March 12, 2025 • 7 mins
Postal voting in local elections could be a thing of the past, if Local Government New Zealand gets its way.
A report from the organisation is calling on the Government to move to in-person voting booths in council elections, saying the current postal voting system is becoming untenable.
Nelson Mayor Nick Smith joined the Afternoons team to discuss.
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from Newstalk ZEDB. Follow this
and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Nock.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
What is that percentage in local body elections like at
the moment the voting percentage.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Oh, it's pretty damn allful. We're down to about forty percent.
It's been declining for more than thirty years. When I
first stood for local government in the nineteen eighties, it
was at about sixty percent. And the other important comparison
is actually New Zealanders have a damn good track record
and their participation in parliamentary elections. We're up at eighty percent.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
What's the logic of polling booths over postal voting that's
being suggested.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Well, the first thing is that posted stuffed. That is
that the numbers have just collapsed by about ninety percent.
We've got a significant number of households that either don't
have a letterbox or don't use it, and of course
we're seeing them remove all of postboxes. Even since we
started the work, there's least frequent mail services and so
(01:12):
we're just simply saying we've got to find an alternative.
For about twenty years, governments, both national and labor and
quite a few councils have said, oh gee, the answer
is to move to e voting, and despite promising to
do it, nobody has. And the reason is the moment
you get into the detail, they just cannot get on
top of the security problems. The New Zealand Intelligence Service
(01:34):
has been quite upfront about that. In fact, things around
cyber attacks have actually got worse, not better, and there
are authoritarian regimes in the world that are aimed at
discredited at undermining our democracy. It just makes e voting
too risky and that really only leaves you with the
(01:54):
tried and true method that we use for our parliamentary elections.
And the great thing about that is that we know
it works, and it's also something that people are very
familiar with that would work by people having access to
following booth to two weeks, that the polling booths would
be in those places that people frequent, supermarkets, in shopping malls,
(02:16):
in libraries, and that it is as similar as possible
to what happens at our general elections.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
Real me seems to work though with some government you know,
I've just been involved in using ME for some government
admin that I had to do so why isn't it
good enough for voting. If it's good enough for a
kids signing up for student loans or passports.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Well, the things with things likes of financial transactions is
if you get it wrong, at least it can in
future be undone. That's not true for voting. And of
course it's also really important and essential to the voting
system that it is a secret ballot and so if
somehow your vote was changed, you'd never ever know. Now
(03:01):
it is a matter of record that there are cybersecurity
attacks that have occurred on eleectoral systems, and what the experts,
including the New Zealand soissay is it's just too risky.
Speaker 4 (03:14):
So going back to the voting both booth system, do
you envision it or does the report envision it exactly?
Like how we have the general Body that it would
take place on a Saturday, that there'd be multiple booths around,
that there would be a bit of hype behind it
to remind people it's on and hopefully get them into
that booth.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Yes, exactly. And what's more, we want to recruit you know,
the orange man and his dog that's used by the
Electoral Commission. What we do at the moment is you
have seventy eight councils all doing their ad hot campaigns
to get out and vote. They only spend about forty
five cents per voter. The Electoral Commission spends on average
four dollars a voter with those campaigns, with the Orange
(03:53):
man and dog, you get what you pay for. We
shouldn't be surprised that we get such a pathetic result
in local elections when the campaigns poorly coordinate that we
spend very little on it. And I do think that
New Zealanders understand the message they get from the orange
maor and the dog, and we n it works.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
So when you say polling booths and supermarkets, they're going
to be have to be manned, aren't they, And that'll
get pretty.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Exchens as they are, yeah, just as they are for
general elections. So effectively, what we're saying is, look, the
Electoral Commission hops out once every three years. They've got
all the infrastructure there. Let's just roll them out when
we do the local elections and make it as similar
as possible. In our report, we also think it would
be sensible for us to move to a four year term.
