August 18, 2024 • 40 mins
August is the Cancer Society's biggest fundraising month, and Daffodil Day is fast approaching on Friday the 30th of August.
Sir Bill Denny is a former Director of the Auckland Cancer Society Research Centre and has a long list of accolades.
Bill joins Tim Beveridge on The Weekend Collective to discuss where the donations from Daffodil Day go, and all the latest in cancer drug research.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talk SEDB.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
And welcome back to the show. This is the Weekend
Collective and I'm Tim Beverage and this is the Health Hub.
We want your we'd love to have your cause on
this on ten eighteen text. But this health Hub is
a sort of bit of a special health hub because
August is well known as the Cancer Society's big fundraising month.
(00:55):
Again it's once again it's supported by A and Z
and Daffodil Day is well, it's it's not too far away.
It's Friday, the thirtieth of August. But you don't have
to wait till then. If you're in a position to
help the one in three Kiwis who are affected by cancer,
you can actually donate now. You can text the word
donate two two double four to two. Okay, so the
(01:18):
number is two double four to two. You text the
word donate and then what happens is you'll get a
link and you can select your donation amount and the
donations from Kiwi's help with research into all sorts of cancers.
And it's a Daffodil Day soon, so good time to
find a bit more about that research. So joining us
in the studio is a very special guest. He's a
past director of the Auckland Cancer Society Research Center. I'm
(01:41):
going to read a bit of his CV out. Then
we're going to dig into a bit more about Professor
Sibil Denny. But his interests include the design and evaluation
of small molecule drugs. He's been involved in the development
of fourteen drugs to clinical trial. He'll be embarrassed if
I read out as awards, but he's got a few.
He's serve build Any. For a start, he's received the
Rutherford Medal of the Royal Society of New Zealand, the
(02:04):
Adrian Albert Meda of the UK Royal Society of Chemistry,
in the twenty fourteen Medicinal Chemistry Award of the American
Chemical Society. Anyway, I think the gist is if you've
got some questions, or you're interested in the science and
the development of cancer cures and technology and research, then
(02:24):
this is the hour for you. So joining me in
the studios, Professor to bild Any, I'm just going to
call you Bill, good Bill, how are you.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
I'm fine, that's the best way to do it.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Excellent. Firstly, just to find out a bit about you.
I mean, I did read out the awards because I
thought we should we should start by polishing your apple
a little bit. But how did you you have you've
recently retired and you've had a lengthy career. But how
did you get started in science full stop?
Speaker 4 (02:48):
Well?
Speaker 3 (02:48):
I got started in science because I was always interested
in chemistry for some particular reason, even when I was
a child, and I remember I collected my own group
of chemicals and I had to shed out the back
which I made explosions and various dangerous things. My parents
were very accepting of that, and I followed that right
(03:12):
through into into school and then into university and ended
up at the University of Oxford, where I spent three years.
And at that particular, at the end of that time,
we started to look around for jobs for me in
the UK, and I was expecting to go maybe into
a pharmaceutical company there, and then I got a call
(03:34):
from someone, and it was a letter in those days
from Bruce Kane, who was then director of the Auckland
Kancer Society Research Center, wanted to know if I would
like to come back and join the center.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
So how did you go from sort of it sounds
like you're blowing things up in your shed, a little
bit like Sir Peter Beck, except you didn't go into rockets.
You went into into sort of medicinal chemistry. When when
did you When did your interest refine from you know,
your initial undergraduate studies of doing I'm guessing you did chemistry.
(04:08):
When did that refine into something that became useful for
medical research?
Speaker 4 (04:15):
Well?
Speaker 3 (04:15):
I thought I was interested in chemistry because of what
you can do with it and how you can develop
new molecules, and that was what I was doing in Oxford.
And when I got the I hadn't really thought about
cancer research until I got the letter from Bruce Kane
asking me would I like to join the Cancer Research
(04:37):
Center because they were developing new drugs therapy. How long
ago was that, Oh, nineteen sixty, I'm nineteen seventy something.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
Like that, criky.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
Yeah, it's been a long journey, but a very very
rewarding one.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
And what was the state of cancer research and treatment
back when you started.
Speaker 3 (04:58):
Well, it was a lot less effective than it is
now because in the last twenty thirty years, a lot
of work going on into developing drugs which are not
simply sell killing agents, but more or less this is
designed to select and treat specific cancers, so there's a
much more specificity now in the therapy.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
What's the most It might be difficult to answer them
these questions because you've had such a lengthy career, but
is there anything that stands out to you through the
course of your career as being the most exciting sort
of development or the most a real moment where you've
got got where you've thought this is, this is this
is a real game changer when it comes to treating cancer.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
It is a difficult question to answer, probably whenever we
succeed in getting a new drugs through into clinical trial,
probably because we've spent ten fifteen years working on refining
that to the stage where it has been accepted by
the authorities and can be used in Man. And for example,
we have now a drug and trial in Auckland Hospital
(06:07):
Tarlocksotten which has been developed by a couple of people
in the lab and that's taken them ten years to
get it to this point. So getting a drug over
the line the authority is accepted into even the first
stage trials is a big moment for everybody.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Uh, and what's that drug particularly, what's this, what's what's
that one about? What's the named treating.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
We're still working that out. But the drugs drug is
one of a particular type which we call a it's
it's a pro drug in the sense that when you
give it cancer drug to people, the drug distributes everywhere
in the body and you end up with the side
effects that are inevitable from drug treatment because it doesn't
(06:55):
all it doesn't just go to the cancer. So with
this with tarsott is a pro drug which is circulates
all the around than the body, but it's relatively non
toxic and it's only when it gets into the low
oxygen regions of tumors that it turns itself on.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
To be toxic. Okay, So in other words, from the
from the layperson's point of view, I've always under does
it still come under the headline of chemotherapy? Oh, it
is certainly that because chema. Well, actually, let's just so
people know, because chemotherapy in a way has a stigma
because you think you're up for chemotherapy. Therefore saygabidy, you'rre here,
sagabidy your health and hopefully the drug will just kill
(07:36):
your disease rather than you would be. Some people's fear
about chemotherapy, and is this one where it's more targeted? Well,
what is chemotherapy, I'll interrupt myself.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
Human therapy is simply the treatment of cancer with small
molecular drugs. Okay, So, and as you say, those drugs
generally distribute everywhere in the body, and they do damage
to normal cells as well. I mean, perhaps still lesser extent,
but in the general course of events, you do get
(08:07):
side effects because the drug is distributed everywhere. It's killing
cancer cells, but there's also a concombatant cell kill in
various other areas in the body, especially where cells are
turning over rapidly.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
That in a way would that be I'm going to
ask some dumb questions, by the way, because I'm not
a scientist, But to me, over the last few years,
I've got the impression that the treatments that are available
are more and more about just the drugs being smarter
and being able to what you're saying is a pro
what did you say pro so? In other words, so
(08:49):
it's not that's not just we're going to carpet bomb everything.
Now it's a bit more precision sort of targeting, and
is that maybe the biggest advance, one of the bigger
advances in chemotherapy.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
There's two sorts of advances along the lines that you
say is we're developing molecules that are much more specific
for particular cancer types, and so that means we can
develop drugs to target cancer A or cancer B. And
it's a different drug. It's not simply we've got six
(09:21):
drugs and we give it to every patient. But the
other thing is, as we've said before, drugs, once they
get into the body distribute everywhere, and so the idea
of a pro drug is to have it inactive until
it enters the tumor cells. And we managed to do
that by recognizing that in tumors there is very low
(09:44):
oxygen levels. So if you can design a drug which
is not active in high oxygen levels but active in
low oxygen levels, then you will target cancer specifically. And
this is one of the major areas of interest in
our laboratory.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
When so you talked about the colleagues who have developed this,
it's going to clinical trials. So clinical trials means it's
going to go into people. Is that right, that's correct.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
There are three sorts of clinical trials. The first stage
one where you're simply evaluating the drug in people to
be concerned about toxicity efforts and things like that.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Yep. And what's stage two?
