October 12, 2024 • 35 mins
Children will often insist on having music or a TV show playing in the background while they study, but how distracting is it really?
Also, how are single parents able to cope with all the decision making and responsibilities they have to do alone?
Neuroscience trainer Kathryn Berkett joins Tim Beveridge to discuss this and more.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Be good friends, and welcome back. This is the Weekend Collective.
(00:46):
If you just joined us, you're a couple of hours late.
But if you hit our couple of hours late, you
want to catch our earlier hours. The panel with Mark
Krassel and Wilhelmine Shrimpton. Great fun, Wilhelm and is just
Scott engaged. We had a bit of not fun at
her expense. We celebrated that a little bit. And also
the Wonderof Radio show with Debbie Roberts from Property of
But right now the Parents Squad and my guest is
(01:07):
Catherine Burkett. Good afternoon, Good afternoon. How are you doing
all right? Keep me out of my good thank you?
Speaker 3 (01:16):
Well sort of, that's good.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
That's good, that's good. We want to talk about the
whole kids study and homework thing. And I said tomorrow
they go back to school, but of course it's Monday.
I think I must be mentally on Sunday already. And
just the best way to get your kids to study,
let's just say successfully, let's not put too much on it.
(01:40):
You want them to study what they need to study.
You want them to do well, you're not reay to
grind their gears too much. But then again, you want
them to spend the time that they're spending effectively, so
things like playing music and all that. What did I mean,
what was your approach as a as a mum to
kids homework and especially exam time, study time.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
Yeah, there's some brain science around it. I mean, the
brain science says that we can't multitask and when we're
doing multi things that our brain is trying to concentrate on,
you know, opening up different areas of the brain. But
in practical terms, certainly through lockdown when my kids were
trying to do work, my daughter wants complete silence and
(02:23):
so I couldn't even play any music when she was
trying to study. But I remember one day my son
actually wasn't during lockdown. He was a bit behind on
work and he was in the lounge. He said he'd
get his stuff finished because in the lounge he had
the TV on, he had his phone next to him
watching the basketball or something. And I went in he
was working. I was like, nah, you need to turn
(02:43):
all that off. And I said, just a minute, actually,
I'll tell you what, show me what you're up to
what you've done. I'm going to come back in an
hour and I'm going to check in and how much
you've done. And he had done a heap of work
and he got it all done by the end of
the day. And the teacher even wrote and said she
couldn't believe how much work he had got completed. So
there's science.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
And actually that's counterintuitive to me.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
Absolutely to me as well, Yeah, that's.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Interesting because I would think, I think, okay, because I
haven't thought about this too much, but I look back
to when in terms of just being hassled to do homework.
But I think it's probably about the environment. So if
he's watching the basketball, I don't think he's working. But
if he's got the basketball on because he loves the
(03:31):
vibe of it and it's something when he sits back,
he goes, oh, what's the score, I'll call on back
into it. If the environment is conducive to him to study,
I can see why that would work. But if it's
if he's on his phone, well.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
We need it. Yeah, that's what we need to just
And that's what I'm saying. It's totally opposite to what
I would have I couldn't do it. But what we've
got to do as parents is stop telling them to
put a jersey on because we're cold. Right. So, so
that's the way that my brain worked, So I'm assuming
that's the way his brain works. And it's not like
I like music. I like to go. I'm writing a
(04:05):
book at the moment, and I have to go down
to a cafe where it's noisy, where it's where it's
really busy so that I can focus. If I sit
at home, I can't do it.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Now.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
Other people say they could never do that. What we've
got to do is say to a young people, is
you prove to me that you can get work done
in this space. I'll check in on you. And if
they are, then how are we to say, would you
put a jewzy on?
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Actually, I do think that it's easy to confuse it.
When you were talking about he had what did he
have on? He had music and the basketball or what
was it?
Speaker 3 (04:39):
Yeah, the basketball when he had his phone next to him,
which to me is very distracting. But yeah, you.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
See, because I think that if he was actually watching
the basketball actively, then he wouldn't have been getting the
work done. But do you think it? You think what
I said before is more closer to the point that
he was. Simply, it's like his version of a busy cafe.
Some people like a you know, sit there with a
coffee or something. There are people coming in and going,
but you focus on things and you like the atmosphere.
(05:06):
You who run. Whereas if he was watching it, it
would be okay, buddy, you've been watching that and cheering
and what have you got done? Bugger all.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
Yeah, And that's exactly it. So I gave him a
chance to show and then as a you know, I
would keep checking in. If you were thinking, Okay, they've
done the first hour and they've got it done. Next
minute they think, oh cool, mum, that they're not watching
me anymore, I'm off the hook, I would just say,
if you want all this distraction around you, then you
need to prove that you can still get it done.
