July 10, 2024 • 32 mins
Ockahm Award-winning author of Lioness, Emily Perkins, shares her best and worst money stories with Liam Dann.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hi, I'm Liam Dan, New Zealand Herald Business Editor at Large,
and welcome to this episode of Money Talks. This is
a podcast about money, but we're not going to tell
you how to get rich, and we're not going to
try and pick the next interest rate move. In this series,
I'll be talking to interesting New Zealanders about how money
has shaped their lives and what they've learned over the years.
(00:28):
For today's podcast, I'm joined by celebrated author and recent
winner of the Ockham Book Awards, Emily Perkins Cura. Emily,
Welcome to Money Talks.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Caldern, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Firstly, congratulations on winning the prize for fiction at the
Okham Awards for Lions. How did you getting the big
prize feel?
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Thanks?
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Look really what surprised me? I mean, prizes are strange
because of course you don't really put yourself forward for
them or right with having them in mind, and their
honestly aren't that many of them in New Zealand either,
So there's quite a bit of tension around it, I
guess for you know, the writing community.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Gen publishers get really excited and.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
Yeah, and I've got to say it's like I really
do feel like it is another chance for books to
get a bit more attention and a bit more publicity
and a bit more of people talking about them, which
is always fantastic. And then yeah, I was just blown away.
Look there was an amazing short list of books, amazing
long list of books. It was a really good year
(01:35):
for New Zealand publishing. And yeah, I was thrilled and
really surprised. And it does mean money and these sort
of windfalls are kind of are pretty rare in the
book world.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
So yeah, absolutely there's a chance to write some more.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
It's definitely a chance to write some more. It's a
chance just to keep going. I mean, it's affirmation kind
of psychologically and MATERI really and I believe you had
the head of the of the overall sponsors.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
From Welckholm, Mark Todd.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Yes, yeah, you had interesting guys. Yeah, and there's a lot.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
I mean the award I won was the Jen med
Acorn Prize for Fiction, so you know it comes with
some very generous backing from all involved.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Yeah. Look, I really enjoyed Liones. Just finished it last
night actually, and it is a triumph for me because
I don't read a lot of novels these days. My
wife already had it, obviously, but I become increasingly either
nonfiction or stuck on my phone and hard hard to
finish books. But look, I thought it was interesting. Obviously,
there's some themes there about self discovery and all that
(02:42):
sort of stuff in midlife crisis. But for this podcast,
there was some quite big themes there around money and
class and you know that that whole world of finance
and property development and all that sort of stuff. I
just wondered how you came to sort of settle on
that as the for this novel, and you know what
(03:02):
your influence in inspiration was there.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
Yeah, I think I always find money a really interesting
subject for fiction and for drama. There's an American writer
who I really admire called Grace Paley, and one of
the things that she said about writing was that every
story should include the facts of blood and money. And
you know, she was meaning to elaborate on that blood
(03:29):
ass in humanity, how we relate to each other, relationships, family,
that kind of thing, and money being the sort of
practical thing that activates it all.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
And well, it's not the.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
Only thing that activates obviously, but it's something that influences
relationships quite a lot. And you know, I think the
way that money can be a preoccupant, whether you've got
you know, not enough or.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
You've got too much. You know, there's always sort.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Of interesting stories around that. So as a p engine,
I think it's really really interesting. So I've written about
it having its kind of in the background in the past,
but I was particularly interested with Lioness in writing about
the world where people are incredibly comfortable and from the
point of view of somebody who has jumped class in
(04:19):
a way. So the narrator, Torase Thorn, you know, came
from you know, really humble sort of circumstances in her
young life, and then by marrying into money as a
very young woman, she kind of immediately became part of
this other sort of fairly rarefied world. So there was
(04:41):
sort of character reasons I wanted to explore it in
terms of who she was and whose sense of identity,
But also I think it's just a fascinating backdrop. I
mean that idea of we're always going to be drawn
to stories about the unhappy.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
Rich, yeh. I mean, I've seen a lot of it,
and it rang true from what I've seen outside in
and oh in terms of you know, I covered the
global financial crisis and all the properly developers and finance
companies going over there's a certain I guess, a kind
of person that makes money central and then that the
world of trusts and lawyers and things takes over. And
(05:17):
I noticed you you referenced a book by Eldred Gregg.
What was the sort of research you did around that world.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
Well, one of the primary sources was this wonderful book
by Stephen Aldred Gregg called The Rich, and.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
It's a New Zealand history. I'd written a draft already
before I.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
Found that book, but it was very sort of affirming
in terms of some of the kinds of different flavors
of wealth.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
You know.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
He talks about the distinction between the kind of landed class,
landed gentry class, many of who've got deep origins and
sort of arriving here in stealing land, you know, coming
from other parts of the world and getting a foothold here,
or being part of a bigger sort of imperial or
colonial kind of global movement, like lots of families that
(06:07):
have also got I guess, kind of colonial connections in
other parts of the world.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
As well, So that was sort of one tranch.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
And then the idea of a more manufacturing or sort
of merchant class, just the sort of different social distinctions
that those kinds of wealth generate. So that was interesting
character logically as well. And then I went to I'm
not sure if it's still running, but there was a
fantastic thing called the Ford Film Festival, I think, which
(06:39):
was on in Auckland.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
And my main character is married to a guy who's.
Speaker 3 (06:45):
A property developer, but in an early draft of the
novel he was in more in finance, like a hedge
fund manager or something like that, And so I was
investigating different kinds of sort of pools of money and
different sorts of forcelant activity around these different territories. And
then I settled a bit later on and being a
(07:07):
property developer. So yeah, there was just a fair bit
of reading.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
Yeah, sure, look, we better jump back a bit and
I'll ask you about your relationship with money, I guess.
So one of the things I like to ask is
what your first memory of money is in terms of
actually remembering having it in your hand or having it
influence your world.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
Yeah, I remember the sort of physical sensory aspects of
it really strongly, like what a two cent piece felt like,
and a two cent piece compared to a one cent
piece and a five cent piece, and the different colors,
the different metals, the different shininess, the different images. You know.
