July 21, 2024 • 40 mins
Sometimes five stages are just not enough to describe the process of grief.
Psychotherapist Kyle MacDonald joins Tim Beveridge on The Weekend Collective to discuss how grief can look to different people.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
It'd be.
Speaker 3 (00:12):
Nice you love me?
Speaker 4 (00:15):
I know this, see like this so you can see
the Damnise episode, lost Jell, so you can see the sunnisepisode.
I can't relate to desperation.
Speaker 5 (00:37):
I cusit.
Speaker 4 (00:39):
Our own vacation and I've got this one boy.
Speaker 6 (00:44):
Anyone stop going when I went this way?
Speaker 7 (00:49):
Yes, welcome back to the Weekend Collective on Tim Beverage.
If you did miss our politics, I think we had
a couple of fascinating interviews there with with our correspondent.
First who is Dan Mitchison about the just the United States?
What's going on? They're getting a bit of information because anyway,
because nothing, I'm not going to add any further comment.
And also Marhie Drysdale and Taran is Well he's going
(01:10):
to be their new mayor and interesting to men chat
with Mahi about how he's going to go about things
and his prospects for improving the city and all that
and excellent. So have you missed it, Go and check
out our podcast on News Talks. He'd be or iHeartRadio.
Look for the Weekend Collective right now. Though it is
the Health hup, we want your calls. Oh, eight hundred
and eighty ten eighty in text on nine two nine two.
And my guest needs no introduction otherwise other than his name.
(01:33):
And his name is Carl McDonald. Although if you haven't
ever heard of Kyle then you obviously just tuned into
news Talks. He'd be about five minutes ago. And he
is a psycho therapist, and he's here in studio and
he is also hosts The Nutters Club, which is on
Monday mornings or Sunday evenings from eleven pm to one am. Correct, correct,
(01:56):
because I suddenly thought two for two for two anyway,
how are you? I'm good, Yeah, excellent. You've just had
a nice holiday.
Speaker 8 (02:05):
I actually I haven't been on the radio for a
couple of weeks because I've been away with the family
in Sydney.
Speaker 7 (02:09):
How outrageous, rather lovely. Actually, I've literally just got back
from holiday myself, and normally I bore the listeners senseless
with not senseless, but I do mention what I've been
up to. But I do want to just give a
shout out to mid Canterbury White Tachi District in the
South Island because we changed our destination we went for
a winter holidays and just a magical part of the
(02:32):
country and we stayed at the o House ski lodge
where you sit with different families at dinner. The staff
are amazing. It's the real and it's not a communal
sort of like kumbay our atmosphere. It's just lots of
great people mixing and mingling, having a drink, having something
to eat, and the beautiful scenery of Lake Ohaw on
the skifields and love God, it makes me patriotic for
the South Island and I'm in Aucklander. You went to Sydney,
(02:55):
you traitor?
Speaker 8 (02:57):
I did why cheered for the all blacks?
Speaker 7 (02:59):
Okay?
Speaker 8 (03:01):
And actually it was lovely where there was warman after
my kids were swimming at one point which I wasn't
whereabouts Bullye Beach is just like south of Sydney.
Speaker 7 (03:09):
Did you feel that? What did you just take your
toes and to go oh no, thanks, Yeah, it's not cold.
Speaker 8 (03:13):
Yeah, but you know, kids are kids. They were keen
so good.
Speaker 7 (03:16):
And just before we get into our topic, I you know,
I remember watching that you'd see people. I don't know
whether it be on television, whether it's people frolicking around
the sea and people who could just walk into the
water and sort of start swimming. And I used to wonder,
you can't do that in New Zealand because you've done
that moment to go.
Speaker 8 (03:31):
Oh, you're going to dive in.
Speaker 7 (03:33):
Until I went to the Gold Coast and it's like
bath water, right, it was so warm.
Speaker 8 (03:38):
I'm sure it's like that in Sydney in summer too,
but Sydney not at this time.
Speaker 7 (03:42):
Well, now we have to do it one eighty or
three sixty or whatever, because we're going to talk about grief.
We are, yeah, and because people talking about the five
stages of grief. But first, and look, if you are
struggling with grief or you've had a journey to deal
with grief, and actually who hasn't, to be honest, unless
(04:02):
you're about three years old and life's just a of
sunshine until your first disappointment. But if you'd like to
share or have a chat, or we've got a question
for car because you're struggling with grief, then we'd love
to hear from your eight hundred and eighty ten eighty.
But the first question is everyone thinks grief someone's died.
Grief not quite the full definition, really is it? What
(04:24):
is grief?
Speaker 5 (04:25):
Yeah?
Speaker 8 (04:25):
No, I mean, grief's really any loss. So if we
think about relationship loss, if we think about potentially you know,
like a job loss, and you know, redundancies, any significant
change which requires an adjustment which we don't have control over,
which when you think about it, is pretty broad, right.
But when we go back to the idea of grief
(04:47):
being that the loss of somebody important, you know, it
is probably something that you say that a lot of
people have heard about. But the five stages of grief
is a researcher called Elizabeth Koubler Ross, and it's often
referred to and still referred to today, even though she
was writing in like the late sixties.
Speaker 7 (05:03):
I've got a prediction coming up. Now you're going to
that's bollocks.
Speaker 8 (05:06):
Well not entirely, not entirely, but let's just say what
it is first before I tear it about. So the
fire stage is a denial anger bargaining, which is the
idea that you're still sort of in a sort of
denial state and are trying to kind of reconcile that,
you know, you know, if something you're trying to figure
out how it happened, and bargaining with reality is what
(05:28):
they're reflecting a bargaining This is a depression, so period
of low mood, acceptance being the last stage. And I
don't think it's complete bollocks. I think that there's a
lot in that. But I think one of the problems
with that model, in particularly the way it's been presented
over the years to people in grief, is it's presented
as something that you're sort of supposed to move through,
like video game levels.
Speaker 7 (05:48):
Or something like what's wrong with me, I'm not in
the bargaining stage or.
Speaker 8 (05:51):
Exactly, so if you're angry, then bargaining's next that sort
of thing, whereas the reality is we're much more complicated
and messy than that, right. But I think that the
nugget of wisdom is what it recognizes is that actually
grief is a process that takes some time. And we
can have all the maps in the world, but just
like any map, you actually have to use the map
(06:12):
to navigate the territory, and the territory can be messy
and complicated and emotional, and the crux of it for
me is actually the fifth stage, which is acceptance.
Speaker 7 (06:21):
Yeah, I actually wonder if and as again, I always
come out from a lay person's point of view, which
means I can ask the dumb questions. Of course. Yeah,
but I wonder if I don't know how to say this,
but bereavement, Yeah, the grief of bereavement of a death
(06:43):
of a loved person or animal or compet or whatever.
I don't and I don't mean to trivialize it, but
I wonder if they are a safer form of grief
in a way, because when we experience bereavement, we know
there's every part of your being knows that you are
on a journey and that you are and that you
(07:03):
will get advice at the times. I wonder that you will.
You will, You'll get through it, hopefully. And I wonder
if there are the insidious forms of grief? Are the
dangerous ones that you don't actually realize your grievings, for instance,
are changing your job a job loss where you you
don't actually realize that the intense emotions that you're feeling
(07:24):
are grief. So you know what I mean. It's like
if when my mum died, I knew what I was up.
You don't know what you're up for, but you do,
and you know you're going to come through.
Speaker 8 (07:34):
It's sort of obviously yeah, yeah.
Speaker 7 (07:36):
And there's a whole process and everyone has their own
personal relationship with it. But it's a sort of safe
form of grief where you know that hopefully you're going
to come through it. Where that I would wonder if
there are forms of grief where in not recognizing that
that's what you're going through, there's a problem.
Speaker 8 (07:53):
Well, like most of these chats, I think we're going
to start talking about some nuance, right because one of
the big problems with grief is we talk about griefs
if it's one thing, and even if we just think
about death. I think there are kinds of grief in
my experience which seem very natural and in some ways
much easier to navigate. So if we think about, for instance,
(08:14):
the death of an elderly parent or a grandparent, there's
a naturalness to that, right.
Speaker 7 (08:20):
And except there is an acceptance I guess.
Speaker 8 (08:22):
We know that that you know, on average, our parents
and grandparents are going to die before us. In some ways,
we kind of hope that they do because that's the
natural way of life.
Speaker 7 (08:30):
Right. Actually we don't kind of hope they do that.
Speaker 8 (08:33):
They would probably hope that they do too, because as
a parent we flip that around the other way and
recognize it. Actually, some people talk about the loss of
a child as being the most difficult kind of grief
that one could ever.
Speaker 7 (08:43):
Encounter, and I agreed, because it's.
Speaker 8 (08:46):
Unnatural, right, And then we think about the different ways
in which people can also die. So, I mean, you know,
often people who are grieving a terminal patient, someone who's
died over a long period of time, you know they're going,
often does a lot of their grieving before the actual
person departs, and they talk about a sense of relief
or a sense of the grief actually ending when the
person passes, as opposed to sudden death, where actually you're
(09:06):
often playing catch up and trying to figure out what's happened.
And then, of course, you know, obviously in my field,
we talk about the complications of losing someone to suicide,
which is really complicated because we never really know why.
Speaker 7 (09:20):
You know, whether other.
Speaker 8 (09:21):
Kinds of death or losses that the why is often
obvious or at least the coroner can figure it out
for us, right, But with suicide it's much more complicated.