Our perfect outcome would be for both Parliament and councils
(04:38):
to move to a four year term. The public has
an election once every two years and it alternates between
a local and a national election. Of course, if there
was a change to four years, it would need to
be by referendum. Parliament last week voted for a bill
to do just that. We're just asking that if you're
going to move to four year terms with the referendum
for Parliament, that you do so for councils as well.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
We're talking to local government New Zealand Electoral Reformed Chair
and Nelson Mayor Nick Smith. Is the problem that people
just don't care and it's too complicated. Who has time
to research all the candidates? You know how busy people
are these days. I mean, you know, I'm interested in politics,
but when I go into when I'm voting and it
(05:22):
arrives in the mail, I look down. I go, I've
got no idea, absolutely no idea. And you know in
a general election it's divided into parties. You go, well,
this person is generally in the area I want to vote,
and that that can happen. You can't that there is
sort of allegiances there. But is it just too complicated
for people.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
I think your reflections are exactly what we've found in
our research and work, and that is, even if you
do the changes we're proposing, we need to be careful
to keep the voting system sensible. If you say to
a vote a look, there's forty candidates, go pick five
of them, they're just going to be overwhelmed and not bother.
We do think there's an opportunity to use modern technology,
(06:02):
So we're suggesting in the report that people and there
be a website of which you can actually watch a
short video with suggestives three minutes and that you know,
I've actually seen people. Is actually a bit more interesting
than just one hundred and fifty words statement. The last
that we would add in that area is that there
is a job to do to try and ensure that
people have got good information about candidates, and the report's
(06:24):
got some ideas on that.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
Yeah, will people soon and complain a lot in the
in the as they do with who gets in, but
don't necessarily take the effort to learn who's going and
vote on it. Is there any finally, is there any
talk of compulsory voting? Will that ever be a thing
in New Zealand? As it is in Australia.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Oh well, they do have compulsory voting in Australia, but
they come from convict stock and they probably need something
that's stronger to keep them in line. I think it
would be a mistake to go all the way to
compulsory voting. In the New Zealand legal system, it is
compulsory to be on the roll, but not to the vote,
and we're not recommending change to that.
Speaker 4 (06:57):
Very interesting and Nick, thank you very much for your time,
really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Thank you for more from News Talks. The'd be listen
live on air or online and keep our shows with
you wherever you go with our podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to a podcast from Newstalk ZEDB. Follow this
and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Nock.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
What is that percentage in local body elections like at
the moment the voting percentage.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Oh, it's pretty damn allful. We're down to about forty percent.
It's been declining for more than thirty years. When I
first stood for local government in the nineteen eighties, it
was at about sixty percent. And the other important comparison
is actually New Zealanders have a damn good track record
and their participation in parliamentary elections. We're up at eighty percent.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
What's the logic of polling booths over postal voting that's
being suggested.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Well, the first thing is that posted stuffed. That is
that the numbers have just collapsed by about ninety percent.
We've got a significant number of households that either don't
have a letterbox or don't use it, and of course
we're seeing them remove all of postboxes. Even since we
started the work, there's least frequent mail services and so
(01:12):
we're just simply saying we've got to find an alternative.
For about twenty years, governments, both national and labor and
quite a few councils have said, oh gee, the answer
is to move to e voting, and despite promising to
do it, nobody has. And the reason is the moment
you get into the detail, they just cannot get on
top of the security problems. The New Zealand Intelligence Service
(01:34):
has been quite upfront about that. In fact, things around
cyber attacks have actually got worse, not better, and there
are authoritarian regimes in the world that are aimed at
discredited at undermining our democracy. It just makes e voting
too risky and that really only leaves you with the
(01:54):
tried and true method that we use for our parliamentary elections.
And the great thing about that is that we know
it works, and it's also something that people are very
familiar with that would work by people having access to
following booth to two weeks, that the polling booths would
be in those places that people frequent, supermarkets, in shopping malls,
(02:16):
in libraries, and that it is as similar as possible
to what happens at our general elections.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
Real me seems to work though with some government you know,
I've just been involved in using ME for some government
admin that I had to do so why isn't it
good enough for voting. If it's good enough for a
kids signing up for student loans or passports.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Well, the things with things likes of financial transactions is
if you get it wrong, at least it can in
future be undone. That's not true for voting. And of
course it's also really important and essential to the voting
system that it is a secret ballot and so if
somehow your vote was changed, you'd never ever know. Now
(03:01):
it is a matter of record that there are cybersecurity
attacks that have occurred on eleectoral systems, and what the experts,
including the New Zealand soissay is it's just too risky.
