Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from News Talks ed B.
Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
It's time for all the attitude, all the opinion, all
the information, all the debates of the dow the Leighton
Smith Podcast powered by News Talks ed B.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Now welcome to what we call the best of the
Laton Smith Podcast. This being the first for the holiday season,
and we look at one of the best and most
interesting interviews that we've done. Tony O'Brien. He was born
and raised in New Zealand. His life followed a fascinating path.
He worked in Australia and Britain and Canada, Hungary and
(00:49):
beyond in a variety of capacities. In his work, he
did not have a plan, just took advantage of opportunities
as they presented.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
That was a quote.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
He is intelligent, articulate and successful, but also modest. We
discuss on this particular interview us many different aspects of
New Zealand's current circumstances and issues, starting with education. Now.
This interview was played on July tenth in Podcasts two
(01:21):
forty six and if you like what you're here, you
might want to investigate Ant O'Brien on substack. The best
way to do it is simply to search for Ant
O'Brien or Anthony O'Brien substack and we will play the
interview right after a short break. Layton Smith Leverx is
(01:51):
an antihistamine made in Switzerland to the highest quality. Leverix
relieves hay fever and skin allergies or itchy skin. It's
a dual action antihistamine. It has a unique nasal decongestant action.
It's fast acting for fast relief, works in under an
hour and lasts for over twenty four hours. Leveris is
(02:13):
a tiny tablet that unblocks the nose, deals with itchy eyes,
and stops sneezing. Levericks is an antihistamine made in Switzerland
to the highest quality. So next time you're in need
of an effective antihistamine, call into the pharmacy and ask
for Leverix l e v Rix Leverix and always read
(02:34):
the label. Takes directed and if symptoms persist, see your
health professional. Farmer Broker Auckland. Anthony O'Brien otherwise known to
his family as Aunt O'Brien or Tony. If you like
ant is a writer, a thinker, a man who was
(02:57):
raised in New Zealand with a large family seven kids,
where they love to debate everything and taught to play ball.
Not the man educated in science and law. His career
was mostly spent outside of New Zealand in trade promotion,
manufacturing management and TVET education. It's a great pleasure to
(03:17):
have you on the podcast. I think it's a privilege.
Chant Oh, thank you for having me late, and it's
great to be here. You came to my attention by
a roundabout way that I won't go into, and I
was actually quite thrilled. The part that I want to
start with because it intrigues me. You did a degree
in New Zealand in the eighties in the earth sciences,
and then the following decade you did a law degree
(03:39):
at Sydney University. Why did you do that?
Speaker 3 (03:43):
Well? Look, in the eighties when I left school, most
of my friends actually had a plan. I had a
friend who went on to be a pharmacist and other adoctor.
I really didn't know what I wanted to do, and
I also was a little bit impetuious at that point.
It's so staying in wait ketto and going to the
(04:03):
local university seemed like the most logical thing to do.
I was actually care taker that stage of my father's
primary school, so I was making some income from that.
So I put myself through university and started a science degree,
and I just found earth science or geology the most
fascinating of the sciences that I did, and I had
(04:24):
a hope of going into that field and going to
Australia where my brother had already gone ahead of me,
and he was encouraging me to do that geology study
as well.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
So then you went and did law. Why did you
choose law?
Speaker 3 (04:38):
Well, the funny thing is just let me fill in
a little bit there. When I went to Australia, it
was in the mid eighties and there was certainly no
work in geology in New Zealand. So I went to
Australia looking to work in the outback. But I loved
I loved rugby, so I was actually playing for Randwick,
trying to get into the Ramwick Seniors. They were known
(04:59):
as the Galloping Greens, the best rugby club in Australia
actually rugby union. This is and as much as anything
that was a pursuit that I wanted to go after
as well. But I was a Johnny could have been,
to be honest, I was never quite going to get
to the top. And I saw a job at IBM,
the computer company, in the what did they call it,
(05:21):
the Commonwealth Enjoyment Service window. I went in and talked
to the lady and she said, you're too qualified for that,
and I said, I don't care. It's what I want
to do. I want to join a good company. But
this enables me to practice my rugby do a lot
of fitness training. And I went along and I became
a forklift driver in the IBM Weirdhouse in Roseberry and Sydney,
and frankly, having joined IBM, my boss at the time,
(05:44):
Jack Black, leaned across the table and said, you've got
a job for life, because I think at that stage
IBM had never laid anyone off. And then I got
promoted from there into the city where I became an
account administrator. So I actually did that with an intention
of being an IBM for a long time. And I
have to say it was a fantastic training ground and
(06:06):
credible company to work for. But then they went through
their problems in the early nineties and at that stage
it kept occurring to me that science wasn't my thing,
that perhaps law was more what I wanted to do.
Speaker 4 (06:20):
And I actually started a course which is part time.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
What's a course through the Legal Practitioners Admission Board in Sydney, Yes,
which allowed me to It's actually a diploma in law
later not a bachelor's degree, but it's done in conjunction
with Sydney University.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Let me just tell you I did twelve months of that. Okay,
about ten years before you.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
Okay, Well you know that it gives you the right
to become a solicitor in Australia. And when I started
that course, just through happenstance and through a friend who
i'd met as a flatmate, I saw an opportunity to
go and work for the New Zealand Trade Commission in Sydney,
just to fill in for someone for six weeks. Someone
(07:08):
had gone off on sick leave. After that six weeks
and I was studying law at night, they offered me
the job of locally hired Trade Commissioner and that was
the start of my career with Trade New Zealand. And
for the next I think five years, I did law
every night and did that job every day and it
was probably the hardest five years I've ever done in
(07:30):
my career, to be honest, because it was long, long
days and nights indeed.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
And from there you went, let me run through a
list and you tell me if I'm wrong anywhere. You
became New Zealand Trade Commissioner in Sydney, New Zealand Trade
Commissioner and a Consul general in Vancouver, followed by Senior
Trade Commissioner in Europe based in London.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
Correct. The only additional thing is in between. Between ninety
six and two thousand and eight, I had to come
back to New Zealand and I became an account manager
for the marine industry just after we won the America's
Cup and so I worked with what was known as
Joint Action Group back then Merrick's and the Auckland Marine
(08:14):
industry to assist them developed World one worldwide market.
