September 15, 2024 • 39 mins
With rising healthcare costs and months-long wait lists to see a psychiatrist, an increasing number of people are self-diagnosing with ADHD and other learning disorders.
Dougal Sutherland joins Tim Beveridge on The Weekend Collective to discuss this and more.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Becomes a little song.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
And welcome back. Actually, I was waiting for the chorus
that don't worry, be happy anyway, Um you know the
song instantly. I'm Tim Beveridge. Welcome back to the Weekend Collective.
This is the Health Hub. By the way, if you
missed any of our politics how you can go and
check out our podcast. Just go to iHeartRadio look for
the Weekend Collective. But right now as I sat time
for the Health Hup, we want your calls. I wait
(01:00):
one hundred eighty ten eighty in text on nine two
nine too. And my guest is clinical psychologist and his
name is Google Sutherland. Google. There you go, good mate,
how are you doing? You've I love your background where
you're coming to us on zoom there and your lovely
little umbrella in the background, which is a subtle hint
to the name of the organization.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
Yes, it's a It's a great marketing tour, isn't it.
It's one of those one of those words that lends
itself very well to some sort of marketing. We should
do a some sort of promo with blunt umbrellas I
think if they could give us some they gave us
some free umbrellas, we'd promote the amandus at the same time.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
I think for a free umbreller goodness.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
Hey, the first question, Look, we're going to touch on
this whole self diagnosing of your ADHD and all that,
but I'm keen to just have a quick chat about it.
Just when we were having a meeting for the show
to discuss what topics we'd we have a look at,
and I was thinking about the nature of just the
way people feel about life. And there are some people
(02:02):
who may be, you know, the eor type of mentality,
all everything's dooming, gloom all the time, and ah, you
know that song. I thought of that song, Don't Worry,
Be Happy, and I was wondering if there is actually
something in that because over the course of you know, life,
you hear people saying that happiness is a choice. And
I guess I feel that when I say that, it
(02:23):
sounds outrageous because you're in danger of not understanding when
people have serious mental illness that they need to assistance
and help with. But is there something about the choices
we make around the way we view life that you
know in a way you can have a mindset change. Well,
(02:46):
putting aside clinical depression and really serious stuff, can we
choose to be happier? There we go, I spat it
out in the end of night.
Speaker 4 (02:53):
We got there. Yeah, look to there is a reasonably
good amount of evidence that suggests that how you think
about the world and how you think about other people
and yourself in it and really help with adjusting your mood.
So if you see everybody as threatening and as life
as a bit terrible and down, it often feels that way.
(03:18):
And even with even with clinical depression, there's you know,
many people have heard of cognitive behavioral therapy, and that's
that's a known effective treatment for depression. And one of
the aspects of that is helping people uncover the traps
that they fall into when they get depressed, and they
and help them identify different ways of looking at the world.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
If that makes you that does sound like a really
clinical way of saying, don't worry, be happy, Yeah it doesn't.
Speaker 4 (03:49):
It nothing like a psychologist to say in about one
hundred words about what normal people could say in about ten.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
We should we should read draft the lyrics for that
song into clinical psychologists speak. I just forgot, but that
might not be such a hit.
Speaker 5 (04:04):
Yeah, there you go.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
But there's I guess that's the thing when people are
constantly I mean people are often will We all know
people have got the slightly ere approach to things like
how things. And I jokingly so when people say how am,
I say our fear to middling? But I just say
that because I'm I think it's slightly amusing way to
put it. But yeah, so what advice would you have
(04:29):
for people if they're thinking, you know what, I God,
I've been a bit lum lately. I need to do
something about it, apart from things like go for a walk,
take a deep breath of yeah whatever.
Speaker 4 (04:39):
Yeah, yeah, Look, I always find it really helpful to
actually write down what's going on in your head or
you know, in these days you could transcribe it or
speak it into something, but actually get it out of
your head and put it on paper. And we know
that sometimes our brain does sort of make a few
(05:01):
sort of tricks and traps in our thinking, you know,
tricks us into thinking that everything you know it's going
to be catastrophic, Oh my god, this is going to
go terribly or something. And actually when we put it
down on paper and sort of have a look at
it at a bit more. At a distance, we can
kind of pick apart that argument a little bit, but
it takes some effort and takes some motivation. You've got
(05:22):
to kind of want to do it. But yeah, that's
my first tip is actually get it out of your head,
write it down.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
Yeah, because I think that one of the things you
said there reminded me of if you do constantly have
the more you practice having a negative reaction to something,
then it becomes something that becomes more triggered automatically almost,
So you're you've really got to try and avoid that
negative approach to things. I guess, gosh, I'm trying to
tiptoe around and say the right thing so I don't
(05:50):
sound like I'm being sensitive to people who've got real
problems when it comes to mental things. But you know,
any behavior that you practice is going to become one
that is easily brought into in a way. So if
you are instantly wanting to see the negative and something,
eventually that's going to be the way you see everything.
Speaker 4 (06:07):
The word Yeah, there's somebody once said to me, words
create worlds, you know, So if you're constantly speaking negatively
about everything around you, then don't be surprised if that
flows through and how you feel about life and how
you approach life. And that's true even when people are depressed.
You know, cognand behavior therapy is are a really good treatment.
And I think it's too simplistic to say I don't worry,
(06:31):
be happy. Yeah, we're right, Yeah, and I think that
can be a bit dismissive of people. But the kind
of in a sense that the underlying that sound along principle. Right,
if you approach thinking about the world in a different way,
you might get a different result.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
Actually, we'd love to hear your thoughts about this. If
you've battled with just the way with sinking into a
world of negativity, it might be one way of putting it.
Actually that thing you said Google about writing it down.
It's a bit like when you're hacked off with someone.
I've often said to people, it's like, tell you right
to that person, but do not send it. Yeah, and
(07:10):
write down what you're really hacked off about, and then
have a look at it two days later, And invariably
I think people go, oh, yeah, I felt, in fact
what actually happens when you do write that down. So
you're annoyed with something and you write a letter and
then you sit on it for a couple of days.
What is that process of actually putting those thoughts into
(07:31):
writing do well?
Speaker 4 (07:32):
I think what it does it allows us to actually
stop our brain from taking shortcuts. So our brain will
take shortcuts to basically reinforce the position that we hold.
So if we're really annoyed at something, you know, our
brain distincts in a way that keeps that oh, of
course of every right to be. So writing it down
puts it. It puts a little bit of distance between
(07:54):
you and the thought, and you can kind of physically
read it as if you weren't quite so attached to it.
So arguably it cuts out some of that emotional attachment
to it, and you read it perhaps as if somebody
else had written it and go oh, I wouldn't have
said that. That doesn't And often when people do it,
they go, oh, actually it doesn't seem such quite a
big deal, as I hadn't made it up to be
(08:16):
in my head. And so I think it helps just
getting it down, getting some distance between you and the emotion.
Probably the waiting helps as well. You probably during that period,
if we think about emotions going in waves, you've probably
allowed that wave of anger just to subside a little
bit and you can engage the front part of your brain,
the clever part of your brain a bit more to go.
(08:36):
Or actually, now that I think of that, yeah, I
don't think I'll act quite so impulsively. I think I've
got a different take on it. I'm not just acting
out of pure emotion. I've got some thought in there too,
because I think.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
One of the classic examples when people always battle with
feeling good about life would be so the end of
a romantic relationship or something, a breakup of any important relationship,
and the sort of heartache that goes with this, and
those I mean, I would imagine that in many respects,
those are the moments where where there is you've got
(09:09):
to eleit yourself, grieve and wallow for a bit. Yes,
but there comes a point where you also have to
sort of snap out of it. And I mean it's
never I don't know if it's ever helpful to say
to someone hate snap out of it.
Speaker 4 (09:20):
Probably not, No, not, usually it doesn't. It doesn't usually
have much of an effect apart from people get angry
at you. But no, you're right, I mean, I think,
but that's the thing, right, there's got to be time
to allow that emotion to go through, like after a breakup,
and think about the wave of emotion that you experience,
that grief and that loss and that sadness, and then
you come down the other side. And when you come
(09:41):
down the other side and you've got a bit less
emotional about it, you're at the front party of brain
lights up a bit and you can think a bit more.
Oh yeah, actually, and it's not going to be all
of a sudden, but you might start kind of realizing, actually,
this happens to a lot of people. It's happened to
me before I've you know, this isn't the first my
first rodeo, you know. So you start to get a
(10:02):
little bit of perspective just as that. But it's not
about blocking out the emotion. I think it's about having both.
And I think often people sort of try to run
away from negative emotions. Oh I don't want to feel that.
I'll try to think happier.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
It's like it's both.
Speaker 4 (10:15):
You can feel the emotion and think differently about it
later on.
Speaker 3 (10:20):
What would be the signs that you're wallowing, and I mean,
is it a grieving process? I guess it's a form
of grief. But what would be the signs that you're
wallowing is going too far with it? Be something that
you'd pick up yourself. What would be something where a
friend would notice it and go, hey, look, yeah.
