Emma Lewisham, co-founder and CEO of her eponymous beauty brand, shares her best and worst money stories with Liam Dann.
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Madam Money. Hi, I'm Liam Dan, New Zealand Herald Business
Editor at Large and welcome to this episode of Money Talks.
This is a podcast about money, but we're not going
to tell you how to get rich, and we're not
going to try and pick the next interest rate move.
In this series, I'll be talking to interesting New Zealanders
(00:24):
about how money has shaped their lives and what they've
learned over the years. For today's podcast, I'm joined by
Emma Lusham, the co founder and CEO of her eponymous
skincare company, Emma Lusham. The company has been described as
a cult favorite since launching in twenty nineteen, and has
often described as the world's first climate positive beauty brand Cure. Emma,
(00:47):
welcome to Money Talks.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Hey, look, you're probably looking at me thinking, well, obviously
not a big skincare product user.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Who know it's been looking pretty good?
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Cool? Well, you've just handed me a supernatural is it?
Vitali Tarie Tarlie face Electra. Yes, So tell me about that.
What have you given me there?
Speaker 2 (01:09):
It was in response to our customers that came to
us and said that they didn't want to go down
the botox path, but they wanted something as close as
possible in a bottle, and we took that challenge.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
John.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
We have physiologists who understand how the skin works and
work for six months to understand how we could sort
of replicate some of the benefits of botox. It's proven
in a French lab to actually relax muscles within twenty
four hours and ninety one percent, so incredible, unique, world
first testing and it's been a huge chat. We launched
(01:40):
it a month ago now and we sort of exceeded
projections and sales on it, which has been really really exciting.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Cool, exciting. I think I'll give it a try.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Let me know what you think.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Yeah, I'll talk a bit more about the brand and
some of that. Obviously it is quite a scientific process
that goes on there. But I'm keen to get right
back to the beginning and ask, you know, what were
your first memories of money and holding it in your
hand and that sort of thing.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
We grew up in the Waikato. My parents said there
was four of us in our family, and my parents
really modeled hard work to me. My dad before he
would go to his full time job as a lifestock
officer would share milk cows before, and I was always
really interested and wanted to spend time with dads who
(02:26):
would go along with him, and as early as eight
years old, and he would give me some pocket money
because of that. I didn't do it. Because of that.
I just loved spend the time with my dad and
being out and with the animals. But that would be
my first recollection.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Oh cool. And so when you got pocket money, did
you save for things or did you spend it? Do
you remember what your sort of dreams and aspirations for
money were as an eight year old?
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Not this, I to be honest. I think I spent
it at the local dairy and pick and mix lollies,
and at that age it wasn't a lot, but just
those treats.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
And I suppose, I mean, you know, you say, you
know you weren't obviously thinking about this kind of company
and brand and things like that. But as say, a
teenager and growing up, were you someone who was aware
of makeup and beauty products and was interested in that?
Speaker 2 (03:16):
Not really. I grew up in the Waikato than we
had a stint in the West Coast, and I didn't
use skincare on makeup until eighteen nineteen. Until I was
a university I was a bit of a tomboy and
loved playing sport and thing out of nature, riding horses
and with my friends, and it wasn't really something on
my mind. I think more that was on my mind
(03:39):
as I've always sort of loved solving problems, a little
bit of a misfit and rebellious child at times, and
sort of challenging the status quos. So it was more
that immolution came from who I am as a person
rather than interest in wanting to have a skincare brand.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
Yeah, and I'm wondering, did you get you know, sort
of money and financial stuff and a sense of doing business.
Did you get that from from? I guess with the
farm and also with your dad being a you know,
a livestock agent, those are sort of quite sort of
business y type type of things, right.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
I think what I got from my parents is the
knowledge of just how hard work is, tenacity, and that
you know, nothing was below them. My mum had four
children and in the evenings when dad would get home
from working, she would go and clean the local banks.
And I think that taught me a lot of humility
(04:32):
and being willing to roll up my sleeves and do
things if it meant I could be better off, my
family could be better off.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
Yeah, I mean, do you do you recall a sense
of how, you know, how the financial situation felt generally
as a child or was it just something in the background.
I mean, was it a comfortable childhood or was it
a normal sort of middle class child and how did
you how did you sort of view it?
Speaker 2 (04:57):
I would say middle class. We didn't have a lot.
There was four of us. My parents were young when
they had us. They we always had opportunities, and if
we wanted to play sport or needed things for school,
or needed clothes and food on the table, that was
absolutely there. It wasn't the extras for overseas holidays or
especially coming to my teenage years, like clothing that I
(05:19):
wanted and things like that. But I think I always
learned from my parents. Really it is the simple things
that make you happy and something of yeah, yeah, were
you a good.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
Kid at school? I mean you said you're a bit rebellious.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
I I think I was good. I definitely challenged things
and asked a lot of questions, but I still did well,
I definitely wasn't the top of the class, but I
was someone that thought differently and could solve problems well.
And something I say to other kids like double down
(05:53):
on what you are good at and not worry so
much if you're not great at every subject at school.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
Yeah, I mean, were the subjects you chosen? Again? Going
through to university, were you sort on a career path
towards business?
Speaker 2 (06:06):
I started studying science at university, actually chemistry and biology,
and as additional papers, I did law papers and business
papers and started to do quite well in the business
papers and got asked to go into the honors side
of things at the Cargo University, and was also really
(06:27):
keen and put my hand up to work with local
Otago businesses to sort of help within their business and
solving their problems. And it was always the problem that
they didn't think it was, and I just naturally started
to go down that path and be more in client
and so went down more of a business path and
studied and finished a degree.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
I guess it's a great way to get some on
the ground experience too, to take what you're learning in
the classroom and apply it in the real world.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Absolutely, and I was fortunate for my final year I
did period in Barcelona at ASAD, which is one of
their top business schools, and it was a completely different
way of learning in that we were given from our
lecturers who worked in places like Google, real life business
challenges they were facing at that time to solve with them.