I think the coal fire on the two cents and
(07:48):
the tutara on the five cents just as objects, those
coins really fascinating to me, and I think they would
have always meant sweets. I was very interested in sweets
and sort of junk food in general, and the kind
of thing that we didn't much go in for in
(08:08):
my house, and so any opportunity I got where I
got some pocket money or whatever it was, that was
what it was going to.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
It's interesting. If there's one theme through this podcast that
just just with everyone I talked to, it's that they
went off down to the dairy, you know, to get
sweets with the pocket money.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
Well, I mean, there was something I think when you
were little as well. There is just something so magical
about that idea of the little white paper bag that's
got the lollymexentis or you know, a k bar or
a buzz bar, all those things that you could spin
out and make last for ages. So absolutely, that's what
money equaled to me, was the opportunity to eat sweets
(08:47):
and then later on chippies and a bit later on cigarettes.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
But I was giving my own money I had, well
mostly I was. I mean by that time I sort
of heard a paper round and stuff like that.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
So was that the first part time job?
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (09:02):
Like yeah, I had a weird kind of history because
my mother and sister and I were cast in a
few TV commercials when we were when my sister and
I were really young, and so really my first experience
of earning money was when I was sort of like
seven or eight, and for that era, it was a
(09:25):
lot of money. Like I was a weird you know,
sort of lump sum for a day's work, and we
were traveling when I was about nine and ten for
my dad's work. But we sort of went around lots
of other places and stayed with family and went to
you know, like really quite a big trip for those days.
(09:45):
This was like nineteen seventy nine or eighty.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
And the money that we've made doing ads contributed to that.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
So there was kind of different money, you know, big money,
but sort of more set aside, which.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
Was sort of this story of me with money for
a little while, it was either these you know, strange
kind of amounts or then something like I had a
shared paper around, I did lots of babysitting. I would
do a friend and I did sort of invented a
summer job for ourselves where we looked after other people's
(10:22):
children and did a kind of quote quote art club
with them, you know, student jobs, jobs, painting people's shards,
that kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
And then when I.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
Left school when I was fifteen to do a job
in a drama program that was made by TV and Z,
which was a year's work, and that was again sort
of not at the sort of being paid in the.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Commercial rates end of the spectrum, but.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
It was still I mean, it was like a lot
of money for a sixteen year old to be earning.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Was that straight out of school or did you leave
school to do that?
Speaker 3 (10:57):
Well, I had got my EUI and I left school
to do it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Yeah, And.
Speaker 3 (11:04):
So that was I was sort of swinging between this
kind of like yeah, whatever a paper a round pays.
And you know, once I started, once I was earning
the TV money, my mother had me pay rent at home,
and you know, I mean I yeah, it was just
(11:25):
it was just strange because it was sort of like
then it was back to waitressing.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Or yeah, and it was a growing up. It sounds
like you moved around a bit like born in christ Church,
but you grew up in Auckland and Wellington, is that right?
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Yeah, well we lived.
Speaker 3 (11:38):
We moved from christ Church to Auckland when I was
just a baby, and then we moved to Wellington when
I was eleven, and then I sort of bounced up
and down a bit between the two and my kind
of later teens in early twenties.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
And do you remember, I mean, do you remember much
about money in the widest sense of the time, either
with the family and also you know that's growing up
through pretty similar to me, through that radical change in
the early eighties and nineteen eighty four and all that
sort of stuff.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
I mean, we you know, I had had a middle
class upbringing. I mean it was like really you know,
materially comfortable, and I remember that this sort of change
of mood that seemed to come in with the eighties
as well. And then I remember, I mean it was
a bit later, but I do remember vividly the Employment
(12:28):
Contracts Act and you know that whole I remember, sort
of I think I.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
Was busting other unions.
Speaker 3 (12:34):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, all of that just being this sense
that there was a lot of societal change that was
going on around money and employment and rights and class
and how these things were all sort of into interwoven
to affect a sense of, you know, this sort of
(12:55):
sense of society and what society here was.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
As a student, and I guess as a high school student,
were You're always interested in English, I guess, you know,
and was writing always on the cards. I see that.
You know, you sort of fell into that acting almost
out of school, and that could have gone that way.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
Yeah, I mean because after I did that TV show,
went to toy Pacardi, went to drama school and pursued
that for a little while. But I had been kind
of writing as well, and I loved English at school,
English and all those sorts of classics, those kind of subjects.
So I always did want to work in the arts
in some way. And I suppose because early on I
(13:39):
had quite a bit of luck with getting acting jobs,
that was the thing I was drawn to initially.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
Was there ever a sense of concern either from your
parents or even yourself, you know, just that you know,
it's obviously if you're thinking about, you know, financial security,
the arts is kind of risky certainly, you know, ups
and downs, potential for great success, but I guess neither
acting or writing are necessarily IM going to be financially guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
No, that's right.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
I don't think I thought very long term at all
in that regard, and my parents were pretty encouraging. I mean,
they would have probably really liked me to have a
more steady backup option, but they certainly never said, oh,
you know, don't do this. I mean, again, it's funny
the different effects of class because we think about it
(14:31):
through the money lens.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
But I do think one of the things that can.
Speaker 3 (14:35):
Be the case was why I believe we should talk
about it more and why I'm interested in writing about
it and talking to you about it today. There's a
kind of thing about having a middle class or upper
middle class, you know, sort of background where you're encouraged
(14:56):
to expect that you can do things. You know, it's
a sort of mindset as much as anything. And so
I think in that sense, I was incredibly privileged. Like
I just think that that's the sort of aspect of
class privilege that it's good for us to be more
conscious about because it's not you know, there's not a
(15:18):
kind of equality around that.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Yeah, I mean, it would be nice to think we
were expanding that, but it's possible it's going the other way.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
I mean that it's right.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
People are more concerning you to get a house, for example,
kids have got to be thinking earlier about how they're
going to pay get the deposit and pay the mortgage
and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
Yeah, and look, I've got kids who around that kind
of age group now of late teens and early twenties,
and it's just, you know, you just don't know where
to start. You really don't know where to start thinking
about that. So I think there's a way in which
I was able to sort of feel confident pursuing a
life in the arts, partly because the arts in general
(15:56):
were a big part of my childhood and upbringing, in
a sort of valued in my childhood and in my education.
But also but yeah, because there was this sort of
privileged idea that what you wanted to do you could
probably make work, you know, the sort of sense that yeah,
(16:17):
just a sort of confidence, and you know, of course
there were times when it was really harder.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
And I lived in London from.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
My mid twenties to my mid thirties, and you know
that was also like often really financially challenging, but we
were always arouse, always around other people who are doing
similar things.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
So it's kind of become part of a world.
