November 16, 2024 • 40 mins
A recent study by Age Concern found that 59% of Kiwis over the age of 65 had recently felt lonely or socially isolated.
The CEO, Kevin Lamb, has said the health burden of loneliness is just as damaging as many chronic medical conditions.
But how can we catch it before it begins to spiral, and is there a way to avoid loneliness?
Psychotherapist Kyle MacDonald joins The Weekend Collective.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talk SED.
Be you longsome tonight? Do you miss.
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Are you sorry?
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We drifted?
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Does your mammal misty bray?
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When I kissed you?
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When I kissed you?
Speaker 6 (00:41):
And my producers worried that my MIC's on?
Speaker 5 (00:46):
I know my MIC's on. Tara's deliberately crooning along there.
Speaker 6 (00:51):
Welcome back to the Weekend Collective. If you've missed any
we had an interesting discussion with both David Symbol and
Duncan Webby's Justice spokespersons for Labor on the Treaty Principles bill.
Speaker 5 (01:00):
You can go and check that out.
Speaker 6 (01:01):
Look for the Weekend Collective wherever you wherever you get
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That's the easy way to do it. You can go
to the news Talks'd website as well, and we get
these hours loaded as quickly as we can once they
have concluded. But right now it's time for a change
of change of temperature or a change of subject at
least the health up and my guest is psychotherapist. He's
(01:23):
host of the Nutters Club, is regular guest on my show,
and we're very grateful for that and his name is
Carl McDonald.
Speaker 5 (01:28):
Hello, Kyl, how are you very well? Did you want
to join him with Elvis?
Speaker 6 (01:32):
Then? I mean it's a very soothing way to get
into the r, wasn't it.
Speaker 4 (01:35):
No, I wouldn't want to ruin your ratings singing.
Speaker 7 (01:39):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
I think you know you can get away with it
to be sunfishal.
Speaker 6 (01:44):
I wouldn't try and imitate Elvis really seriously. I just
love the fact that Tyra was protecting pointing at me,
going the red light up, your MIC's on. It's like,
I know, it's right, poor thing. I must stress around.
Speaker 4 (01:57):
So it's quite nice to be sung in.
Speaker 5 (01:59):
So I quite like that.
Speaker 4 (02:00):
It's a nice way to welcome a gaest welcome.
Speaker 5 (02:03):
Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 6 (02:05):
Now we want to talk a little bit about loneliness,
and actually because the study that found fifty nine percent
of kis over the age of sixty five, just on
an age basis, and it felt recently lonely or socially
isolated fifty nine percent of people retirement age basically, and
the question about loneliness, it's been the other word that's
(02:27):
been used to describe it, I think is it's epidemic proportions,
which actually I'm not surprised about.
Speaker 5 (02:37):
I don't think why is that because I think.
Speaker 6 (02:42):
I think that I know, they just think we're living
I'm not sure if we're living as social as lives
as we may have done. Is it just me I'm
reflecting on But I don't know, Maybe I think that maybe,
oh god.
Speaker 5 (02:55):
I don't want to mention COVID, but I.
Speaker 6 (02:57):
Think but I think that was a kind of breakaway
to it which we haven't quite in our social habits.
Just I mean, I think in the number of times
that you might have friends around for dinner and all
that sort stuff. I don't know our sociability, whether that's
got anything to do it, but I'm certainly not surprised
that people as they get older and the expression ever
decreasing circles. Yeah, But firstly, I guess, what's the difference
(03:21):
between being alone and loneliness?
Speaker 8 (03:24):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (03:25):
Great question, because it's important to define some of the
terms that they use in this research. So the first
thing to be really clear about is when we talk
about and there's actually a lot of research and we
can touch on some of the other sort of areas
of concern and what we're sort of seeing globally. But
the first thing to define is that when we talk
about these studies into loneliness, we're talking about the subjective
(03:45):
experience of feeling lonely, right, So what we're not talking
about the negative impact of being alone per se, because
all of us might spend some time alone day to
day or week to week or maybe even you know,
in terms of how we structure our lives, and the
capacity to feel a sense subjectively of feeling lonely obviously
(04:08):
differs from person to person. So that's the first thing
to be clear about. When we talk about these studies,
we're talking about people who would report feeling lonely, and
of course we can define that a little bit further,
which basically means not having enough social contact or not
enough time with other people in their lives.
Speaker 5 (04:25):
What about people who are loners?
Speaker 4 (04:28):
Yeah, well, I mean again, so if your choice is
to be alone and that's not subjectively distressing to you,
in fact that your preferred way of living, then actually
we don't tend to see the same negative effects. Now,
you know, psychotherapists love blurry and we.
Speaker 5 (04:44):
Love the love we lovery.
Speaker 4 (04:46):
We love the blurry bits in between the gray bits
that the nuance. So one of the things that's hard
to tell sometimes is if we spend a lot of
time alone, we can become habituated to not experiencing loneliness.
So one of the things to be really clear about
is that that isolation can become habitual to the point
where actually we feel as if we don't have any option.
(05:10):
And what's really quite hard sometimes is to get people
to actually get in tune with how they feel about
being alone.
Speaker 6 (05:16):
Okay, so is it a problem if people get habituated
to being lonely because if they are used to it
and they don't have a perception that there's anything wrong,
is there anything wrong?
Speaker 4 (05:33):
Yeah, that's the loop, right, Yeah. Yeah, So it is
about being able to be really honest with ourselves and
and sort of you know, ask ourselves the question, am
I just accepting this because I don't think anything else
is possible? And furthermore, are what we're seeing things like,
for instance, depression, perhaps substance abuse, drinking, you know, are
(05:54):
we seeing other things show up that may be a
way to cope with a subjective, subjective feeling of loneliness
because what we note them, and that the research that
we're talking about today is really clear about this is
that actually the health effects of prolonged loneliness are quite
severe potentially, you know, the classic studies sort of compared
it to smoking in terms of its lifestyle impact and
(06:18):
cardiovascular risk stroke risk. Because what we know is that
being lonely, if we want to be with people and
we can't be with people, causes stress, which leads to cortisol,
which is the wholemone of stress, and prolonged cortisol exposure
is really harmful for those lifestyle so called to the
lifestyle factors of physical health.
Speaker 6 (06:37):
And I guess if you are lonely, then maybe you
might not as be motivated to go out and exercise,
which is a way of counteracting stress as well, and
all those sorts of things and doing. And also the
cause is the fact loneliness might mean that you may
be substance abuse or something for or whatever.
Speaker 4 (06:55):
Ye as a way to feel better, which is you
know why most people end up abusing substances. So you
mentioned COVID, I would say that there's another sea.
Speaker 6 (07:02):
Where I felt a it lazy when I did that.
By the way, it's still in the back of it.
Speaker 4 (07:06):
It's a factor. It is a factor that the other
sea word, which is really important is community. So one
of the factors that has led to a breakdown of
community is COVID. But we know that the thanks the
one have been tracking this way for quite some time.
And you know, I think common sense wise, we can
sort of think about this, right, the things like night
classes not being as available, you know, people not having
(07:27):
as much spare time perhaps, you know, two full time
plus incomes in a household, leading to less contact socially
and outside of the sort of the work life. Working
from home of course convenient and pragmatic for a lot
of people, but also isolates us from colleagues. And I
think we can sort of keep listing those things, can't
we When we think about what's actually broken down that
incidental social community, you know, whether it be volunteering or
(07:50):
attending a church or going along to a sports club
and getting involved in things, those things have been eaten away,
I think over the last decade.
Speaker 5 (07:57):
I think that's yeah, I think you've nailed it.
Speaker 6 (07:58):
Actually, what is what I should have said slightly more
eloquently myself? Can you be lonely when you're surrounded by
lots of people.
Speaker 4 (08:06):
Yeah, that's one of the other tricky bits of this. Right,
So often I don't.
Speaker 6 (08:10):
Mean in a crowded street. I mean, for instance, you
might be running an organization and the buck stops with
you and you've got lots of people reporting to and
all that sort of stuff, but essentially isolated maybe or
unsupported or anyway.
Speaker 4 (08:23):
Yeah, so that's again when we get into the nuance
of it, right, I think you can actually potentially be
in an unhappy family environment and feel lonely. So feeling
lonely does not necessarily mean being alone either. That's the
other take on this. A better way in some ways
of defining what we're talking about is do you feel
connected to other human beings?
Speaker 5 (08:42):
Right?
Speaker 4 (08:43):
And connection can be small amounts, so it can be
as simple as, you know, a yarn with someone at
the supermarket or while we're filling the car up with gas,
or it can be more meaningful connections in our life.
And so again, when we think about that breakdown of
community that I think, you know, we've seen in the
western world at least over the last decade, being able
to shop from home, being able to have things delivered,
(09:05):
you know, so much of our life now can be
delivered to our doorstep. That once we get into that
pattern of avoidance of not going out and interacting socially
and with our community, then loneliness can grow as a
byproduct of those choices.
Speaker 6 (09:17):
We would love to hear from you eight hundred and
eighty whether you are lonely or you've actually overcome it,
or what what did you notice? What did you notice
or what triggered you to actually do something about it,
because as Kyle has mentioned, it's something you can become.