So actually, that word complicated, I think is actually what
you're touching on is that we recognize clinically that there
is straightforward grief, straightforward a natural process often doesn't need
any kind of clinical intervention at all. People move through
(09:42):
that with support of friends and family. And we have
more complicated forms of grief, which are often about the
length of time that people take to move through that process,
and sometimes people will get stuck. And so with complicated grief,
we're sort of looking if someone's still really intensely in
the distress after about a year or so, then we
start to think that actually, something more complicated is going on,
(10:02):
and often that can look like a depression.
Speaker 7 (10:05):
Actually just reminded me. It's a trivial point, but in
a way, it's something I've noticed a few times when
somebody has lost a grandparent or an elderly parent and
people say, oh, and there's a comment like, oh, so
they were eighty five. I think to the bereaved, it's like, yeah,
it still sucks, because people sort of have this sort
(10:25):
of thing well okay at least, but what they're really
recognizing is that I guess no one's that shock. It's
the natural order of thing. But sometimes I think it
can feel to people like you're not acknowledging that that
it doesn't matter if the person was ninety or was ill.
It's grief is grief, and it's intense, and it's it's
a powerful emotion.
Speaker 8 (10:46):
It is and actually again special case with parents. Often,
you know, what we find in my job is that
when people have had difficult or conflicted or perhaps even
at times abusive relationships with parents, where the relationship has
been very dysfunctional, grief is actually more complicated in those circumstances.
It's one of those things that often seems like a
(11:06):
bit of a paradox, like you could kind of imagine
if you've had an awful relationship with family, that there
might be some sort of relief that they're gone right.
But actually what's often the case is it's much more
complicated to deal with because all of the issues about
the past traumas and struggles and difficulties often come up
at that moment of grief, and that's the time sometimes
when people find themselves heading towards an office like mine.
Speaker 7 (11:28):
Actually, I guess that would be the next question. And
by the way, if there's anything that you need to
talk to someone about, even if you don't want to
call up now, and I always might like to make
a point of this. The service that is one seven
three seven, either text or you call it if you
need someone to talk to and if anything we talk
about today, as I don't like to use the word
triggered because it's such, but if anything evokes a response
(11:51):
on you where you really feel you need to talk
to someone, please do text or call that number. If
you want to talk about your struggle with grief on
air and you want like to call and have a
chat with Kyle, then we'd love you to do so.
On eight hundred and eighty ten eighty where was I distract.
Speaker 8 (12:05):
Parts, Yes, but also you were talking about jobs and changes,
and it's good that you raise that because, as you
were sort of hinting at, any adjustment or loss can
trigger grief. And that's the thing about grief, and one
of the other versions of what we think of as
complicated grief is often one grief can trigger past griefs
that haven't been sort of adequately processed, so you know,
(12:27):
for instance, a redundancy might bring up past losses or
job difficulties, or may trigger you know, past experiences of
loss that may not seem obviously connected but are all
connected by the fact that there've been a loss or
adjustment we've been forced to make and that's been beyond
our control.
Speaker 7 (12:43):
Okay, look, we want to take your calls on eight
hundred and eighty ten eighty text nine two nine two.
Actually just one thing as well, since we were talking
about those five stages, and I've completely forgotten that that's
what it was about, because I've probably touted that to people.
Of course, you're in the denial, you know, denial, acceptance,
all that sort of stuff. Is there a particular process
(13:05):
to grief that we can rely on?
Speaker 8 (13:07):
Yeah, it sucks, and I don't say that lightly. I think,
you know, one of the things is I think we
just have to accept that there is a process, and
I think that the I think we're getting better, but
I think largely in the West we're really bad at this.
If you think about the cliched process with grief in
the West, you get two or three days bereavement, leave
off work, regardless of who it is who's died, and
(13:29):
you go to a funeral for a few hours, and
you get pissed and then you carry on with life. Right,
that's kind of a pretty terrible way to go about
the whole thing, really, and when you look at say,
for instance, traditional Mildy Tonguey or other indigenous cultures around
the world, or non Western cultures at least, often there's
much more of a process of really leaning into the experience,
you know, open caskets, engaging more with the person's body,
(13:53):
being together in a community maybe for twenty four to
forty eight or hours or longer, and actually really experiencing
those feelings. And that, I think is what acceptance looks like,
actually taking the time home in space to not only
feel the feelings, but actually invite them and welcome them,
but hopefully to do that in a way that's connected
with other people.
Speaker 7 (14:12):
Although if you again there's no rules to it either.
If there's an aspect of grieving, for instance, you know,
you mentioned the open casket things, and some people are
into that and other people like I don't need to.
But I think you can probably trust your instincts on
that stuff, can you.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
Yeah?
Speaker 8 (14:24):
Absolutely, And it is true that some people don't need to.
I think when we start to think about individually how
do we how we might choose to navigate these things,
I think it's always about thinking about what do I
need to do, to actually lean into the experience of
acknowledging the loss and accepting that this has actually happened,
rather than fighting with reality.
Speaker 7 (14:41):
Hey, we want to take your cause on this one
hundred and eighty ten to eighty text nine to nine
to two and this is this is the week in collective.
My guest is Calm McDonald. If you don't recognize as
mallifluous tones, then we'll be back in just a moment.
It's twenty one past four news talks he'd beat. Did
you know that one in six New Zealanders experience hearing
(15:03):
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(15:47):
call on eight hundred forty five forty five forty two.
That's eight hundred forty five forty five forty two.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
Tim Beverage on the weekend Connective call Oh eight hundred
eighty ten eighty hues talk ZBI.
Speaker 7 (16:01):
Yes, welcome back to the show. My guest is carlik Don.
We're talking about the dealing with grief, I guess, and
maybe the five stages are not quite the five stages
and what the process is and how you deal with
and all that sort of stuff. Taking your calls one
eighteen eighty fill good afternoon, No good? Thanks? Hey doing okay?
Speaker 9 (16:21):
Good good, not too bad?
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Thank you.
Speaker 10 (16:24):
Hello Carl here as well. He Look, yeah, grief.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
I've been waiting for to talk on this one because
I'm interested in that, because I'm going through that, trying
to deal with that myself at the moment, because I've
gone through in the last six years, I've gone through
a number of things, losing both my parents, uncles and aunts,
(16:49):
even my cat, losing my job through alcohol. So I
have alcohol issues as well as I'm topped on with
the and I've been seeing a clinical psychologists who's very
good to help me try and understand why I am
struggling with the depression which I've had for a number
(17:11):
of years, even before these events took place that I
didn't even realize which was probably which was probably masked
by either drink. Because one of the things that I've
learned is that I don't handle emotion very well. I
can't really face emotion very well, you know. So one
of the things I do everything I can to run
(17:33):
away to avoid it rather than facing it and let
the tears flow and just deal with it, you know.
So part of that was where the alcohol coming over
the years, because that's been an ongaring issue. But like
I say, in the end, it cost me in my job.
So that's why I was interesting You're saying about forms
of grief not only having with your interpersonal, very interpersonal
(17:57):
things like losing your mother and father or your grandparent.
Of that another thing is I think that makes it hard.
So as I is just thinking that I'm an only
child as well, so I have no grandparents left on
both sides, but more importantly, I have no sisters or
brothers to call on either, you know, to share the
burden with and that sort of thing. So you feel
(18:18):
very yeah, even though you.
Speaker 8 (18:20):
Raise a really important point about the value of connection
and how important it is to be able to have
people to share that burden with, whether it be a
clinical psychologists or you know, siblings hopefully if you get along.
But actually central to grief, as you highlight, is that
ability to accept, which of course is the opposite of avoidance.
(18:41):
So you know, often we think about acceptance and avoidances
existing on different ends of a continuum, and actually avoidance
is kind of the enemy with grief. Which is not
to say that we need to sit around all day,
every day for months on and sort of you know,
sobbing about the loss, but it is recognizing that, you know,
there might be times when you're just having a shower,
or driving a work or sitting there trying to think
of a you know, a thoughtful work and you find
(19:04):
yourself a bit weeper, You're a bit sad, and that's
that's completely normal. So hey, thanks very much for you.
Speaker 7 (19:10):
It's actually funny. I wouldn't have mentioned this at the time,
but when my when my mum died, and you know,
you come back to it because you know, you get
on with things like yeah, life carries on and something.
It was back when Tim Rocksborough and I were doing
the show together and he something came up in the
show and I just mentioned my mum in passing and
I had to leave the studio. It just hit me
like a sledgehammer. I completely fell apart. I just to
(19:31):
switch my mic off. I don't think it would have
happened if I hadn't, if there hadn't been another host,
because because you could, yeah, I guess, because I could.
It was almost and I think it gave Tim a
bit of a surprise, of course, but he knew what
it was about. But but it is it just whammo
from nowhere. It's like I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm not okay, Yeah, anyway,
just sort of share that with you. There's lots of
(19:53):
course to get through. Let's keep it going. Julie Hello, Hello.
Speaker 3 (19:57):
Hello you guys.
Speaker 7 (19:58):
Good Thanks, Julie good.
Speaker 5 (20:00):
Hey.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
I've got a grief that goes back a long, long
way and some of it it was healthy related. Some
of it was losing my marriage, that was losing my
children and most recently losing my son in a road accident,
and my family's fallen apart. Like nobody nobody talks to me,
(20:28):
nobody reaches out to me or begs messages or calls.
And it's mostly due to my losing my health and
becoming quite well mentally and physically right. And yeah, so
in my grieving for my son, I was given no choices.
I was not given any say into how I would
(20:51):
breath or how has the fear in all or anything.
And now I'm alone, And yeah, I'm grieving on my own.