Speaker 3 (16:40):
Where that's that precarity is the norm, unfortunately.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
And you sort of have found a way through all
those years, and I guess now to some extent as well,
to sort of keep writing, but also working in the
publishing industry teaching those sort of things to keep some
steady income as well as writing. Is that a difficult it?
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Yeah, I think so.
Speaker 3 (17:02):
And I've sort of come and gone from doing freelance
work to having changes of doing full time work, and
I've just sort of cobbled it together again, not with
any great plan or much degree of kind of foresight
or or yeah the future, it's all been a bit accidental.
(17:23):
I mean, it's sort of I would say it's worked
out over the years, but there've definitely been times when
I haven't got my own writing done, in my own
projects finished, because I've been you know, it's been more
important to have a full time job and to be
secure in that way for my family, and you know,
when the kids were younger particularly, so there are ways
(17:45):
so much as hard to write or make kind of
different sorts of work and have full time employment. There's
all kinds of like C and Z. You know, I
did a study crab New Zealand, like a couple of
years ago. I don't know if you want any fats
and figures. Sure, I think this is from a study
(18:05):
that creat New Zealand did with Zen on air and
conducted by an organization called Kantar Public. And this is
a couple of years ago. Creative professionals median income in
New Zealand is thirty seven thousand dollars compared to the
median of sixty one eight hundred dollars for salary and waging.
So that sort of you know, it goes on from
(18:27):
there in the median income from creative pursuits alone, like
if you're not supplementing, your income is nineteen five hundred
dollars a year, and then that shrinks if you're a woman,
and that shrinks again if you're a deaf or disabled artist.
So it's like there are Yeah, it's very useful to
have these facts.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
I think and I.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Mean the idea that you have to say, I mean,
it's sort of there's almost a romantic idea that you
almost have to sacrifice everything else to be, especially a
novelist or a poet or something like that. I mean,
did you sort of always push back against that of it?
Speaker 3 (19:03):
Yeah? I do push back against that because I feel
like that sort of Yeah, the idea of the starving
artist and the garrett that particular cliche.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
I mean, it just doesn't serve the artist, you know.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
And obviously we're coming into a time which is even
more complicated by the different ways that you know, arts
get sort of consumed and commodified and you know, the
sort of dreaded word content that gets banded around, the
kind of reduction of a lot of artistic practice to
this concept of content.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
And you know, then you've.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
Got those sorts of ideas that there are plenty of
other people making money out of, you know, artists' works.
I'm thinking about musicians and sort of platforms where their
work might be accessed. It's yeah, there's enormous inequality in
the arts in in terms of you know, how people
(20:03):
get paid and yeah, and certainly any kind of security
around that and Look, I'm incredibly lucky. I'm writing full
time at the moment, and I'm well aware that I'm
in a really particularly privileged position in New Zealand terms being.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
Able to do that right now.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
And I don't know if that's going to always be
the case, but the factors, I can do it at
the moment, and that's yeah, that's a rare thing. So
I'm well aware that I'm speaking from a particularly fortunate
position as well.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
Yeah, well, you work to get there, I mean, but
it's yeah, no.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
It's not like it's just sort of gets you know.
I don't doubt that, and I'm i guess sort of
comparatively with other fields as well. It's got its challenges,
but I just mean, across the arts in general, there
are people who are you know, who are pursuing it
against great odds, and I really admire that.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
I wish that they were.
Speaker 3 (21:03):
Sorry, while I'm on Maine, but this is where I
do think that it would be great to investigate the
idea of a universal basic income, or certainly some kind
of like income for artists. That would mean that there
were we were able to experience arts made by practitioners
(21:25):
from you know, from any walk of life, rather than
it being something that becomes only available to people who
can afford to pursue it.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
Yeah, and then to survive on it. There is an
element of not so much lack or whatever. But you know,
it's very difficult if you're producing only for the New
Zealand market. Did you feel you know, you've you've presumably
got more reach now and does that help because you know,
I've noticed with book publishing in particular, the New Zealand
market is so small, and it's probably the same with
music and bands and things. As soon as you find
(21:56):
a niche outside of New Zealand, it's got more potential financially,
I guess.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Yeah, that's absolutely true.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
And I think because I first started publishing when I
was living in the UK, so I've always had this
sort of double thing where my books have come out
there and here at the same time. And I mean,
even late Australia is just a much bigger market than
New Zealand, so if you can get work going over.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
There, then that's also a really good thing.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
It's definitely hard and small here and that's another reason
why I just believe that state support for the arts
is necessary if we're going to have any kind of
arts culture at all.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Yeah, and actually exporting it to you know, to help
export it to the world. I guess that's right. Have
you worked with people around adapting your work into film, television,
that kind of thing?
Speaker 3 (22:49):
Oh, yeah, I have, so that various things have kind
of come and gone in terms of rights over the years.
And then yeah, there's the rights for Lions have been
picked up, so that's really great, but there's you know,
there's sort of nothing to say about it until it's.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
A sure yeah hopefully fingers crossed. Yeah, I mean a
complicated kind of process.
Speaker 3 (23:11):
Yeah. Yeah, and it's a it's a long process. So
it's wonderful. I think that's one thing that I've got
to by the sort of the stage in my career
is that I celebrate every small, little moment because you
never know if it's going to lead to anything else,
and it's just like worth celebrating in and of itself.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
So yeah, I'm thrilled that the rights have been picked up.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
Yeah, but New Zealand, you know, New Zealand arts generally
isn't a place where you can set a story like Lions.
You know, it's a New Zealand story in terms of setting,
a location and some of the language. But it's also
a fairly well modern Western universal story as well, so
the world can deal with New Zealand as a backdrop
and not be too thrown by that.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
I guess, yeah, absolutely, And I think you can see
that across the success of you know, I mean to say,
a recent example of the tea series After the Party.
You know, it's just done brilliantly in Australia, it's been
winning prizes in France. It's looking to get a miniscota
show in the UK later this year. So something can
be I think it's so true of the arts in
(24:14):
general that something can be very specific to the place
that it comes from and to its location, but if
it pays close enough.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
Attention to that, then they're unleashes.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
Off on a kind of universality that people can connect
with from anywhere.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
I've got a few quick fire money questions that we
throw at guests. One of them would be, what's the
poorest you've ever been?
