What happens next if Te Pāti Māori triggers the waka jumping law?

For weeks now headlines have been peppered with Te Pāti Māori’s infighting.

The crescendo came when the party’s National Council opted to expel MPs Mariameno Kapa-Kingi and Tākuta Ferris from Parliament.

Both have called the move ‘unconstitutional’ - they’ll sit as independents in the Beehive for now.

But, what’s lead to this very public spat and what’s next for the party ahead Election 2026? Today on The Front Page, University of Auckland professor Jason Mika is with us to discuss.

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Host: Chelsea Daniels
Editor/Producer: Richard Martin
Producer: Jane Yee

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Kiota. I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page,
a daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. For
weeks now, headlines have been peppered with Tapati Maori's in fighting.
The crescendo came when the party's National Council opted to

(00:25):
expel MPs Maria Meno, Kapakingi and Takata Feris from parliament.
Both have called the move unconstitutional. They all said as
independence in the beehive for now. But what's led to
this very public spat and what's next for the party
ahead of election twenty twenty six. Today on the Front Page,

(00:47):
University of Auckland professor Jason Meeker is with us to discuss.
First off, Jason, let's take a look back. Can you
tell me how we got here?

Speaker 2 (01:00):
I guess it seems to be that there there is
certainly some disagreement, that some serious disagreement that's occurred within
the party, Marty, that has to do with people's behavior,
people's points of view or personality, differences in the way
in which people have conducted themselves. That has not been

(01:22):
to the satisfaction of the party.

Speaker 3 (01:24):
Marti.

Speaker 2 (01:25):
And it's rule book, it's Constitution and so you know,
the de Party Marty has gone through a process, took
on a mary process of having accordial and consulting with
constituents and members and communities about Okay, what are the
nature of the concerns and how best can we deal
with them? And they've receed the conclusion for this point

(01:48):
at this point at least anyway.

Speaker 1 (01:50):
Yes, So both MP's have called their expulsions unconstitutional and
are planning to challenge it. Do you reckon they've got
any grounds?

Speaker 2 (01:59):
We will see, because what I can, what I observe
is that the real muckle, the real essence of the
problem is not really clear and in terms of, uh,
you know, which part of the Constitution has been not
been complied with and adhered to and what kind of

(02:23):
evidences they're available to support that. You know that that's
really sort of an internal matter and process which the
Party of Marty have sort of followed through on.

Speaker 3 (02:36):
And so.

Speaker 2 (02:39):
The thing about rules is that they can be challenged.
You know, there's there's always the possibility that we can
go back and sort of say, well, yep, now we
can contest evidence, we can contest rules, and that's the
nature of constitution. So we'll certainly see what comes through
with how far they want to take it, you know,
whether it's not there's there's an internal process or an

(03:01):
external process.

Speaker 1 (03:02):
And the fact that the situation kind of does remain
a bit unclear, do you reckon that is a failing
of leadership or do you think that it's just just
that unclear?

Speaker 2 (03:13):
It's it's certainly just I mean, they followed the process
according to what the process ses they should do, which
is to come on Marti, processes of cording or warning
of of trying to get to the you know, the
knuck of the and so they followed that process, but
also followed what the two partsy Marty believes to be

(03:37):
the constitutional process that they adhere to as a as
a political party. And so I guess the difficulty is
that there's a there's a public sort of sharing of
what's going on, which is you know, social media, the
media and within around kitchen tables, around the countryside, we're

(03:58):
all talking about it. So there's that sort of public side,
but there's also that private side of what's going on
for these particular members. And also they're far no and
the processes of of of how these you know, these
discussions of a kid. There's that's the stuff that we
won't necessarily see.

Speaker 3 (04:18):
So there's there's.

Speaker 2 (04:19):
Both going on and so I mean from that point
of view, it's very you know, intriguing but also sort
of challenging and tough for us to sort of what's
what's going on there?

Speaker 1 (04:28):
Yeah, I mean that level of transparency. I can see
that they want to be transparent, but like you said,
there's obviously stuff happening behind closed doors. Do you reckon
it has helped or hindered them coming out and maybe
airing a little bit of the dirty laundry, but not
all of it.