Speaker 4 (08:21):
So that was my time in New Zealand.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
I had to put in that time in New Zealand
to be considered to be posted formally as a trade commissioner.
The local hires were a different thing. But then I
got posted to Vancouver in two thousand as Trade Commissioner
and Consul.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
General and you ended up at one point being well
working for Fletcher's in Hungary.
Speaker 3 (08:44):
Yeah. Well, that's an interesting story in itself because when
I left the Senior Trade Commissioner role in London, I
was working a little bit with Fletcher's. At that stage
it was Ahi Roothing actually you probably remember that name,
and Fletcher had bought that company, and the incumbent in
(09:04):
Europe approached me, knowing that I was thinking about leaving,
and said, look, we are going to either acquire our
competitor or build a new manufacturing facility in Europe.
Speaker 4 (09:17):
Would you be interested to lead that burning?
Speaker 3 (09:19):
So I said yes, I flew down to New Zealand
interviewed with the CEO.
Speaker 4 (09:24):
Of Fletcher Building at that time and.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
Got the job, and so I began as a sales
and marketing manager based in London. We did try to
acquire the competitor who we also licensed the Decra tile to,
which was a company called Ikpel out of Denmark. That
fell through, and then the next step was to build
a manufacturing facility and that was initially going to be
(09:52):
in Slovenia, which was very attractive to me because my
wife is Croatian of heritage, but in the end, it
went to Hungary and off we went to Budapest. The
factory was built, the capex case for that was done
in two thousand and seven. The factory opened the doors
in two thousand and eight, just as the financial crisis hit.
(10:16):
So we then went into a very very difficult period
and I continued in that role for four years as
the bottom fell out of the market in Eastern Europe.
So I gained a very challenging time in my career
to be honesked, but a fascinating time time where I learned, Well.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
I've also got connections in Budapest, in Hungary, okay, and
I love the place it is. So let's bring it.
Let's bring it up to the present. Came you came
back to New Zealand when your kids were hitting school
age or important school age might be the right way
to put it. Correct.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
Yeah. Look, I think one of the big issues for
us in Hungary was our kids were ten, eight and
six at the time, and we were very conscious of
the issue of third culture kids. Our kids didn't have
a home base in Hungary and its language was never
going to be an easy place for them to actually
identify with as as their home. So we bought them
(11:15):
home and I had the opportunity at that stage to
come right back home, which I wasn't expecting at all.
But I came back to Hamilton, back to the Waycattow
Institute of Technology as a business development manager at that point,
and yeah, it was a surprising journey for me, but
I'd lost my father a few years before that, just
(11:37):
at the same time as the factory opened, actually, and
just made sense to come home to give the kids
a base in New Zealand, to give them a New
Zealand identity.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
And the New Zealand education, because you knew from experience
how good it was, or at least that's what you thought.
You're also a board member on the Waycatto Chamber of
Commerce from twenty thirteen to twenty nineteen. I understand. So
you have been very active. You've lived a life to
this point at least that many people would be envious
of because of the travel and the different experiences involved.
(12:10):
So you come back to New Zealand and you put
your kids into school, and now you are apart from
it in whatever else you might be doing, having just
turned sixty last weekend. By the way, you you have
taken up substack writing and this this is what in
(12:34):
part caught my attention, and you discovered your writing. You're
writing specifically on kids and education at this point, and
I don't know where you might continue on and go
to with your writing. But at this particular point of time,
are you almost obsessed, if I may say, with the
(12:54):
education system or the lack of education system in this country.
How did you how did you become well? Can I
read this? Let me let me, let me read this.
We enrolled our son in a very well regarded country
school in the Waikato four years after we returned home.
When my son was then in his second year at
high school, what I used to know was form four.
We were shocked when he said one night, we are
(13:18):
finally doing maths equivalent to what I did in year
six in Budapest. Clearly we had not been paying attention.
I was genuinely shocked, and I'm surprised. Why weren't you
paying more attention? I have to ask, well, that is
a good question. I mean, I just had assumed that
he was learning more.
Speaker 3 (13:39):
And I think one of the reasons it's difficult to
discern that is that the reporting in the New Zealand
education system is so opaque you almost need a degree
to understand the progress of children. And it wasn't until
our son told me that that I started to really think, well,
hold on what's going on here. It became even more
apparent with my younger two because they had had less
(14:01):
time in that system in Hungary, in the International British
School in Hungary, and I began to realize that they
didn't have any knowledge. They didn't know about things and
and so that's when I did start to really start
to investigate it. I was working obviously at the Waycatto
Institute of Technology at that point and was seeing almost
(14:25):
as zealous attachment to inquiry based learning. But I then
began to realize that this was right through the system
and the imparting of knowledge to our kids wasn't happening
as it had happened in Buterpest.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
Did you at any stage regret returning home?
Speaker 3 (14:44):
I did it, to be honest. I came back to
the education system here thinking that I could add a
lot of value and I found that I had to
button my lip.
Speaker 4 (14:53):
So that was the first thing.
Speaker 3 (14:54):
A lot of the time I think my views and
someone who will state their views, but you are in
a position where you have to sometimes run with the
narrative or risk risk your job. And I think that's
a big problem in New Zealand. I think a lot
of people know that the education system is not working
that well, but they're scared to speak up. It's also
a very hard journey to come back to your own
(15:16):
country after the life we have lived. They say it's
the hardest journey for the expact to come home. But
on the other hand, look, I deeply believe in this country.
I've worked for a long time for this country, and
I still believe we can turn this around. And so
I'm here and I intend to stay here, and I
intend to keep banging this drum about education, although I
(15:40):
do want to write about other things as well. Last
and I've got a fairly eclectic set of interests.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
At the age, at the age of sixty, are you
still interested in the gainful employment?