Speaker 8 (21:00):
It's really tough to do that on your Also, sounds
like you've had a huge amount of grief in your life.
Speaker 3 (21:05):
Yeah, those right back to the child. But yeah, and
I also lost the baby, you know, several years ago.
Speaker 6 (21:14):
Oh yeah, any support?
Speaker 8 (21:16):
Are you talking to someone about this accumulation of all
these things that have happened in particularly your son's grief.
Speaker 3 (21:23):
No, I'm not. I was to have a disease where
I don't make cortisole, So I find it very difficult
to process right grief because of not making cortisole. You know,
my whole place and flight. It's just a mess, my
hope to a trink, a mess. So no, I'm not
getting any help. And yeah, I have been suicidal.
Speaker 8 (21:47):
Have you had any contact with the one seven three
seven service over the recent sort of couple of years.
Speaker 3 (21:54):
I've wrote a couple of times when I felt suicidal
but I just hung up.
Speaker 8 (22:00):
Yeah, I'd really encourage you to give it another go,
and you don't have to wait until you're feeling, you know,
worried about yourself in that way. It's actually okay just
to use them as a just just to use them
as a counseling service, and some people do that on
a pretty regular basis. And they actually have services where
you can stay connected with the same person over a
period of time as well. So i'd really encourage you
to give that another go because it is a way
(22:22):
to access counseling and support that's free of charge. And
also you can do it from your home. You don't
even have to leave the house.
Speaker 7 (22:27):
I think something that cropped up to with me with Julie.
Thanks for your call, Julie, Yeah, thank.
Speaker 8 (22:32):
You and all the best with all of that, And
it's really tough.
Speaker 7 (22:36):
Is I sometimes wonder whether we also there's another side
to it about whether people are intimidated by someone's loss
and grief. You know, sometimes we're scared to, we're scared
to we don't know what to say. I had a
friend of mine. I'm not going to go into details,
but he had a really tragic, really tragic event in
(22:59):
his family that was so awful that I didn't know
what to say. But it was back in the days
before email, and I actually wrote to them and said
in the end, I thought I have to and I
just write and said, I wrote, I said, I don't
know what to say, but I'm just thinking of you
and perfect yeah, because I didn't know what to But
I think that that's the thing that anyone who's genuinely grieving,
(23:23):
don't be afraid of their grief. You've just got to
just reach.
Speaker 8 (23:25):
Out, just tell them that unfortunately some people are yeah, right,
and you're right. And it was also in my mind
as Julie was talking. I don't want to make any
assumptions about her life, but generally speaking, it is the
case sometimes and people who have had big losses will
talk about this that sometimes the worst time is actually
sort of a month or two later.
Speaker 7 (23:43):
Yeah, it's not the time when you think, let's drop
off a meal in the first few days.
Speaker 8 (23:47):
It's like people know how to do something right. We
Kiwis are quite good doers. You know. We can cook
a meal, we can fix a car, we can do
those kinds of things, you know, pick the kids up
from school for you, We can help you out. But
two or three months later, when you're still wanting to
process and talk about it, and everyone else is kind
of going, oh, but I am sure it. Yeah, but
much emotion for me very much. I'll stay away from that. Unfortunately,
(24:07):
that does happen really important. What you said, Tim that Actually,
if you're out there and you're listening and you've got
someone in your life who is struggling and you don't
know what to say, just say that.
Speaker 7 (24:18):
So I don't know what to say, I.
Speaker 8 (24:19):
Don't know what to say. I've never experienced this. But
if you need anything, I'm here and if you want
to talk, and it.
Speaker 7 (24:24):
Ties into that other. It's just about the power of connection.
Just absolutely just connect with people. It doesn't and there's
no well, there are probably wrong things to say, but
there's if you've come at it from a no right
thing to say, that's right, okay, let's take some more calls. Craig, Hello, definitely,
how's it going good? Thanks?
Speaker 9 (24:44):
And I've rung you in the past. I've had problems
with low version. I've talked to you and a few
other different times over times. But in my lifetime I've
had a couple of redundancies where you basically get made redundant.
And I worked for Data Cable and the Whiteouts. That's
kind of like a very small niche market, and I
found that when you get more redundant, you normally get
calls from other companies or who'd you're available, can come
(25:06):
work for us. So that's been quite good in that way.
But I was in a relationship with it lag for
quite a few years, got engaged, and then I had
the work accident thing where it became visually impaired, and
she decided it was too hard and left. And I
found that really hard to struggle with. This thing I
found really hard was you give me your friends, saying
to you you're committed relationships, going, oh, it's not too
(25:28):
bad being by your own, by yourself for a while,
it was quite good, and all sort of stuff relationships
are and everything, and I found that actually made it
worse because and then they'd say, oh, come over our
place for dinner. So you go over there and there
be a couple of couples and they're all all cuddling stuff,
and you're on the couch by yourself and thinking, I
don't really need this is just way in my face
type of thing. And I found that for me what
(25:49):
worked the most was wasn't talking to anyone anything there
and all that. It was actually just spending time by
myself and getting used to the fact and all that
because I used to when I was able to drive,
used to go to the beach quite often and go
fleshing or just walking on the beach and look at
the sand and stuff like that, just to taking press
from work. And because I can't do it now, I've
had it really hard as that was my outlet. I
(26:11):
hope to even remove all the photos in the house
of here because it's quit too hard. But ironically, nowadays
we're really good friends. We got back to just being
really good friends, like where we're in a relationship and
we hang out occasionally and do stuff, and I put
a photos back up and that sort of stuff and
all my friends going, but she left you in her chain.
I go, yeah, but that was probably her way of
dealing with the situation that I was going through. And
(26:33):
everyone deals with things differently, so it was just.
Speaker 8 (26:35):
Yeah, they sure do. And I really like what you're
saying about recognizing that what you need is to be
able to have some time to yourself in some space
to think. It's also a really good example of that's
not the wrong way to say it of what often
happens with strong emotions in relationships is what I call
unintentional invalidation, which is a bit of a mouthful, right,
but it's basically any version of oh you'll be right, mate,
(26:58):
get over it at more fish than the sea. Well,
because actually what it says is you should just stop
feeling what you're feeling. That's the solution here, Just stop
having those feelings. And you know what, that never works.
Speaker 7 (27:09):
It never works.
Speaker 8 (27:10):
It's hard though, But actually what we need to do
is lean into the feelings and say, well, of course
you're upset, man.
Speaker 7 (27:15):
How I've got a text here actually giving some tips,
not what what not to say. I won't read them
all that, but basically, don't offer people's solutions. Yeah, just
listen and say it sucks. Yeah, it's awful. And somebody
says it sucks, saying well, it's not so bad, I'd say, yeah,
I think it must suck or whatever. I don't know,
you know, clumsily expressed by me. Then, But anyway, let's
(27:36):
carry on. Actually tell you what. We'll take a quick break,
come back in just a moment. Oh, eight hundred eighty
ten eighty is the number text nine to nine. It's
twenty two minutes to five on news talk, said bysing
by myself Mesel. Welcome back to the Weakend Collective. I'm
(28:07):
Tim Beverage. My guest is coment. Don't we talk about
dealing with grief in the stage Well, no, we're not
talking about the stages a grief, of course, we're sort
of we've pushed that sort of five stages thing to
one side. There's no right process or not. We're taking
your calls about how you've dealt with there are any
questions you've got Manisha, Hello, Hi, how.
Speaker 9 (28:23):
Are you good?
Speaker 7 (28:24):
Thanks? How are you doing good?
Speaker 3 (28:26):
Good?
Speaker 6 (28:26):
Thank you?
Speaker 7 (28:28):
Right with Carlin? Where you go?
Speaker 6 (28:31):
Yeah, So basically I just wanted to tell that, you know,
while we're talking about grief things. I really want to
say that bringing friends and families together at that time
and getting their support really helps. Like I really want
to talk about something about Hindu Indian culture. So how
we process is like I recently or recently, like you
(28:52):
call the nineteen I lost my father and we were
all griefing, and you know, we have a process where
for thirteen days old the families stay together. Ye, so
everyone comes together and they stay together. So in thirteen days,
you know, it helps a lot to process the whole
griffing period. And we do have a lot of rituals
(29:15):
where we we kind of like you know, slowly shows everyone,
like the priests come and they show that you know,
how the whole thing happen and how the soul is
gone and everything. And in that process everyone comes to
me and you kind of you know, share your story
of laws and then you cry again and again. And
(29:36):
when you have all that kind of support of families
and friends in thirteen days, you kind of feel little
a little better.
Speaker 7 (29:43):
And then we have a problem the paravitual, I guess,
isn't it.
Speaker 6 (29:49):
Yeah, So it's like it's like you know where we
have like Okay, for example, on day one, they do
the you know, cremation, and then after that we get
told like, okay, now if we do this, they'll get
peace and everyth and after that, like we have. After
one month, we get together again, Okay, check on the
(30:11):
person and the family. Yeah, and then we here for
after three months also, and we call it as a ritual,
so it's like kind of compulsory for everyone to be there.
Speaker 8 (30:21):
Yeah, it sounds like a wonderful and you're doing nothing
but reinforcing my idea that actually we're really rubbish at
this in the West because that you know, not wanting
to minimize that the spiritual and cultural elements and the rituals.
But actually it's connection, right, It's being together and making
sure that no one's going through that process on their own,
and actually spending a couple of weeks focusing on it.
(30:42):
Is the acceptance part, right, actually getting our brain and
our mind adjusted to the fact that the person is
no longer around. So thanks very much for your call.
