November 12, 2025 • 23 mins
It’s been revealed that Police ignored sex allegations against a former top cop, and instead prosecuted a woman for ‘revenge emails’.
The woman had emailed police, politicians, and newsrooms accusing former deputy police commissioner Jevon McSkimming of being a sexual predator.
The police watchdog has released a scathing 135-page report into how the allegations were treated, and how the “ambitions of a senior police officer were put above the interests of a vulnerable woman”.
Police Commissioner Richard Chambers said she was “ignored and badly let down”.
He has said it makes for “appalling reading” and the conduct of the former top brass is “inexcusable”.
He was briefed about the situation just two days before he stepped into the top role.
During the course of the investigation, detectives discovered McSkimming had used his work devices to search for pornography, including bestiality and child sex exploitation material, for at least five years.
The 52-year-old resigned in disgrace and was later charged with possession of objectionable material. He’s pleaded guilty last week and will be sentenced next month.
This whole ordeal has been indisputably damaging to one of the most important institutions in our country.
Later we’ll speak to HELP Auckland’s executive director Kathryn McPhillips about how to support anyone who has experienced sexual abuse.
But first, someone who knows all too well what it’s like to step up to those in power is Louise Nicholas.
She alleged police officers raped her as a teen in the 80s, this resulted in criminal trials, a Commission of Inquiry, and an officer being jailed for attempting to pervert the course of justice.
She is a campaigner for victims of sexual assault, and joins us now on The Front Page.
Follow The Front Page on iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
You can read more about this and other stories in the New Zealand Herald, online at nzherald.co.nz, or tune in to news bulletins across the NZME network.
Host: Chelsea Daniels
Editor/Producer: Richard Martin
Producer: Jane Yee
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Kilda.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm Chelsea Daniels and This is the Front Page, a
daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. It's been
revealed that police ignored sex allegations against a former top
cop and instead prosecuted a woman for revenge emails. The
(00:27):
woman had emailed police, politicians and newsrooms accusing former Deputy
Police Commissioner Jevin mcskimming of being a sexual predator. The
Police watchdog has released a scathing one hundred and thirty
five page report into how the allegations were treated and
how the ambitions of a senior police officer were put
(00:49):
above the interests of a vulnerable woman. Police Commissioner Richard
Chambers has said she was ignored and badly let down.
He said it makes four appalling reading and the conduct
of the former top brass is inexcusable. He was briefed
about the situation just two days before he stepped into
(01:10):
the role, and during the course of the investigation, detectives
discovered mcskimming had used his work devices to search for pornography,
including beast reality and child sex exploitation material for at
least five years. The fifty two year old resigned in
disgrace and was later charged. He's pleaded guilty last week
(01:31):
and will be sentenced next month. This whole ordeal has
been indisputably damaging to one of the most important institutions
in our country. Later, we'll speak to help Auckland's executive director,
Catherine McPhillips about how to support anyone who has experienced
sexual abuse. But first, someone who knows all too well
(01:56):
what it's like to step up to those in power
is law Nicholas. She alleged police officers raped her as
a teen in the eighties and this resulted in criminal trials,
a commission of inquiry, and an officer being jailed for
attempting to pervert the course of justice. She is a
campaigner for victims of sexual assault and joins us now
(02:19):
on the front page. First off, Louise, when you heard
this news, what was your first reaction?
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Oh, just belief and then sadness and then anger and
a bit of deja booth thrown in amongst it all.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Yeah, and that deja vuo that would bring back some
pretty heavy feelings for you hearing about that happening in
the police force again.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
Yeah, yeah, And I think that's that's what It was
that kind of like kicked me back into that time.
But I soon realized that this is it came across
as this time police were actually doing something about it
(03:14):
and not dragging the chain or dragging it out or
you know, putting their hands up and saying nah, not
us sort of thing. They were onto it being straight away.
As soon as that IPCA report came out, it was
all on.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
So hearing Richard Chambers and Mark Mitchell speak, was that
quite a bit different than what you experienced.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Yeah, absolutely absolutely. It was like I wouldn't say a
breath of fresh air, but it just it gave me.
It made me feel this is actually going to be
okay in the long run because they are onto it.
They're acknowledging the harm, they're acknowledging the survivor, they're acknowledging
(03:57):
where police have gone wrong with that team that covered
everything up. So for me, it was this is going
to be okay, better sweet pretty much. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
When there are questions around public trust in police, I
suppose the response is usually something like, you know, these
kind of things happen, that's rotten apples in the basket.