Speaker 3 (15:51):
That's the big question at the moment. I've set myself
up as Tony O'Brien consulting. I think some of my
views may make it difficult for me to be employed
by some groups. But I think if people genuinely want
to have a robust debate about how where we head
as a society. Then you know I'm very keen to
(16:13):
add my two pennies worth and support that endeavor.
Speaker 4 (16:17):
So yeah, I look, I'd like to work, but I'm not.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
Likely at this stage to go back into the corporate culture,
into a corporate in New Zealand. At least overseas it
might be a different story. My kids have all left
home now. My youngest is now at Canterbury University doing engineering,
and the other tour off at Otaga University, both studying,
so you know there's an opportunity again now too.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
May I ask what they're studying.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
Well, my son's doing an honors in law alongside a
BA where he's doing the classic politics, philosophy and economics,
the old Ppe degree that.
Speaker 4 (16:54):
Oxford run and Otarge offer that.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
So he's doing very well and has just picked up
an internship with Mentor Allison for the summer. My daughter
was a very good dancer, did a year at the
New Zealand School of Dance, but she's quite an academic
as well and she's decided that she wants to go
down that path.
Speaker 4 (17:14):
So after a year at the New Zealand School of dance.
Speaker 3 (17:16):
She started this year at Otago doing a BA with
a major in psychology and philosophy. Are you concerned about
the target, I'm concerned about all of our universities, to
be honest, I think the prevailing view of all the
university vice chancellors is concerning. I'm not sure where they head.
(17:36):
They've got financial issues. The loss of the international students
and we haven't an unlikely to pick up the numbers
that we had in the past is going to be
difficult for them from a fiscal perspective. But the fact
that they run with this postmodernist sort of view and
the identity politics that are being expressed by these universities
(18:00):
really concerns me because there should be bastions of free speech.
And you know, I was reading Jonathan Ailing's latest or
one of his latest emails that came out I followed
the Free Speech Union, and he was commenting on the
fact that the vice chancellor of Victoria literally went out
to his academics and asked for information on Ailing and
(18:25):
or doctor Michael Johnson, who's of the New Zealand Initiative,
as examples of their racism, so that he could potentially
cancel them from the event that was to occur at
that university. This is an anathema and it's unbelievable that
that should have happened in New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Well, Michael Johnson, of course was at Victoria University before
he joined the initiative, which is wasn't that long back,
so that in itself was surprising when you said it.
The reason I'm interested in it is because my son
went through and did a course fairy similar to yours
(19:01):
with law and arts. And if it was now that
he was wanting to go to Otigo, I wouldn't be
paying the bills.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
Wow, okay, And why why do you feel that way.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Particularly precisely for the for the for the reasons that
you gave only only probably extended ones. Yeah, I mean
the new, the new the new vice chancellor is I
mean seriously, someone someone who helped destroy the country financially
is now going to run a university can be a break.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
Well, this is this is a problem that we've experienced
the New Zealand before. There's there's various people being put
into positions from having been in political power and and
it isn't an issue where the person has the requisite experience,
but Grant Robinson is you know, he's a politician, but
I'm not convinced he has the background or experience to
(19:57):
be to be a vice chancellor. But it seems latent
that you know, meritocracy is the thing that is sadly
lacking here. We've seen so many examples in New Zealand
where people are appointed into positions not because they actually
are the best person for the role, but because they
fit some sort of identity characteristic that is required. And
(20:24):
that may not seem like a major problem initially, and
you know, I'm the first one to sort of believe
that we do need to have role models from all
areas of our society in various jobs. But when it
becomes a situation where a person's merit is not considered
and someone is appointed simply on the basis of their identity,
(20:47):
You're going to see a situation over time where that
lack of confidence in so many different parts of the country,
in so many different institutions, starts to lead to poor
decision making and starts to lead to the failure of
the economy. And it's something that New Zealanders should be
really concerned about. We have the talent in this country
(21:09):
to run the place well, but we may not have
the right people running the place.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Do we have the talent to run the place well?
And I asked that question based on the number of
flights leaving the country full of full of those people.
Speaker 4 (21:24):
Well, that's a real question, you know, that's a really
good question.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
I think it is a big concern that we educate
people here. As you say the education system is changing.
They have the same concerns that you do. But then
our best and brightest go and where they used to
come back, I'm not sure they will in the future.
And I think you interviewed Stephen Jennings at some point
(21:49):
in an earlier podcast and he was saying similar things.
I think he was saying similar things about education actually
that he was really concerned for New Zealand. So I'm
not sure that we will have the capacity of New
Zealand going forward.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Well, let me put it this way to you. You
have the ability and the capacity and the ground to
involve yourself, if if, if you could in the areas
that you're concerned about and to and to give gift
your talent and knowledge and history to help develop what
(22:25):
we might consider a successful contemporary system of education. Except
you can't because they don't want you.
Speaker 3 (22:33):
Well, that remains to be seen. But I suspect you're right.
I get the feeling that when I've spoken, I'm not
speaking in the right narrative. So yeah, they there's a
danger that people like me start to withdraw. And that's
how I feel a little bit. It's like, Okay, I'm
not not going to be heard, so what's the point?
(22:57):
And it's it's it's very disappointing because I do look
at my experience and I sometimes wonder, what on what's
going on here? Why is my view someone who's been
in these roles around the world. I've worked both in
senior management and in trade promotion for the country. I
understand how our export sectors work, and yet I understand
(23:18):
how the education system works. I've got a science degree
at a law qualification, but I'm just not the right
age or color to be appointed into certain roles.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Okay, now there's more than that, but I want to
go back to this. This is the first article you wrote,
as far as some aware, the problem statement, basically laying
out your approach to education in New Zealand and where
you see it faulty and praising some people who deserve
to be recognized more than they are, and I pick
(23:50):
it up. Firstly, our teachers are taught to adhere almost
religiously to what is known as constructivism, even social constructivism,
which is rolled out under the term student centered learning.
To be sure, constructivism is or as posited by Jen Pierge,
has its merits, but it needs to be tempered by
(24:12):
other pedagogical styles. As my father would have said, to
teach a child, you need to do what it takes.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
And you go on.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
Erica Stanford, the new Minister of Education, has listened and
seems to be adopting many of the recommendations put by
the New Zealand Initiative in this space. She's pushing, for example,
the use of explicit instruction in the form of structured literacy.