And I thrived in that and I absolutely loved that
(07:13):
that style.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
Yeah, my researcher points out, this is also where a
Tiger university, this is where you meet your husband. Is
that right?
Speaker 2 (07:20):
We did meet at Otago, but we didn't reconnect until
he came back from London and I was in Auckland
and we bumped into each other.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
And so so out of university, what was the first
first career step? You know, what was the first job?
Speaker 2 (07:35):
I actually went and worked in Wellington for the Business
round Table, so more in like the public policy space,
and like really enjoyed that job and my time there
in economics and understanding.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
So what era was that? I mean they sort of
changed name and evolved a bit later on.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
They Yes, it was when Roger Kerr was running and
learned a lot from Roger Kerr and Catherine who were
just phenomenal business people and good people and just.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
To get that economics grounding too. They'll be very focused
on that.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Absolutely I really did, and just the insights there and
really expanded my knowledge in that more political space. And
then move comes right too.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
I mean they were getting involved in all sorts of
political debates and all that sort of stuff. Were you
were you in the thick of.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
That, absolutely at the thick of that and getting to
you know, rub shoulders with some of the top CEOs
in New Zealand. I think what they instilled in me
is that like, you know, that wasn't out of reach,
and like having that exposure being part of those conversations
for hugely valuable for my confidence. It's such an early
stage of my career.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Yeah. Yeah, during that era, you know, your first sort
of job was a sort of a sense of finally
having a little bit of money or you know, I
know you obviously not a huge salary when you first
come out, but going from being a student and things,
was there a sense that you know that you were
on a financial path.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
It did? It did. It was, as you say, coming
out of a university and that salary like challenging and a
really good test to sort of budgeting and managing things.
And I remember Mecca actually was in the cokeldes and
stained building that I was in, and I'd walk past
it every lunch time and that was my kryptonite.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
Yeah yeah, things that you shouldn't it couldn't.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Quite afford totally.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Yeah, yeah. And so that in terms of you know,
executive career, Brother was the big break, is that right?
For You're there for eight years? How did you get
into Brother as a business?
Speaker 2 (09:37):
They were based in Wellington and I it was a
global business obviously, and I was really intrigued to go
more into a into a more of a business marketing
strategy role and it was one that had international opening
as well, so I was working across like Singapore and
Japan and the UK in the US and that really
(10:00):
interest me and so I played for it. I got
the role and then quickly worked my way up to
senior executive role and managing some big portfolios internationally. And
I think for me it was I was willing to
work a lot harder than anyone else, willing to speak
to that my child absolutely do the work that others
(10:24):
didn't want to do because it was below them, and
just my ability to solve problems that others.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
Yeah, and did that take you overseas?
Speaker 2 (10:31):
It did. I spent a lot of time in Japan, Nagoya,
and in Singapore and the UK and America, and so
that was absolutely fantastic for someone in their late twenties.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
Yeah, and you did as eight years? Does it sound right? Yeah?
I mean it's on one hand, it's quite a long
time to stay with the tech company. But on the
other hand, I guess sometimes people follow one company right through,
like you know, Christopher Luxen with Unilever and things. You know,
you can they have an amazing organization and ability to
switch roles. You wouldn't tempt to just to sort of
(11:06):
follow the career path right through, you know, with one
big organization.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Well, I was, and it was such a tricky decision
to make. Do I take this punt and launch a
company that I was starting from scratch? There was no
guarantees or I had this opportunity with brother to go
on to become a director, potentially the one of the
first female CEOs of the company. And I had to
(11:33):
make a call, which was tough, but I believed that
if there's a backup plan, you're not going to go
all in and so I had no plan B. There
was no plan B. I had to five account of
all and go for it.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
Again. This is the research notes are telling me, and
I sort of not hesitate to mention it, but it
is a sort of life and death and the unfortunate
passing of your mother has been cited. You've cited as
one of the reasons for making the big MO. Was
that a driver?
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Yes, it was when everything really connected for me and
a moment of pause and reflection around my health and
way that I was living and coming into my thirties
and also trying to get pregnant. And I did a
lot of research into sleep and exercise and food, and
part of the research and discussions I had was with
(12:24):
my doctor where it was raised that hydroquinone that I
was using for hyperfigmentation was really questionable and something I
could should reconsider. I then thought, well, for me, what
I feel more comfortable with using is natural skincare that
seemed the most luxurious to me the best for my health.
And when I went to the market looking for natural
(12:45):
skin care that really worked and had science and evidence
and luxury aspect to it, it didn't exist. It was
a huge gap internationally for that, and I knew if
I wanted it, other people would want it to So.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
That's when I sort of moments where all the work
you've done to understand business and all that sort of
stuff comes together with a sort of very personal experience
about seeing a gap in the market. Absolutely, was it
a like a light bulb moment.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
It was because I genuinely didn't set out to launch
a skin care brand or a beauty brand. I came
across this this problem. It was me since a child,
but as a child loving solving problems, challenging things, having
this experience with business and working across multiple functions and
knowing how to pull together a business and a plan
(13:33):
and a strategy and products and going I think, you know,
I think I can do this, And there was something
that really lit up inside of me.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
It took three years to launch the brand. You know,
what was the process of doing that? Like, I mean,
you know, you're transferring skills, but obviously you know, from
the tech industry across to something a very different industry.
Did you have to sort of learn the basics of
the industry from the ground up?
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Steep learning curve? Absolutely, but anything is possible to put
your mind to it. I brought on a co founder,
Kimberly Morrison. We worked together at the time, and I
said to her one lunch time, I have this idea.
I really think there is something here and that we
can do something better and that exists on the market.
