July 16, 2025 • 42 mins
One of New Zealand’s most ambitious startups, Zenno Astronautics, is undertaking pioneering work with superconducting magnets to address one of the most pressing challenges facing humanity’s future in space - space junk.
On The Business of Tech podcast this week, Max Arshavsky, co-founder and CEO of Zenno Astronautics, charts his journey from the steppes of Siberia to the University of Auckland, where in 2017 he founded Zenno Astronautics with Sebastian Wieczorek and William Haringa.
His motivation? To build technologies that can make space exploration more sustainable and less dependent on Earth’s finite resources.
“The vision I have is that technologies in space should be independent of Earth when it comes to reliance on fuel or radiation protection or an ability to construct anything,” Arshavsky, who is now a New Zealand citizen, told me.
“We should be able to construct things in space, and they should be autonomous.”
Listen to the full interview with Zenno Astronautics Max Arshavsky on episode 107 of The Business of Tech, powered by 2degrees Business, on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to the Business of Tech powered by Two Degrees Business.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm Peter Griffin.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Each week I'm bringing you stories and insights behind the
innovators shaping our digital future from right here in Artairoa.
This week we're taking you to the very edge of
what's possible in space technology, an area New Zealand has
become a real credible contributor to internationally, really on the
back of the success of rocket Lab. My guest is
(00:31):
Max Arshawski, co founder and CEO of Zeno Astronautics, which
is developing super conducting magnets for satellites and spacecraft, a
technology that could change how we move, protect, and assemble
things in space. Given the fact that by twenty thirty
we could have fifty thousand or more active satellites in space,
(00:53):
that's a huge opportunity for Zeno, which is doing all
of this from its base in Auckland, New Zealand, where
recorded this episode of the Business of Tech. Zeno's technology
is already an orbit on a satellite and they're working
with partners from Japan to Europe, proving that world leading
innovation can and does happen right here. In this episode, Max,
(01:16):
who is a new Zealand citizen shares his journey from
the frozen steps of Siberia to the cutting edge of
our space sector. We talk about how Zeno's super conducting
magnets could save satellites up to twenty five percent of
their fuel, extend mission life spans, and even help tackle
the growing problem of space debris.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
We also touch on.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Something I didn't really know about the potential for these
magnetic fields created by the super conducting magnets to protect
spacecraft from radiation, something that's been the holy grail for
space engineers. So if like me, you're fascinated by space
and a tech used in space, or you just love
a story of bold Kiwi entrepreneurship, you won't want to
(02:00):
miss this conversation. Here's my interview with Max Oshovsky of
xeno Astronautics. So Max's been looking forward to meeting you
and having you on the show. Welcome to the Business
of Tech.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
How are you doing. I'm doing very well. Thank you,
Thanks for having me well.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
I think you're putting a brave face on it. You've
been a bit ill from just having come back from
the US. You picked up some bug there, so I
really appreciate you going ahead with the interview, given that
you've been sort of throwing up this morning, but it
just shows the dedication to the mission at Zeno Astronautics,
and we're going to get into that. But first off,
(02:41):
I just want to delve into your origin story because
it's really interesting. Obviously you're from Russia. It's an interesting
time to be a Russian in business and what goes
along with that, which you're welcome to touch on if
you want to. But I'm really interested in, you know,
coming out of Siberia, growing up in Siberia. Maybe start
(03:03):
there what that was like. Tide for kiwis to imagine
just how how cold and far away across the icy
tundra Siberia is.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Yeah, it's so different. Peter. I was born actually in
the last few months of the Soviet Union still existing. Wow,
and then it collapsed, you know, by the end of
the year. I was born in nineteen ninety one, and
I was born in the poorest region of Russia. It's
called ata Altai Mountains. Really, yeah, and that happens to
be the place where the first woman in space landed,
(03:35):
So it's the lending side of the first woman in space.
I was born just sixty kilometers away from the landing side.
There's like a monument there, so it's the only thing
of not really in there.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
Wow, that's pretty cool. Yeah, and so is your family
for a long for generations lived in Siberia.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
It's a bit hard to tell. I know, the last
maybe two generations lived there. But Siberia back in the
day was sort of a place where they would send
politically inconvenient individuals without the right to leave the legs, yeah,
the good legs. Yeah. So I think on both sides
my family is of that nature. So I know that
(04:12):
my great grandfather was a German, you know, and he
was executed by the Soviets for having German literature, I think,
and at his household and then the later admitted that
there was a mistake. But and I think on my
father's side it's Polish and Lithuanian. My last name is
Polish Polish Lithuanian background. Yeah, and my great grandmother is Ukrainian,
(04:35):
and I do have some Russian, you know background as well,
but it's just heavily mixed.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
It's just a reminder of how mixed that part of
the world is, Ukraine, Russia, Poland all of those countries.
The cultural lineage and heritage that place is fascinating. So
you grew grew up in Siberia, but at a very
young age obviously we're interested in engineering and mathematics to
(05:03):
the extent that what at fifteen, you secured a place
at the National Nuclear Research University in Moscow.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
That's right. Yeah, Actually it's a like I see him.
It's the formal definition of it. It's like a school
that is managed and run by the staff of the university,
and it's pretty much an early early admission to the university,
but you get to start studying a bit earlier kind
of thing. Yeah, but yeah, I got really fascinated with
physics and mathematics. I was good at it historically, but
(05:31):
I actually went to a humanities and arts school for
the first you know, nine years of my life. But
I really enjoyed mathematics and physics, and I went to Olympiads,
and then I kept going to Olympiads, and then it
started to you know, to just cons straight on it
fully and yeah, I learned you know, second and third
play place at the Mathematics and Physics Olympiad, and that
allowed me to get the admission to.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
The La C exciting and actually that you know, a
lot of scientists say having a background in humanities is
really valuable. It's that mix of the creativity of humanities
and science is actually so powerful.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
So you went and studied at the Lyceum. Yes, yeah,
I finished it for two years.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Finished for two years, and then by eighteen you're in
New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Yes, what happened? Question you weren't deported or exiled? Still
a bit of a puzzle. But at the time I
was thinking that I really wanted to be at a
place that is a part of the Western world that
has English as the primary language, but also something that
you know, as a society that has developed, but also
that has access to great nature. Because I come from Siberia,
(06:35):
I really missed nature living in Moscow for ten or
eleven years or so. And yeah, New Zealand looked like
a great place. And also at the time, like most
young people, I really wanted to take, you know, to
buy some time to think about what to apply myself to.
And I thought New Zealand is quiet enough for that
(06:55):
for me to be able to erect the answer.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
And then you sort of did a bit of a
pivot there into biomedical science.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
That will be at university, that's right. Yeah, I pivoted
a few times there. So I actually came to New
Zealand to study at Oakland Business School. My thinking was that,
you know, I was on the path to become an
engineer in Russia, in Moscow and the historically good engineering school.
So I thought, you know what, I really want to
be able to understand the world of finance, and you know,
the Soviet background, it's you know, communist background. You know,
(07:24):
I thought it was not the strongest place to medicated
about finance. So I went to New Zealand, went to
business school, did a foundational year first here in Oakland,
and then thought, no, way, a second, Actually I need
to understand engineering first. Because as I was studying, you know,
I thought that this was quite intuitive, like the you know,
the papers I was taking, they felt quite in churchive
(07:44):
stuff like, okay, I'd probably grasped with myself at a
later stage of that I need to but I probably
need to foundation of engineering first. So I switched. I
spoke to the to the head of the school, and
three quarters through the year, I asked to you know,
take papers to get ato engineering school first decline and
then he said, you know what, do you seem to
be really keen. So I'll let you sit the exams.
So if you can bust exams, I'll give you the
(08:06):
average for the rest of the test that you've missed
at the class average. And if you get to engineering godless,
that's great. You did, Yeah, and I did. You didn't
stay long.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
You came up with Zeno and a startup in twenty
seventeen and decided to put your degree on hold to
pursue that.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Yeah, you said something interesting, and I think this is
I found this interesting because I get a lot of
people saying to me in the business community in New
Zealand tall poppy syndrome, we don't tolerate failure here. It's
too small a country. Everyone knows each other. If you
fail and you burn people's money, you burn people, you
won't get a second chance. But you know, it's all
(08:45):
an interview where you said in New Zealand, if you're
a complete failure, you can try again. You're going to
have a house, you're going to have food, You're not
going to starve. And I never thought about it in
those terms. I thought about it in reputational terms, that's right.
But coming from Russia, I guess you know, you fail there,
you destitute potentially.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Yes, you're facing death, you know, yeah, especially in Siberia.