Fancy that in helping children to read, she is to
be commended, but she needs to be supported. Again, as
(24:42):
you've made mention of this organization listening to Radio New Zealand,
the pushback has already started, and you go on to
encourage all in Sundry to back Erica Stanford and give
her support. Have you met with her?
Speaker 3 (24:59):
No? I have not. Actually I did have a teleconference
one night prior to the election with some people, and
I think Erica might have been on that call, and
that was through my association with the Wakado Chamber of Commerce,
which i'd left by that stage as a director. But
there are people within the Chamber who think my views
(25:21):
need to be further heard. But I'd love to do so.
I'd love to talk to her about this because I
think at the end of the day, you know there
is a place. Jean Pierreet when he said children are scientists,
is right. They are very good. We all humans have
an inate ability to problem solve. We learn how to
(25:42):
talk without being sent to school. But John Sweller talks
about biological secondary information, not primary information, but secondary information
that we will only learn if we go to school,
and the idea that we need to discover these things
for ourselves to that all the best learning happens when
(26:02):
students discover things. Tends to come from almost a counseling
view of the world that you have insight and we
all do. But the fact of the matter is you
can't discover something if you're ignorant, not of the world's knowledge.
And a classical traditional education of the past ironically the
sort of education that the people who are making the
decisions in Willington today.
Speaker 4 (26:24):
Got but are now denying to the younger folk.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
Gives people information and once you have knowledge, as Ed
hirsh An American educational psychologist says, knowledge begets knowledge. Another one,
Dan Willingham, who's a great educational psychologist out of I
Think Michigan. He talks about the fact that teaching knowledge
is teaching reading because you need knowledge to disambiguate what
(26:53):
you might be reading and understand it. So you start
from the basics, you build, and then you start to
become creative and critical in your thinking once you have knowledge.
Critical thinking as a skill doesn't make sense. It's not
something you can teach. It's innate. But once you situate
(27:17):
that critical thinking in a domain, then you can critically think.
It's actually hard latent to transfer critical thinking across domains.
A doctor can critically think about the illness of a patient,
but if he doesn't know anything about engine, he can
stand there in the front of his engine and you
won't have a hope in hell of critically thinking about
(27:37):
what's wrong with the engine unless he has the knowledge
of how that engine operates. And yet we in New
Zealand seem to think that kids are going to go
to school and sit in front of in a group
and discover the knowledge because the primary thing seems to
be engagement. Now, look, engagement is important, there's no question,
(28:00):
you know, you really do want to engage kids in learning.
But look, if I refer to the Machays skill in
London and wonderful principal there, I can't remember. I think
Catherine berber Berbersing. You know, she explains that they in
part knowledge to these inner city London kids and the
(28:22):
kids lap it up. They like to be taught. And
I can't imagine that it's any different in New Zealand
that children want to learn.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
Have you have you? Have you come across a school
in Sydney a Liverpool called the Marsdian Road Primary School No.
About a month ago, five weeks maybe I interviewed the
headmaster or mistress if you like. The principal Miniesha Grizzoola
(28:54):
born in India, and she has adopted pretty much the
same approach as the as the London school you referenced,
and that principle. I don't know whether she I don't
think she stole it from them. She grew up in
much of a younger life was spent in India, and
she learned things for herself. And she has run this
(29:19):
school in that manner, and the school's rankings, the results
have gone through the roof. I can imagine and guess
what while she's still there and an operating, there's concern
in the system that this might be catching.
Speaker 3 (29:38):
You were why is that late? And why why are
people scared of our children understanding the knowledge of the world.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
Well, I think we both know the answer, and so
do I think most people who listening, and there are
other there are other alternatives that are preferred. As a
simple way to put it. Let me move on to
because you've written I think eight articles so far on
the substeact. Now I don't know which ones you think
(30:06):
are the most important. I will make mention of the
teaching kids to love reading, but I think I think
that that that has become fairly fairly obvious. And it's
the shortest one of all. It's it's two pages, whereas
you're writing others like too much zeal for co construction
in New Zealand classrooms is nine pages, and there's a
(30:30):
couple more that are at least that long. So what
did you what did you move on? Just give us
an outline of what you were saying in article number two,
Too Much zeal.
Speaker 3 (30:41):
Well, this goes back to this issue that we've been
talking about. That's I guess a good place to start
with us is my role at win Tech. I was
bringing teachers from China down to New Zealand to show
them how we teach in our polytechnics. And if you
think about education as being on a continuum, at one
(31:03):
end a road based learning instruction and didact what we
call didactic learning, and at the other end being you know,
discovery or inquiry based learning, which is based on construction
or in the New Zealand model, social constructivism, a sort
of a diological approach to teaching.
Speaker 4 (31:23):
The Chinese were in our way up the.
Speaker 3 (31:27):
One end of that system, the didactic rope based learning,
and we very want to criticize the Chinese for this,
that there's no imagination in their students.
Speaker 4 (31:41):
Bringing these teachers down from China.
Speaker 3 (31:43):
We were impressing upon them the importance of getting students
to think for themselves. But what I started to see
was as these Chinese teachers were here, they started to
ask questions about but you know how these students don't
seem to know stuff. And eventually I got onto a
(32:05):
discussion with some pretty senior people and who took the
view that New Zealand's gone too far. They they will
absolutely introduced some inquiry based learning, project based learning into
their into their education system, and there's a place for it.
But to do that without first and parting the knowledge
(32:28):
just doesn't make sense. And this is this is where
New Zealand it seems to have gone wrong. It's what
what doctor Michael Johnston and others are picking up on.
I think I refer to John Sweller earlier. Also, both
these gentlemen are talking about the fact that you know,
the when you learn to discover it all yourself is
a very very inefficient way to go about it.
Speaker 4 (32:50):
When when you're taught knowledge, when you actually are young
and you've given that knowledge, it gives you the basis
to be creative and critical in your thinking in the future.