But the majority, I mean, it'd be hitting the thousands
of sworn and unsworn police officers, mind you pretty hard
at the moment. What's your first thought when you hear
statements like that?
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Immediately go to those that are actually doing the work
and doing the work really, really well, to a point
that you know, this is why our survivors are coming forward.
It's because of the the empathy, the integrity that take
the cop hat off and actually be human when they're
(04:56):
dealing with our survivors that are going through this. You know,
the just describes this this horror, and you've got a
copper sitting there in front of them, acknowledging the harm
and saying, we will do what we can and you
can't be I wish that had happened way back in
(05:17):
the day, you know, but it is happening now.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
The Independent Police Conduct Authority did an investigation, I suppose
whether the allegations were true, and that's not their role here,
but it did find police ignored the woman at the
center of this, delayed the investigation, and accepted mixed Skimming's
version of versions of events.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
What message do you.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Think that that sends anyone kind of weighing up at
the moment whether or not to come forward about something
like this.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Well, I think what we've got to remember it was
senior star that took control of that investigation and when
somebody from you know, underneath that came in and challenged
what they were doing. That to me is the hope
that New Zealanders need to remember that there's always somebody
(06:09):
within the New Zealand place. They've got you back. They
absolutely have. And when I heard that actually how it
all unfolded, I thought, yeah, that you've got people that
aren't the bad eggs, that are the good people that
are that are helping our communities. And so for me
(06:30):
it was a revelation of thoughts.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
That something's actually happening.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Yeah, absolutely, that somebody's actually you know, taking the bull
by the horns and bringing the people that are doing
the bad to account.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Yeah. I did find solace in the fact that despite
I suppose the efforts efforts to keep this all covered up,
there were a few staffers who made sure that it
made the light of day.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
Judith Collins said it herself when she said was.
Speaker 4 (07:00):
All was some sort of group think going on, but
there were thankfully at least three people, lower ranked people
who stood up for what they knew was the right thing,
and one of them sent this matter as the IPCA
as a complaint, and without her work and their work
of the others, this might never have seen the light
(07:20):
of day.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
Do you wish that there were some junior staff as
a woman there, lower in the ranks there in your situation.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Yeah, instead of a reporter what it was, you know,
And that's what it took somebody within the media to
actually acknowledge and investigate and show that there was all
this corruptness going on and all this harm being done
to not only the South, but to how many others.
(07:55):
And he took the ball by the horns and did
something about it. And it's kind of like it's mirrored
with the police that you know, the lower ranked police
officers that did exactly the same thing. That is what
the change has been. They believed, without a doubt, absolutely
(08:16):
they saw that process and protocol and everything, you know,
it's standard in how to investigate a disclosure of that type,
and that was just shoved under and yeah, they did everything.
They questioned why this wasn't happening, why are you doing this?
(08:37):
And so because of that it brought it to the
light of day.
Speaker 5 (08:47):
We will continue to do what is needed to ensure
this does not happen again. The police have also accepted
all the recommendations in the report. The Police Commissioner will
speak to that and more details shortly. The New Zealand
Police enjoy strong public trust and confidence. It is imperative
(09:09):
that this trust is maintained. That comes with strong action
on the part of the government. Finally, I do want
to stress that these adverse findings should not be seen
as a reflection on our police service as a whole.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
When you look back at what you've been through with
the police in the past, obviously from the eighties until
the early two thousands up until you know now and
you now work with police, you with the sexual assault
advocacy work that you do, did you personally find it
(09:52):
difficult to regain that trust or for the police?
Speaker 1 (09:58):
In the beginning, absolutely trust them and I told them
that to their basis, especially going through the thought process
and that you know, they were wanting me to make
another statement to do this, and I kept saying, no,
I'm not doing that. I don't trust you, bastards was
my words. But it's been over. It was a huge
(10:21):
learning for myself and it was a conclusion that I
came to that it wasn't the New Zealand police that
hurt me. It was individuals with them. And it's the
same for this as well. And that's why I'm advocating
on you know, on behalf of those police people that
I work alongside, that my team works alongside every single
(10:43):
day right across the country, is that we're advocating for
you because we know that you're doing the best that
you can for our survivors. And so it wasn't you,
as an individual who did what that senior do it
up the ring. And that's what people need to understand.