But yeah, I think you're right. Reputationally that may not
be maybe irrecoverable to fail on you know, like this
in New Zealand.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Didn't be though really shouldn't it. Failure is part of
taking risks.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
But I thought about it for a long time, and
I think, you know, we we cind of really afford
too much risky stuff as a nation. We don't have
too much resource, you know, we have to be very
responsible how we use resource. So maybe that's why we
don't like moonshots, you know. Yeah, it's like come on, yeah, yeah, yeah,
So it sort of makes sense. But I'm prepared to
face that risk, you know, publicly, because I think it's
(09:41):
worth the risk.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Yeah, what we're doing, and tell us about your moonshot
and the conception of that. In twenty seventeen, with the
the formation of Zeno Astronautics, and I mean by that
time we had rocket Lab in New Zealand was doing
quite well. Twenty seventeen it launched its first correct rocket.
So there was a lot of expectation on that, but
they proved the model. Uh and but really before then,
(10:06):
up until that point, we didn't have much of a
space industry here. But you obviously decided, you know, eight
years ago that this was the place to to launch
this idea and tell us about that.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
Yeah, first of all, have to say thank you to
Sir Peter Beeck for the work that he's done for
the aerospace, uh, you know sector in globally and for
zoned in particular. I remember I was volunteering at Stardom Observatory,
you know, so during the younger years, and I saw
a nosecone of I T one rocket from memory, that
(10:36):
rocket let launched. It's there, it was observatory. Yeah, and
you know I was while volunteering, I was sort of
looking trying to understand how to apply myself, you know,
and looking looking at seeing that no scan of that rocket.
Understanding that people actually building businesses in space and the
space is becoming, you know, open for business. You know,
(10:57):
that was very inspiring, and so I I in I
looked at the space industry and I realized were in
the very early days, and I sort of admittedly took
sometimes I think at the extreme, I know, extrapolated the extreme,
and I think, okay, that's just how my brain works.
And I thought about the industry the extreme, and I thought, okay,
we have when I have companies building rockets and satellites,
(11:18):
and you know, we're doing really good there. What's going
to happen in the long in the long term, And
I thought, in the long term, we really need to
ensure that we do it sustainably because you know, the
rate of collapse of the you know, Keslicer Skaate, I'm
sure familiar with the idea of Castlcker scade. It happens
very very fast if it were to happen. Just explain
(11:39):
that for our listeners, sorry, Keesslicker Skate. The idea is
the phenomenon of having so much space debris that we're
unable to reach orbit anymore. Yes, yes, And it occurs
due to you know, one or two collisions that you know,
sort of escalate like dominoes.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
Yeah. And when we start getting into constellations of satellites,
which we have now exactly we have eleven thousand satellites
up there or something, Yeah, and it takes one or
two of those to collide spread debris everywhere, and that.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Complicates the picture exactly. It may lock us out of
orbit for like one hundred years, you know. Yeah, So
first of all, thought about sustainability because I'm deeply passionate
about space and also, you know, I almost be in
a position where we're locked out of space. But also
I want to I really have a desire, and I
(12:27):
think it's important for us to ensure that the space
industry as it continues to develop, is independent of the
resource of Earth, you know. So I'll give you an example.
So currently rely on Earth based fuel that we bring
with us off to space, and we fuel are spacecraft
and then you know, to make them agile, but then
we run out of fuel and then the spacecraft is
(12:49):
no longer functional, you know. And it's okay for now,
you know, we can build great businesses, but I'M it's
a certain thing always, you know, long term at infinitem
and I'M the version I have is that technologies in
space should be in dependent of Earth resource when it
comes to reliance on fuel or radiation protection or an
ability to construct anything. You know, we should be able
to construct things in space and they should be autonomously
(13:11):
self sustaining. That the artie should be autonomously self sustaining
in space. And you know, I've also envisioned uh, you know,
artificial intelligence being hosted in space independent of Earth. And
perhaps there is a bit of a resonance with Elans thinking,
but his a solution to this is to move humans
to Mars. Yeah, my solution is, my suggestion is that
(13:37):
in order for us to understand the universe, we we
certainly need to recouple ourselves from Earth, but not necessarily
in the form of a human intellect. Perhaps in artificial
intelligence is sufficient, but in that case it needs to
be independent of us and independent of the Earth resource.
And it certainly in terms of the.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
Logistics and practicalities of sending weight matter like humans across
the universe, it's a lot better to seeing bits and
bytes exactly.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
My thinking is that, you know, humans, obviously we've evolved
for this Earth. We're made of the soil of this planet.
You know, it's going to be very hard even psychologically,
you know, to be on another planet, let alone you know,
restrict to other sort of issues. So yeah, I personally
wouldn't want to leave Earth move for fun, you know,
for a trip yea to space. That would be amazing.
Mark Crockett just did it good on here. Yeah, I
(14:27):
actual sent him an emails. Mark, there was a lowesome
so inspiring. Yeah, I'll totally do that. But you know,
like long term living, I think Earth is great for us.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
Yeah, but that idea of I guess the big limiting
factor with the satellite is you've only got so much
propellant that you can put on that satellite to position it,
reposition it, avoid it deorbiting. And I guess some satellites
have a lifespan of some of them three to five years. Yes,
(14:54):
only for various reasons. There's radiation this stuff up there
as well. But that key issue of having enough propellant
to keep it in orbit and reposition it as required
as a major limitation at the moment.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Isn't it. Yes, that is correct. Yes, So we have
multiple solutions to this problem that we're trying to apply globally.
We have electric thrusts that are highly highly efficient thrusters.
We're also working on refueling, you know, capabilities in orbits
so we can refuel that more more frequently, and fuel
storage in orbit as well. But from our end, from
(15:27):
Zeno's end, we're working on technologies that would allow you
to save some fuel throughout emission that you would have
normally spent on pointing your satellite the right way. So
when you go to space, you sell like tumbles. Just
like if you throw a rock in the space, it's
sort of tumbles, yeah, and you don't want it to tumble,
you know. You want the solar panels to point towards
the Sun. You want the camera to point towards the Earth,
(15:48):
you know, and you want it to be nice and controlled.
And for that we do use normally a combination of
technologies and in some orbits, in higher orbits, we use
fuel as a part of that, you know, as a
part of the solution. And that's what the xenotechnology allows
us to achieve to remove the need for fuel for
these for this application. Okay, So what I'm trying to do, Peter,
(16:11):
is we're trying to build a business that the bridges
where we're at now and the needs that we have
today in the more in the current industry, with the
you know, with the long term needs of the industry,
and uh, I think the solution. You know, something that
we're known for globally is don't know, is we're known
for pioneering a very unique technology. It's called superconducting magnets
(16:34):
for space applications. It sounds very nerdy, but the bottom
line is, you know, this technology allows us to generate
very strong linetic fields in space. They are very dense,
and they're very stable, and they are very efficient from
the power standpoint and mass and volume standpoint. You know,
it's really good. Like it's nice and functional, so to speak.
(16:55):
And these magnetic fields can be used to solve a
whole range of problems. But ultimately, you know, we're working
on the problem of detaching the dependency we have between
Earth and space. Yeah, and if we were to resolve
it a bit further, I think we can split into
three categories. I think these these magnets can help us
(17:16):
reduce the need for fuel in space, they can help
us protect us off some radiation of space. And these
magns can also enable sophisticated operations in space, like in
space assembly autonomous true, you know, easy going sort of
a large structure assembly in space. Because currently it's not
feasible and the way it would work for the listener
(17:37):
because it's actually not very complex from the idea standpoint.
If you think of holding a magnet in your hand
and then holding another magnet close to it, you feel
the force between them. That's really good. So now imagine
if one of them is a controllable magnet, so you
can control the you know, which way, you know, the
orientation of that magnet essentially, and that in the engineering
(17:59):
field is called anally an electromagnet, you know, so it's
a magnet on demand. You can control the strength and
which and which way points. And then essentially superconducting technology
allows us to make these magnets exceptionally powerful, like das
moving into more powerful than before and more efficient. And
we can then have these magnets on satellites and we
(18:20):
can control, uh, you know, where they go with respect
to Earth. Earth is a big magnet. We cannot control Earth,
but it has a big magnetic field and we can
interact with it. And then satellite, you know, you can
sense your positions with respect to Earth. You can also
position the satellite with respect to other satellites if they
are nearby and they have a magnet as well on board.
(18:40):
Just like you know, you can sort of build very
large structures in space autonomously, and you can have structures
that are dynamic that can rearrange their you know, shape
in space. You can build structures that they can update
quite easily. For example, you have a large you know,
a large structure that is built, you want to update
a component like a camera on it, or you know,
(19:00):
you can variously update this, you know, with this approach. Yeah,
and you can also make things last longer in space
because you can use these magnetic fields to deflect the
so called charge particle radiation. Yeah, big problem. That's a
holy grail. That's a big problem. I'm not cleaning. We've
solved it, but we are looking, you know. I mean
there's a lot of analytical work has been done around this,
and we now have unlocked this capability of having superconduction
(19:23):
magnez in space. So we're very much interested in, you know,
taking this further to see if we can actually fully
crack it. The idea there is very simple. So charge
particle radiation is they is the phenomenon of being bombarded
by very small, fast moving particles. You can think of
them as tiny magnets. I mean, they're not magnez, but
they charged. You know, they're either plus or minus whatever.