And we've just lost that we and I believe we've
lost it partly because they seem to be an ideology
around you know, the knowledge that's come from the age
(33:15):
of reason, the knowledge that's come from the enlightenment, which
ironically is the sort of knowledge that has actually enabled
modern states. Modern liberty has freed women from the chains
of servitude, allowed them to enter the education system, and
yet the flood of women into education in the late
(33:36):
nineties and then their tendency to latch onto postmodernism, which
rejects objectivity, rejects any sort of objective morality, and rejects
the patriarchy in the Western system. I think this is
where it's sort of the ideology combines with the concept
(33:58):
of co construction to cancel out any teaching of the
knowledge of the West. And that's a real problem because
you know, whether it's Newton or Galileo or Descartes or
Hugh or Adam Smith, these thinkers have changed our world.
And you know, if you listen to someone like Stephen Pinker,
(34:24):
he will talk about the fact that our world is
a far far better place than it was in the
seventeenth century.
Speaker 3 (34:29):
There's far less violence, there's far more opportunity for people.
And although the West has benefited from that more than most,
until recently the rest of the world was starting to
catch up, which Laiden goes to insure around you know,
globalization that I would like to talk about if we could,
but because we're heading into a period of deglobalization away
(34:52):
from free trade.
Speaker 4 (34:53):
And I know I'm going off on a tangent here,
but I think it's very dangerous.
Speaker 3 (34:56):
For the world. But look, coming back to this issue
of too much zeal. There's why I'm saying that is
anybody who sort of says, why don't we get kids
to do a bit of drilling on the Times table
or on history, why don't we impart this information, you
tend to sort of get looked at as if you're
(35:18):
talking some strange sort of language, like why would we
do that? But I think underneath that as an ideology.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
How would you describe that ideology?
Speaker 3 (35:30):
It's definitely coming from a Marxist base. It's kind of
a Marxism rolled into postmodernism. And you mean you hear
that the education departments or universities they're big fans of
fo Co and a writer and all of these.
Speaker 4 (35:46):
Thinkers who see everything in terms of power.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
And you mean like the you mean like the Democrat Party.
Speaker 3 (35:57):
Yeah, Look, the American political system is beyond my comprehension.
To be honest, I can't quite believe we've got a
situation where to you know, geriatric candidates are running for
power in a country where there's three hundred and fifty
million people. But certainly the Democrats seem to have lost
(36:19):
their minds and the Republican Party has lost its mojo.
It's been taken over by Trump. For whatever you think
of Trump, he now owns that party, and I think
they're in a mess as well. So yeah, I sound conscious,
I'm sounding a bit negative on everything, but it is.
(36:39):
It is a very challenging environment over there.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
I'm not responding to you because I have an idea
and I will explain it before we conclude the other
articles that you've written, of those which to you are
the most relevant for our purposes, Oh.
Speaker 3 (36:56):
Look, they're all They're all relevant. I think.
Speaker 4 (36:58):
I think you say that the just very quickly.
Speaker 3 (37:02):
On the modern learning environments or the innovative learning environments,
that the amount of money that's been spent on this
country creating barns that are going to be very difficult
for children to learn in is just astonishing. Going back
to John Sweller, his theory around cognitive load suggests that
two really critical things. One that our working memory is
(37:25):
limited in its capacity. But if you have information loaded
into your long term memory, then you can easily access
that back into your working memory without too much cognitive load.
Other things that can put cognitive load on the working memory.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
Give us story, just give us a definition of cognitive load.
Speaker 3 (37:46):
So you know, the minds and the mind's an amazing thing,
and some of these things are sort of illustrative of
how it works rather than actually how it works. But
in the you have it. You have a working memory
where the work is done, where an executive the executive
level your brain is operating. And then in your long
term memory, where we've got a lot of memory stored
(38:07):
in our brains, that the working memory can access that
long term memory, so that the load he's talking about
is in the executive functionary, in the executive function, in
the working memory. When it comes to distraction, sorry, when
it comes to the modern learning environments, one of the
problems that they create is the noise and the visual
(38:32):
distraction of so many children in a modern learning environment
actually adds to cognitive load, which is a problem because
it does then overwhelm a child, and particularly children with
problems like ADHD, they just can't handle that environment. And
I also suspect the teachers find it extremely difficult.
Speaker 4 (38:52):
To handle the environment of being in a room with.
Speaker 3 (38:54):
Sixty kids all day long, all competing for their attention
and in a discovery based mode, not listening to them,
but being told to get on and do things and
work in groups.
Speaker 4 (39:05):
So anyway, the point there is is that.
Speaker 3 (39:10):
There's been a lot of money spent building these monolithic
structures that align with the discovery based learning model, which
modern science says is not a good way of teaching
teaching children. In the other articles, and particularly my most
more recent articles, I'm talking about issues that go to
(39:31):
social media and some of the damage that's been caused.
The education industry here in New Zealand seems to think
that children need to learn how to use the technology.
Ignore the fact that most of us are aware that
our kids can actually use smartphones and iPads and most
software more insuratively as digital natives than any of us.
(39:53):
I don't need more time on these things. They need
to be taught the basics. So I'm a big fan
of Jonathan Height in this area his books. On His
latest book on the Anxious Mind talks about four norms
which I wrote about us.
Speaker 4 (40:11):
Adopting if we could in one of my more recent.
Speaker 3 (40:14):
Articles, and he's those four norms that he's talking about
are no no smart phones before high school, no phones
at school, no social media before sixteen, and more independent
and free played out in the real world. He cites
research that shows that the average, not not some teenagers,
(40:36):
the average teenager in America spends nine hours a day
on social media. To believe it is hard to believe,
but not not when you've seen teenagers playing video games
and other things at night. But if we take that
time away from kids and redirect them into the real world,
we all have to make an effort to allow that
(40:59):
to happen and put the scaffolding around that to allow
that happen.
Speaker 4 (41:02):
And that that goes.
Speaker 3 (41:03):
Back to us acting against the community and and you know,
not being afraid to put out kids outside and say
go on your bikes. Go. You know, look at look
at the number of schools around New Zealand where it's
a bridlock to get into school because every kid is
going to school in an suv in case they get
you abducted on the streets. Well, is that is that
(41:26):
really going to happen? And if it is, why is
it happening? You know, have we lost our communal values
that we can't look out for each other's kids.