So I'm just going to check in every hour, every
(05:38):
couple of hours, and I want to see that there's
some more work done. And if they are doing it,
then were we to judge what they're doing. But if
they're not, then you have the right to say, no,
that's distracting. You are watching it now, I can see
that it's got down to the final whatever, and that's okay.
But I think what we're doing is we're assuming that
that's how I studied, that's how I learned, therefore that's
(06:00):
how they should and that's not the right way of parenting.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
How do you, well, just from your own point of view,
how do you best get stuff done? Do you need
silence or do you need some other sort of vibe?
Speaker 3 (06:17):
Yeah, Like I said, I'm trying to write a book,
and I don't like writing. I talk much better than
I write, So I do go down to a cafe
where there's lots of distraction and I have I feel
like I have to hone in and concentrate, Whereas at
home I'm sort of up and I'll go do the
washing or do something else. You'll find something to distract me.
So I prefer chaos around me. But I grew up
with five siblings and a mad household, so potentially that's
(06:41):
or maybe it's just genetics. I don't know what is it.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
I mean, your specialty is a neuroscience. What is what
do we know about the way the brain works in
this respect in terms of learning, focusing, studying.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
What we what we shouldn't be doing is multitasking. So
when and we can't multitask, but that word is used
to think that we do two things at once, but
what we're actually doing is shutting down one part of
our brain and opening up the other. So we can't
do things like right and then check an email and
then answer the phone call. That's multitasking. But if you've
got something and you were describing the basketball as being
(07:20):
a background thing, that's a really lower brain behavior. It's
very procedural. We don't have to concentrate on it. That
actually arms the brain. I was doing a presentation yesterday
and there was a lady knitting up there and showed
me all of the knittings she'd got done. And that's
a very low lower brain procedural thing that helps the
upper brain engage. But you can't do multiple upper brain
(07:42):
things because we have to switch between them. That's not good.
So you don't want them going on social media and
then going back to their work and doing that. Do
you see? You don't want them. And the reason I
could leave my son with his phone is because he's
not a social media person. If it was my daughter,
I probably would have taken the phone off because she's
a social media person and she might have been switching
into that, But again that's up to you as a parent.
(08:05):
Brain can't switch between cognitive tasks. Sorry, it switches between
it and that uses energy. It can't do two cognitive
tasks at once.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
Okay, this has made me rethink a couple of things
with my own kids, because we're on a bit of
a warpath about phones. Just you know, my kids are
not that old either. They're twelve and thirteen, and we're
sort of on the warpath because we want them to
not rely on their phones. As every parent, you don't
want them to be joined at the hippen. They can
(08:35):
be addictive. But for instance, I think my daughter, one
of my daughters, likes to have a bit of music
on when she's doing her homework, and I think we
might have rained on that, paraded a bit. But now
I'm sort of thinking maybe so long as she's not
checking her messages all the time, because I suspect that's
the music is the pretext for being able to keep
(08:55):
in touch on the messages. But if it was just
music and that's what she wants to listen to she's
got her headphones on, then I'm thinking I need to
chill out on that a bit.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
Yeah, And in all honesty, what I'd do is, if
it's only music that she wants, then she can put
the music on, she can transfer it to her headphones,
and the phone can stay next to you and she
still gets her music. And you know she's not checking
your messages, right, So if it is about the music,
then she can agree to that and she can have
the music.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
What's music? Because you talk about the upper brain up,
what's the expression you used upper and lower one of
them's in the background and the other ones. You know,
that's multitasking level.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
Yeah, So I use the words red and green brain
when I train, And the red brain is the lower brain.
It's the two year old brain. It's what we can do.
It's the stuff that we do without thinking, procedural stuff,
automatic stuff. And then the green brain is the very cortical,
executive functioning, thinking processing part of the brain. Really, so
we can have something like music, or we could walk,
or we could be sitting on a Swiss ball. You know,
(09:56):
those sorts of things are really good for the lower
part of the brain. The lady who was knitting was
very clear to me that she didn't have a she
didn't have a pattern. She was just doing it all
from me. If she'd been looking at a pattern and
having to learn a new way of knitting, that would
have been upper brain, green brain. But she was very procedural.
She knew how to do it without even thinking. So
that's the difference. You can do a lower brain in
(10:18):
an upper brain task at the same time, but two
upper brain tasks require switching between an energy transfer.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Okay, by the way, you want your calls on this
O eight hundred and eighty ten and eight. How do
you approach getting your kids? Oh, I want to find
a nice way of asking this question. Sorry, I guess
opposed to getting your kids to do this? How do
you support support that? Thank you, thank you, Catherine. How
do you support your kids to get their homework done
or their exam study done to a level where they
(10:48):
are going to do their best and give themselves a
good chance at success? And I didn't say maximize because
I think that just implies all this pressure and everything
that you're going to do. You're going to nail everything.