And yeah, so the way and space is full of
(19:46):
this radiation full of these particles, and some of them
move faster, and them move hyper fast, you know, and
they carry a lot more energy. The problem is that
when they move so fast and collide with either human
tissue or electronics, they create problems like they can actually
damage DNA within the cell, you know, and then you
end up with cancers whatnot. Or when they collide with electronics,
they can create perman damaged to electronics, to the spacecraft,
(20:08):
they can fully disable the spacecraft, or you know, the
best case, snary, they could create a temporary problems like
errors in the code in the computation. Yeah. So one
way to solve it is to of course deploy a
large magnetic field around the satellite so that these particles
can be deflected, you know, bounced off the satellite, which
is how Earth itself protects us. That's how we are
(20:30):
safe the ionosphere exactly. That's how we are safe on Earth.
You know, it works pretty good.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
So you got multiple applications of this, and again there's
a tie in with New Zealand because New Zealand has
a bit of a legacy with high temp produced superconducting magnets, right, yes, correct,
And so you know Robinson Research Institute, which you're partnering
with doing some work with, but the spinouts from that
multiple applications, most interestingly I think what you're doing, but
(20:59):
also open Star technology, Yes, amazing nuclear fusion startups and
Wellington livitating a magnet in the middle of this plasma reactor.
So the use of this technology is incredible.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
Yeah, I think New Zealand has a tremendous opportunity to
become like the global capital for superconducting work in general.
I mean open Star, you know, has made a lot
of they've they've had a lot of attention from from
press for their work. Robinson Research Institute, which is you know,
one of the world's leading institutes based in New Zealand,
(21:33):
have been researching superconductivity and pioneering a lot of stuff
and and xenostronotics. You know, we've pioneered the space use
cases of superconducting magnets on how to enable them for
space use in general.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
So we're talking about literally a box that you have developed.
I think you said it's like the size of a
bag of pineapple lamps. That's KWI analogy. So we're talking
about the magnets, the high temperature superconnecting magnets are contained
in this box that is basically bolted onto a satellite.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Yes, correct, So this box currently is the size of
a loaf of bread analogy. Yeah, but this is sort
of the probably one of the smaller sizes. But yes,
it has super connecting magnets on the inside, and that
it is bolted to a satellite, and that it ensures
the satellite has an ability to point the right way
(22:29):
without the needful fuel. It's fully powered by the sun
sol energy, and it has no consumable of any kind.
It even has no moving parts in one of the
in one instance, you know, for now we have one
moving part, but there's a design that has no moving
part at all. So it's beautiful technology, very stable, very scalable,
and I mean this is.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
Not a theoretical thing. You have a satellite in space
that has your technology on board.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
Yes, we have a tech demo mission in space since
December twenty one. We're currently we haven't announced it, but
we're currently on another spacecraft that is due for launch
later this year, and we anticipate softly another launch or
to the year after. Fantastic, So the first one do
you orbit this? This company? So what are they doing
(23:19):
with that satellite. This is a platform that de orbit
operates for technology demonstrations. So we had support from the orbit,
you know, to launch our mission.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
So it's been up there since the scene betweeny twenty three.
What sort of data are you getting back from it
to tell you how it's working your piece of equipment.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
Yeah, so we had a pretty dense period of conops operations,
a plane of operations, concert operations once in orbit, and
the objective for this technology was to increase technology readiness
slow all of this you know of this paradigm, so
(24:04):
to speak. And this paradigm consists of you know a
number of subsystems you know, power transfer, subsystem, cooling, thermal management, subsystem,
active thermal management, paster thoral management, mechanical, you know, electrical,
and there's there's a few things there. So we put
it all together in one box and we flew to
space to see what works what doesn't. Thankfully, everything worked,
Some of it worked better than you know, some that
(24:27):
worked you know, not twe hundred percent, but everything is
functional and so they give us a lot of peace
of mind that we're building something that is you know,
fully on track. And we've since stripped another unit that
is uh, you know, at least uh, you know, ten
times more powerful, right, and that creates some nay field
(24:47):
in in you know, in any direction is sort of
you know, we've taken a huge step forward and we
expect to be at full maturity by the end of
this year, meaning full technological maturity like products is good
to or no further work is needed. That's great.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
So each time you're iterating it, putting another device on
a satellite, it's just improving dramatically the performance of it.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
Yes, and the one you know I mentioned that we're
looking to hopefully, you know, build another iteration for the
next year that would be again twenty stems more powerful.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
Yeah, in the same format, and let's click the I
read the market for satellite propulsion in that is like
eleven billion dollars a year.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
It's a big market.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
Yeah, small in terms of the overall space market, but
everyone is looking as they put more constellations of satellites
into space, they're looking for a better way to power
these satellites.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
So it's a booming market. Yeah, one hundred percent of
the booming market. We well, we can operate in the
market of satellite altitude control. We choose not to compete
in that market, or rather not to provide any services there. Instead,
we're in the market of attitude control, which is satellite pointing,
and where we are a complement to reaction wheels and mucanino. Yeah,
(26:02):
where a complement direction was there and the markets around
three to four billion dollars.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
Right, Yeah, And so the satellite that's up there at
the moment is probably forty or fifty kg.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Something like that. I think that one is around to fifty.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
Okay, so it's a bit bigger. But we're talking here
about your technology being able to to point a small satellite,
but you're also talking about potentially space stations at.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
Some point direct Actually may we all see it from here?
Our listeners will not be able to. But there's a
giant golden ring that is thinking under the ceiling here.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
It's a fully functional piece of technology. It was built
to increase It was built with the idea in mind
of putting it around a space station. It's four point
eight meters and diameter. It's a superconducting ring like a
wedding ring. And the guys that around the space station
and then it takes care of its attitude of its pointing.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
Wow. Yeah, and obviously replacing the International Space Station, but
the NASA wants to put stations in lunar orbit that's
as well, so that's going to be a booming market
as well.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
So correct lunar lunary is exciting. Let's you know, there's
a few companies that are commercial that are working in
a direction, but still early days, you know, Luner, but
I think we'll get there in the next decade or so.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
So you raised about ten and a half million dollars
in twenty twenty two, and a little bit more I
think last year.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
Yeah, a bit more than ten last year, but we
haven't announced the number. But the bottom line is we're
sufficiently funded, you know, to do what is needed, and
we have you know, we're in a good position to
build the business. And yeah, we're spending a bit of
time working without partners in Japan, in Europe and in
(27:44):
the States on various use cases of this technology.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
Yeah, you're about to hit to Japan, so it's obviously
a key market fee. You don't hear so much about
them and the you know, all the retoric around SpaceX
and rocket Lab and that you don't hear some about
what the Japanese are doing, but some incredible work going
on there the Qshue Space Hub. They're involved in lunar missions.
The Japanese and an A group, the big aerospace company
(28:11):
and airline.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
You've done a partnership with them, Yes, they were actually
are partly owned by Ana. Now they've invested and so
have Mitsubishi Electric and yeah. I mean Japan has historically
been involved in the in the space sector or mostly
on the government level, but they have a very booming,
you know, startup ac system these days. I think have
(28:33):
at least one hundred and fifty companies there and they're
investing from memory at least a billion United States dollars
per year into the public sector and to the private
sort of private startup companies, right, Yeah, so they're they're
catching up with the rest of the world, with America
in particular.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
Yeah, and they're obviously interested in the same thing, putting
up constellations and being able to control them more efficiently
in that what is the sort of the the efficiency
gain that you sort of foreseeing in terms of the
duration of emission and being able to keep a satellite
in space longer through the use of this sort of
(29:11):
technology not being so fully reliant on propellant and also
the cost implications of that having more space to play
with on a satellite potentially and wait to play with
because you don't have to have as much fuel on board.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
Yeah, this one is a bit hard to answer as
a as a as a you know answer that I'm
sort of you know, everything at once. But so as
it all thumb, maybe around twenty to twenty five percent
of fuel can be saved. It's quite material with our
first product in market, which is called A zero one
or otherwise known as supertalk supertur. Yeah. I was told
(29:47):
it's a much sexier name than zet don't want so okay, superterical,
let's call it seratokra. Shout out to Jim Hafkey, the
head of Auckland Problem for Space Systems at the University
of Auckland, who is the first thing being to use
that word. When I explained to him the concept, he
was like, oh, it's just a super talker, brilliant. So
(30:10):
so yeah, so that's that's considerable.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
If you if you only have to put substantially less
fuel on your satellite, that's saving you money.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
Yeah, you could put some amount of fuel, but you
can do more, more and more with it. Yeah, you
can be there for longer, more agile, or you can
be equally as agile but for longer. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
Yeah, So you've got the zero one super talker, you're
working on new iterations off that. Where are you at
in terms of testing around the using that technology against
radiation in space?
