October 1, 2024 • 15 mins
Tensions in the Middle East are ramping up at an alarming rate.
Israel’s Defence Forces have said it has begun a "targeted" ground operation into southern Lebanon against “terrorist targets”.
It comes after days of airstrikes within Beirut’s city limits, which started after Israel assassinated Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah.
The escalation in the war has killed civilians, destroyed homes and displaced 1 million people in Lebanon.
Today on The Front Page, Waikato University international law professor, Al Gillespie joins us to discuss.
Follow The Front Page on iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
You can read more about this and other stories in the New Zealand Herald, online at nzherald.co.nz, or tune in to news bulletins across the NZME network.
Host: Chelsea Daniels
Sound Engineer: Paddy Fox
Producer: Ethan Sills
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Kiyota. I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page,
a daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. Tensions
in the Middle East are ramping up at an alarming rate.
Israel's defense forces said it's begun a targeted ground operation
(00:26):
into southern Lebanon against terrorist targets. It comes after days
of air strikes within Beirut's city limits, which started after
Israel assassinated HESBLA leader Hassan Nasrallah. The escalation in the
war has killed civilians, destroyed homes, and displaced a million
(00:46):
people in Lebanon. Today on the Front Page, Waikato University
International law professor Ol Gillespie joins us to discuss, first off,
our can you give us an over of what's happening here?
Speaker 2 (01:02):
The war, or the most recent conflict in Gaza has
been a difficult conflict for the last nearly a year now,
and it has been to a degree contained and not
spread over borders. But what you're seeing now is that
the war is starting to expand, and even though there
are different causes, they are related and so what was
(01:23):
once effectively within territory that Israel controlled is now moving
into other countries, and so it's moving into Lebanon in particular.
The risk is that it won't just state to Lebanon,
but it could also move towards Yemen and its potential
maybe in Syria because there's some sympathy in Syria for
some of these causes. But there's one country behind them all,
which is Iran. And so the biggest fear right now
(01:46):
is that Israel and Iran get into a fight. And
it's not just Israel and the puppets because his Bula,
the forces in Yemen, and the forces in Syria are
all controlled by Iran. But right now there's a very
than paper walls stopping that major regional conflict breaking out.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
So who are the main players here and how can
you help us kind of get our head around who
we're looking at.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
So with his Blar, if you're looking at them in
terms of capacity, they've got probably double the amount of
soldiers that Hermas has. They definitely have better military kit
and so as opposed to using rockets, they've also got
things like missiles which are much more precision guided. Their
biggest advantage is that they have got a conduit which
(02:31):
goes directly to Iran, which can give them weapons supply
as they need it, and that's a very different situation
to a gaza where they're fighting with much more limited
resources because they're isolated.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
Where is has Bila based.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
They're based in Lebanon. They are not the Lebanese state.
They are effectively a non governmental militia, but they are
funded directly from Iran. Some countries designate his BLA as
a terrorist entity, which means that you're not allowed to
acknowledge them or work with them, and those who support
them are at risk of criminal charges. New Zealand is
(03:04):
not one of those countries.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
So why has BLA gotten involved this late in the game.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Well, in many ways, the game with his BLA goes
back to the early nineteen eighties, and you can either
see this current conflict as separate or you can see
it as part of a sequence that goes back decades.
And so there have been other times when Israel has
actually made a ground incursion into Lebanon. That happened in
the nineteen eighties, and it happened the early part of
the twenty first century. What they'll be trying to achieve
(03:33):
is to push his BLA back beyond a certain border
so that there's a neutral zone between the two sides,
and if that is achieved, a type of truth may
come down and then Israel might withdraw.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
Two am in Lebanon, where Israel has begun its ground
offensive into the south. Throughout Monday, Israeli as rights continue
to target southern Lebanon. Several Israeli as rights I've had
these southern sub of be ruled. A series of loud
explosions were heard across the city just after midnight. As
Bola says it's fighting back with shelling and rocket attacks.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
They have started attacking Beirute and Lebanon in the last
few days, and it comes just days after Israel assassinated
Hiszbelah leader Hassan Nasraala. The group's vowing to continue fighting
Israel in support of Palestinians, it says them, saying that
they're fighting on behalf of Palestinians. Is that the group's
(04:34):
way of getting involved in this conflict and furthering their
wants and needs.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
The Palestinian issue is a humanitarian catastrophe, and some people
see it in ethical terms, some people see it in
political terms. Some groups use it as a justification for violence,
and Hisbela is currently one of the groups which is
justifying some of their violence against the Israeli state because
(05:00):
the calamity which is happening in Palestine or the occupied territories.