Speaker 7 (30:50):
I remember a friend of mine going to his partner
was from a different culture and they have quite a
long long way of saying goodbye, and he said, gosh,
they've got the right idea, because by the end of it.
You're absolutely begging to get back to normality.
Speaker 8 (31:02):
Well, yeah, you say long way of saying goodbye.
Speaker 7 (31:04):
Perhaps it's the right well length of time, yeah, quite possibly,
good one. Right, let's carry on. Thanks for your culmination,
really appreciate it. Richard.
Speaker 10 (31:14):
Hello, oh Tim, how are you doing? Yeah, yeah, I've
spoken to you for a little while. Actually, it's good
to hear your voice too. I've in a different cause.
It's all right for me to talk about it, but
I've had a different approach to death, of course, and grief.
Being in the funeral trade for over forty five years,
(31:35):
I was pleased to get out. Believe me, I was
thrilled of it. To get out. Forty five years is
far too long in the game. But the ironical thing
is what you've been saying right along there is being
quite correct. And that previous caller from the I presume
she was from the Indian culture. But the ritual of togetherness,
(31:57):
whether with people or with your higher authority guide, of course,
it's the only way. There's no other way. I have
found in the Western culture, especially Western cultures, it seems
to be more profound than grief levels. Because sorry, ninety
percent of death really, at the end of the day,
(32:17):
is of a natural cause of the amy funerals.
Speaker 8 (32:20):
I do when you say, when you say more profound
in the ways you mean, the more emotion, more distress
type response, Yeah.
Speaker 10 (32:27):
It's yeah, he struck the words out of my mouth. Actually, there,
overall the Western culture, it hasn't got the family links,
and it hasn't got the spiritual links compared to African, Asian,
South American cultures, et cetera. Islamic culture that thegetherness is
(32:50):
the key and the other there's no doubts about it
if you've got a faith, if you've got a faith
believing that this will is not the end all, because
death has got no respect whatsoever for age, whether you're
one or one hundred and one, has got no respect whatsoever.
Once your time is up, your time is up. As
soon as you're born, you're there to die, simple, clear
(33:11):
cut is that. But on a personal level, there you
go the human deaths. So I've gone through many of
my own relatives, mothers, brothers, and you know who've done
their funerals. That doesn't afflict me. But I tell you
what does afflict me with grief? Animal deaths, and yeah,
animal deaths are I can't no, I will not tolerate.
I can't tolerate anything cruelty to an animal and or
(33:32):
death of an animal. And an interesting thing is that
before I do go, I think the news is coming.
The funny thing is is that the Nazis were exactly
the same, no empathy towards human death. Yeah, but animal debts.
You touch an animal and that was your lot. It's
quite it's quite a complicated, and I don't have an
answer for it.
Speaker 8 (33:52):
Thanks Richard, Thanks for your insights forty five years in
the trade.
Speaker 10 (33:55):
Eh.
Speaker 7 (33:55):
Yeah, Actually I was thinking with animal deaths with it's
they're almost like a training ground for kids with grief,
aren't they.
Speaker 8 (34:02):
Yeah, Yeah, they absolutely are. I mean it's one of
the i's for having pets actually is that they die.
Speaker 7 (34:08):
So sounds we're giving you a cat, billy, because it's
going to be a good loning experience for you when
at some point.
Speaker 8 (34:17):
This is going to die and it's going to sit you.
Speaker 3 (34:19):
No.
Speaker 8 (34:19):
But actually it's one of those natural things, isn't it.
So kids learn about grief, whether it be a goldfish,
whether it be a cat or a dog, because often
you know, particularly in you know with our health system
now and the way we look after ourselves in the
twenty fifth century. Often kids can go many years about
experiencing any deaths of anyone close to them, and it
is about resilience too.
Speaker 7 (34:38):
Yeah, okay, we're going to take some more calls. In
just a moment. It's twelve minutes to five. News Talks
dB did a Fullwoody crazy Yes, welcome back to the
Weekend Collective. I'm to beverage. Car McDonald as psychotherapist is
(34:59):
my guest talking about grief. We don't have too long
to go. It's at nine minutes to five, but it's
just as a heads up to anyone he's about to
talk to us, just in case we run short of time. Sarah, Hello, Hello.
Speaker 5 (35:13):
How are you good?
Speaker 7 (35:14):
Thanks? How are you doing?
Speaker 6 (35:15):
Cool? Yeah?
Speaker 5 (35:16):
Look, I've had three major deaths in the last few years,
one of them being my husband, who died very young
and ghastly, disgustly experience out of the blue, and I'm
still profoundly affected by it, and who was quite well known,
who was actually Arabian ouncer, funny enough, and a lot
(35:37):
of people came to his funeral and they just couldn't cope,
so basically I never saw a lot of people. Again,
it's a very isolating time, and I understand that, but
at the time I had to sort of go for
all these greets because I knew a lot of people.
And one of my questioning to you is, I don't now,
as I said here, because I've recently said my mother die.
Speaker 6 (36:01):
That sort of opened it up.
Speaker 5 (36:03):
I don't believe some people connect to you ever get
over it because I don't believe I can. Yeah.
Speaker 8 (36:08):
Well, I mean, I'm really sorry for your losses here,
And it's a really great question. I sort of agree
with you in the sense that I think a really
unhelpful idea which can float around in particularly people talking
to people who've lost someone, is you know that sense
of why over it yet? You know it's been two years,
it's been a lot, Yeah, exactly, And so I think
(36:29):
the answer to that question is like, well, yeah, in
a way, you never will get over it. What I
think the experience of grief is is that the length
of time between the periods when you feel really overwhelmed
by the distress, hopefully over time should lengthen and that
over time the feelings should soften. But I think when
it comes to partners or children or close family members,
I think we always carry them in our heart. For me,
(36:51):
the measure as a clinician, if you like, if we
want to sort of draw a line in the sand,
is to say, hopefully the feelings aren't intense enough that
they're getting in the way of your day to day functioning.
And if they are, then that's a pretty good sign
that it might be a good idea to talk to
someone to get that grief process moving again, because to me,
that's a sign that things might get a bit stuck.
So if you find that, for instance, it's harder to
(37:12):
socialize or connect with friends because of those feelings, and
that's a this is a we sign, it might be
an idea to talk to someone. But I do agree.
I think actually we always carry people in our heart
and our memories. Even if we do move on, have
other relationships and move on with their life, they're always
kind of there.
Speaker 5 (37:28):
I think it's the Western thing that the guy said,
like where like people just say some really awful things actually,
or you shouldn't be over at how long has it been?
And you know, it's like you just want people to say, hey,
I'm here. You know, those things are not helpful at all,
because when there's been great love, you know, that's grief
(37:51):
to me. And you know, my husband and I he
adored me like I adored him, and his parting was
he was young, and it was just so awful and
out of the blue. And I still get quite worn
to buy that time.
Speaker 9 (38:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (38:08):
Thanks, thanks for your call, Sarah, and all the best. Now,
I think if what would be the signs that you have,
what would be the signals that you might need to
speak to someone as opposed to just the normal process
of the sadness and grief that.
Speaker 8 (38:25):
You well, well, I was reminded of this quote the
other day when I was watching something about therapy, and
a really good place to start is if you're wondering
whether or not you're depressed or you need to talk
to a therapist, just make sure you're not surrounded by
assholes first, because actually a really good place to check
is have you got a supportive network, right? Or have
(38:47):
you got a network who's telling you that you should
be over it and get over it and we don't
want to hear about it anymore. Having said that, if
you find that, like I said, it's getting in the way.
If the feelings are so intense that they're actually stopping
you from living your life. Or if you feel like
over time things aren't shifting and moving and changing, then
it might be a good idea to.
Speaker 7 (39:06):
Talk to someone.
Speaker 8 (39:06):
And yes, there are a grief specialists, but I genuinely
believe any therapists and psychologists can help you with grief
because it's so universal.
Speaker 7 (39:12):
Actually, quite a few texts just about animals, and one
in particular says our dog died of kidney cants for
a month ago, age ten years, my husband and I
still consumed with grief. We also feel incredibly guilty as
we didn't grieve as much for our fathers, who were
both in the eighties when they died. It's a real rollercoaster.
There's something about animals, and that's the thing. If you
feel loss, don't worry about whether you feel it more
(39:35):
because it was your favorite poodle versus you know, your
grandmother or something.
Speaker 8 (39:39):
Grief it is what it is, a completely agree the
feelings of the feelings. And you know, over life grief
to compounds, so it might be that for us, for
one person, their pet has actually trigger a whole bunch
of other feelings they haven't yet had the chance to feel.
Speaker 7 (39:52):
Somebody else has said said here, that's one of the
reasons I never had a pet, because I was worried
about it when it died. It's like I do, wish
you'd just have maybe enjoy those twelve years of joy
of having a wonderful pet. Kind of love, isn't it? Yeah?
That is indeed. Gosh. Look and if anyone needs anyone
to talk to again, if it's something you really want
to speak to someone, you don't know where to reach
this call or text one seven three seven, or you
(40:13):
can look for specialist psycho therapists help, I mean, how
people go about that. We've got about ten seconds for
you to tell.
Speaker 8 (40:19):
Us that talkingworks. Dot CODO ended as a pretty good
place to start. National Directory of Counselors and Therapists.
Speaker 7 (40:25):
Excellent, Carl, Great to see you. Great, you had a
good holiday. Catch you again soon, pleasure. Cheers mate. We'll
be back shortly with smart Money. This is News Talk
S EDB.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
For more from the weekend collective, listen live to News
Talks EDB weekends from three pm, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
It'd be.
