January 22, 2025 • 10 mins
An early return to New Zealand is highly unlikely for 56-test All Blacks first-five Richie Mo'unga.
The 30-year-old's agent Cam McIntyre has confirmed his Japanese club and New Zealand Rugby were in talks to forgo the final year of his three-year contract.
But those discussions have stalled and - despite All Blacks coach Scott Robertson being keen to have his Crusaders' talisman back this July - the earliest Mo'unga could return to the All Blacks would be the middle of next year.
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Duncie Wildergrave
from News Talk SEDB.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Coming up eleven past seven, Wednesday, twenty second over January
edge to the All Blacks through Super Rugby. We go
now looking at the non return of Richie Muwanga at
the moment from Tashiba back into the All Blacks to
discuss that kind of Mansbridge and Crusader's Chief executive officer
joins us now today may welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Curre to to ask how are you mate?
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Very very well start of a fresh air only what
how far away?
Speaker 3 (00:41):
We're only a.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Few weeks away from the start of super season. That's bizarre.
It's crept up quicknt it.
Speaker 4 (00:47):
It has a physical head out for our boys on
Friday morning, and then we've got the long run where we.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
Do some work with Child Cancer Foundation, try to some
money for.
Speaker 4 (00:56):
Them, and then we've got the following week we've got
a pre season in Kerwee with the Blues and then
Dan and Vicago with the Highlanders.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
And then she's all going with the Hurricanes on the
on the fourteenth.
Speaker 4 (01:07):
So yeah, it's lovely to see people running around the
field doing some code.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
That's for sure, it's nice and it's nice to see
it in the sun.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
The thing news coming through today is the Richie Muwanga story.
It's a story that won't go away. And now we
find ourselves in the situation where it looks like he's
not going to come back and be selected to be
an All Black, but it's still an ongoing situation. The
negotiation possibly won't stop according to his agent anyway. So
where do we sit right here in your eyes around
(01:35):
the alibility of the alibility of Richie Muwanga? What has
to happen for him to return to be an All Black?
Can he break his contract? Is there a possibility of
a sabbatical?
Speaker 3 (01:46):
What did Zealand Rugby want?
Speaker 2 (01:47):
What are they trying to do?
Speaker 3 (01:48):
Can you make head or tail of this kind?
Speaker 4 (01:51):
It is difficult does and I have a great deal
of sympathy for them, you know, you think about Razor
and New Zealand Rugby's job is to get the best
possible team they can possibly get, so they're always going
to be testing the system to see how they can
get that.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
You know, System's done a pretty.
Speaker 4 (02:06):
Good job and served the All Blacks and serve New
Zealand Rugby for a long period of time, so you
do have to be a bit careful about, you know,
building exceptions or setting precedents that that undermine that system.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
And I think that's probably the other side of the coin.
Speaker 4 (02:22):
You know, on the one hand, you want to have
the best available players that you can have at any
point in time, but then in doing something, you don't
want to sort of chop the legs of the system
off and make it less effective than it's been. And
it's fair to say over a long period of time
it's been a significant contributor to the New Zealand rugby
development system, the All Black team. I understand that there
(02:45):
needs to be some care The other thing is, you know,
you know, players make some choices and things change.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
But you know that's that's sort of life, isn't it.
Speaker 4 (02:54):
You know, it's it's hard to rewrite the rewrite contracts
and that after they've been done.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
Okay, so he's got a three year contract, it's completely
one very successful year. He's in the middle of year
number two and he's got one more year to go.
If the ends are were to be a little flexible
on this. In your role as a CEO, you get this.
I hope could he finish his contract into Sheba, come back,
(03:22):
sign a deal to play in New Zealand, play with
the All Blacks, and part of that deal means his
sabbatical clause pops in, so he can go straight back
to to Sheeba again, finish his last year and come back.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
Would that work?
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Is that the kind of I suppose workings that ins
will be looking to achieve. If they stay their rules,
it'll be that simple.
Speaker 4 (03:44):
I think the challenge though, is and it's always difficult
when you're talking about a person or an event in
the context of a strategy.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
So the more we.
Speaker 4 (03:54):
Look at this, there's always going to be a way
for an individual to deal with an individual vent and
I'm not sure that's particularly helpful because you know, if
you tried to build a strategy around and individuals, you're
going to end up in a situation when your strategy is.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
That complex and that difficult, it's not going to be
helpful for anybody.
Speaker 4 (04:14):
People aren't going to get clarity on how they can
manage their careers and where.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
They need to go.
Speaker 4 (04:19):
So I'm not sure. I'm not sure putting poor or
Richie in the middle of this is helpful for anybody.
I actually think we've got to be really careful about
systems and unintended consequences. So we think about it from
a super perspective, in particularly in Crusader's environment.