I think that the word was habituated too. You get
used to your isolated isolation, then you suddenly think, well,
(09:38):
you know, you know, you get used to your routine
and your pattern and your pattern in your daily life
and looking after yourself. And have you have you broken
that habit or broken that isolation? And how did you
do it? But also how do we keep rebuilding? Because
I think we are gradually establishing our sense of community.
(10:00):
But I do think that that's that it's something that
we have suffered from ever since COVID, the breakdown of community.
Maybe you're not belonging to clubs that you might have
belonged to or organizations and things like that. I'd love
to hear from you if you've got any questions you
want to talk to Kyle about or you want to
ask Kyle, then we'd love to hear from you as well.
Eight hundred and eighty ten eighty text nine to nine
(10:24):
two which I think we might go to the break
now'll be back in just to take give us a call.
Speaker 5 (10:30):
Highs Fob.
Speaker 6 (10:35):
Hello, Well, what the hell is this? This is apparently
it's a song about loneliness? What acorn?
Speaker 5 (10:45):
What is it? Econ? I never heard of it.
Speaker 4 (10:49):
We could give you some helium you can sing along with.
Speaker 9 (10:51):
It here doing a show if we did a show
with just a bunch of helium balloons.
Speaker 6 (11:03):
Anyway, Hello, if you joined us, I hope you're not
feeling so lonely this hour because we keep You're keeping
us company, We're keeping you company. But this is the
health of Umpton Beverage. Car McDonald's my guest. We're talking
about dealing with loneliness, and just before I go to
my first caller, I think that one of the questions
will be worth exploring is how do you avoid loneliness
as you get older? Because fifty nine percent of kiwis
(11:26):
over the age of sixty five feeling lonely or social number.
That's I mean, that's two out of three almost. Yeah, okay,
six out of ten, four out of three out of five.
Speaker 5 (11:35):
There we go.
Speaker 6 (11:36):
That's about as far as I can reduce that good
three fifths.
Speaker 5 (11:39):
There we go.
Speaker 6 (11:41):
Right, let's take some calls, Yannie, Hello, Hello to you both.
Speaker 10 (11:47):
Great song, great song?
Speaker 5 (11:50):
Which one the Elvis one or that last song?
Speaker 10 (11:53):
The last one just now, the Helium one. It's an
awesome song. Should hear the whole thing. It's so great.
It's not all just like that. But anyway, Yeah, I'm
sixty seven, and I see it in a little bit
of a different way because I am a survivor of
Lake Ellis and abuse and kids. So I've chosen to
(12:18):
be alone, live alone because I don't trust people at all.
And so I, yeah, I live alone. I choose my
times when I see people and I don't. I don't
go to cafes, I don't go to nightclubs because I
(12:39):
just can't cope with all the noise and the people
around me. But I have to say that I am
not lonely as such. I quite. I have a great
relationship with myself and I do talk to myself a lot.
But I know that a lot of other people do
that anyway, that sometimes.
Speaker 4 (12:56):
The only way to guarantee intelligent conversation.
Speaker 10 (12:58):
I find, well, that's right, and I sort of just
you know, ask myself things and the and then I answer,
you know, I do a lot of things, like I
walk an hour and a half every morning.
Speaker 6 (13:10):
You know, where does your social connection come from? Do
you bump into people? Do you just not need it?
Speaker 10 (13:17):
I just don't need it, I do, though, I go.
I've just started, actually, which is very weird, started going
to a friend's house for dinner every now and again.
And it's something I haven't done for years. And we
play cards. Oh my god, and and and it's fun.
And I come home and I think, oh my god,
I really enjoyed that.
Speaker 5 (13:38):
Good.
Speaker 10 (13:40):
I wouldn't want to do it all the time.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
I just.
Speaker 4 (13:44):
What you're doing a wonderful job of illustrating. And thanks
so much for calling in and letting us know how
it works for you, because I think what what you're
outlining really clearly is actually, when we look at what
this looks like at an individual level, it's about listening
to ourselves and being honest for ourselves and recognizing that
loneliness is a feeling points out when our life is
(14:05):
of balance, and particularly I think when it comes to
as we move through life, that need might change. I mean,
you know, most of us know that, for instance, teenagers
and young people are generally to you thrash a stereotype
generally more social, right, and that's partly a life and
stage thing. But what we also know is that actually
(14:25):
that need to be social to have a wide group
of friends changes for all of us over life and
is different for each individual. So listening to yourself and
connecting with a friend and starting to be just that
little bit more connected to people.
Speaker 5 (14:37):
Sounds like a great plan.
Speaker 6 (14:38):
Thanks very much, thanks to you call.
Speaker 5 (14:39):
You and niece really appreciate it.
Speaker 4 (14:41):
Jan, Hello, Hi there.
Speaker 11 (14:45):
I have three points. First one, some people are introverted
and love their own company, don't like being in crowds
or a socializing, so they're very happy on their own
prefer it. And the extraverted people absolutely have to socialize
(15:05):
the ways they feel unhappy and disconnected, et cetera. The
second point, more people should be able to have pets
which keep them company, and places like race homes and
villages and elderly people on their own it should be facilitated.
(15:28):
Instead of all those dogs in Auckland, eleven thousand of
them being killed by the council, they should have all
been rehomed to good family.
Speaker 4 (15:38):
I agree with you about pets. They're incredibly important when
it comes to feeling a sense of connection.
Speaker 5 (15:43):
What's your third one?
Speaker 11 (15:44):
Jan the third one? Since I've been here in long
than new some communities around here's sound probably even in
the world. If you weren't born here and grew up here,
you're not accepted. That's it. You could be here for
ten years and you still won't be accepted. Yes, the
(16:05):
first thing they ask you were you born here? And
if you're not, that's it. You can't shut out from
any sort of social connection, say snub you and very snobby.
And that's how I found it. And a lot of
people well.
Speaker 6 (16:25):
Actually yeah, I mean I think, yeah, I think I
think there would be people who feel that if they've
come from a different country that it might take it
might actually sometimes be a bit of a struggle.
Speaker 4 (16:35):
Oh, it's hard to re establishing a network when you
when you're from when you immigrate into a different country.
But I think you know, particularly when we come we
come back to the research around the fact that this
is being recognized as a problem for those as they
move into the later part of life. I think one
of the really important things is to make sure that
you maintain the capacity to be what I call a joiner.
(16:58):
Make sure you're someone who's a joiner. And what I
mean by that is that you're willing to join things,
and that includes being able to try new things. So
I think I say that because if you have the
unfortunate experience of feeling like you're not welcome in a
particular group or community or activity, don't give up. Keep
trying because I think I'm sure that that happens. I'm
sure that that you know that to the nature of
(17:19):
social groups and people is that they sometimes can be
a bit rough, not very welcoming. But keep trying. I
think it's really important.
Speaker 5 (17:27):
Actually, is.
Speaker 6 (17:30):
It harder to form friendships as you get older?
Speaker 5 (17:32):
Do you think as well?
Speaker 6 (17:33):
Because people relationships come and go and friendships sometimes fall
apart and things like that. In terms of do you
think we are are we good at forming friends as
we get older as well?
Speaker 5 (17:44):
Or because there's one.
Speaker 6 (17:45):
Thing to have acquaintances and people you know, Yeah, I mean,
I know, truckloads of people. But in terms of the
number of people I'd count as close friends, I mean,
that would be a reasonably small number.
Speaker 5 (17:55):
But maybe that's is that everyone.
Speaker 4 (17:57):
I think it's pretty normal. I mean, I think when
we look at one of the weird things about social
media is this idea that we have hundreds or even
thousands of friends. It's kind of ridiculous, right, what the
brain research tells us. Actually, interestingly enough, we're not really
capable of having meaningful connections with much more than a
handful of people. And then even wider friends, that upper
number seems to be somewhere around one hundred something, So
(18:18):
you know, when we think about sizes of community, that
makes sense. But just coming back to what you're saying
there is the developmental research tends to suggest that we
tend to get less flexible generally mentally flexible, I mean
as we age, and so that ability to keep working
at being open, engaging with new ideas, learning new skills,
(18:40):
musical instruments, going to singing lessons, anything that can teach
us a new skill later in life is incredibly important
for that mental flexibility, and that includes making new connections
with people.
Speaker 6 (18:50):
Is that because we just aren't exercising those muscles, because
when you're growing up and learning, and you are exercising
those muscles all the time, because that's part of being
young and growing up and learning, excuse me, learning new things.
Whereas there's I might argue, in a very simplistic method manner,
(19:13):
that maybe there's a level of complacency that you get
settled with what your life is. This is what I
do for a job, these are my hobbies, and these
are my friends, and so you actually don't practice those muscles.
It's like, I quote this all the time. It's quite
from Pride and prejudice, where mister Darcy says to miss
Bennety says, I don't converse well with others, and she says, well,
(19:35):
I don't play the piano very well. But I take
that to be my own fault, given that I don't practice. Absolutely,
there is something in that, isn't there That age is
not necessarily sarily the reason. It's what comes along with
age in the way you approach things.