Speaker 3 (10:25):
Stage two really is when you give the drug to
a larger number of people, but all with one specific
cancer type, so you can see whether this has general
effects beneficial effects in the cancer itself.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
And stage three is three is what when it's basically
a larger proportion of people.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
Or Stage three as rall is that it's a larger
proportion of people, usually around one thousand people, So you
want a broad spectrum of people with this particular disease
to see whether the drug is consistently effected.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
And is that usually the stage where you're you're pretty
confident that it's a safe drug. You just want to
see how effective it is or is it still considering
issues of safety.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
You've always been You've always got to consider issues of
safety because cancer drugs are generally designed to kill cells. Yeah,
and so with that, your safety has always got to
be a major concern.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Okay, So in the journey of from ten years from
developing a drug to going on clinical trials, what what
is the first year or two of that sort of
research look like, is it again dumb questions? But is
it sort of Petri dish sort of stuff?
Speaker 3 (11:43):
Yeah, absolutely it is.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
It's okay.
Speaker 3 (11:48):
The chemist are in their lab devising all these interesting
new molecules that are new and they look exciting and
they're interesting to make. Then we test them all in cells,
just in cells and a petri dish, and most of
them fall over at that point, and.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
Now they basically don't do what they've got. Do you
have some tumors or something you introduce a drug to
correct and you go, let's see what happens, and you know, oh,
that didn't work.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
Yeah, that's right. I mean that's an awful lot of
what goes on in the lab. No, this didn't work.
Let's do something.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Else if you But just another dumb question. I'm going
to specialize in dumb questions. So when you are say,
you talk about having drugs that can thrive in a
low oxygen environment and that's those are the ones that
are going to target the cells. Does that mean what
sort of if you're doing it in a petri dish?
(12:35):
That sounds like it'd be quite a challenge because you
don't want to introduce oxygen at that stage either do
you you want it to have a low oxygen environment
in that peatra dish? So does that mean that the
equipment you've what does that mean in terms of equipment?
Speaker 3 (12:48):
Or you can simply put the peachradish in a low
oxygen environment?
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Yeah? What's a low oxygen environment?
Speaker 3 (12:54):
Or oxygen levels below about one or two percent?
Speaker 4 (12:56):
No?
Speaker 2 (12:56):
I mean that is that just so? Is that in
a specific chamber or something stripped out of there?
Speaker 3 (13:03):
We have the equipment to do that.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Yeah, okay, okay, before my brain needs a rest and
a cup of teaen to lie down, one more question
and we'll take your cause. By the way, if you've
got any questions around the science or if for professor
Sir Bill Denny, then this is your chance. Because we
a lot of the time when we do we talk
about health and cancer treatments and all sorts of things
on talkback. We don't have an expert in the room.
(13:26):
So we've got one and now so you can give
him a call. He's not a doctor, by the way,
in terms of a medical doctor. It's about the science
of developing molecules to treat cancers. If you've got any questions,
we'd love to hear from you. On eight hundred and
eighty ten eighty. By the way, I'm going to mention
it a few times probably, But if you want to
donate to for Daffodil Day, and it's thirtieth of August,
(13:47):
but rarely from now on, it's open. It's supported by
A and Z. All you need to do is text
the word donate to two four four two and there'll
be link you'll get and you can select your donation amount. Actually,
I'll come back with my interesting question about where we're
at in terms of New Zealand research in just a moment.
But this is the health up on the Weekend Collective.
It's twenty past four. News Talk said, b give us
(14:09):
a caller, you can text your question.
Speaker 4 (14:15):
Don't show over, don't colder, don't stuck caring.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
He mean welcome, you're not and welcome back to the
health Hub. I'm Tim Beverage and this is this is
a health hub looking forward to Daffodil Day on the
thirtieth of August. And my guess is Professor of Bill Denny.
He's former director of the Auckland Cancer Society Research Center
and we're just chatting basically about the scientific advancements when
it comes to treating cancers. But of course if you
(14:43):
want to support the work that has done to address
the challenge that cancer presents to right around New Zealand,
then you can text two four four two in the
word donate tense text donate to two four four two.
You'll get a link and you can select your donation amount. Bill.
How good are we in New Zealand at cancer research?
Speaker 3 (15:06):
Well, I think we're very good, and I'm not speaking
just about our own research center, but there are groups
the Madigan Institute, there are groups in the University of
Otago which are carrying out a large number of which
are covering a large number of areas in cancer research,
which is a very broad area. So we've got in
most of the universities, we've got groups that are very
(15:29):
important and hooked up with groups overseas as well.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Has there been a big change in terms of science
ific research in our capabilities in New Zealand. So for instance,
I mean the analogy i'd use as everyone assumes that
everything a lot of the big advancements happen in Europe
or America. But of course now we've got on the
rocket science thing we've got. I mean, that's an obvious thing.
But does that reflect generally the science community in New
(15:58):
Zealand that actually, you know what, we are punching well
above our weight.
Speaker 3 (16:03):
I think it's fair to say that very hard to
it's very hard to evaluate. We can't evaluate ourselves easily
against the United States, for example, because we're very small
and they're very big, but we have a presence there certainly.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Yeah, are there what are the things that I mean,
I don't know if you can talk about the research
that you're most excited about now, because I know a
lot of it's technical. But are there particular developments going
on now which you think, Wow, this is really pretty
amazing or is it just every time a drug comes
to trial you go, there's another victory that's exciting.
Speaker 3 (16:39):
I think the research is much more targeted now because
we know so much more about the myriad enzymes that
are present in cells which sometimes go crazy, and we
can target them much more specifically. For example, there are
about one hundred different kinase enzymes and there are people
(17:01):
developing drugs specifically for each one of those. So I
think in future the drugs will even will be even
better targeted than they are. Now we've made a big
advance in that already are there.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
While you're becoming more targeted with the drugs that you're creating,
does that mean that each drug you're creating treats fewer
cancers though they're more specific to each type of cancer.
So if you're a cancer suffering, you've got to again
dumb questions. So chemotherapy seemed to me, in my lay understanding,
(17:36):
to be something that was more broadly. You might have
one chemotherapy that would targets several different cancers. I don't know,
But now you've got this particular chemotherapy which is targeted
for this particular cancer. That's your drug.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
We're going down that line. I mean, that is exactly
the area in which is being developed most vigously at
the moment. There's a large number of new drugs are
coming out. They're very specific for particular cell types, they're
very specific for particular enzymes, and so speaking, now it's
much easier to rapidly determine which enzymes in a particular
(18:11):
cancer has gone haywire and select the drugs that can
treat that. So treatment is much more selective much more
patient selective than it than it was before.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
Okay, how do you how do you fund your research?
How do you get the money for it? Is it
things like Daffidilt Day? Where does the money come from?
Speaker 3 (18:32):
Certainly the Cancer Society Auckland Cancer Society has set up
the center in the first place and has always been
a significant funder of it. But we also raise our
own funding through writing, writing grants for applications, and in
particular we've also had close relationships with several big pharmaceutical
(18:55):
companies who've been interested in the particular compounds we're developing,
and we've had a good support from them as well.
So we have a range of support from different areas.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
What role does do What role does the charitable side
play when it comes to initiatives like Daffodil Day? How
important is the biggest thing about the money you raise
or is it more the awareness or is it a
package of the whole lot? In terms of this, what
daffodil Daffodil Day means well, deafit to.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
Day is critical for the cancer societies because they do
lots of things other than just support our center. They
also run the main lodge here in Auckland where patients
who are receiving treatment can get free board, and they
support a fleet of nurses who go around to treat
(19:48):
people at home with follow up therapy. So there's a
lot of things that they do in a part apart
from partially funding the center.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Does the treatment of cancers mean that also that cancers
can more cancers can be treated. I mean, I don't know.
We still do we still have the four stage model
of cancer one stage one, two, three, and four, And
does it are we able to treat cancers later effectively?