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Probably just in overdrivet deepest in debt thing?
Speaker 3 (24:49):
Well, I suppose, well, deepest in debt would be having
a mortgage. I mean, yeah, having a mortgage. On how
we bought our first flat when we're living in the UK,
and it was actually more achievable there because you could
have like a zero deposit, like a tiny deposit. Interest
(25:12):
rates were much lower than they were here at the time,
and you could get interest only mortgages. So that was
sort of how we got a foothold. And then yeah,
I don't know whatever, whenever my mortgage is at its biggest,
the deepest and debt sure.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
And sort of the flip side of that is, do
you recall the time when you felt like, Okay, you're
comfortable enough now, and what would be the most indulgent
purchase you can remember having made?
Speaker 3 (25:38):
I think that my most indulgent spending of money would
be travel.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Definitely.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
Someone who sort of cares more about money for experiences
rather than things, would you say.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
Well, I would.
Speaker 3 (25:50):
I mean, I do also like my things. And this
is where you know, sort of coming from and writing line,
It's like, I'm examining the sort of soul of this
woman who who's married into money and found that the
nice things that she surrounded herself with are a bit
of a trap and they're kind of preventing her from
seeing other kinds of ways of living and really being
(26:12):
more true to herself. But I didn't want to judge
that either, because I can understand why nice things sort
of become talismanic to her. And when I say nice things,
I mean you could be talking about something from something
very very small that is just a purely you know,
an object that kind of gives you some sort of
comfort or sense of beauty, to something much bigger. So yeah,
(26:38):
I would find it hard to get rid of my
creature comforts for sure. But I mean I think it's
really about you don't need to keep on crowing those
things at all. I believe her in a bit of
concept of enoughism, and that was another thing I wanted
to investigate with the book. You know, why is it
that people don't just stop when they've got enough?
Speaker 2 (27:01):
Why not?
Speaker 3 (27:01):
It's an absolute mystery to me, in an unanswerable question.
So I was really keen to explore that through those characters.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
Yeah, I mean, some of the characters do challenge that
whole idea of I guess that lifestyle, which is Teresa's
shops and things that is sold that kind of traps
people into the next designer thing. You know, A nice
thing about a novel I guess is that you can
have an argument with yourself via different characters.
Speaker 3 (27:27):
Liam, That is perfectly put. I mean, that's exactly what
I think that fiction and drama can do is sort
of have these arguments and just activate them and have
them be alive and complicated and not you know, not
be black and white, not have to come down on
a side of right or wrong, but just sort of
really exploring the complexity of the issues. I mean, hopefully
(27:49):
you know, through a fun and entertaining story that's going
to carry you along in that sense as well. Yeah,
So those sorts of different not any kind of a
is to the material world. We're a big part of
the engine of the writing for me.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
Sure. I mean one of the questions I always ask
on this and it sort of goes to that what
you're saying about why people keep doing it is, you know,
is making money important to you or is it more
of a byproduct of success?
Speaker 2 (28:17):
It's a byproduct.
Speaker 3 (28:19):
I mean, I think it's where we do live in
a world where money is seen as a marker of success,
and we know how really misconstrued that can be. You know,
it's just like absolutely, you know, that's the sort of
it's really dangerous to make that correlation, I think. But
I think examining what you mean by success is something
(28:39):
that you have to do and keep doing, you know,
through your life in various different ways. And for me, yeah,
creative success is not to do with money. It's it's
not about that, I mean.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
And I guess you know that makes sense. I'm asking
that question of a novelist and people might expect that answer,
but I would say, it's interesting is I've asked it
of you know, property developers and basically billionaires, multi millionaires,
and they all say the same thing. They all say
money is not important. It's always you know, whether it's
structuring the perfect business deal or you know, just their
(29:16):
incredible goal set is some of these people. And it
just so happens that if you're in property development or finance,
that money is a big, bry product of that success.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
And so well, I'd say, then if it's not the
point of the success, and all the more reason to
spread it.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
Around fair enough.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
It's a great opportunity for them to do that.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
I sometimes ask people what their favorite song about money
is on this podcast. I guess I could ask that,
but I wonder if you do, you have a favorite
book that touches on wealth and money.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
Oh well, I mean I would really recommend this book,
the Steven Alder.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
Yeah, I'm interested in that.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
Actually, it's very entertainingly written, and you know it's.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
It's just called the Rich. It's called the Rich. I
think a social history of New Zealand. Perhaps I might
get that slightly wrong, but yeah, it goes up to
the nineties. I think that's about as far as it goes.
And obviously things have changed even more since then, but
he's certainly got the trajectory that has led us to
(30:18):
where we currently are.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
Yeah, for sure. One last question. Really, you know this
is sort of a big social economic question, but what
we sort of ask is, if we could make you
Prime Minister for the day and give you control of
the economy and society for a day, is there some
policy that you would put at the top of the
list that you would like to enact to really address
(30:42):
equity in social and economic inequality.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
Look, I know it's a hard one to work out
because there are lots of different kind of approaches and
complexities that would come out of it, But I would
go for a ubi that would probably be the first
thing I do. Maybe also, I'd be looking at different
ways of honoring to tilty and you know, pushing some
(31:08):
more policies through in that regard. And I think those
two things hand in hand would do us an enormous
amount of good. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
I mean, I was going to ask, would you like
to see more government investment in the arts? But I
guess if you had that universal basic income, it might
not have to be doled out in the same way.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
It might look different the way it comes through.
Speaker 3 (31:29):
And yeah, you'd need a lot of very good minds
working on it and just fine tuning it, and you know,
it might take a few different goals to get it right,
but I think it would be much more fair than
the way things are now.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
Cool.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
Well, that's it from us. Thank you very much Emily
Perkins for talking to us for.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
Money Talks, Thanks for having me on.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
Thanks for listening to this episode of Money Talks. If
you want to get in touch, drop me a line
Liam dot Dan at nzmeed dot co dot nz and
you can read more from me at insidherld dot co
dot INZID. Thanks to my producer Ethan Sills and sound
engineer Leanne mc donald. Follow Money talks on iHeartRadio or
(32:11):
wherever you get your podcasts, with new episodes available every Thursday.