Speaker 4 (19:52):
Yes, although I think that what's also true is that
that makes it sound negative, which so let's talk about
the positive flip side of that, which is that what
tends to happen as we age, as we rely more
on experience as a shortcut to know how to be
in different situations. So that accumulation of experience often makes
us really really good at doing the things we've done before,
(20:14):
and it's hard to do things that are new. But
the personality researchers talk about, this variable called openness to
experience is something you can measure. You can measure it
across life, and it's one of the things that tends
to predict. We can predict that most people's openness to
experience goes down over life, starting from whatever setpoint you
start at when you're younger, of course, so you know,
(20:35):
very flexible people will tend to just be a little
bit less flexible in older age.
Speaker 5 (20:40):
Okay, let's take some more calls. Edward Hello, Oh.
Speaker 12 (20:46):
Hi guys, with learning assiety from a different angle. I'm
an only child and my wife died recently. We were
married for nearly nearly fifty ideas, but we didn't we
didn't any children, so of course now I have no one.
(21:09):
So what I do to climbat out as I walk
and everyone that I meet I talked to briefly, and
I volunteer a lot. About half half a dozen different groups,
and I'd get my social connection from me. But it
(21:32):
would be nice to have a lady friend, just just
someone to have coffee worth, maybe go to the movies,
have the meal together, just just degree are in, just
just a real real friend.
Speaker 5 (21:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 12 (21:48):
But yeah, now that's how I deal with it. I'm
quite happy with my with my own company, but but
it would be nice to have a have a friend.
Speaker 5 (21:58):
How long ago was it that your your wife passed away?
Speaker 12 (22:03):
Two years?
Speaker 5 (22:04):
Okay?
Speaker 6 (22:05):
Yeah, Actually that's an interesting one, doesn't it. As you
get older and relationships break up or you're breathed, yeah,
estepish your relationships.
Speaker 5 (22:14):
What do you reckon?
Speaker 4 (22:15):
Well, let me just say, first of all, I think
you're doing everything right in terms of what the standard
sort of if you like advice is that don't for
one moment underestimate those those small little moments of contact
that you describe when you're out walking and you might
say a low to someone or have a brief on
those are actually really very important. And volunteering is a
(22:37):
great way to get involved and to use our expertise
in our time for the benefit ourselves and others. So
well done for that. The main thing, of course, is
to make sure. If you are looking for a partner,
to make sure. And I say this to anyone of
any age. First thing you've got to do is make
sure you're around people, because that's how we meet. So
keep up the good ones.
Speaker 5 (22:55):
I don't know if you.
Speaker 6 (22:56):
Can go on things like Bumble or Tinder when you
are slightly more advanced years and we don't know what
the age, there's no age. Have you explored dating sort
of in a apps orce sort of sight.
Speaker 12 (23:13):
I was rather hoping that the the also working or
I help out and there might be someone there or
someone might know somebody. Yeah. I think back to the
days we had nieces and nephews and all that kind
of thing, and we usually had Christmas Day at air
(23:36):
place and yet had a dozen people there. It was marvelous.
And now on Christmas Day I go fishing. Oh I
love it nice. Yeah, because Christmas Day just reminds me
maybe what you don't have.
Speaker 5 (23:51):
Maybe someone, maybe one of your nieces and nephews. And listening,
so I heard Uncle Edward on the radio. He's looking
for a date. Let's see what we can do.
Speaker 12 (23:59):
I got a niece in Australia. She's the closest. Yeah, okay,
I've got now so yeah, she's all your way away.
But come here's that. I see you.
Speaker 6 (24:11):
Thanks for that, Hey, Edward, good on you, mate, Thank
you for your call. Actually, you know what, this has
reminded me, and it almost makes me feel a bit
guilty because, in the context of overnight talkback, which I
do as well, it's a massive community and sometimes it'll
probably make me be a bit more cautious about hanging
up quickly on an irritating caller, because you know what,
they are a massive community.
Speaker 4 (24:31):
Yeah, fair enough, I completely agree. I mean, obviously nut
as Clutters Club Sunday night from eleven pm to one
am tune in tonight. We often talk about it as
a community because it is, and I think for a
lot of people, listening to the radio overnight is a
great way to combat loneliness and to feel more connected.
Speaker 6 (24:46):
Actually, well, you know, the example just before we move on,
the example of what an amazing community that was is
you'll recall when Bruce Russell passed away, Because that happened
while you guys I think, were on air, it did,
But the reaction on talkback to Bruce's passing amazing. When
I had to go on and do the first sort
of session of talkback one it was we thought it
(25:07):
was after it because it was in the holiday. I
think it was in holiday. I can't quite remember what
was going on, but I had to go on the
next morning and we opened the lines and we hadn't
opened the lines. We thought no one's calling, and it.
Speaker 5 (25:17):
Was twenty four hours.
Speaker 6 (25:19):
Every single host basically was the massive reaction to it.
And it's just a sense because there was he was
his own community.
Speaker 5 (25:28):
To his callers.
Speaker 6 (25:28):
And it's a good reminder to us, I think sometimes
as opposed to me hitting the flush button irritating caller,
which I will do once every two or three months,
might have to make it once every three or four Anyway,
Look tell you what, we will take a moment. We'll
come back with. Got a bunch of callers. Please hold on, Gloria, Andrew,
(25:49):
and Andrew and I will be back with you in
just a minute. This is the week in collective the
Health News talk said, be talking about loneliness.
Speaker 13 (25:55):
Give us a call, Rush, Oh Fools, Rush that songs
(26:18):
for Edward Fools Rush in We're Angel's Fear to Tread.
Speaker 6 (26:20):
We were talking about that in the last before the
last hour. Actually, krr's looking confused. That's me, is it?
Speaker 4 (26:27):
I was wondering if you were going to tell me
who it was. So thank you for doing.
Speaker 6 (26:31):
That's me with the Buddy Children's Big Band in Hollywood,
going back to that's over twenty years ago. Pretty fun anyway,
the swing version of me. Anyway, Thank you, Tyra. Well,
we'll save with the tim beverage now until it's Christmas
song time and we have flogged the hell out of it.
We got a couple of weeks a peace Gloria, Hello.
Speaker 14 (26:51):
He's hello. The gentleman before who said about going out
and doing voluntary work and there combat the loneliness and everything.
That's a really really good idea, isn't it. Yep? Absolutely,
because this thing, you know, mental health and loneliness and
all that. When you get to know the people, often
(27:11):
it's they're just they've shut themselves off from society and
it's just not good. And you know, when you get
you get out and get involved and give you give
of yourself to help other people, you just get so
much joy out of doing that, whereas if you're just
focusing on yourself all the time, you know, it's all
a bit boring, whereas if you know, you get out
(27:34):
and about and help other people. You know, we all
need each other. That's the whole thing. You can't sit
around the house all day doing nothing. Yeah, so that's
one way of looking at I'm not talking about clinical depression.
That's something that's totally different.
Speaker 4 (27:48):
And I understand and you're absolutely right that sense of
contributing actually makes us feel better.
Speaker 14 (27:54):
It does. We feel part of society, you know, we
feel part of family, you know, Yeah, we feel feel
part of the community. And my other take on this
and as also, we have somebody who really wants to
be our friend toe our spiritual values. That's God, but
we don't want to know him. And that's really sad
(28:15):
because when we know God, we've got somebody else that
we can talk to and he understands us. And often
when we know God, we usually join up in a
church group. Now, I know you're going to get everybody
ringing in and saying to change.
Speaker 4 (28:30):
I hope not.
Speaker 6 (28:31):
I think that's the reason a lot of people go
to church.
Speaker 5 (28:33):
I think it's for the people.
Speaker 4 (28:34):
Absolutely, you raise a really important point and it's one
of the things I thought was interesting. It was included
in the research because I'd be interested as to whether
people who have a faith and a connection to God
actually experienced loneliness in the same way. Of course that
the very practical part is what you're raising that actually,
what it tends to lead to for a lot of
people is actually a sense of community with other human
beings too, which is really important.
Speaker 14 (28:57):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what. Yeah, absolutely, And you know,
you go to a church and there's usually at least
most church have ever at one hundred people, so you've
got a huge that's the other thing. It's interesting because
you've got people from all different walks of life with
all that do all different occupations, and it's incredible you
(29:17):
can know and yeah, so.
Speaker 5 (29:22):
That's good advice.
Speaker 6 (29:23):
And I think actually the other bit of advice, which
I think is quite useful there is when you are
lonely and you're focused on the way you're feeling that
it's maybe sometimes counterintuitive to focus on other people, but
by thinking of doing you know, thinking about connecting or
helping other communities in a community, or doing some volunteer
work and thinking about helping others, you do get that
(29:45):
reward back pretty quickly. I think without focusing on yourself.
That's another times you have saying it. You could probably
put that better for me, couldn't you?
Speaker 4 (29:53):
Come No, I think you're absolutely right. And actually, interestingly,
one of the things again talking about why why are
we talking about this and why is this more becoming
more of a problem. We also know that volunteer voluntary
age and so you know there's a wide range of
charities and organizations that rely on volunteers are struggling to
find people, and that the number of people who are
(30:14):
willing to volunteer has also been steadily decreasing over the
last few years. So again when we think about you
know how to overcome that. If you're out there listening
and you find yourself alone a lot of the time
and not liking it, Google volunteer when whatever city you're
in voluntary agencies, or go and talk to the Citizens
Advice Bureau often in your local library, or see ap
(30:35):
to orgdor in Z and they'll be able to put
you in the right direction.