Speaker 3 (20:16):
That's getting a little bit outside my expertise, but my
sense is that that is certainly true. The drugs with it,
there are more drugs, they're more specific to particular targets,
and so you could if you can combine a number
of drugs to best target a particular cancer in a patience,
(20:37):
then that is that is an advance.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Yeah. I've got a few texts here which may or
maybe either in or outside of your area of expertise,
because when people hear doctor sud BUILDINGI, they think that
they think that maybe you're going to give them a
diagnosis on And I'll point out to anyone who's texting
that we I'll read some of the texts and if
(21:00):
we can answer them, sure, then then maybe some threat
of conversation will come out of them. So brace yourself. Okay, Oh,
this one's just an observation. Relates to my previous comment.
I have a friend who has stage four cancer. I
believe that used to be pretty much that much a
death sentence. But how times have changed and medicine has
improved that you can survive that level of cancer. And
(21:21):
that's sort of what we're saying. Isn't it even a
stage four cancer?
Speaker 3 (21:24):
I would agree with that. Yeah, I think across the
spectrum there are more and better drugs that are more selective.
Although there's a limit to how many drugs can be
funded obviously, but looking at the field as a whole,
we're better off now than we've ever been in terms
(21:44):
of a bib ability to treat the disease.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Do you think what you get to a stage? Again?
I know you probably won't like guesswork because you're a scientist. Actually, okay,
I'm going to ask a dumb question. How much when
it comes to establishing a clinical trial is a scientist
going I see this works here, this has worked, This
has been an installary research, and it's pretty much you
just switch on that creative part of your brain. I
(22:07):
wonder if that drug might work here. In other words,
in the early stages, how much guesswork is there as
opposed to just evidence, evidence, evidence evidence. Therefore, we're going
to do this next. Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 3 (22:22):
I think there's a lot of guesswork. Oh, I think
you have to have you have to have guesswork inspired
guess work is the basis of science.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
Well, well, it's because let's try this that doesn't work,
and therefore that doesn't work. Okay, so oh good, because
I was relieved. That was one of my dumb questions.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
Again, No, it's that's that's the essence of science.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
Well, because this is a slightly broader question. But where
I was chatting with we're talking about career choices with kids,
and and there was a comment made I think it
was I'm not going to get involved in politics, don't
worry that. There was a comment made about from our
prime minister that the arts might need to take a
bit of a back seat, and I was thinking, well,
hang on a minute. Even some of our greatest scientific
(23:02):
minds have a creative bent. Because you have to have
those creative moments where you think were you're thinking outside
the box. In fact, science has to be thinking outside
the box all the time, isn't it right?
Speaker 3 (23:12):
Absolutely, that's where the great changes come from.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
Oh god, that's a relief to Okay, this is a
specific one. I'm not sure if you've able to help,
but I'll read it anyway. Hi, thank you for your time.
What further research are you aware of any research that's
been done with pre existing vulva liken slerosis and high
time risk of vulver cancer with this autoimmune disease? How
(23:36):
common is that cancer and is there any research going
into it that you know about.
Speaker 3 (23:41):
I don't know of that cancer, which seems to me
to be relatively rare. Therefore, I really don't know what
research is going into that specific area. I'm sorry, I can't.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
No, that's all right. What about prostate cancer? Do you
know much about what's going on with because that because
there's the big debate that you people say, oh, well,
you're better you die with prostate cancer than treat it,
and is the care you are better? Are there any
anything particular in prostate cancer that's going on right now?
Speaker 3 (24:09):
Look? I don't specifically know of unique treatments for prostate cancer.
I mean, I can't really answer that question.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
Yeah, okay, here's one about just thought of a good question,
specific drugs coming out, Will we see them or will
they be out of reach of New Zealanders because of pricing?
And I guess that's in asure around farmac. But any
comment on that, well.
Speaker 3 (24:38):
The only comment is that the more drugs that are
collectively developed wherever they're developed, that are more and more specific,
the better it is for everybody. The question of whether
we can afford it is really a completely different question,
and we would I mean, obviously we prefer to have
(24:59):
a vigorous research area. Yeah, that is exploring everything. Yeah,
but price then becomes a problem.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
I know, Well you mentioned that, so you get funding
from a variety of resources. And as you say, you
mentioned that Daffodil Days about doing so much more for
the cancer Society, supporting people when their need accommodation and
to visit centers for cancer treatment and that holistic sort
of support I guess for cancer suffers in their families.
By the way, I'm going to keep plugging this if
(25:31):
you want to text two four four two text the
word donate and you can click a link and select
your donation for Daffodil Day, which may be on Friday,
the thirtieth of August. But you can get stuck into
it right now. And I've completely forgotten the question I
was going to ask there. Maybe that's a that's a
moment for me to take a break and I'll come
(25:52):
and work out what i was going to ask, because
I've got a truck load of questions. If you have
any questions for Professor Sir Bill Denny, he's former director
of the Auckland Cancer Society Research Center, you can call
or text now eight hundred eighty ten eighty or text
nine two niney two and back in a moment. It's
twenty four minutes to five News talks 'b Yes, and
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Speaker 1 (27:07):
Helping you get on top of your busy life. Tim
Beveridge on the Weekend Collector News.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
Talk said, be yes and welcome back to the show.
This is the Health Hub and my guest is a
special guest, professor Sir Bill Denny. He's former director of
the Auckland Cancer Society Research Center. And the reason that
Bill's with me is to have a chat about the
science and just to help us get a bit more
of an understanding of their amazing work that our New
Zealand scientists are doing. And also that the Cancer Society does,
(27:36):
and that to that end, with Daffodil Day approaching on
the Friday the thirtieth, I'm going to keep pushing this
that you text the word donate to two four four two.
You can click the link and select your donation now.
And as Bill was saying earlier on that the work
of the Cancer Society is so important and funding from
Daffodil Day because it's not just we're not just about
(27:56):
supporting science, it's about supporting the holistic needs of families
and the cancer sufferers who have to travel or whatever
around people who do with that what is still a
very challenging illness despite the scientific advances. So Bill, a
quick question for you is such a thing as a
quick question? I don't know you mentioned that the funding,
(28:17):
so you know, the funding from that you apply for
from government and for different funds, but sometimes you get
funded by pharmaceutical companies. What makes does it? What does
it mean once a pharmaceutical company funds something, does that
mean that they take complete ownership of the results of
(28:37):
that as well? Or how does that all work in
Because most people's concern is, oh, those pharmaceutical companies are
going to put the price up in we're never going
to be afford our treatment. But of course we need
their money to fund the research too, don't we.
Speaker 3 (28:50):
We do, And it's only the companies that have the
funding to take drugs through the necessary government mandated processes
before it can become available to the public. And that,
you know, for doing the stage three trials for a
(29:11):
new drug is one hundred million US dollars and so
that can't be funded by well, the scientific groups.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
Goodness, we get.
Speaker 3 (29:23):
We have had in the past very productive collaborations with
pharmaceutical companies who've come in to us and said, we're
interested in the sort of work that we see you've
been doing from your publications. We have things in the
same area. Could we do some work together, and then
we get funded to do that, We build our relationships
(29:44):
with those companies and it's all positive all round.
Speaker 5 (29:48):
Man.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
That's a lot of money, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (29:49):
But yes, well, I mean we can get a drug
to phase one perhaps, but phase two, phase three, the
companies have to do that.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
How much just okay, one hundred million for stage three trials,
what's it cost for stage four?
Speaker 3 (30:05):
Well? Really, then you're stage three is really the major
last stage that's required before a drug will get registered. Okay,
So there are stage four trials when there are really
their retrospective trials of drugs that.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
Are already okay, right, so stage three is the important one.
Speaker 4 (30:26):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
If New Zealand scientists are developing a drug which is
effective in treating cancer and it's been funded by a
big pharmaceutical company, does the fact that it's been invented
or developed by New Zealand technology, does that mean that
it's more it's ease more easily accessible by New Zealand
(30:49):
patients or does that have nothing to do with it.