Having said that, if you actually were able to solve
the Palestinian issue with the creation of a Palestinian state
and the two state option, it's unlikely that peace would
break out in the Middle East. You would just solved
one part of the problem. They're connected, but they are
different at the same time, and so even if you
(05:21):
do find a peaceful solution to Palestine, the relationship between
Iran and Israel is very difficult and that could continue
in a difficult way even if peace was found. But
having said that, finding peace with Palestine is it should
be our foremost goal.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
In terms of the conflict that Israel's facing with Hazbillah,
It's come at a time when Benjamin Yatnya, who was
really reaching for that public support. Do you think that
this and the assassination of senior leaders of the group
on behalf of Israel has been a positive for him?
Speaker 2 (05:51):
War is a good distraction for any politician who has
domestic troubles at home, and this isn't just the case
of Israel, and often you will find that a conflict
means that the population becomes concerned with other issues, and
when you're fighting large external enemies, it means that debate
about some of your own policies gets pushed to one side.
(06:11):
So on a personal political level, yes, I think expanding
the war is good for Netanyahu.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
How significant is a ground invasion in Lebanon.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
We've seen ground invasions before. The reason they do it
is to push back the insurgents, which in this case
says Bilarre to a certain distance. The risk is that
a ground invasion presents much more risk to Israeli troops
than aerial bombardment, and that's because they're on the ground
that in an urban environment, and they're fighting an enemy
(06:40):
which is well armed and quite well prepared. It's a
different caliber of conflict to what you would see in Gaza,
because the enemy is larger in terms of manpower, their
munitions are more modern, and their supply lines are strong.
And so the risk for Israel is that they go
into Lebanon or they're going too southern Lebanon, and it
(07:03):
becomes a much harder battlefield objective to find success on
because the enemy is more entrenched, more prepared, and much
better armed.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
In terms of Israel at the moment that fighting wars
on several fronts, Can you give us some examples on
what's happening there.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
So apart from the ongoing conflict in Gaza, they've also
been involved in strikes on Syria, strikes on Yemen. The
only country they have not struck directly is Iran, but
they've clearly provided no shortage of provocation for Iran to
hit them with assassinations on Iranian territory. In short, Israel
(07:49):
is feeling very strong and they're almost provoking Iran into
a greater conflict. But right now, imagine Iran is feeling
quite nervous about that prospect because the superiority of Israeli
military is becoming apparent. And you can see that just
in the way that they've used technology in recent days
to effectively eliminate the entire upper echelon of his Balan.
(08:09):
It's ethically questionable like what they've done, and legally questionable
some of the things like using walkie talkies which explode.
And so I think if you were in Iran right now,
your rhetoric would be high, but you would be very
reluctant to go toe to toe with Israel in this conflict.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
What would it take for Iran to get personally involved
in this What do you think would be the straw
that would break their back?
Speaker 2 (08:31):
There's been plenty of straws so far. There's been provocative actions,
and you may remember a couple of months ago when
Iran sent three hundred missiles towards Israel following an assassination,
and so there's no shortage of provocations in terms of assassinations.
The thing that would tip it would be a direct
(08:52):
attack on Iranian territory, but I think Israel's got no
intention to do that unless Iran started to shoot missiles
directly at them again. But Iran's got no need to
do that, because they can just push their munitions towards
Lebanon and let his Billad do it for them, or
push them towards Yemen and let the Huthi do it
for them, or push them towards Syria. Iran doesn't need
(09:14):
to fight directly. It can just fund this war from
Afar and hopefully for the Iranians, keep them safe from
Israeli bombs.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
I suppose this escalation is putting the US in a
very difficult position.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
If Iran gets involved in the conflict directly, it's quite
possible that the United States will get involved as well,
and that would have implications not just for America and
they're run up with their presidential campaign, but also for
countries like New Zealand, because we are part of a
group of ten countries which have pledged to help keep
the international waterway of the Red Sea open, and so
(09:48):
if it kicked off in your worst case scenario, it's
possible that New Zealand could be asked to do more
to help protect the Red Sea.