Speaker 4 (10:36):
I think often other people around you notice it, and
there's a little bit of a balance there, right, because
we might we get impatient with other people.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
Come on, can't.
Speaker 4 (10:45):
Snap out of it. I'm sick of you, are greeted.
It's like, well, I'm not. Well, I'm sick of it too.
But you think, but often people will say things like
I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired. You know,
I'm over it and I want to get it. I
want I don't want to feel like this anymore. I
recognize that's something bad has happened, and I'm not trying
(11:06):
to raise that, but I actually I don't want to
feel like this anymore. But I'm just not quite sure
what to do.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
What are the traps that people fall into that make
it harder to get out of that? Look?
Speaker 4 (11:17):
I think I think probably getting tied up in your
own head and being socially isolated, so not talking to
other people about it, so you can't you don't get
that that that objective from other people. You don't get
empathy from other people. And another big one is you know,
goes along with sort of isolation as you as often
people's energy levels decrease and they become couch potatoes and
(11:39):
like oh no. And then and you know, your behavior,
your brain follows your behavior a bit in that way.
You feel, you act depressed, and your brain, you think,
your thoughts then follow on and feel a bit down
as well because you're not very active. And a really
effective treatment when people are feeling not very happy is
actually to get them out, to get them active, to
(12:01):
get them moving, to get them doing actually doing things.
And sometimes the fee follow rather than vice versa.
Speaker 3 (12:07):
Because actually that can be one of the more irritating things.
If you've got one of those friends it's like, come on,
we're going for a walk. Come on, It's like I
don't want to. It's like, yes, come on, let's get
out and get some fresh airs. Like a bugger off.
You should actually let that person win.
Speaker 4 (12:19):
You probably should, Yeah, don't wait to want to do
that because if you if you wait for the motivation
to do it, you might be waiting a long time.
Just do it, Just do the It's a bit like
the Nike Just do it. Just get out there. You know,
theoretically it's kind to be good for you. I don't
feel like it, No neither do I, but we know
it'll be helpful.
Speaker 3 (12:35):
I'll tell you what. Here you are, you're looking for
an alignment with blunt umbrellas. Now you're calling out to
Nike for a free pair of shoes with that.
Speaker 4 (12:43):
Here we go, Yeah, here we come on. I hope
you're listening.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
Okay, Hey, look, we'd like to hear from you if
you have, if just on the tips and tricks you've
got to you've developed maybe over your life to deal
with moments where you actually do sl slip into the
drums a bit because I started it in a I
don't mean it in a trivial way, but I think
there is something about it. Choice Sometimes when you just
you have a choice whether you really want to sink
(13:09):
into the negative side of something that's happened to you
or whether you can brush it off. And some people,
you notice are better at sort of dealing with that stuff.
What are the techniques that you have learned that have
helped you deal with some with bad news and disappointment?
And I don't mean ah, you just pretend it hasn't happened,
because I think that's called denial, and and Google would
probably have something to say about that. We want to
(13:30):
take your calls on it. Don't worry be happy? Is
it that simple? Eight hundred and eighty ten eighty text
nine two nine two. If you've got anything you want
to talk about with us, give us a call. We'd
love to hear from your twenty it's twenty past four
news talks. He'd b Yes, we're talking about don't worry?
Be happy? Is it that simple? When you're feeling a
bit down in the dump, so you get into a
pattern of negative thinking. Actually, I guess that's the thing.
(13:52):
It's you can fall into cycles of all sorts of behaviors,
can't you? Google Southern from an umbrella group? Now, what's
your website again? Google? Before we go umbrella dot org
dot enz There we go umbrella dot org dot z z.
And if you ever have pleasure of the zoom with Google,
he's got a massive umbrella behind him to remind you
just in case. But yeah, patterns and cycles of thinking
(14:14):
of thought. I guess that's what you want to avoid,
isn't it.
Speaker 4 (14:17):
Well, I think I think we're always as humans inclined
to fall into patterns and habits. So I don't think
there's anything wrong with the habit. I think it's recognizing
that the habit that you're in a habit and choosing
whether that's the habits that you want to be in.
If that makes sense.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
What about the appreciation? One of the most irritating things
I think people can do. If you're feeling a bit
down and you're annoyed with your lot, and someone can say, well,
hang on to mete, You've got you know, you've got
a beautiful house, you've got you drive, a lovely cave,
you've got beautiful family, et cetera. Cheer up. But there
is something to that. It's just irritating advice to get.
Speaker 4 (14:55):
Yeah, it's irritating advice to get in that moment, because
in that moment, what you probably are looking for is
some empathy, some understanding from your friend. It says, ah, yeah,
things are really tough for you at the moment, and
I really feel for you, and clearly you're struggling, and
that's horrible for anybody. So when somebody's in the peak
of that moment of that problem, what they want and
(15:15):
what they need from other people is empathy and understanding.
Once that emotion has sort of died down a bit,
that's when they might be able to engage the problem
solving part of their brain and go, ah, man, actually,
now that ah Tim was right, Maybe my life isn't
quite as bad as I thought it was. I do
have some good things, and it can be useful to
(15:36):
compare your life to other people's who have it way
worse than you.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
Although also I think sometimes I remember having this conversation
with someone recently was saying that, oh, look, I shouldn't
really be upset. I know people have got a lot
tougher than I have, or whatever, and I just said
to them, look, you're feeling bad. If you're feeling bad,
you're feeling bad. You should never apologize for that. The
fact that you've got, you know, things that you can
be grateful for, that's fine, but don't short change yourself
(16:01):
on the validity of your own feelings.
Speaker 4 (16:05):
Yeah, yeah, I completely agree. Look, I think it's both.
So you're trying to you need the validation for what
you're feeling. As you say, whatever you're feeling is what
you're feeling, and that's fine. And at the same time,
there might be well, later on, there might be a
time where you go, maybe I don't want to keep
feeling like this, and are there ways that I can
think about the world differently that might lead me to
(16:26):
feel differently without invalidating what I was feeling before, And
that might it might actually be useful at that stage
to think about what I've gotten, what the world has
given me. And actually, now that I'm not in the
bits of despair, I'm just out of that a little bit.
I'm at the edge of the pit. I'm kind of
going I actually no, it's I've actually got a few
things going on. It's okay, But don't look for a
(16:47):
magical cure. Like it's not like you think that once
and suddenly go, oh, I'm just amazing now. It's you know,
if we get into habits, we'll get into a habit
of thinking more positively, and over time that will lead
to a change in our mood. It won't be dramatic,
it won't be instantaneous.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
There's a text here sort of I think, which reflects
sort of what we've been saying. Somebody says, I look
for I looked for all the good things in my
life they had to offer when I was depressed after
a marriage breakdown. Have two mortgage free houses, three teenagers
who are on the right path with life and with
me being a migrant, have the privilege to live in
this beautiful country. And I think that's something that you
(17:25):
would have to be ready though, And you're not going
to be jumping into that thought straight away when you feel.
Speaker 4 (17:29):
Yeah, that's right. You have to be ready. And often
when somebody else says that, we dismiss it because when
we're talking about it somebody else, we want them to
understand and support us, not to tell us what we're
thinking is wrong. And I can imagine the process that
person that wrote the text. I can imagine that was
a long process. They didn't sort of wake up one
morning go oh well, I've got the world. It's all
(17:50):
right over that now and I feeling much better. That'll
have taken time, and I imagine that text is a
synthesis of what they did over a period of weeks
or months or even years.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
Another one says tim I think that technology has a
lot to blame for many people's state of mind because
it results in anti socialism, which has been proven to
shrink and prematurely age the brain. I don't know the
truth of that, but I would have thought you had
put down the phone and get out at door and
breathing some fresh air.
Speaker 4 (18:18):
It's interesting because there's been that debate recently about banning
social media for under sixteen year olds, and it's like, yeah,
that there's some validity in that, but we also know
that social media, the social part of it is it
can be helpful for teenager at that times, especially if
you feel, you know, if you live way up in
(18:39):
the what's by yourself and you feel different from everybody
else around you, connecting with other people online can be
quite helpful. So I think it's I think it's not
seeing social media or devices is all good.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
That sounds like an argument for saying, yes, get on
the WhatsApp and be in touch with your friends, But
I would say keep off the Instagram because everyone's life
on Instagram is.
Speaker 4 (19:02):
Perfectly yeah that you know what I mean. Sides to
it on there, I think educating and helping supporting young
people to figure out how to use social media well
as really as really useful. And if we use it
as a tool to connect and support other social relationships,
that's great. But as you say, not to not to
raise sort of envy and and and desire about God.
(19:26):
I wish I had that, because.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
I think I think that's the reason I generally loathe
social media when it comes to thinking about the impact
it might have on my kids or not. Because anyway, hey, look,
let's take some calls Tom.