(14:27):
So we spent three years. We had to keep our
day jobs because we needed the money to fund this business,
and so we'd work in the day we both had
really full on jobs, and then every evening would be
online together every weekend, and then we'd take our leave
to work on the business. So I think wasn't the
case that we had a whole lot of money or
(14:47):
investment from the start that we could quote our jobs
to do both of them, which was challenging.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
Because it's an industry where you've got to look. I mean,
there's an element of glamour and sophistication all that you
can't sort of bluff that too easily, can you. How
do you sort of you know, without masses of capital investment.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
No, no, you we believe, you know, we believe in
the start of setting up a really robust global company,
and so always set out and establish that from the start.
I think at the start we were really clear on
the things that we would invest in and the non negotiables,
and that for us was the testing and the scientific
research behind the products to prove that they worked and
(15:30):
outperformed traditional skincare. So we just prioritized the way that
we invested, and we were just smart with how we
managed the cash flow and our approach to spend at
the start of the business to sort of get runs
on the board, get profitable to better put that back
into the company.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
And did you have a background in the marketing side.
I mean, you know, obviously you've put your name. Your
name is the brand, so it's kind of a all
in on the marketing, right.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
Yes, I did have background in marketing, and I felt
com with it being my name because so much of
it reflected the values that I have or the standards
I hold myself up to. And it was very much
a personal story and a brand that we want people
to connect with and feel that they're connecting with a
human on and so that's sort of some of the
(16:17):
reasons as to why it's called Emma Luisham. But did
have a background many in strategy. But I think if
you do.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
A play is it I mean it's helpful and that
you're able to you know, you're the person who's going
to sell that brand. Brand, it's kind of got your
name on it, but you you I guess it puts
you out there in the in the in the public
sort of space that maybe you're not if you're an
executive at Brother. Was that a challenge? I mean, all
(16:46):
all that kind of end of the marketing world.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
It's been unique and different. But I've really enjoyed that
part of it. And it looks like connecting with my
like our customers and connected with work.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Front facing social media all that sort of stuff.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Yes, exactly, I have a very private social media which
I connect with by brands and families. But the emmolition
one is very much the world of emolution and is
in the company and.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
Talking about the values and things. You take a very ethical,
you know, ethically grounded approach to the business, so no
animal testing, climate positive. As we mentioned earlier, you know
what was behind your desire to do it that way
and to sort of make better focus and also to
what extent do you have to do you feel that
there was is there a trade or for a sacrifice
(17:32):
on the pure financial when you do it that way.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Good questions from the start, and one of the other
light bulb moments that we had was that the beauty
industry needed reimagining, rethinking. The packaging side of things is
our largest carbon emitter, and it also generates one hundred
billion units of waste annually, which is then landfall or
being burnt. And we could see this and knew that
(17:54):
there must be a better way, and the way is
through circular thinking, circular models, refillable products, and taking ownership
for that material end of life, seeing it as precious
and taking it back, which we do through our emmiluition
and beauty circle. And so from the get go we
were solving two problems, natural products that worked and were luxurious.
And if we knew that, if we could achieve that,
(18:16):
we could change a business model, because people first and
foremost by exceptional products, then we give them a much
more sustainable model to operate within, which is our refills
and our return models. For me, it was always about
we knew this information. We really do dig deep into
the information. Because we knew it. We couldn't just carry
(18:37):
on with how it always been done. It wasn't the
right thing to do, the right thing to do is
to acknowledge that is a problem that we need to
own and take accountability for. So I think the are
the values about understanding, taking accountability, solving the hard problems,
and not just looking left and right and saying, well
everyone else is doing it, that's okay, that's not our way.
(19:00):
Truly think differently.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Yeah, I mean, I guess there's no way to corners though,
once you've committed to that. You know, was there ever
times when you were sort of lying awake at night
worrying about the financial side because of the you know,
there's got to be X. It pays off in the
long run, obviously, and it's paying off now, but you know,
when you're starting out, that extra outlay to do things
properly and do things ethically can be scary. I guess
(19:24):
it can be.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
But we're always playing the long game. I really believe
in that if you make those decisions for the long term,
and that did look like investing in huge amount of
packaging that was refillable because that didn't exist, and right
there and then that was challenging, but we knew that
that would pay off, and now our refillable products, our
refill sales are higher than our well manske it is
(19:48):
already paying off and.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
That is sort of transforming the way the industry works. Yes,
we saw that in one profile that you a former
Money Talks guest Rob Fife was an investor. How did
he get involved and how did you get How did
you go about getting those kind of investors involved pitching?
Speaker 2 (20:05):
It was actually through Sarah, his wife, who had used
the product and seen them a lurisham and we'd actually
just met to have to catch up and Sarah's obviously
also been successful in business, and just to get some
advice from her and her like lending in air, and
(20:26):
it really developed from there. We aligned, we had good conversations.
We then met Rob and it was just a natural next.
He loves r brand he does he does and ones
that are really wanting to achieve on a global.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
Yeah, that's right, taking it out to the world. Yes,
one sort of tough question here, but you know, cost
of living crisis and you know all the recessionary stuff
that we're going through right now. I mean, you know,
high end beauty products are sort of a luxury item.
How do you sort of focus the you know, the
marketing and the sales around those sort of issues when
(21:01):
we go through going through a tough.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
Time for us. We genuinely believe in quality over quantity.
You buy one product with their mother or shim that
is the equivalent of four to five others. We really
do pack incredible value into each product, and we've always
wanted to make luxury more accessible. For the craftsmanship of
(21:24):
those products, the investment that we put into research and testing,
and the level of innovative ingredients and concentrations of them,
we genuinely could charge twice the amount, but we don't
because that's been a guiding principle of the brand. You
pay for what you're going to get, and for me,
I want to create the very best products in the
(21:46):
world and ship those to customers, and I hand on
heart know that they are getting that and they're getting
really good value. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
I mean, do you get involved in the science side.
