent
and therefore doesn't have a CCC?
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Yeah, yeah, you know.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
So if we're thinking, gosh, I'll add one to the
back of my place because I've got the land, bearing
in mind site coverage, bearing in mind that even today,
with being able to build up to thirty square meters,
you have to be the height of the building away
from the boundary. Undoubtedly what we'll see is people going,
oh goodie, I've got a bit of land in the backyard.
I can squeeze in fifty square meters. But I'm going
(05:51):
to build twelve hundred millimeters from the boundary, Well, that's
non compliant. Yeah, so every time you look at it,
there's a question, there's a question, there's a question. And
thus far we've seen lots and lots of sort of
broad strokes ideas around this, but the detail I think
is going to be really really complex.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
One of the stories done on the minor dwellings last
year in June of last year, ran the numbers on
how you'd rented out, you know, whether it was worth
it to throw one up in your backyard and rented out.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
Sure, So then yeah, can you rent out a building
that a new building that doesn't have a CCC? And
I have seen some case law where when it goes
to the residential tendencies to the Tendency Services rather under
the Residential Tenancies Act, the court has found actually you can't.
(06:47):
Now if you haven't got a building consent, you can't
get a CCC. Does that mean none of these properties
will be able to be rented out?
Speaker 2 (06:53):
We have our resident building Newstalk, sedb's Resident build a
Pete wolf Camp on the line trying to answer questions
around the minor dwellings that will shortly be able to
be put up in the backyard. What do you mention
this in appauling the hundreds of companies providing the tiny
houses or the cabins or the sleepouts. Wouldn't that be
(07:14):
relatively simple to get one that's already had the plans
drawn up, you know that it's insulated that it's safe.
You can just take that off and get the certificates
from plumbers and electricians one hundred percent.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
And I do actually wonder whether this might be a
reasonably straightforward way in terms of ensuring that the buildings
are built with some quality assurance. YEA, is that they go. Actually,
the only buildings you can put up without a building
consent are those manufactured by essentially off site manufacturers. And
(07:50):
I've been to a couple of these factories and I've
seen them. In the fact, I was talking to Scott
Fisher from Prefab New Zealand this morning. Yeah, and you
know we talked about the same sort of ideas. So
if you go to whether it's Houseman or any of
these companies that are making there's lots of them panel
lock up in Northland that I know, you know they're
(08:10):
doing them. They've got their checks and balances in place, right,
the building is compliant, and so if that building goes
onto your site up in the far North, then we
know that it's going to be compliant. If I drive
up there with my ute and a pile of timber
on and I cobble something together on a weekend. Yeah, okay,
I'm pretty confident that I would build to the building code,
(08:32):
but we don't know that everybody is.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
That's absolutely true. Yeah, I would say that would be
the easiest way of doing it, wouldn't it, And then
you can shut it up once.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
It's I think it's a really straightforward pathway to compliance.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Yes, Peter says, what does it matter if the building
isn't built to the code? Surely it's up to the
investment level the owner puts in and what it's worth
to sell. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:57):
Look, I've heard that argument a lot. You know. The
thing is that ultimately the building code is there to
protect the people it inhabit the building right now, whether
that's in terms of it falling down, which is a
possibility it's rare, but it might happen, or whether it's
just generally, you know, we know what happens to people
who live in poor quality housing with mold and moisture
(09:22):
and lack of ventilation, people get sick. We've had generations
of people living in those houses. Why would we want
to then set up a situation where we just perpetuate
that and continue to build poor quality housing that's going
to have a negative effect on the families that live
in them. So I don't have any time.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
For that, okay. And what about the permeable surfaces and
things and the water drainage.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
Yeah, that's a issue because you know, it's a surprising
amount of water that's collected, even off a small roof.
So if you're adding seventy square meters you're collecting it
might be as much as a couple of hundred liters
of water in a small downpour of rain. So that's
got to be directed somewhere, so it needs to go
(10:05):
into ideally held on site. Maybe you could add water tanks,
which is a great idea. Or if you're connecting to
council storm water, then obviously you're adding to systems that
are often already overwhelmed. So how council manage that? We
don't know. Similar with sewer connections, you know, do we
know that the connection has done well that we're not
(10:27):
causing some health impacts down the track by people cobbling
something together and not ensuring you know, health safety as
well as building safety.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
Yeah. Absolutely. And somebody also asks can neighbors hold up
the work? Can they oppose it?
Speaker 3 (10:46):
Well, probably not if the building complies with planning regulations,
so you know, and that will mainly be about heightened
relation to boundary. And I'm reluctant to say this, but
garden sheds, for example, could be located the height of
the garden shed away from the boundary. Now I suspect
that if you look around New Zealand, ninety nine percent
(11:08):
of them are jammed up hard against the fence. Right, Technically,
that's not supposed to be the case. So I think
what will happen? And I've already seen it with some
sort of you know, temporary dwellings, tiny homes, that sort
of thing someone's place the other day and less than
a meter from the boundary and poking up a good
met or so above a one point eight meter high
fence was a little tiny home. It was an extra
(11:31):
bedroom for an adult child. And it's right there. Now.
I know it shouldn't be. They know it should shouldn't
be Did they do anything about it? Well, it's kind
of like I can't be bothered rocking the boat. But
it'll be the planning regulations, it'll be heightened relation to
boundary that will trigger most concerns. But then you go
to council and council go, well, we didn't issue to
(11:51):
consent for it, so it's actually a civil matter. You
go and sort out yourself.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
Interesting, you're right, there's so many more questions. Pete, thank
you so much for your time. I really really appreciate it.
Pete willpay News took en Be's resident builder.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
For more from Kerrywood and Mornings, listen live to News
Talks at B from nine am weekdays, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio
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