Speaker 4 (19:39):
High, good afternoon, Tim.
Speaker 6 (19:45):
Do it all right, thank you? But so look, just
like say, someone quickly combined the question with it as
I like, I might have to go to you later.
I made a claim after seventy years to State Insurance.
They there and I mentioned my firearms, which I thought
had been sure all that time. Holy hell, he's got guns,
(20:09):
and an assessor who was going to come called the police.
They came that night, spent four hours boring holes in
my gun safe, and took my safe away. The state
insurance have made a decision on my mental state. Oh,
even though I didn't make any special claims. But I'm
(20:32):
on a downer because my very special lady died a
while back, and I'm not supposed to be on an
upper with that. Am I that the state insurance has
done your job Google and the police have exacerbated it postulated.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
Me did you have a gun license for.
Speaker 6 (20:52):
At this house? For sixty three years? With the police,
I was secretary the Sporting Shooters Association for twelve years.
They know me, the police, but the authority down a
new primo.
Speaker 3 (21:05):
Call on mental healthy that seems a strange one that
does seem slightly tangential, but it's doogal.
Speaker 4 (21:12):
Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's if I'm picking this up
right time, it sounds like State insurance have said you
might be feeling down and therefore we're a bit questionable
about you having a gun license. If that's the connection
I'm picking up, then yeah that I'm not quite sure
how insurance does these things, but you'd hope that they
would at least talk to you about it first.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
But yeah, anyway, thanks for cool time. Sorry, I'm not
sure we're in a position that does sound like of
quite a detailed and convoluted case there, but thanks for that. Now,
how on a second, tell you what I also want
to discuss that question around people. It seems to be
the latest trend everyone's diagnosing themselves with ADHD, and they're
(21:57):
doing their own online testing Google. It's almost it's very popular.
And in fact, I I don't think I know anyone
who doesn't think, oh I've got I've got a little
bit of ADHD. Anyone's diagnosed themselves. It is. It is
the sort of thing. It's the thing, it's the it's
the topic, isn't it.
Speaker 4 (22:17):
Yes, indeed, it's it's the diagnosis of the day, that's yes.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
No.
Speaker 4 (22:21):
I like the use of the of the French termsure.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
The diagnosis toure.
Speaker 4 (22:27):
Diagnosis to sure. Hey, Look, what I would say is
there is no test for ADHD. So if you have done,
if you think you've done a test and it's definitive,
then you're mistaken. There is no one test for ADHD.
Many of us identify with some of the symptoms of
ADHD because they're on a normal kind of tangent not
(22:49):
tangent continuum. There's no test, so all it's going to
do is say, hey, yeah, you might be it might
be worth getting an assessment.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
Actually, when people say I'm on the spectrum, yep, uh,
I guess technically we're all on the spectrum. It's just
which end are you on or are you right in
the middle.
Speaker 4 (23:09):
That's right, And I think that's helpful. And when we
do use that term spectrum because it says, actually, we're
all kind of in here somewhere, but because back in
the day, they didn't used to be either you had
something or you didn't. Yeah, if that made sense. But
I think talking about there being a spectrum is much
more helpful because it acknowledges that for most mental health conditions,
(23:32):
we all have little bits of it from times.
Speaker 3 (23:35):
Actually, I think you've probably differentiated between the difference between
mental health and physical health because, as you say, everyone's
kind of got this in because the mental health is
so whereas you can't really kind of have syphilis.
Speaker 4 (23:50):
That's an interesting choice that you've used there. But no,
I agree.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
Actually, I'll be honest, I thought that was slightly more
comical than saying some really's other serious disease it wasn't curable.
Speaker 4 (24:03):
It's like, well, you can't have a broken leg. You can't.
You can't be kind of pregnant. Oh, we're all on
the pregnancy continuum. No I'm not. I'm free. I'm free pregnant.
Speaker 3 (24:15):
I guess the only thing with regard to physical illness,
is you might have a mild case of whatever it is.
Speaker 4 (24:21):
Yeah, truth, right, yeah, true, But there are some things
physically you know, you either have OVID or you don't.
It's so mental health is not like that. So it's
for almost all mental health problems, it's a continuum and
we can relate to them somehow. I'm sometimes a bit
(24:42):
impulsive or a bit inattentive, and those are some of
the symptoms of ADHD. Do I have them? And that's
one of the complications of trying to make the diagnosis,
I think is which is behind some.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
Of us what actually, let's let's get into it, because
it's so easy to say because someone's got their own
idea what ADHD is, because we've heard or someone's child
has got ADHD is on the spectrum of this or
that or some of some growing up as and we've
all formed an opinion on what it is, and we
make it up for ourselves. Oh, this is they're quite
full on on that, or they've got quite a mild case.
Speaker 4 (25:12):
What is a d HD ADHD attention deficit hyperactivity disorder,
And it's got three core symptoms, so impulsiveness, so doing
things without thinking, and that could be saying things that
it could be acting without thinking and going, oh my god,
what I do that for? So impulsiveness, an attention or
(25:33):
difficulty concentrating, can't keep my mind on things, I get
distracted easily. And hyperactivity, so the feeling of being restless,
keyed up on edge all the time, having high levels
of energy. Now there are but yeah, so you can
(25:54):
have that. They tend to fall into two groups. There's
a there's an impulsive sorry, an inattentive group, so they
tend to have more of the inattention I can't focus
sort of symptoms. There's a hyperactive impulsive type, which is
more the hyperactivity, always on the go, up and down
all the time. And then there's a combined group who
(26:16):
have all markets of all three of those groups of symptoms.
Most people have the combined type, and it's arguably that
it's underdiagnosed the inattentive because we kind of overlook those
people because they are But sorry, it's my dog's going
nuts in the background.
Speaker 3 (26:31):
I didn't hear a thing. Actually, I just heard you
stop talking. It's a very good microphone you've got there. Yeah,
still going So what about you said there was no
test for it, So how is it diagnosed?
Speaker 4 (26:47):
So there are some question years. So again this is
where it differs from a physical health diagnosis. Right, if
you've got we'll go back to your example, Tim, for
some reason of syphilis, you can go get a blood
test and that I think, I think this is what
you can do. I think you can go get a
blood test and that if you get the right test,
it will show whether you have it or not ADHD.
(27:07):
There is no such tests. And that's the same for
almost every mental health problem that I can think of.
There is no single test that will say you've definitively
got it or you haven't. There are questionnaires that you
can answer, there are some neuropsychological assessments that can say hey, yeah,
you have lower levels of attention than other people. But
(27:28):
it's a case of talking to people establishing a history.
That's because the current thinking is that we would be
born with it or develop it very early on in life.
You don't get it as an adult at least that's
the that's the accepted thinking at the moment. So you're
looking for a long history of having it since childhood.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
Okay, because what about them? And it's also it's I'm
not sure if it's viewed as having the stigma that
it might initially have had. In fact, I almost get
the sense that some people almost like I've got ADHD. Yeah,
it's like it's a superpower. I mean, I guess the
question is when when is it a problem?
Speaker 4 (28:05):
I guess if it's yeah, look that that's a really
important part of any mental health diagnosis. It's got to
be causing a problem. Like, if it's not causing you
a problem, then it's not really in quotes, a disorder
is it, Because it's just it's just part of who
you are. And if it's not a problem, is not
a problem until it's causing a problem. So it has
to be causing a problem.
Speaker 3 (28:26):
You know.
Speaker 4 (28:27):
I've met a number of journos, so that's my interest here.
Who said, you know what, I don't think I've got ADHD.
But working in media really helps me because actually we've
got tight deadlines which I have to meet. I can't
not meet them, and the topic changes about every two days,
so I don't have to keep my concentration or attention
on one thing for very long, and I do get
really excited and interested in it. So in that way
(28:49):
is it almost can be a superpower, but it's just
a superpowers. The flip side that can sometimes be right, and.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
Even the impulsiveness side of things, or the can up
to a point I think, be the reason that you
do something that's maybe someone who is a bit more
cautious wouldn't, because you like, yes, just do this, and
all of a sudden, as I was thinking of actually
a classic not a classic example, but I think of
someone who was just ridiculously talented everything at everything, And
(29:20):
we have to go and back in history, but I'm
thinking I'd love to know if Leonardo da Vinci had
sat down with a clinical psychologist whether he would have
found he was just he was banging on all level.
Speaker 4 (29:31):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'd be fascinating to meet a lot
of those Winston Churchill I remember hearing, I don't know
if this is true or not, that he used to
sleep about three hours a night and consume a bottle
of brandy every night.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
He ran incredible amounts and it was.
Speaker 4 (29:44):
Like man, but so this was so I'd love to
meet some of these historical characters and see, you know,
see run the clinical psychology measuring tape over them and
see how they see how they measured up.