Speaker 3 (00:12):
Nice you love me?
Speaker 4 (00:15):
I know this, see like this so you can see
the Damnise episode, lost Jell, so you can see the sunnisepisode.
I can't relate to desperation.
Speaker 5 (00:37):
I cusit.
Speaker 4 (00:39):
Our own vacation and I've got this one boy.
Speaker 6 (00:44):
Anyone stop going when I went this way?
Speaker 7 (00:49):
Yes, welcome back to the Weekend Collective on Tim Beverage.
If you did miss our politics, I think we had
a couple of fascinating interviews there with with our correspondent.
First who is Dan Mitchison about the just the United States?
What's going on? They're getting a bit of information because anyway,
because nothing, I'm not going to add any further comment.
And also Marhie Drysdale and Taran is Well he's going
(01:10):
to be their new mayor and interesting to men chat
with Mahi about how he's going to go about things
and his prospects for improving the city and all that
and excellent. So have you missed it, Go and check
out our podcast on News Talks. He'd be or iHeartRadio.
Look for the Weekend Collective right now. Though it is
the Health hup, we want your calls. Oh, eight hundred
and eighty ten eighty in text on nine two nine two.
And my guest needs no introduction otherwise other than his name.
(01:33):
And his name is Carl McDonald. Although if you haven't
ever heard of Kyle then you obviously just tuned into
news Talks. He'd be about five minutes ago. And he
is a psycho therapist, and he's here in studio and
he is also hosts The Nutters Club, which is on
Monday mornings or Sunday evenings from eleven pm to one am. Correct, correct,
(01:56):
because I suddenly thought two for two for two anyway,
how are you? I'm good, Yeah, excellent. You've just had
a nice holiday.
Speaker 8 (02:05):
I actually I haven't been on the radio for a
couple of weeks because I've been away with the family
in Sydney.
Speaker 7 (02:09):
How outrageous, rather lovely. Actually, I've literally just got back
from holiday myself, and normally I bore the listeners senseless
with not senseless, but I do mention what I've been
up to. But I do want to just give a
shout out to mid Canterbury White Tachi District in the
South Island because we changed our destination we went for
a winter holidays and just a magical part of the
(02:32):
country and we stayed at the o House ski lodge
where you sit with different families at dinner. The staff
are amazing. It's the real and it's not a communal
sort of like kumbay our atmosphere. It's just lots of
great people mixing and mingling, having a drink, having something
to eat, and the beautiful scenery of Lake Ohaw on
the skifields and love God, it makes me patriotic for
the South Island and I'm in Aucklander. You went to Sydney,
(02:55):
you traitor?
Speaker 8 (02:57):
I did why cheered for the all blacks?
Speaker 7 (02:59):
Okay?
Speaker 8 (03:01):
And actually it was lovely where there was warman after
my kids were swimming at one point which I wasn't
whereabouts Bullye Beach is just like south of Sydney.
Speaker 7 (03:09):
Did you feel that? What did you just take your
toes and to go oh no, thanks, Yeah, it's not cold.
Speaker 8 (03:13):
Yeah, but you know, kids are kids. They were keen
so good.
Speaker 7 (03:16):
And just before we get into our topic, I you know,
I remember watching that you'd see people. I don't know
whether it be on television, whether it's people frolicking around
the sea and people who could just walk into the
water and sort of start swimming. And I used to wonder,
you can't do that in New Zealand because you've done
that moment to go.
Speaker 8 (03:31):
Oh, you're going to dive in.
Speaker 7 (03:33):
Until I went to the Gold Coast and it's like
bath water, right, it was so warm.
Speaker 8 (03:38):
I'm sure it's like that in Sydney in summer too,
but Sydney not at this time.
Speaker 7 (03:42):
Well, now we have to do it one eighty or
three sixty or whatever, because we're going to talk about grief.
We are, yeah, and because people talking about the five
stages of grief. But first, and look, if you are
struggling with grief or you've had a journey to deal
with grief, and actually who hasn't, to be honest, unless
(04:02):
you're about three years old and life's just a of
sunshine until your first disappointment. But if you'd like to
share or have a chat, or we've got a question
for car because you're struggling with grief, then we'd love
to hear from your eight hundred and eighty ten eighty.
But the first question is everyone thinks grief someone's died.
Grief not quite the full definition, really is it? What
(04:24):
is grief?
Speaker 5 (04:25):
Yeah?
Speaker 8 (04:25):
No, I mean, grief's really any loss. So if we
think about relationship loss, if we think about potentially you know,
like a job loss, and you know, redundancies, any significant
change which requires an adjustment which we don't have control over,
which when you think about it, is pretty broad, right.
But when we go back to the idea of grief
(04:47):
being that the loss of somebody important, you know, it
is probably something that you say that a lot of
people have heard about. But the five stages of grief
is a researcher called Elizabeth Koubler Ross, and it's often
referred to and still referred to today, even though she
was writing in like the late sixties.
Speaker 7 (05:03):
I've got a prediction coming up. Now you're going to
that's bollocks.
Speaker 8 (05:06):
Well not entirely, not entirely, but let's just say what
it is first before I tear it about. So the
fire stage is a denial anger bargaining, which is the
idea that you're still sort of in a sort of
denial state and are trying to kind of reconcile that,
you know, you know, if something you're trying to figure
out how it happened, and bargaining with reality is what
(05:28):
they're reflecting a bargaining This is a depression, so period
of low mood, acceptance being the last stage. And I
don't think it's complete bollocks. I think that there's a
lot in that. But I think one of the problems
with that model, in particularly the way it's been presented
over the years to people in grief, is it's presented
as something that you're sort of supposed to move through,
like video game levels.
Speaker 7 (05:48):
Or something like what's wrong with me, I'm not in
the bargaining stage or.
Speaker 8 (05:51):
Exactly, so if you're angry, then bargaining's next that sort
of thing, whereas the reality is we're much more complicated
and messy than that, right. But I think that the
nugget of wisdom is what it recognizes is that actually
grief is a process that takes some time. And we
can have all the maps in the world, but just
like any map, you actually have to use the map
(06:12):
to navigate the territory, and the territory can be messy
and complicated and emotional, and the crux of it for
me is actually the fifth stage, which is acceptance.
Speaker 7 (06:21):
Yeah, I actually wonder if and as again, I always
come out from a lay person's point of view, which
means I can ask the dumb questions. Of course. Yeah,
but I wonder if I don't know how to say this,
but bereavement, Yeah, the grief of bereavement of a death
(06:43):
of a loved person or animal or compet or whatever.
I don't and I don't mean to trivialize it, but
I wonder if they are a safer form of grief
in a way, because when we experience bereavement, we know
there's every part of your being knows that you are
on a journey and that you are and that you
(07:03):
will get advice at the times. I wonder that you will.
You will, You'll get through it, hopefully. And I wonder
if there are the insidious forms of grief? Are the
dangerous ones that you don't actually realize your grievings, for instance,
are changing your job a job loss where you you
don't actually realize that the intense emotions that you're feeling
(07:24):
are grief. So you know what I mean. It's like
if when my mum died, I knew what I was up.
You don't know what you're up for, but you do,
and you know you're going to come through.
Speaker 8 (07:34):
It's sort of obviously yeah, yeah.
Speaker 7 (07:36):
And there's a whole process and everyone has their own
personal relationship with it. But it's a sort of safe
form of grief where you know that hopefully you're going
to come through it. Where that I would wonder if
there are forms of grief where in not recognizing that
that's what you're going through, there's a problem.
Speaker 8 (07:53):
Well, like most of these chats, I think we're going
to start talking about some nuance, right because one of
the big problems with grief is we talk about griefs
if it's one thing, and even if we just think
about death. I think there are kinds of grief in
my experience which seem very natural and in some ways
much easier to navigate. So if we think about, for instance,
(08:14):
the death of an elderly parent or a grandparent, there's
a naturalness to that, right.
Speaker 7 (08:20):
And except there is an acceptance I guess.
Speaker 8 (08:22):
We know that that you know, on average, our parents
and grandparents are going to die before us. In some ways,
we kind of hope that they do because that's the
natural way of life.
Speaker 7 (08:30):
Right. Actually we don't kind of hope they do that.
Speaker 8 (08:33):
They would probably hope that they do too, because as
a parent we flip that around the other way and
recognize it. Actually, some people talk about the loss of
a child as being the most difficult kind of grief
that one could ever.
Speaker 7 (08:43):
Encounter, and I agreed, because it's.
Speaker 8 (08:46):
Unnatural, right, And then we think about the different ways
in which people can also die. So, I mean, you know,
often people who are grieving a terminal patient, someone who's
died over a long period of time, you know they're going,
often does a lot of their grieving before the actual
person departs, and they talk about a sense of relief
or a sense of the grief actually ending when the
person passes, as opposed to sudden death, where actually you're
(09:06):
often playing catch up and trying to figure out what's happened.
And then, of course, you know, obviously in my field,
we talk about the complications of losing someone to suicide,
which is really complicated because we never really know why.
Speaker 7 (09:20):
You know, whether other.
Speaker 8 (09:21):
Kinds of death or losses that the why is often
obvious or at least the coroner can figure it out
for us, right, But with suicide it's much more complicated.
So actually, that word complicated, I think is actually what
you're touching on is that we recognize clinically that there
is straightforward grief, straightforward a natural process often doesn't need
any kind of clinical intervention at all. People move through
(09:42):
that with support of friends and family. And we have
more complicated forms of grief, which are often about the
length of time that people take to move through that process,
and sometimes people will get stuck. And so with complicated grief,
we're sort of looking if someone's still really intensely in
the distress after about a year or so, then we
start to think that actually, something more complicated is going on,
(10:02):
and often that can look like a depression.
