December 14, 2024 • 36 mins
School prizegivings can be a chore this time of year, along with the increasing popularity of participation awards - but the burning question is whether these are helping or harming children.
Dougal Sutherland joins with more.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks.
By next day you get.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Stanny Buddies Christmas, I give you the next Day Sandy Beach.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
And welcome back to the Weekend Collective. Ah, yes, a
little bit of wham or just George Michael, I think
it's wham Last Christmas? Last Christmas? Should I say I
forgot it was a Christmas song? But of course it's
got Christmas in the title. Anyway, I forgot. I didn't
forget it was a Christmas song. I forgot of thinking
of it when it as a song. When I was
doing talk bag, I'm thinking what are the good Christmas songs?
(01:07):
And somebody suggested Last Christmas. I was like, oh yeah,
a little bit of wham. There we go. Anyway, Welcome
to the Parents Squad. My guest is he's a psychologist
at Umbrella Academy and his name is Dougal Sutherland and Google,
good afternoon.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
How are you you're a term Umbrella well being, Umbrella
Academy evil? Sorry, Umbrella Academy, I think is like an
evil corporation in some video game. I believe.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
Oh well, okay, that's not us.
Speaker 4 (01:33):
I can tell you right now there's nothing evil there.
I'm all good.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
I don't know where academy came from. But anyway, that umbrella,
sorry about that.
Speaker 4 (01:41):
No, no, I'm going to look up what Umbrella Academy is. Now,
it was a TV show. It's a TV show.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
Remember that. I think my producer had a senior moment
and umbrella. She brought up some old memory. I'm going
to dig into that in the break. I'm going to
say what. Yeah, anyway, now, what's what's your website and
your your address for people to get in touch and
see the work that you do.
Speaker 4 (02:03):
That's a great umbrella dot dot z.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Dot org dot z. So what we want to talk about? Look,
it's it's interesting one, isn't it? The whole question, the
whole question about rewarding kids and giving them a kids
children awards for achievement and things. And as you will
(02:30):
have seen that there's a story out about school prize
givings and a question mark over whether these are good
or bad for children. And there's that school of thought
that you know, the well, there's a school of thought
in both directions, and that somehow if you are not
the kids who are not getting their award, the awards
maybe dis disheartened or something, and it sends and anyway
(02:54):
to me. Obviously, surprise givings have been something that have
been around when I was at school, and I never
gave them a second thought. Some kids got prizes and
some didn't, and I didn't really care about it. But
is there some sort of deeper sort of pearl clutching
we can do on this?
Speaker 4 (03:14):
Yeah, it's it is a It is a vexed one,
isn't it like on a bit like you? I think
in the end of year prizegiving, the way I see
it is meant to celebrate the big achievements of the year,
and I reckon there is a time and a place for,
you know, singling out people who've done well, whether that's
academically or sporting or culturally, and that's I think. I
(03:36):
think it's important that we celebrate that, that we recognize
people that have done really, really really well, because they
might not get it a lot otherwise. I think there's
too a place for awarding kids or recognizing kids who participate,
but that could I reckon that can be done during
the year that the prize giving. The prize givings are
sort of like the award it's a bit of the awards,
the Academy awards. You don't say, well, everybody can get
(03:58):
a can get an award, Academy award, can't they? It's like, no,
there are some that we and we and I don't
think we should shy away from celebrating that success.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
It's a bit like you know, the maybe there is
a time when kids. It's like with sporting teams that, yeah,
the kids catch up with this because you know, things
like player of the week, and the kids are not dumb,
and at some stage they become aware that there's a
bit of a merry go round, that it's such and
(04:28):
such as turn for player of the week. And as
soon as you turn into that, you might as well
not bother ya. I mean in the in the teams
that I sort of was a parent at I think
we try to. We may have got there may have
been kids who got it more than once or more often,
but and we would always look for a reason that
that player had got it, so it would have a
(04:50):
tangible way proving it. But kids are not dumb either,
are they when it comes to I just got that
because it was my team.
Speaker 4 (04:57):
Yeah, yeah, I like that kind of you know that
that approach that you're talking about there around you know
that there's got to be a reason, like, you know,
especially you know, I think back I coached kid's cricket teams,
and some of them, you know, they were I think
my son started when he was about eight or something
and played till he was in high school and so
(05:17):
he got recently good. But you saw a whole lot
of shapes and sizes and levels of ability and kids
during that time, and some you know, couldn't catch a ball.
But if they did manage to start catching a ball,
that might be something worth celebrating and that, you know,
but they'd be specifically picked out for that. Hey, you know,
you really improved in your fielding, which is great, and
(05:40):
that's something to be celebrated as well.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
I think, yeah, but I think we had move of
the day as well, because if somebody did something spectacular,
went for something, even if it failed to be like
your move of the day was you diving to try
and catch that ball and they didn't make it, that
was magnificent and they sort of go, yeah, it's cool.
I really yeah. Yeah, Because there was a time when
there was a school of thought, I don't know, who
(06:04):
where it came from, but where it was almost viewed
to be a cardinal sin to be selecting kids to
be celebrated ahead of others and their achievements.
Speaker 4 (06:12):
Have we moved?
Speaker 3 (06:14):
I don't think that this is what the story is about.
But there are things that you probably shouldn't be rewarding
kids for. But my take on that would be if
your child makes their bed and helps with the dishes,
that's not something we you need a badge for it.
There should be an intrinsic They should learn to do
lots of things in life simply because hey, I did that.
(06:34):
How cool is it?
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (06:36):
Look, I think there's some truth in that. I think though,
that sometimes when you're trying to get a behavior going
that isn't there, I don't know, making it, let's say,
making a bed just because you said that that rewarding
and sort of in strict psychological terms, which is giving
them something positive and making increasing the chances that they'll
(06:57):
do it again. That probably is a useful thing, I think,
And that's so you're not going to rward them forever.
But if they don't want to do it, or if
they don't know how to do it, they're not very
good at doing it, then giving them something afterwards that
makes the behavior more likely to occur. Again, that's a
definition of a psychological definition of a reward. I think it's.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
Useful as opposed to here's a lolly or ye over substantial.
Speaker 4 (07:23):
Yeah, yeah, it's just it's just a recognition and you
are trying to train a behavior. But I think that
is different from like a prize giving or or an
award for participation. Well yeah, one is you're trying to
get more of a behavior, the other you're recognizing something
about them. But yeah, I think, I think, I think, Look, yeah,
going back to that price giving, I really think I
(07:44):
remember I was I did pretty well at school academically,
but our school was not the type of school that
you celebrated being good academic.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
The awards and the price for Latin goes to doogle.
Speaker 4 (07:58):
If only I think they dropped Latin by the time
I got there, But no, our school was not. There
was no culture of selling embracing that. And I think
the only time I ever felt good about my school
achievement was probably a prize giving once where I got
a prize and people did clap and celebrate, and I
was like, oh, okay, once in the year, I feel
okay about doing well at school, which is a bit
(08:21):
of a sad in diament on in my high school.
But that's that's the way it was, and that was
useful for me. I thought, yeah, I do get recognized
at some level for doing this in front of.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
Everybody thattually interesting. I got the prize for history when
I was fifteen, I think, or sixteen or seven. Maybe
it was seventeen actually, and I don't remember remember feeling anything.
I sort of like, I don't actually wonder if prizegivings
are more for the parents in a way, because the
kids sort of go, yeah, I got this, and they
sort of wander up and they go cool. I mean,
(08:55):
I've got a photo of my daughter's at the prize
giving and they invite them up because they you know,
it's at a school where they have blistering levels of sess.
But there's a photo I took where they invite them
ten up at a time and they're standing there and
they all look so lum. And when my daughter, our
(09:19):
daughter's got a couple of awards, and I was thinking,
maybe the awards more for me, because we were just
so proud proud of them. Who do you think the kids.
Speaker 4 (09:29):
I definitely think you get that sense of pride as
a family member and as a parent, and there is
some I think it and in many ways for kids
that the awards are often a celebration of that the
family in a sense, because you know your parents have
invested a lot. But yes, I guess it's sometimes kids
can feel a bit embarrassed. Oh my god, I don't
(09:50):
really want to go with the rest of it in
the front of the school, and then mom and dad
are standing there clapping and jeering and the whole rest
of it. So yeah, probably families getting parents get more
out of it than than the kids do. I would
imagine at times.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
We'd love your calls on this about how to get look,
I don't know, I ask the obvious text question is
like a prize givings helpful or harmful, But how do
you get it right when it comes to celebrating success
versus I don't I think participation awards are probably the
(10:27):
worst prize you can give to a kid because they
know they're just being given it for turning up. That
would be my general rule on it. But I think
the one that we used to sort of as kids.