Speaker 3 (29:57):
Look, if you'd like to discuss any of this, and
you have any questions around ADHD as well. We started
the show talking about don't worry, be happy from the
point of view of asking iver's happiness a simpler choice
than we make it, but also with having a chat
about ADHD because everyone said not everyone, I'm generalizing. Sorry,
my apologies. It is in the media a lot about
(30:19):
people going, oh, you've done this test online, I've got ADHD.
You'll see it on social media. Oh apparently I've got ADHD.
Blah blah blah blah blah. But we've got guess what,
We've got to Google Sutherland here and he knows a
lot more about it than you and I, So if
you've got any questions, he's not going to diagnose you,
by the way, we don't do that on a talk
back show. Do any any interesting questions around that sort
of side of things and give us a call. We'd
love to hear from you. It's eighteen minutes to five
(30:42):
news talks. He'd be yes, Welcome back to the Weekend Collective.
Let's get into the course talking about ADHD and Chloe.
Speaker 5 (30:49):
Hello, Hi, ah, good Thanks so basically, I just got
a question. So I'm by polar type one. But my
cousin who does display quite a lot of similar signs
to me as being diagnosed with or apparently diagnosed with ADHD.
(31:12):
And what I've noticed is that the medication that they
prescribed to him has definitely not helped the situation. If anything,
it's made it worse. And there's also another person in
my life that has gone through a similar thing, and
I've also noticed that the medication prescribed to them has
made it way worse. But they're completely convinced that you know,
(31:32):
that's what the problem is, and they're kind of going
down the dark hole, which experience can, as you're probably
quite well aware of it, can end in something quite drastic.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (31:46):
Yeah, look, it's a really good point. There is a
high I mean, there's some overlap at least between some
of the symptoms bipolar and ADHD. And my basic piece
of advice would be, if you'll medical if somebody's medication
isn't working and is making them worse, then I'd be
going back to the person I prescribe it and saying, hey,
look this is not this is not helping. I'm getting worse.
(32:08):
It possibly is useful for that person to say, hey,
I've also got a relative who's got bipolar disorder. That
might be a useful piece of information for the GP
or the psychiatrist who's prescribing to.
Speaker 3 (32:19):
Know, actually some people do Some people sort of just
get a prescription, they take it and they go. Then
they notice it's not working very well, but they just
keep taking it, as opposed to going, actually, I'm going
to better go back to my doctrine and say I'm
not liking this at all.
Speaker 4 (32:31):
Yeah, sometimes people take meds and it doesn't do much.
But I think definitely when it's when a medication is
making you worse than that would be definitely a time
i'd be going back to the personal prescribe and say, hey,
it's not doesn't seem to seems to be making things
even worse.
Speaker 3 (32:47):
Not better. Okay, thank you, Chloe, Mary Hello, Hello, Hi.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
I was.
Speaker 5 (32:56):
Not with the sect and ADHD.
Speaker 6 (33:01):
When I.
Speaker 5 (33:02):
When I started doing some study.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
And I have found out that.
Speaker 6 (33:10):
My children's father has been so ADHD.
Speaker 4 (33:15):
No, that tends to be a hereditary thing that comes
down the line.
Speaker 3 (33:19):
Oh yeah, okay, absolutely it does.
Speaker 4 (33:24):
There's and it doesn't mean it's a bit like having
blue eyes or red hair or something. You know that
it's not it's not an immediate Oh my parents had this,
so I will definitely have it. But I'm more at
risk or have a greater chance of having ADHD if
a relative has ADHD, especially if it's a parent. So yep,
there is some genetic basis to it. But as I said,
(33:46):
it's not it's not quite one one, but definitely an
increased risk.
Speaker 3 (33:49):
Probably actually a lot of people would have a form
of ADHD. As he said, we're all on the spectrum.
But when would you need to see someone and maybe
receive I don't know, medication for it, which sounds pretty
full on.
Speaker 4 (34:03):
Yeah, look again, if you go back said a shoe
of when is it a problem? Is it causing a
problem in my life? And that it might be a
if you're at school, you're probably not listening to this,
But if you are a school at ak it could
be interfering with his studies. But often at work, if
it's causing a real issue for you at work, if
you're really disorganized, you don't get things done on time,
and this has been a patent for you for a
(34:23):
long while, that might be a time to actually go
and see psychologist and see about getting a good assessment
for it.
Speaker 3 (34:31):
Okay, all right, we'll be back in just a moment.
We'll take a break. It is eleven and a half
minutes to five news Talks. He'd be welcome back to
the Weekend Collective. This is a health harbum, Tim Beverage.
My guest is Google Sutherland from the Umbrella group Umbrella
dot org dot NZ. If you want to check out
the work that Google does with his team, and we're
talking about ADHD among other things.
Speaker 7 (34:51):
Steve, Hello, Yeah, good day, How are you going good?
Speaker 3 (34:53):
Thanks?
Speaker 7 (34:55):
I've got a son who has been diagnosed. When he
was a young fella cams diagnosed him with Aspergers and ADHD.
Now that he's working, he is really I mean, he
struggled at school, but now that he's working, he's really
struggling to concentrate on what he has to do. His
(35:18):
mind just flicks from one thing to another. The hoops
he is having to jump through to try and get
some medication for this is unbelievable.
Speaker 4 (35:29):
Yeah, it's a real it's a real issue that at
the moment, isn't it. It's because only a psychiatrist can
start that medication or a pediatrician, and psychiatrists are scarce
of Hen's teeth, so you can't just go to a
GP and get it started. It has to go to
a specialist. And I know that there is the government
(35:49):
is looking at this at the moment. There's a cross
party mental health group across all the major political parties
looking to see if they can free this up because
it's a that's an experienced heaps of people are having
and it's a real barrier to getting people good treatment.
Speaker 7 (36:02):
Sadly, but even when you're diagnosed every two months, you've
got to go back and jump through the hoops again.
Speaker 4 (36:09):
Jump through the hoops again. Yeah, it's all about it
being a restricted medication and and they're looking at whether
they can looten that up. But it is it's a
real hassle I know, and I know lots of people
like that. So hopefully it gets better in the in
the in the not too distant future. I know that
the government's certainly working on it.
Speaker 3 (36:29):
Yeah, thanks Steve, Yeah, thanks for you. Cool. Actually, there
was something on the news. I think they were speaking
with a young woman who was being and who might
have done a piece for the news, and she was saying, look,
you know, I know myself, I've got this condition and
I shouldn't have to go off to the psychiatrist every
couple of months. Or I think I'm remembering the right case.
(36:50):
But what do you think they're going to do. Do you
think they're going to maybe allow other mental health professionals
to actually prescribe it at various intervals or what?
Speaker 4 (36:59):
Yeah, look, and I'm not in on these conversations, but
from what I've read and seen that they are looking at,
is there a way to give gps some extra training
that will then allow them to start prescribing it rather
than having to go through a psychiatrist. And it's all
about the medicines being a needing a special authority, which
is a special class of medications because they have a
(37:22):
street value and they can be used, they can be abused,
not like penicillin week. So that's why there's the concern.
But it's not working. I think everybody would agree at
the moment.
Speaker 3 (37:33):
What about the role of clinical psychologists and things. Would
you want to have that ability or are you saying
no things?
Speaker 4 (37:38):
Oh look, it's interesting that that came up as a
topic a few years ago. Maybe a decade ago, and
it really split the profession. So people often say, what's
the difference between a psychologist and a psychiatrist. Well, one
of the big differences is psychologists can't prescribe medication. We
don't have that medical training. There was a move to
give that some psychologists and the states have that ability,
(38:01):
but it really split the profession. Some people wanted it
and some people didn't. Well, I can.
Speaker 3 (38:05):
Imagine why you wouldn't because it's a whole different cup
of tea, because you've got the physiological side effects of metal.
You know, it's not just about the mental wellbeing, and
there's physical effects of medications and the physiological complications and
all that sort of stuff. But if you just look
on look at the possible complications from taking paracetamol, you'd
never touch the stuff because any per you look at,
(38:27):
here's possible complications. I don't think you did. My head on.
Speaker 4 (38:30):
That was one of the strong arguments against it was
just like, actually, clinical sites don't have that background training
in biology and chemistry. You'd have to do some extra training.
It's not on the table anymore. More likely would be
people like GPS or nurse practitioners being able to do that,
they've got more of that medical background.
Speaker 3 (38:52):
I guess. Actually you wonder if there's a role with
clinical psychologists where you can make a recommendation this person
is we've diagnosed, and this is that they would be
a candidate for it over to you on the physiological.
Speaker 4 (39:02):
Side, and sometimes it works in practice like that. But yeah,
I think that'd be a good pathway forward.
Speaker 3 (39:07):
Yeah, excellent. Hey, thank you so much today for joining
us Google, and we acknowledge it was short notice given
as pleasure.
Speaker 4 (39:14):
As always, I was just sitting at home, not just twiddling.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
My thumbs, reminding your own business, your own business.
Speaker 4 (39:20):
I'm not always happy to always always enjoyed. Came along
with you talking about it.