Speaker 6 (30:38):
Actually that good because it gives you a choice of
things you might be There might be things you think
are could volunteer for that, but that doesn't really excite
me that particular.
Speaker 4 (30:45):
Cause but you'll find something absolutely that will excite and
often then of course people who share some of the values.
Speaker 6 (30:51):
Yeah being go see this is why we get you
in Kyle. You know it's good grist for the mill mate.
Speaker 4 (30:56):
Happy to help.
Speaker 6 (31:01):
Andrew? Are you talking to us Andrew and he's talking
to someone else he needs to work out, Tya, if
you could just go and mention Andrew that we were
quite keen to chat him. I think he's responding to
someone else next to what he's talking about, Yes, while
he's waiting die Hello, Oh hi.
Speaker 8 (31:19):
Guys, Hey, good topic. Look, I think some people forget
for elderly that there could be obstacles like poverty or
ill health yep, where you know, some people could be
they could have a little bit of money but not
enough to go out and actually join in some of
the things that cost a bit of money. And the
(31:39):
other part is with the health factor. Some people might
be mobile but not as mobile to do things. So
for me, I love walking and I'm always talking people
or you know, their little dogs run up to me
and we have a good old chin wag. So you know,
I like to talk and help people out in the
(31:59):
community wherever I can, and I remember back to a
cousin and his wife who were just amazing as they aged.
They still love trampines that do really big walks up
in the hills, and they also did ballroom dancing, which
is yeah, and when you think about it, like they
(32:21):
were that wasn't expenses And I remember they used to,
you know, like they took my mum when she's elderly along,
you know, to a couple of those dances, which were
fantastic because you would know tim with your music, it
is a great spirit lifting, you know, modem for really
(32:44):
lifting people's spirits up and connecting socially.
Speaker 6 (32:48):
Yeah, it's probably one of those things that when you're
busy as a singer and things like that, I might
have taken it for granted until you find yourself, you know,
doing other mind you I've stepped into a pretty social
job with talk back. But yeah, I mean, yeah, that's
music is Music's a great way to connect with peace.
Speaker 8 (33:05):
I think, yeah, just a little thing. One of the
things I did my elderly mum's care and as she
was aging, some things had become more difficult. She has
amazing pianist and a great singer, and so when we're
up in Nelson. We met this lovely lady who ran
(33:25):
this fantastic ukulele group and they used to get together
on Sunday afternoons. So we started going and the first
couple of times are seriously, it was the best fun.
And there was a huge group of people, all different ages,
and even people who would be walking past the hall
or the room where you know, everyone was, they were
(33:47):
just coming and it had that energy which lifted spirits.
So I don't know, maybe we should have more of
that sort of stuff and people, including those who are
feeling a bit lonely.
Speaker 4 (34:00):
Yeah, it's a fantastic suggestion. There's actually quite a bit
of research into and you were like, in terms of
singing together in groups, ukule groups, singing groups, choir as
you know. I mean, obviously that's an aspect of church
for a lot of people, but that's there seems to
be a particularly deep sense of connection when we are
(34:20):
actually in sync with other people, whether it be through
singing or playing musical instruments, which is even sort of
more emotionally satisfying than conversation.
Speaker 6 (34:28):
Actually, I'm going to mention I'm funny enough on the
on the music front. I'm doing a Christmas concert with
the north Shore Brass Band the Holy Trinity on the
seventh of December. And you know, one of the reasons
I'm really looking forward to it is just getting in
front of a bunch of you, an audience, a live
audience with an amazing I mean, it's a community organization
at north Shore Brass and just yeah, a bit of Christmas,
(34:49):
bit of community spirit, all of the above.
Speaker 4 (34:52):
You know, Well, let me just check another helpful suggestion
out there too as well, because the caller mentioned, what
if your health problems, you can't get out of the house.
So there's a service that a lot of people may
not know about called the Saint john On's Caring Caller Service.
And it's both sides, right, So you can volunteer to
do it and you can apply apply to the program
(35:12):
to be part of it, and it's basically a regular
phone call from a person on a regular basis for
those elderly who might struggle to get out of the
house or struggle to connect with people. Eight hundred Saint
John's is the way to get hold of them, and
it's a great service. We've talked about a lot on
the Nuttis Club over the years. It's a very practical
way to both help and to be helped.
Speaker 6 (35:32):
Good stuff, Right, We are going to be back in
just a moment. It's eleven and a half minutes to
five News talks, there'd be and welcome back news talks,
(36:01):
there'd be week and collective. There's no excuse for that song.
I don't mean it's a bad choice, but it's just
not related to our topic. It's just just a good
old banger from time to time built the city on
rock and roll.
Speaker 5 (36:10):
Let's carry on with the cause.
Speaker 6 (36:11):
Talking about learning was Loneliness with psychotherapist and the host
of The Night of Club, corm mac donald Andrew. Hello, Yeah,
I h.
Speaker 3 (36:21):
I apologize I was talking to the next neighbor, but hey, look,
I really have sort of understood the subject for some time,
and the fact that I've lived in quite a few
different countries and as soon as you get there, it's
(36:43):
just alone, you don't know anyone, et cetera. And it's
but I think some of the.
Speaker 7 (36:53):
People on the show already have brought up some really
good ideas. It's just about you know, stepping out a
comfort zone and and like literally being a pain in
your own ass.
Speaker 6 (37:11):
Yes, well, I think we can let your way with
that one, Andrew set you're basically saying you've got to
push yourself out of your comfort zone.
Speaker 7 (37:19):
You've got to really really go, and you don't have
to worry about what other people.
Speaker 3 (37:25):
Think you can. Just you can, because you know you'll
pick and choose, other people will choose you, and then
you'll pick and choose between those people.
Speaker 5 (37:38):
I agree.
Speaker 4 (37:39):
And the capacity to tolerate noble disappointment is really important
in that process, isn't it that? Actually, like I said
earlier in the hour, the important thing was being a
joiner someone who can join and do new things, is
to keep going, keep trying, and make sure no matter
what happens, you just keep going, keep trying the next thing.
Speaker 7 (37:56):
Hundred thanks, really really good advice.
Speaker 6 (38:00):
Yep, thanks Andrew. Actually a lot of people sort of
say I'm not very good at conversation. It's like I
just say, what, just be honest.
Speaker 5 (38:07):
I do.
Speaker 6 (38:08):
Remember this was in a context of updating someone saying
I saw someone once and they thought I really should
go and talk to her, Yeah, and couldn't think of
anything say so he said, actually went up and said,
I've been trying to think of an excuse to come
up and say, lady, and I couldn't.
Speaker 4 (38:21):
So Hi nice, I thought genuine?
Speaker 5 (38:24):
Is it honestep, authentic or where you go?
Speaker 4 (38:27):
The best advice if you're not sure what to say
is just be really interested in the other person.
Speaker 5 (38:32):
Again, very good advice. Julianne.
Speaker 2 (38:34):
Hello, Yeah, Hi Tim, You're my favorite talk show host.
I'm finally ringing in to talk to you. I'm seventy
five and I'm associated with Age Consume and they have
a professional visiting service for one hour a week and
they can pick you up, take you to coffee, take
you to do your shopping, and they give a wonderful service.
(38:54):
And it's twenty dollars to join. And the email is
Age Concern at age co nak dot org dot m
Z and the telephone numbers O nine eight two one
eighty four and you can join up and they'll send
you out all the gin. They'll email you a whole
thing about all the community centers and we're going We're
(39:19):
going to the Chatter two community seats twelve thirty most
days to do an hour of aerobics. And my husband's
in a wheelchair and he loves it.
Speaker 4 (39:29):
Fantastic of the Age concent did great work, and of
course you know that the piece and the media that
we've been talking about was of course Age Concern Research.
So thank you for the time that you've given and
for letting us know about those resources.
Speaker 6 (39:44):
And Juliane, if anyone at Google's age Concern, they'll get
taken to age concern Aukland website pretty quickly, won't they,
even if they can't read.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
They will, and the forms there they can fill out online,
they can pay their twenty dollars online and someone will
contact them.
Speaker 6 (39:58):
The brilliant Hey, thanks so much, Juliane, call again sometimes.
Speaker 13 (40:02):
Thank you.
Speaker 12 (40:03):
I will both and now all the best.
Speaker 6 (40:05):
Gosh, that hour has flown by Kyle. So look, I
hope we've managed to keep your company in an ironic
sense with our talk about loneliness.
Speaker 5 (40:13):
But any sort of final thoughts with thirty seconds to.
Speaker 4 (40:17):
Go, don't be afraid of doing something new. I think
that's a really important thing. Try something new, Try talking
to a new person, and if you feel stuck, try
to think creatively about how you can solve that problem.
And if all else fails, get another brain involved, talk
to someone.
Speaker 6 (40:33):
Try try try again, and people can catch you on
the Nutters Club tonight at what time?
Speaker 4 (40:37):
Eleven pm on here on News Talks, you'd be till
one am.
Speaker 6 (40:40):
Excellent, We'll be back shortly with smart Money news Talks.
Speaker 5 (40:43):
He'd be.