Don't define what we're skimming and those others did and say, well,
(11:09):
every cops are saying no, no, it's not.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
If there is someone out there right now struggling and
they want to come forward with any allegation something's happened
to them, they've survived something horrific and they they felt
knocked back by what's happened, and when the story came out,
they kind.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
Of took a step back.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
I suppose, what would you tell them to take that
couple of steps forward?
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Yep, please take that couple of steps forward. There are
agencies right across organizations right across New Zealand that can
support you. And the core thing that we have worked
hard alongside police with is how do we get that
first describe it. How do we get our survivors to
trust in the police and in the process. And it's
(12:01):
quite simple. It's like a meet and greet. So we
meet with a detective who is in the Adult Sexual
Assault team or in the child Protection team or you know,
and we have that conversation. And we have done that
hundreds of times and not one survivors turned around and said,
I'm not doing this because it's about bringing together and
(12:25):
helping each other. The police officer and the survivor and
the FARNO actually understand what this process is all about.
And it's in a safe place. It's not at the
police station. It's a mutual area and yeah, that's what works.
(12:46):
If you're unsure, pick up the phone, whether it's you
rape crisis, whether it's the Luise Nicholas, trust, it doesn't
matter who, and then ask the information and guidance. If
we're there to guide, we're there to advocate on your
behalf to do what we can. Because we know we
have that lived experience, we understand the trauma. We understand that,
(13:11):
you know, taking that keep forward into Actually I want
to tell my story. How do I do that?
Speaker 3 (13:16):
Do you remember what was going through your head before
you told your story?
Speaker 1 (13:20):
Yeah, I absolutely it was I can't because I need
to protect everyone around me. No one's going to believe me.
Look who I'm up against. You know, I'm going to
be telling the story of a rape by members of
the New Zealand place. Who the hell I'm going to
believe me? But it was the sup thought I had
(13:44):
with my family, especially my husband, who said that you can.
You can do this because everything that has happened to
you is not your fault. And that's what our survivors
need to understand and appreciate that you now have an
opportunity to right the wrongs of the past. And for me,
(14:04):
when I talk to our survivors, it's I always say
to them, it's not about the destination, it's the journey.
And regardless of the outcome if it gets to court,
regardless of the outcome, you have told you have held
that person to account. You have taken back the power
(14:27):
that was taken from you. And it's amazing how our
survivors go into the process with their heads down and
they walk out the other side going I did it,
I did it. It is our absolutely, you can absolutely
as our justice system and the way we have to
(14:48):
go through this process. Okay, no, it's not easy. I'm
not going to lie. But at the end of the day,
all you can do is tell you the truth and
it doesn't matter what anyone else throws at you. You
can stand to you tell your truth and it's all
you've got to do.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
Thanks so much for joining us, Louise.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
No worries at all. Thank you for having them Man Help.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
Auckland was set up in nineteen eighty two and has
been a specialist provider of sexual abuse support services in
Tatnicke Makodo ever since. Executive director Katherine McPhillips is a
clinical psychologist and joins us now on the front page. So, Catherine,
what was your first reaction when you heard the details
(15:38):
about the woman at the center.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
Of all this.
Speaker 6 (15:41):
Well, you know, first reaction is to feel empathy for her.
To be honest, she's been through a terrible ordeal over
some years, through all of this, but I have to
say it's not an uncommon story, not in terms of
you know, the nature of the role of the person
who was hurting her or you know, all of the
(16:05):
investigation that followed. But certainly men in positions of power.
It's not uncommon for us to hear kind of stories
where where women are victimized over quite a period of
time and try to get out of those situations or
alert other people to it and don't get listened to.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
How do you think sexual assault survivors felt at hearing
about this case, Well.
Speaker 6 (16:29):
You know, really concerned that it will diminish people's trust
in the police and make people feel, you know, even
more unsafe to go and report to police.
Speaker 7 (16:39):
It's it's a really hard thing to do to do
that anyway, and.
Speaker 6 (16:43):
This kind of you know, finding out about this kind
of thing having occurred just you know, not just that down.
And to be honest, we've you know, New Zealand's been
quite slow to get up our reporting and you know
we've only just in the last year or so been
getting those reporting rapes up. So, you know, my concern
is that it will lead people to feel concerned that
they won't be listened to, they won't be heard, and you.