Poor scorn On was that the effort an improvement award?
But I think these days actually the effort an improvement
award is probably one of the most significant ones some
kid who has turned around something. So we'd love your
(10:48):
calls on this. On eight hundred eighty ten eighty. Do
you love the prize givings or do you hate the
fact that they single our excellence and the other kids
who miss out it just contributes to their sense of
something inadequacy or something I'm overplaying. I'm overstaining my hand
on that. But what do you think? Do you like
(11:09):
prize givings? Are they helpful or harmful? O eight one
hundred eighty ten eighty text nine to nine till them.
We'll take a break now and we'll come back with
your calls if you like. I'd love to hear from you.
It's eighteen past five news talks he'd be.
Speaker 5 (11:20):
He's saying on a song it is we go along,
whilcome you glmbo on the name Well in Movado you
can build a storemat and pretended he has passed round,
He'll say, are you married? Will send no man, but
you can do the job. When you're on town letter
(11:44):
will inspire.
Speaker 3 (11:46):
Ah, Yes, this one's for you. Doogle google Sutherland from
umbrella dot org. God end z it because I think
you might have told Tyra and she's trying to make
up for your company company name wrong. This is a
bit of Dean Martin, a bit of Christmas.
Speaker 4 (12:01):
Yeah, lovely, isn't it? Classic classic Kroner.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
I like the old of Christmasy crooney stuff.
Speaker 4 (12:06):
It's just yea yeah, I do too. I've got this.
I've got a cassette tape of a Frank Sinatra Christmas
Special with Dean Martin coming on as well. It's it's
it sounds like it's a recording of some sort of
radio show that they did, but it was a it
was a different time back then in the fifties.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
Funny thing is he was the one his his his
sort of persona on stage was the one. He was
always fond of a drink, but apparently he didn't drink
very much, and it was Sinatra who drink like for sure. Yeah,
so they turned the tables on that. Anyway, we're talking
about prize givings, so let's take your calls on this.
Eight hundred and eighty ten eighty Daytona. Hello, Hi there, Hello,
(12:46):
how are you hi?
Speaker 6 (12:47):
Can Yeah, I'm good, Thank you.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
What would you like to share with us about the
prize givings?
Speaker 6 (12:53):
Yeah, I won the most improved part of a prizegiving
in high school and it was a bit embarrassing, but
at the same time that he said that it's an improvement,
like a something.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
It's true when you got it, what did you Were
you surprised and were you were you thrilled or were
you sort of did you sort of.
Speaker 6 (13:14):
Me my cohort, which it just seems like you're you're Yeah,
it's just not it's kind of looked down.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
How long ago?
Speaker 4 (13:22):
Was that?
Speaker 6 (13:23):
Years ago?
Speaker 3 (13:29):
Okay? Well, and what do you think of it now
when you look back, or would you would you want
your family members of yours to get the most improved
because it's actually pretty good prize when you think of it.
Speaker 6 (13:37):
Yeah, absolutely, I mean that's the means it's an improvement.
You're stepping up a later.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
Good on it, Good on your thanks for that, Daytona.
So it's a bit of a bit of a scratchy
phone line. Then I think Google you might have had
trouble hearing that that Daytona was saying when she got
the most Improved awards, she sort of cringed a bit,
but she's actually quite proud she got it. Looking back
fifteen years later.
Speaker 4 (13:58):
Yeah, funny, that, isn't it that that when you look
back on it, go, Actually that was and that's a
good thing. I reckon, that's really good. You know that
often in the moment, especially as teenagers, teenagers never like
to be the center of attention, weirdly because they always
like to be the center of attention at the same time,
don't they. But if you put them up up on
stages like no, no, but actually it does sink in.
I think Daytona's example sort of showed that it sinks
(14:20):
in later on.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
I wonder if it depends on the school and the
sort of community I guess, but I think probably that
when it came to prize giving, kids who got awards
for sporting prowess did actually enjoy that. I think we
are shifting a bit with the appreciating academic success, that
aren't we.
Speaker 4 (14:40):
Yeah? I think so. My son when he was at school,
he went to a fairly traditional sort of boys' school,
and you know Verse fifteen and Blues for cricket, et
cetera with a thing. But they were really pushing to
recognize academic excellence and cultural excellence as well. And I
think that was good because I think sporting always sort
of gets it. But yeah, the wider and the broader
(15:01):
you can make it. I think we're going to get better,
better results if we're if we recognize lots of talents.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
Yeah, what is the I mean, what are the ways too?
From a psychological point of view, I guess, or not
from me, you know, just from a human to human
point of view. But encouraging kids to actually, because there
are some kids who are motivated by extrinsic things. They
want to win the prize and they go healthful leather
for that. I have a daughter who did say when
she didn't get all the top of prize, she did well,
(15:28):
but she saw some other girls getting better prizes. I
actually said to my wife. I've already repeated myself from
the panel here because I was telling my panelists about this,
But I said to my wife on the way home,
I said, I bet you such and such says that
she might try a bit harder next year because she
wants to win those prizes. And I was driving around
and she was in the back seat. She goes, Daddy,
(15:49):
I might try a bit harder next year's And I said, really,
why is that? So she's motivated by both, you know,
her own sense of satisfaction, but she does like the
extrinsic Yeah.
Speaker 4 (16:00):
Look, I think I think sort of. There are different
personality styles and there you know, some are really motivated
by competition and that's great, and some aren't so much
motivated by competition, and that it just won't quite have
the same impact the horses for courses. I guess if
your kid is motivated by that competition, that's probably great.
They'll probably learn some good lessons along the way. And
(16:21):
the fact that they can't win all the time, you know,
they might be I had the experience of going to
from school to UNI, and UNI is a whole different ballgame,
and all of a sudden you go, oh, I'm not
I'm a little fish in a big pool now. But
that's okay, you can that's that's good learning as well.
That's good learning. Well.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
I don't know what the stats show in terms of
the people who become the biggest successes in life, but
I have a suspicion that it's not necessarily the people
who rock and roll at school who necessarily turn into
the biggest successes. I would have thought, in fact, for
kids who this is what This is why I think
if you're a naturally talented, gifted child, that the the
(17:03):
prizes that might flow when you actually haven't much if
it don't necessarily serve you that well do they?
Speaker 4 (17:09):
Yeah? No, It goes back to your point around you
know that the prizes for most improved or people that
have developed the most, because that's rewarding some real hard
graft there isn't it, rather than a sort of just
oh I can do this naturally. Yeah?
Speaker 3 (17:24):
How what is the best way to I mean? And
what this all really comes back to us. We all
want our kids to do well. This is not about,
for me, the final year of prize giving. It's about
their journey through school and recognizing effort. But what do
we know about the things that actually will motivate children
to do their best and to enjoy success?
Speaker 5 (17:46):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (17:47):
Well, I think the school So if we look at
think about the school, school systems are moving and have
been for quite a way now, moving away from that
sort of final exam, the exam being the big thing,
and there's lots of recognition throughout the year because there's
lots of opportunities for people for kids to do work
throughout the year, and university is definitely moving to that
(18:09):
as well. So I think that is quite helpful for
a number of kids who because it rewards that kind
of continual effort rather than maybe a big push at
the end. And I think that's probably useful for most
kids really, that that you know, you could you could
smash it towards the end of the year and get
a big prize, but actually slow and steady wins the
race and you're probably building up a whole lot better
(18:30):
skills if you're awarded throughout the year just for small
successes rather than waiting for one big one at the end.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
Is that something you really can make an influence influenced
kids on because there's a part of me that wonders
whether they are always going to be the ones who
are slow and steady and do well and that's set,
you know, that's set in their first few years of
life really, and the ones who are always going to
be the late ones who cram and you know, don't
put the effort in, but then cram and Cram and
Kram and Cram that's also a personality type. Can how
(18:55):
much can you change the asse?