Speaker 4 (03:14):
So going back to the voting both booth system, do
you envision it or does the report envision it exactly?
Like how we have the general Body that it would
take place on a Saturday, that there'd be multiple booths around,
that there would be a bit of hype behind it
to remind people it's on and hopefully get them into
that booth.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Yes, exactly. And what's more, we want to recruit you know,
the orange man and his dog that's used by the
Electoral Commission. What we do at the moment is you
have seventy eight councils all doing their ad hot campaigns
to get out and vote. They only spend about forty
five cents per voter. The Electoral Commission spends on average
four dollars a voter with those campaigns, with the Orange
(03:53):
man and dog, you get what you pay for. We
shouldn't be surprised that we get such a pathetic result
in local elections when the campaigns poorly coordinate that we
spend very little on it. And I do think that
New Zealanders understand the message they get from the orange
maor and the dog, and we n it works.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
So when you say polling booths and supermarkets, they're going
to be have to be manned, aren't they, And that'll
get pretty.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Exchens as they are, yeah, just as they are for
general elections. So effectively, what we're saying is, look, the
Electoral Commission hops out once every three years. They've got
all the infrastructure there. Let's just roll them out when
we do the local elections and make it as similar
as possible. In our report, we also think it would
be sensible for us to move to a four year term.
Our perfect outcome would be for both Parliament and councils
(04:38):
to move to a four year term. The public has
an election once every two years and it alternates between
a local and a national election. Of course, if there
was a change to four years, it would need to
be by referendum. Parliament last week voted for a bill
to do just that. We're just asking that if you're
going to move to four year terms with the referendum
for Parliament, that you do so for councils as well.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
We're talking to local government New Zealand Electoral Reformed Chair
and Nelson Mayor Nick Smith. Is the problem that people
just don't care and it's too complicated. Who has time
to research all the candidates? You know how busy people
are these days. I mean, you know, I'm interested in politics,
but when I go into when I'm voting and it
(05:22):
arrives in the mail, I look down. I go, I've
got no idea, absolutely no idea. And you know in
a general election it's divided into parties. You go, well,
this person is generally in the area I want to vote,
and that that can happen. You can't that there is
sort of allegiances there. But is it just too complicated
for people.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
I think your reflections are exactly what we've found in
our research and work, and that is, even if you
do the changes we're proposing, we need to be careful
to keep the voting system sensible. If you say to
a vote a look, there's forty candidates, go pick five
of them, they're just going to be overwhelmed and not bother.
We do think there's an opportunity to use modern technology,
(06:02):
So we're suggesting in the report that people and there
be a website of which you can actually watch a
short video with suggestives three minutes and that you know,
I've actually seen people. Is actually a bit more interesting
than just one hundred and fifty words statement. The last
that we would add in that area is that there
is a job to do to try and ensure that
people have got good information about candidates, and the report's
(06:24):
got some ideas on that.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
Yeah, will people soon and complain a lot in the
in the as they do with who gets in, but
don't necessarily take the effort to learn who's going and
vote on it. Is there any finally, is there any
talk of compulsory voting? Will that ever be a thing
in New Zealand? As it is in Australia.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Oh well, they do have compulsory voting in Australia, but
they come from convict stock and they probably need something
that's stronger to keep them in line. I think it
would be a mistake to go all the way to
compulsory voting. In the New Zealand legal system, it is
compulsory to be on the roll, but not to the vote,
and we're not recommending change to that.
Speaker 4 (06:57):
Very interesting and Nick, thank you very much for your time,
really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Thank you for more from News Talks. The'd be listen
live on air or online and keep our shows with
you wherever you go with our podcast on iHeartRadio.
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