Speaker 1 (40:50):
For more from the weekend collective. Listen live to News Talks.
He'd be weekends from three pm, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talk SED.
Be you longsome tonight? Do you miss.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Are you sorry?
Speaker 3 (00:22):
We drifted?
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Does your mammal misty bray?
Speaker 4 (00:38):
When I kissed you?
Speaker 5 (00:39):
When I kissed you?
Speaker 6 (00:41):
And my producers worried that my MIC's on?
Speaker 5 (00:46):
I know my MIC's on. Tara's deliberately crooning along there.
Speaker 6 (00:51):
Welcome back to the Weekend Collective. If you've missed any
we had an interesting discussion with both David Symbol and
Duncan Webby's Justice spokespersons for Labor on the Treaty Principles bill.
Speaker 5 (01:00):
You can go and check that out.
Speaker 6 (01:01):
Look for the Weekend Collective wherever you wherever you get
your podcast, actually not where the podcast, go to iHeartRadio.
That's the easy way to do it. You can go
to the news Talks'd website as well, and we get
these hours loaded as quickly as we can once they
have concluded. But right now it's time for a change
of change of temperature or a change of subject at
least the health up and my guest is psychotherapist. He's
(01:23):
host of the Nutters Club, is regular guest on my show,
and we're very grateful for that and his name is
Carl McDonald.
Speaker 5 (01:28):
Hello, Kyl, how are you very well? Did you want
to join him with Elvis?
Speaker 6 (01:32):
Then? I mean it's a very soothing way to get
into the r, wasn't it.
Speaker 4 (01:35):
No, I wouldn't want to ruin your ratings singing.
Speaker 7 (01:39):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
I think you know you can get away with it
to be sunfishal.
Speaker 6 (01:44):
I wouldn't try and imitate Elvis really seriously. I just
love the fact that Tyra was protecting pointing at me,
going the red light up, your MIC's on. It's like,
I know, it's right, poor thing. I must stress around.
Speaker 4 (01:57):
So it's quite nice to be sung in.
Speaker 5 (01:59):
So I quite like that.
Speaker 4 (02:00):
It's a nice way to welcome a gaest welcome.
Speaker 5 (02:03):
Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 6 (02:05):
Now we want to talk a little bit about loneliness,
and actually because the study that found fifty nine percent
of kis over the age of sixty five, just on
an age basis, and it felt recently lonely or socially
isolated fifty nine percent of people retirement age basically, and
the question about loneliness, it's been the other word that's
(02:27):
been used to describe it, I think is it's epidemic proportions,
which actually I'm not surprised about.
Speaker 5 (02:37):
I don't think why is that because I think.
Speaker 6 (02:42):
I think that I know, they just think we're living
I'm not sure if we're living as social as lives
as we may have done. Is it just me I'm
reflecting on But I don't know, Maybe I think that maybe,
oh god.
Speaker 5 (02:55):
I don't want to mention COVID, but I.
Speaker 6 (02:57):
Think but I think that was a kind of breakaway
to it which we haven't quite in our social habits.
Just I mean, I think in the number of times
that you might have friends around for dinner and all
that sort stuff. I don't know our sociability, whether that's
got anything to do it, but I'm certainly not surprised
that people as they get older and the expression ever
decreasing circles. Yeah, But firstly, I guess, what's the difference
(03:21):
between being alone and loneliness?
Speaker 8 (03:24):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (03:25):
Great question, because it's important to define some of the
terms that they use in this research. So the first
thing to be really clear about is when we talk
about and there's actually a lot of research and we
can touch on some of the other sort of areas
of concern and what we're sort of seeing globally. But
the first thing to define is that when we talk
about these studies into loneliness, we're talking about the subjective
(03:45):
experience of feeling lonely, right, So what we're not talking
about the negative impact of being alone per se, because
all of us might spend some time alone day to
day or week to week or maybe even you know,
in terms of how we structure our lives, and the
capacity to feel a sense subjectively of feeling lonely obviously
(04:08):
differs from person to person. So that's the first thing
to be clear about. When we talk about these studies,
we're talking about people who would report feeling lonely, and
of course we can define that a little bit further,
which basically means not having enough social contact or not
enough time with other people in their lives.
Speaker 5 (04:25):
What about people who are loners?
Speaker 4 (04:28):
Yeah, well, I mean again, so if your choice is
to be alone and that's not subjectively distressing to you,
in fact that your preferred way of living, then actually
we don't tend to see the same negative effects. Now,
you know, psychotherapists love blurry and we.
Speaker 5 (04:44):
Love the love we lovery.
Speaker 4 (04:46):
We love the blurry bits in between the gray bits
that the nuance. So one of the things that's hard
to tell sometimes is if we spend a lot of
time alone, we can become habituated to not experiencing loneliness.
So one of the things to be really clear about
is that that isolation can become habitual to the point
where actually we feel as if we don't have any option.
(05:10):
And what's really quite hard sometimes is to get people
to actually get in tune with how they feel about
being alone.
Speaker 6 (05:16):
Okay, so is it a problem if people get habituated
to being lonely because if they are used to it
and they don't have a perception that there's anything wrong,
is there anything wrong?
Speaker 4 (05:33):
Yeah, that's the loop, right, Yeah. Yeah, So it is
about being able to be really honest with ourselves and
and sort of you know, ask ourselves the question, am
I just accepting this because I don't think anything else
is possible? And furthermore, are what we're seeing things like,
for instance, depression, perhaps substance abuse, drinking, you know, are
(05:54):
we seeing other things show up that may be a
way to cope with a subjective, subjective feeling of loneliness
because what we note them, and that the research that
we're talking about today is really clear about this is
that actually the health effects of prolonged loneliness are quite
severe potentially, you know, the classic studies sort of compared
it to smoking in terms of its lifestyle impact and
(06:18):
cardiovascular risk stroke risk. Because what we know is that
being lonely, if we want to be with people and
we can't be with people, causes stress, which leads to cortisol,
which is the wholemone of stress, and prolonged cortisol exposure
is really harmful for those lifestyle so called to the
lifestyle factors of physical health.
Speaker 6 (06:37):
And I guess if you are lonely, then maybe you
might not as be motivated to go out and exercise,
which is a way of counteracting stress as well, and
all those sorts of things and doing. And also the
cause is the fact loneliness might mean that you may
be substance abuse or something for or whatever.
Speaker 4 (06:55):
Ye as a way to feel better, which is you
know why most people end up abusing substances. So you
mentioned COVID, I would say that there's another sea.
Speaker 6 (07:02):
Where I felt a it lazy when I did that.
By the way, it's still in the back of it.
Speaker 4 (07:06):
It's a factor. It is a factor that the other
sea word, which is really important is community. So one
of the factors that has led to a breakdown of
community is COVID. But we know that the thanks the
one have been tracking this way for quite some time.
And you know, I think common sense wise, we can
sort of think about this, right, the things like night
classes not being as available, you know, people not having
(07:27):
as much spare time perhaps, you know, two full time
plus incomes in a household, leading to less contact socially
and outside of the sort of the work life. Working
from home of course convenient and pragmatic for a lot
of people, but also isolates us from colleagues. And I
think we can sort of keep listing those things, can't
we When we think about what's actually broken down that
incidental social community, you know, whether it be volunteering or
(07:50):
attending a church or going along to a sports club
and getting involved in things, those things have been eaten away,
I think over the last decade.
Speaker 5 (07:57):
I think that's yeah, I think you've nailed it.
Speaker 6 (07:58):
Actually, what is what I should have said slightly more
eloquently myself? Can you be lonely when you're surrounded by
lots of people.
Speaker 4 (08:06):
Yeah, that's one of the other tricky bits of this. Right,
So often I don't.
Speaker 6 (08:10):
Mean in a crowded street. I mean, for instance, you
might be running an organization and the buck stops with
you and you've got lots of people reporting to and
all that sort of stuff, but essentially isolated maybe or
unsupported or anyway.
Speaker 4 (08:23):
Yeah, so that's again when we get into the nuance
of it, right, I think you can actually potentially be
in an unhappy family environment and feel lonely. So feeling
lonely does not necessarily mean being alone either. That's the
other take on this. A better way in some ways
of defining what we're talking about is do you feel
connected to other human beings?
Speaker 5 (08:42):
Right?
Speaker 4 (08:43):
And connection can be small amounts, so it can be
as simple as, you know, a yarn with someone at
the supermarket or while we're filling the car up with gas,
or it can be more meaningful connections in our life.
And so again, when we think about that breakdown of
community that I think, you know, we've seen in the
western world at least over the last decade, being able
to shop from home, being able to have things delivered,
(09:05):
you know, so much of our life now can be
delivered to our doorstep. That once we get into that
pattern of avoidance of not going out and interacting socially
and with our community, then loneliness can grow as a
byproduct of those choices.
Speaker 6 (09:17):
We would love to hear from you eight hundred and
eighty whether you are lonely or you've actually overcome it,
or what what did you notice? What did you notice
or what triggered you to actually do something about it,
because as Kyle has mentioned, it's something you can become.