Speaker 4 (18:59):
Yeah? I think you can change those essentially. Sure. I
think we have tendencies to be one or the other,
you know, a crammer or a slow and steady throughout
the year. But I think most people have got their
ability to be changed and shaped a little bit. And
you probably need to because you're going to go into
a life and a workforce that you need to be
a bit adaptable to. But it's definitely changeable. I think.
(19:22):
I think very few traits psychologically are kind of set
and fused from day one and can't be changed. Where
we have lots of impact by what goes on around us,
or we're impacted lots by what goes on around us.
Speaker 3 (19:36):
Do you remember what I used to motivate you? That's cool?
Speaker 2 (19:40):
I was.
Speaker 4 (19:43):
I think it was the intrinsic motivation of I did
well on a on a exam, or not even exam,
but you know, did well on an assignment, and and
that was good for me because but because I was
good at it anyway, it was sort of reinforced for
me that this was something I was good at, and
so but I did have to keep it quiet. I
could share with my parents, but I did shit with
(20:06):
my classmates. I would quickly look at my marking class
and then quickly put it in my bag so that
nobody else saw it.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
Really, Oh my goodness, you really were Did you get
picked on at school or something for being the clever kid?
Speaker 4 (20:18):
I didn't get picked on, but I avoided that by
having a very smart mouth. And so because I could
see that, I could see that was going to come
if I didn't say something, I was going to get
picked on for being a nerd. So I developed a
cutting sense of humor, which in hindsight was probably relatively cruel.
(20:38):
When I was at school, I.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
Think, oh, oh, well, yeah, that's look, it's you know,
it's survival. At school it felt a bit like that
Sutherland sort of, you know, in a position of power
and then you're just trying to keep your head above water,
won't you.
Speaker 4 (20:51):
Yeah, I was at that stage. You're looking back, it
would have been nice to have done things a little
bit differently, but yeah, as you say, it was a
bit of survival and the fittest in the in the
mid eighties at high school.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
Yeah, few texts here one says, I got to run
award at my school prizegiving for the amount of money
I raised throughout the year. When I was walking back
after receiving my award, I overheard parents mocking the rotary
award I got and saying they'd glad their kids got
a better award. Uh, definitely, at least partly for the parents,
(21:22):
or at least to make their parents proud.
Speaker 4 (21:25):
What the.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
Well, that's just a that's just an indictment on stupid parents,
isn't it that stupid people?
Speaker 4 (21:33):
Yeah, it's it's yeah, it's it's that. That does sound
like there's a whole lot of judginess going on and
a weighing up of it. Sounds to me like there
are too many prizes almost being given out of people
are starting to compare a levels of prizes. You know,
that sounds it sounds pretty nasty. Really it's yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
Actually, just out of curiosity, from a historical point of view,
we have come a long way. I just thought it's
worth pointing out. I wondered whether the dunce hat was
actually ever a real thing, But dunce hats were used
in schools in Europe, and this is the opposite of
the prize giving. Yeah, yeah, when literally if you'd done something, oh,
(22:13):
if you weren't doing very well or whatever. I don't
know why people got the dunce hat, but actually was
a thing, wasn't it a tall pointed hat used as
a form of punishment for children. Did you know about
the dunce I.
Speaker 4 (22:25):
Didn't know that it was. It was a real thing,
you know. I'd heard about a dunce cap, but I
didn't really realize it was a real thing. I think, yeah, yeah,
the gosh, that's really old school, isn't it. Let's punish
you in to try and to achieve better. That'll work. Yeah, yeah,
but it's interesting that it was a real thing.
Speaker 3 (22:44):
Of course, these days, if there was such a thing
as a dance cap, it would probably be used and
turned in social social media as some sort of badge
of honor, wouldn't it.
Speaker 4 (22:55):
Oh yeah, well that's yet. And to be fair, there's
probably social media dunce caps that people are inadvertently given.
I would imagine.
Speaker 3 (23:03):
Yeah, a few more texts, Haim. Oh, it's touching on
a couple of subjects we touched on. Hay, Tim, I
got the History in Latin prize at school too, and
I turned out, Okay, that's from Rosie. If you have
earned it, you should probably be able to get a
reward for your efforts. In the normal world, there are
no free lunches, And I think that's really the point,
isn't it. Trying to find that balance on rewarding kids.
(23:25):
Is that life? I mean, obviously you want to shelter
kids from the reality is of adult life and prepare,
but you also need to prepare them for it, won't
you when it comes to, you know, rewarding success as
opposed to turning up.
Speaker 4 (23:38):
And I think that's what we're going to look at
what you're rewarding. Sure, you can reward success, but also
you might reward really hard work and hard graft because
we know that that will get you a long way
as well. So yeah, if you can have a variety
of rewards, that's that's that sounds like a good thing.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
Yeah, right, let's take some more calls.
Speaker 7 (23:56):
Josh, Hello, Yeah, hey guys, good afternoon.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
How you doing, not bad?
Speaker 7 (24:03):
Hey, I'm just thinking about how you could possibly, you know,
create get the behavior won out of somebody by rewarding
them for doing the right thing. So, like I actually
got an attendance ward when I.
Speaker 4 (24:22):
Was a kid.
Speaker 7 (24:24):
Low and a teacher talked to me about it and
he's just kind of like, hey, man, what's up with
your attendants? And at the end of the year, I
got an attendance ward and how did you find out?
I thought that was good. I mean obviously reinforced you know,
(24:45):
attendants and made me think about attendants.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
Were you sort of just just taking a sideway step
at the school gate up until that point.
Speaker 7 (24:55):
No, Actually, like the picture was bigger than that. But
I think that the teacher was smart enough to know
that if he made it my concern and awarded me
for doing my best and showing up, that you know,
it was something worth worth achieving for me as as
an individual. Like it wasn't something everybody got. But the
(25:19):
way the teacher worked it was he sort of primed
me to be mindful of attendance and then reinforce the
award for you know, actually trying to work on it
as much as I could.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
Because that seems Josh and Dogle that chipping on this
is it. That's also a teacher who is speaking to
an individual student according to something that they see needs
to be.
Speaker 4 (25:46):
It's a great I think it's a great example of
how you can really use a reward or an award
in this case to actually shake the behavior that you want.
As Joshua was saying, that, you know, you move somebody
who's perhaps not attending very much into somebody who's, Ah,
there's something to achieve out of being here all the time,
and there'll be a whole lot of extra benefits that
you get from being at school all the time that
(26:08):
probably weren't rewarded. But yeah, great, great insight from the teacher.
Speaker 3 (26:12):
Did you get that reward publicly, josh or did you
just get yeah?
Speaker 7 (26:16):
Yeah, I did, actually yeah, yeah, as in a period
we were I was at one school and then we
moved somewhere for six months and then came back and
there was a few yeah, just resettling and all that
sort of cown. But no, I could give other examples
of that same teacher who yeah, really helped me with.
Speaker 3 (26:41):
Was that teacher quite a special? Was that teacher quite
a special teacher? Do you think when you look back,
When you.
Speaker 7 (26:47):
Look back, when you look back and your whole education,
there's probably three teachers that I would have in my
mind as profound, really good educators and this guy was
one of them. Definitely.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
Yeah, yeah, you're very lucky. Actually, Josh, I think to
have I mean, I think most people to have had
three that you look back on and thanks for your
core mate. I appreciate it because I think it's I
think at some stage in your education, every kid needs
just needs that one teacher, even if it's just that
one year, and everyone remembers it that. I mean, for me,
(27:22):
it was mister Paul when I was eight years old.
He made us feel ten feet tall. He made us
think if we cracked a joke, that we were funny.
He had a ladder for the Times tables where we
challenged each other, we had fun at class. We absolutely
we loved him because he just made us feel like
we were also and I'll never forget it.
Speaker 4 (27:43):
Yeah, No, I'm the same had. I think mine was
mister McHugh and Form seven. He was an English teacher
and he just he just made education come alive and
he got me interested in psychology. Actually I had been well,
I did go after union do law, but I did
psychology at the same time because of his influence. I mean,
he told us a whole lot of sort of myths
(28:04):
about it. Well, he thought they were true, so they
turned out to be lies. But putting that aside, he
was the one who got me interested in what.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
Turned out to me lies.
Speaker 4 (28:13):
Well, things like did you know did you know that
we only use ten percent of our brain? Oh? Wow,
Well I want to go and learn about the brain.
But he was very motivational and it got me interested
in psychology. And I wouldn't have been interested in that,
I don't think without him. So it's yeah, I think
it is great to have those one or two people
who really make that difference.