Hi, I'm Liam Dan, New Zealand Herald Business Editor at Large,
and welcome to this episode of Money Talks. This is
a podcast about money, but we're not going to tell
you how to get rich, and we're not going to
try and pick the next interest rate move. In this series,
I'll be talking to interesting New Zealanders about how money
has shaped their lives and what they've learned over the years.
(00:28):
For today's podcast, I'm joined by celebrated author and recent
winner of the Ockham Book Awards, Emily Perkins Cura. Emily,
Welcome to Money Talks.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Caldern, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Firstly, congratulations on winning the prize for fiction at the
Okham Awards for Lions. How did you getting the big
prize feel?
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Thanks?
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Look really what surprised me? I mean, prizes are strange
because of course you don't really put yourself forward for
them or right with having them in mind, and their
honestly aren't that many of them in New Zealand either,
So there's quite a bit of tension around it, I
guess for you know, the writing community.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Gen publishers get really excited and.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
Yeah, and I've got to say it's like I really
do feel like it is another chance for books to
get a bit more attention and a bit more publicity
and a bit more of people talking about them, which
is always fantastic. And then yeah, I was just blown away.
Look there was an amazing short list of books, amazing
long list of books. It was a really good year
(01:35):
for New Zealand publishing. And yeah, I was thrilled and
really surprised. And it does mean money and these sort
of windfalls are kind of are pretty rare in the
book world.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
So yeah, absolutely there's a chance to write some more.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
It's definitely a chance to write some more. It's a
chance just to keep going. I mean, it's affirmation kind
of psychologically and MATERI really and I believe you had
the head of the of the overall sponsors.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
From Welckholm, Mark Todd.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Yes, yeah, you had interesting guys. Yeah, and there's a lot.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
I mean the award I won was the Jen med
Acorn Prize for Fiction, so you know it comes with
some very generous backing from all involved.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Yeah. Look, I really enjoyed Liones. Just finished it last
night actually, and it is a triumph for me because
I don't read a lot of novels these days. My
wife already had it, obviously, but I become increasingly either
nonfiction or stuck on my phone and hard hard to
finish books. But look, I thought it was interesting. Obviously,
there's some themes there about self discovery and all that
(02:42):
sort of stuff in midlife crisis. But for this podcast,
there was some quite big themes there around money and
class and you know that that whole world of finance
and property development and all that sort of stuff. I
just wondered how you came to sort of settle on
that as the for this novel, and you know what
(03:02):
your influence in inspiration was there.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
Yeah, I think I always find money a really interesting
subject for fiction and for drama. There's an American writer
who I really admire called Grace Paley, and one of
the things that she said about writing was that every
story should include the facts of blood and money. And
you know, she was meaning to elaborate on that blood
(03:29):
ass in humanity, how we relate to each other, relationships, family,
that kind of thing, and money being the sort of
practical thing that activates it all.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
And well, it's not the.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
Only thing that activates obviously, but it's something that influences
relationships quite a lot. And you know, I think the
way that money can be a preoccupant, whether you've got
you know, not enough or.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
You've got too much. You know, there's always sort.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Of interesting stories around that. So as a p engine,
I think it's really really interesting. So I've written about
it having its kind of in the background in the past,
but I was particularly interested with Lioness in writing about
the world where people are incredibly comfortable and from the
point of view of somebody who has jumped class in
(04:19):
a way. So the narrator, Torase Thorn, you know, came
from you know, really humble sort of circumstances in her
young life, and then by marrying into money as a
very young woman, she kind of immediately became part of
this other sort of fairly rarefied world. So there was
(04:41):
sort of character reasons I wanted to explore it in
terms of who she was and whose sense of identity,
But also I think it's just a fascinating backdrop. I
mean that idea of we're always going to be drawn
to stories about the unhappy.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
Rich, yeh. I mean, I've seen a lot of it,
and it rang true from what I've seen outside in
and oh in terms of you know, I covered the
global financial crisis and all the properly developers and finance
companies going over there's a certain I guess, a kind
of person that makes money central and then that the
world of trusts and lawyers and things takes over. And
(05:17):
I noticed you you referenced a book by Eldred Gregg.
What was the sort of research you did around that world.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
Well, one of the primary sources was this wonderful book
by Stephen Aldred Gregg called The Rich, and.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
It's a New Zealand history. I'd written a draft already
before I.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
Found that book, but it was very sort of affirming
in terms of some of the kinds of different flavors
of wealth.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
You know.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
He talks about the distinction between the kind of landed class,
landed gentry class, many of who've got deep origins and
sort of arriving here in stealing land, you know, coming
from other parts of the world and getting a foothold here,
or being part of a bigger sort of imperial or
colonial kind of global movement, like lots of families that
(06:07):
have also got I guess, kind of colonial connections in
other parts of the world.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
As well, So that was sort of one tranch.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
And then the idea of a more manufacturing or sort
of merchant class, just the sort of different social distinctions
that those kinds of wealth generate. So that was interesting
character logically as well. And then I went to I'm
not sure if it's still running, but there was a
fantastic thing called the Ford Film Festival, I think, which
(06:39):
was on in Auckland.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
And my main character is married to a guy who's.
Speaker 3 (06:45):
A property developer, but in an early draft of the
novel he was in more in finance, like a hedge
fund manager or something like that, And so I was
investigating different kinds of sort of pools of money and
different sorts of forcelant activity around these different territories. And
then I settled a bit later on and being a
(07:07):
property developer. So yeah, there was just a fair bit
of reading.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
Yeah, sure, look, we better jump back a bit and
I'll ask you about your relationship with money, I guess.
So one of the things I like to ask is
what your first memory of money is in terms of
actually remembering having it in your hand or having it
influence your world.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
Yeah, I remember the sort of physical sensory aspects of
it really strongly, like what a two cent piece felt like,
and a two cent piece compared to a one cent
piece and a five cent piece, and the different colors,
the different metals, the different shininess, the different images. You know.