Speaker 7 (10:05):
Actually just reminded me. It's a trivial point, but in
a way, it's something I've noticed a few times when
somebody has lost a grandparent or an elderly parent and
people say, oh, and there's a comment like, oh, so
they were eighty five. I think to the bereaved, it's like, yeah,
it still sucks, because people sort of have this sort
(10:25):
of thing well okay at least, but what they're really
recognizing is that I guess no one's that shock. It's
the natural order of thing. But sometimes I think it
can feel to people like you're not acknowledging that that
it doesn't matter if the person was ninety or was ill.
It's grief is grief, and it's intense, and it's it's
a powerful emotion.
Speaker 8 (10:46):
It is and actually again special case with parents. Often,
you know, what we find in my job is that
when people have had difficult or conflicted or perhaps even
at times abusive relationships with parents, where the relationship has
been very dysfunctional, grief is actually more complicated in those circumstances.
It's one of those things that often seems like a
(11:06):
bit of a paradox, like you could kind of imagine
if you've had an awful relationship with family, that there
might be some sort of relief that they're gone right.
But actually what's often the case is it's much more
complicated to deal with because all of the issues about
the past traumas and struggles and difficulties often come up
at that moment of grief, and that's the time sometimes
when people find themselves heading towards an office like mine.
Speaker 7 (11:28):
Actually, I guess that would be the next question. And
by the way, if there's anything that you need to
talk to someone about, even if you don't want to
call up now, and I always might like to make
a point of this. The service that is one seven
three seven, either text or you call it if you
need someone to talk to and if anything we talk
about today, as I don't like to use the word
triggered because it's such, but if anything evokes a response
(11:51):
on you where you really feel you need to talk
to someone, please do text or call that number. If
you want to talk about your struggle with grief on
air and you want like to call and have a
chat with Kyle, then we'd love you to do so.
On eight hundred and eighty ten eighty where was I distract.
Speaker 8 (12:05):
Parts, Yes, but also you were talking about jobs and changes,
and it's good that you raise that because, as you
were sort of hinting at, any adjustment or loss can
trigger grief. And that's the thing about grief, and one
of the other versions of what we think of as
complicated grief is often one grief can trigger past griefs
that haven't been sort of adequately processed, so you know,
(12:27):
for instance, a redundancy might bring up past losses or
job difficulties, or may trigger you know, past experiences of
loss that may not seem obviously connected but are all
connected by the fact that there've been a loss or
adjustment we've been forced to make and that's been beyond
our control.
Speaker 7 (12:43):
Okay, look, we want to take your calls on eight
hundred and eighty ten eighty text nine two nine two.
Actually just one thing as well, since we were talking
about those five stages, and I've completely forgotten that that's
what it was about, because I've probably touted that to people.
Of course, you're in the denial, you know, denial, acceptance,
all that sort of stuff. Is there a particular process
(13:05):
to grief that we can rely on?
Speaker 8 (13:07):
Yeah, it sucks, and I don't say that lightly. I think,
you know, one of the things is I think we
just have to accept that there is a process, and
I think that the I think we're getting better, but
I think largely in the West we're really bad at this.
If you think about the cliched process with grief in
the West, you get two or three days bereavement, leave
off work, regardless of who it is who's died, and
(13:29):
you go to a funeral for a few hours, and
you get pissed and then you carry on with life. Right,
that's kind of a pretty terrible way to go about
the whole thing, really, and when you look at say,
for instance, traditional Mildy Tonguey or other indigenous cultures around
the world, or non Western cultures at least, often there's
much more of a process of really leaning into the experience,
you know, open caskets, engaging more with the person's body,
(13:53):
being together in a community maybe for twenty four to
forty eight or hours or longer, and actually really experiencing
those feelings. And that, I think is what acceptance looks like,
actually taking the time home in space to not only
feel the feelings, but actually invite them and welcome them,
but hopefully to do that in a way that's connected
with other people.
Speaker 7 (14:12):
Although if you again there's no rules to it either.
If there's an aspect of grieving, for instance, you know,
you mentioned the open casket things, and some people are
into that and other people like I don't need to.
But I think you can probably trust your instincts on
that stuff, can you.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
Yeah?
Speaker 8 (14:24):
Absolutely, And it is true that some people don't need to.
I think when we start to think about individually how
do we how we might choose to navigate these things,
I think it's always about thinking about what do I
need to do, to actually lean into the experience of
acknowledging the loss and accepting that this has actually happened,
rather than fighting with reality.
Speaker 7 (14:41):
Hey, we want to take your cause on this one
hundred and eighty ten to eighty text nine to nine
to two and this is this is the week in collective.
My guest is Calm McDonald. If you don't recognize as
mallifluous tones, then we'll be back in just a moment.
It's twenty one past four news talks he'd beat. Did
you know that one in six New Zealanders experience hearing
(15:03):
loss and choosing the right hearing solution for your individual
needs is important. Your local Triton Hearing team will work
with you to find the best hearing solution for your
listening needs, lifestyle and budget. So if you or someone
close to you as considering hearing aids, the twenty twenty
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(15:24):
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(15:47):
call on eight hundred forty five forty five forty two.
That's eight hundred forty five forty five forty two.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
Tim Beverage on the weekend Connective call Oh eight hundred
eighty ten eighty hues talk ZBI.
Speaker 7 (16:01):
Yes, welcome back to the show. My guest is carlik Don.
We're talking about the dealing with grief, I guess, and
maybe the five stages are not quite the five stages
and what the process is and how you deal with
and all that sort of stuff. Taking your calls one
eighteen eighty fill good afternoon, No good? Thanks? Hey doing okay?
Speaker 9 (16:21):
Good good, not too bad?
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Thank you.
Speaker 10 (16:24):
Hello Carl here as well. He Look, yeah, grief.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
I've been waiting for to talk on this one because
I'm interested in that, because I'm going through that, trying
to deal with that myself at the moment, because I've
gone through in the last six years, I've gone through
a number of things, losing both my parents, uncles and aunts,
(16:49):
even my cat, losing my job through alcohol. So I
have alcohol issues as well as I'm topped on with
the and I've been seeing a clinical psychologists who's very
good to help me try and understand why I am
struggling with the depression which I've had for a number
(17:11):
of years, even before these events took place that I
didn't even realize which was probably which was probably masked
by either drink. Because one of the things that I've
learned is that I don't handle emotion very well. I
can't really face emotion very well, you know. So one
of the things I do everything I can to run
(17:33):
away to avoid it rather than facing it and let
the tears flow and just deal with it, you know.
So part of that was where the alcohol coming over
the years, because that's been an ongaring issue. But like
I say, in the end, it cost me in my job.
So that's why I was interesting You're saying about forms
of grief not only having with your interpersonal, very interpersonal
(17:57):
things like losing your mother and father or your grandparent.
Of that another thing is I think that makes it hard.
So as I is just thinking that I'm an only
child as well, so I have no grandparents left on
both sides, but more importantly, I have no sisters or
brothers to call on either, you know, to share the
burden with and that sort of thing. So you feel
(18:18):
very yeah, even though you.
Speaker 8 (18:20):
Raise a really important point about the value of connection
and how important it is to be able to have
people to share that burden with, whether it be a
clinical psychologists or you know, siblings hopefully if you get along.
But actually central to grief, as you highlight, is that
ability to accept, which of course is the opposite of avoidance.
(18:41):
So you know, often we think about acceptance and avoidances
existing on different ends of a continuum, and actually avoidance
is kind of the enemy with grief. Which is not
to say that we need to sit around all day,
every day for months on and sort of you know,
sobbing about the loss, but it is recognizing that, you know,
there might be times when you're just having a shower,
or driving a work or sitting there trying to think
of a you know, a thoughtful work and you find
(19:04):
yourself a bit weeper, You're a bit sad, and that's
that's completely normal. So hey, thanks very much for you.
Speaker 7 (19:10):
It's actually funny. I wouldn't have mentioned this at the time,
but when my when my mum died, and you know,
you come back to it because you know, you get
on with things like yeah, life carries on and something.
It was back when Tim Rocksborough and I were doing
the show together and he something came up in the
show and I just mentioned my mum in passing and
I had to leave the studio. It just hit me
like a sledgehammer. I completely fell apart. I just to
(19:31):
switch my mic off. I don't think it would have
happened if I hadn't, if there hadn't been another host,
because because you could, yeah, I guess, because I could.
It was almost and I think it gave Tim a
bit of a surprise, of course, but he knew what
it was about. But but it is it just whammo
from nowhere. It's like I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm not okay, Yeah, anyway,
just sort of share that with you. There's lots of
(19:53):
course to get through. Let's keep it going. Julie Hello, Hello.
Speaker 3 (19:57):
Hello you guys.
Speaker 7 (19:58):
Good Thanks, Julie good.
Speaker 5 (20:00):
Hey.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
I've got a grief that goes back a long, long
way and some of it it was healthy related. Some
of it was losing my marriage, that was losing my
children and most recently losing my son in a road accident,
and my family's fallen apart. Like nobody nobody talks to me,
(20:28):
nobody reaches out to me or begs messages or calls.
And it's mostly due to my losing my health and
becoming quite well mentally and physically right. And yeah, so
in my grieving for my son, I was given no choices.
I was not given any say into how I would
(20:51):
breath or how has the fear in all or anything.
And now I'm alone, And yeah, I'm grieving on my own.