Speaker 3 (28:35):
Yeah, all right, we might take quick break. We've got
some more calls to come to and we'll be back
in just a moment. News Talk said be talking about
prize givings and motivating kids and what's the best way
to do it. It's twenty two minutes to sick.
Speaker 4 (28:48):
Well way up north Worthy.
Speaker 3 (28:51):
Ergis called There's a Tale about Christmas that.
Speaker 5 (28:54):
You Love Me? Yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:56):
That sounds like the Beats Boys a bit, doesn't it,
But I don't know if it is. But you can
tell this a Christmas song up from the lyrics because
there are sleigh bells in the background. You can turn
any Christmas song into a Christmas song any song into
a Christmas song by adding sleigh bells. Anyway, my guess
for the parent squad is Doogle Sutherland. And I've got
to say, by the way, you know how we got
the title the second part of your company wrong when
(29:20):
we said umbrella something the wrong description. I did get
some texts and somebody highlight highlighted to us there's an
umbrella corporation in the game Resident Evil. Yes, yes, that's
not your umbrella. Got in z.
Speaker 4 (29:36):
Let's get the right umbrella.
Speaker 3 (29:37):
Not anyway. Hey, actually, by the way, just on the
attendance thing rewarding intendans, quite that's the call from Josh
before I cynically, I sort of think, Gosh, in a way,
you always wonder whether it'd be worth having attendance awards
for the for the staggering levels of non attendants from kids.
(29:58):
But actually which is a serious issue just getting children
to school. But I was just noticing, I was thinking, actually,
hang on a minute, So I do. I do a
language learning app called Duo Lingo, which many people will
do well will know about, and they have a learning
streak sort of thing where you actually it does flashes
(30:19):
up little stars like hey, you're on day six hundred
and ninety nine today and it keeps me going because
I don't learn that lose that learning streak.
Speaker 4 (30:27):
So there is yeah, definitely, there's something in.
Speaker 3 (30:30):
The participation stakes, isn't there.
Speaker 4 (30:33):
Well, And that's what they call gamification, isn't it, and
making So it's creating some sort of game like rewards
into a learning process. And they try to use them
on a lot of apps, but for an exact reason
to get people to keep using them, because one of
the difficulties with apps is that people stop using them.
(30:54):
And so if you can gamify it and people get rewards,
and you know, you think about even it's not a
great example, but you think about the poking machines and
the rewards that people get from the flashlights and being
bing bing bing. We get a bit of a dopeing
hit from that, we get. Yeah, you get a little
bit of a dope mein hit from the from the
duo Lingo app as well, just.
Speaker 3 (31:15):
The Who's educational But it is just because they want
my yearly subscription when it rolls around.
Speaker 4 (31:21):
I hate to say that that might be part of it. Yeah,
I think I don't think they're doing it out of
a charitable cause, probably, but it does work. It's you know,
if we get that's the and that goes back to
that psychological sense of what a reward is. It's something
that you get after the behavior that makes it more
likely that the behavior will occur.
Speaker 3 (31:40):
Again, it's the intrinsic there's the intrinsic side of learning. Obviously,
I'm learning French because I want to be able to
speak it better, and That'll be the intrinsic reward. But yeah,
it's it's a bit of both, isn't it.
Speaker 4 (31:50):
Well, it's a long time before you might get the
reward from actually speaking French fluently, and so you probably
need something to keep you and keep going. Like even
Josh's example of one hundred percent attendance at school or
attendance at school he did well to last until the
end of the year. I think a lot of kids
would have probably gone, oh, that's far too long. So
(32:11):
that if we can get little rewards along the way,
that will help and then there might be one big
thing at the end.
Speaker 3 (32:17):
Yeah, yeah, so does is there is there a way
an education to give those dopamine hats though? So, I mean,
is that a legitimate form of encouragement those.
Speaker 4 (32:29):
Well, yeah, I mean you get it anyway. That's the
kind of intrinsic reward. The feel good is the dope
meine hit. The difficulty with dopamine and that sort of
intrinsic reward is that it's a bit morally neutral, so
that you can get a you can feel good about
doing anything. It doesn't necessarily mean it's it's the thing
(32:49):
that we want you to do. You feel good about
pulling the you know, punching the buttons on a poking machine.
That does doesn't actually mean that we want you to
do that behavior. As a society. Much more you can
get You can get a dopamine hit or a reward
intrinsic reward from getting out of something that you don't
want to do. So it's the intrinsic reward is great,
but you can get it for many many reasons, not
(33:10):
just necessarily the things that we want you to be doing.
Speaker 3 (33:13):
Okay, here's a text challenging the prize giving thing, but
says the whole problem is the fact that kids absolutely
know it is important to you. Their parents subtle, subtlety,
subtenly giving them subliminal messages. As you're refair to prize
giving or the kids that come first in these things.
Then you start to raise kids who want to please parents.
Parents should keep out of it, but they just don't. Therefore,
I'm against prize giving as it muddies the water of
(33:35):
working hard because the child themselves want it, wants to
for their own benefit, not for the benefit of the parent.
By the way, as a school prefect receive prizes and
now teacher, I just don't think prizes should Prizes should
motivate hard work or natural ability. We're all born with
different abilities. Once you leave school, it doesn't matter. A
lot of damage is done to those who get them
at school. I'm not much sure I agree with all that.
Speaker 4 (33:57):
But I'm not cult sure I do either. I mean,
I think a lot of us will do things because
it helps and we get recognized by other people and
it brings it might bring positive you know, pride to
our families or to our or when we're in the workplace,
to our workplace. But I think, yeah, different ones of
us will be motivated by Some will be really intrinsically
(34:18):
motivated to get that reward some of it. Some of
us will work hard because it helps other people and
it reflects well on our bigger family or our bigger
the group.
Speaker 3 (34:27):
That we belong to.
Speaker 4 (34:28):
And I think that's all right too. Now I'm not
sure I fully agree that it should only be for
our own individual reward and success that I think there
are other reasons that we might get rewarded or might
feel rewarded.
Speaker 3 (34:41):
To imagine, if you went to a high school, like
if there was a charter school that was all based
on zen, they definitely wouldn't have a price, they wouldn't.
Speaker 4 (34:51):
It reminded me of my daughter's school used to have
in the old days before COVID. They used to have
an award for one hundred percent attendance, so if you
went every day of the school year, and they quickly
ditched that after co because they realized that kids were
coming along sick and it was a great way of
spreading the flu around because they really some kids really
(35:13):
wanted to get the one hundred percent attendant award. So
that one's gone now, which I think is probably a
useful thing to have dropped.
Speaker 3 (35:19):
As soon as you mentioned the one hundred percent attendants award,
I thought, I actually thought for you said, and I thought,
I'll bet you that went by the way, So I
wouldn't COVID hit and of course, yeah, it's never too
far from from our from our thoughts. Hey Google, thank you,
thanks so much for your time this year. We can
get you back on as as one of our guests
on the On the Parents Squad for next year as well.
Speaker 4 (35:39):
Yeah, thanks Tim. It's it's it's always and time flies.
I find it's a great time and just chatting over
a few issues and yeah, time flies and it's it's
that time again. So yeah, thank you. It's been great.
Speaker 3 (35:50):
Are you having Are you taking a little bit of
time off?
Speaker 4 (35:53):
Yeah, taking a few weeks off, going to Alexandra, to
my wife's family for a week or so, and then
going to Auckland because my son and his partner are
expecting a baby.
Speaker 3 (36:03):
Oh oh my godness. Yeah, Otherland, my grandfather.
Speaker 4 (36:07):
Oh yeah, we haven't. Yeah, I'm not. I haven't quite
warmed up to that to that yet.
Speaker 3 (36:13):
Well, I'm sure on your website umbrella dot org dot
n z it's got some advice for dealing with some
of the big life changes that are getting your way.
Speaker 4 (36:22):
I'm going to have to take my own advice, I think,
aren't I.
Speaker 3 (36:24):
Well, you're looking very young, grandfather and We appreciate your
time this year. Merry Christmas.
Speaker 4 (36:30):
Yeah, thanks to Merry Christmas too as well.
Speaker 3 (36:31):
Mateas here, we'll be back shortly. Andrew Ordison is at
the Cricket and he's he'll be here to wrap sport
with us in just a moment. News Talks will be
eleven minutes to six.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
For more from the Weekend collective, listen live to News
Talks it'd be weekends from three pm, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks.