I think the coal fire on the two cents and
(07:48):
the tutara on the five cents just as objects, those
coins really fascinating to me, and I think they would
have always meant sweets. I was very interested in sweets
and sort of junk food in general, and the kind
of thing that we didn't much go in for in
(08:08):
my house, and so any opportunity I got where I
got some pocket money or whatever it was, that was
what it was going to.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
It's interesting. If there's one theme through this podcast that
just just with everyone I talked to, it's that they
went off down to the dairy, you know, to get
sweets with the pocket money.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
Well, I mean, there was something I think when you
were little as well. There is just something so magical
about that idea of the little white paper bag that's
got the lollymexentis or you know, a k bar or
a buzz bar, all those things that you could spin
out and make last for ages. So absolutely, that's what
money equaled to me, was the opportunity to eat sweets
(08:47):
and then later on chippies and a bit later on cigarettes.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
But I was giving my own money I had, well
mostly I was. I mean by that time I sort
of heard a paper round and stuff like that.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
So was that the first part time job?
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (09:02):
Like yeah, I had a weird kind of history because
my mother and sister and I were cast in a
few TV commercials when we were when my sister and
I were really young, and so really my first experience
of earning money was when I was sort of like
seven or eight, and for that era, it was a
(09:25):
lot of money. Like I was a weird you know,
sort of lump sum for a day's work, and we
were traveling when I was about nine and ten for
my dad's work. But we sort of went around lots
of other places and stayed with family and went to
you know, like really quite a big trip for those days.
(09:45):
This was like nineteen seventy nine or eighty.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
And the money that we've made doing ads contributed to that.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
So there was kind of different money, you know, big money,
but sort of more set aside, which.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
Was sort of this story of me with money for
a little while, it was either these you know, strange
kind of amounts or then something like I had a
shared paper around, I did lots of babysitting. I would
do a friend and I did sort of invented a
summer job for ourselves where we looked after other people's
(10:22):
children and did a kind of quote quote art club
with them, you know, student jobs, jobs, painting people's shards,
that kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
And then when I.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
Left school when I was fifteen to do a job
in a drama program that was made by TV and Z,
which was a year's work, and that was again sort
of not at the sort of being paid in the.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Commercial rates end of the spectrum, but.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
It was still I mean, it was like a lot
of money for a sixteen year old to be earning.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Was that straight out of school or did you leave
school to do that?
Speaker 3 (10:57):
Well, I had got my EUI and I left school
to do it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Yeah, And.
Speaker 3 (11:04):
So that was I was sort of swinging between this
kind of like yeah, whatever a paper a round pays.
And you know, once I started, once I was earning
the TV money, my mother had me pay rent at home,
and you know, I mean I yeah, it was just
(11:25):
it was just strange because it was sort of like
then it was back to waitressing.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Or yeah, and it was a growing up. It sounds
like you moved around a bit like born in christ Church,
but you grew up in Auckland and Wellington, is that right?
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Yeah, well we lived.
Speaker 3 (11:38):
We moved from christ Church to Auckland when I was
just a baby, and then we moved to Wellington when
I was eleven, and then I sort of bounced up
and down a bit between the two and my kind
of later teens in early twenties.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
And do you remember, I mean, do you remember much
about money in the widest sense of the time, either
with the family and also you know that's growing up
through pretty similar to me, through that radical change in
the early eighties and nineteen eighty four and all that
sort of stuff.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
I mean, we you know, I had had a middle
class upbringing. I mean it was like really you know,
materially comfortable, and I remember that this sort of change
of mood that seemed to come in with the eighties
as well. And then I remember, I mean it was
a bit later, but I do remember vividly the Employment
(12:28):
Contracts Act and you know that whole I remember, sort
of I think I.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
Was busting other unions.
Speaker 3 (12:34):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, all of that just being this sense
that there was a lot of societal change that was
going on around money and employment and rights and class
and how these things were all sort of into interwoven
to affect a sense of, you know, this sort of
(12:55):
sense of society and what society here was.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
As a student, and I guess as a high school student,
were You're always interested in English, I guess, you know,
and was writing always on the cards. I see that.
You know, you sort of fell into that acting almost
out of school, and that could have gone that way.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
Yeah, I mean because after I did that TV show,
went to toy Pacardi, went to drama school and pursued
that for a little while. But I had been kind
of writing as well, and I loved English at school,
English and all those sorts of classics, those kind of subjects.
So I always did want to work in the arts
in some way. And I suppose because early on I
(13:39):
had quite a bit of luck with getting acting jobs,
that was the thing I was drawn to initially.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
Was there ever a sense of concern either from your
parents or even yourself, you know, just that you know,
it's obviously if you're thinking about, you know, financial security,
the arts is kind of risky certainly, you know, ups
and downs, potential for great success, but I guess neither
acting or writing are necessarily IM going to be financially guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
No, that's right.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
I don't think I thought very long term at all
in that regard, and my parents were pretty encouraging. I mean,
they would have probably really liked me to have a
more steady backup option, but they certainly never said, oh,
you know, don't do this. I mean, again, it's funny
the different effects of class because we think about it
(14:31):
through the money lens.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
But I do think one of the things that can.
Speaker 3 (14:35):
Be the case was why I believe we should talk
about it more and why I'm interested in writing about
it and talking to you about it today. There's a
kind of thing about having a middle class or upper
middle class, you know, sort of background where you're encouraged
(14:56):
to expect that you can do things. You know, it's
a sort of mindset as much as anything. And so
I think in that sense, I was incredibly privileged. Like
I just think that that's the sort of aspect of
class privilege that it's good for us to be more
conscious about because it's not you know, there's not a
(15:18):
kind of equality around that.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Yeah, I mean, it would be nice to think we
were expanding that, but it's possible it's going the other way.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
I mean that it's right.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
People are more concerning you to get a house, for example,
kids have got to be thinking earlier about how they're
going to pay get the deposit and pay the mortgage
and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
Yeah, and look, I've got kids who around that kind
of age group now of late teens and early twenties,
and it's just, you know, you just don't know where
to start. You really don't know where to start thinking
about that. So I think there's a way in which
I was able to sort of feel confident pursuing a
life in the arts, partly because the arts in general
(15:56):
were a big part of my childhood and upbringing, in
a sort of valued in my childhood and in my education.
But also but yeah, because there was this sort of
privileged idea that what you wanted to do you could
probably make work, you know, the sort of sense that yeah,
(16:17):
just a sort of confidence, and you know, of course
there were times when it was really harder.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
And I lived in London from.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
My mid twenties to my mid thirties, and you know
that was also like often really financially challenging, but we
were always arouse, always around other people who are doing
similar things.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
So it's kind of become part of a world.