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Good one, very keen to. We've done a bit of
work on this analytical work and we've also built that,
you know, a a device, the the Larcial de Ice.
I mentioned earlier. This is something it's hard to do
as a startup based in New Zealand, that is, you know,
trying to also you know, operate as a commercial company.
(31:09):
This is this is something that I would need to
do in partnership with either a large you know, with
either research institute or a large commercial player. So I
guess we're you know, hunting for someone who want to
do it with us. There's a lot of research we're
going on around the world on this. I think Europeans
are moving on this as well. Yeah, for us, we've
(31:29):
concentrated so far, we've only just listed our heads. Essentially,
we've been head down with with making supertalkot you know,
fully ready, we've only just shipped a couple of months ago.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
But obviously doing it from New Zealand, you've gained good
international treasure, particularly in Japan. We've got good partners there.
So do you see it as a as a good
place to do this work from in terms of getting
access to talent and capital the things the startup needs
to thrive.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
I mean, we're lucky because we're more affordable than the
other five eised nations in terms of engineering. You know,
that is an appeal to venture capitalists. You know, you
know their dollar goes further if it is invested into
a New Zealand aerospace company or general startup for that matter.
You know that's good. And we have very smart people
in New Zealand, very you know, we have the culture
(32:18):
of using our resource very effectively and being very innovative
and that's been that's been good for us.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
You talked about your your philosophy around artificial intelligence and
in space and using that to explore the universe, and
that I've seen you talking about electromagnetic accelerated tunnels to
help the skid across the Solar System and may and
maybe beyond more efficient efficiently talk us through how that
might work.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
Yeah, so it's another conceptually is actually a very simple
idea of you know, using magnets to accelerate another another
magnet to a high to a high velocity. But you
know it's been used on Earth. Yeah, it's been used
on Earth for various use cases. But essentially the idea
(33:10):
is simple to reduce the need for fuel for for
for inspace acceleration. And if you imagine a tunnel that
has you know, electromagnets built into the walls of it,
you can then imagine a paleoad traveling through the tunnel
and being attracted or or you know, or repelled by
(33:33):
these electromagnets if you switch them in series.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
You know, this is what the Chinese are doing with
the high speed trains, isn't it limitating somewhat similarly?
Speaker 2 (33:42):
Somewhat similar, It's all from the similar sort of area
of work, but yeah, it you know, having having a
technology like this in in Earth orbit could allow us
to uh, you know, remove debris from Earth orbit or
to orbit keep to ensure something continues to stay in orbit,
or to even send something on interplanetary trajectory, you know,
to Mars or to Moon without needs for the spacecraft
(34:04):
to carry fuel on the way.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
It's like a perpetual propulsion system, just keep going as
long as you have a power source, which is solar.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
Solar. Yeah, the system itself would need to be kept
in space in orbit as well, but if you balance out,
you know, the if you balance out the way the
way it's sort of the way launches, you know, the
direction of launches, they could probably make it self sustainable.
Otherwise we need some fuel in low orbit.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
Yeah, so yeah, it's clearly some you know, I think
JPL and NASA have been thinking about conceptually and prototype
and experimenting with for decades now. But that is really
the holy grail more efficient way to go long distances
in space, particularly as the likes that Elon Musk and
that want to go to to Mars, and Peter Beck
(34:52):
wants to go to Venus Venus Life Finders, that's his
passion project.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
And Venus is a lot harder than Mars. Yeah, especially
if you're landing on it. It's a lot harder. Yeah,
very hot. I think he just wants to get into
the atmosphere, that's right. No, Venus is fascinating, so there's lots.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
Of potential applications there. But bringing it back to the
immediate future commercial future for zeno astronautics, what's your sort
of time frame in mind for when you might be
able to get some of these onto constellations of satellites.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
We need to so you know, we're entering the market
through a niche unusual use cases you know that really
demands something like this. It's we're more compelling in those areas,
and I think you know, over the next few years,
as we drive the cost down and we can produce
this at higher scale, we could perhaps you know, get
(35:41):
into constellations. Yeah. Yeah, well for now we're in this
in these you know, bespoke missions, right, So if you
have a particular.
Speaker 1 (35:52):
Earth observational satellite that has a specific thing and needs
a very precise placement in orbit or something like.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
That, yes, yes, we're coming. Yeah. If it's an if
it's in a high orbit, you know, and it requires
you know, perhaps jitter free you know operations, or it
requires you know, very effective fuel usage, or perhaps you
it needs it needs a capability of you know, an
ability to dock with in the future for whatever reason.
(36:19):
That's where we can add value to stage.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
Yeah, it seems like we've sort of dodged a bullet
really on the space debris stuff to date. I mean,
there have been a couple of big ones that did
spread a lot of debris, but it hasn't prevented space
from putting up as styling satellites for instance. But do
you worry that we are heading towards real trouble if
we don't come up with the technology to deal with this.
Speaker 2 (36:43):
Space is huge, Space is really huge. But we do
have you know, a lot of satellites there, as you say,
and they're moving very fast. They care a lot of energy,
I think. I mean, governments have to regulate this, and
they have to enforce this ultimately, and a private company
will you know, it's not fundamentally incentivized to solve regulators
escentralized to maximized profit, you know. So I'm not surprised
(37:04):
that space x x the way they do. And I mean, yeah,
I think it's not far from us seeing more strict
regulations in that respect.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
Yeah, we're going to need it, as you know, the
projections on how many satellites are going to be in
orbit by twenty thirty Hue, Yeah, yeah, yes.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
But a good a good opportunity for you as well.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
By the way, the more subtleized number the better for us.
From one from one, you know, from from one perspective
is because you know, yeah, I mean, when subtleites can
interact each other electromnetically, you know, you can and you
can do more useful stuff. Yeah, yeah, that way. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
You started out talking about your journey to New Zealand
from Siberia, which is quite a fascinating. What does your
take on it must be heartbreaking for you to see,
you know, your your homeland involved in this conflict that
has sort of become so divisive around the world in general.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
It's so hard, Peter. For me, it's very very hard.
I mean, I, as I said, my great grandmother is
from Kiev, which is you know, from Ukraine, and I
grew up listening to Ukrainian speech, you know, and really,
you know, the village I was born at, it was
(38:24):
primarily Ukrainians. Here's Ukrainians. So when when people were moved
to Siberia, they were moved forcefully and and mass so
you would have German villages, Ukrainian villages, you know, Polish villages. Yeah.
So yeah, so that's really hard to see, and it's
just so crushing. I remember the day when Russia invaded Ukraine.
(38:48):
I swear I wasn't disbelieve. People kept saying that's going
to happen, like there's you know, military on the border,
and I was like, it cannot happen. It is not possible.
I wasn't absolute denial that it's something that can happen.
Speaker 1 (38:58):
So a lot of model or even though the intelligence
was saying it, Biden thought he's not going to.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
Be is not possible. But it was so violent and
so brutal, and really, you know, nothing justifies a loss
of life like this.
Speaker 1 (39:17):
And the legacy that Russia has an engineering in space
as well, just the ramifications offered are so immense, with
the tariffs and the sanctions, so much great work that
could be done, collaboration on International Space Station and other things,
all on ice as well.
Speaker 2 (39:35):
Yeah, you know, I'm a bit of at a lossful
words really with respect to the situation with whether Russia
just you know, it's personal. That was very painful to realize.
And yeah, I mean I think we should learn from
this that you know that above all his peace, I think,
you know, because really, which is really highly prioritized piece
(40:00):
because then you know, we're safe. We can do the
important things that matter for us, which is our families,
you know, and children. On top of this, we can
build a great future, like build great aerospace companies and
you know, concresse space artificial intelligence, you know, but without peace,
not know what it is possible.
Speaker 1 (40:14):
Yeah, and the need to maintain peace in space as well.
Speaker 2 (40:18):
Correct the next challenge. Yeah, that's the next challenge. But
it's it's crazy because you know, space was you know,
our technologists they're currently in space to sort of came
out of the space race, which is you know, a
military race as it often does how the world works.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
Yeah, Max, good luck for the next phase, you know,
astronautics and ZI zero two and all the other.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
Super talkers that come after it, maybe when zero three
one day. Thanks very much, Peter, thanks so much for
coming on a business of tech. It's been my pleasure.
Thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
So that was the interview with Max Shavsky from Zeno.
He and the team were on their way to Japan
just after I recorded that they were doing an event
up there with so Peter Beck. Japan has a lot
of money to invest in the space sector, so there's
obviously huge potential up there. That's it for this week's
(41:18):
episode of the Business of Tech. I really hoped you
enjoyed that conversation, and thanks so much to Max Oshavski
for having me into Zeno. It was great to meet him,
co founder Sebastian with Sure, and my old friend Erica Lloyd,
who's Zeno's chief revenue officer these days. If you found
today's episode inspiring, make sure to subscribe, leave us a review,
(41:39):
and share the podcast with your friends and colleagues. We're
on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts. You can
find all of the episodes of the Business of Tech
and my weekly tech reading list in the podcast section.