By next day you get.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Stanny Buddies Christmas, I give you the next Day Sandy Beach.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
And welcome back to the Weekend Collective. Ah, yes, a
little bit of wham or just George Michael, I think
it's wham Last Christmas? Last Christmas? Should I say I
forgot it was a Christmas song? But of course it's
got Christmas in the title. Anyway, I forgot. I didn't
forget it was a Christmas song. I forgot of thinking
of it when it as a song. When I was
doing talk bag, I'm thinking what are the good Christmas songs?
(01:07):
And somebody suggested Last Christmas. I was like, oh yeah,
a little bit of wham. There we go. Anyway, Welcome
to the Parents Squad. My guest is he's a psychologist
at Umbrella Academy and his name is Dougal Sutherland and Google,
good afternoon.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
How are you you're a term Umbrella well being, Umbrella
Academy evil? Sorry, Umbrella Academy, I think is like an
evil corporation in some video game. I believe.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
Oh well, okay, that's not us.
Speaker 4 (01:33):
I can tell you right now there's nothing evil there.
I'm all good.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
I don't know where academy came from. But anyway, that umbrella,
sorry about that.
Speaker 4 (01:41):
No, no, I'm going to look up what Umbrella Academy is. Now,
it was a TV show. It's a TV show.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
Remember that. I think my producer had a senior moment
and umbrella. She brought up some old memory. I'm going
to dig into that in the break. I'm going to
say what. Yeah, anyway, now, what's what's your website and
your your address for people to get in touch and
see the work that you do.
Speaker 4 (02:03):
That's a great umbrella dot dot z.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Dot org dot z. So what we want to talk about? Look,
it's it's interesting one, isn't it? The whole question, the
whole question about rewarding kids and giving them a kids
children awards for achievement and things. And as you will
(02:30):
have seen that there's a story out about school prize
givings and a question mark over whether these are good
or bad for children. And there's that school of thought
that you know, the well, there's a school of thought
in both directions, and that somehow if you are not
the kids who are not getting their award, the awards
maybe dis disheartened or something, and it sends and anyway
(02:54):
to me. Obviously, surprise givings have been something that have
been around when I was at school, and I never
gave them a second thought. Some kids got prizes and
some didn't, and I didn't really care about it. But
is there some sort of deeper sort of pearl clutching
we can do on this?
Speaker 4 (03:14):
Yeah, it's it is a It is a vexed one,
isn't it like on a bit like you? I think
in the end of year prizegiving, the way I see
it is meant to celebrate the big achievements of the year,
and I reckon there is a time and a place for,
you know, singling out people who've done well, whether that's
academically or sporting or culturally, and that's I think. I
(03:36):
think it's important that we celebrate that, that we recognize
people that have done really, really really well, because they
might not get it a lot otherwise. I think there's
too a place for awarding kids or recognizing kids who participate,
but that could I reckon that can be done during
the year that the prize giving. The prize givings are
sort of like the award it's a bit of the awards,
the Academy awards. You don't say, well, everybody can get
(03:58):
a can get an award, Academy award, can't they? It's like, no,
there are some that we and we and I don't
think we should shy away from celebrating that success.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
It's a bit like you know, the maybe there is
a time when kids. It's like with sporting teams that, yeah,
the kids catch up with this because you know, things
like player of the week, and the kids are not dumb,
and at some stage they become aware that there's a
bit of a merry go round, that it's such and
(04:28):
such as turn for player of the week. And as
soon as you turn into that, you might as well
not bother ya. I mean in the in the teams
that I sort of was a parent at I think
we try to. We may have got there may have
been kids who got it more than once or more often,
but and we would always look for a reason that
that player had got it, so it would have a
(04:50):
tangible way proving it. But kids are not dumb either,
are they when it comes to I just got that
because it was my team.
Speaker 4 (04:57):
Yeah, yeah, I like that kind of you know that
that approach that you're talking about there around you know
that there's got to be a reason, like, you know,
especially you know, I think back I coached kid's cricket teams,
and some of them, you know, they were I think
my son started when he was about eight or something
and played till he was in high school and so
(05:17):
he got recently good. But you saw a whole lot
of shapes and sizes and levels of ability and kids
during that time, and some you know, couldn't catch a ball.
But if they did manage to start catching a ball,
that might be something worth celebrating and that, you know,
but they'd be specifically picked out for that. Hey, you know,
you really improved in your fielding, which is great, and
(05:40):
that's something to be celebrated as well.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
I think, yeah, but I think we had move of
the day as well, because if somebody did something spectacular,
went for something, even if it failed to be like
your move of the day was you diving to try
and catch that ball and they didn't make it, that
was magnificent and they sort of go, yeah, it's cool.
I really yeah. Yeah, Because there was a time when
there was a school of thought, I don't know, who
(06:04):
where it came from, but where it was almost viewed
to be a cardinal sin to be selecting kids to
be celebrated ahead of others and their achievements.
Speaker 4 (06:12):
Have we moved?
Speaker 3 (06:14):
I don't think that this is what the story is about.
But there are things that you probably shouldn't be rewarding
kids for. But my take on that would be if
your child makes their bed and helps with the dishes,
that's not something we you need a badge for it.
There should be an intrinsic They should learn to do
lots of things in life simply because hey, I did that.
(06:34):
How cool is it?
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (06:36):
Look, I think there's some truth in that. I think though,
that sometimes when you're trying to get a behavior going
that isn't there, I don't know, making it, let's say,
making a bed just because you said that that rewarding
and sort of in strict psychological terms, which is giving
them something positive and making increasing the chances that they'll
(06:57):
do it again. That probably is a useful thing, I think,
And that's so you're not going to rward them forever.
But if they don't want to do it, or if
they don't know how to do it, they're not very
good at doing it, then giving them something afterwards that
makes the behavior more likely to occur. Again, that's a
definition of a psychological definition of a reward. I think it's.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
Useful as opposed to here's a lolly or ye over substantial.
Speaker 4 (07:23):
Yeah, yeah, it's just it's just a recognition and you
are trying to train a behavior. But I think that
is different from like a prize giving or or an
award for participation. Well yeah, one is you're trying to
get more of a behavior, the other you're recognizing something
about them. But yeah, I think, I think, I think, Look, yeah,
going back to that price giving, I really think I
(07:44):
remember I was I did pretty well at school academically,
but our school was not the type of school that
you celebrated being good academic.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
The awards and the price for Latin goes to doogle.
Speaker 4 (07:58):
If only I think they dropped Latin by the time
I got there, But no, our school was not. There
was no culture of selling embracing that. And I think
the only time I ever felt good about my school
achievement was probably a prize giving once where I got
a prize and people did clap and celebrate, and I
was like, oh, okay, once in the year, I feel
okay about doing well at school, which is a bit
(08:21):
of a sad in diament on in my high school.
But that's that's the way it was, and that was
useful for me. I thought, yeah, I do get recognized
at some level for doing this in front of.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
Everybody thattually interesting. I got the prize for history when
I was fifteen, I think, or sixteen or seven. Maybe
it was seventeen actually, and I don't remember remember feeling anything.
I sort of like, I don't actually wonder if prizegivings
are more for the parents in a way, because the
kids sort of go, yeah, I got this, and they
sort of wander up and they go cool. I mean,
(08:55):
I've got a photo of my daughter's at the prize
giving and they invite them up because they you know,
it's at a school where they have blistering levels of sess.
But there's a photo I took where they invite them
ten up at a time and they're standing there and
they all look so lum. And when my daughter, our
(09:19):
daughter's got a couple of awards, and I was thinking,
maybe the awards more for me, because we were just
so proud proud of them. Who do you think the kids.
Speaker 4 (09:29):
I definitely think you get that sense of pride as
a family member and as a parent, and there is
some I think it and in many ways for kids
that the awards are often a celebration of that the
family in a sense, because you know your parents have
invested a lot. But yes, I guess it's sometimes kids
can feel a bit embarrassed. Oh my god, I don't
(09:50):
really want to go with the rest of it in
the front of the school, and then mom and dad
are standing there clapping and jeering and the whole rest
of it. So yeah, probably families getting parents get more
out of it than than the kids do. I would
imagine at times.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
We'd love your calls on this about how to get look,
I don't know, I ask the obvious text question is
like a prize givings helpful or harmful, But how do
you get it right when it comes to celebrating success
versus I don't I think participation awards are probably the
(10:27):
worst prize you can give to a kid because they
know they're just being given it for turning up. That
would be my general rule on it. But I think
the one that we used to sort of as kids.