I mean you mentioned a bit of a bit of
science and chemistry at school.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
Absolutely, I love it. I really involved with our new
product development team ol scientists. I've even gone back to
do study and courses with Harvard and physiology and biochemistry.
It's an area that I continue to personally invest in.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
And that adds a lot of value to the brand.
I guess the fact that you're not just the face
of it, you're actually involved in the production of the study.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
It really hands on with it. I still sign off
every batch that's produced to make sure that it. Wow,
that's the quality I expect.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Yeah, we've got a few quick fire questions. Sort of
almost touched on this earlier, but you know, what's the
poorest you've ever been?
Speaker 2 (22:43):
I think living in Barcelona as a student. That was tough.
It's expensive in Europe, but it was also incredibly happy
and I loved that.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
So you were at Target University and then I didn't exchange,
exchanged to Barcelona, so this was a high school.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
It was a university university, my final university. I did
my finish my degree in Barcelona, which was an incredible opportunity.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
And so you're poor but in a beautiful place. Yes, yes,
you walk around and stuff what.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
Was still so beautiful and you just may may do Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
Yeah, what's the most indulgent purchase you've ever made?
Speaker 2 (23:20):
I remember buying my parents' Rugby World Cup twenty fifteen.
It must have been the all black Australian Final tickets,
which was incredibly expensive for my wage at the time,
but I'm so glad. I did you know? It was
such a sme short, special moment my mum and dad,
and my mum had been really sick at the time,
(23:41):
so that was extravagant.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Kind of thing that you never regret, right, you never regret? No, yeah,
along those lines. But you know, sort of more looking forward,
I guess do you still have things that you've fantasize
about buying one day? Like, you know, is there a
dream car or a dream bad somewhere or something.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
I honestly feel that I've got everything that I need.
I think as you get older in life, you realize
that the material things don't make you happy. I think
for me, it's more wanting to buy more time, more
time with my daughter, with my family, with my friends
than material things.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Yeah, I mean, it's a look, it's probably a relevant
point to ask this question that we always ask. And
but you know, how much is making money important to
you or how much of that is just sort of
a byproduct of success?
Speaker 2 (24:36):
It is a byproduct. I love having a purpose and
having a job where I'm really solving real problems and
having an impact on people's lives.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
Do you still imagine winning lotto, and if so, how
much do you imagine winning?
Speaker 2 (24:53):
No? I hear that people that win lotter are really unhappy,
which makes sense, right, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
Well, I was like, I don't by a lot of tickets,
but when I imagine winning it, I only ever imagine
winning a few hundred thousand or something. The idea of
winning a hundred million and turning upside down doesn't sound
very appealing to me.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
I genuinely believe if you're not if you're waiting for
a pot of gold or a goal in the future
to be happy, you'll never be happy. It's about genuinely
being happy with where you are and your circumstances. And
so that's my.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
Philosophy to it. And I guess you know. So the
goals you're setting are around apart from family stuff, I guess,
but around the business and where you want it to be.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
And my personal goals. I think I've grown so much
as a person through this experience, and it's challenged and
stretched and grown me and leveled me up. And they
are the goals I have for the business and personally
and my family.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
Yeah. One thing we sort of well, we always ask
people if we can make your Prime Minister for the
day or you know, ruler of New Zealand for a day.
You know, what's something you would do to Sometimes I
say address economic inequality, but in this case I'd sort
of say, well, or environmental issues or something that you're
passionate about. If you could sort of bring in a
(26:07):
big policy to change change the country or change the world,
what would be your focus.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
I think that businesses need to take more accountability for
what they bring into the world, and I think that
there needs to be more government regulation and changes in
that space to hold businesses to account. I don't think
it should be all on the government to pick up
the issues of businesses and what they do, or all
in cut up to customers and consumers as well. So
(26:36):
I think more rigor accountability.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
Yeah, sure, I mean it sounds like you're not advocating
sort of a strict legislative approach or would you, you know,
would you toughen environmental rules or would you sort of
are you I guess I'm getting out as a quick
question about how intense you think government should get involved
in business regulation and that sort of thing.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
I would hope to think that businesses do the right
thing right and we are not waiting for the government
to regulate or legislate on anything. I think that we
want to be well ahead of that. But then we'll
need to come a time where there is more regulation
and toughness from a government perspective to meet business and
(27:17):
challenge business and what they're doing in the way that
they're acting.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
Sure. Yeah. And look, finally, Emma, just coming back to
the brand and how it's going. How is the global
roll out going in that ambition of becoming a global brand.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
Really well, we're thrilled. Australia is now our largest market.
Last year we launched into the UK with the retail
called Space and K which is equivalent to Mecca, and
are now in all of their doors as well as
Harrod's and Liberty More. The further expansion in the US
this year. So just yeah, it's been an incredible reception globally.
(27:54):
I think for us we're still very young four and
a half years old, and we see the Australasia is
still a very key markets that we want to get right.
So although we are growing internationally, we're doing it in
a really measured and thoughtful way and not at the
compromise to what we're delivering here.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
Sure, and I guess you've also got to be careful
about growing the organization too fast. Is it organic or
how do you how do you approach it from a
business point of.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
View, because art and science is of wanting to do
so in a way that's sustainable for our people, our operations,
how we're doing things, but at the same time being
able to manage that growth and execute on that growth
incredibly well. So it's about always looking ahead and where
(28:41):
we're going to be in twelve eighteen months and preparing
for that rather than preparing for where we are now.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
Sure, Emma, thank you very much for being here, great
for having me, Thanks, thank you, thanks for listening to
this episode of Money Talks. If you want to get
in touch, drop me a line at Liam dot Dan
at enzed me dot co dot zid and you can
read more from me at inzidherld dot co dot zid.
Thanks to my producer Ethan Sills and sound engineer LeAnn McDonald.