Speaker 3 (16:40):
Where that's that precarity is the norm, unfortunately.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
And you sort of have found a way through all
those years, and I guess now to some extent as well,
to sort of keep writing, but also working in the
publishing industry teaching those sort of things to keep some
steady income as well as writing. Is that a difficult it?
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Yeah, I think so.
Speaker 3 (17:02):
And I've sort of come and gone from doing freelance
work to having changes of doing full time work, and
I've just sort of cobbled it together again, not with
any great plan or much degree of kind of foresight
or or yeah the future, it's all been a bit accidental.
(17:23):
I mean, it's sort of I would say it's worked
out over the years, but there've definitely been times when
I haven't got my own writing done, in my own
projects finished, because I've been you know, it's been more
important to have a full time job and to be
secure in that way for my family, and you know,
when the kids were younger particularly, so there are ways
(17:45):
so much as hard to write or make kind of
different sorts of work and have full time employment. There's
all kinds of like C and Z. You know, I
did a study crab New Zealand, like a couple of
years ago. I don't know if you want any fats
and figures. Sure, I think this is from a study
(18:05):
that creat New Zealand did with Zen on air and
conducted by an organization called Kantar Public. And this is
a couple of years ago. Creative professionals median income in
New Zealand is thirty seven thousand dollars compared to the
median of sixty one eight hundred dollars for salary and waging.
So that sort of you know, it goes on from
(18:27):
there in the median income from creative pursuits alone, like
if you're not supplementing, your income is nineteen five hundred
dollars a year, and then that shrinks if you're a woman,
and that shrinks again if you're a deaf or disabled artist.
So it's like there are Yeah, it's very useful to
have these facts.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
I think and I.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Mean the idea that you have to say, I mean,
it's sort of there's almost a romantic idea that you
almost have to sacrifice everything else to be, especially a
novelist or a poet or something like that. I mean,
did you sort of always push back against that of it?
Speaker 3 (19:03):
Yeah? I do push back against that because I feel
like that sort of Yeah, the idea of the starving
artist and the garrett that particular cliche.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
I mean, it just doesn't serve the artist, you know.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
And obviously we're coming into a time which is even
more complicated by the different ways that you know, arts
get sort of consumed and commodified and you know, the
sort of dreaded word content that gets banded around, the
kind of reduction of a lot of artistic practice to
this concept of content.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
And you know, then you've.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
Got those sorts of ideas that there are plenty of
other people making money out of, you know, artists' works.
I'm thinking about musicians and sort of platforms where their
work might be accessed. It's yeah, there's enormous inequality in
the arts in in terms of you know, how people
(20:03):
get paid and yeah, and certainly any kind of security
around that and Look, I'm incredibly lucky. I'm writing full
time at the moment, and I'm well aware that I'm
in a really particularly privileged position in New Zealand terms being.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
Able to do that right now.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
And I don't know if that's going to always be
the case, but the factors, I can do it at
the moment, and that's yeah, that's a rare thing. So
I'm well aware that I'm speaking from a particularly fortunate
position as well.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
Yeah, well, you work to get there, I mean, but
it's yeah, no.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
It's not like it's just sort of gets you know.
I don't doubt that, and I'm i guess sort of
comparatively with other fields as well. It's got its challenges,
but I just mean, across the arts in general, there
are people who are you know, who are pursuing it
against great odds, and I really admire that.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
I wish that they were.
Speaker 3 (21:03):
Sorry, while I'm on Maine, but this is where I
do think that it would be great to investigate the
idea of a universal basic income, or certainly some kind
of like income for artists. That would mean that there
were we were able to experience arts made by practitioners
(21:25):
from you know, from any walk of life, rather than
it being something that becomes only available to people who
can afford to pursue it.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
Yeah, and then to survive on it. There is an
element of not so much lack or whatever. But you know,
it's very difficult if you're producing only for the New
Zealand market. Did you feel you know, you've you've presumably
got more reach now and does that help because you know,
I've noticed with book publishing in particular, the New Zealand
market is so small, and it's probably the same with
music and bands and things. As soon as you find
(21:56):
a niche outside of New Zealand, it's got more potential financially,
I guess.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Yeah, that's absolutely true.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
And I think because I first started publishing when I
was living in the UK, so I've always had this
sort of double thing where my books have come out
there and here at the same time. And I mean,
even late Australia is just a much bigger market than
New Zealand, so if you can get work going over.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
There, then that's also a really good thing.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
It's definitely hard and small here and that's another reason
why I just believe that state support for the arts
is necessary if we're going to have any kind of
arts culture at all.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Yeah, and actually exporting it to you know, to help
export it to the world. I guess that's right. Have
you worked with people around adapting your work into film, television,
that kind of thing?
Speaker 3 (22:49):
Oh, yeah, I have, so that various things have kind
of come and gone in terms of rights over the years.
And then yeah, there's the rights for Lions have been
picked up, so that's really great, but there's you know,
there's sort of nothing to say about it until it's.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
A sure yeah hopefully fingers crossed. Yeah, I mean a
complicated kind of process.
Speaker 3 (23:11):
Yeah. Yeah, and it's a it's a long process. So
it's wonderful. I think that's one thing that I've got
to by the sort of the stage in my career
is that I celebrate every small, little moment because you
never know if it's going to lead to anything else,
and it's just like worth celebrating in and of itself.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
So yeah, I'm thrilled that the rights have been picked up.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
Yeah, but New Zealand, you know, New Zealand arts generally
isn't a place where you can set a story like Lions.
You know, it's a New Zealand story in terms of setting,
a location and some of the language. But it's also
a fairly well modern Western universal story as well, so
the world can deal with New Zealand as a backdrop
and not be too thrown by that.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
I guess, yeah, absolutely, And I think you can see
that across the success of you know, I mean to say,
a recent example of the tea series After the Party.
You know, it's just done brilliantly in Australia, it's been
winning prizes in France. It's looking to get a miniscota
show in the UK later this year. So something can
be I think it's so true of the arts in
(24:14):
general that something can be very specific to the place
that it comes from and to its location, but if
it pays close enough.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
Attention to that, then they're unleashes.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
Off on a kind of universality that people can connect
with from anywhere.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
I've got a few quick fire money questions that we
throw at guests. One of them would be, what's the
poorest you've ever been?