Speaker 2 (04:46):
Well, it depends on which side of the sort of
the feature sort of sitting on there.

Speaker 3 (04:52):
If you if you're a.

Speaker 2 (04:53):
Person there who's been sort of ousted from the party
so to speak, then you know, has that helped them
in terms of you know, where they're situated at the
moment and in terms of to party Maori, it's prospects,
its position and it's it's status in parliament. You know,

(05:13):
we'll start to see the impact of what's played out
over the last few months over the next few months.

Speaker 1 (05:20):
Tell me about the walker jumping legislation and could it
in fact apply here.

Speaker 2 (05:26):
Yeah, I guess that's you know, that's a mechanism in
place to allow parties to ensure that there is representation
for parties who were voted into parliament by the voters.

Speaker 3 (05:39):
And so it's a really tricky.

Speaker 2 (05:42):
So the mechanism is available and and it'll be up
to to Party Mary to activate that that mechanism. But
the issue for me is we've got constituents who voted
in these members to represent them in parliament, and are
we saying we're actually you know, we're we're we're taking

(06:03):
away that that representation from those constituents through the through
this decision that's been made about about those those members.

Speaker 3 (06:15):
And so.

Speaker 2 (06:17):
You know, that's the difficulty of the worker jumping mechanism
is that, you know, is it for the Maori Party
to Party Mali to decide or who you know, you
know that that those those members are no longer going
to represent them in parliament, that's basically what they're decided.
And the walker jumping mechanism really takes that to the

(06:40):
full extent to saying well, no, we need new representation
and we need the people to be able to to
make that decision about who represents them in Parliament. So
they've separated out there lecture from the party and and
that's really the sort of major consideration.

Speaker 4 (07:06):
This decision was not taken lightly. Many hope the end
would be reconciliation. It could not be achieved. We acknowledge
the mummi our people have felt, and we think our
National Council for upholding our color and the best interests
of our movement throughout this internal matter should never have

(07:27):
played out in public. There's been an unnecessary distraction at
a dark time for our country as this government continues
its relentless attacks on our people.

Speaker 1 (07:40):
Is there anything stopping the pair of them just joining
up and creating another Maulti lad party in parliament.

Speaker 2 (07:48):
It depends on whether or not the waka jumping mechanism
is activated. So if it's not, then you know, I
guess then that they would be free to you to
form another political party to gathernize the sort of particular
interest and priorities in parliament.

Speaker 1 (08:09):
And what do you reckon the chances of that are happening?

Speaker 3 (08:12):
Well, who knows?

Speaker 2 (08:13):
They? You know, I mean, because if the parts in
Mary really sort of wants to ensure that the parts
in Marty representatives coming from those particular constituents that are
affected by the austinc then then it's really up to them.
So it's in there, you know, it's the equal And

(08:36):
in the meantime we have two new independent Mary and
Peace in Parliament and they as independence they're free to
sort of work out how they wish to organize themselves
in Parliament, either as a political party, a movement or
as independence.

Speaker 1 (08:55):
So the Walker jumping legislation not only covers Walker jumping
to another established party, but it could in fact being
you know, if you were to start a new party
for instance, it does apply there as well.

Speaker 2 (09:09):
Yeah, I mean I haven't taken a look at the
legislation for a while, but you know, that's that's something
for the Party Marty to work through.

Speaker 1 (09:17):
Do you reckon the expulsions, I thought, because they had
a few options on the table, right and expelling them,
do you reckon? It's kind of like a damned if
you do, damned if you don't situation. If they were
suspended for a couple of weeks, people would be asking
why didn't you expel them. Now they're expelled, people are
asking why didn't you look at the other two options,

(09:38):
you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (09:39):
Yeah, I'm sure they considered all the options and for
to Party Marty that that was the option that they
thought was going to be the right one for the
Party Marty. But certainly, you know, the voters will have
to say at some point about whether or not that
was the right call.

Speaker 1 (09:58):
Well, speaking of voting, we're not too far away from
election twenty twenty six. Do you reckon this saga? I
suppose has hurt to Batti Maori.

Speaker 3 (10:08):
Yeah, time will tell.