Speaker 2 (41:35):
Well, I think there's more than that. I think there's
the danger of traffic that deserves a lot of a
lot of parents. Plus the fact that some of them,
I don't I have no idea on I can't put
a figure on it, but some of them live quite
a distance away from schools. Where where in this day
and age. Going back to the traffic scenario, it really,
(41:59):
it really is unnerving.
Speaker 3 (42:01):
Look, I don't doubt that I and I sound somewhat disingenuous,
even to myself, because I'm guilty of this helicopter parenting myself,
and you know, and but we somehow need to convince
ourselves that and start with the small things. There's a
there's an organization that I refer to in one of
those articles called let Grow in the United States, and
(42:23):
they are starting to just encourage parents to do the
smallest things to get their kids to be a little
bit more independent and take take trips, go into the
shop themselves, those sort of things.
Speaker 4 (42:35):
Just just to build that independence and agency.
Speaker 3 (42:38):
Otherwise, you know, it may be that our kids will
get killed or injured on the roads but there's a
there's a growing suicide problem in New Zealand, which is
the tip of a mental health problem which is which
is growing rapidly. That our kids have anxiety and depression
because they've been taught by parents that the world's not safe,
(42:58):
that they aren't competent to go out into the world.
And we all, we all just need to be a
little bit more optimistic about our ability, our kid's ability
to cope in the world and let them go and
scrape their knees. I'm not I'm not disagreeing with you
about you know, the roads we need. We the traffic
(43:19):
does move fast, and so you have to be sensible.
But there are opportunities for us as a society to
collectively ensure that our children get more free and independent play.
Speaker 2 (43:30):
And I agree with you completely by the way, falling
off swings and breaking your arm or something which one
of mine did, is a lesson in life exactly. And
it's not pleasant to break your arm, not that I'd know,
but by the same token, that's how you learn through experience,
and you can transfer that learning breaking your army by
(43:50):
being silly on a swing to other things as well.
There's something that you mentioned. That's that's triggered off a
question I had when for when I was reading and
I have read pretty much all of the articles that
you've read so far. Are our boys failing school or
(44:13):
are the schools failing our boys? Now, before you jump in,
the question that I that I have is the boys
are supposed to be the ones who are who are
falling behind. But when it comes to social media and
the influence that it has, the influence is far greater
(44:35):
on girls that negatively on that it is on boys.
And I can't yes, I can remember the figures girls.
There's a big growth in girls having psychological problems and
the figure I was thinking of was thirty percent and
the boys, by comparison, are.
Speaker 4 (44:55):
Twelve Yeah, twelve percent.
Speaker 3 (44:57):
Yeah, yeah, that's in the United States. No, you're absolutely
right when it comes to when it comes to social media,
girls are really vulnerable. And you know, there's there's a
growing body of evidence that suggests that the you know,
(45:19):
the negative impacts of a constant requirement for validation, the
constant exposure to what other people are doing in the world,
leads to kids and particularly girls become becoming a little
bit more neurotic about what's going on, and worried that
they're not going to cut it. They're also you know,
(45:41):
prone to being cyber bullied, so in that respect, yeah,
there is a problem for girls, and that's that's a
good reason to ban social media for people under sixteen.
Speaker 2 (45:54):
Two things I want to sorry, yeah, no, go ahead.
Two things I want to string together. The collapse of morality.
That's a question for you and sex in teaching, because
the two, the two are very closely logged in together.
(46:14):
Have we had a collapse of morality do you think
in Western society?
Speaker 3 (46:20):
Yeah, well, I think we have. And I think one
of the issues that that's a real problem for our
society is and it's one of the issues that kind
of counters the Age of Enlightenment. If you are a
religious person. The Age of Enlightenment really taught us all
to be skeptical, to think of ourselves as universal people,
but also to obviously, you know, question God. You know,
(46:42):
as nietzsch has premacy said, we've killed God. And as
people have come away from religion as their sort of arbiter,
a God is their arbitter of their lives. In following
the prestrict of the structures of a religion. Everyone's been
searching for a new set of ethics. And you know,
(47:04):
there are the new atheists like Dawkins and others, and
various ethicists around world Peter Singer out of Australia, who
are pointing to a new set of ethics, but they're
very hard for people to latch onto. And it's much
easier for people to latch onto the new religion of
postmodernism more than the new religion of you know, really
(47:26):
a name. Stuff like that comes across on TikTok so.
I think people are a little lost there. It does
seem to be a movement back towards religion. I'm not
sure what the answer is. Later, and I was brought
up as a Catholic, I very much became agnostic and
almost an atheist, and now I don't know where I am.
(47:48):
To be honest, I always find it impossible to reject
the possibility of a god. But as a society, we
have such a plurality of thinking on this that it's
difficult to get common and shared values around what the
ethics and society should be. Albeit that if we went
(48:08):
back to the basics, I think nearly every society does
agree on something that looks close to the Teen Commandments.
Speaker 2 (48:16):
I think that's a rather wise soulation. Actually, sex and teaching.
Is there a place in schools for sex education?
Speaker 3 (48:24):
Yeah, I absolutely think there's a place in schools for
sex education. You know, the world changed, what is it,
you know, in the sixties when women finally got control
of their fertility. It's probably the biggest sociological change in
the history of humans. Of humankind. There's no doubt that,
(48:48):
you know, we should put our heads in the sand
and ignore the sexual revolution. And I think in the
modern day world, we need to be clear that the
world is operating differently. So kids do need to be aware,
particularly young girls, they do need to be aware of
their sexuality. They need to unders stand contraception, they need
(49:09):
to understand the basics. The problem I have is there
seems to be a growing push to do that at
a younger and younger age. And it just seems insane
to me to be teaching kids before puberty at a
very young age about all sorts of sexual practices that
you know, you and I wouldn't have known about until
(49:32):
we were quite mature.