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Probably just in overdrivet deepest in debt thing?
Speaker 3 (24:49):
Well, I suppose, well, deepest in debt would be having
a mortgage. I mean, yeah, having a mortgage. On how
we bought our first flat when we're living in the UK,
and it was actually more achievable there because you could
have like a zero deposit, like a tiny deposit. Interest
(25:12):
rates were much lower than they were here at the time,
and you could get interest only mortgages. So that was
sort of how we got a foothold. And then yeah,
I don't know whatever, whenever my mortgage is at its biggest,
the deepest and debt sure.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
And sort of the flip side of that is, do
you recall the time when you felt like, Okay, you're
comfortable enough now, and what would be the most indulgent
purchase you can remember having made?
Speaker 3 (25:38):
I think that my most indulgent spending of money would
be travel.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Definitely.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
Someone who sort of cares more about money for experiences
rather than things, would you say.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
Well, I would.
Speaker 3 (25:50):
I mean, I do also like my things. And this
is where you know, sort of coming from and writing line,
It's like, I'm examining the sort of soul of this
woman who who's married into money and found that the
nice things that she surrounded herself with are a bit
of a trap and they're kind of preventing her from
seeing other kinds of ways of living and really being
(26:12):
more true to herself. But I didn't want to judge
that either, because I can understand why nice things sort
of become talismanic to her. And when I say nice things,
I mean you could be talking about something from something
very very small that is just a purely you know,
an object that kind of gives you some sort of
comfort or sense of beauty, to something much bigger. So yeah,
(26:38):
I would find it hard to get rid of my
creature comforts for sure. But I mean I think it's
really about you don't need to keep on crowing those
things at all. I believe her in a bit of
concept of enoughism, and that was another thing I wanted
to investigate with the book. You know, why is it
that people don't just stop when they've got enough?
Speaker 2 (27:01):
Why not?
Speaker 3 (27:01):
It's an absolute mystery to me, in an unanswerable question.
So I was really keen to explore that through those characters.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
Yeah, I mean, some of the characters do challenge that
whole idea of I guess that lifestyle, which is Teresa's
shops and things that is sold that kind of traps
people into the next designer thing. You know, A nice
thing about a novel I guess is that you can
have an argument with yourself via different characters.
Speaker 3 (27:27):
Liam, That is perfectly put. I mean, that's exactly what
I think that fiction and drama can do is sort
of have these arguments and just activate them and have
them be alive and complicated and not you know, not
be black and white, not have to come down on
a side of right or wrong, but just sort of
really exploring the complexity of the issues. I mean, hopefully
(27:49):
you know, through a fun and entertaining story that's going
to carry you along in that sense as well. Yeah,
So those sorts of different not any kind of a
is to the material world. We're a big part of
the engine of the writing for me.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
Sure. I mean one of the questions I always ask
on this and it sort of goes to that what
you're saying about why people keep doing it is, you know,
is making money important to you or is it more
of a byproduct of success?
Speaker 2 (28:17):
It's a byproduct.
Speaker 3 (28:19):
I mean, I think it's where we do live in
a world where money is seen as a marker of success,
and we know how really misconstrued that can be. You know,
it's just like absolutely, you know, that's the sort of
it's really dangerous to make that correlation, I think. But
I think examining what you mean by success is something
(28:39):
that you have to do and keep doing, you know,
through your life in various different ways. And for me, yeah,
creative success is not to do with money. It's it's
not about that, I mean.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
And I guess you know that makes sense. I'm asking
that question of a novelist and people might expect that answer,
but I would say, it's interesting is I've asked it
of you know, property developers and basically billionaires, multi millionaires,
and they all say the same thing. They all say
money is not important. It's always you know, whether it's
structuring the perfect business deal or you know, just their
(29:16):
incredible goal set is some of these people. And it
just so happens that if you're in property development or finance,
that money is a big, bry product of that success.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
And so well, I'd say, then if it's not the
point of the success, and all the more reason to
spread it.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
Around fair enough.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
It's a great opportunity for them to do that.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
I sometimes ask people what their favorite song about money
is on this podcast. I guess I could ask that,
but I wonder if you do, you have a favorite
book that touches on wealth and money.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
Oh well, I mean I would really recommend this book,
the Steven Alder.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
Yeah, I'm interested in that.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
Actually, it's very entertainingly written, and you know it's.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
It's just called the Rich. It's called the Rich. I
think a social history of New Zealand. Perhaps I might
get that slightly wrong, but yeah, it goes up to
the nineties. I think that's about as far as it goes.
And obviously things have changed even more since then, but
he's certainly got the trajectory that has led us to
(30:18):
where we currently are.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
Yeah, for sure. One last question. Really, you know this
is sort of a big social economic question, but what
we sort of ask is, if we could make you
Prime Minister for the day and give you control of
the economy and society for a day, is there some
policy that you would put at the top of the
list that you would like to enact to really address
(30:42):
equity in social and economic inequality.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
Look, I know it's a hard one to work out
because there are lots of different kind of approaches and
complexities that would come out of it, But I would
go for a ubi that would probably be the first
thing I do. Maybe also, I'd be looking at different
ways of honoring to tilty and you know, pushing some
(31:08):
more policies through in that regard. And I think those
two things hand in hand would do us an enormous
amount of good. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
I mean, I was going to ask, would you like
to see more government investment in the arts? But I
guess if you had that universal basic income, it might
not have to be doled out in the same way.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
It might look different the way it comes through.
Speaker 3 (31:29):
And yeah, you'd need a lot of very good minds
working on it and just fine tuning it, and you know,
it might take a few different goals to get it right,
but I think it would be much more fair than
the way things are now.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
Cool.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
Well, that's it from us. Thank you very much Emily
Perkins for talking to us for.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
Money Talks, Thanks for having me on.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
Thanks for listening to this episode of Money Talks. If
you want to get in touch, drop me a line
Liam dot Dan at nzmeed dot co dot nz and
you can read more from me at insidherld dot co
dot INZID. Thanks to my producer Ethan Sills and sound
engineer Leanne mc donald. Follow Money talks on iHeartRadio or
(32:11):
wherever you get your podcasts, with new episodes available every Thursday.
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