I think that the word was habituated too. You get
used to your isolated isolation, then you suddenly think, well,
(09:38):
you know, you know, you get used to your routine
and your pattern and your pattern in your daily life
and looking after yourself. And have you have you broken
that habit or broken that isolation? And how did you
do it? But also how do we keep rebuilding? Because
I think we are gradually establishing our sense of community.
(10:00):
But I do think that that's that it's something that
we have suffered from ever since COVID, the breakdown of community.
Maybe you're not belonging to clubs that you might have
belonged to or organizations and things like that. I'd love
to hear from you if you've got any questions you
want to talk to Kyle about or you want to
ask Kyle, then we'd love to hear from you as well.
Eight hundred and eighty ten eighty text nine to nine
(10:24):
two which I think we might go to the break
now'll be back in just to take give us a call.
Speaker 5 (10:30):
Highs Fob.
Speaker 6 (10:35):
Hello, Well, what the hell is this? This is apparently
it's a song about loneliness? What acorn?
Speaker 5 (10:45):
What is it? Econ? I never heard of it.
Speaker 4 (10:49):
We could give you some helium you can sing along with.
Speaker 9 (10:51):
It here doing a show if we did a show
with just a bunch of helium balloons.
Speaker 6 (11:03):
Anyway, Hello, if you joined us, I hope you're not
feeling so lonely this hour because we keep You're keeping
us company, We're keeping you company. But this is the
health of Umpton Beverage. Car McDonald's my guest. We're talking
about dealing with loneliness, and just before I go to
my first caller, I think that one of the questions
will be worth exploring is how do you avoid loneliness
as you get older? Because fifty nine percent of kiwis
(11:26):
over the age of sixty five feeling lonely or social number.
That's I mean, that's two out of three almost. Yeah, okay,
six out of ten, four out of three out of five.
Speaker 5 (11:35):
There we go.
Speaker 6 (11:36):
That's about as far as I can reduce that good
three fifths.
Speaker 5 (11:39):
There we go.
Speaker 6 (11:41):
Right, let's take some calls, Yannie, Hello, Hello to you both.
Speaker 10 (11:47):
Great song, great song?
Speaker 5 (11:50):
Which one the Elvis one or that last song?
Speaker 10 (11:53):
The last one just now, the Helium one. It's an
awesome song. Should hear the whole thing. It's so great.
It's not all just like that. But anyway, Yeah, I'm
sixty seven, and I see it in a little bit
of a different way because I am a survivor of
Lake Ellis and abuse and kids. So I've chosen to
(12:18):
be alone, live alone because I don't trust people at all.
And so I, yeah, I live alone. I choose my
times when I see people and I don't. I don't
go to cafes, I don't go to nightclubs because I
(12:39):
just can't cope with all the noise and the people
around me. But I have to say that I am
not lonely as such. I quite. I have a great
relationship with myself and I do talk to myself a lot.
But I know that a lot of other people do
that anyway, that sometimes.
Speaker 4 (12:56):
The only way to guarantee intelligent conversation.
Speaker 10 (12:58):
I find, well, that's right, and I sort of just
you know, ask myself things and the and then I answer,
you know, I do a lot of things, like I
walk an hour and a half every morning.
Speaker 6 (13:10):
You know, where does your social connection come from? Do
you bump into people? Do you just not need it?
Speaker 10 (13:17):
I just don't need it, I do, though, I go.
I've just started, actually, which is very weird, started going
to a friend's house for dinner every now and again.
And it's something I haven't done for years. And we
play cards. Oh my god, and and and it's fun.
And I come home and I think, oh my god,
I really enjoyed that.
Speaker 5 (13:38):
Good.
Speaker 10 (13:40):
I wouldn't want to do it all the time.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
I just.
Speaker 4 (13:44):
What you're doing a wonderful job of illustrating. And thanks
so much for calling in and letting us know how
it works for you, because I think what what you're
outlining really clearly is actually, when we look at what
this looks like at an individual level, it's about listening
to ourselves and being honest for ourselves and recognizing that
loneliness is a feeling points out when our life is
(14:05):
of balance, and particularly I think when it comes to
as we move through life, that need might change. I mean,
you know, most of us know that, for instance, teenagers
and young people are generally to you thrash a stereotype
generally more social, right, and that's partly a life and
stage thing. But what we also know is that actually
(14:25):
that need to be social to have a wide group
of friends changes for all of us over life and
is different for each individual. So listening to yourself and
connecting with a friend and starting to be just that
little bit more connected to people.
Speaker 5 (14:37):
Sounds like a great plan.
Speaker 6 (14:38):
Thanks very much, thanks to you call.
Speaker 5 (14:39):
You and niece really appreciate it.
Speaker 4 (14:41):
Jan, Hello, Hi there.
Speaker 11 (14:45):
I have three points. First one, some people are introverted
and love their own company, don't like being in crowds
or a socializing, so they're very happy on their own
prefer it. And the extraverted people absolutely have to socialize
(15:05):
the ways they feel unhappy and disconnected, et cetera. The
second point, more people should be able to have pets
which keep them company, and places like race homes and
villages and elderly people on their own it should be facilitated.
(15:28):
Instead of all those dogs in Auckland, eleven thousand of
them being killed by the council, they should have all
been rehomed to good family.
Speaker 4 (15:38):
I agree with you about pets. They're incredibly important when
it comes to feeling a sense of connection.
Speaker 5 (15:43):
What's your third one?
Speaker 11 (15:44):
Jan the third one? Since I've been here in long
than new some communities around here's sound probably even in
the world. If you weren't born here and grew up here,
you're not accepted. That's it. You could be here for
ten years and you still won't be accepted. Yes, the
(16:05):
first thing they ask you were you born here? And
if you're not, that's it. You can't shut out from
any sort of social connection, say snub you and very snobby.
And that's how I found it. And a lot of
people well.
Speaker 6 (16:25):
Actually yeah, I mean I think, yeah, I think I
think there would be people who feel that if they've
come from a different country that it might take it
might actually sometimes be a bit of a struggle.
Speaker 4 (16:35):
Oh, it's hard to re establishing a network when you
when you're from when you immigrate into a different country.
But I think you know, particularly when we come we
come back to the research around the fact that this
is being recognized as a problem for those as they
move into the later part of life. I think one
of the really important things is to make sure that
you maintain the capacity to be what I call a joiner.
(16:58):
Make sure you're someone who's a joiner. And what I
mean by that is that you're willing to join things,
and that includes being able to try new things. So
I think I say that because if you have the
unfortunate experience of feeling like you're not welcome in a
particular group or community or activity, don't give up. Keep
trying because I think I'm sure that that happens. I'm
sure that that you know that to the nature of
(17:19):
social groups and people is that they sometimes can be
a bit rough, not very welcoming. But keep trying. I
think it's really important.
Speaker 5 (17:27):
Actually, is.
Speaker 6 (17:30):
It harder to form friendships as you get older?
Speaker 5 (17:32):
Do you think as well?
Speaker 6 (17:33):
Because people relationships come and go and friendships sometimes fall
apart and things like that. In terms of do you
think we are are we good at forming friends as
we get older as well?
Speaker 5 (17:44):
Or because there's one.
Speaker 6 (17:45):
Thing to have acquaintances and people you know, Yeah, I mean,
I know, truckloads of people. But in terms of the
number of people I'd count as close friends, I mean,
that would be a reasonably small number.
Speaker 5 (17:55):
But maybe that's is that everyone.
Speaker 4 (17:57):
I think it's pretty normal. I mean, I think when
we look at one of the weird things about social
media is this idea that we have hundreds or even
thousands of friends. It's kind of ridiculous, right, what the
brain research tells us. Actually, interestingly enough, we're not really
capable of having meaningful connections with much more than a
handful of people. And then even wider friends, that upper
number seems to be somewhere around one hundred something, So
(18:18):
you know, when we think about sizes of community, that
makes sense. But just coming back to what you're saying
there is the developmental research tends to suggest that we
tend to get less flexible generally mentally flexible, I mean
as we age, and so that ability to keep working
at being open, engaging with new ideas, learning new skills,
(18:40):
musical instruments, going to singing lessons, anything that can teach
us a new skill later in life is incredibly important
for that mental flexibility, and that includes making new connections
with people.
Speaker 6 (18:50):
Is that because we just aren't exercising those muscles, because
when you're growing up and learning, and you are exercising
those muscles all the time, because that's part of being
young and growing up and learning, excuse me, learning new things.
Whereas there's I might argue, in a very simplistic method manner,
(19:13):
that maybe there's a level of complacency that you get
settled with what your life is. This is what I
do for a job, these are my hobbies, and these
are my friends, and so you actually don't practice those muscles.
It's like, I quote this all the time. It's quite
from Pride and prejudice, where mister Darcy says to miss
Bennety says, I don't converse well with others, and she says, well,
(19:35):
I don't play the piano very well. But I take
that to be my own fault, given that I don't practice. Absolutely,
there is something in that, isn't there That age is
not necessarily sarily the reason. It's what comes along with
age in the way you approach things.