Speaker 3 (30:51):
I don't think it's possible to do that because often
we will only get involved with a pharmaceutical company and
at the stages where we can't do any more work,
we can't the sort of work that's required to do.
We can't fund one hundred million dollars for a stage
three trial, so it has to be taken over by
the companies to do that.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Is there and what recent technology is there that's allowed
researchers to be more effective with their research? Is there
sort of hardware that's made your job easier?
Speaker 3 (31:29):
Yes, The hardware gets better and better each time. There's
also a much better availability of being able to find
out what other people are doing through the Internet, and
so we can collaborate much more easily than we used
to do. I mean, in my early days, I spent
hundreds of hours flying to different parts of the world
(31:51):
to talk with other people, and now it can all
be done at home, which is much of an advantage.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
Of the Magic Zoom meeting. So you guys could consider. Actually,
I was just wondering how things would have been interrupted
during the whole isolation phase of COVID. I guess how
did what happened in the science community around that time, I.
Speaker 3 (32:10):
Think slowed down quite a bit. You still have to
work together at some point, side by side. You couldn't
do that.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
Okay, let's take let's take a call Liz.
Speaker 5 (32:22):
Hello you Hi Dea, Hello dear. Something that I heard
was that Massy University had was working on some enzymes,
as I understand it, that will stop cancer metastasizing. Do
(32:47):
you know?
Speaker 2 (32:48):
Okay, yep, yeah, Sorry, your lines a bit dodgy there, Liz,
But I think Liz was saying, she said that Massive
is doing something about stopping research that's on something that
stops cancers from metastasizing. You've got any inside running on that.
Speaker 3 (33:02):
No, I'm afraid I haven't. I haven't heard of that.
I don't know of the specific work that you're talking about. Sorry.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
No, hey, the other thing you mentioned when we were
chatting in the break A couple of things. But you
guys using the same sort of technology using for cancer,
you're doing something on tuberculosis. Is that right?
Speaker 4 (33:21):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (33:22):
It is. I mean that was I had a chance
meeting with the director of the Global Fund for Tuberculosis
in New York a few years back, two thousand and eight,
and we got together and he and just decided we
would Although we were focused and funded to do cancer,
(33:44):
we have the same technologies we have can apply to
other diseases. And provided that we got that totally funded
by them and no one else other cancerciety was happy
with us doing that.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
So is this a treatment? Is not a prevention, it's
a treatment.
Speaker 3 (34:00):
This is a treatment. Yeah, I mean the cancer I
mean tuberculosis has kills normally one hundred, I mean between
one to two million people of the year every around
the world. And the treatment for late stage disease, which
is which is often what it is when it's when
(34:21):
people present has been very very difficult. Or recently we've
been working with the Global Alliance for TV it developed
a drug TBJ eight seven six it's got no better
name yet, which is now and we're now in clinical
trials worldwide and it's clearly effective.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (34:40):
And the cure rates have gone from thirty five percent
when this is drug is used up to about ninety
five percent.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
God, that must be I mean, that must be quite
a thrill when you.
Speaker 3 (34:52):
So that for us, although it's off our major them,
for the scientists involved, it's a major it's a major thing.
We are very very proud of it.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
I guess the other thing we were chatting out the
break is that it's you know, the New Zealanders tend
to be pretty modest and obviously you're not going to
talk about your own successes. But now that you've retired,
you can talk about the people who are still involved
in cancer research in New Zealand. I mean, what would
you how? Our scientists are pretty awesome, aren't they.
Speaker 3 (35:21):
It's almost impossible to judge when you're judging yourself. Yeah,
but I would say the answer that is absolutely correct.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (35:30):
I mean we're a very small group. We've delivered seventeen
new drugs to clinical trials.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
That's pretty I think that's a big deal. Is it fair?
You might not look like this comparison, but for instance,
apparently in per capita we're the best Olympic nation in
the world. Are we sort of pretty awesome when it
came in that similar respect when it comes to science
and cancer development treatments.
Speaker 3 (35:54):
I think that's a very hard call to make.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
Well, of course, it's not comparing apples with oranges or
something apples with apples. I guess quick question here before
we go to the break again. Somebody's suggested that's suspicious
that if a study that you're working on gets funded
by a pharmaceutical company and it doesn't pan out, do
those results still get published or this person says, if
(36:22):
the results don't fall in favor of the pharmaceutical company
funding the study, they don't have to make it available
to the public, which is implying that some of the
failures get covered up, or what do we know about that?
Speaker 3 (36:34):
I don't think that's I mean, as far as we're concerned,
our collaborations with pharmaceutical companies in the later stages of
the development of a drug have never stopped us from
being able to publish the results scientifically, which is what
we need for.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
Our careers exactly. Okay, so that's yes. I think that's
a good response to our text. Right. We're going to
be back in just a moment. It's ten to five
News Talks there be but before we go to the break,
just before we go to the break, that's a note
to my producer not to hit the button so quickly.
You can text the word donate to two four four
two and you'll get it. You'll get taken to a
(37:13):
link and you can select your donation because it is
Daffodil Day on Friday, the thirtieth of August. But the
donation drive is underway right now in support of the
Cancer Society, So get into it right now and we'll
be back in just mo It's ten to five News
Talks d B. We welcome back to the Weekend Collective.
(37:41):
This has been a special health hub with Professor Sibil Denny.
He's a former director of the Auckland Cancer Society Research Center.
Just chatting about the developments and science and everything. But
it's all in support of Daffodil Day. So you can
text donate to two four four two and click a
link and select your donation amount. A quick text from
someone saying I have stage four cancel cancer and on
trial drugs. Unfortunately, I've just tuned and can I re
(38:03):
listen to this program somewhere? I'd love to be able
to listen to the full program. And that's a perfect
question for me, because yes you can. We get the
pop podcast up and running not long after the show,
and you just look for the Weekend Collective and this
will be online. You can also go to the news
Talk ZB website and hear the fascinating conversation with Bill.
But there's not much time left Bill, So I'm just
(38:24):
going to say I think that while it says retired,
you are technically retired, but what's what are you up to?
What's retired?
Speaker 3 (38:35):
Look Black, I seem to occupy most of my mornings
with scientific work. I'm an editor of two major journals,
and the requests to review papers and make decisions flooded
each morning, and that really keeps me occupied till lunchtime.
(38:56):
Then if the weather is decent, I can get out
in the garden or go for a long walk or something.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
Okay, so you do have a bit more time at
your dispose. I do, and I appreciate it's because it
doesn't sound like it's complete. It's partial retirement, really, isn't it.
If you're you know, you're editing journals and things.
Speaker 3 (39:11):
Yeah, this is true. I mean the still keeps me
linked and that that's for me is important to do.
Speaker 4 (39:17):
That is it?
Speaker 2 (39:18):
Also? Is it quite fun editing journals and looking at
papers and the research that's coming out. Is it sort
of a bit intimidating as well, because you probably have
to say yes to some and no to others.
Speaker 3 (39:27):
I have to say yes. I have to say yes
or no depending on what the reviewers think and depending
on what I think. And yeah, it and sometimes you
get calls from frustrated authors who have been turned down. Okay,
but no, it's it's exciting you keep abreast of what's
going on in the scientific world in your area.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
Yeah, and so you're and you from what you from
what you've seen and from your career and everything, you're
excited about where science is heading at the moment with cancer.
Speaker 3 (39:55):
Yes, yes, absolutely, I mean we have a wider range
of more useful drugs to choose from than we ever
had before. Of course, there are issues like funding and
cost of those drugs which have to be balanced down.
But the science is going very well.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
Excellent, Hey Bill, thanks so much for your time. Time flies,
isn't it it?
Speaker 3 (40:15):
It really does.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
Yeah, we were thinking it's an hour. It's a long time,
but it's over in a flash when you're.
Speaker 3 (40:20):
On talking quicker than even in the borough.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
Indeed, Okay, by the way, as I say, I've mentioned it,
but text four four two the text weird. Donate and
go from there. Thanks Bill, and we'll be back shortly
with smart money. Andrew Besquin from harber Asset Management will
be joining.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
Us for more from the Weekend Collective. Listen live to
news Talks it'd be weekends from three pm, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talk SEDB.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
And welcome back to the show. This is the Weekend
Collective and I'm Tim Beverage and this is the Health Hub.