(29:11):
Follow Money Talks on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts,
with new episodes available every Thursday.
Madam Money. Hi, I'm Liam Dan, New Zealand Herald Business
Editor at Large and welcome to this episode of Money Talks.
This is a podcast about money, but we're not going
to tell you how to get rich, and we're not
going to try and pick the next interest rate move.
In this series, I'll be talking to interesting New Zealanders
(00:24):
about how money has shaped their lives and what they've
learned over the years. For today's podcast, I'm joined by
Emma Lusham, the co founder and CEO of her eponymous
skincare company, Emma Lusham. The company has been described as
a cult favorite since launching in twenty nineteen, and has
often described as the world's first climate positive beauty brand Cure. Emma,
(00:47):
welcome to Money Talks.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Hey, look, you're probably looking at me thinking, well, obviously
not a big skincare product user.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Who know it's been looking pretty good?
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Cool? Well, you've just handed me a supernatural is it?
Vitali Tarie Tarlie face Electra. Yes, So tell me about that.
What have you given me there?
Speaker 2 (01:09):
It was in response to our customers that came to
us and said that they didn't want to go down
the botox path, but they wanted something as close as
possible in a bottle, and we took that challenge.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
John.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
We have physiologists who understand how the skin works and
work for six months to understand how we could sort
of replicate some of the benefits of botox. It's proven
in a French lab to actually relax muscles within twenty
four hours and ninety one percent, so incredible, unique, world
first testing and it's been a huge chat. We launched
(01:40):
it a month ago now and we sort of exceeded
projections and sales on it, which has been really really exciting.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Cool, exciting. I think I'll give it a try.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Let me know what you think.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Yeah, I'll talk a bit more about the brand and
some of that. Obviously it is quite a scientific process
that goes on there. But I'm keen to get right
back to the beginning and ask, you know, what were
your first memories of money and holding it in your
hand and that sort of thing.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
We grew up in the Waikato. My parents said there
was four of us in our family, and my parents
really modeled hard work to me. My dad before he
would go to his full time job as a lifestock
officer would share milk cows before, and I was always
really interested and wanted to spend time with dads who
(02:26):
would go along with him, and as early as eight
years old, and he would give me some pocket money
because of that. I didn't do it. Because of that.
I just loved spend the time with my dad and
being out and with the animals. But that would be
my first recollection.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Oh cool. And so when you got pocket money, did
you save for things or did you spend it? Do
you remember what your sort of dreams and aspirations for
money were as an eight year old?
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Not this, I to be honest. I think I spent
it at the local dairy and pick and mix lollies,
and at that age it wasn't a lot, but just
those treats.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
And I suppose, I mean, you know, you say, you
know you weren't obviously thinking about this kind of company
and brand and things like that. But as say, a
teenager and growing up, were you someone who was aware
of makeup and beauty products and was interested in that?
Speaker 2 (03:16):
Not really. I grew up in the Waikato than we
had a stint in the West Coast, and I didn't
use skincare on makeup until eighteen nineteen. Until I was
a university I was a bit of a tomboy and
loved playing sport and thing out of nature, riding horses
and with my friends, and it wasn't really something on
my mind. I think more that was on my mind
(03:39):
as I've always sort of loved solving problems, a little
bit of a misfit and rebellious child at times, and
sort of challenging the status quos. So it was more
that immolution came from who I am as a person
rather than interest in wanting to have a skincare brand.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
Yeah, and I'm wondering, did you get you know, sort
of money and financial stuff and a sense of doing business.
Did you get that from from? I guess with the
farm and also with your dad being a you know,
a livestock agent, those are sort of quite sort of
business y type type of things, right.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
I think what I got from my parents is the
knowledge of just how hard work is, tenacity, and that
you know, nothing was below them. My mum had four
children and in the evenings when dad would get home
from working, she would go and clean the local banks.
And I think that taught me a lot of humility
(04:32):
and being willing to roll up my sleeves and do
things if it meant I could be better off, my
family could be better off.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
Yeah, I mean, do you do you recall a sense
of how, you know, how the financial situation felt generally
as a child or was it just something in the background.
I mean, was it a comfortable childhood or was it
a normal sort of middle class child and how did
you how did you sort of view it?
Speaker 2 (04:57):
I would say middle class. We didn't have a lot.
There was four of us. My parents were young when
they had us. They we always had opportunities, and if
we wanted to play sport or needed things for school,
or needed clothes and food on the table, that was
absolutely there. It wasn't the extras for overseas holidays or
especially coming to my teenage years, like clothing that I
(05:19):
wanted and things like that. But I think I always
learned from my parents. Really it is the simple things
that make you happy and something of yeah, yeah, were
you a good.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
Kid at school? I mean you said you're a bit rebellious.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
I I think I was good. I definitely challenged things
and asked a lot of questions, but I still did well,
I definitely wasn't the top of the class, but I
was someone that thought differently and could solve problems well.
And something I say to other kids like double down
(05:53):
on what you are good at and not worry so
much if you're not great at every subject at school.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
Yeah, I mean, were the subjects you chosen? Again? Going
through to university, were you sort on a career path
towards business?
Speaker 2 (06:06):
I started studying science at university, actually chemistry and biology,
and as additional papers, I did law papers and business
papers and started to do quite well in the business
papers and got asked to go into the honors side
of things at the Cargo University, and was also really
(06:27):
keen and put my hand up to work with local
Otago businesses to sort of help within their business and
solving their problems. And it was always the problem that
they didn't think it was, and I just naturally started
to go down that path and be more in client
and so went down more of a business path and
studied and finished a degree.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
I guess it's a great way to get some on
the ground experience too, to take what you're learning in
the classroom and apply it in the real world.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Absolutely, and I was fortunate for my final year I
did period in Barcelona at ASAD, which is one of
their top business schools, and it was a completely different
way of learning in that we were given from our
lecturers who worked in places like Google, real life business
challenges they were facing at that time to solve with them.