Speaker 7 (17:05):
Know that they'll be blamed for what's happened to them,
and so yeah.
Speaker 6 (17:09):
I think it's really important that people understand that there
are support services in place, so services like help where
I am, there's services right across the country. So if
you go to a police station to make a complaint
of sexual assault, you know that there is an independent
support person there with you through that process, and that
those services available to you for as long as you
(17:32):
need them.
Speaker 7 (17:34):
And you know that's a you.
Speaker 6 (17:36):
Know, we're there to ensure that or kind of to
promote people's well being through the process, but that certainly
can involve talking with the police if things are going astray.
You know, we work with police every day, so we
have those kind of relationships where we are able to ask, oh,
you know, why is that happening, and you know, be in.
Speaker 7 (17:57):
That place to support people.
Speaker 6 (17:58):
So I really want to know that you're not only
trusting the police if you want to make those complaints,
but there are independent support people there as well.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
I want to apologize to the woman at the center
of this for the repeated early failures in following the
proper processes investigating this matter by those at such a
senior level of police. You had asked for help, you
would badly let down. That was unacceptable.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
What are some of the biggest barriers in general for
people to come forward other than I mean, I guess
it would be really scary going to police in the
first place.
Speaker 7 (18:44):
Hey, yeah, it's really scary.
Speaker 6 (18:46):
But you know, big barrier is that you don't expect
to be believed often, you know, that's the nature of grooming,
that's the nature of sexual violence, and you know, that's
why it's so important that people who are responding to
complaints really do understand the dynamics that a lot of time,
what that grooman does is, you know, the person causing
(19:06):
harm will do things and say things to diminish the
person or you know, as appears to have occurred in
this situation.
Speaker 7 (19:16):
They groom the environment that they're in.
Speaker 6 (19:18):
So, you know, an example of that here is that
you know that you talk negatively about the person before
they've even made a complaint, so that when that complaint
comes in.
Speaker 7 (19:28):
The person isn't believed.
Speaker 6 (19:29):
You know, that's a really really common dynamic of sexual violence,
and so you know, we really need to make sure
that the people responsible for responding to complaints, you know,
are always informed about those dynamics and certainly, the you know,
the sex assault police teams at the front Light are
informed about those but you know, one you know, reading
the IPCA report, you have to question whether the police
(19:51):
hire up.
Speaker 7 (19:52):
We're well informed about those dynamics.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
If someone was to come to you for advice and
they had been sitting on something and they were ready
to come forward, but then they see something like this
happening and it kind of you know, pushes them back
a little bit, what kind of advice would you give them?
Speaker 6 (20:07):
Yeah, I mean, so we would talk to them about
what they needed to feel safe.
Speaker 7 (20:11):
I mean, it's always their decision.
Speaker 6 (20:12):
There's no pressure from us about whether you report or
don't report, because it really has to be the.
Speaker 7 (20:17):
Individual's decision on that.
Speaker 6 (20:19):
But really, I mean the kinds of things that we
would do is talk with them through their worries, talk
with them about how those worries might be addressed. You know,
if they wanted to make that complaint, then we would
make sure that we were with them and you know,
fully able to support them through the process.
Speaker 7 (20:35):
But it really is an individual decision, and.
Speaker 6 (20:39):
You know, I think that that can be hard sometimes
for friends and family to understand.
Speaker 7 (20:43):
They're like, well, why aren't you reporting? Why don't you're reporting?
But it is a tough process.
Speaker 6 (20:47):
You have to talk about things which can feel shaving
and that are very intimate, and you know, the reality is,
you know we see from things like the Gender Attitudes
Survey for example, you know there are lots of New
Zealanders who do don't blame people who are victims of
sexual assaultants. So there is always that wondering and so
(21:09):
you know, people really have to make that decision themselves
about whether they want to go forward with a complaint
or not.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
And I suppose psychologically as well bringing up those things
and speaking about them, I guess people may not understand
that PTSD you actually feel those emotions, You feel like
you did at the time that it happens. So it
doesn't matter whether it's a couple of years, a couple
of months, or a couple of decades afterwards, right.
Speaker 6 (21:33):
Yes, absolutely, absolutely, so thinking about it can you know,
we call that an internal trigger that can.
Speaker 7 (21:39):
Take you back to those feelings.