We want your we'd love to have your cause on
this on ten eighteen text. But this health Hub is
a sort of bit of a special health hub because
August is well known as the Cancer Society's big fundraising month.
(00:55):
Again it's once again it's supported by A and Z
and Daffodil Day is well, it's it's not too far away.
It's Friday, the thirtieth of August. But you don't have
to wait till then. If you're in a position to
help the one in three Kiwis who are affected by cancer,
you can actually donate now. You can text the word
donate two two double four to two. Okay, so the
(01:18):
number is two double four to two. You text the
word donate and then what happens is you'll get a
link and you can select your donation amount and the
donations from Kiwi's help with research into all sorts of cancers.
And it's a Daffodil Day soon, so good time to
find a bit more about that research. So joining us
in the studio is a very special guest. He's a
past director of the Auckland Cancer Society Research Center. I'm
(01:41):
going to read a bit of his CV out. Then
we're going to dig into a bit more about Professor
Sibil Denny. But his interests include the design and evaluation
of small molecule drugs. He's been involved in the development
of fourteen drugs to clinical trial. He'll be embarrassed if
I read out as awards, but he's got a few.
He's serve build Any. For a start, he's received the
Rutherford Medal of the Royal Society of New Zealand, the
(02:04):
Adrian Albert Meda of the UK Royal Society of Chemistry,
in the twenty fourteen Medicinal Chemistry Award of the American
Chemical Society. Anyway, I think the gist is if you've
got some questions, or you're interested in the science and
the development of cancer cures and technology and research, then
(02:24):
this is the hour for you. So joining me in
the studios, Professor to bild Any, I'm just going to
call you Bill, good Bill, how are you.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
I'm fine, that's the best way to do it.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Excellent. Firstly, just to find out a bit about you.
I mean, I did read out the awards because I
thought we should we should start by polishing your apple
a little bit. But how did you you have you've
recently retired and you've had a lengthy career. But how
did you get started in science full stop?
Speaker 4 (02:48):
Well?
Speaker 3 (02:48):
I got started in science because I was always interested
in chemistry for some particular reason, even when I was
a child, and I remember I collected my own group
of chemicals and I had to shed out the back
which I made explosions and various dangerous things. My parents
were very accepting of that, and I followed that right
(03:12):
through into into school and then into university and ended
up at the University of Oxford, where I spent three years.
And at that particular, at the end of that time,
we started to look around for jobs for me in
the UK, and I was expecting to go maybe into
a pharmaceutical company there, and then I got a call
(03:34):
from someone, and it was a letter in those days
from Bruce Kane, who was then director of the Auckland
Kancer Society Research Center, wanted to know if I would
like to come back and join the center.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
So how did you go from sort of it sounds
like you're blowing things up in your shed, a little
bit like Sir Peter Beck, except you didn't go into rockets.
You went into into sort of medicinal chemistry. When when
did you When did your interest refine from you know,
your initial undergraduate studies of doing I'm guessing you did chemistry.
(04:08):
When did that refine into something that became useful for
medical research?
Speaker 4 (04:15):
Well?
Speaker 3 (04:15):
I thought I was interested in chemistry because of what
you can do with it and how you can develop
new molecules, and that was what I was doing in Oxford.
And when I got the I hadn't really thought about
cancer research until I got the letter from Bruce Kane
asking me would I like to join the Cancer Research
(04:37):
Center because they were developing new drugs therapy. How long
ago was that, Oh, nineteen sixty, I'm nineteen seventy something.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
Like that, criky.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
Yeah, it's been a long journey, but a very very
rewarding one.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
And what was the state of cancer research and treatment
back when you started.
Speaker 3 (04:58):
Well, it was a lot less effective than it is
now because in the last twenty thirty years, a lot
of work going on into developing drugs which are not
simply sell killing agents, but more or less this is
designed to select and treat specific cancers, so there's a
much more specificity now in the therapy.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
What's the most It might be difficult to answer them
these questions because you've had such a lengthy career, but
is there anything that stands out to you through the
course of your career as being the most exciting sort
of development or the most a real moment where you've
got got where you've thought this is, this is this
is a real game changer when it comes to treating cancer.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
It is a difficult question to answer, probably whenever we
succeed in getting a new drugs through into clinical trial,
probably because we've spent ten fifteen years working on refining
that to the stage where it has been accepted by
the authorities and can be used in Man. And for example,
we have now a drug and trial in Auckland Hospital
(06:07):
Tarlocksotten which has been developed by a couple of people
in the lab and that's taken them ten years to
get it to this point. So getting a drug over
the line the authority is accepted into even the first
stage trials is a big moment for everybody.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Uh, and what's that drug particularly, what's this, what's what's
that one about? What's the named treating.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
We're still working that out. But the drugs drug is
one of a particular type which we call a it's
it's a pro drug in the sense that when you
give it cancer drug to people, the drug distributes everywhere
in the body and you end up with the side
effects that are inevitable from drug treatment because it doesn't
(06:55):
all it doesn't just go to the cancer. So with
this with tarsott is a pro drug which is circulates
all the around than the body, but it's relatively non
toxic and it's only when it gets into the low
oxygen regions of tumors that it turns itself on.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
To be toxic. Okay, So in other words, from the
from the layperson's point of view, I've always under does
it still come under the headline of chemotherapy? Oh, it
is certainly that because chema. Well, actually, let's just so
people know, because chemotherapy in a way has a stigma
because you think you're up for chemotherapy. Therefore saygabidy, you'rre here,
sagabidy your health and hopefully the drug will just kill
(07:36):
your disease rather than you would be. Some people's fear
about chemotherapy, and is this one where it's more targeted? Well,
what is chemotherapy, I'll interrupt myself.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
Human therapy is simply the treatment of cancer with small
molecular drugs. Okay, So, and as you say, those drugs
generally distribute everywhere in the body, and they do damage
to normal cells as well. I mean, perhaps still lesser extent,
but in the general course of events, you do get
(08:07):
side effects because the drug is distributed everywhere. It's killing
cancer cells, but there's also a concombatant cell kill in
various other areas in the body, especially where cells are
turning over rapidly.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
That in a way would that be I'm going to
ask some dumb questions, by the way, because I'm not
a scientist, But to me, over the last few years,
I've got the impression that the treatments that are available
are more and more about just the drugs being smarter
and being able to what you're saying is a pro
what did you say pro so? In other words, so
(08:49):
it's not that's not just we're going to carpet bomb everything.
Now it's a bit more precision sort of targeting, and
is that maybe the biggest advance, one of the bigger
advances in chemotherapy.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
There's two sorts of advances along the lines that you
say is we're developing molecules that are much more specific
for particular cancer types, and so that means we can
develop drugs to target cancer A or cancer B. And
it's a different drug. It's not simply we've got six
(09:21):
drugs and we give it to every patient. But the
other thing is, as we've said before, drugs, once they
get into the body distribute everywhere, and so the idea
of a pro drug is to have it inactive until
it enters the tumor cells. And we managed to do
that by recognizing that in tumors there is very low
(09:44):
oxygen levels. So if you can design a drug which
is not active in high oxygen levels but active in
low oxygen levels, then you will target cancer specifically. And
this is one of the major areas of interest in
our laboratory.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
When so you talked about the colleagues who have developed this,
it's going to clinical trials. So clinical trials means it's
going to go into people. Is that right, that's correct.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
There are three sorts of clinical trials. The first stage
one where you're simply evaluating the drug in people to
be concerned about toxicity efforts and things like that.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Yep. And what's stage two?