And I thrived in that and I absolutely loved that
(07:13):
that style.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
Yeah, my researcher points out, this is also where a
Tiger university, this is where you meet your husband. Is
that right?
Speaker 2 (07:20):
We did meet at Otago, but we didn't reconnect until
he came back from London and I was in Auckland
and we bumped into each other.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
And so so out of university, what was the first
first career step? You know, what was the first job?
Speaker 2 (07:35):
I actually went and worked in Wellington for the Business
round Table, so more in like the public policy space,
and like really enjoyed that job and my time there
in economics and understanding.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
So what era was that? I mean they sort of
changed name and evolved a bit later on.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
They Yes, it was when Roger Kerr was running and
learned a lot from Roger Kerr and Catherine who were
just phenomenal business people and good people and just.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
To get that economics grounding too. They'll be very focused
on that.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Absolutely I really did, and just the insights there and
really expanded my knowledge in that more political space. And
then move comes right too.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
I mean they were getting involved in all sorts of
political debates and all that sort of stuff. Were you
were you in the thick of.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
That, absolutely at the thick of that and getting to
you know, rub shoulders with some of the top CEOs
in New Zealand. I think what they instilled in me
is that like, you know, that wasn't out of reach,
and like having that exposure being part of those conversations
for hugely valuable for my confidence. It's such an early
stage of my career.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Yeah. Yeah, during that era, you know, your first sort
of job was a sort of a sense of finally
having a little bit of money or you know, I
know you obviously not a huge salary when you first
come out, but going from being a student and things,
was there a sense that you know that you were
on a financial path.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
It did? It did. It was, as you say, coming
out of a university and that salary like challenging and a
really good test to sort of budgeting and managing things.
And I remember Mecca actually was in the cokeldes and
stained building that I was in, and I'd walk past
it every lunch time and that was my kryptonite.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
Yeah yeah, things that you shouldn't it couldn't.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Quite afford totally.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Yeah, yeah. And so that in terms of you know,
executive career, Brother was the big break, is that right?
For You're there for eight years? How did you get
into Brother as a business?
Speaker 2 (09:37):
They were based in Wellington and I it was a
global business obviously, and I was really intrigued to go
more into a into a more of a business marketing
strategy role and it was one that had international opening
as well, so I was working across like Singapore and
Japan and the UK in the US and that really
(10:00):
interest me and so I played for it. I got
the role and then quickly worked my way up to
senior executive role and managing some big portfolios internationally. And
I think for me it was I was willing to
work a lot harder than anyone else, willing to speak
to that my child absolutely do the work that others
(10:24):
didn't want to do because it was below them, and
just my ability to solve problems that others.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
Yeah, and did that take you overseas?
Speaker 2 (10:31):
It did. I spent a lot of time in Japan, Nagoya,
and in Singapore and the UK and America, and so
that was absolutely fantastic for someone in their late twenties.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
Yeah, and you did as eight years? Does it sound right? Yeah?
I mean it's on one hand, it's quite a long
time to stay with the tech company. But on the
other hand, I guess sometimes people follow one company right through,
like you know, Christopher Luxen with Unilever and things. You know,
you can they have an amazing organization and ability to
switch roles. You wouldn't tempt to just to sort of
(11:06):
follow the career path right through, you know, with one
big organization.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Well, I was, and it was such a tricky decision
to make. Do I take this punt and launch a
company that I was starting from scratch? There was no
guarantees or I had this opportunity with brother to go
on to become a director, potentially the one of the
first female CEOs of the company. And I had to
(11:33):
make a call, which was tough, but I believed that
if there's a backup plan, you're not going to go
all in and so I had no plan B. There
was no plan B. I had to five account of
all and go for it.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
Again. This is the research notes are telling me, and
I sort of not hesitate to mention it, but it
is a sort of life and death and the unfortunate
passing of your mother has been cited. You've cited as
one of the reasons for making the big MO. Was
that a driver?
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Yes, it was when everything really connected for me and
a moment of pause and reflection around my health and
way that I was living and coming into my thirties
and also trying to get pregnant. And I did a
lot of research into sleep and exercise and food, and
part of the research and discussions I had was with
(12:24):
my doctor where it was raised that hydroquinone that I
was using for hyperfigmentation was really questionable and something I
could should reconsider. I then thought, well, for me, what
I feel more comfortable with using is natural skincare that
seemed the most luxurious to me the best for my health.
And when I went to the market looking for natural
(12:45):
skin care that really worked and had science and evidence
and luxury aspect to it, it didn't exist. It was
a huge gap internationally for that, and I knew if
I wanted it, other people would want it to So.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
That's when I sort of moments where all the work
you've done to understand business and all that sort of
stuff comes together with a sort of very personal experience
about seeing a gap in the market. Absolutely, was it
a like a light bulb moment.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
It was because I genuinely didn't set out to launch
a skin care brand or a beauty brand. I came
across this this problem. It was me since a child,
but as a child loving solving problems, challenging things, having
this experience with business and working across multiple functions and
knowing how to pull together a business and a plan
(13:33):
and a strategy and products and going I think, you know,
I think I can do this, And there was something
that really lit up inside of me.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
It took three years to launch the brand. You know,
what was the process of doing that? Like, I mean,
you know, you're transferring skills, but obviously you know, from
the tech industry across to something a very different industry.
Did you have to sort of learn the basics of
the industry from the ground up?
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Steep learning curve? Absolutely, but anything is possible to put
your mind to it. I brought on a co founder,
Kimberly Morrison. We worked together at the time, and I
said to her one lunch time, I have this idea.
I really think there is something here and that we
can do something better and that exists on the market.