Speaker 3 (39:24):
Thanks very much. We'll be back shortly with Smart Money.
Speaker 1 (39:27):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to news
talks it'd be weekends from three pm, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Becomes a little song.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
And welcome back. Actually, I was waiting for the chorus
that don't worry, be happy anyway, Um you know the
song instantly. I'm Tim Beveridge. Welcome back to the Weekend Collective.
This is the Health Hub. By the way, if you
missed any of our politics how you can go and
check out our podcast. Just go to iHeartRadio look for
the Weekend Collective. But right now as I sat time
for the Health Hup, we want your calls. I wait
(01:00):
one hundred eighty ten eighty in text on nine two
nine too. And my guest is clinical psychologist and his
name is Google Sutherland. Google. There you go, good mate,
how are you doing? You've I love your background where
you're coming to us on zoom there and your lovely
little umbrella in the background, which is a subtle hint
to the name of the organization.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
Yes, it's a It's a great marketing tour, isn't it.
It's one of those one of those words that lends
itself very well to some sort of marketing. We should
do a some sort of promo with blunt umbrellas I
think if they could give us some they gave us
some free umbrellas, we'd promote the amandus at the same time.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
I think for a free umbreller goodness.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
Hey, the first question, Look, we're going to touch on
this whole self diagnosing of your ADHD and all that,
but I'm keen to just have a quick chat about it.
Just when we were having a meeting for the show
to discuss what topics we'd we have a look at,
and I was thinking about the nature of just the
way people feel about life. And there are some people
(02:02):
who may be, you know, the eor type of mentality,
all everything's dooming, gloom all the time, and ah, you
know that song. I thought of that song, Don't Worry,
Be Happy, and I was wondering if there is actually
something in that because over the course of you know, life,
you hear people saying that happiness is a choice. And
I guess I feel that when I say that, it
(02:23):
sounds outrageous because you're in danger of not understanding when
people have serious mental illness that they need to assistance
and help with. But is there something about the choices
we make around the way we view life that you
know in a way you can have a mindset change. Well,
(02:46):
putting aside clinical depression and really serious stuff, can we
choose to be happier? There we go, I spat it
out in the end of night.
Speaker 4 (02:53):
We got there. Yeah, look to there is a reasonably
good amount of evidence that suggests that how you think
about the world and how you think about other people
and yourself in it and really help with adjusting your mood.
So if you see everybody as threatening and as life
as a bit terrible and down, it often feels that way.
(03:18):
And even with even with clinical depression, there's you know,
many people have heard of cognitive behavioral therapy, and that's
that's a known effective treatment for depression. And one of
the aspects of that is helping people uncover the traps
that they fall into when they get depressed, and they
and help them identify different ways of looking at the world.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
If that makes you that does sound like a really
clinical way of saying, don't worry, be happy, Yeah it doesn't.
Speaker 4 (03:49):
It nothing like a psychologist to say in about one
hundred words about what normal people could say in about ten.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
We should we should read draft the lyrics for that
song into clinical psychologists speak. I just forgot, but that
might not be such a hit.
Speaker 5 (04:04):
Yeah, there you go.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
But there's I guess that's the thing when people are
constantly I mean people are often will We all know
people have got the slightly ere approach to things like
how things. And I jokingly so when people say how am,
I say our fear to middling? But I just say
that because I'm I think it's slightly amusing way to
put it. But yeah, so what advice would you have
(04:29):
for people if they're thinking, you know what, I God,
I've been a bit lum lately. I need to do
something about it, apart from things like go for a walk,
take a deep breath of yeah whatever.
Speaker 4 (04:39):
Yeah, yeah, Look, I always find it really helpful to
actually write down what's going on in your head or
you know, in these days you could transcribe it or
speak it into something, but actually get it out of
your head and put it on paper. And we know
that sometimes our brain does sort of make a few
(05:01):
sort of tricks and traps in our thinking, you know,
tricks us into thinking that everything you know it's going
to be catastrophic, Oh my god, this is going to
go terribly or something. And actually when we put it
down on paper and sort of have a look at
it at a bit more. At a distance, we can
kind of pick apart that argument a little bit, but
it takes some effort and takes some motivation. You've got
(05:22):
to kind of want to do it. But yeah, that's
my first tip is actually get it out of your head,
write it down.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
Yeah, because I think that one of the things you
said there reminded me of if you do constantly have
the more you practice having a negative reaction to something,
then it becomes something that becomes more triggered automatically almost,
So you're you've really got to try and avoid that
negative approach to things. I guess, gosh, I'm trying to
tiptoe around and say the right thing so I don't
(05:50):
sound like I'm being sensitive to people who've got real
problems when it comes to mental things. But you know,
any behavior that you practice is going to become one
that is easily brought into in a way. So if
you are instantly wanting to see the negative and something,
eventually that's going to be the way you see everything.
Speaker 4 (06:07):
The word Yeah, there's somebody once said to me, words
create worlds, you know, So if you're constantly speaking negatively
about everything around you, then don't be surprised if that
flows through and how you feel about life and how
you approach life. And that's true even when people are depressed.
You know, cognand behavior therapy is are a really good treatment.
And I think it's too simplistic to say I don't worry,
(06:31):
be happy. Yeah, we're right, Yeah, and I think that
can be a bit dismissive of people. But the kind
of in a sense that the underlying that sound along principle. Right,
if you approach thinking about the world in a different way,
you might get a different result.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
Actually, we'd love to hear your thoughts about this. If
you've battled with just the way with sinking into a
world of negativity, it might be one way of putting it.
Actually that thing you said Google about writing it down.
It's a bit like when you're hacked off with someone.
I've often said to people, it's like, tell you right
to that person, but do not send it. Yeah, and
(07:10):
write down what you're really hacked off about, and then
have a look at it two days later, And invariably
I think people go, oh, yeah, I felt, in fact
what actually happens when you do write that down. So
you're annoyed with something and you write a letter and
then you sit on it for a couple of days.
What is that process of actually putting those thoughts into
(07:31):
writing do well?
Speaker 4 (07:32):
I think what it does it allows us to actually
stop our brain from taking shortcuts. So our brain will
take shortcuts to basically reinforce the position that we hold.
So if we're really annoyed at something, you know, our
brain distincts in a way that keeps that oh, of
course of every right to be. So writing it down
puts it. It puts a little bit of distance between
(07:54):
you and the thought, and you can kind of physically
read it as if you weren't quite so attached to it.
So arguably it cuts out some of that emotional attachment
to it, and you read it perhaps as if somebody
else had written it and go oh, I wouldn't have
said that. That doesn't And often when people do it,
they go, oh, actually it doesn't seem such quite a
big deal, as I hadn't made it up to be
(08:16):
in my head. And so I think it helps just
getting it down, getting some distance between you and the emotion.
Probably the waiting helps as well. You probably during that period,
if we think about emotions going in waves, you've probably
allowed that wave of anger just to subside a little
bit and you can engage the front part of your brain,
the clever part of your brain a bit more to go.
(08:36):
Or actually, now that I think of that, yeah, I
don't think I'll act quite so impulsively. I think I've
got a different take on it. I'm not just acting
out of pure emotion. I've got some thought in there too,
because I think.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
One of the classic examples when people always battle with
feeling good about life would be so the end of
a romantic relationship or something, a breakup of any important relationship,
and the sort of heartache that goes with this, and
those I mean, I would imagine that in many respects,
those are the moments where where there is you've got
(09:09):
to eleit yourself, grieve and wallow for a bit. Yes,
but there comes a point where you also have to
sort of snap out of it. And I mean it's
never I don't know if it's ever helpful to say
to someone hate snap out of it.
Speaker 4 (09:20):
Probably not, No, not, usually it doesn't. It doesn't usually
have much of an effect apart from people get angry
at you. But no, you're right, I mean, I think,
but that's the thing, right, there's got to be time
to allow that emotion to go through, like after a breakup,
and think about the wave of emotion that you experience,
that grief and that loss and that sadness, and then
you come down the other side. And when you come
(09:41):
down the other side and you've got a bit less
emotional about it, you're at the front party of brain
lights up a bit and you can think a bit more.
Oh yeah, actually, and it's not going to be all
of a sudden, but you might start kind of realizing, actually,
this happens to a lot of people. It's happened to
me before I've you know, this isn't the first my
first rodeo, you know. So you start to get a
(10:02):
little bit of perspective just as that. But it's not
about blocking out the emotion. I think it's about having both.
And I think often people sort of try to run
away from negative emotions. Oh I don't want to feel that.
I'll try to think happier.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
It's like it's both.
Speaker 4 (10:15):
You can feel the emotion and think differently about it
later on.
Speaker 3 (10:20):
What would be the signs that you're wallowing, and I mean,
is it a grieving process? I guess it's a form
of grief. But what would be the signs that you're
wallowing is going too far with it? Be something that
you'd pick up yourself. What would be something where a
friend would notice it and go, hey, look, yeah.