Speaker 4 (19:52):
Yes, although I think that what's also true is that
that makes it sound negative, which so let's talk about
the positive flip side of that, which is that what
tends to happen as we age, as we rely more
on experience as a shortcut to know how to be
in different situations. So that accumulation of experience often makes
us really really good at doing the things we've done before,
(20:14):
and it's hard to do things that are new. But
the personality researchers talk about, this variable called openness to
experience is something you can measure. You can measure it
across life, and it's one of the things that tends
to predict. We can predict that most people's openness to
experience goes down over life, starting from whatever setpoint you
start at when you're younger, of course, so you know,
(20:35):
very flexible people will tend to just be a little
bit less flexible in older age.
Speaker 5 (20:40):
Okay, let's take some more calls. Edward Hello, Oh.
Speaker 12 (20:46):
Hi guys, with learning assiety from a different angle. I'm
an only child and my wife died recently. We were
married for nearly nearly fifty ideas, but we didn't we
didn't any children, so of course now I have no one.
(21:09):
So what I do to climbat out as I walk
and everyone that I meet I talked to briefly, and
I volunteer a lot. About half half a dozen different groups,
and I'd get my social connection from me. But it
(21:32):
would be nice to have a lady friend, just just
someone to have coffee worth, maybe go to the movies,
have the meal together, just just degree are in, just
just a real real friend.
Speaker 5 (21:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 12 (21:48):
But yeah, now that's how I deal with it. I'm
quite happy with my with my own company, but but
it would be nice to have a have a friend.
Speaker 5 (21:58):
How long ago was it that your your wife passed away?
Speaker 12 (22:03):
Two years?
Speaker 5 (22:04):
Okay?
Speaker 6 (22:05):
Yeah, Actually that's an interesting one, doesn't it. As you
get older and relationships break up or you're breathed, yeah,
estepish your relationships.
Speaker 5 (22:14):
What do you reckon?
Speaker 4 (22:15):
Well, let me just say, first of all, I think
you're doing everything right in terms of what the standard
sort of if you like advice is that don't for
one moment underestimate those those small little moments of contact
that you describe when you're out walking and you might
say a low to someone or have a brief on
those are actually really very important. And volunteering is a
(22:37):
great way to get involved and to use our expertise
in our time for the benefit ourselves and others. So
well done for that. The main thing, of course, is
to make sure. If you are looking for a partner,
to make sure. And I say this to anyone of
any age. First thing you've got to do is make
sure you're around people, because that's how we meet. So
keep up the good ones.
Speaker 5 (22:55):
I don't know if you.
Speaker 6 (22:56):
Can go on things like Bumble or Tinder when you
are slightly more advanced years and we don't know what
the age, there's no age. Have you explored dating sort
of in a apps orce sort of sight.
Speaker 12 (23:13):
I was rather hoping that the the also working or
I help out and there might be someone there or
someone might know somebody. Yeah. I think back to the
days we had nieces and nephews and all that kind
of thing, and we usually had Christmas Day at air
(23:36):
place and yet had a dozen people there. It was marvelous.
And now on Christmas Day I go fishing. Oh I
love it nice. Yeah, because Christmas Day just reminds me
maybe what you don't have.
Speaker 5 (23:51):
Maybe someone, maybe one of your nieces and nephews. And listening,
so I heard Uncle Edward on the radio. He's looking
for a date. Let's see what we can do.
Speaker 12 (23:59):
I got a niece in Australia. She's the closest. Yeah, okay,
I've got now so yeah, she's all your way away.
But come here's that. I see you.
Speaker 6 (24:11):
Thanks for that, Hey, Edward, good on you, mate, Thank
you for your call. Actually, you know what, this has
reminded me, and it almost makes me feel a bit
guilty because, in the context of overnight talkback, which I
do as well, it's a massive community and sometimes it'll
probably make me be a bit more cautious about hanging
up quickly on an irritating caller, because you know what,
they are a massive community.
Speaker 4 (24:31):
Yeah, fair enough, I completely agree. I mean, obviously nut
as Clutters Club Sunday night from eleven pm to one
am tune in tonight. We often talk about it as
a community because it is, and I think for a
lot of people, listening to the radio overnight is a
great way to combat loneliness and to feel more connected.
Speaker 6 (24:46):
Actually, well, you know, the example just before we move on,
the example of what an amazing community that was is
you'll recall when Bruce Russell passed away, Because that happened
while you guys I think, were on air, it did,
But the reaction on talkback to Bruce's passing amazing. When
I had to go on and do the first sort
of session of talkback one it was we thought it
(25:07):
was after it because it was in the holiday. I
think it was in holiday. I can't quite remember what
was going on, but I had to go on the
next morning and we opened the lines and we hadn't
opened the lines. We thought no one's calling, and it.
Speaker 5 (25:17):
Was twenty four hours.
Speaker 6 (25:19):
Every single host basically was the massive reaction to it.
And it's just a sense because there was he was
his own community.
Speaker 5 (25:28):
To his callers.
Speaker 6 (25:28):
And it's a good reminder to us, I think sometimes
as opposed to me hitting the flush button irritating caller,
which I will do once every two or three months,
might have to make it once every three or four Anyway,
Look tell you what, we will take a moment. We'll
come back with. Got a bunch of callers. Please hold on, Gloria, Andrew,
(25:49):
and Andrew and I will be back with you in
just a minute. This is the week in collective the
Health News talk said, be talking about loneliness.
Speaker 13 (25:55):
Give us a call, Rush, Oh Fools, Rush that songs
(26:18):
for Edward Fools Rush in We're Angel's Fear to Tread.
Speaker 6 (26:20):
We were talking about that in the last before the
last hour. Actually, krr's looking confused. That's me, is it?
Speaker 4 (26:27):
I was wondering if you were going to tell me
who it was. So thank you for doing.
Speaker 6 (26:31):
That's me with the Buddy Children's Big Band in Hollywood,
going back to that's over twenty years ago. Pretty fun anyway,
the swing version of me. Anyway, Thank you, Tyra. Well,
we'll save with the tim beverage now until it's Christmas
song time and we have flogged the hell out of it.
We got a couple of weeks a peace Gloria, Hello.
Speaker 14 (26:51):
He's hello. The gentleman before who said about going out
and doing voluntary work and there combat the loneliness and everything.
That's a really really good idea, isn't it. Yep? Absolutely,
because this thing, you know, mental health and loneliness and
all that. When you get to know the people, often
(27:11):
it's they're just they've shut themselves off from society and
it's just not good. And you know, when you get
you get out and get involved and give you give
of yourself to help other people, you just get so
much joy out of doing that, whereas if you're just
focusing on yourself all the time, you know, it's all
a bit boring, whereas if you know, you get out
(27:34):
and about and help other people. You know, we all
need each other. That's the whole thing. You can't sit
around the house all day doing nothing. Yeah, so that's
one way of looking at I'm not talking about clinical depression.
That's something that's totally different.
Speaker 4 (27:48):
And I understand and you're absolutely right that sense of
contributing actually makes us feel better.
Speaker 14 (27:54):
It does. We feel part of society, you know, we
feel part of family, you know, Yeah, we feel feel
part of the community. And my other take on this
and as also, we have somebody who really wants to
be our friend toe our spiritual values. That's God, but
we don't want to know him. And that's really sad
(28:15):
because when we know God, we've got somebody else that
we can talk to and he understands us. And often
when we know God, we usually join up in a
church group. Now, I know you're going to get everybody
ringing in and saying to change.
Speaker 4 (28:30):
I hope not.
Speaker 6 (28:31):
I think that's the reason a lot of people go
to church.
Speaker 5 (28:33):
I think it's for the people.
Speaker 4 (28:34):
Absolutely, you raise a really important point and it's one
of the things I thought was interesting. It was included
in the research because I'd be interested as to whether
people who have a faith and a connection to God
actually experienced loneliness in the same way. Of course that
the very practical part is what you're raising that actually,
what it tends to lead to for a lot of
people is actually a sense of community with other human
beings too, which is really important.
Speaker 14 (28:57):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what. Yeah, absolutely, And you know,
you go to a church and there's usually at least
most church have ever at one hundred people, so you've
got a huge that's the other thing. It's interesting because
you've got people from all different walks of life with
all that do all different occupations, and it's incredible you
(29:17):
can know and yeah, so.
Speaker 5 (29:22):
That's good advice.
Speaker 6 (29:23):
And I think actually the other bit of advice, which
I think is quite useful there is when you are
lonely and you're focused on the way you're feeling that
it's maybe sometimes counterintuitive to focus on other people, but
by thinking of doing you know, thinking about connecting or
helping other communities in a community, or doing some volunteer
work and thinking about helping others, you do get that
(29:45):
reward back pretty quickly. I think without focusing on yourself.
That's another times you have saying it. You could probably
put that better for me, couldn't you?
Speaker 4 (29:53):
Come No, I think you're absolutely right. And actually, interestingly,
one of the things again talking about why why are
we talking about this and why is this more becoming
more of a problem. We also know that volunteer voluntary
age and so you know there's a wide range of
charities and organizations that rely on volunteers are struggling to
find people, and that the number of people who are
(30:14):
willing to volunteer has also been steadily decreasing over the
last few years. So again when we think about you
know how to overcome that. If you're out there listening
and you find yourself alone a lot of the time
and not liking it, Google volunteer when whatever city you're
in voluntary agencies, or go and talk to the Citizens
Advice Bureau often in your local library, or see ap
(30:35):
to orgdor in Z and they'll be able to put
you in the right direction.