Just go to Businessdesk dot co dot Nz. You'll find
podcasts in the menu. Thanks so much for listening. I'm
Peter Griffin and I'll catch you next time on the
(42:01):
Business of Tech.
Welcome to the Business of Tech powered by Two Degrees Business.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm Peter Griffin.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Each week I'm bringing you stories and insights behind the
innovators shaping our digital future from right here in Artairoa.
This week we're taking you to the very edge of
what's possible in space technology, an area New Zealand has
become a real credible contributor to internationally, really on the
back of the success of rocket Lab. My guest is
(00:31):
Max Arshawski, co founder and CEO of Zeno Astronautics, which
is developing super conducting magnets for satellites and spacecraft, a
technology that could change how we move, protect, and assemble
things in space. Given the fact that by twenty thirty
we could have fifty thousand or more active satellites in space,
(00:53):
that's a huge opportunity for Zeno, which is doing all
of this from its base in Auckland, New Zealand, where
recorded this episode of the Business of Tech. Zeno's technology
is already an orbit on a satellite and they're working
with partners from Japan to Europe, proving that world leading
innovation can and does happen right here. In this episode, Max,
(01:16):
who is a new Zealand citizen shares his journey from
the frozen steps of Siberia to the cutting edge of
our space sector. We talk about how Zeno's super conducting
magnets could save satellites up to twenty five percent of
their fuel, extend mission life spans, and even help tackle
the growing problem of space debris.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
We also touch on.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Something I didn't really know about the potential for these
magnetic fields created by the super conducting magnets to protect
spacecraft from radiation, something that's been the holy grail for
space engineers. So if like me, you're fascinated by space
and a tech used in space, or you just love
a story of bold Kiwi entrepreneurship, you won't want to
(02:00):
miss this conversation. Here's my interview with Max Oshovsky of
xeno Astronautics. So Max's been looking forward to meeting you
and having you on the show. Welcome to the Business
of Tech.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
How are you doing. I'm doing very well. Thank you,
Thanks for having me well.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
I think you're putting a brave face on it. You've
been a bit ill from just having come back from
the US. You picked up some bug there, so I
really appreciate you going ahead with the interview, given that
you've been sort of throwing up this morning, but it
just shows the dedication to the mission at Zeno Astronautics,
and we're going to get into that. But first off,
(02:41):
I just want to delve into your origin story because
it's really interesting. Obviously you're from Russia. It's an interesting
time to be a Russian in business and what goes
along with that, which you're welcome to touch on if
you want to. But I'm really interested in, you know,
coming out of Siberia, growing up in Siberia. Maybe start
(03:03):
there what that was like. Tide for kiwis to imagine
just how how cold and far away across the icy
tundra Siberia is.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Yeah, it's so different. Peter. I was born actually in
the last few months of the Soviet Union still existing. Wow,
and then it collapsed, you know, by the end of
the year. I was born in nineteen ninety one, and
I was born in the poorest region of Russia. It's
called ata Altai Mountains. Really, yeah, and that happens to
be the place where the first woman in space landed,
(03:35):
So it's the lending side of the first woman in space.
I was born just sixty kilometers away from the landing side.
There's like a monument there, so it's the only thing
of not really in there.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
Wow, that's pretty cool. Yeah, and so is your family
for a long for generations lived in Siberia.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
It's a bit hard to tell. I know, the last
maybe two generations lived there. But Siberia back in the
day was sort of a place where they would send
politically inconvenient individuals without the right to leave the legs, yeah,
the good legs. Yeah. So I think on both sides
my family is of that nature. So I know that
(04:12):
my great grandfather was a German, you know, and he
was executed by the Soviets for having German literature, I think,
and at his household and then the later admitted that
there was a mistake. But and I think on my
father's side it's Polish and Lithuanian. My last name is
Polish Polish Lithuanian background. Yeah, and my great grandmother is Ukrainian,
(04:35):
and I do have some Russian, you know background as well,
but it's just heavily mixed.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
It's just a reminder of how mixed that part of
the world is, Ukraine, Russia, Poland all of those countries.
The cultural lineage and heritage that place is fascinating. So
you grew grew up in Siberia, but at a very
young age obviously we're interested in engineering and mathematics to
(05:03):
the extent that what at fifteen, you secured a place
at the National Nuclear Research University in Moscow.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
That's right. Yeah, Actually it's a like I see him.
It's the formal definition of it. It's like a school
that is managed and run by the staff of the university,
and it's pretty much an early early admission to the university,
but you get to start studying a bit earlier kind
of thing. Yeah, but yeah, I got really fascinated with
physics and mathematics. I was good at it historically, but
(05:31):
I actually went to a humanities and arts school for
the first you know, nine years of my life. But
I really enjoyed mathematics and physics, and I went to Olympiads,
and then I kept going to Olympiads, and then it
started to you know, to just cons straight on it
fully and yeah, I learned you know, second and third
play place at the Mathematics and Physics Olympiad, and that
allowed me to get the admission to.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
The La C exciting and actually that you know, a
lot of scientists say having a background in humanities is
really valuable. It's that mix of the creativity of humanities
and science is actually so powerful.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
So you went and studied at the Lyceum. Yes, yeah,
I finished it for two years.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Finished for two years, and then by eighteen you're in
New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Yes, what happened? Question you weren't deported or exiled? Still
a bit of a puzzle. But at the time I
was thinking that I really wanted to be at a
place that is a part of the Western world that
has English as the primary language, but also something that
you know, as a society that has developed, but also
that has access to great nature. Because I come from Siberia,
(06:35):
I really missed nature living in Moscow for ten or
eleven years or so. And yeah, New Zealand looked like
a great place. And also at the time, like most
young people, I really wanted to take, you know, to
buy some time to think about what to apply myself to.
And I thought New Zealand is quiet enough for that
(06:55):
for me to be able to erect the answer.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
And then you sort of did a bit of a
pivot there into biomedical science.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
That will be at university, that's right. Yeah, I pivoted
a few times there. So I actually came to New
Zealand to study at Oakland Business School. My thinking was that,
you know, I was on the path to become an
engineer in Russia, in Moscow and the historically good engineering school.
So I thought, you know what, I really want to
be able to understand the world of finance, and you know,
the Soviet background, it's you know, communist background. You know,
(07:24):
I thought it was not the strongest place to medicated
about finance. So I went to New Zealand, went to
business school, did a foundational year first here in Oakland,
and then thought, no, way, a second, Actually I need
to understand engineering first. Because as I was studying, you know,
I thought that this was quite intuitive, like the you know,
the papers I was taking, they felt quite in churchive
(07:44):
stuff like, okay, I'd probably grasped with myself at a
later stage of that I need to but I probably
need to foundation of engineering first. So I switched. I
spoke to the to the head of the school, and
three quarters through the year, I asked to you know,
take papers to get ato engineering school first decline and
then he said, you know what, do you seem to
be really keen. So I'll let you sit the exams.
So if you can bust exams, I'll give you the
(08:06):
average for the rest of the test that you've missed
at the class average. And if you get to engineering godless,
that's great. You did, Yeah, and I did. You didn't
stay long.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
You came up with Zeno and a startup in twenty
seventeen and decided to put your degree on hold to
pursue that.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Yeah, you said something interesting, and I think this is
I found this interesting because I get a lot of
people saying to me in the business community in New
Zealand tall poppy syndrome, we don't tolerate failure here. It's
too small a country. Everyone knows each other. If you
fail and you burn people's money, you burn people, you
won't get a second chance. But you know, it's all
(08:45):
an interview where you said in New Zealand, if you're
a complete failure, you can try again. You're going to
have a house, you're going to have food, You're not
going to starve. And I never thought about it in
those terms. I thought about it in reputational terms, that's right.
But coming from Russia, I guess you know, you fail there,
you destitute potentially.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Yes, you're facing death, you know, yeah, especially in Siberia.
But yeah, I think you're right. Reputationally that may not
be maybe irrecoverable to fail on you know, like this
in New Zealand.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Didn't be though really shouldn't it. Failure is part of
taking risks.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
But I thought about it for a long time, and
I think, you know, we we cind of really afford
too much risky stuff as a nation. We don't have
too much resource, you know, we have to be very
responsible how we use resource. So maybe that's why we
don't like moonshots, you know. Yeah, it's like come on, yeah, yeah, yeah,
So it sort of makes sense. But I'm prepared to
face that risk, you know, publicly, because I think it's
(09:41):
worth the risk.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Yeah, what we're doing, and tell us about your moonshot
and the conception of that. In twenty seventeen, with the
the formation of Zeno Astronautics, and I mean by that
time we had rocket Lab in New Zealand was doing
quite well. Twenty seventeen it launched its first correct rocket.