Speaker 6 (21:41):
But certainly being in a situation where somebody's asking you
about it can put you back in that place, or
even if there's dynamics going on that just remind you
of those experiences, and so you know that's the reason
for those independence support people being there is that we
can help people get through that process keeping their well
being as intact as possible.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
And I suppose Fano and friends can come to you
as well for advice if they have somebody close to
them who has experienced this or is going through something
like this.
Speaker 6 (22:11):
Absolutely, we welcome our friends and Fano coming to us
because you know, we're in people's lives for a short
period of time. Your friends and your family are around
your long term, so the better equipped that they are
to support survivors are the better.
Speaker 3 (22:27):
Thank you so much for joining us, Catherine.
Speaker 7 (22:29):
Thanks Chelsea.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
at enzadherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is
produced by Jane Yee and Richard Martin, who's also our editor.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
I'm Chelsea Daniels.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you
get your.
Speaker 3 (22:54):
Podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.
Speaker 7 (23:00):
Four
Kilda.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm Chelsea Daniels and This is the Front Page, a
daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. It's been
revealed that police ignored sex allegations against a former top
cop and instead prosecuted a woman for revenge emails. The
(00:27):
woman had emailed police, politicians and newsrooms accusing former Deputy
Police Commissioner Jevin mcskimming of being a sexual predator. The
Police watchdog has released a scathing one hundred and thirty
five page report into how the allegations were treated and
how the ambitions of a senior police officer were put
(00:49):
above the interests of a vulnerable woman. Police Commissioner Richard
Chambers has said she was ignored and badly let down.
He said it makes four appalling reading and the conduct
of the former top brass is inexcusable. He was briefed
about the situation just two days before he stepped into
(01:10):
the role, and during the course of the investigation, detectives
discovered mcskimming had used his work devices to search for pornography,
including beast reality and child sex exploitation material for at
least five years. The fifty two year old resigned in
disgrace and was later charged. He's pleaded guilty last week
(01:31):
and will be sentenced next month. This whole ordeal has
been indisputably damaging to one of the most important institutions
in our country. Later, we'll speak to help Auckland's executive director,
Catherine McPhillips about how to support anyone who has experienced
sexual abuse. But first, someone who knows all too well
(01:56):
what it's like to step up to those in power
is law Nicholas. She alleged police officers raped her as
a teen in the eighties and this resulted in criminal trials,
a commission of inquiry, and an officer being jailed for
attempting to pervert the course of justice. She is a
campaigner for victims of sexual assault and joins us now
(02:19):
on the front page. First off, Louise, when you heard
this news, what was your first reaction?
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Oh, just belief and then sadness and then anger and
a bit of deja booth thrown in amongst it all.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Yeah, and that deja vuo that would bring back some
pretty heavy feelings for you hearing about that happening in
the police force again.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
Yeah, yeah, And I think that's that's what It was
that kind of like kicked me back into that time.
But I soon realized that this is it came across
as this time police were actually doing something about it
(03:14):
and not dragging the chain or dragging it out or
you know, putting their hands up and saying nah, not
us sort of thing. They were onto it being straight away.
As soon as that IPCA report came out, it was
all on.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
So hearing Richard Chambers and Mark Mitchell speak, was that
quite a bit different than what you experienced.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Yeah, absolutely absolutely. It was like I wouldn't say a
breath of fresh air, but it just it gave me.
It made me feel this is actually going to be
okay in the long run because they are onto it.
They're acknowledging the harm, they're acknowledging the survivor, they're acknowledging
(03:57):
where police have gone wrong with that team that covered
everything up. So for me, it was this is going
to be okay, better sweet pretty much. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
When there are questions around public trust in police, I
suppose the response is usually something like, you know, these
kind of things happen, that's rotten apples in the basket.
But the majority, I mean, it'd be hitting the thousands
of sworn and unsworn police officers, mind you pretty hard
at the moment. What's your first thought when you hear
statements like that?
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Immediately go to those that are actually doing the work
and doing the work really, really well, to a point
that you know, this is why our survivors are coming forward.