Speaker 6 (30:38):
Actually that good because it gives you a choice of
things you might be There might be things you think
are could volunteer for that, but that doesn't really excite
me that particular.
Speaker 4 (30:45):
Cause but you'll find something absolutely that will excite and
often then of course people who share some of the values.
Speaker 6 (30:51):
Yeah being go see this is why we get you
in Kyle. You know it's good grist for the mill mate.
Speaker 4 (30:56):
Happy to help.
Speaker 6 (31:01):
Andrew? Are you talking to us Andrew and he's talking
to someone else he needs to work out, Tya, if
you could just go and mention Andrew that we were
quite keen to chat him. I think he's responding to
someone else next to what he's talking about, Yes, while
he's waiting die Hello, Oh hi.
Speaker 8 (31:19):
Guys, Hey, good topic. Look, I think some people forget
for elderly that there could be obstacles like poverty or
ill health yep, where you know, some people could be
they could have a little bit of money but not
enough to go out and actually join in some of
the things that cost a bit of money. And the
(31:39):
other part is with the health factor. Some people might
be mobile but not as mobile to do things. So
for me, I love walking and I'm always talking people
or you know, their little dogs run up to me
and we have a good old chin wag. So you know,
I like to talk and help people out in the
(31:59):
community wherever I can, and I remember back to a
cousin and his wife who were just amazing as they aged.
They still love trampines that do really big walks up
in the hills, and they also did ballroom dancing, which
is yeah, and when you think about it, like they
(32:21):
were that wasn't expenses And I remember they used to,
you know, like they took my mum when she's elderly along,
you know, to a couple of those dances, which were
fantastic because you would know tim with your music, it
is a great spirit lifting, you know, modem for really
(32:44):
lifting people's spirits up and connecting socially.
Speaker 6 (32:48):
Yeah, it's probably one of those things that when you're
busy as a singer and things like that, I might
have taken it for granted until you find yourself, you know,
doing other mind you I've stepped into a pretty social
job with talk back. But yeah, I mean, yeah, that's
music is Music's a great way to connect with peace.
Speaker 8 (33:05):
I think, yeah, just a little thing. One of the
things I did my elderly mum's care and as she
was aging, some things had become more difficult. She has
amazing pianist and a great singer, and so when we're
up in Nelson. We met this lovely lady who ran
(33:25):
this fantastic ukulele group and they used to get together
on Sunday afternoons. So we started going and the first
couple of times are seriously, it was the best fun.
And there was a huge group of people, all different ages,
and even people who would be walking past the hall
or the room where you know, everyone was, they were
(33:47):
just coming and it had that energy which lifted spirits.
So I don't know, maybe we should have more of
that sort of stuff and people, including those who are
feeling a bit lonely.
Speaker 4 (34:00):
Yeah, it's a fantastic suggestion. There's actually quite a bit
of research into and you were like, in terms of
singing together in groups, ukule groups, singing groups, choir as
you know. I mean, obviously that's an aspect of church
for a lot of people, but that's there seems to
be a particularly deep sense of connection when we are
(34:20):
actually in sync with other people, whether it be through
singing or playing musical instruments, which is even sort of
more emotionally satisfying than conversation.
Speaker 6 (34:28):
Actually, I'm going to mention I'm funny enough on the
on the music front. I'm doing a Christmas concert with
the north Shore Brass Band the Holy Trinity on the
seventh of December. And you know, one of the reasons
I'm really looking forward to it is just getting in
front of a bunch of you, an audience, a live
audience with an amazing I mean, it's a community organization
at north Shore Brass and just yeah, a bit of Christmas,
(34:49):
bit of community spirit, all of the above.
Speaker 4 (34:52):
You know, Well, let me just check another helpful suggestion
out there too as well, because the caller mentioned, what
if your health problems, you can't get out of the house.
So there's a service that a lot of people may
not know about called the Saint john On's Caring Caller Service.
And it's both sides, right, So you can volunteer to
do it and you can apply apply to the program
(35:12):
to be part of it, and it's basically a regular
phone call from a person on a regular basis for
those elderly who might struggle to get out of the
house or struggle to connect with people. Eight hundred Saint
John's is the way to get hold of them, and
it's a great service. We've talked about a lot on
the Nuttis Club over the years. It's a very practical
way to both help and to be helped.
Speaker 6 (35:32):
Good stuff, Right, We are going to be back in
just a moment. It's eleven and a half minutes to
five News talks, there'd be and welcome back news talks,
(36:01):
there'd be week and collective. There's no excuse for that song.
I don't mean it's a bad choice, but it's just
not related to our topic. It's just just a good
old banger from time to time built the city on
rock and roll.
Speaker 5 (36:10):
Let's carry on with the cause.
Speaker 6 (36:11):
Talking about learning was Loneliness with psychotherapist and the host
of The Night of Club, corm mac donald Andrew. Hello, Yeah,
I h.
Speaker 3 (36:21):
I apologize I was talking to the next neighbor, but hey, look,
I really have sort of understood the subject for some time,
and the fact that I've lived in quite a few
different countries and as soon as you get there, it's
(36:43):
just alone, you don't know anyone, et cetera. And it's
but I think some of the.
Speaker 7 (36:53):
People on the show already have brought up some really
good ideas. It's just about you know, stepping out a
comfort zone and and like literally being a pain in
your own ass.
Speaker 6 (37:11):
Yes, well, I think we can let your way with
that one, Andrew set you're basically saying you've got to
push yourself out of your comfort zone.
Speaker 7 (37:19):
You've got to really really go, and you don't have
to worry about what other people.
Speaker 3 (37:25):
Think you can. Just you can, because you know you'll
pick and choose, other people will choose you, and then
you'll pick and choose between those people.
Speaker 5 (37:38):
I agree.
Speaker 4 (37:39):
And the capacity to tolerate noble disappointment is really important
in that process, isn't it that? Actually, like I said
earlier in the hour, the important thing was being a
joiner someone who can join and do new things, is
to keep going, keep trying, and make sure no matter
what happens, you just keep going, keep trying the next thing.
Speaker 7 (37:56):
Hundred thanks, really really good advice.
Speaker 6 (38:00):
Yep, thanks Andrew. Actually a lot of people sort of
say I'm not very good at conversation. It's like I
just say, what, just be honest.
Speaker 5 (38:07):
I do.
Speaker 6 (38:08):
Remember this was in a context of updating someone saying
I saw someone once and they thought I really should
go and talk to her, Yeah, and couldn't think of
anything say so he said, actually went up and said,
I've been trying to think of an excuse to come
up and say, lady, and I couldn't.
Speaker 4 (38:21):
So Hi nice, I thought genuine?
Speaker 5 (38:24):
Is it honestep, authentic or where you go?
Speaker 4 (38:27):
The best advice if you're not sure what to say
is just be really interested in the other person.
Speaker 5 (38:32):
Again, very good advice. Julianne.
Speaker 2 (38:34):
Hello, Yeah, Hi Tim, You're my favorite talk show host.
I'm finally ringing in to talk to you. I'm seventy
five and I'm associated with Age Consume and they have
a professional visiting service for one hour a week and
they can pick you up, take you to coffee, take
you to do your shopping, and they give a wonderful service.
(38:54):
And it's twenty dollars to join. And the email is
Age Concern at age co nak dot org dot m
Z and the telephone numbers O nine eight two one
eighty four and you can join up and they'll send
you out all the gin. They'll email you a whole
thing about all the community centers and we're going We're
(39:19):
going to the Chatter two community seats twelve thirty most
days to do an hour of aerobics. And my husband's
in a wheelchair and he loves it.
Speaker 4 (39:29):
Fantastic of the Age concent did great work, and of
course you know that the piece and the media that
we've been talking about was of course Age Concern Research.
So thank you for the time that you've given and
for letting us know about those resources.
Speaker 6 (39:44):
And Juliane, if anyone at Google's age Concern, they'll get
taken to age concern Aukland website pretty quickly, won't they,
even if they can't read.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
They will, and the forms there they can fill out online,
they can pay their twenty dollars online and someone will
contact them.
Speaker 6 (39:58):
The brilliant Hey, thanks so much, Juliane, call again sometimes.
Speaker 13 (40:02):
Thank you.
Speaker 12 (40:03):
I will both and now all the best.
Speaker 6 (40:05):
Gosh, that hour has flown by Kyle. So look, I
hope we've managed to keep your company in an ironic
sense with our talk about loneliness.
Speaker 5 (40:13):
But any sort of final thoughts with thirty seconds to.
Speaker 4 (40:17):
Go, don't be afraid of doing something new. I think
that's a really important thing. Try something new, Try talking
to a new person, and if you feel stuck, try
to think creatively about how you can solve that problem.
And if all else fails, get another brain involved, talk
to someone.
Speaker 6 (40:33):
Try try try again, and people can catch you on
the Nutters Club tonight at what time?
Speaker 4 (40:37):
Eleven pm on here on News Talks, you'd be till
one am.
Speaker 6 (40:40):
Excellent, We'll be back shortly with smart Money news Talks.
Speaker 5 (40:43):
He'd be.
Speaker 1 (40:50):
For more from the weekend collective. Listen live to News Talks.
He'd be weekends from three pm, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio
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