Speaker 2 (10:09):
I mean, you know, with Napiki men Nahiki, you know
the ups and downs of parliament. You know, it's really
it's really up to to Party Marty to solidify and
consolidate their position and to ensure that they remain an
effective voice in parliament for the al Mardi, for the

(10:30):
nation in respect of the issues that they care about,
and certainly for the independence you know, the new independent
Mary and Peace to do the same. And then it
really is down to the voters to make their equal What.

Speaker 1 (10:48):
Do you reckon, I'll give them the best shot at
galvanizing after this huge saga.

Speaker 2 (10:53):
I would say, really, when things get really tough and difficult,
there's no substitute for cordle for war, for for for
calling a who to talk things through?

Speaker 3 (11:07):
And I know that who have been held with the
which cheers.

Speaker 2 (11:13):
And and with others, with constituents, with feigner, with communities,
and I think that who you know is still needed
to to talk things through until there is some agreement
about what is the best way forward and how do
we move forward so cordial, you know, no substitute for
cordonal and war and who to work out our way forward?

Speaker 1 (11:36):
How do you reckon? This is reflected on Debiyarto with
Paka and t t.

Speaker 2 (11:41):
It's a tough day at the office for sure for
leaders of departy in MARII to you know, to to
basically negotiate both the private and the public, uh you know,
sort of interest and and and the the process that
they've had to manage them had to manage both sides

(12:04):
of that process. And so it's it's clearly been tough
for them as leaders. And they're not the only political
leaders to go through that sort of process. You know,
all of the political parties National Party, New Zealand First
and Act have been in tough situations themselves in the past,

(12:28):
involving you know, the loss of members and.

Speaker 3 (12:33):
Have fad to deal with it. So that is nature
of leadership in parliament.

Speaker 1 (12:38):
Yeah, spending an incredibly tumultuous time for to Party Mali,
especially after the support that you know, the country really
showed them in twenty twenty three and also some really
good poll results as well to Parti Mali. Do you
think that they will get back to the five percent
or above the five percent threshold before the next election.

Speaker 2 (12:58):
That's really the challenge facing the leadership right now is
really how to rebuild that confidence, that faith that the
constituents have shown the Party Maori in the last election.
Is really to focus on rebuilding that connection with what
voters saw in the Party Maori to have, you know,

(13:21):
to have that result come through.

Speaker 1 (13:23):
Is it disappointing that this kind of staff and this
saga and making the headlines does detract from the party's
main purpose and that's to bring forward Maori and voice
Malti concerns in parliament.

Speaker 2 (13:38):
Certainly does divert attention and energy to sorting out disagreements.
But it's really difficult to conduct business when you're when
you're really sort of deep in a sort of a disagreement.

Speaker 3 (13:55):
And I guess with.

Speaker 2 (13:57):
The expulsion of the two Money and Peace from the
party malis is that I guess the leadership we're hoping that,
you know, manners would be resolved, but as we're seeing, no,
they're not.

Speaker 3 (14:11):
They're sort of maybe even their hoting gup.

Speaker 1 (14:15):
What's next in the timeline of this When should we
see an ultimate conclusion?

Speaker 3 (14:21):
Do you think next election? Is my guess?

Speaker 1 (14:24):
Yeap, So it'd taken to then to just really really
see where the battle lines are drawn, I think so.

Speaker 2 (14:31):
I mean if if, if, if the two newly independent
MP's stay in Parliament is Independent Mpeace.

Speaker 3 (14:42):
There will be their time to work out or how
best the may.

Speaker 2 (14:46):
Sort of continue to be represented as for their constituents
in Parliament going forward, and similarly for the party Malia
is to work out, well, how can they reconnect with
con stituents from those affected regions and voters to sort
of reconnect really and reaffirm their ability to represent those

(15:13):
voters in those places at the same level. And it'll
be really, it'll be all on come the next selection.

Speaker 1 (15:21):
Thanks for joining us, Jason.

Speaker 3 (15:23):
Welcome Kelder.

Speaker 1 (15:27):
That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
at NSID Herald dot co dot nz. The Front Page
is produced by Jane Ye and Richard Martin, who was
also our editor. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front
Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and

(15:49):
tune in on Monday for another look behind the headlines.