Speaker 3 (10:25):
Stage two really is when you give the drug to
a larger number of people, but all with one specific
cancer type, so you can see whether this has general
effects beneficial effects in the cancer itself.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
And stage three is three is what when it's basically
a larger proportion of people.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
Or Stage three as rall is that it's a larger
proportion of people, usually around one thousand people, So you
want a broad spectrum of people with this particular disease
to see whether the drug is consistently effected.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
And is that usually the stage where you're you're pretty
confident that it's a safe drug. You just want to
see how effective it is or is it still considering
issues of safety.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
You've always been You've always got to consider issues of
safety because cancer drugs are generally designed to kill cells. Yeah,
and so with that, your safety has always got to
be a major concern.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Okay, So in the journey of from ten years from
developing a drug to going on clinical trials, what what
is the first year or two of that sort of
research look like, is it again dumb questions? But is
it sort of Petri dish sort of stuff?
Speaker 3 (11:43):
Yeah, absolutely it is.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
It's okay.
Speaker 3 (11:48):
The chemist are in their lab devising all these interesting
new molecules that are new and they look exciting and
they're interesting to make. Then we test them all in cells,
just in cells and a petri dish, and most of
them fall over at that point, and.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
Now they basically don't do what they've got. Do you
have some tumors or something you introduce a drug to
correct and you go, let's see what happens, and you know, oh,
that didn't work.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
Yeah, that's right. I mean that's an awful lot of
what goes on in the lab. No, this didn't work.
Let's do something.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Else if you But just another dumb question. I'm going
to specialize in dumb questions. So when you are say,
you talk about having drugs that can thrive in a
low oxygen environment and that's those are the ones that
are going to target the cells. Does that mean what
sort of if you're doing it in a petri dish?
(12:35):
That sounds like it'd be quite a challenge because you
don't want to introduce oxygen at that stage either do
you you want it to have a low oxygen environment
in that peatra dish? So does that mean that the
equipment you've what does that mean in terms of equipment?
Speaker 3 (12:48):
Or you can simply put the peachradish in a low
oxygen environment?
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Yeah? What's a low oxygen environment?
Speaker 3 (12:54):
Or oxygen levels below about one or two percent?
Speaker 4 (12:56):
No?
Speaker 2 (12:56):
I mean that is that just so? Is that in
a specific chamber or something stripped out of there?
Speaker 3 (13:03):
We have the equipment to do that.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Yeah, okay, okay, before my brain needs a rest and
a cup of teaen to lie down, one more question
and we'll take your cause. By the way, if you've
got any questions around the science or if for professor
Sir Bill Denny, then this is your chance. Because we
a lot of the time when we do we talk
about health and cancer treatments and all sorts of things
on talkback. We don't have an expert in the room.
(13:26):
So we've got one and now so you can give
him a call. He's not a doctor, by the way,
in terms of a medical doctor. It's about the science
of developing molecules to treat cancers. If you've got any questions,
we'd love to hear from you. On eight hundred and
eighty ten eighty. By the way, I'm going to mention
it a few times probably, But if you want to
donate to for Daffodil Day, and it's thirtieth of August,
(13:47):
but rarely from now on, it's open. It's supported by
A and Z. All you need to do is text
the word donate to two four four two and there'll
be link you'll get and you can select your donation amount. Actually,
I'll come back with my interesting question about where we're
at in terms of New Zealand research in just a moment.
But this is the health up on the Weekend Collective.
It's twenty past four. News Talk said, b give us
(14:09):
a caller, you can text your question.
Speaker 4 (14:15):
Don't show over, don't colder, don't stuck caring.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
He mean welcome, you're not and welcome back to the
health Hub. I'm Tim Beverage and this is this is
a health hub looking forward to Daffodil Day on the
thirtieth of August. And my guess is Professor of Bill Denny.
He's former director of the Auckland Cancer Society Research Center
and we're just chatting basically about the scientific advancements when
it comes to treating cancers. But of course if you
(14:43):
want to support the work that has done to address
the challenge that cancer presents to right around New Zealand,
then you can text two four four two in the
word donate tense text donate to two four four two.
You'll get a link and you can select your donation amount. Bill.
How good are we in New Zealand at cancer research?
Speaker 3 (15:06):
Well, I think we're very good, and I'm not speaking
just about our own research center, but there are groups
the Madigan Institute, there are groups in the University of
Otago which are carrying out a large number of which
are covering a large number of areas in cancer research,
which is a very broad area. So we've got in
most of the universities, we've got groups that are very
(15:29):
important and hooked up with groups overseas as well.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Has there been a big change in terms of science
ific research in our capabilities in New Zealand. So for instance,
I mean the analogy i'd use as everyone assumes that
everything a lot of the big advancements happen in Europe
or America. But of course now we've got on the
rocket science thing we've got. I mean, that's an obvious thing.
But does that reflect generally the science community in New
(15:58):
Zealand that actually, you know what, we are punching well
above our weight.
Speaker 3 (16:03):
I think it's fair to say that very hard to
it's very hard to evaluate. We can't evaluate ourselves easily
against the United States, for example, because we're very small
and they're very big, but we have a presence there certainly.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Yeah, are there what are the things that I mean,
I don't know if you can talk about the research
that you're most excited about now, because I know a
lot of it's technical. But are there particular developments going
on now which you think, Wow, this is really pretty
amazing or is it just every time a drug comes
to trial you go, there's another victory that's exciting.
Speaker 3 (16:39):
I think the research is much more targeted now because
we know so much more about the myriad enzymes that
are present in cells which sometimes go crazy, and we
can target them much more specifically. For example, there are
about one hundred different kinase enzymes and there are people
(17:01):
developing drugs specifically for each one of those. So I
think in future the drugs will even will be even
better targeted than they are. Now we've made a big
advance in that already are there.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
While you're becoming more targeted with the drugs that you're creating,
does that mean that each drug you're creating treats fewer
cancers though they're more specific to each type of cancer.
So if you're a cancer suffering, you've got to again
dumb questions. So chemotherapy seemed to me, in my lay understanding,
(17:36):
to be something that was more broadly. You might have
one chemotherapy that would targets several different cancers. I don't know,
But now you've got this particular chemotherapy which is targeted
for this particular cancer. That's your drug.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
We're going down that line. I mean, that is exactly
the area in which is being developed most vigously at
the moment. There's a large number of new drugs are
coming out. They're very specific for particular cell types, they're
very specific for particular enzymes, and so speaking, now it's
much easier to rapidly determine which enzymes in a particular
(18:11):
cancer has gone haywire and select the drugs that can
treat that. So treatment is much more selective much more
patient selective than it than it was before.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
Okay, how do you how do you fund your research?
How do you get the money for it? Is it
things like Daffidilt Day? Where does the money come from?
Speaker 3 (18:32):
Certainly the Cancer Society Auckland Cancer Society has set up
the center in the first place and has always been
a significant funder of it. But we also raise our
own funding through writing, writing grants for applications, and in
particular we've also had close relationships with several big pharmaceutical
(18:55):
companies who've been interested in the particular compounds we're developing,
and we've had a good support from them as well.
So we have a range of support from different areas.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
What role does do What role does the charitable side
play when it comes to initiatives like Daffodil Day? How
important is the biggest thing about the money you raise
or is it more the awareness or is it a
package of the whole lot? In terms of this, what
daffodil Daffodil Day means well, deafit to.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
Day is critical for the cancer societies because they do
lots of things other than just support our center. They
also run the main lodge here in Auckland where patients
who are receiving treatment can get free board, and they
support a fleet of nurses who go around to treat
(19:48):
people at home with follow up therapy. So there's a
lot of things that they do in a part apart
from partially funding the center.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Does the treatment of cancers mean that also that cancers
can more cancers can be treated. I mean, I don't know.
We still do we still have the four stage model
of cancer one stage one, two, three, and four, And
does it are we able to treat cancers later effectively?
Speaker 3 (20:16):
That's getting a little bit outside my expertise, but my
sense is that that is certainly true. The drugs with it,
there are more drugs, they're more specific to particular targets,
and so you could if you can combine a number
of drugs to best target a particular cancer in a patience,
(20:37):
then that is that is an advance.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Yeah. I've got a few texts here which may or
maybe either in or outside of your area of expertise,
because when people hear doctor sud BUILDINGI, they think that
they think that maybe you're going to give them a
diagnosis on And I'll point out to anyone who's texting
that we I'll read some of the texts and if
(21:00):
we can answer them, sure, then then maybe some threat
of conversation will come out of them. So brace yourself. Okay, Oh,
this one's just an observation. Relates to my previous comment.