But so your kids are establishing themselves with good habits,
so when they turn up for the exam, they've done
the work they need to do to give them a
good shot at really doing well, and do you actually
(11:09):
ride them on it? Because I always had to think
of my own childhood because my kids aren't at exam
age yet. And I don't know if my mum ever
told me to go and study Catherine. I think she
might have, but I might have ignored her, and I
just I was a last minute sort of guy anyway,
And I think I've got the exam tomorrow, I better
do some work on it, which was probably not ideal.
(11:32):
But then again, I think if Mama just nagged me
into doing it when she thought I should do it,
I'm not sure that what that would have achieved. Maybe
a plus, who knows.
Speaker 3 (11:43):
I mean, come on, life is we're successful in life
because we make our own track. So if you're going
to have to nag and nag and nag, then seriously,
what's that meaning for your child's future? And also there's
so much genetics. I never really pushed my kids in
a big way to study, and my daughter was just
a massive studyer, that's just what she did. My son
not so much. I actually had to ask my daughter
(12:04):
to stop studying sometimes and chill out. But you know,
completely the opposite for my son, so there was the difference.
But you're definitely if you're going to nag, that's not
going to work. Also, the brain can't continue to concentrate
in the green brain for long periods of time, so
we do need to let them have brakes, go for
a walk, have something to eat, you know, stop and
(12:24):
do something that's not cognitive brain. So you know, laugh
with you.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Yeah, I'm hilarious. It's easy. He actually just on that.
I've got lots of questions. I've got a few texts
on this stuff as well. Let's just go as somebody's
texting me saying I'm thinking about ADD as I'm listening
to you, Attention deficit disorder. And of course there's all
(12:51):
the different acronyms or whatever. I can't keep up with them.
But are there certain brains that either need not distraction
but need other stuff going on, like you like the
noisy cafe and things. But in a way, that's your
silence from what you described to me, because otherwise you're thinking,
I've got to go do the washing and do this
at home, so you remove yourself from distractions. But are
(13:12):
there certain brains that need stimulation outside music, noise, chaos,
and what makes the difference between those who need Look
if I hear a pin drop, I'm distracted.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
And again that's genetics, that is neurodiversity. Absolutely, there's some brains,
but not every ADHD or add any person works in
the same way. So there's more difference within neurodiversity categories
than between. And why I'm saying that is because again,
just check in with your kid and just say, how
do you work best? What can I create for you?
(13:50):
What situation can I create? Again, during lockdown, my daughter
had to go away and aid to be really careful
about not playing my music when I was working because
she found that really difficult and really distracting. So I
respected her space. So let's check in and yes, this
diagnosis can help, but actually just ask a young person
and the diagnoses don't define us. They give us a
(14:13):
little bit of guidance.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Yeah, we want to have for you, Oh eight hundred
eighty ten and eighty what how do you support your
kids when it comes to studying for exams and homework?
And is it okay to study with distractions? Because I
think the point that Catherine Burkert our guest has made
is that just because your cold, don't make your kids
stick on a jersey, they might be fine. It's a
(14:34):
little bit of an approach probably every parents should take
just about on every issue. I think we'll think of
some exceptions to that they won't be Catherine in the
break it is twenty one minutes past five News Talks.
You'd be helping your kids to study, and also should
you just let them? Should you push them? Or do
you need Is there a point where you're like, okay, me,
Naggin's not going to do it. Maybe you have to
(14:56):
learn this lesson the hard way. Eight hundred eighty ten
and eighty twenty one past five. No Crystal Long Sancho
(15:17):
that she's bad blood paper, Captain Sancho, and welcome back.
This is the weekend Collective untim Beverage, and this is
the parents Squad. My guest is she is an educational
psychologist with her Actually, how do we you've got it? Do?
I say? With a bent on neuroscience? So how do
we put it? Catherine Burkeert, you're Acien.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
I'm actually not an I'm not an education with a psychologist.
I haven't done my registration, but I do have my
masters of educational psychology, just to clarify, but that's okay.
I call myself a neuroscience trainer.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Okay, so you've done a master's in educational psychology and
you're a neuroscientist. Whether okay, there we go, well, we'll we'll,
we'll tighten that one.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
Up something like that. And I'm applying for my doctorate.