It's because of the the empathy, the integrity that take
the cop hat off and actually be human when they're
(04:56):
dealing with our survivors that are going through this. You know,
the just describes this this horror, and you've got a
copper sitting there in front of them, acknowledging the harm
and saying, we will do what we can and you
can't be I wish that had happened way back in
(05:17):
the day, you know, but it is happening now.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
The Independent Police Conduct Authority did an investigation, I suppose
whether the allegations were true, and that's not their role here,
but it did find police ignored the woman at the
center of this, delayed the investigation, and accepted mixed Skimming's
version of versions of events.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
What message do you.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Think that that sends anyone kind of weighing up at
the moment whether or not to come forward about something
like this.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Well, I think what we've got to remember it was
senior star that took control of that investigation and when
somebody from you know, underneath that came in and challenged
what they were doing. That to me is the hope
that New Zealanders need to remember that there's always somebody
(06:09):
within the New Zealand place. They've got you back. They
absolutely have. And when I heard that actually how it
all unfolded, I thought, yeah, that you've got people that
aren't the bad eggs, that are the good people that
are that are helping our communities. And so for me
(06:30):
it was a revelation of thoughts.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
That something's actually happening.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Yeah, absolutely, that somebody's actually you know, taking the bull
by the horns and bringing the people that are doing
the bad to account.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Yeah. I did find solace in the fact that despite
I suppose the efforts efforts to keep this all covered up,
there were a few staffers who made sure that it
made the light of day.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
Judith Collins said it herself when she said was.
Speaker 4 (07:00):
All was some sort of group think going on, but
there were thankfully at least three people, lower ranked people
who stood up for what they knew was the right thing,
and one of them sent this matter as the IPCA
as a complaint, and without her work and their work
of the others, this might never have seen the light
(07:20):
of day.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
Do you wish that there were some junior staff as
a woman there, lower in the ranks there in your situation.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Yeah, instead of a reporter what it was, you know,
And that's what it took somebody within the media to
actually acknowledge and investigate and show that there was all
this corruptness going on and all this harm being done
to not only the South, but to how many others.
(07:55):
And he took the ball by the horns and did
something about it. And it's kind of like it's mirrored
with the police that you know, the lower ranked police
officers that did exactly the same thing. That is what
the change has been. They believed, without a doubt, absolutely
(08:16):
they saw that process and protocol and everything, you know,
it's standard in how to investigate a disclosure of that type,
and that was just shoved under and yeah, they did everything.
They questioned why this wasn't happening, why are you doing this?
(08:37):
And so because of that it brought it to the
light of day.
Speaker 5 (08:47):
We will continue to do what is needed to ensure
this does not happen again. The police have also accepted
all the recommendations in the report. The Police Commissioner will
speak to that and more details shortly. The New Zealand
Police enjoy strong public trust and confidence. It is imperative
(09:09):
that this trust is maintained. That comes with strong action
on the part of the government. Finally, I do want
to stress that these adverse findings should not be seen
as a reflection on our police service as a whole.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
When you look back at what you've been through with
the police in the past, obviously from the eighties until
the early two thousands up until you know now and
you now work with police, you with the sexual assault
advocacy work that you do, did you personally find it
(09:52):
difficult to regain that trust or for the police?
Speaker 1 (09:58):
In the beginning, absolutely trust them and I told them
that to their basis, especially going through the thought process
and that you know, they were wanting me to make
another statement to do this, and I kept saying, no,
I'm not doing that. I don't trust you, bastards was
my words. But it's been over. It was a huge
(10:21):
learning for myself and it was a conclusion that I
came to that it wasn't the New Zealand police that
hurt me. It was individuals with them. And it's the
same for this as well. And that's why I'm advocating
on you know, on behalf of those police people that
I work alongside, that my team works alongside every single
(10:43):
day right across the country, is that we're advocating for
you because we know that you're doing the best that
you can for our survivors. And so it wasn't you,
as an individual who did what that senior do it
up the ring. And that's what people need to understand.
Don't define what we're skimming and those others did and say, well,
(11:09):
every cops are saying no, no, it's not.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
If there is someone out there right now struggling and
they want to come forward with any allegation something's happened
to them, they've survived something horrific and they they felt
knocked back by what's happened, and when the story came out,
they kind.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
Of took a step back.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
I suppose, what would you tell them to take that
couple of steps forward?
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Yep, please take that couple of steps forward. There are
agencies right across organizations right across New Zealand that can
support you. And the core thing that we have worked
hard alongside police with is how do we get that
first describe it. How do we get our survivors to
trust in the police and in the process. And it's
(12:01):
quite simple. It's like a meet and greet. So we
meet with a detective who is in the Adult Sexual
Assault team or in the child Protection team or you know,
and we have that conversation. And we have done that
hundreds of times and not one survivors turned around and said,
I'm not doing this because it's about bringing together and
(12:25):
helping each other. The police officer and the survivor and
the FARNO actually understand what this process is all about.