Speaker 3 (04:34):
What we think about our.
Speaker 4 (04:35):
Job is to engage fans, excite them about the game,
have them interested in the game, and that there's this
fan piece. The second piece is our job is to
grow athletes to represent our national team, and we do
that hopefully by winning some championships on the way. But
if you think about that second one, you go changing
the system, Willy Linnleary, you're in response to this or
(04:58):
that event, you actually give the players less certainty and
less clarity in the way that they can manage their careers.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
And we all have different views later.
Speaker 4 (05:09):
In life about oh my opinions changed, But these are
a lot of these athletes are making five ten year
career decisions.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
So I think.
Speaker 4 (05:18):
We serve them best by giving them some clarity, being
really precise and working on their development so they can
come through that system be a great all black and
then and then hopefully also you know, quite and.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
Well for them and their family later in life.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Colin Man's been CEO of SADA joins us. But that
proposition are put to you before. If he was to
come back for the All Black season at the end
of a current TASBA season, if he's signed with his
Zeland rugby, he has to sign I think with a
super club and then he can put his sabbatical into
(05:54):
effect after the next Sheba season.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
Is it that simple or is it slightly more complex
than that.
Speaker 4 (06:00):
I think you're trying to make it too simple.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
Dark And the thing I love about you make.
Speaker 4 (06:04):
The thing I love about you is you do make
these things really simple.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
But they of course they're not that simple.
Speaker 4 (06:10):
And I'm loath to talk about Richie's situation, but I
am I am keen to talk about the strategy, and
the strategy has served New Zealand rugby. Well you even
look at last year, look at the the number of
players and say second row and when we thought we
were a bit light there and then suddenly second rowers
(06:30):
start showing what great skill they've got and what great
depth we've got there. So and that speaks to the
quality of the development that's gone on in the in
the system, So in.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
The triefs and the Hurricanes in particular last year.
Speaker 4 (06:45):
So you've just got to be a bit careful of
if you if you chop their legs off and you say, right, actually,
we're not going to set up a system that they
can keep developing players, then then you do end up
with you do end up in a worst case scenario,
bit like England and the e PL.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
You know, it's a competition full of foreigners.
Speaker 4 (07:06):
They're they're taking people from anywhere and does it help
them when World Cups.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
I'm not sure it does.
Speaker 4 (07:13):
So I think I think we've got to just be
real careful with exceptions and preferably not put individual players
under pressure to use them as the exception.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
Example when we're talking about it.
Speaker 4 (07:26):
I think if there's a if there was a strategic
reset required, I think calm, thoughtful minds should get around
the table and work through the pros and cons.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
But yeah, we've got to be a bit care for that,
putting individuals under pressure.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Yeah, looking at the greater good and not making a
knee jerk decision that will affect the New Zealand rugby
long term.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
Look, they're their rules.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
They can apply what they want and do what they want,
but they've got to be cognizant of the bigger picture essentially.
Speaker 4 (07:54):
Yeah, and I think and the other thing just just
just to remember is if you think about the athletes
that come through the system and what the system does.
So the super rugby system essentially underwrites New Zealand's high
performance development costs. And so if you start pulling a
lever on this side of the machine, and you pull
a lever and you take out all the viability of
(08:16):
that system, then suddenly you get what you want on
the short term tick, so to speak, but then you
actually undermine the whole system going forward. So suddenly you know,
you get a player this year, this week, but then
you don't get anybody in your pipeline for the week after,
the week after and the week after. And so we
just have to be a little careful, just a wee
(08:39):
bit careful about responding to an event and changing the
whole system.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
And that it looks back to what you're talking about
second rowers and the perceived lack of faith in the
first five stocks. If they move mountains to get Richie
maing about what damage that does and the inability for
the grass sheets to.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
Actually come through. It is complex. I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
I try and make it simple. Colin Mansbridge. It's just
the way I roll. I wish the world was much
more like that. So you understand what ends you are
are doing, and you don't see in an individual case
then changing immediately. It needs to be something that's really
looked into for the greater good over a long period
of time.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
I think so.
Speaker 4 (09:25):
I think it's going to be very thoughtfully executed. Anything so,
and we'll always find an exception. The danger is if
you use the exception to drive the decision that then
you you know, you'll get all these unintended consequences.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
And I think you talk about it in particular.
Speaker 4 (09:42):
You know, players who are coming through schools and clubs,
the grassroots of our system at the moment, if they're
going to be making decisions about the potential for themselves
to be professional athletes in the future, they want to
be able to see that they've got a passway. Now
imagine if there is no super or there is no NPC,
the last thing you want is your players sort of thinking, actually, well,
(10:06):
I'm going to leave school at fifteen and going to
Australian Play, NRL or whatever it is. I think it's
just we've got to be really thoughtful about eligibility, and
it's not say it's not an important conversation and we
shouldn't have it.