So there was a lot of expectation on that, but
they proved the model. Uh and but really before then,
(10:06):
up until that point, we didn't have much of a
space industry here. But you obviously decided, you know, eight
years ago that this was the place to to launch
this idea and tell us about that.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
Yeah, first of all, have to say thank you to
Sir Peter Beeck for the work that he's done for
the aerospace, uh, you know sector in globally and for
zoned in particular. I remember I was volunteering at Stardom Observatory,
you know, so during the younger years, and I saw
a nosecone of I T one rocket from memory, that
(10:36):
rocket let launched. It's there, it was observatory. Yeah, and
you know I was while volunteering, I was sort of
looking trying to understand how to apply myself, you know,
and looking looking at seeing that no scan of that rocket.
Understanding that people actually building businesses in space and the
space is becoming, you know, open for business. You know,
(10:57):
that was very inspiring, and so I I in I
looked at the space industry and I realized were in
the very early days, and I sort of admittedly took
sometimes I think at the extreme, I know, extrapolated the extreme,
and I think, okay, that's just how my brain works.
And I thought about the industry the extreme, and I thought, okay,
we have when I have companies building rockets and satellites,
(11:18):
and you know, we're doing really good there. What's going
to happen in the long in the long term, And
I thought, in the long term, we really need to
ensure that we do it sustainably because you know, the
rate of collapse of the you know, Keslicer Skaate, I'm
sure familiar with the idea of Castlcker scade. It happens
very very fast if it were to happen. Just explain
(11:39):
that for our listeners, sorry, Keesslicker Skate. The idea is
the phenomenon of having so much space debris that we're
unable to reach orbit anymore. Yes, yes, And it occurs
due to you know, one or two collisions that you know,
sort of escalate like dominoes.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
Yeah. And when we start getting into constellations of satellites,
which we have now exactly we have eleven thousand satellites
up there or something, Yeah, and it takes one or
two of those to collide spread debris everywhere, and that.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Complicates the picture exactly. It may lock us out of
orbit for like one hundred years, you know. Yeah, So
first of all, thought about sustainability because I'm deeply passionate
about space and also, you know, I almost be in
a position where we're locked out of space. But also
I want to I really have a desire, and I
(12:27):
think it's important for us to ensure that the space
industry as it continues to develop, is independent of the
resource of Earth, you know. So I'll give you an example.
So currently rely on Earth based fuel that we bring
with us off to space, and we fuel are spacecraft
and then you know, to make them agile, but then
we run out of fuel and then the spacecraft is
(12:49):
no longer functional, you know. And it's okay for now,
you know, we can build great businesses, but I'M it's
a certain thing always, you know, long term at infinitem
and I'M the version I have is that technologies in
space should be in dependent of Earth resource when it
comes to reliance on fuel or radiation protection or an
ability to construct anything. You know, we should be able
to construct things in space and they should be autonomously
(13:11):
self sustaining. That the artie should be autonomously self sustaining
in space. And you know, I've also envisioned uh, you know,
artificial intelligence being hosted in space independent of Earth. And
perhaps there is a bit of a resonance with Elans thinking,
but his a solution to this is to move humans
to Mars. Yeah, my solution is, my suggestion is that
(13:37):
in order for us to understand the universe, we we
certainly need to recouple ourselves from Earth, but not necessarily
in the form of a human intellect. Perhaps in artificial
intelligence is sufficient, but in that case it needs to
be independent of us and independent of the Earth resource.
And it certainly in terms of the.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
Logistics and practicalities of sending weight matter like humans across
the universe, it's a lot better to seeing bits and
bytes exactly.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
My thinking is that, you know, humans, obviously we've evolved
for this Earth. We're made of the soil of this planet.
You know, it's going to be very hard even psychologically,
you know, to be on another planet, let alone you know,
restrict to other sort of issues. So yeah, I personally
wouldn't want to leave Earth move for fun, you know,
for a trip yea to space. That would be amazing.
Mark Crockett just did it good on here. Yeah, I
(14:27):
actual sent him an emails. Mark, there was a lowesome
so inspiring. Yeah, I'll totally do that. But you know,
like long term living, I think Earth is great for us.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
Yeah, but that idea of I guess the big limiting
factor with the satellite is you've only got so much
propellant that you can put on that satellite to position it,
reposition it, avoid it deorbiting. And I guess some satellites
have a lifespan of some of them three to five years. Yes,
(14:54):
only for various reasons. There's radiation this stuff up there
as well. But that key issue of having enough propellant
to keep it in orbit and reposition it as required
as a major limitation at the moment.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Isn't it. Yes, that is correct. Yes, So we have
multiple solutions to this problem that we're trying to apply globally.
We have electric thrusts that are highly highly efficient thrusters.
We're also working on refueling, you know, capabilities in orbits
so we can refuel that more more frequently, and fuel
storage in orbit as well. But from our end, from
(15:27):
Zeno's end, we're working on technologies that would allow you
to save some fuel throughout emission that you would have
normally spent on pointing your satellite the right way. So
when you go to space, you sell like tumbles. Just
like if you throw a rock in the space, it's
sort of tumbles, yeah, and you don't want it to tumble,
you know. You want the solar panels to point towards
the Sun. You want the camera to point towards the Earth,
(15:48):
you know, and you want it to be nice and controlled.
And for that we do use normally a combination of
technologies and in some orbits, in higher orbits, we use
fuel as a part of that, you know, as a
part of the solution. And that's what the xenotechnology allows
us to achieve to remove the need for fuel for
these for this application. Okay, So what I'm trying to do, Peter,
(16:11):
is we're trying to build a business that the bridges
where we're at now and the needs that we have
today in the more in the current industry, with the
you know, with the long term needs of the industry,
and uh, I think the solution. You know, something that
we're known for globally is don't know, is we're known
for pioneering a very unique technology. It's called superconducting magnets
(16:34):
for space applications. It sounds very nerdy, but the bottom
line is, you know, this technology allows us to generate
very strong linetic fields in space. They are very dense,
and they're very stable, and they are very efficient from
the power standpoint and mass and volume standpoint. You know,
it's really good. Like it's nice and functional, so to speak.
(16:55):
And these magnetic fields can be used to solve a
whole range of problems. But ultimately, you know, we're working
on the problem of detaching the dependency we have between
Earth and space. Yeah, and if we were to resolve
it a bit further, I think we can split into
three categories. I think these these magnets can help us
(17:16):
reduce the need for fuel in space, they can help
us protect us off some radiation of space. And these
magns can also enable sophisticated operations in space, like in
space assembly autonomous true, you know, easy going sort of
a large structure assembly in space. Because currently it's not
feasible and the way it would work for the listener
(17:37):
because it's actually not very complex from the idea standpoint.
If you think of holding a magnet in your hand
and then holding another magnet close to it, you feel
the force between them. That's really good. So now imagine
if one of them is a controllable magnet, so you
can control the you know, which way, you know, the
orientation of that magnet essentially, and that in the engineering
(17:59):
field is called anally an electromagnet, you know, so it's
a magnet on demand. You can control the strength and
which and which way points. And then essentially superconducting technology
allows us to make these magnets exceptionally powerful, like das
moving into more powerful than before and more efficient. And
we can then have these magnets on satellites and we
(18:20):
can control, uh, you know, where they go with respect
to Earth. Earth is a big magnet. We cannot control Earth,
but it has a big magnetic field and we can
interact with it. And then satellite, you know, you can
sense your positions with respect to Earth. You can also
position the satellite with respect to other satellites if they
are nearby and they have a magnet as well on board.
(18:40):
Just like you know, you can sort of build very
large structures in space autonomously, and you can have structures
that are dynamic that can rearrange their you know, shape
in space. You can build structures that they can update
quite easily. For example, you have a large you know,
a large structure that is built, you want to update
a component like a camera on it, or you know,
(19:00):
you can variously update this, you know, with this approach. Yeah,
and you can also make things last longer in space
because you can use these magnetic fields to deflect the
so called charge particle radiation. Yeah, big problem. That's a
holy grail. That's a big problem. I'm not cleaning. We've
solved it, but we are looking, you know. I mean
there's a lot of analytical work has been done around this,
and we now have unlocked this capability of having superconduction
(19:23):
magnez in space. So we're very much interested in, you know,
taking this further to see if we can actually fully
crack it. The idea there is very simple. So charge
particle radiation is they is the phenomenon of being bombarded
by very small, fast moving particles. You can think of
them as tiny magnets. I mean, they're not magnez, but
they charged. You know, they're either plus or minus whatever.