And it's in a safe place. It's not at the
police station. It's a mutual area and yeah, that's what works.
(12:46):
If you're unsure, pick up the phone, whether it's you
rape crisis, whether it's the Luise Nicholas, trust, it doesn't
matter who, and then ask the information and guidance. If
we're there to guide, we're there to advocate on your
behalf to do what we can. Because we know we
have that lived experience, we understand the trauma. We understand that,
(13:11):
you know, taking that keep forward into Actually I want
to tell my story. How do I do that?
Speaker 3 (13:16):
Do you remember what was going through your head before
you told your story?
Speaker 1 (13:20):
Yeah, I absolutely it was I can't because I need
to protect everyone around me. No one's going to believe me.
Look who I'm up against. You know, I'm going to
be telling the story of a rape by members of
the New Zealand place. Who the hell I'm going to
believe me? But it was the sup thought I had
(13:44):
with my family, especially my husband, who said that you can.
You can do this because everything that has happened to
you is not your fault. And that's what our survivors
need to understand and appreciate that you now have an
opportunity to right the wrongs of the past. And for me,
(14:04):
when I talk to our survivors, it's I always say
to them, it's not about the destination, it's the journey.
And regardless of the outcome if it gets to court,
regardless of the outcome, you have told you have held
that person to account. You have taken back the power
(14:27):
that was taken from you. And it's amazing how our
survivors go into the process with their heads down and
they walk out the other side going I did it,
I did it. It is our absolutely, you can absolutely
as our justice system and the way we have to
(14:48):
go through this process. Okay, no, it's not easy. I'm
not going to lie. But at the end of the day,
all you can do is tell you the truth and
it doesn't matter what anyone else throws at you. You
can stand to you tell your truth and it's all
you've got to do.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
Thanks so much for joining us, Louise.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
No worries at all. Thank you for having them Man Help.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
Auckland was set up in nineteen eighty two and has
been a specialist provider of sexual abuse support services in
Tatnicke Makodo ever since. Executive director Katherine McPhillips is a
clinical psychologist and joins us now on the front page. So, Catherine,
what was your first reaction when you heard the details
(15:38):
about the woman at the center.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
Of all this.
Speaker 6 (15:41):
Well, you know, first reaction is to feel empathy for her.
To be honest, she's been through a terrible ordeal over
some years, through all of this, but I have to
say it's not an uncommon story, not in terms of
you know, the nature of the role of the person
who was hurting her or you know, all of the
(16:05):
investigation that followed. But certainly men in positions of power.
It's not uncommon for us to hear kind of stories
where where women are victimized over quite a period of
time and try to get out of those situations or
alert other people to it and don't get listened to.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
How do you think sexual assault survivors felt at hearing
about this case, Well.
Speaker 6 (16:29):
You know, really concerned that it will diminish people's trust
in the police and make people feel, you know, even
more unsafe to go and report to police.
Speaker 7 (16:39):
It's it's a really hard thing to do to do
that anyway, and.
Speaker 6 (16:43):
This kind of you know, finding out about this kind
of thing having occurred just you know, not just that down.
And to be honest, we've you know, New Zealand's been
quite slow to get up our reporting and you know
we've only just in the last year or so been
getting those reporting rapes up. So, you know, my concern
is that it will lead people to feel concerned that
they won't be listened to, they won't be heard, and you.
Speaker 7 (17:05):
Know that they'll be blamed for what's happened to them,
and so yeah.
Speaker 6 (17:09):
I think it's really important that people understand that there
are support services in place, so services like help where
I am, there's services right across the country. So if
you go to a police station to make a complaint
of sexual assault, you know that there is an independent
support person there with you through that process, and that
those services available to you for as long as you
(17:32):
need them.
Speaker 7 (17:34):
And you know that's a you.
Speaker 6 (17:36):
Know, we're there to ensure that or kind of to
promote people's well being through the process, but that certainly
can involve talking with the police if things are going astray.
You know, we work with police every day, so we
have those kind of relationships where we are able to ask, oh,
you know, why is that happening, and you know, be in.
Speaker 7 (17:57):
That place to support people.