Speaker 4 (09:57):
I am guessing that the United States wants to avoid
any kind of direct alliance with Israel on this, but
will provide them with the necessary weapons, including the bomb
that took out Hassan Nasralla just a couple of days ago.
So I think that the United States wants to avoid
escalation in which they will have to take part a
direct part in as Iran has over the past few months.
(10:20):
But it remains to be seen if they will be
dragged into a more full fledged war.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
This upsurge in conflict. What would it mean for the
rest of the world and what countries or what other
countries should be most worried right now other than Iran, say.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
In economic terms, it will push the price of goods up,
especially oil that come out from that part of the world,
because it becomes much more expensive to deal with them.
You're likely to find that most of the region will
not go to conflict, even though that the relationship between
Iran and countries like Saudi and Qatar are not good.
(10:59):
They would want to get or Egypt. They wouldn't want
to get directly involved in the conflict. But the good
news is that this would not become the Third World War.
And that's because neither China nor Russia are actual allies
of Iran. They're friendly with Iran, but there's no military
obligation that they would go and help them. And so
it may expand a little bit. It may pull in
(11:19):
the United States, but I don't think it would pull
in much bigger players, of which a direct conflict between
the superpowers would be the result.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
We've mentioned that Israeli continuing to fight on all separate fronts. Logistically, though,
how long can it put up that fight? How is
its resources and its military world.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Class easily top of the world, And it's not just
in terms of the amount of soldiers that it can field,
which is in the hundreds of thousands when they call
up their reservists, but also in the quality of their
weaponry they have is top class. And of course it
needs to be remembered that Israel is also probably a
nuclear power, and that if terrible things happen, they always
(11:58):
have in their backyard the possibility using whap to mass destruction.
I don't think that will happen here. I think if
you did see a conflict that spread towards Iran, you
would find that Israel would be determined to make sure
that Iran does not accelerate its movement towards the bomb.
And so Iran and the international community are playing cat
and mouse right now over whether they will or won't
(12:18):
develop the bomb. But I think if war broke out
with Israel, Israel would make sure that Iran was retarded
in that space catastrophically.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
So we've mentioned in New Zealand's position if the US
got involved, But what is our position in this at
the moment.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
First off, if there are any Kiwis in Lebanon, they
should leave the area as fast as they can, even
in surrounding countries. They should be listening very closely to
the media, and they should be listening to foreign affairs
updates about where it is and isn't safe. I think
if it escalates more, it would be in the relationship
between Iran and Israel, and that could happen that Israel
(12:55):
is acting faster and with more confidence than it has
done for the last year.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
And listeners been following this conflict would have heard the
term who these what's their role?
Speaker 2 (13:04):
They're based in Yemen, they are another proxy of Iran
Sheha based faith. They've got access to some pretty high
capacity kit and the area I work in his peace
and like what would peace eventually look like? And it's
difficult in an area where you've had seven decades of
war but increasingly betrend is that you're seeing countries being
(13:25):
destroyed and almost ungovernable and impossible to rebuild. And so
a country like Lebanon was barely sustainable economically, and before
the conflict, Syria is in a similar situation. Yemen is
in a similar situation with Gaza. The objective right now
may not be actually to defeat the enemy. It might
be to defeat any chance of them rebuilding a civilized structure.
(13:47):
And so a lot of the Middle East is being
turned into rubble, which will make long term peace difficult,
but also harder for oppositions to rebuild.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
What do you see happening next.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Well, at the moment, Israel will listen to no one
yetna who will do what he deems is most necessary
for the survival and furtherance of interests of his country.
He doesn't listen to the Security Council, he does not
listen to the International Court of Justice. He barely listens
to the United States. And so I think the only
way you can get Israel out of Lebanon is the
(14:20):
Security Council has to become involved. You have to have
a type of peace agreement, and that would involve the
insurgents or his being pushed back a certain distance, a
neutral zone being put place between countries, and then Israel
moved out of Lebanon. That's the pattern we saw in
the nineteen eighties, in the first part of the twenty
first century. So we have been here before and there
(14:42):
is a pattern to be followed. And in the meantime,
what we have to try to make sure is that
we follow the rules of war and humanitarian law to
the highest possible ability so that there's no indiscriminate or
disproportionate or in humane conflict and civilians are kept out
of a line of fire.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Thanks for joining us ou. That's it for this episode
of the Front Page. You can read more about today's
stories and extensive news coverage at enzet Herald dot co
dot nz. The Front Page is produced by Ethan Siles
with sound engineer Patty Fox. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to
(15:19):
the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts,
and tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.