I have a friend who has stage four cancer. I
believe that used to be pretty much that much a
death sentence. But how times have changed and medicine has
improved that you can survive that level of cancer. And
(21:21):
that's sort of what we're saying. Isn't it even a
stage four cancer?
Speaker 3 (21:24):
I would agree with that. Yeah, I think across the
spectrum there are more and better drugs that are more selective.
Although there's a limit to how many drugs can be
funded obviously, but looking at the field as a whole,
we're better off now than we've ever been in terms
(21:44):
of a bib ability to treat the disease.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Do you think what you get to a stage? Again?
I know you probably won't like guesswork because you're a scientist. Actually, okay,
I'm going to ask a dumb question. How much when
it comes to establishing a clinical trial is a scientist
going I see this works here, this has worked, This
has been an installary research, and it's pretty much you
just switch on that creative part of your brain. I
(22:07):
wonder if that drug might work here. In other words,
in the early stages, how much guesswork is there as
opposed to just evidence, evidence, evidence evidence. Therefore, we're going
to do this next. Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 3 (22:22):
I think there's a lot of guesswork. Oh, I think
you have to have you have to have guesswork inspired
guess work is the basis of science.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
Well, well, it's because let's try this that doesn't work,
and therefore that doesn't work. Okay, so oh good, because
I was relieved. That was one of my dumb questions.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
Again, No, it's that's that's the essence of science.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
Well, because this is a slightly broader question. But where
I was chatting with we're talking about career choices with kids,
and and there was a comment made I think it
was I'm not going to get involved in politics, don't
worry that. There was a comment made about from our
prime minister that the arts might need to take a
bit of a back seat, and I was thinking, well,
hang on a minute. Even some of our greatest scientific
(23:02):
minds have a creative bent. Because you have to have
those creative moments where you think were you're thinking outside
the box. In fact, science has to be thinking outside
the box all the time, isn't it right?
Speaker 3 (23:12):
Absolutely, that's where the great changes come from.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
Oh god, that's a relief to Okay, this is a
specific one. I'm not sure if you've able to help,
but I'll read it anyway. Hi, thank you for your time.
What further research are you aware of any research that's
been done with pre existing vulva liken slerosis and high
time risk of vulver cancer with this autoimmune disease? How
(23:36):
common is that cancer and is there any research going
into it that you know about.
Speaker 3 (23:41):
I don't know of that cancer, which seems to me
to be relatively rare. Therefore, I really don't know what
research is going into that specific area. I'm sorry, I can't.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
No, that's all right. What about prostate cancer? Do you
know much about what's going on with because that because
there's the big debate that you people say, oh, well,
you're better you die with prostate cancer than treat it,
and is the care you are better? Are there any
anything particular in prostate cancer that's going on right now?
Speaker 3 (24:09):
Look? I don't specifically know of unique treatments for prostate cancer.
I mean, I can't really answer that question.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
Yeah, okay, here's one about just thought of a good question,
specific drugs coming out, Will we see them or will
they be out of reach of New Zealanders because of pricing?
And I guess that's in asure around farmac. But any
comment on that, well.
Speaker 3 (24:38):
The only comment is that the more drugs that are
collectively developed wherever they're developed, that are more and more specific,
the better it is for everybody. The question of whether
we can afford it is really a completely different question,
and we would I mean, obviously we prefer to have
(24:59):
a vigorous research area. Yeah, that is exploring everything. Yeah,
but price then becomes a problem.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
I know, Well you mentioned that, so you get funding
from a variety of resources. And as you say, you
mentioned that Daffodil Days about doing so much more for
the cancer Society, supporting people when their need accommodation and
to visit centers for cancer treatment and that holistic sort
of support I guess for cancer suffers in their families.
By the way, I'm going to keep plugging this if
(25:31):
you want to text two four four two text the
word donate and you can click a link and select
your donation for Daffodil Day, which may be on Friday,
the thirtieth of August. But you can get stuck into
it right now. And I've completely forgotten the question I
was going to ask there. Maybe that's a that's a
moment for me to take a break and I'll come
(25:52):
and work out what i was going to ask, because
I've got a truck load of questions. If you have
any questions for Professor Sir Bill Denny, he's former director
of the Auckland Cancer Society Research Center, you can call
or text now eight hundred eighty ten eighty or text
nine two niney two and back in a moment. It's
twenty four minutes to five News talks 'b Yes, and
(26:13):
did you know that one in six New Zealanders experience
hearing loss and choosing the right hearing solution for your
individual needs is important. Your local Triton Hearing team will
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(26:55):
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Speaker 1 (27:07):
Helping you get on top of your busy life. Tim
Beveridge on the Weekend Collector News.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
Talk said, be yes and welcome back to the show.
This is the Health Hub and my guest is a
special guest, professor Sir Bill Denny. He's former director of
the Auckland Cancer Society Research Center. And the reason that
Bill's with me is to have a chat about the
science and just to help us get a bit more
of an understanding of their amazing work that our New
Zealand scientists are doing. And also that the Cancer Society does,
(27:36):
and that to that end, with Daffodil Day approaching on
the Friday the thirtieth, I'm going to keep pushing this
that you text the word donate to two four four two.
You can click the link and select your donation now.
And as Bill was saying earlier on that the work
of the Cancer Society is so important and funding from
Daffodil Day because it's not just we're not just about
(27:56):
supporting science, it's about supporting the holistic needs of families
and the cancer sufferers who have to travel or whatever
around people who do with that what is still a
very challenging illness despite the scientific advances. So Bill, a
quick question for you is such a thing as a
quick question? I don't know you mentioned that the funding,
(28:17):
so you know, the funding from that you apply for
from government and for different funds, but sometimes you get
funded by pharmaceutical companies. What makes does it? What does
it mean once a pharmaceutical company funds something, does that
mean that they take complete ownership of the results of
(28:37):
that as well? Or how does that all work in
Because most people's concern is, oh, those pharmaceutical companies are
going to put the price up in we're never going
to be afford our treatment. But of course we need
their money to fund the research too, don't we.
Speaker 3 (28:50):
We do, And it's only the companies that have the
funding to take drugs through the necessary government mandated processes
before it can become available to the public. And that,
you know, for doing the stage three trials for a
(29:11):
new drug is one hundred million US dollars and so
that can't be funded by well, the scientific groups.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
Goodness, we get.
Speaker 3 (29:23):
We have had in the past very productive collaborations with
pharmaceutical companies who've come in to us and said, we're
interested in the sort of work that we see you've
been doing from your publications. We have things in the
same area. Could we do some work together, and then
we get funded to do that, We build our relationships
(29:44):
with those companies and it's all positive all round.
Speaker 5 (29:48):
Man.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
That's a lot of money, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (29:49):
But yes, well, I mean we can get a drug
to phase one perhaps, but phase two, phase three, the
companies have to do that.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
How much just okay, one hundred million for stage three trials,
what's it cost for stage four?
Speaker 3 (30:05):
Well? Really, then you're stage three is really the major
last stage that's required before a drug will get registered. Okay,
So there are stage four trials when there are really
their retrospective trials of drugs that.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
Are already okay, right, so stage three is the important one.
Speaker 4 (30:26):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
If New Zealand scientists are developing a drug which is
effective in treating cancer and it's been funded by a
big pharmaceutical company, does the fact that it's been invented
or developed by New Zealand technology, does that mean that
it's more it's ease more easily accessible by New Zealand
(30:49):
patients or does that have nothing to do with it.
Speaker 3 (30:51):
I don't think it's possible to do that because often
we will only get involved with a pharmaceutical company and
at the stages where we can't do any more work,
we can't the sort of work that's required to do.