Speaker 6 (17:58):
So I really want to know that you're not only
trusting the police if you want to make those complaints,
but there are independent support people there as well.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
I want to apologize to the woman at the center
of this for the repeated early failures in following the
proper processes investigating this matter by those at such a
senior level of police. You had asked for help, you
would badly let down. That was unacceptable.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
What are some of the biggest barriers in general for
people to come forward other than I mean, I guess
it would be really scary going to police in the
first place.
Speaker 7 (18:44):
Hey, yeah, it's really scary.
Speaker 6 (18:46):
But you know, big barrier is that you don't expect
to be believed often, you know, that's the nature of grooming,
that's the nature of sexual violence, and you know, that's
why it's so important that people who are responding to
complaints really do understand the dynamics that a lot of time,
what that grooman does is, you know, the person causing
(19:06):
harm will do things and say things to diminish the
person or you know, as appears to have occurred in
this situation.
Speaker 7 (19:16):
They groom the environment that they're in.
Speaker 6 (19:18):
So, you know, an example of that here is that
you know that you talk negatively about the person before
they've even made a complaint, so that when that complaint
comes in.
Speaker 7 (19:28):
The person isn't believed.
Speaker 6 (19:29):
You know, that's a really really common dynamic of sexual violence,
and so you know, we really need to make sure
that the people responsible for responding to complaints, you know,
are always informed about those dynamics and certainly, the you know,
the sex assault police teams at the front Light are
informed about those but you know, one you know, reading
the IPCA report, you have to question whether the police
(19:51):
hire up.
Speaker 7 (19:52):
We're well informed about those dynamics.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
If someone was to come to you for advice and
they had been sitting on something and they were ready
to come forward, but then they see something like this
happening and it kind of you know, pushes them back
a little bit, what kind of advice would you give them?
Speaker 6 (20:07):
Yeah, I mean, so we would talk to them about
what they needed to feel safe.
Speaker 7 (20:11):
I mean, it's always their decision.
Speaker 6 (20:12):
There's no pressure from us about whether you report or
don't report, because it really has to be the.
Speaker 7 (20:17):
Individual's decision on that.
Speaker 6 (20:19):
But really, I mean the kinds of things that we
would do is talk with them through their worries, talk
with them about how those worries might be addressed. You know,
if they wanted to make that complaint, then we would
make sure that we were with them and you know,
fully able to support them through the process.
Speaker 7 (20:35):
But it really is an individual decision, and.
Speaker 6 (20:39):
You know, I think that that can be hard sometimes
for friends and family to understand.
Speaker 7 (20:43):
They're like, well, why aren't you reporting? Why don't you're reporting?
But it is a tough process.
Speaker 6 (20:47):
You have to talk about things which can feel shaving
and that are very intimate, and you know, the reality is,
you know we see from things like the Gender Attitudes
Survey for example, you know there are lots of New
Zealanders who do don't blame people who are victims of
sexual assaultants. So there is always that wondering and so
(21:09):
you know, people really have to make that decision themselves
about whether they want to go forward with a complaint
or not.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
And I suppose psychologically as well bringing up those things
and speaking about them, I guess people may not understand
that PTSD you actually feel those emotions, You feel like
you did at the time that it happens. So it
doesn't matter whether it's a couple of years, a couple
of months, or a couple of decades afterwards, right.
Speaker 6 (21:33):
Yes, absolutely, absolutely, so thinking about it can you know,
we call that an internal trigger that can.
Speaker 7 (21:39):
Take you back to those feelings.
Speaker 6 (21:41):
But certainly being in a situation where somebody's asking you
about it can put you back in that place, or
even if there's dynamics going on that just remind you
of those experiences, and so you know that's the reason
for those independence support people being there is that we
can help people get through that process keeping their well
being as intact as possible.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
And I suppose Fano and friends can come to you
as well for advice if they have somebody close to
them who has experienced this or is going through something
like this.
Speaker 6 (22:11):
Absolutely, we welcome our friends and Fano coming to us
because you know, we're in people's lives for a short
period of time. Your friends and your family are around
your long term, so the better equipped that they are
to support survivors are the better.
Speaker 3 (22:27):
Thank you so much for joining us, Catherine.
Speaker 7 (22:29):
Thanks Chelsea.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
at enzadherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is
produced by Jane Yee and Richard Martin, who's also our editor.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
I'm Chelsea Daniels.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you
get your.
Speaker 3 (22:54):
Podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.
Speaker 7 (23:00):
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