Speaker 8 (21:00):
It's really tough to do that on your Also, sounds
like you've had a huge amount of grief in your life.
Speaker 3 (21:05):
Yeah, those right back to the child. But yeah, and
I also lost the baby, you know, several years ago.
Speaker 6 (21:14):
Oh yeah, any support?
Speaker 8 (21:16):
Are you talking to someone about this accumulation of all
these things that have happened in particularly your son's grief.
Speaker 3 (21:23):
No, I'm not. I was to have a disease where
I don't make cortisole, So I find it very difficult
to process right grief because of not making cortisole. You know,
my whole place and flight. It's just a mess, my
hope to a trink, a mess. So no, I'm not
getting any help. And yeah, I have been suicidal.
Speaker 8 (21:47):
Have you had any contact with the one seven three
seven service over the recent sort of couple of years.
Speaker 3 (21:54):
I've wrote a couple of times when I felt suicidal
but I just hung up.
Speaker 8 (22:00):
Yeah, I'd really encourage you to give it another go,
and you don't have to wait until you're feeling, you know,
worried about yourself in that way. It's actually okay just
to use them as a just just to use them
as a counseling service, and some people do that on
a pretty regular basis. And they actually have services where
you can stay connected with the same person over a
period of time as well. So i'd really encourage you
to give that another go because it is a way
(22:22):
to access counseling and support that's free of charge. And
also you can do it from your home. You don't
even have to leave the house.
Speaker 7 (22:27):
I think something that cropped up to with me with Julie.
Thanks for your call, Julie, Yeah, thank.
Speaker 8 (22:32):
You and all the best with all of that, And
it's really tough.
Speaker 7 (22:36):
Is I sometimes wonder whether we also there's another side
to it about whether people are intimidated by someone's loss
and grief. You know, sometimes we're scared to, we're scared
to we don't know what to say. I had a
friend of mine. I'm not going to go into details,
but he had a really tragic, really tragic event in
(22:59):
his family that was so awful that I didn't know
what to say. But it was back in the days
before email, and I actually wrote to them and said
in the end, I thought I have to and I
just write and said, I wrote, I said, I don't
know what to say, but I'm just thinking of you
and perfect yeah, because I didn't know what to But
I think that that's the thing that anyone who's genuinely grieving,
(23:23):
don't be afraid of their grief. You've just got to
just reach.
Speaker 8 (23:25):
Out, just tell them that unfortunately some people are yeah, right,
and you're right. And it was also in my mind
as Julie was talking. I don't want to make any
assumptions about her life, but generally speaking, it is the
case sometimes and people who have had big losses will
talk about this that sometimes the worst time is actually
sort of a month or two later.
Speaker 7 (23:43):
Yeah, it's not the time when you think, let's drop
off a meal in the first few days.
Speaker 8 (23:47):
It's like people know how to do something right. We
Kiwis are quite good doers. You know. We can cook
a meal, we can fix a car, we can do
those kinds of things, you know, pick the kids up
from school for you, We can help you out. But
two or three months later, when you're still wanting to
process and talk about it, and everyone else is kind
of going, oh, but I am sure it. Yeah, but
much emotion for me very much. I'll stay away from that. Unfortunately,
(24:07):
that does happen really important. What you said, Tim that Actually,
if you're out there and you're listening and you've got
someone in your life who is struggling and you don't
know what to say, just say that.
Speaker 7 (24:18):
So I don't know what to say, I.
Speaker 8 (24:19):
Don't know what to say. I've never experienced this. But
if you need anything, I'm here and if you want
to talk, and it.
Speaker 7 (24:24):
Ties into that other. It's just about the power of connection.
Just absolutely just connect with people. It doesn't and there's
no well, there are probably wrong things to say, but
there's if you've come at it from a no right
thing to say, that's right, okay, let's take some more calls. Craig, Hello, definitely,
how's it going good? Thanks?
Speaker 9 (24:44):
And I've rung you in the past. I've had problems
with low version. I've talked to you and a few
other different times over times. But in my lifetime I've
had a couple of redundancies where you basically get made redundant.
And I worked for Data Cable and the Whiteouts. That's
kind of like a very small niche market, and I
found that when you get more redundant, you normally get
calls from other companies or who'd you're available, can come
(25:06):
work for us. So that's been quite good in that way.
But I was in a relationship with it lag for
quite a few years, got engaged, and then I had
the work accident thing where it became visually impaired, and
she decided it was too hard and left. And I
found that really hard to struggle with. This thing I
found really hard was you give me your friends, saying
to you you're committed relationships, going, oh, it's not too
(25:28):
bad being by your own, by yourself for a while,
it was quite good, and all sort of stuff relationships
are and everything, and I found that actually made it
worse because and then they'd say, oh, come over our
place for dinner. So you go over there and there
be a couple of couples and they're all all cuddling stuff,
and you're on the couch by yourself and thinking, I
don't really need this is just way in my face
type of thing. And I found that for me what
(25:49):
worked the most was wasn't talking to anyone anything there
and all that. It was actually just spending time by
myself and getting used to the fact and all that
because I used to when I was able to drive,
used to go to the beach quite often and go
fleshing or just walking on the beach and look at
the sand and stuff like that, just to taking press
from work. And because I can't do it now, I've
had it really hard as that was my outlet. I
(26:11):
hope to even remove all the photos in the house
of here because it's quit too hard. But ironically, nowadays
we're really good friends. We got back to just being
really good friends, like where we're in a relationship and
we hang out occasionally and do stuff, and I put
a photos back up and that sort of stuff and
all my friends going, but she left you in her chain.
I go, yeah, but that was probably her way of
dealing with the situation that I was going through. And
(26:33):
everyone deals with things differently, so it was just.
Speaker 8 (26:35):
Yeah, they sure do. And I really like what you're
saying about recognizing that what you need is to be
able to have some time to yourself in some space
to think. It's also a really good example of that's
not the wrong way to say it of what often
happens with strong emotions in relationships is what I call
unintentional invalidation, which is a bit of a mouthful, right,
but it's basically any version of oh you'll be right, mate,
(26:58):
get over it at more fish than the sea. Well,
because actually what it says is you should just stop
feeling what you're feeling. That's the solution here, Just stop
having those feelings. And you know what, that never works.
Speaker 7 (27:09):
It never works.
Speaker 8 (27:10):
It's hard though, But actually what we need to do
is lean into the feelings and say, well, of course
you're upset, man.
Speaker 7 (27:15):
How I've got a text here actually giving some tips,
not what what not to say. I won't read them
all that, but basically, don't offer people's solutions. Yeah, just
listen and say it sucks. Yeah, it's awful. And somebody
says it sucks, saying well, it's not so bad, I'd say, yeah,
I think it must suck or whatever. I don't know,
you know, clumsily expressed by me. Then, But anyway, let's
(27:36):
carry on. Actually tell you what. We'll take a quick break,
come back in just a moment. Oh, eight hundred eighty
ten eighty is the number text nine to nine. It's
twenty two minutes to five on news talk, said bysing
by myself Mesel. Welcome back to the Weakend Collective. I'm
(28:07):
Tim Beverage. My guest is coment. Don't we talk about
dealing with grief in the stage Well, no, we're not
talking about the stages a grief, of course, we're sort
of we've pushed that sort of five stages thing to
one side. There's no right process or not. We're taking
your calls about how you've dealt with there are any
questions you've got Manisha, Hello, Hi, how.
Speaker 9 (28:23):
Are you good?
Speaker 7 (28:24):
Thanks? How are you doing good?
Speaker 3 (28:26):
Good?
Speaker 6 (28:26):
Thank you?
Speaker 7 (28:28):
Right with Carlin? Where you go?
Speaker 6 (28:31):
Yeah, So basically I just wanted to tell that, you know,
while we're talking about grief things. I really want to
say that bringing friends and families together at that time
and getting their support really helps. Like I really want
to talk about something about Hindu Indian culture. So how
we process is like I recently or recently, like you
(28:52):
call the nineteen I lost my father and we were
all griefing, and you know, we have a process where
for thirteen days old the families stay together. Ye, so
everyone comes together and they stay together. So in thirteen days,
you know, it helps a lot to process the whole
griffing period. And we do have a lot of rituals
(29:15):
where we we kind of like you know, slowly shows everyone,
like the priests come and they show that you know,
how the whole thing happen and how the soul is
gone and everything. And in that process everyone comes to
me and you kind of you know, share your story
of laws and then you cry again and again. And
(29:36):
when you have all that kind of support of families
and friends in thirteen days, you kind of feel little
a little better.
Speaker 7 (29:43):
And then we have a problem the paravitual, I guess,
isn't it.
Speaker 6 (29:49):
Yeah, So it's like it's like you know where we
have like Okay, for example, on day one, they do
the you know, cremation, and then after that we get
told like, okay, now if we do this, they'll get
peace and everyth and after that, like we have. After
one month, we get together again, Okay, check on the
(30:11):
person and the family. Yeah, and then we here for
after three months also, and we call it as a ritual,
so it's like kind of compulsory for everyone to be there.
Speaker 8 (30:21):
Yeah, it sounds like a wonderful and you're doing nothing
but reinforcing my idea that actually we're really rubbish at
this in the West because that you know, not wanting
to minimize that the spiritual and cultural elements and the rituals.
But actually it's connection, right, It's being together and making
sure that no one's going through that process on their own,
and actually spending a couple of weeks focusing on it.
(30:42):
Is the acceptance part, right, actually getting our brain and
our mind adjusted to the fact that the person is
no longer around. So thanks very much for your call.