Speaker 3 (10:21):
I just think we've got to be really thoughtful.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
For more from sports talk, listen live to news Talks
it'd be from seven pm weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Duncie Wildergrave
from News Talk SEDB.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Coming up eleven past seven, Wednesday, twenty second over January
edge to the All Blacks through Super Rugby. We go
now looking at the non return of Richie Muwanga at
the moment from Tashiba back into the All Blacks to
discuss that kind of Mansbridge and Crusader's Chief executive officer
joins us now today may welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Curre to to ask how are you mate?
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Very very well start of a fresh air only what
how far away?
Speaker 3 (00:41):
We're only a.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Few weeks away from the start of super season. That's bizarre.
It's crept up quicknt it.
Speaker 4 (00:47):
It has a physical head out for our boys on
Friday morning, and then we've got the long run where we.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
Do some work with Child Cancer Foundation, try to some
money for.
Speaker 4 (00:56):
Them, and then we've got the following week we've got
a pre season in Kerwee with the Blues and then
Dan and Vicago with the Highlanders.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
And then she's all going with the Hurricanes on the
on the fourteenth.
Speaker 4 (01:07):
So yeah, it's lovely to see people running around the
field doing some code.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
That's for sure, it's nice and it's nice to see
it in the sun.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
The thing news coming through today is the Richie Muwanga story.
It's a story that won't go away. And now we
find ourselves in the situation where it looks like he's
not going to come back and be selected to be
an All Black, but it's still an ongoing situation. The
negotiation possibly won't stop according to his agent anyway. So
where do we sit right here in your eyes around
(01:35):
the alibility of the alibility of Richie Muwanga? What has
to happen for him to return to be an All Black?
Can he break his contract? Is there a possibility of
a sabbatical?
Speaker 3 (01:46):
What did Zealand Rugby want?
Speaker 2 (01:47):
What are they trying to do?
Speaker 3 (01:48):
Can you make head or tail of this kind?
Speaker 4 (01:51):
It is difficult does and I have a great deal
of sympathy for them, you know, you think about Razor
and New Zealand Rugby's job is to get the best
possible team they can possibly get, so they're always going
to be testing the system to see how they can
get that.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
You know, System's done a pretty.
Speaker 4 (02:06):
Good job and served the All Blacks and serve New
Zealand Rugby for a long period of time, so you
do have to be a bit careful about, you know,
building exceptions or setting precedents that that undermine that system.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
And I think that's probably the other side of the coin.
Speaker 4 (02:22):
You know, on the one hand, you want to have
the best available players that you can have at any
point in time, but then in doing something, you don't
want to sort of chop the legs of the system
off and make it less effective than it's been. And
it's fair to say over a long period of time
it's been a significant contributor to the New Zealand rugby
development system, the All Black team. I understand that there
(02:45):
needs to be some care The other thing is, you know,
you know, players make some choices and things change.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
But you know that's that's sort of life, isn't it.
Speaker 4 (02:54):
You know, it's it's hard to rewrite the rewrite contracts
and that after they've been done.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
Okay, so he's got a three year contract, it's completely
one very successful year. He's in the middle of year
number two and he's got one more year to go.
If the ends are were to be a little flexible
on this. In your role as a CEO, you get this.
I hope could he finish his contract into Sheba, come back,
(03:22):
sign a deal to play in New Zealand, play with
the All Blacks, and part of that deal means his
sabbatical clause pops in, so he can go straight back
to to Sheeba again, finish his last year and come back.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
Would that work?
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Is that the kind of I suppose workings that ins
will be looking to achieve. If they stay their rules,
it'll be that simple.
Speaker 4 (03:44):
I think the challenge though, is and it's always difficult
when you're talking about a person or an event in
the context of a strategy.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
So the more we.
Speaker 4 (03:54):
Look at this, there's always going to be a way
for an individual to deal with an individual vent and
I'm not sure that's particularly helpful because you know, if
you tried to build a strategy around and individuals, you're
going to end up in a situation when your strategy is.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
That complex and that difficult, it's not going to be
helpful for anybody.
Speaker 4 (04:14):
People aren't going to get clarity on how they can
manage their careers and where.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
They need to go.
Speaker 4 (04:19):
So I'm not sure. I'm not sure putting poor or
Richie in the middle of this is helpful for anybody.
I actually think we've got to be really careful about
systems and unintended consequences. So we think about it from
a super perspective, in particularly in Crusader's environment.
Speaker 3 (04:34):
What we think about our.