And yeah, so the way and space is full of
(19:46):
this radiation full of these particles, and some of them
move faster, and them move hyper fast, you know, and
they carry a lot more energy. The problem is that
when they move so fast and collide with either human
tissue or electronics, they create problems like they can actually
damage DNA within the cell, you know, and then you
end up with cancers whatnot. Or when they collide with electronics,
they can create perman damaged to electronics, to the spacecraft,
(20:08):
they can fully disable the spacecraft, or you know, the
best case, snary, they could create a temporary problems like
errors in the code in the computation. Yeah. So one
way to solve it is to of course deploy a
large magnetic field around the satellite so that these particles
can be deflected, you know, bounced off the satellite, which
is how Earth itself protects us. That's how we are
(20:30):
safe the ionosphere exactly. That's how we are safe on Earth.
You know, it works pretty good.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
So you got multiple applications of this, and again there's
a tie in with New Zealand because New Zealand has
a bit of a legacy with high temp produced superconducting magnets, right, yes, correct,
And so you know Robinson Research Institute, which you're partnering
with doing some work with, but the spinouts from that
multiple applications, most interestingly I think what you're doing, but
(20:59):
also open Star technology, Yes, amazing nuclear fusion startups and
Wellington livitating a magnet in the middle of this plasma reactor.
So the use of this technology is incredible.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
Yeah, I think New Zealand has a tremendous opportunity to
become like the global capital for superconducting work in general.
I mean open Star, you know, has made a lot
of they've they've had a lot of attention from from
press for their work. Robinson Research Institute, which is you know,
one of the world's leading institutes based in New Zealand,
(21:33):
have been researching superconductivity and pioneering a lot of stuff
and and xenostronotics. You know, we've pioneered the space use
cases of superconducting magnets on how to enable them for
space use in general.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
So we're talking about literally a box that you have developed.
I think you said it's like the size of a
bag of pineapple lamps. That's KWI analogy. So we're talking
about the magnets, the high temperature superconnecting magnets are contained
in this box that is basically bolted onto a satellite.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Yes, correct, So this box currently is the size of
a loaf of bread analogy. Yeah, but this is sort
of the probably one of the smaller sizes. But yes,
it has super connecting magnets on the inside, and that
it is bolted to a satellite, and that it ensures
the satellite has an ability to point the right way
(22:29):
without the needful fuel. It's fully powered by the sun
sol energy, and it has no consumable of any kind.
It even has no moving parts in one of the
in one instance, you know, for now we have one
moving part, but there's a design that has no moving
part at all. So it's beautiful technology, very stable, very scalable,
and I mean this is.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
Not a theoretical thing. You have a satellite in space
that has your technology on board.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
Yes, we have a tech demo mission in space since
December twenty one. We're currently we haven't announced it, but
we're currently on another spacecraft that is due for launch
later this year, and we anticipate softly another launch or
to the year after. Fantastic, So the first one do
you orbit this? This company? So what are they doing
(23:19):
with that satellite. This is a platform that de orbit
operates for technology demonstrations. So we had support from the orbit,
you know, to launch our mission.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
So it's been up there since the scene betweeny twenty three.
What sort of data are you getting back from it
to tell you how it's working your piece of equipment.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
Yeah, so we had a pretty dense period of conops operations,
a plane of operations, concert operations once in orbit, and
the objective for this technology was to increase technology readiness
slow all of this you know of this paradigm, so
(24:04):
to speak. And this paradigm consists of you know a
number of subsystems you know, power transfer, subsystem, cooling, thermal management, subsystem,
active thermal management, paster thoral management, mechanical, you know, electrical,
and there's there's a few things there. So we put
it all together in one box and we flew to
space to see what works what doesn't. Thankfully, everything worked,
Some of it worked better than you know, some that
(24:27):
worked you know, not twe hundred percent, but everything is
functional and so they give us a lot of peace
of mind that we're building something that is you know,
fully on track. And we've since stripped another unit that
is uh, you know, at least uh, you know, ten
times more powerful, right, and that creates some nay field
(24:47):
in in you know, in any direction is sort of
you know, we've taken a huge step forward and we
expect to be at full maturity by the end of
this year, meaning full technological maturity like products is good
to or no further work is needed. That's great.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
So each time you're iterating it, putting another device on
a satellite, it's just improving dramatically the performance of it.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
Yes, and the one you know I mentioned that we're
looking to hopefully, you know, build another iteration for the
next year that would be again twenty stems more powerful.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
Yeah, in the same format, and let's click the I
read the market for satellite propulsion in that is like
eleven billion dollars a year.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
It's a big market.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
Yeah, small in terms of the overall space market, but
everyone is looking as they put more constellations of satellites
into space, they're looking for a better way to power
these satellites.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
So it's a booming market. Yeah, one hundred percent of
the booming market. We well, we can operate in the
market of satellite altitude control. We choose not to compete
in that market, or rather not to provide any services there. Instead,
we're in the market of attitude control, which is satellite pointing,
and where we are a complement to reaction wheels and mucanino. Yeah,
(26:02):
where a complement direction was there and the markets around
three to four billion dollars.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
Right, Yeah, And so the satellite that's up there at
the moment is probably forty or fifty kg.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Something like that. I think that one is around to fifty.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
Okay, so it's a bit bigger. But we're talking here
about your technology being able to to point a small satellite,
but you're also talking about potentially space stations at.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
Some point direct Actually may we all see it from here?
Our listeners will not be able to. But there's a
giant golden ring that is thinking under the ceiling here.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
It's a fully functional piece of technology. It was built
to increase It was built with the idea in mind
of putting it around a space station. It's four point
eight meters and diameter. It's a superconducting ring like a
wedding ring. And the guys that around the space station
and then it takes care of its attitude of its pointing.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
Wow. Yeah, and obviously replacing the International Space Station, but
the NASA wants to put stations in lunar orbit that's
as well, so that's going to be a booming market
as well.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
So correct lunar lunary is exciting. Let's you know, there's
a few companies that are commercial that are working in
a direction, but still early days, you know, Luner, but
I think we'll get there in the next decade or so.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
So you raised about ten and a half million dollars
in twenty twenty two, and a little bit more I
think last year.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
Yeah, a bit more than ten last year, but we
haven't announced the number. But the bottom line is we're
sufficiently funded, you know, to do what is needed, and
we have you know, we're in a good position to
build the business. And yeah, we're spending a bit of
time working without partners in Japan, in Europe and in
(27:44):
the States on various use cases of this technology.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
Yeah, you're about to hit to Japan, so it's obviously
a key market fee. You don't hear so much about
them and the you know, all the retoric around SpaceX
and rocket Lab and that you don't hear some about
what the Japanese are doing, but some incredible work going
on there the Qshue Space Hub. They're involved in lunar missions.
The Japanese and an A group, the big aerospace company
(28:11):
and airline.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
You've done a partnership with them, Yes, they were actually
are partly owned by Ana. Now they've invested and so
have Mitsubishi Electric and yeah. I mean Japan has historically
been involved in the in the space sector or mostly
on the government level, but they have a very booming,
you know, startup ac system these days. I think have
(28:33):
at least one hundred and fifty companies there and they're
investing from memory at least a billion United States dollars
per year into the public sector and to the private
sort of private startup companies, right, Yeah, so they're they're
catching up with the rest of the world, with America
in particular.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
Yeah, and they're obviously interested in the same thing, putting
up constellations and being able to control them more efficiently
in that what is the sort of the the efficiency
gain that you sort of foreseeing in terms of the
duration of emission and being able to keep a satellite
in space longer through the use of this sort of
(29:11):
technology not being so fully reliant on propellant and also
the cost implications of that having more space to play
with on a satellite potentially and wait to play with
because you don't have to have as much fuel on board.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
Yeah, this one is a bit hard to answer as
a as a as a you know answer that I'm
sort of you know, everything at once. But so as
it all thumb, maybe around twenty to twenty five percent
of fuel can be saved. It's quite material with our
first product in market, which is called A zero one
or otherwise known as supertalk supertur. Yeah. I was told
(29:47):
it's a much sexier name than zet don't want so okay, superterical,
let's call it seratokra. Shout out to Jim Hafkey, the
head of Auckland Problem for Space Systems at the University
of Auckland, who is the first thing being to use
that word. When I explained to him the concept, he
was like, oh, it's just a super talker, brilliant. So
(30:10):
so yeah, so that's that's considerable.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
If you if you only have to put substantially less
fuel on your satellite, that's saving you money.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
Yeah, you could put some amount of fuel, but you
can do more, more and more with it. Yeah, you
can be there for longer, more agile, or you can
be equally as agile but for longer. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
Yeah, So you've got the zero one super talker, you're
working on new iterations off that. Where are you at
in terms of testing around the using that technology against
radiation in space?
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Good one, very keen to. We've done a bit of
work on this analytical work and we've also built that,
you know, a a device, the the Larcial de Ice.
I mentioned earlier. This is something it's hard to do
as a startup based in New Zealand, that is, you know,
trying to also you know, operate as a commercial company.