Speaker 7 (30:50):
I remember a friend of mine going to his partner
was from a different culture and they have quite a
long long way of saying goodbye, and he said, gosh,
they've got the right idea, because by the end of it.
You're absolutely begging to get back to normality.
Speaker 8 (31:02):
Well, yeah, you say long way of saying goodbye.
Speaker 7 (31:04):
Perhaps it's the right well length of time, yeah, quite possibly,
good one. Right, let's carry on. Thanks for your culmination,
really appreciate it. Richard.
Speaker 10 (31:14):
Hello, oh Tim, how are you doing? Yeah, yeah, I've
spoken to you for a little while. Actually, it's good
to hear your voice too. I've in a different cause.
It's all right for me to talk about it, but
I've had a different approach to death, of course, and grief.
Being in the funeral trade for over forty five years,
(31:35):
I was pleased to get out. Believe me, I was
thrilled of it. To get out. Forty five years is
far too long in the game. But the ironical thing
is what you've been saying right along there is being
quite correct. And that previous caller from the I presume
she was from the Indian culture. But the ritual of togetherness,
(31:57):
whether with people or with your higher authority guide, of course,
it's the only way. There's no other way. I have
found in the Western culture, especially Western cultures, it seems
to be more profound than grief levels. Because sorry, ninety
percent of death really, at the end of the day,
(32:17):
is of a natural cause of the amy funerals.
Speaker 8 (32:20):
I do when you say, when you say more profound
in the ways you mean, the more emotion, more distress
type response, Yeah.
Speaker 10 (32:27):
It's yeah, he struck the words out of my mouth. Actually, there,
overall the Western culture, it hasn't got the family links,
and it hasn't got the spiritual links compared to African, Asian,
South American cultures, et cetera. Islamic culture that thegetherness is
(32:50):
the key and the other there's no doubts about it
if you've got a faith, if you've got a faith
believing that this will is not the end all, because
death has got no respect whatsoever for age, whether you're
one or one hundred and one, has got no respect whatsoever.
Once your time is up, your time is up. As
soon as you're born, you're there to die, simple, clear
(33:11):
cut is that. But on a personal level, there you
go the human deaths. So I've gone through many of
my own relatives, mothers, brothers, and you know who've done
their funerals. That doesn't afflict me. But I tell you
what does afflict me with grief? Animal deaths, and yeah,
animal deaths are I can't no, I will not tolerate.
I can't tolerate anything cruelty to an animal and or
(33:32):
death of an animal. And an interesting thing is that
before I do go, I think the news is coming.
The funny thing is is that the Nazis were exactly
the same, no empathy towards human death. Yeah, but animal debts.
You touch an animal and that was your lot. It's
quite it's quite a complicated, and I don't have an
answer for it.
Speaker 8 (33:52):
Thanks Richard, Thanks for your insights forty five years in
the trade.
Speaker 10 (33:55):
Eh.
Speaker 7 (33:55):
Yeah, Actually I was thinking with animal deaths with it's
they're almost like a training ground for kids with grief,
aren't they.
Speaker 8 (34:02):
Yeah, Yeah, they absolutely are. I mean it's one of
the i's for having pets actually is that they die.
Speaker 7 (34:08):
So sounds we're giving you a cat, billy, because it's
going to be a good loning experience for you when
at some point.
Speaker 8 (34:17):
This is going to die and it's going to sit you.
Speaker 3 (34:19):
No.
Speaker 8 (34:19):
But actually it's one of those natural things, isn't it.
So kids learn about grief, whether it be a goldfish,
whether it be a cat or a dog, because often
you know, particularly in you know with our health system
now and the way we look after ourselves in the
twenty fifth century. Often kids can go many years about
experiencing any deaths of anyone close to them, and it
is about resilience too.
Speaker 7 (34:38):
Yeah, okay, we're going to take some more calls. In
just a moment. It's twelve minutes to five. News Talks
dB did a Fullwoody crazy Yes, welcome back to the
Weekend Collective. I'm to beverage. Car McDonald as psychotherapist is
(34:59):
my guest talking about grief. We don't have too long
to go. It's at nine minutes to five, but it's
just as a heads up to anyone he's about to
talk to us, just in case we run short of time. Sarah, Hello, Hello.
Speaker 5 (35:13):
How are you good?
Speaker 7 (35:14):
Thanks? How are you doing?
Speaker 6 (35:15):
Cool? Yeah?
Speaker 5 (35:16):
Look, I've had three major deaths in the last few years,
one of them being my husband, who died very young
and ghastly, disgustly experience out of the blue, and I'm
still profoundly affected by it, and who was quite well known,
who was actually Arabian ouncer, funny enough, and a lot
(35:37):
of people came to his funeral and they just couldn't cope,
so basically I never saw a lot of people. Again,
it's a very isolating time, and I understand that, but
at the time I had to sort of go for
all these greets because I knew a lot of people.
And one of my questioning to you is, I don't now,
as I said here, because I've recently said my mother die.
Speaker 6 (36:01):
That sort of opened it up.
Speaker 5 (36:03):
I don't believe some people connect to you ever get
over it because I don't believe I can. Yeah.
Speaker 8 (36:08):
Well, I mean, I'm really sorry for your losses here,
And it's a really great question. I sort of agree
with you in the sense that I think a really
unhelpful idea which can float around in particularly people talking
to people who've lost someone, is you know that sense
of why over it yet? You know it's been two years,
it's been a lot, Yeah, exactly, And so I think
(36:29):
the answer to that question is like, well, yeah, in
a way, you never will get over it. What I
think the experience of grief is is that the length
of time between the periods when you feel really overwhelmed
by the distress, hopefully over time should lengthen and that
over time the feelings should soften. But I think when
it comes to partners or children or close family members,
I think we always carry them in our heart. For me,
(36:51):
the measure as a clinician, if you like, if we
want to sort of draw a line in the sand,
is to say, hopefully the feelings aren't intense enough that
they're getting in the way of your day to day functioning.
And if they are, then that's a pretty good sign
that it might be a good idea to talk to
someone to get that grief process moving again, because to me,
that's a sign that things might get a bit stuck.
So if you find that, for instance, it's harder to
(37:12):
socialize or connect with friends because of those feelings, and
that's a this is a we sign, it might be
an idea to talk to someone. But I do agree.
I think actually we always carry people in our heart
and our memories. Even if we do move on, have
other relationships and move on with their life, they're always
kind of there.
Speaker 5 (37:28):
I think it's the Western thing that the guy said,
like where like people just say some really awful things actually,
or you shouldn't be over at how long has it been?
And you know, it's like you just want people to say, hey,
I'm here. You know, those things are not helpful at all,
because when there's been great love, you know, that's grief
(37:51):
to me. And you know, my husband and I he
adored me like I adored him, and his parting was
he was young, and it was just so awful and
out of the blue. And I still get quite worn
to buy that time.
Speaker 9 (38:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (38:08):
Thanks, thanks for your call, Sarah, and all the best. Now,
I think if what would be the signs that you have,
what would be the signals that you might need to
speak to someone as opposed to just the normal process
of the sadness and grief that.
Speaker 8 (38:25):
You well, well, I was reminded of this quote the
other day when I was watching something about therapy, and
a really good place to start is if you're wondering
whether or not you're depressed or you need to talk
to a therapist, just make sure you're not surrounded by
assholes first, because actually a really good place to check
is have you got a supportive network, right? Or have
(38:47):
you got a network who's telling you that you should
be over it and get over it and we don't
want to hear about it anymore. Having said that, if
you find that, like I said, it's getting in the way.
If the feelings are so intense that they're actually stopping
you from living your life. Or if you feel like
over time things aren't shifting and moving and changing, then
it might be a good idea to.
Speaker 7 (39:06):
Talk to someone.
Speaker 8 (39:06):
And yes, there are a grief specialists, but I genuinely
believe any therapists and psychologists can help you with grief
because it's so universal.
Speaker 7 (39:12):
Actually, quite a few texts just about animals, and one
in particular says our dog died of kidney cants for
a month ago, age ten years, my husband and I
still consumed with grief. We also feel incredibly guilty as
we didn't grieve as much for our fathers, who were
both in the eighties when they died. It's a real rollercoaster.
There's something about animals, and that's the thing. If you
feel loss, don't worry about whether you feel it more
(39:35):
because it was your favorite poodle versus you know, your
grandmother or something.
Speaker 8 (39:39):
Grief it is what it is, a completely agree the
feelings of the feelings. And you know, over life grief
to compounds, so it might be that for us, for
one person, their pet has actually trigger a whole bunch
of other feelings they haven't yet had the chance to feel.
Speaker 7 (39:52):
Somebody else has said said here, that's one of the
reasons I never had a pet, because I was worried
about it when it died. It's like I do, wish
you'd just have maybe enjoy those twelve years of joy
of having a wonderful pet. Kind of love, isn't it? Yeah?
That is indeed. Gosh. Look and if anyone needs anyone
to talk to again, if it's something you really want
to speak to someone, you don't know where to reach
this call or text one seven three seven, or you
(40:13):
can look for specialist psycho therapists help, I mean, how
people go about that. We've got about ten seconds for
you to tell.
Speaker 8 (40:19):
Us that talkingworks. Dot CODO ended as a pretty good
place to start. National Directory of Counselors and Therapists.
Speaker 7 (40:25):
Excellent, Carl, Great to see you. Great, you had a
good holiday. Catch you again soon, pleasure. Cheers mate. We'll
be back shortly with smart Money. This is News Talk
S EDB.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
For more from the weekend collective, listen live to News
Talks EDB weekends from three pm, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio.
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