Speaker 4 (04:35):
Job is to engage fans, excite them about the game,
have them interested in the game, and that there's this
fan piece. The second piece is our job is to
grow athletes to represent our national team, and we do
that hopefully by winning some championships on the way. But
if you think about that second one, you go changing
the system, Willy Linnleary, you're in response to this or
(04:58):
that event, you actually give the players less certainty and
less clarity in the way that they can manage their careers.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
And we all have different views later.
Speaker 4 (05:09):
In life about oh my opinions changed, But these are
a lot of these athletes are making five ten year
career decisions.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
So I think.
Speaker 4 (05:18):
We serve them best by giving them some clarity, being
really precise and working on their development so they can
come through that system be a great all black and
then and then hopefully also you know, quite and.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
Well for them and their family later in life.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Colin Man's been CEO of SADA joins us. But that
proposition are put to you before. If he was to
come back for the All Black season at the end
of a current TASBA season, if he's signed with his
Zeland rugby, he has to sign I think with a
super club and then he can put his sabbatical into
(05:54):
effect after the next Sheba season.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
Is it that simple or is it slightly more complex
than that.
Speaker 4 (06:00):
I think you're trying to make it too simple.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
Dark And the thing I love about you make.
Speaker 4 (06:04):
The thing I love about you is you do make
these things really simple.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
But they of course they're not that simple.
Speaker 4 (06:10):
And I'm loath to talk about Richie's situation, but I
am I am keen to talk about the strategy, and
the strategy has served New Zealand rugby. Well you even
look at last year, look at the the number of
players and say second row and when we thought we
were a bit light there and then suddenly second rowers
(06:30):
start showing what great skill they've got and what great
depth we've got there. So and that speaks to the
quality of the development that's gone on in the in
the system, So in.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
The triefs and the Hurricanes in particular last year.
Speaker 4 (06:45):
So you've just got to be a bit careful of
if you if you chop their legs off and you say, right, actually,
we're not going to set up a system that they
can keep developing players, then then you do end up
with you do end up in a worst case scenario,
bit like England and the e PL.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
You know, it's a competition full of foreigners.
Speaker 4 (07:06):
They're they're taking people from anywhere and does it help
them when World Cups.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
I'm not sure it does.
Speaker 4 (07:13):
So I think I think we've got to just be
real careful with exceptions and preferably not put individual players
under pressure to use them as the exception.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
Example when we're talking about it.
Speaker 4 (07:26):
I think if there's a if there was a strategic
reset required, I think calm, thoughtful minds should get around
the table and work through the pros and cons.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
But yeah, we've got to be a bit care for that,
putting individuals under pressure.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Yeah, looking at the greater good and not making a
knee jerk decision that will affect the New Zealand rugby
long term.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
Look, they're their rules.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
They can apply what they want and do what they want,
but they've got to be cognizant of the bigger picture essentially.
Speaker 4 (07:54):
Yeah, and I think and the other thing just just
just to remember is if you think about the athletes
that come through the system and what the system does.
So the super rugby system essentially underwrites New Zealand's high
performance development costs. And so if you start pulling a
lever on this side of the machine, and you pull
a lever and you take out all the viability of
(08:16):
that system, then suddenly you get what you want on
the short term tick, so to speak, but then you
actually undermine the whole system going forward. So suddenly you know,
you get a player this year, this week, but then
you don't get anybody in your pipeline for the week after,
the week after and the week after. And so we
just have to be a little careful, just a wee
(08:39):
bit careful about responding to an event and changing the
whole system.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
And that it looks back to what you're talking about
second rowers and the perceived lack of faith in the
first five stocks. If they move mountains to get Richie
maing about what damage that does and the inability for
the grass sheets to.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
Actually come through. It is complex. I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
I try and make it simple. Colin Mansbridge. It's just
the way I roll. I wish the world was much
more like that. So you understand what ends you are
are doing, and you don't see in an individual case
then changing immediately. It needs to be something that's really
looked into for the greater good over a long period
of time.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
I think so.
Speaker 4 (09:25):
I think it's going to be very thoughtfully executed. Anything so,
and we'll always find an exception. The danger is if
you use the exception to drive the decision that then
you you know, you'll get all these unintended consequences.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
And I think you talk about it in particular.
Speaker 4 (09:42):
You know, players who are coming through schools and clubs,
the grassroots of our system at the moment, if they're
going to be making decisions about the potential for themselves
to be professional athletes in the future, they want to
be able to see that they've got a passway. Now
imagine if there is no super or there is no NPC,
the last thing you want is your players sort of thinking, actually, well,
(10:06):
I'm going to leave school at fifteen and going to
Australian Play, NRL or whatever it is. I think it's
just we've got to be really thoughtful about eligibility, and
it's not say it's not an important conversation and we
shouldn't have it.
Speaker 3 (10:21):
I just think we've got to be really thoughtful.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
For more from sports talk, listen live to news Talks
it'd be from seven pm weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio
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