Kiyota. I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page,
a daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. Tensions
in the Middle East are ramping up at an alarming rate.
Israel's defense forces said it's begun a targeted ground operation
(00:26):
into southern Lebanon against terrorist targets. It comes after days
of air strikes within Beirut's city limits, which started after
Israel assassinated HESBLA leader Hassan Nasrallah. The escalation in the
war has killed civilians, destroyed homes, and displaced a million
(00:46):
people in Lebanon. Today on the Front Page, Waikato University
International law professor Ol Gillespie joins us to discuss, first off,
our can you give us an over of what's happening here?
Speaker 2 (01:02):
The war, or the most recent conflict in Gaza has
been a difficult conflict for the last nearly a year now,
and it has been to a degree contained and not
spread over borders. But what you're seeing now is that
the war is starting to expand, and even though there
are different causes, they are related and so what was
(01:23):
once effectively within territory that Israel controlled is now moving
into other countries, and so it's moving into Lebanon in particular.
The risk is that it won't just state to Lebanon,
but it could also move towards Yemen and its potential
maybe in Syria because there's some sympathy in Syria for
some of these causes. But there's one country behind them all,
which is Iran. And so the biggest fear right now
(01:46):
is that Israel and Iran get into a fight. And
it's not just Israel and the puppets because his Bula,
the forces in Yemen, and the forces in Syria are
all controlled by Iran. But right now there's a very
than paper walls stopping that major regional conflict breaking out.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
So who are the main players here and how can
you help us kind of get our head around who
we're looking at.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
So with his Blar, if you're looking at them in
terms of capacity, they've got probably double the amount of
soldiers that Hermas has. They definitely have better military kit
and so as opposed to using rockets, they've also got
things like missiles which are much more precision guided. Their
biggest advantage is that they have got a conduit which
(02:31):
goes directly to Iran, which can give them weapons supply
as they need it, and that's a very different situation
to a gaza where they're fighting with much more limited
resources because they're isolated.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
Where is has Bila based.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
They're based in Lebanon. They are not the Lebanese state.
They are effectively a non governmental militia, but they are
funded directly from Iran. Some countries designate his BLA as
a terrorist entity, which means that you're not allowed to
acknowledge them or work with them, and those who support
them are at risk of criminal charges. New Zealand is
(03:04):
not one of those countries.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
So why has BLA gotten involved this late in the game.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Well, in many ways, the game with his BLA goes
back to the early nineteen eighties, and you can either
see this current conflict as separate or you can see
it as part of a sequence that goes back decades.
And so there have been other times when Israel has
actually made a ground incursion into Lebanon. That happened in
the nineteen eighties, and it happened the early part of
the twenty first century. What they'll be trying to achieve
(03:33):
is to push his BLA back beyond a certain border
so that there's a neutral zone between the two sides,
and if that is achieved, a type of truth may
come down and then Israel might withdraw.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
Two am in Lebanon, where Israel has begun its ground
offensive into the south. Throughout Monday, Israeli as rights continue
to target southern Lebanon. Several Israeli as rights I've had
these southern sub of be ruled. A series of loud
explosions were heard across the city just after midnight. As
Bola says it's fighting back with shelling and rocket attacks.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
They have started attacking Beirute and Lebanon in the last
few days, and it comes just days after Israel assassinated
Hiszbelah leader Hassan Nasraala. The group's vowing to continue fighting
Israel in support of Palestinians, it says them, saying that
they're fighting on behalf of Palestinians. Is that the group's
(04:34):
way of getting involved in this conflict and furthering their
wants and needs.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
The Palestinian issue is a humanitarian catastrophe, and some people
see it in ethical terms, some people see it in
political terms. Some groups use it as a justification for violence,
and Hisbela is currently one of the groups which is
justifying some of their violence against the Israeli state because
(05:00):
the calamity which is happening in Palestine or the occupied territories.