Speaker 4 (10:36):
I think often other people around you notice it, and
there's a little bit of a balance there, right, because
we might we get impatient with other people.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
Come on, can't.
Speaker 4 (10:45):
Snap out of it. I'm sick of you, are greeted.
It's like, well, I'm not. Well, I'm sick of it too.
But you think, but often people will say things like
I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired. You know,
I'm over it and I want to get it. I
want I don't want to feel like this anymore. I
recognize that's something bad has happened, and I'm not trying
(11:06):
to raise that, but I actually I don't want to
feel like this anymore. But I'm just not quite sure
what to do.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
What are the traps that people fall into that make
it harder to get out of that? Look?
Speaker 4 (11:17):
I think I think probably getting tied up in your
own head and being socially isolated, so not talking to
other people about it, so you can't you don't get
that that that objective from other people. You don't get
empathy from other people. And another big one is you know,
goes along with sort of isolation as you as often
people's energy levels decrease and they become couch potatoes and
(11:39):
like oh no. And then and you know, your behavior,
your brain follows your behavior a bit in that way.
You feel, you act depressed, and your brain, you think,
your thoughts then follow on and feel a bit down
as well because you're not very active. And a really
effective treatment when people are feeling not very happy is
actually to get them out, to get them active, to
(12:01):
get them moving, to get them doing actually doing things.
And sometimes the fee follow rather than vice versa.
Speaker 3 (12:07):
Because actually that can be one of the more irritating things.
If you've got one of those friends it's like, come on,
we're going for a walk. Come on, It's like I
don't want to. It's like, yes, come on, let's get
out and get some fresh airs. Like a bugger off.
You should actually let that person win.
Speaker 4 (12:19):
You probably should, Yeah, don't wait to want to do
that because if you if you wait for the motivation
to do it, you might be waiting a long time.
Just do it, Just do the It's a bit like
the Nike Just do it. Just get out there. You know,
theoretically it's kind to be good for you. I don't
feel like it, No neither do I, but we know
it'll be helpful.
Speaker 3 (12:35):
I'll tell you what. Here you are, you're looking for
an alignment with blunt umbrellas. Now you're calling out to
Nike for a free pair of shoes with that.
Speaker 4 (12:43):
Here we go, Yeah, here we come on. I hope
you're listening.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
Okay, Hey, look, we'd like to hear from you if
you have, if just on the tips and tricks you've
got to you've developed maybe over your life to deal
with moments where you actually do sl slip into the
drums a bit because I started it in a I
don't mean it in a trivial way, but I think
there is something about it. Choice Sometimes when you just
you have a choice whether you really want to sink
(13:09):
into the negative side of something that's happened to you
or whether you can brush it off. And some people,
you notice are better at sort of dealing with that stuff.
What are the techniques that you have learned that have
helped you deal with some with bad news and disappointment?
And I don't mean ah, you just pretend it hasn't happened,
because I think that's called denial, and and Google would
probably have something to say about that. We want to
(13:30):
take your calls on it. Don't worry be happy? Is
it that simple? Eight hundred and eighty ten eighty text
nine two nine two. If you've got anything you want
to talk about with us, give us a call. We'd
love to hear from your twenty it's twenty past four
news talks. He'd b Yes, we're talking about don't worry?
Be happy? Is it that simple? When you're feeling a
bit down in the dump, so you get into a
pattern of negative thinking. Actually, I guess that's the thing.
(13:52):
It's you can fall into cycles of all sorts of behaviors,
can't you? Google Southern from an umbrella group? Now, what's
your website again? Google? Before we go umbrella dot org
dot enz There we go umbrella dot org dot z z.
And if you ever have pleasure of the zoom with Google,
he's got a massive umbrella behind him to remind you
just in case. But yeah, patterns and cycles of thinking
(14:14):
of thought. I guess that's what you want to avoid,
isn't it.
Speaker 4 (14:17):
Well, I think I think we're always as humans inclined
to fall into patterns and habits. So I don't think
there's anything wrong with the habit. I think it's recognizing
that the habit that you're in a habit and choosing
whether that's the habits that you want to be in.
If that makes sense.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
What about the appreciation? One of the most irritating things
I think people can do. If you're feeling a bit
down and you're annoyed with your lot, and someone can say, well,
hang on to mete, You've got you know, you've got
a beautiful house, you've got you drive, a lovely cave,
you've got beautiful family, et cetera. Cheer up. But there
is something to that. It's just irritating advice to get.
Speaker 4 (14:55):
Yeah, it's irritating advice to get in that moment, because
in that moment, what you probably are looking for is
some empathy, some understanding from your friend. It says, ah, yeah,
things are really tough for you at the moment, and
I really feel for you, and clearly you're struggling, and
that's horrible for anybody. So when somebody's in the peak
of that moment of that problem, what they want and
(15:15):
what they need from other people is empathy and understanding.
Once that emotion has sort of died down a bit,
that's when they might be able to engage the problem
solving part of their brain and go, ah, man, actually,
now that ah Tim was right, Maybe my life isn't
quite as bad as I thought it was. I do
have some good things, and it can be useful to
(15:36):
compare your life to other people's who have it way
worse than you.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
Although also I think sometimes I remember having this conversation
with someone recently was saying that, oh, look, I shouldn't
really be upset. I know people have got a lot
tougher than I have, or whatever, and I just said
to them, look, you're feeling bad. If you're feeling bad,
you're feeling bad. You should never apologize for that. The
fact that you've got, you know, things that you can
be grateful for, that's fine, but don't short change yourself
(16:01):
on the validity of your own feelings.
Speaker 4 (16:05):
Yeah, yeah, I completely agree. Look, I think it's both.
So you're trying to you need the validation for what
you're feeling. As you say, whatever you're feeling is what
you're feeling, and that's fine. And at the same time,
there might be well, later on, there might be a
time where you go, maybe I don't want to keep
feeling like this, and are there ways that I can
think about the world differently that might lead me to
(16:26):
feel differently without invalidating what I was feeling before, And
that might it might actually be useful at that stage
to think about what I've gotten, what the world has
given me. And actually, now that I'm not in the
bits of despair, I'm just out of that a little bit.
I'm at the edge of the pit. I'm kind of
going I actually no, it's I've actually got a few
things going on. It's okay, But don't look for a
(16:47):
magical cure. Like it's not like you think that once
and suddenly go, oh, I'm just amazing now. It's you know,
if we get into habits, we'll get into a habit
of thinking more positively, and over time that will lead
to a change in our mood. It won't be dramatic,
it won't be instantaneous.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
There's a text here sort of I think, which reflects
sort of what we've been saying. Somebody says, I look
for I looked for all the good things in my
life they had to offer when I was depressed after
a marriage breakdown. Have two mortgage free houses, three teenagers
who are on the right path with life and with
me being a migrant, have the privilege to live in
this beautiful country. And I think that's something that you
(17:25):
would have to be ready though, And you're not going
to be jumping into that thought straight away when you feel.
Speaker 4 (17:29):
Yeah, that's right. You have to be ready. And often
when somebody else says that, we dismiss it because when
we're talking about it somebody else, we want them to
understand and support us, not to tell us what we're
thinking is wrong. And I can imagine the process that
person that wrote the text. I can imagine that was
a long process. They didn't sort of wake up one
morning go oh well, I've got the world. It's all
(17:50):
right over that now and I feeling much better. That'll
have taken time, and I imagine that text is a
synthesis of what they did over a period of weeks
or months or even years.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
Another one says tim I think that technology has a
lot to blame for many people's state of mind because
it results in anti socialism, which has been proven to
shrink and prematurely age the brain. I don't know the
truth of that, but I would have thought you had
put down the phone and get out at door and
breathing some fresh air.
Speaker 4 (18:18):
It's interesting because there's been that debate recently about banning
social media for under sixteen year olds, and it's like, yeah,
that there's some validity in that, but we also know
that social media, the social part of it is it
can be helpful for teenager at that times, especially if
you feel, you know, if you live way up in
(18:39):
the what's by yourself and you feel different from everybody
else around you, connecting with other people online can be
quite helpful. So I think it's I think it's not
seeing social media or devices is all good.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
That sounds like an argument for saying, yes, get on
the WhatsApp and be in touch with your friends, But
I would say keep off the Instagram because everyone's life
on Instagram is.
Speaker 4 (19:02):
Perfectly yeah that you know what I mean. Sides to
it on there, I think educating and helping supporting young
people to figure out how to use social media well
as really as really useful. And if we use it
as a tool to connect and support other social relationships,
that's great. But as you say, not to not to
raise sort of envy and and and desire about God.
(19:26):
I wish I had that, because.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
I think I think that's the reason I generally loathe
social media when it comes to thinking about the impact
it might have on my kids or not. Because anyway, hey, look,
let's take some calls Tom.
Speaker 4 (19:39):
High, good afternoon, Tim.
Speaker 6 (19:45):
Do it all right, thank you? But so look, just
like say, someone quickly combined the question with it as
I like, I might have to go to you later.