Speaker 2 (49:34):
Well, I can give you a reason for it. It's
very simple. It is are being run by introduced and
run by Devians. Well you may well be right, and
they're getting away with it specifically in the States. Look,
I've I lied a long time ago that what happens
in America it used to be starting in California, but
now it can come from anywhere almost. But what happens
(49:57):
in America finds its way into the rest of the world,
particularly the Western world anglic countries, and you can you
can see it in advance and more. All recent times,
it's become something of a surprise to me at the
speed at which it moves. Now I'm about to give
you an example of what I'm talking about, and it
(50:19):
is something that stunned me over the weekend. In the
Weekend Australian, a woman who was qualified to cover this
sort of thing about a situation in Wales of all places,
where boys have been asking teachers in class, how do
we conduct choking during sex? And the answer is pornography. Essentially,
(50:46):
they're seeing it in pornography. She even indicates in the
article that the girls themselves are if not believing they're
then they're they're in motion to accepting that this is
part of it. And the boys are believing that the
girls what it did my head?
Speaker 3 (51:09):
No, it does my head, And I think, you know,
and this is clearly down to pornography. This is clearly
down to there seems to be I think it's well
known that, you know, as people use pornography more and more,
they have a tendency to go to more and more extremes.
And of course, like any of these algorithms that I'm
operating on an app or on the internet, the algorithm,
(51:35):
algorithm is designed to tatilate and trigger you more and more.
And the same is true of porn. So where once
porn might have shown a beautiful expression of love, and
you know, I'm not totally condemn I don't condemn pornography entirely,
but it certainly should be used by adults. But where
(51:55):
people are being shown more and more extreme porn, and
especially at very young ages, of course they're going to
start to normalize that's what you do.
Speaker 4 (52:05):
And and choking is an extremely dangerous.
Speaker 3 (52:11):
Thing to do, and the fact that our young children
even know about it is just astonishing.
Speaker 2 (52:16):
One question you mentioned was a boy asked the teacher,
how do I bring my girlfriend around after she's passed out?
Speaker 3 (52:24):
Oh my god. There.
Speaker 2 (52:28):
It's astonishing, but not really surprising when you think about it,
especially on the back of your explanation a moment ago.
Speaker 4 (52:35):
No, well exactly. And this is the great irony of
all of this is.
Speaker 3 (52:42):
We're trying to keep our children safe in the natural environment,
and we expose them to these sort of things online
we have. This is where Height is right. We need
to get kids off this stuff until they've got a
level of maturity that they can understand what's happening here.
I mean, you're seeing the same thing with the hookup
culture in young people there, you know, and I'm sure
(53:05):
that girls ultimately understand that this is not good for them.
There's a lot of evidence to suggest that, you know,
the top twenty percent of boys get to pick from
all the girls because the girls want to be with
the nicest looking, most sporty boy. If there's a belief
(53:25):
that those girls have and they you know, the girls
genuinely want love, but the boys will just keep moving
on and they're eventually going to be left feeling, you know, neglected,
sad because they've participated in a culture that is just
so shallow. And we need to get back to a
(53:47):
situation where you know, they have a word for it
these days, you know that you meet in the wild.
So many boys. I've talked to boys at universities who
can't find a girlfriend because the girls say, well, if
I wanted to have sex, so I just go on
tender you know, so back off. So, you know, even
just to chat up a girl as a young man
these days is problematic. Where does that leave our young men?
(54:10):
They're both kind of over feminized by their education and
then presented with an impossibly difficult task of finding a partner.
It's not good.
Speaker 2 (54:21):
Give me a brief on the feminization of education.
Speaker 4 (54:25):
Well, well, look, it's always a difficult one to go into.
Speaker 3 (54:27):
And I would say at the outset that it's you know,
in danger of being accused of being a misogynist. But
you know, I think I've always believed that there's a
balance between the sexes, between the masculine and the feminine.
There are two biological sexes. By the way, later maybe
(54:48):
there may be more fluidity and gender, but there are
just two biological sexes.
Speaker 2 (54:53):
Well, I'm a fellow traveler.
Speaker 3 (54:55):
Yeah, And at the end of the day, our schools
have become flooded with particularly primary schools with women and
women both teaching and in leadership roles, and women quite
rightly are the cares in society when when you know,
women evolved to look after young children, to nurture those children,
(55:19):
and there's a stage in every mother's life where she
has to start to back away from that naturing and
allow the child to explore and grow. And that's and
that's why men in fathers are so important. They play
a different role. They push their kids, they encourage them
to get out and compete. I'm not saying women don't,
but there's there's more tendency to nurture and to discuss
(55:42):
from women. Now. That is what is happening in our schools.
We're seeing more and more leaders and teachers in the schools. Men.
Men are scared to go into primary schools these days
for reasons we both know.
Speaker 4 (55:55):
And and so there's this over.
Speaker 3 (55:58):
Nurturing of children and an over emphasis on cooperation and
discussion and a whole lot of things that actually leads
the boys feeling like they have to sit down on
the carpet with the girls and do nothing, which they'll
happily do if you give them an iPhone or some
sort of smart device that they can just get absorbed in.
(56:20):
But we're losing that balance between the masculine and feminine
that should be there. And the only way we can
resolve that, by the way, is to get more men
back into the teaching profession, particularly at the primary school level.
Speaker 2 (56:35):
Which lead leads to another subject. Really not one that
you've covered as har as I'm aware at this point,
but co ed or single sex schools best.
Speaker 4 (56:47):
That's a hard one.
Speaker 3 (56:48):
I went to a single sex school, Saint John's College
in Hamilton. I must say, having come from a full
country school to a place where there were no girls,
I found it very discombobulating at the start, and actually
I'd have to say I think I suffered a psychological
deface it at the end of that time, because I
(57:09):
really didn't know how to approach approach girls when I
went to university. So look, I know these evidence that
suggests that that single sex schools are better for education.
My view is keeping the two sexes together through school
is the better, the better way, because I think that
(57:30):
that period of puberty is such a great time for
socialization between the two sexes and to understand each other.
Speaker 4 (57:37):
That's just my opinion.