(14:27):
So we spent three years. We had to keep our
day jobs because we needed the money to fund this business,
and so we'd work in the day we both had
really full on jobs, and then every evening would be
online together every weekend, and then we'd take our leave
to work on the business. So I think wasn't the
case that we had a whole lot of money or
(14:47):
investment from the start that we could quote our jobs
to do both of them, which was challenging.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
Because it's an industry where you've got to look. I mean,
there's an element of glamour and sophistication all that you
can't sort of bluff that too easily, can you. How
do you sort of you know, without masses of capital investment.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
No, no, you we believe, you know, we believe in
the start of setting up a really robust global company,
and so always set out and establish that from the start.
I think at the start we were really clear on
the things that we would invest in and the non negotiables,
and that for us was the testing and the scientific
research behind the products to prove that they worked and
(15:30):
outperformed traditional skincare. So we just prioritized the way that
we invested, and we were just smart with how we
managed the cash flow and our approach to spend at
the start of the business to sort of get runs
on the board, get profitable to better put that back
into the company.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
And did you have a background in the marketing side.
I mean, you know, obviously you've put your name. Your
name is the brand, so it's kind of a all
in on the marketing, right.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
Yes, I did have background in marketing, and I felt
com with it being my name because so much of
it reflected the values that I have or the standards
I hold myself up to. And it was very much
a personal story and a brand that we want people
to connect with and feel that they're connecting with a
human on and so that's sort of some of the
(16:17):
reasons as to why it's called Emma Luisham. But did
have a background many in strategy. But I think if
you do.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
A play is it I mean it's helpful and that
you're able to you know, you're the person who's going
to sell that brand. Brand, it's kind of got your
name on it, but you you I guess it puts
you out there in the in the in the public
sort of space that maybe you're not if you're an
executive at Brother. Was that a challenge? I mean, all
(16:46):
all that kind of end of the marketing world.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
It's been unique and different. But I've really enjoyed that
part of it. And it looks like connecting with my
like our customers and connected with work.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Front facing social media all that sort of stuff.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Yes, exactly, I have a very private social media which
I connect with by brands and families. But the emmolition
one is very much the world of emolution and is
in the company and.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
Talking about the values and things. You take a very ethical,
you know, ethically grounded approach to the business, so no
animal testing, climate positive. As we mentioned earlier, you know
what was behind your desire to do it that way
and to sort of make better focus and also to
what extent do you have to do you feel that
there was is there a trade or for a sacrifice
(17:32):
on the pure financial when you do it that way.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Good questions from the start, and one of the other
light bulb moments that we had was that the beauty
industry needed reimagining, rethinking. The packaging side of things is
our largest carbon emitter, and it also generates one hundred
billion units of waste annually, which is then landfall or
being burnt. And we could see this and knew that
(17:54):
there must be a better way, and the way is
through circular thinking, circular models, refillable products, and taking ownership
for that material end of life, seeing it as precious
and taking it back, which we do through our emmiluition
and beauty circle. And so from the get go we
were solving two problems, natural products that worked and were luxurious.
And if we knew that, if we could achieve that,
(18:16):
we could change a business model, because people first and
foremost by exceptional products, then we give them a much
more sustainable model to operate within, which is our refills
and our return models. For me, it was always about
we knew this information. We really do dig deep into
the information. Because we knew it. We couldn't just carry
(18:37):
on with how it always been done. It wasn't the
right thing to do, the right thing to do is
to acknowledge that is a problem that we need to
own and take accountability for. So I think the are
the values about understanding, taking accountability, solving the hard problems,
and not just looking left and right and saying, well
everyone else is doing it, that's okay, that's not our way.
(19:00):
Truly think differently.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Yeah, I mean, I guess there's no way to corners though,
once you've committed to that. You know, was there ever
times when you were sort of lying awake at night
worrying about the financial side because of the you know,
there's got to be X. It pays off in the
long run, obviously, and it's paying off now, but you know,
when you're starting out, that extra outlay to do things
properly and do things ethically can be scary. I guess
(19:24):
it can be.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
But we're always playing the long game. I really believe
in that if you make those decisions for the long term,
and that did look like investing in huge amount of
packaging that was refillable because that didn't exist, and right
there and then that was challenging, but we knew that
that would pay off, and now our refillable products, our
refill sales are higher than our well manske it is
(19:48):
already paying off and.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
That is sort of transforming the way the industry works. Yes,
we saw that in one profile that you a former
Money Talks guest Rob Fife was an investor. How did
he get involved and how did you get How did
you go about getting those kind of investors involved pitching?
Speaker 2 (20:05):
It was actually through Sarah, his wife, who had used
the product and seen them a lurisham and we'd actually
just met to have to catch up and Sarah's obviously
also been successful in business, and just to get some
advice from her and her like lending in air, and
(20:26):
it really developed from there. We aligned, we had good conversations.
We then met Rob and it was just a natural next.
He loves r brand he does he does and ones
that are really wanting to achieve on a global.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
Yeah, that's right, taking it out to the world. Yes,
one sort of tough question here, but you know, cost
of living crisis and you know all the recessionary stuff
that we're going through right now. I mean, you know,
high end beauty products are sort of a luxury item.
How do you sort of focus the you know, the
marketing and the sales around those sort of issues when
(21:01):
we go through going through a tough.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
Time for us. We genuinely believe in quality over quantity.
You buy one product with their mother or shim that
is the equivalent of four to five others. We really
do pack incredible value into each product, and we've always
wanted to make luxury more accessible. For the craftsmanship of
(21:24):
those products, the investment that we put into research and testing,
and the level of innovative ingredients and concentrations of them,
we genuinely could charge twice the amount, but we don't
because that's been a guiding principle of the brand. You
pay for what you're going to get, and for me,
I want to create the very best products in the
(21:46):
world and ship those to customers, and I hand on
heart know that they are getting that and they're getting
really good value. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
I mean, do you get involved in the science side.