Having said that, if you actually were able to solve
the Palestinian issue with the creation of a Palestinian state
and the two state option, it's unlikely that peace would
break out in the Middle East. You would just solved
one part of the problem. They're connected, but they are
different at the same time, and so even if you
(05:21):
do find a peaceful solution to Palestine, the relationship between
Iran and Israel is very difficult and that could continue
in a difficult way even if peace was found. But
having said that, finding peace with Palestine is it should
be our foremost goal.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
In terms of the conflict that Israel's facing with Hazbillah,
It's come at a time when Benjamin Yatnya, who was
really reaching for that public support. Do you think that
this and the assassination of senior leaders of the group
on behalf of Israel has been a positive for him?
Speaker 2 (05:51):
War is a good distraction for any politician who has
domestic troubles at home, and this isn't just the case
of Israel, and often you will find that a conflict
means that the population becomes concerned with other issues, and
when you're fighting large external enemies, it means that debate
about some of your own policies gets pushed to one side.
(06:11):
So on a personal political level, yes, I think expanding
the war is good for Netanyahu.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
How significant is a ground invasion in Lebanon.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
We've seen ground invasions before. The reason they do it
is to push back the insurgents, which in this case
says Bilarre to a certain distance. The risk is that
a ground invasion presents much more risk to Israeli troops
than aerial bombardment, and that's because they're on the ground
that in an urban environment, and they're fighting an enemy
(06:40):
which is well armed and quite well prepared. It's a
different caliber of conflict to what you would see in Gaza,
because the enemy is larger in terms of manpower, their
munitions are more modern, and their supply lines are strong.
And so the risk for Israel is that they go
into Lebanon or they're going too southern Lebanon, and it
(07:03):
becomes a much harder battlefield objective to find success on
because the enemy is more entrenched, more prepared, and much
better armed.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
In terms of Israel at the moment that fighting wars
on several fronts, Can you give us some examples on
what's happening there.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
So apart from the ongoing conflict in Gaza, they've also
been involved in strikes on Syria, strikes on Yemen. The
only country they have not struck directly is Iran, but
they've clearly provided no shortage of provocation for Iran to
hit them with assassinations on Iranian territory. In short, Israel
(07:49):
is feeling very strong and they're almost provoking Iran into
a greater conflict. But right now, imagine Iran is feeling
quite nervous about that prospect because the superiority of Israeli
military is becoming apparent. And you can see that just
in the way that they've used technology in recent days
to effectively eliminate the entire upper echelon of his Balan.
(08:09):
It's ethically questionable like what they've done, and legally questionable
some of the things like using walkie talkies which explode.
And so I think if you were in Iran right now,
your rhetoric would be high, but you would be very
reluctant to go toe to toe with Israel in this conflict.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
What would it take for Iran to get personally involved
in this What do you think would be the straw
that would break their back?
Speaker 2 (08:31):
There's been plenty of straws so far. There's been provocative actions,
and you may remember a couple of months ago when
Iran sent three hundred missiles towards Israel following an assassination,
and so there's no shortage of provocations in terms of assassinations.
The thing that would tip it would be a direct
(08:52):
attack on Iranian territory, but I think Israel's got no
intention to do that unless Iran started to shoot missiles
directly at them again. But Iran's got no need to
do that, because they can just push their munitions towards
Lebanon and let his Billad do it for them, or
push them towards Yemen and let the Huthi do it
for them, or push them towards Syria. Iran doesn't need
(09:14):
to fight directly. It can just fund this war from
Afar and hopefully for the Iranians, keep them safe from
Israeli bombs.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
I suppose this escalation is putting the US in a
very difficult position.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
If Iran gets involved in the conflict directly, it's quite
possible that the United States will get involved as well,
and that would have implications not just for America and
they're run up with their presidential campaign, but also for
countries like New Zealand, because we are part of a
group of ten countries which have pledged to help keep
the international waterway of the Red Sea open, and so
(09:48):
if it kicked off in your worst case scenario, it's
possible that New Zealand could be asked to do more
to help protect the Red Sea.
Speaker 4 (09:57):
I am guessing that the United States wants to avoid
any kind of direct alliance with Israel on this, but
will provide them with the necessary weapons, including the bomb
that took out Hassan Nasralla just a couple of days ago.
So I think that the United States wants to avoid
escalation in which they will have to take part a
direct part in as Iran has over the past few months.