We can't fund one hundred million dollars for a stage
three trial, so it has to be taken over by
the companies to do that.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Is there and what recent technology is there that's allowed
researchers to be more effective with their research? Is there
sort of hardware that's made your job easier?
Speaker 3 (31:29):
Yes, The hardware gets better and better each time. There's
also a much better availability of being able to find
out what other people are doing through the Internet, and
so we can collaborate much more easily than we used
to do. I mean, in my early days, I spent
hundreds of hours flying to different parts of the world
(31:51):
to talk with other people, and now it can all
be done at home, which is much of an advantage.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
Of the Magic Zoom meeting. So you guys could consider. Actually,
I was just wondering how things would have been interrupted
during the whole isolation phase of COVID. I guess how
did what happened in the science community around that time, I.
Speaker 3 (32:10):
Think slowed down quite a bit. You still have to
work together at some point, side by side. You couldn't
do that.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
Okay, let's take let's take a call Liz.
Speaker 5 (32:22):
Hello you Hi Dea, Hello dear. Something that I heard
was that Massy University had was working on some enzymes,
as I understand it, that will stop cancer metastasizing. Do
(32:47):
you know?
Speaker 2 (32:48):
Okay, yep, yeah, Sorry, your lines a bit dodgy there, Liz,
But I think Liz was saying, she said that Massive
is doing something about stopping research that's on something that
stops cancers from metastasizing. You've got any inside running on that.
Speaker 3 (33:02):
No, I'm afraid I haven't. I haven't heard of that.
I don't know of the specific work that you're talking about. Sorry.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
No, hey, the other thing you mentioned when we were
chatting in the break A couple of things. But you
guys using the same sort of technology using for cancer,
you're doing something on tuberculosis. Is that right?
Speaker 4 (33:21):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (33:22):
It is. I mean that was I had a chance
meeting with the director of the Global Fund for Tuberculosis
in New York a few years back, two thousand and eight,
and we got together and he and just decided we
would Although we were focused and funded to do cancer,
(33:44):
we have the same technologies we have can apply to
other diseases. And provided that we got that totally funded
by them and no one else other cancerciety was happy
with us doing that.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
So is this a treatment? Is not a prevention, it's
a treatment.
Speaker 3 (34:00):
This is a treatment. Yeah, I mean the cancer I
mean tuberculosis has kills normally one hundred, I mean between
one to two million people of the year every around
the world. And the treatment for late stage disease, which
is which is often what it is when it's when
(34:21):
people present has been very very difficult. Or recently we've
been working with the Global Alliance for TV it developed
a drug TBJ eight seven six it's got no better
name yet, which is now and we're now in clinical
trials worldwide and it's clearly effective.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (34:40):
And the cure rates have gone from thirty five percent
when this is drug is used up to about ninety
five percent.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
God, that must be I mean, that must be quite
a thrill when you.
Speaker 3 (34:52):
So that for us, although it's off our major them,
for the scientists involved, it's a major it's a major thing.
We are very very proud of it.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
I guess the other thing we were chatting out the
break is that it's you know, the New Zealanders tend
to be pretty modest and obviously you're not going to
talk about your own successes. But now that you've retired,
you can talk about the people who are still involved
in cancer research in New Zealand. I mean, what would
you how? Our scientists are pretty awesome, aren't they.
Speaker 3 (35:21):
It's almost impossible to judge when you're judging yourself. Yeah,
but I would say the answer that is absolutely correct.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (35:30):
I mean we're a very small group. We've delivered seventeen
new drugs to clinical trials.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
That's pretty I think that's a big deal. Is it fair?
You might not look like this comparison, but for instance,
apparently in per capita we're the best Olympic nation in
the world. Are we sort of pretty awesome when it
came in that similar respect when it comes to science
and cancer development treatments.
Speaker 3 (35:54):
I think that's a very hard call to make.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
Well, of course, it's not comparing apples with oranges or
something apples with apples. I guess quick question here before
we go to the break again. Somebody's suggested that's suspicious
that if a study that you're working on gets funded
by a pharmaceutical company and it doesn't pan out, do
those results still get published or this person says, if
(36:22):
the results don't fall in favor of the pharmaceutical company
funding the study, they don't have to make it available
to the public, which is implying that some of the
failures get covered up, or what do we know about that?
Speaker 3 (36:34):
I don't think that's I mean, as far as we're concerned,
our collaborations with pharmaceutical companies in the later stages of
the development of a drug have never stopped us from
being able to publish the results scientifically, which is what
we need for.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
Our careers exactly. Okay, so that's yes. I think that's
a good response to our text. Right. We're going to
be back in just a moment. It's ten to five
News Talks there be but before we go to the break,
just before we go to the break, that's a note
to my producer not to hit the button so quickly.
You can text the word donate to two four four
two and you'll get it. You'll get taken to a
(37:13):
link and you can select your donation because it is
Daffodil Day on Friday, the thirtieth of August. But the
donation drive is underway right now in support of the
Cancer Society, So get into it right now and we'll
be back in just mo It's ten to five News
Talks d B. We welcome back to the Weekend Collective.
(37:41):
This has been a special health hub with Professor Sibil Denny.
He's a former director of the Auckland Cancer Society Research Center.
Just chatting about the developments and science and everything. But
it's all in support of Daffodil Day. So you can
text donate to two four four two and click a
link and select your donation amount. A quick text from
someone saying I have stage four cancel cancer and on
trial drugs. Unfortunately, I've just tuned and can I re
(38:03):
listen to this program somewhere? I'd love to be able
to listen to the full program. And that's a perfect
question for me, because yes you can. We get the
pop podcast up and running not long after the show,
and you just look for the Weekend Collective and this
will be online. You can also go to the news
Talk ZB website and hear the fascinating conversation with Bill.
But there's not much time left Bill, So I'm just
(38:24):
going to say I think that while it says retired,
you are technically retired, but what's what are you up to?
What's retired?
Speaker 3 (38:35):
Look Black, I seem to occupy most of my mornings
with scientific work. I'm an editor of two major journals,
and the requests to review papers and make decisions flooded
each morning, and that really keeps me occupied till lunchtime.
(38:56):
Then if the weather is decent, I can get out
in the garden or go for a long walk or something.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
Okay, so you do have a bit more time at
your dispose. I do, and I appreciate it's because it
doesn't sound like it's complete. It's partial retirement, really, isn't it.
If you're you know, you're editing journals and things.
Speaker 3 (39:11):
Yeah, this is true. I mean the still keeps me
linked and that that's for me is important to do.
Speaker 4 (39:17):
That is it?
Speaker 2 (39:18):
Also? Is it quite fun editing journals and looking at
papers and the research that's coming out. Is it sort
of a bit intimidating as well, because you probably have
to say yes to some and no to others.
Speaker 3 (39:27):
I have to say yes. I have to say yes
or no depending on what the reviewers think and depending
on what I think. And yeah, it and sometimes you
get calls from frustrated authors who have been turned down. Okay,
but no, it's it's exciting you keep abreast of what's
going on in the scientific world in your area.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
Yeah, and so you're and you from what you from
what you've seen and from your career and everything, you're
excited about where science is heading at the moment with cancer.
Speaker 3 (39:55):
Yes, yes, absolutely, I mean we have a wider range
of more useful drugs to choose from than we ever
had before. Of course, there are issues like funding and
cost of those drugs which have to be balanced down.
But the science is going very well.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
Excellent, Hey Bill, thanks so much for your time. Time flies,
isn't it it?
Speaker 3 (40:15):
It really does.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
Yeah, we were thinking it's an hour. It's a long time,
but it's over in a flash when you're.
Speaker 3 (40:20):
On talking quicker than even in the borough.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
Indeed, Okay, by the way, as I say, I've mentioned it,
but text four four two the text weird. Donate and
go from there. Thanks Bill, and we'll be back shortly
with smart money. Andrew Besquin from harber Asset Management will
be joining.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
Us for more from the Weekend Collective. Listen live to
news Talks it'd be weekends from three pm, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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