Poor scorn On was that the effort an improvement award?
But I think these days actually the effort an improvement
award is probably one of the most significant ones some
kid who has turned around something. So we'd love your
(10:48):
calls on this. On eight hundred eighty ten eighty. Do
you love the prize givings or do you hate the
fact that they single our excellence and the other kids
who miss out it just contributes to their sense of
something inadequacy or something I'm overplaying. I'm overstaining my hand
on that. But what do you think? Do you like
(11:09):
prize givings? Are they helpful or harmful? O eight one
hundred eighty ten eighty text nine to nine till them.
We'll take a break now and we'll come back with
your calls if you like. I'd love to hear from you.
It's eighteen past five news talks he'd be.
Speaker 5 (11:20):
He's saying on a song it is we go along,
whilcome you glmbo on the name Well in Movado you
can build a storemat and pretended he has passed round,
He'll say, are you married? Will send no man, but
you can do the job. When you're on town letter
(11:44):
will inspire.
Speaker 3 (11:46):
Ah, Yes, this one's for you. Doogle google Sutherland from
umbrella dot org. God end z it because I think
you might have told Tyra and she's trying to make
up for your company company name wrong. This is a
bit of Dean Martin, a bit of Christmas.
Speaker 4 (12:01):
Yeah, lovely, isn't it? Classic classic Kroner.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
I like the old of Christmasy crooney stuff.
Speaker 4 (12:06):
It's just yea yeah, I do too. I've got this.
I've got a cassette tape of a Frank Sinatra Christmas
Special with Dean Martin coming on as well. It's it's
it sounds like it's a recording of some sort of
radio show that they did, but it was a it
was a different time back then in the fifties.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
Funny thing is he was the one his his his
sort of persona on stage was the one. He was
always fond of a drink, but apparently he didn't drink
very much, and it was Sinatra who drink like for sure. Yeah,
so they turned the tables on that. Anyway, we're talking
about prize givings, so let's take your calls on this.
Eight hundred and eighty ten eighty Daytona. Hello, Hi there, Hello,
(12:46):
how are you hi?
Speaker 6 (12:47):
Can Yeah, I'm good, Thank you.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
What would you like to share with us about the
prize givings?
Speaker 6 (12:53):
Yeah, I won the most improved part of a prizegiving
in high school and it was a bit embarrassing, but
at the same time that he said that it's an improvement,
like a something.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
It's true when you got it, what did you Were
you surprised and were you were you thrilled or were
you sort of did you sort of.
Speaker 6 (13:14):
Me my cohort, which it just seems like you're you're Yeah,
it's just not it's kind of looked down.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
How long ago?
Speaker 4 (13:22):
Was that?
Speaker 6 (13:23):
Years ago?
Speaker 3 (13:29):
Okay? Well, and what do you think of it now
when you look back, or would you would you want
your family members of yours to get the most improved
because it's actually pretty good prize when you think of it.
Speaker 6 (13:37):
Yeah, absolutely, I mean that's the means it's an improvement.
You're stepping up a later.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
Good on it, Good on your thanks for that, Daytona.
So it's a bit of a bit of a scratchy
phone line. Then I think Google you might have had
trouble hearing that that Daytona was saying when she got
the most Improved awards, she sort of cringed a bit,
but she's actually quite proud she got it. Looking back
fifteen years later.
Speaker 4 (13:58):
Yeah, funny, that, isn't it that that when you look
back on it, go, Actually that was and that's a
good thing. I reckon, that's really good. You know that
often in the moment, especially as teenagers, teenagers never like
to be the center of attention, weirdly because they always
like to be the center of attention at the same time,
don't they. But if you put them up up on
stages like no, no, but actually it does sink in.
I think Daytona's example sort of showed that it sinks
(14:20):
in later on.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
I wonder if it depends on the school and the
sort of community I guess, but I think probably that
when it came to prize giving, kids who got awards
for sporting prowess did actually enjoy that. I think we
are shifting a bit with the appreciating academic success, that
aren't we.
Speaker 4 (14:40):
Yeah? I think so. My son when he was at school,
he went to a fairly traditional sort of boys' school,
and you know Verse fifteen and Blues for cricket, et
cetera with a thing. But they were really pushing to
recognize academic excellence and cultural excellence as well. And I
think that was good because I think sporting always sort
of gets it. But yeah, the wider and the broader
(15:01):
you can make it. I think we're going to get better,
better results if we're if we recognize lots of talents.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
Yeah, what is the I mean, what are the ways too?
From a psychological point of view, I guess, or not
from me, you know, just from a human to human
point of view. But encouraging kids to actually, because there
are some kids who are motivated by extrinsic things. They
want to win the prize and they go healthful leather
for that. I have a daughter who did say when
she didn't get all the top of prize, she did well,
(15:28):
but she saw some other girls getting better prizes. I
actually said to my wife. I've already repeated myself from
the panel here because I was telling my panelists about this,
But I said to my wife on the way home,
I said, I bet you such and such says that
she might try a bit harder next year because she
wants to win those prizes. And I was driving around
and she was in the back seat. She goes, Daddy,
(15:49):
I might try a bit harder next year's And I said, really,
why is that? So she's motivated by both, you know,
her own sense of satisfaction, but she does like the
extrinsic Yeah.
Speaker 4 (16:00):
Look, I think I think sort of. There are different
personality styles and there you know, some are really motivated
by competition and that's great, and some aren't so much
motivated by competition, and that it just won't quite have
the same impact the horses for courses. I guess if
your kid is motivated by that competition, that's probably great.
They'll probably learn some good lessons along the way. And
(16:21):
the fact that they can't win all the time, you know,
they might be I had the experience of going to
from school to UNI, and UNI is a whole different ballgame,
and all of a sudden you go, oh, I'm not
I'm a little fish in a big pool now. But
that's okay, you can that's that's good learning as well.
That's good learning. Well.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
I don't know what the stats show in terms of
the people who become the biggest successes in life, but
I have a suspicion that it's not necessarily the people
who rock and roll at school who necessarily turn into
the biggest successes. I would have thought, in fact, for
kids who this is what This is why I think
if you're a naturally talented, gifted child, that the the
(17:03):
prizes that might flow when you actually haven't much if
it don't necessarily serve you that well do they?
Speaker 4 (17:09):
Yeah? No, It goes back to your point around you
know that the prizes for most improved or people that
have developed the most, because that's rewarding some real hard
graft there isn't it, rather than a sort of just
oh I can do this naturally. Yeah?
Speaker 3 (17:24):
How what is the best way to I mean? And
what this all really comes back to us. We all
want our kids to do well. This is not about,
for me, the final year of prize giving. It's about
their journey through school and recognizing effort. But what do
we know about the things that actually will motivate children
to do their best and to enjoy success?
Speaker 5 (17:46):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (17:47):
Well, I think the school So if we look at
think about the school, school systems are moving and have
been for quite a way now, moving away from that
sort of final exam, the exam being the big thing,
and there's lots of recognition throughout the year because there's
lots of opportunities for people for kids to do work
throughout the year, and university is definitely moving to that
(18:09):
as well. So I think that is quite helpful for
a number of kids who because it rewards that kind
of continual effort rather than maybe a big push at
the end. And I think that's probably useful for most
kids really, that that you know, you could you could
smash it towards the end of the year and get
a big prize, but actually slow and steady wins the
race and you're probably building up a whole lot better
(18:30):
skills if you're awarded throughout the year just for small
successes rather than waiting for one big one at the end.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
Is that something you really can make an influence influenced
kids on because there's a part of me that wonders
whether they are always going to be the ones who
are slow and steady and do well and that's set,
you know, that's set in their first few years of
life really, and the ones who are always going to
be the late ones who cram and you know, don't
put the effort in, but then cram and Cram and
Kram and Cram that's also a personality type. Can how
(18:55):
much can you change the asse?
Speaker 4 (18:59):
Yeah? I think you can change those essentially. Sure. I
think we have tendencies to be one or the other,
you know, a crammer or a slow and steady throughout
the year. But I think most people have got their
ability to be changed and shaped a little bit. And
you probably need to because you're going to go into
a life and a workforce that you need to be
a bit adaptable to. But it's definitely changeable. I think.