Speaker 3 (57:38):
I know others will have.
Speaker 2 (57:39):
But I was interested in your opinion. I experienced both,
and I could argue either way, to be honest.
Speaker 3 (57:47):
Yeah, yeah, I agree, all right.
Speaker 2 (57:50):
So I mentioned that I had a suggestion to make
to you, And now it would appear to be the
time you mentioned globalization and you mentioned American politics, and
I think that there is another podcast on both those
topics for us to cover sometime in the not too
distant future.
Speaker 3 (58:08):
You say, I'd love to do that. I'm fascinated in it.
I think we're in danger of the world economy contracting
Judah deglobalization, and New Zealand's in a particularly vulnerable situation
in that regard. I mean that kind of hint, you know,
hitches back to education as well, because we have to
(58:31):
have a highly educated, innovative society in New Zealand and
with such a small country, such a long way from anywhere,
that we need the benefits of free trade to do
well in the world. And you know, I've got lots
of thoughts on that from my years in trade development.
But I'd love to love to have a deeper discussion
(58:53):
on those topics.
Speaker 2 (58:54):
And we might we might make it a trifector and
throw media into it as well.
Speaker 3 (58:58):
Yeah. Look, just on that note, and as you as
you talked about it, I did listen to your podcast
with Oliver Hartwich and I think is a very good thinker.
I love some of this thinking about how New Zealand
might become a little bit more Swiss in its democracy.
That's not an easy leak to make. But one thing
he did touch on and I was cheering alongside, was
(59:21):
foreign direct investment. New Zealand needs to understand that it
doesn't really matter that much where the money comes from.
We need capital. Our firms in New Zealand have consistently
been undercapitalized, so we need we need the factors of
production and obviously human smart humans is a big part
(59:42):
of that education. But capital is another thing. And we've
done a really bad job over the years of trying
to protect the economy from foreign direct investment while trying
to open up other economies to our products. We need
to we need to be a little bit more balanced
about that. And he did site Ireland, which is a
country of my ancestry, and you know that have the
(01:00:03):
advantage of being situated in the middle of Europe, on
the edge of Europe. But they've done fantastic job of
attracting foreign direct investment and in their education system and
they're moving well ahead of others as a knowledge economy,
and I think New Zealand needs to do something similar.
Speaker 2 (01:00:19):
You know, I've never been attracted to Ireland in any way,
shape or form until Oliver made those comments, and by
the end of it, I was ready to pack up
the house and leave.
Speaker 4 (01:00:30):
Well, they got great crack over there.
Speaker 3 (01:00:31):
You know, they love to talk, but they're good thinkers,
and you know they've been placed in a.
Speaker 4 (01:00:38):
Difficult situation because of Brexit.
Speaker 3 (01:00:41):
I might add lasion that you know, Island is a
place that actually demonstrates for me that we have to
look to the future, forget about the past and all
the injustices and everything that's gone on in the world
where we could have a grievance. It's so important that
a society pulls together and comes together around a vision
(01:01:02):
and a goal. And thank god Island has done that.
They've moved on from the troubles, although you know, it
really worries me that the Brexit thing might stir that
up again. But New Zealand has to be very careful
on this front. We need to understand that we're all
New Zealanders wherever we came from, and we need a
common set of values and some national pride in being
(01:01:23):
New Zealanders, not being in our groups, whatever they may be,
but being New Zealander's first and foremost and proud of
our country. And as people would say, all throwing the
walker in the same direction.
Speaker 2 (01:01:37):
Would you allow a walker from anywhere in the world
to come in.
Speaker 3 (01:01:42):
That's a hard question. I'm not a say again.
Speaker 2 (01:01:46):
I was going to say, hold the thought, because we
can throw that in with the other lot. Yeah, it's
building now your work. What is the best way for
people to find it?
Speaker 3 (01:01:56):
Well, look, I'm still building that up at the moment.
But if they go on to substack, look up substack
and look for antology. I've also been posting my work
to LinkedIn and Twitter. I've got a little bit of
work to do there late and getting that a bit
more in shape. I don't use Instagram, don't. I don't
like that platform. But if they simply look me up
(01:02:19):
on substack, they'll find antology.
Speaker 2 (01:02:23):
Anthology on substack, yes, not anthology antology a n T antology. Yes,
And I encourage everyone to do it and spread it
around it's it's very deserving of your attention, and I
want to thank you Tony.
Speaker 3 (01:02:41):
Well, thank you for giving me this time and in
this platform. It's it's not often someone like me gets
the chance to have a discussion like this later and
it's been it's been really pleasurable. So thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (01:02:53):
Well, we shall meet again in the not too distant
future at a time and date to be arranged perfect.
Speaker 3 (01:03:00):
I look forward to it. Likewise, Thanks Laton.
Speaker 2 (01:03:02):
Thank you Tony. Now I'm doing it a little differently
(01:03:23):
this year. At the end of the replay, I usually
have a few words to say, and every year I
have to struggle to think up what the appropriate thing
is to put in this particular plot. So I've decided
to give myself a break and do one that covers
all of them. So if you've heard this before, you
can turn it off because you've heard it, because it's
(01:03:45):
going to be the same one for each of the
seven replays. Now, if this is the first one, then
I trust that you're having a wonderful holiday. If you're
not on holiday yet, your time will come. Rest assured.
I have enjoyed doing these because re listening to them myself,
I get more out of them, and I see things,
(01:04:06):
or I should say, I hear things that I might
have got slightly wrong or I could have done better,
So it's a learning curve as well. Anyway, we will
be back for the next one a week from this
particular release, unless, of course it's the last one, which
is on the twenty ninth of January, and that'll be
the end of this replay series. Add on February five,
(01:04:30):
we shall return with fresh content in the meantime at
any stage us drop us on notes if you've got
comment that you'd like to make later at Newstalks AB
dot co dot Enzen and Caroline at NEWSTALKSB dot co
dot nz and we shall talk soon.
Speaker 1 (01:04:54):
Thank you for more from News Talks at B Listen
live on air or online, and keep our shows with
you wherever you go with our podcast on iHeartRadio.