I mean you mentioned a bit of a bit of
science and chemistry at school.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
Absolutely, I love it. I really involved with our new
product development team ol scientists. I've even gone back to
do study and courses with Harvard and physiology and biochemistry.
It's an area that I continue to personally invest in.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
And that adds a lot of value to the brand.
I guess the fact that you're not just the face
of it, you're actually involved in the production of the study.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
It really hands on with it. I still sign off
every batch that's produced to make sure that it. Wow,
that's the quality I expect.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Yeah, we've got a few quick fire questions. Sort of
almost touched on this earlier, but you know, what's the
poorest you've ever been?
Speaker 2 (22:43):
I think living in Barcelona as a student. That was tough.
It's expensive in Europe, but it was also incredibly happy
and I loved that.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
So you were at Target University and then I didn't exchange,
exchanged to Barcelona, so this was a high school.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
It was a university university, my final university. I did
my finish my degree in Barcelona, which was an incredible opportunity.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
And so you're poor but in a beautiful place. Yes, yes,
you walk around and stuff what.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
Was still so beautiful and you just may may do Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
Yeah, what's the most indulgent purchase you've ever made?
Speaker 2 (23:20):
I remember buying my parents' Rugby World Cup twenty fifteen.
It must have been the all black Australian Final tickets,
which was incredibly expensive for my wage at the time,
but I'm so glad. I did you know? It was
such a sme short, special moment my mum and dad,
and my mum had been really sick at the time,
(23:41):
so that was extravagant.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Kind of thing that you never regret, right, you never regret? No, yeah,
along those lines. But you know, sort of more looking forward,
I guess do you still have things that you've fantasize
about buying one day? Like, you know, is there a
dream car or a dream bad somewhere or something.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
I honestly feel that I've got everything that I need.
I think as you get older in life, you realize
that the material things don't make you happy. I think
for me, it's more wanting to buy more time, more
time with my daughter, with my family, with my friends
than material things.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Yeah, I mean, it's a look, it's probably a relevant
point to ask this question that we always ask. And
but you know, how much is making money important to
you or how much of that is just sort of
a byproduct of success?
Speaker 2 (24:36):
It is a byproduct. I love having a purpose and
having a job where I'm really solving real problems and
having an impact on people's lives.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
Do you still imagine winning lotto, and if so, how
much do you imagine winning?
Speaker 2 (24:53):
No? I hear that people that win lotter are really unhappy,
which makes sense, right, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
Well, I was like, I don't by a lot of tickets,
but when I imagine winning it, I only ever imagine
winning a few hundred thousand or something. The idea of
winning a hundred million and turning upside down doesn't sound
very appealing to me.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
I genuinely believe if you're not if you're waiting for
a pot of gold or a goal in the future
to be happy, you'll never be happy. It's about genuinely
being happy with where you are and your circumstances. And
so that's my.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
Philosophy to it. And I guess you know. So the
goals you're setting are around apart from family stuff, I guess,
but around the business and where you want it to be.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
And my personal goals. I think I've grown so much
as a person through this experience, and it's challenged and
stretched and grown me and leveled me up. And they
are the goals I have for the business and personally
and my family.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
Yeah. One thing we sort of well, we always ask
people if we can make your Prime Minister for the
day or you know, ruler of New Zealand for a day.
You know, what's something you would do to Sometimes I
say address economic inequality, but in this case I'd sort
of say, well, or environmental issues or something that you're
passionate about. If you could sort of bring in a
(26:07):
big policy to change change the country or change the world,
what would be your focus.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
I think that businesses need to take more accountability for
what they bring into the world, and I think that
there needs to be more government regulation and changes in
that space to hold businesses to account. I don't think
it should be all on the government to pick up
the issues of businesses and what they do, or all
in cut up to customers and consumers as well. So
(26:36):
I think more rigor accountability.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
Yeah, sure, I mean it sounds like you're not advocating
sort of a strict legislative approach or would you, you know,
would you toughen environmental rules or would you sort of
are you I guess I'm getting out as a quick
question about how intense you think government should get involved
in business regulation and that sort of thing.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
I would hope to think that businesses do the right
thing right and we are not waiting for the government
to regulate or legislate on anything. I think that we
want to be well ahead of that. But then we'll
need to come a time where there is more regulation
and toughness from a government perspective to meet business and
(27:17):
challenge business and what they're doing in the way that
they're acting.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
Sure. Yeah. And look, finally, Emma, just coming back to
the brand and how it's going. How is the global
roll out going in that ambition of becoming a global brand.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
Really well, we're thrilled. Australia is now our largest market.
Last year we launched into the UK with the retail
called Space and K which is equivalent to Mecca, and
are now in all of their doors as well as
Harrod's and Liberty More. The further expansion in the US
this year. So just yeah, it's been an incredible reception globally.
(27:54):
I think for us we're still very young four and
a half years old, and we see the Australasia is
still a very key markets that we want to get right.
So although we are growing internationally, we're doing it in
a really measured and thoughtful way and not at the
compromise to what we're delivering here.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
Sure, and I guess you've also got to be careful
about growing the organization too fast. Is it organic or
how do you how do you approach it from a
business point of.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
View, because art and science is of wanting to do
so in a way that's sustainable for our people, our operations,
how we're doing things, but at the same time being
able to manage that growth and execute on that growth
incredibly well. So it's about always looking ahead and where
(28:41):
we're going to be in twelve eighteen months and preparing
for that rather than preparing for where we are now.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
Sure, Emma, thank you very much for being here, great
for having me, Thanks, thank you, thanks for listening to
this episode of Money Talks. If you want to get
in touch, drop me a line at Liam dot Dan
at enzed me dot co dot zid and you can
read more from me at inzidherld dot co dot zid.
Thanks to my producer Ethan Sills and sound engineer LeAnn McDonald.
(29:11):
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