(19:22):
I think very few traits psychologically are kind of set
and fused from day one and can't be changed. Where
we have lots of impact by what goes on around us,
or we're impacted lots by what goes on around us.
Speaker 3 (19:36):
Do you remember what I used to motivate you? That's cool?
Speaker 2 (19:40):
I was.
Speaker 4 (19:43):
I think it was the intrinsic motivation of I did
well on a on a exam, or not even exam,
but you know, did well on an assignment, and and
that was good for me because but because I was
good at it anyway, it was sort of reinforced for
me that this was something I was good at, and
so but I did have to keep it quiet. I
could share with my parents, but I did shit with
(20:06):
my classmates. I would quickly look at my marking class
and then quickly put it in my bag so that
nobody else saw it.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
Really, Oh my goodness, you really were Did you get
picked on at school or something for being the clever kid?
Speaker 4 (20:18):
I didn't get picked on, but I avoided that by
having a very smart mouth. And so because I could
see that, I could see that was going to come
if I didn't say something, I was going to get
picked on for being a nerd. So I developed a
cutting sense of humor, which in hindsight was probably relatively cruel.
(20:38):
When I was at school, I.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
Think, oh, oh, well, yeah, that's look, it's you know,
it's survival. At school it felt a bit like that
Sutherland sort of, you know, in a position of power
and then you're just trying to keep your head above water,
won't you.
Speaker 4 (20:51):
Yeah, I was at that stage. You're looking back, it
would have been nice to have done things a little
bit differently, but yeah, as you say, it was a
bit of survival and the fittest in the in the
mid eighties at high school.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
Yeah, few texts here one says, I got to run
award at my school prizegiving for the amount of money
I raised throughout the year. When I was walking back
after receiving my award, I overheard parents mocking the rotary
award I got and saying they'd glad their kids got
a better award. Uh, definitely, at least partly for the parents,
(21:22):
or at least to make their parents proud.
Speaker 4 (21:25):
What the.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
Well, that's just a that's just an indictment on stupid parents,
isn't it that stupid people?
Speaker 4 (21:33):
Yeah, it's it's yeah, it's it's that. That does sound
like there's a whole lot of judginess going on and
a weighing up of it. Sounds to me like there
are too many prizes almost being given out of people
are starting to compare a levels of prizes. You know,
that sounds it sounds pretty nasty. Really it's yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
Actually, just out of curiosity, from a historical point of view,
we have come a long way. I just thought it's
worth pointing out. I wondered whether the dunce hat was
actually ever a real thing, But dunce hats were used
in schools in Europe, and this is the opposite of
the prize giving. Yeah, yeah, when literally if you'd done something, oh,
(22:13):
if you weren't doing very well or whatever. I don't
know why people got the dunce hat, but actually was
a thing, wasn't it a tall pointed hat used as
a form of punishment for children. Did you know about
the dunce I.
Speaker 4 (22:25):
Didn't know that it was. It was a real thing,
you know. I'd heard about a dunce cap, but I
didn't really realize it was a real thing. I think, yeah, yeah,
the gosh, that's really old school, isn't it. Let's punish
you in to try and to achieve better. That'll work. Yeah, yeah,
but it's interesting that it was a real thing.
Speaker 3 (22:44):
Of course, these days, if there was such a thing
as a dance cap, it would probably be used and
turned in social social media as some sort of badge
of honor, wouldn't it.
Speaker 4 (22:55):
Oh yeah, well that's yet. And to be fair, there's
probably social media dunce caps that people are inadvertently given.
I would imagine.
Speaker 3 (23:03):
Yeah, a few more texts, Haim. Oh, it's touching on
a couple of subjects we touched on. Hay, Tim, I
got the History in Latin prize at school too, and
I turned out, Okay, that's from Rosie. If you have
earned it, you should probably be able to get a
reward for your efforts. In the normal world, there are
no free lunches, And I think that's really the point,
isn't it. Trying to find that balance on rewarding kids.
(23:25):
Is that life? I mean, obviously you want to shelter
kids from the reality is of adult life and prepare,
but you also need to prepare them for it, won't
you when it comes to, you know, rewarding success as
opposed to turning up.
Speaker 4 (23:38):
And I think that's what we're going to look at
what you're rewarding. Sure, you can reward success, but also
you might reward really hard work and hard graft because
we know that that will get you a long way
as well. So yeah, if you can have a variety
of rewards, that's that's that sounds like a good thing.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
Yeah, right, let's take some more calls.
Speaker 7 (23:56):
Josh, Hello, Yeah, hey guys, good afternoon.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
How you doing, not bad?
Speaker 7 (24:03):
Hey, I'm just thinking about how you could possibly, you know,
create get the behavior won out of somebody by rewarding
them for doing the right thing. So, like I actually
got an attendance ward when I.
Speaker 4 (24:22):
Was a kid.
Speaker 7 (24:24):
Low and a teacher talked to me about it and
he's just kind of like, hey, man, what's up with
your attendants? And at the end of the year, I
got an attendance ward and how did you find out?
I thought that was good. I mean obviously reinforced you know,
(24:45):
attendants and made me think about attendants.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
Were you sort of just just taking a sideway step
at the school gate up until that point.
Speaker 7 (24:55):
No, Actually, like the picture was bigger than that. But
I think that the teacher was smart enough to know
that if he made it my concern and awarded me
for doing my best and showing up, that you know,
it was something worth worth achieving for me as as
an individual. Like it wasn't something everybody got. But the
(25:19):
way the teacher worked it was he sort of primed
me to be mindful of attendance and then reinforce the
award for you know, actually trying to work on it
as much as I could.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
Because that seems Josh and Dogle that chipping on this
is it. That's also a teacher who is speaking to
an individual student according to something that they see needs
to be.
Speaker 4 (25:46):
It's a great I think it's a great example of
how you can really use a reward or an award
in this case to actually shake the behavior that you want.
As Joshua was saying, that, you know, you move somebody
who's perhaps not attending very much into somebody who's, Ah,
there's something to achieve out of being here all the time,
and there'll be a whole lot of extra benefits that
you get from being at school all the time that
(26:08):
probably weren't rewarded. But yeah, great, great insight from the teacher.
Speaker 3 (26:12):
Did you get that reward publicly, josh or did you
just get yeah?
Speaker 7 (26:16):
Yeah, I did, actually yeah, yeah, as in a period
we were I was at one school and then we
moved somewhere for six months and then came back and
there was a few yeah, just resettling and all that
sort of cown. But no, I could give other examples
of that same teacher who yeah, really helped me with.
Speaker 3 (26:41):
Was that teacher quite a special? Was that teacher quite
a special teacher? Do you think when you look back,
When you.
Speaker 7 (26:47):
Look back, when you look back and your whole education,
there's probably three teachers that I would have in my
mind as profound, really good educators and this guy was
one of them. Definitely.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
Yeah, yeah, you're very lucky. Actually, Josh, I think to
have I mean, I think most people to have had
three that you look back on and thanks for your
core mate. I appreciate it because I think it's I
think at some stage in your education, every kid needs
just needs that one teacher, even if it's just that
one year, and everyone remembers it that. I mean, for me,
(27:22):
it was mister Paul when I was eight years old.
He made us feel ten feet tall. He made us
think if we cracked a joke, that we were funny.
He had a ladder for the Times tables where we
challenged each other, we had fun at class. We absolutely
we loved him because he just made us feel like
we were also and I'll never forget it.
Speaker 4 (27:43):
Yeah, No, I'm the same had. I think mine was
mister McHugh and Form seven. He was an English teacher
and he just he just made education come alive and
he got me interested in psychology. Actually I had been well,
I did go after union do law, but I did
psychology at the same time because of his influence. I mean,
he told us a whole lot of sort of myths
(28:04):
about it. Well, he thought they were true, so they
turned out to be lies. But putting that aside, he
was the one who got me interested in what.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
Turned out to me lies.
Speaker 4 (28:13):
Well, things like did you know did you know that
we only use ten percent of our brain? Oh? Wow,
Well I want to go and learn about the brain.
But he was very motivational and it got me interested
in psychology. And I wouldn't have been interested in that,
I don't think without him. So it's yeah, I think
it is great to have those one or two people
who really make that difference.