(31:09):
This is this is something that I would need to
do in partnership with either a large you know, with
either research institute or a large commercial player. So I
guess we're you know, hunting for someone who want to
do it with us. There's a lot of research we're
going on around the world on this. I think Europeans
are moving on this as well. Yeah, for us, we've
(31:29):
concentrated so far, we've only just listed our heads. Essentially,
we've been head down with with making supertalkot you know,
fully ready, we've only just shipped a couple of months ago.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
But obviously doing it from New Zealand, you've gained good
international treasure, particularly in Japan. We've got good partners there.
So do you see it as a as a good
place to do this work from in terms of getting
access to talent and capital the things the startup needs
to thrive.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
I mean, we're lucky because we're more affordable than the
other five eised nations in terms of engineering. You know,
that is an appeal to venture capitalists. You know, you
know their dollar goes further if it is invested into
a New Zealand aerospace company or general startup for that matter.
You know that's good. And we have very smart people
in New Zealand, very you know, we have the culture
(32:18):
of using our resource very effectively and being very innovative
and that's been that's been good for us.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
You talked about your your philosophy around artificial intelligence and
in space and using that to explore the universe, and
that I've seen you talking about electromagnetic accelerated tunnels to
help the skid across the Solar System and may and
maybe beyond more efficient efficiently talk us through how that
might work.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
Yeah, so it's another conceptually is actually a very simple
idea of you know, using magnets to accelerate another another
magnet to a high to a high velocity. But you
know it's been used on Earth. Yeah, it's been used
on Earth for various use cases. But essentially the idea
(33:10):
is simple to reduce the need for fuel for for
for inspace acceleration. And if you imagine a tunnel that
has you know, electromagnets built into the walls of it,
you can then imagine a paleoad traveling through the tunnel
and being attracted or or you know, or repelled by
(33:33):
these electromagnets if you switch them in series.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
You know, this is what the Chinese are doing with
the high speed trains, isn't it limitating somewhat similarly?
Speaker 2 (33:42):
Somewhat similar, It's all from the similar sort of area
of work, but yeah, it you know, having having a
technology like this in in Earth orbit could allow us
to uh, you know, remove debris from Earth orbit or
to orbit keep to ensure something continues to stay in orbit,
or to even send something on interplanetary trajectory, you know,
to Mars or to Moon without needs for the spacecraft
(34:04):
to carry fuel on the way.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
It's like a perpetual propulsion system, just keep going as
long as you have a power source, which is solar.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
Solar. Yeah, the system itself would need to be kept
in space in orbit as well, but if you balance out,
you know, the if you balance out the way the
way it's sort of the way launches, you know, the
direction of launches, they could probably make it self sustainable.
Otherwise we need some fuel in low orbit.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
Yeah, so yeah, it's clearly some you know, I think
JPL and NASA have been thinking about conceptually and prototype
and experimenting with for decades now. But that is really
the holy grail more efficient way to go long distances
in space, particularly as the likes that Elon Musk and
that want to go to to Mars, and Peter Beck
(34:52):
wants to go to Venus Venus Life Finders, that's his
passion project.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
And Venus is a lot harder than Mars. Yeah, especially
if you're landing on it. It's a lot harder. Yeah,
very hot. I think he just wants to get into
the atmosphere, that's right. No, Venus is fascinating, so there's lots.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
Of potential applications there. But bringing it back to the
immediate future commercial future for zeno astronautics, what's your sort
of time frame in mind for when you might be
able to get some of these onto constellations of satellites.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
We need to so you know, we're entering the market
through a niche unusual use cases you know that really
demands something like this. It's we're more compelling in those areas,
and I think you know, over the next few years,
as we drive the cost down and we can produce
this at higher scale, we could perhaps you know, get
(35:41):
into constellations. Yeah. Yeah, well for now we're in this
in these you know, bespoke missions, right, So if you
have a particular.
Speaker 1 (35:52):
Earth observational satellite that has a specific thing and needs
a very precise placement in orbit or something like.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
That, yes, yes, we're coming. Yeah. If it's an if
it's in a high orbit, you know, and it requires
you know, perhaps jitter free you know operations, or it
requires you know, very effective fuel usage, or perhaps you
it needs it needs a capability of you know, an
ability to dock with in the future for whatever reason.
(36:19):
That's where we can add value to stage.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
Yeah, it seems like we've sort of dodged a bullet
really on the space debris stuff to date. I mean,
there have been a couple of big ones that did
spread a lot of debris, but it hasn't prevented space
from putting up as styling satellites for instance. But do
you worry that we are heading towards real trouble if
we don't come up with the technology to deal with this.
Speaker 2 (36:43):
Space is huge, Space is really huge. But we do
have you know, a lot of satellites there, as you say,
and they're moving very fast. They care a lot of energy,
I think. I mean, governments have to regulate this, and
they have to enforce this ultimately, and a private company
will you know, it's not fundamentally incentivized to solve regulators
escentralized to maximized profit, you know. So I'm not surprised
(37:04):
that space x x the way they do. And I mean, yeah,
I think it's not far from us seeing more strict
regulations in that respect.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
Yeah, we're going to need it, as you know, the
projections on how many satellites are going to be in
orbit by twenty thirty Hue, Yeah, yeah, yes.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
But a good a good opportunity for you as well.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
By the way, the more subtleized number the better for us.
From one from one, you know, from from one perspective
is because you know, yeah, I mean, when subtleites can
interact each other electromnetically, you know, you can and you
can do more useful stuff. Yeah, yeah, that way. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
You started out talking about your journey to New Zealand
from Siberia, which is quite a fascinating. What does your
take on it must be heartbreaking for you to see,
you know, your your homeland involved in this conflict that
has sort of become so divisive around the world in general.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
It's so hard, Peter. For me, it's very very hard.
I mean, I, as I said, my great grandmother is
from Kiev, which is you know, from Ukraine, and I
grew up listening to Ukrainian speech, you know, and really,
you know, the village I was born at, it was
(38:24):
primarily Ukrainians. Here's Ukrainians. So when when people were moved
to Siberia, they were moved forcefully and and mass so
you would have German villages, Ukrainian villages, you know, Polish villages. Yeah.
So yeah, so that's really hard to see, and it's
just so crushing. I remember the day when Russia invaded Ukraine.
(38:48):
I swear I wasn't disbelieve. People kept saying that's going
to happen, like there's you know, military on the border,
and I was like, it cannot happen. It is not possible.
I wasn't absolute denial that it's something that can happen.
Speaker 1 (38:58):
So a lot of model or even though the intelligence
was saying it, Biden thought he's not going to.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
Be is not possible. But it was so violent and
so brutal, and really, you know, nothing justifies a loss
of life like this.
Speaker 1 (39:17):
And the legacy that Russia has an engineering in space
as well, just the ramifications offered are so immense, with
the tariffs and the sanctions, so much great work that
could be done, collaboration on International Space Station and other things,
all on ice as well.
Speaker 2 (39:35):
Yeah, you know, I'm a bit of at a lossful
words really with respect to the situation with whether Russia
just you know, it's personal. That was very painful to realize.
And yeah, I mean I think we should learn from
this that you know that above all his peace, I think,
you know, because really, which is really highly prioritized piece
(40:00):
because then you know, we're safe. We can do the
important things that matter for us, which is our families,
you know, and children. On top of this, we can
build a great future, like build great aerospace companies and
you know, concresse space artificial intelligence, you know, but without peace,
not know what it is possible.
Speaker 1 (40:14):
Yeah, and the need to maintain peace in space as well.
Speaker 2 (40:18):
Correct the next challenge. Yeah, that's the next challenge. But
it's it's crazy because you know, space was you know,
our technologists they're currently in space to sort of came
out of the space race, which is you know, a
military race as it often does how the world works.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
Yeah, Max, good luck for the next phase, you know,
astronautics and ZI zero two and all the other.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
Super talkers that come after it, maybe when zero three
one day. Thanks very much, Peter, thanks so much for
coming on a business of tech. It's been my pleasure.
Thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
So that was the interview with Max Shavsky from Zeno.
He and the team were on their way to Japan
just after I recorded that they were doing an event
up there with so Peter Beck. Japan has a lot
of money to invest in the space sector, so there's
obviously huge potential up there. That's it for this week's
(41:18):
episode of the Business of Tech. I really hoped you
enjoyed that conversation, and thanks so much to Max Oshavski
for having me into Zeno. It was great to meet him,
co founder Sebastian with Sure, and my old friend Erica Lloyd,
who's Zeno's chief revenue officer these days. If you found
today's episode inspiring, make sure to subscribe, leave us a review,
(41:39):
and share the podcast with your friends and colleagues. We're
on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts. You can
find all of the episodes of the Business of Tech
and my weekly tech reading list in the podcast section.
Just go to Businessdesk dot co dot Nz. You'll find
podcasts in the menu. Thanks so much for listening. I'm
Peter Griffin and I'll catch you next time on the
(42:01):
Business of Tech.
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