(10:20):
But it remains to be seen if they will be
dragged into a more full fledged war.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
This upsurge in conflict. What would it mean for the
rest of the world and what countries or what other
countries should be most worried right now other than Iran, say.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
In economic terms, it will push the price of goods up,
especially oil that come out from that part of the world,
because it becomes much more expensive to deal with them.
You're likely to find that most of the region will
not go to conflict, even though that the relationship between
Iran and countries like Saudi and Qatar are not good.
(10:59):
They would want to get or Egypt. They wouldn't want
to get directly involved in the conflict. But the good
news is that this would not become the Third World War.
And that's because neither China nor Russia are actual allies
of Iran. They're friendly with Iran, but there's no military
obligation that they would go and help them. And so
it may expand a little bit. It may pull in
(11:19):
the United States, but I don't think it would pull
in much bigger players, of which a direct conflict between
the superpowers would be the result.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
We've mentioned that Israeli continuing to fight on all separate fronts. Logistically, though,
how long can it put up that fight? How is
its resources and its military world.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Class easily top of the world, And it's not just
in terms of the amount of soldiers that it can field,
which is in the hundreds of thousands when they call
up their reservists, but also in the quality of their
weaponry they have is top class. And of course it
needs to be remembered that Israel is also probably a
nuclear power, and that if terrible things happen, they always
(11:58):
have in their backyard the possibility using whap to mass destruction.
I don't think that will happen here. I think if
you did see a conflict that spread towards Iran, you
would find that Israel would be determined to make sure
that Iran does not accelerate its movement towards the bomb.
And so Iran and the international community are playing cat
and mouse right now over whether they will or won't
(12:18):
develop the bomb. But I think if war broke out
with Israel, Israel would make sure that Iran was retarded
in that space catastrophically.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
So we've mentioned in New Zealand's position if the US
got involved, But what is our position in this at
the moment.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
First off, if there are any Kiwis in Lebanon, they
should leave the area as fast as they can, even
in surrounding countries. They should be listening very closely to
the media, and they should be listening to foreign affairs
updates about where it is and isn't safe. I think
if it escalates more, it would be in the relationship
between Iran and Israel, and that could happen that Israel
(12:55):
is acting faster and with more confidence than it has
done for the last year.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
And listeners been following this conflict would have heard the
term who these what's their role?
Speaker 2 (13:04):
They're based in Yemen, they are another proxy of Iran
Sheha based faith. They've got access to some pretty high
capacity kit and the area I work in his peace
and like what would peace eventually look like? And it's
difficult in an area where you've had seven decades of
war but increasingly betrend is that you're seeing countries being
(13:25):
destroyed and almost ungovernable and impossible to rebuild. And so
a country like Lebanon was barely sustainable economically, and before
the conflict, Syria is in a similar situation. Yemen is
in a similar situation with Gaza. The objective right now
may not be actually to defeat the enemy. It might
be to defeat any chance of them rebuilding a civilized structure.
(13:47):
And so a lot of the Middle East is being
turned into rubble, which will make long term peace difficult,
but also harder for oppositions to rebuild.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
What do you see happening next.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Well, at the moment, Israel will listen to no one
yetna who will do what he deems is most necessary
for the survival and furtherance of interests of his country.
He doesn't listen to the Security Council, he does not
listen to the International Court of Justice. He barely listens
to the United States. And so I think the only
way you can get Israel out of Lebanon is the
(14:20):
Security Council has to become involved. You have to have
a type of peace agreement, and that would involve the
insurgents or his being pushed back a certain distance, a
neutral zone being put place between countries, and then Israel
moved out of Lebanon. That's the pattern we saw in
the nineteen eighties, in the first part of the twenty
first century. So we have been here before and there
(14:42):
is a pattern to be followed. And in the meantime,
what we have to try to make sure is that
we follow the rules of war and humanitarian law to
the highest possible ability so that there's no indiscriminate or
disproportionate or in humane conflict and civilians are kept out
of a line of fire.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Thanks for joining us ou. That's it for this episode
of the Front Page. You can read more about today's
stories and extensive news coverage at enzet Herald dot co
dot nz. The Front Page is produced by Ethan Siles
with sound engineer Patty Fox. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to
(15:19):
the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts,
and tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.
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