Speaker 3 (28:35):
Yeah, all right, we might take quick break. We've got
some more calls to come to and we'll be back
in just a moment. News Talk said be talking about
prize givings and motivating kids and what's the best way
to do it. It's twenty two minutes to sick.
Speaker 4 (28:48):
Well way up north Worthy.
Speaker 3 (28:51):
Ergis called There's a Tale about Christmas that.
Speaker 5 (28:54):
You Love Me? Yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:56):
That sounds like the Beats Boys a bit, doesn't it,
But I don't know if it is. But you can
tell this a Christmas song up from the lyrics because
there are sleigh bells in the background. You can turn
any Christmas song into a Christmas song any song into
a Christmas song by adding sleigh bells. Anyway, my guess
for the parent squad is Doogle Sutherland. And I've got
to say, by the way, you know how we got
the title the second part of your company wrong when
(29:20):
we said umbrella something the wrong description. I did get
some texts and somebody highlight highlighted to us there's an
umbrella corporation in the game Resident Evil. Yes, yes, that's
not your umbrella. Got in z.
Speaker 4 (29:36):
Let's get the right umbrella.
Speaker 3 (29:37):
Not anyway. Hey, actually, by the way, just on the
attendance thing rewarding intendans, quite that's the call from Josh
before I cynically, I sort of think, Gosh, in a way,
you always wonder whether it'd be worth having attendance awards
for the for the staggering levels of non attendants from kids.
(29:58):
But actually which is a serious issue just getting children
to school. But I was just noticing, I was thinking, actually,
hang on a minute, So I do. I do a
language learning app called Duo Lingo, which many people will
do well will know about, and they have a learning
streak sort of thing where you actually it does flashes
(30:19):
up little stars like hey, you're on day six hundred
and ninety nine today and it keeps me going because
I don't learn that lose that learning streak.
Speaker 4 (30:27):
So there is yeah, definitely, there's something in.
Speaker 3 (30:30):
The participation stakes, isn't there.
Speaker 4 (30:33):
Well, And that's what they call gamification, isn't it, and
making So it's creating some sort of game like rewards
into a learning process. And they try to use them
on a lot of apps, but for an exact reason
to get people to keep using them, because one of
the difficulties with apps is that people stop using them.
(30:54):
And so if you can gamify it and people get rewards,
and you know, you think about even it's not a
great example, but you think about the poking machines and
the rewards that people get from the flashlights and being
bing bing bing. We get a bit of a dopeing
hit from that, we get. Yeah, you get a little
bit of a dope mein hit from the from the
duo Lingo app as well, just.
Speaker 3 (31:15):
The Who's educational But it is just because they want
my yearly subscription when it rolls around.
Speaker 4 (31:21):
I hate to say that that might be part of it. Yeah,
I think I don't think they're doing it out of
a charitable cause, probably, but it does work. It's you know,
if we get that's the and that goes back to
that psychological sense of what a reward is. It's something
that you get after the behavior that makes it more
likely that the behavior will occur.
Speaker 3 (31:40):
Again, it's the intrinsic there's the intrinsic side of learning. Obviously,
I'm learning French because I want to be able to
speak it better, and That'll be the intrinsic reward. But yeah,
it's it's a bit of both, isn't it.
Speaker 4 (31:50):
Well, it's a long time before you might get the
reward from actually speaking French fluently, and so you probably
need something to keep you and keep going. Like even
Josh's example of one hundred percent attendance at school or
attendance at school he did well to last until the
end of the year. I think a lot of kids
would have probably gone, oh, that's far too long. So
(32:11):
that if we can get little rewards along the way,
that will help and then there might be one big
thing at the end.
Speaker 3 (32:17):
Yeah, yeah, so does is there is there a way
an education to give those dopamine hats though? So, I mean,
is that a legitimate form of encouragement those.
Speaker 4 (32:29):
Well, yeah, I mean you get it anyway. That's the
kind of intrinsic reward. The feel good is the dope
meine hit. The difficulty with dopamine and that sort of
intrinsic reward is that it's a bit morally neutral, so
that you can get a you can feel good about
doing anything. It doesn't necessarily mean it's it's the thing
(32:49):
that we want you to do. You feel good about
pulling the you know, punching the buttons on a poking machine.
That does doesn't actually mean that we want you to
do that behavior. As a society. Much more you can
get You can get a dopamine hit or a reward
intrinsic reward from getting out of something that you don't
want to do. So it's the intrinsic reward is great,
but you can get it for many many reasons, not
(33:10):
just necessarily the things that we want you to be doing.
Speaker 3 (33:13):
Okay, here's a text challenging the prize giving thing, but
says the whole problem is the fact that kids absolutely
know it is important to you. Their parents subtle, subtlety,
subtenly giving them subliminal messages. As you're refair to prize
giving or the kids that come first in these things.
Then you start to raise kids who want to please parents.
Parents should keep out of it, but they just don't. Therefore,
I'm against prize giving as it muddies the water of
(33:35):
working hard because the child themselves want it, wants to
for their own benefit, not for the benefit of the parent.
By the way, as a school prefect receive prizes and
now teacher, I just don't think prizes should Prizes should
motivate hard work or natural ability. We're all born with
different abilities. Once you leave school, it doesn't matter. A
lot of damage is done to those who get them
at school. I'm not much sure I agree with all that.
Speaker 4 (33:57):
But I'm not cult sure I do either. I mean,
I think a lot of us will do things because
it helps and we get recognized by other people and
it brings it might bring positive you know, pride to
our families or to our or when we're in the workplace,
to our workplace. But I think, yeah, different ones of
us will be motivated by Some will be really intrinsically
(34:18):
motivated to get that reward some of it. Some of
us will work hard because it helps other people and
it reflects well on our bigger family or our bigger
the group.
Speaker 3 (34:27):
That we belong to.
Speaker 4 (34:28):
And I think that's all right too. Now I'm not
sure I fully agree that it should only be for
our own individual reward and success that I think there
are other reasons that we might get rewarded or might
feel rewarded.
Speaker 3 (34:41):
To imagine, if you went to a high school, like
if there was a charter school that was all based
on zen, they definitely wouldn't have a price, they wouldn't.
Speaker 4 (34:51):
It reminded me of my daughter's school used to have
in the old days before COVID. They used to have
an award for one hundred percent attendance, so if you
went every day of the school year, and they quickly
ditched that after co because they realized that kids were
coming along sick and it was a great way of
spreading the flu around because they really some kids really
(35:13):
wanted to get the one hundred percent attendant award. So
that one's gone now, which I think is probably a
useful thing to have dropped.
Speaker 3 (35:19):
As soon as you mentioned the one hundred percent attendants award,
I thought, I actually thought for you said, and I thought,
I'll bet you that went by the way, So I
wouldn't COVID hit and of course, yeah, it's never too
far from from our from our thoughts. Hey Google, thank you,
thanks so much for your time this year. We can
get you back on as as one of our guests
on the On the Parents Squad for next year as well.
Speaker 4 (35:39):
Yeah, thanks Tim. It's it's it's always and time flies.
I find it's a great time and just chatting over
a few issues and yeah, time flies and it's it's
that time again. So yeah, thank you. It's been great.
Speaker 3 (35:50):
Are you having Are you taking a little bit of
time off?
Speaker 4 (35:53):
Yeah, taking a few weeks off, going to Alexandra, to
my wife's family for a week or so, and then
going to Auckland because my son and his partner are
expecting a baby.
Speaker 3 (36:03):
Oh oh my godness. Yeah, Otherland, my grandfather.
Speaker 4 (36:07):
Oh yeah, we haven't. Yeah, I'm not. I haven't quite
warmed up to that to that yet.
Speaker 3 (36:13):
Well, I'm sure on your website umbrella dot org dot
n z it's got some advice for dealing with some
of the big life changes that are getting your way.
Speaker 4 (36:22):
I'm going to have to take my own advice, I think,
aren't I.
Speaker 3 (36:24):
Well, you're looking very young, grandfather and We appreciate your
time this year. Merry Christmas.
Speaker 4 (36:30):
Yeah, thanks to Merry Christmas too as well.
Speaker 3 (36:31):
Mateas here, we'll be back shortly. Andrew Ordison is at
the Cricket and he's he'll be here to wrap sport
with us in just a moment. News Talks will be
eleven minutes to six.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
For more from the Weekend collective, listen live to News
Talks it'd be weekends from three pm, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio
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