I made a claim after seventy years to State Insurance.
They there and I mentioned my firearms, which I thought
had been sure all that time. Holy hell, he's got guns,
(20:09):
and an assessor who was going to come called the police.
They came that night, spent four hours boring holes in
my gun safe, and took my safe away. The state
insurance have made a decision on my mental state. Oh,
even though I didn't make any special claims. But I'm
(20:32):
on a downer because my very special lady died a
while back, and I'm not supposed to be on an
upper with that. Am I that the state insurance has
done your job Google and the police have exacerbated it postulated.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
Me did you have a gun license for.
Speaker 6 (20:52):
At this house? For sixty three years? With the police,
I was secretary the Sporting Shooters Association for twelve years.
They know me, the police, but the authority down a
new primo.
Speaker 3 (21:05):
Call on mental healthy that seems a strange one that
does seem slightly tangential, but it's doogal.
Speaker 4 (21:12):
Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's if I'm picking this up
right time, it sounds like State insurance have said you
might be feeling down and therefore we're a bit questionable
about you having a gun license. If that's the connection
I'm picking up, then yeah that I'm not quite sure
how insurance does these things, but you'd hope that they
would at least talk to you about it first.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
But yeah, anyway, thanks for cool time. Sorry, I'm not
sure we're in a position that does sound like of
quite a detailed and convoluted case there, but thanks for that. Now,
how on a second, tell you what I also want
to discuss that question around people. It seems to be
the latest trend everyone's diagnosing themselves with ADHD, and they're
(21:57):
doing their own online testing Google. It's almost it's very popular.
And in fact, I I don't think I know anyone
who doesn't think, oh I've got I've got a little
bit of ADHD. Anyone's diagnosed themselves. It is. It is
the sort of thing. It's the thing, it's the it's
the topic, isn't it.
Speaker 4 (22:17):
Yes, indeed, it's it's the diagnosis of the day, that's yes.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
No.
Speaker 4 (22:21):
I like the use of the of the French termsure.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
The diagnosis toure.
Speaker 4 (22:27):
Diagnosis to sure. Hey, Look, what I would say is
there is no test for ADHD. So if you have done,
if you think you've done a test and it's definitive,
then you're mistaken. There is no one test for ADHD.
Many of us identify with some of the symptoms of
ADHD because they're on a normal kind of tangent not
(22:49):
tangent continuum. There's no test, so all it's going to
do is say, hey, yeah, you might be it might
be worth getting an assessment.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
Actually, when people say I'm on the spectrum, yep, uh,
I guess technically we're all on the spectrum. It's just
which end are you on or are you right in
the middle.
Speaker 4 (23:09):
That's right, And I think that's helpful. And when we
do use that term spectrum because it says, actually, we're
all kind of in here somewhere, but because back in
the day, they didn't used to be either you had
something or you didn't. Yeah, if that made sense. But
I think talking about there being a spectrum is much
more helpful because it acknowledges that for most mental health conditions,
(23:32):
we all have little bits of it from times.
Speaker 3 (23:35):
Actually, I think you've probably differentiated between the difference between
mental health and physical health because, as you say, everyone's
kind of got this in because the mental health is
so whereas you can't really kind of have syphilis.
Speaker 4 (23:50):
That's an interesting choice that you've used there. But no,
I agree.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
Actually, I'll be honest, I thought that was slightly more
comical than saying some really's other serious disease it wasn't curable.
Speaker 4 (24:03):
It's like, well, you can't have a broken leg. You can't.
You can't be kind of pregnant. Oh, we're all on
the pregnancy continuum. No I'm not. I'm free. I'm free pregnant.
Speaker 3 (24:15):
I guess the only thing with regard to physical illness,
is you might have a mild case of whatever it is.
Speaker 4 (24:21):
Yeah, truth, right, yeah, true, But there are some things
physically you know, you either have OVID or you don't.
It's so mental health is not like that. So it's
for almost all mental health problems, it's a continuum and
we can relate to them somehow. I'm sometimes a bit
(24:42):
impulsive or a bit inattentive, and those are some of
the symptoms of ADHD. Do I have them? And that's
one of the complications of trying to make the diagnosis,
I think is which is behind some.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
Of us what actually, let's let's get into it, because
it's so easy to say because someone's got their own
idea what ADHD is, because we've heard or someone's child
has got ADHD is on the spectrum of this or
that or some of some growing up as and we've
all formed an opinion on what it is, and we
make it up for ourselves. Oh, this is they're quite
full on on that, or they've got quite a mild case.
Speaker 4 (25:12):
What is a d HD ADHD attention deficit hyperactivity disorder,
And it's got three core symptoms, so impulsiveness, so doing
things without thinking, and that could be saying things that
it could be acting without thinking and going, oh my god,
what I do that for? So impulsiveness, an attention or
(25:33):
difficulty concentrating, can't keep my mind on things, I get
distracted easily. And hyperactivity, so the feeling of being restless,
keyed up on edge all the time, having high levels
of energy. Now there are but yeah, so you can
(25:54):
have that. They tend to fall into two groups. There's
a there's an impulsive sorry, an inattentive group, so they
tend to have more of the inattention I can't focus
sort of symptoms. There's a hyperactive impulsive type, which is
more the hyperactivity, always on the go, up and down
all the time. And then there's a combined group who
(26:16):
have all markets of all three of those groups of symptoms.
Most people have the combined type, and it's arguably that
it's underdiagnosed the inattentive because we kind of overlook those
people because they are But sorry, it's my dog's going
nuts in the background.
Speaker 3 (26:31):
I didn't hear a thing. Actually, I just heard you
stop talking. It's a very good microphone you've got there. Yeah,
still going So what about you said there was no
test for it, So how is it diagnosed?
Speaker 4 (26:47):
So there are some question years. So again this is
where it differs from a physical health diagnosis. Right, if
you've got we'll go back to your example, Tim, for
some reason of syphilis, you can go get a blood
test and that I think, I think this is what
you can do. I think you can go get a
blood test and that if you get the right test,
it will show whether you have it or not ADHD.
(27:07):
There is no such tests. And that's the same for
almost every mental health problem that I can think of.
There is no single test that will say you've definitively
got it or you haven't. There are questionnaires that you
can answer, there are some neuropsychological assessments that can say hey, yeah,
you have lower levels of attention than other people. But
(27:28):
it's a case of talking to people establishing a history.
That's because the current thinking is that we would be
born with it or develop it very early on in life.
You don't get it as an adult at least that's
the that's the accepted thinking at the moment. So you're
looking for a long history of having it since childhood.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
Okay, because what about them? And it's also it's I'm
not sure if it's viewed as having the stigma that
it might initially have had. In fact, I almost get
the sense that some people almost like I've got ADHD. Yeah,
it's like it's a superpower. I mean, I guess the
question is when when is it a problem?
Speaker 4 (28:05):
I guess if it's yeah, look that that's a really
important part of any mental health diagnosis. It's got to
be causing a problem. Like, if it's not causing you
a problem, then it's not really in quotes, a disorder
is it, Because it's just it's just part of who
you are. And if it's not a problem, is not
a problem until it's causing a problem. So it has
to be causing a problem.
Speaker 3 (28:26):
You know.
Speaker 4 (28:27):
I've met a number of journos, so that's my interest here.
Who said, you know what, I don't think I've got ADHD.
But working in media really helps me because actually we've
got tight deadlines which I have to meet. I can't
not meet them, and the topic changes about every two days,
so I don't have to keep my concentration or attention
on one thing for very long, and I do get
really excited and interested in it. So in that way
(28:49):
is it almost can be a superpower, but it's just
a superpowers. The flip side that can sometimes be right, and.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
Even the impulsiveness side of things, or the can up
to a point I think, be the reason that you
do something that's maybe someone who is a bit more
cautious wouldn't, because you like, yes, just do this, and
all of a sudden, as I was thinking of actually
a classic not a classic example, but I think of
someone who was just ridiculously talented everything at everything, And
(29:20):
we have to go and back in history, but I'm
thinking I'd love to know if Leonardo da Vinci had
sat down with a clinical psychologist whether he would have
found he was just he was banging on all level.
Speaker 4 (29:31):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'd be fascinating to meet a lot
of those Winston Churchill I remember hearing, I don't know
if this is true or not, that he used to
sleep about three hours a night and consume a bottle
of brandy every night.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
He ran incredible amounts and it was.
Speaker 4 (29:44):
Like man, but so this was so I'd love to
meet some of these historical characters and see, you know,
see run the clinical psychology measuring tape over them and
see how they see how they measured up.
Speaker 3 (29:57):
Look, if you'd like to discuss any of this, and
you have any questions around ADHD as well. We started
the show talking about don't worry, be happy from the
point of view of asking iver's happiness a simpler choice
than we make it, but also with having a chat
about ADHD because everyone said not everyone, I'm generalizing. Sorry,
my apologies. It is in the media a lot about
(30:19):
people going, oh, you've done this test online, I've got ADHD.
You'll see it on social media. Oh apparently I've got ADHD.
Blah blah blah blah blah. But we've got guess what,
We've got to Google Sutherland here and he knows a
lot more about it than you and I, So if
you've got any questions, he's not going to diagnose you,
by the way, we don't do that on a talk
back show. Do any any interesting questions around that sort
of side of things and give us a call. We'd
love to hear from you. It's eighteen minutes to five
(30:42):
news talks. He'd be yes, Welcome back to the Weekend Collective.
Let's get into the course talking about ADHD and Chloe.
Speaker 5 (30:49):
Hello, Hi, ah, good Thanks so basically, I just got
a question. So I'm by polar type one. But my
cousin who does display quite a lot of similar signs
to me as being diagnosed with or apparently diagnosed with ADHD.
(31:12):
And what I've noticed is that the medication that they
prescribed to him has definitely not helped the situation. If anything,
it's made it worse. And there's also another person in
my life that has gone through a similar thing, and
I've also noticed that the medication prescribed to them has
made it way worse. But they're completely convinced that you know,
(31:32):
that's what the problem is, and they're kind of going
down the dark hole, which experience can, as you're probably
quite well aware of it, can end in something quite drastic.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (31:46):
Yeah, look, it's a really good point. There is a
high I mean, there's some overlap at least between some
of the symptoms bipolar and ADHD. And my basic piece
of advice would be, if you'll medical if somebody's medication
isn't working and is making them worse, then I'd be
going back to the person I prescribe it and saying, hey,
look this is not this is not helping. I'm getting worse.
(32:08):
It possibly is useful for that person to say, hey,
I've also got a relative who's got bipolar disorder. That
might be a useful piece of information for the GP
or the psychiatrist who's prescribing to.
Speaker 3 (32:19):
Know, actually some people do Some people sort of just
get a prescription, they take it and they go. Then
they notice it's not working very well, but they just
keep taking it, as opposed to going, actually, I'm going
to better go back to my doctrine and say I'm
not liking this at all.
Speaker 4 (32:31):
Yeah, sometimes people take meds and it doesn't do much.
But I think definitely when it's when a medication is
making you worse than that would be definitely a time
i'd be going back to the personal prescribe and say, hey,
it's not doesn't seem to seems to be making things
even worse.
Speaker 3 (32:47):
Not better. Okay, thank you, Chloe, Mary Hello, Hello, Hi.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
I was.
Speaker 5 (32:56):
Not with the sect and ADHD.
Speaker 6 (33:01):
When I.
Speaker 5 (33:02):
When I started doing some study.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
And I have found out that.
Speaker 6 (33:10):
My children's father has been so ADHD.
Speaker 4 (33:15):
No, that tends to be a hereditary thing that comes
down the line.
Speaker 3 (33:19):
Oh yeah, okay, absolutely it does.
Speaker 4 (33:24):
There's and it doesn't mean it's a bit like having
blue eyes or red hair or something. You know that
it's not it's not an immediate Oh my parents had this,
so I will definitely have it. But I'm more at
risk or have a greater chance of having ADHD if
a relative has ADHD, especially if it's a parent. So yep,
there is some genetic basis to it. But as I said,
(33:46):
it's not it's not quite one one, but definitely an
increased risk.
Speaker 3 (33:49):
Probably actually a lot of people would have a form
of ADHD. As he said, we're all on the spectrum.
But when would you need to see someone and maybe
receive I don't know, medication for it, which sounds pretty
full on.
Speaker 4 (34:03):
Yeah, look again, if you go back said a shoe
of when is it a problem? Is it causing a
problem in my life? And that it might be a
if you're at school, you're probably not listening to this,
But if you are a school at ak it could
be interfering with his studies. But often at work, if
it's causing a real issue for you at work, if
you're really disorganized, you don't get things done on time,
and this has been a patent for you for a
(34:23):
long while, that might be a time to actually go
and see psychologist and see about getting a good assessment
for it.
Speaker 3 (34:31):
Okay, all right, we'll be back in just a moment.
We'll take a break. It is eleven and a half
minutes to five news Talks. He'd be welcome back to
the Weekend Collective. This is a health harbum, Tim Beverage.
My guest is Google Sutherland from the Umbrella group Umbrella
dot org dot NZ. If you want to check out
the work that Google does with his team, and we're
talking about ADHD among other things.
Speaker 7 (34:51):
Steve, Hello, Yeah, good day, How are you going good?
Speaker 3 (34:53):
Thanks?
Speaker 7 (34:55):
I've got a son who has been diagnosed. When he
was a young fella cams diagnosed him with Aspergers and ADHD.
Now that he's working, he is really I mean, he
struggled at school, but now that he's working, he's really
struggling to concentrate on what he has to do. His
(35:18):
mind just flicks from one thing to another. The hoops
he is having to jump through to try and get
some medication for this is unbelievable.
Speaker 4 (35:29):
Yeah, it's a real it's a real issue that at
the moment, isn't it. It's because only a psychiatrist can
start that medication or a pediatrician, and psychiatrists are scarce
of Hen's teeth, so you can't just go to a
GP and get it started. It has to go to
a specialist. And I know that there is the government
(35:49):
is looking at this at the moment. There's a cross
party mental health group across all the major political parties
looking to see if they can free this up because
it's a that's an experienced heaps of people are having
and it's a real barrier to getting people good treatment.
Speaker 7 (36:02):
Sadly, but even when you're diagnosed every two months, you've
got to go back and jump through the hoops again.
Speaker 4 (36:09):
Jump through the hoops again. Yeah, it's all about it
being a restricted medication and and they're looking at whether
they can looten that up. But it is it's a
real hassle I know, and I know lots of people
like that. So hopefully it gets better in the in
the in the not too distant future. I know that
the government's certainly working on it.
Speaker 3 (36:29):
Yeah, thanks Steve, Yeah, thanks for you. Cool. Actually, there
was something on the news. I think they were speaking
with a young woman who was being and who might
have done a piece for the news, and she was saying, look,
you know, I know myself, I've got this condition and
I shouldn't have to go off to the psychiatrist every
couple of months. Or I think I'm remembering the right case.
(36:50):
But what do you think they're going to do. Do you
think they're going to maybe allow other mental health professionals
to actually prescribe it at various intervals or what?
Speaker 4 (36:59):
Yeah, look, and I'm not in on these conversations, but
from what I've read and seen that they are looking at,
is there a way to give gps some extra training
that will then allow them to start prescribing it rather
than having to go through a psychiatrist. And it's all
about the medicines being a needing a special authority, which
is a special class of medications because they have a
(37:22):
street value and they can be used, they can be abused,
not like penicillin week. So that's why there's the concern.
But it's not working. I think everybody would agree at
the moment.
Speaker 3 (37:33):
What about the role of clinical psychologists and things. Would
you want to have that ability or are you saying
no things?
Speaker 4 (37:38):
Oh look, it's interesting that that came up as a
topic a few years ago. Maybe a decade ago, and
it really split the profession. So people often say, what's
the difference between a psychologist and a psychiatrist. Well, one
of the big differences is psychologists can't prescribe medication. We
don't have that medical training. There was a move to
give that some psychologists and the states have that ability,
(38:01):
but it really split the profession. Some people wanted it
and some people didn't. Well, I can.
Speaker 3 (38:05):
Imagine why you wouldn't because it's a whole different cup
of tea, because you've got the physiological side effects of metal.
You know, it's not just about the mental wellbeing, and
there's physical effects of medications and the physiological complications and
all that sort of stuff. But if you just look
on look at the possible complications from taking paracetamol, you'd
never touch the stuff because any per you look at,
(38:27):
here's possible complications. I don't think you did. My head on.
Speaker 4 (38:30):
That was one of the strong arguments against it was
just like, actually, clinical sites don't have that background training
in biology and chemistry. You'd have to do some extra training.
It's not on the table anymore. More likely would be
people like GPS or nurse practitioners being able to do that,
they've got more of that medical background.
Speaker 3 (38:52):
I guess. Actually you wonder if there's a role with
clinical psychologists where you can make a recommendation this person
is we've diagnosed, and this is that they would be
a candidate for it over to you on the physiological.
Speaker 4 (39:02):
Side, and sometimes it works in practice like that. But yeah,
I think that'd be a good pathway forward.
Speaker 3 (39:07):
Yeah, excellent. Hey, thank you so much today for joining
us Google, and we acknowledge it was short notice given
as pleasure.
Speaker 4 (39:14):
As always, I was just sitting at home, not just twiddling.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
My thumbs, reminding your own business, your own business.
Speaker 4 (39:20):
I'm not always happy to always always enjoyed. Came along
with you talking about it.
Speaker 3 (39:24):
Thanks very much. We'll be back shortly with Smart Money.
Speaker 1 (39:27):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to news
talks it'd be weekends from three pm, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio.
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