So and in six years you'll be able to introduce
me as a doctor. Fantastic sex years.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
I was actually just chatting with my producer that you
look very relaxed and bright eyed and bushy tail today
or something. We're thinking, wonderful, wonder if you wonder what
you've been what's been keeping you busy or not.
Speaker 3 (16:18):
Been knowing the lawns today? So maybe it's beautiful sunny day.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Virtuous glow, that's what it is. There we go. You know,
we're talking, let's take some calls. We're talking about how
to get your kids to support your kids to study
and how much you should push them to actually do
some homework because there will be the procrastinators and the
prevaricadas and all that. Let's go to a call here, Jan.
Speaker 4 (16:40):
Hello, Hikin and Ti Hi, I have a couple of ideas,
and I'd like to ask you about Catherine. When I
was doing my nursing training, I found reading the notes
onto a tape and then playing the tape while it
was sleeping at night helped me to retain a lot
(17:04):
of them information. Quite surprisingly it worked.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Well, Okay, that's one, we'll love that one away. What
was the second question?
Speaker 4 (17:13):
And the other one is with communicating with anybody, children especially,
You can make a mood barometer. It's a bit like
a clock, and you have on one side all the
happy adjectives and on the other side all the sad adjectives,
(17:35):
and you have the big hand in the little hand,
your little hand. The child can move it to how
they're feeling their mood and because often they have trouble
expressing how they're feeling or what they want to communicate,
and it gives a doorway into the communication between adult
(18:00):
and child, and the adult can move the large hand
to indicate how to read in the child.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
What age is the child at this stage when you're doing.
Speaker 4 (18:13):
This, anyone, okay, couple you know, and you can hang
it on the wall. So it seems you can buy
a little clip thing literally pushed through the whole to
join the hands and together.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
That's an interesting one. Does sound like something you could
also move quite passively aggressively on moving the little hand
to angry right now. But actually that first to comment
from jan there on the studying. I have heard about
people the subliminal stuff when you're sleeping. I must say
that sounds like the short path to hell for me.
But is there anything in that you know, her having
dictated her notes and then playing them back at night
(18:54):
as she's falling asleep or asleep.
Speaker 3 (18:58):
I can't talk to the sleeping stuff could be. I
can't say yes or no. But what I definitely know
is that the more the more ways we put it
into our brain, if we have to use different parts
of our cortex to process that information, it actually the
process of learning is myelination. We connect the cells through myelination.
That is increased if we're listening and talking, and you
(19:21):
know that sort of thing. So I always if I
found something quite difficult, I'd read it out loud to
myself when I did, because I knew that now I'm
speaking it and hearing it and reading it all those
parts of my brain at the same time, increased the
myelination and increase the likelihood that the brain will remember that.
So absolutely, the using different modes of sensory does definitely help.
(19:45):
It's excellent information.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
Yeah. Actually, what's the thing with concentration as well, my
memory is that when it comes to really learning and
absorbing information effectively, twenty twenty five minutes at a time
is pretty much the max you can do when you're
in that green zone, I guess, Or is it longer
than that? What do we know?
Speaker 3 (20:08):
Gain genetics, Some people can do it for amazing amounts
of time, and we've got to be careful about things
like that. Theoretically, you can't train for more than a
certain amount of time, but I have for twenty years
and it's still been you know, people taken info. So
it also depends on how you do it. To really
focus is hard. But I can focus. If I get
into focus, I can do it for an hour and
I haven't faulted in my focus. If I'm writing, if
(20:30):
I can get really into that zone, but then other
days I can't. So I think we need to be
really careful with words and numbers like that. But you
can't do it for a long, long period of time
because it takes a massive amount of energy. So it's
actually the energy that's being used to activate those parts
of the brain. You need to go and move and
walk around and you know, have a dance or something.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
Texas says. My seventeen year old son gets great results
at school. He has the Big Bang theory on continuously
while doing his study at home. It drives me nuts
until I realized he was actually learning and doing great.
He did find exams difficult because of the distractions of
one hundred other students being around him. In preparation this
year for exams, he stops the Big Band theory a
(21:14):
couple of weeks before the exams. Very common within his cohort.
Love your shows, Tim, Well, that's very nice. Thank you
for you. That's a comedy. I would find it that
quite a distraction unless he's listened to it so many times.
It's just a familiar sound.
Speaker 3 (21:30):
Yeah, my son. Again, he has the office and stuff
on in the background all the time and he just
doesn't seem to notice it. So again, that's beautiful to
hear that the parent is listening to the young man's
way of learning. What she has noticed and what is
something that we do need to put into context is
that the way that the brain puts information in is
the way it's more likely to take her out. So
(21:52):
it is right than in exams it's often very quiet,
you can't move, and so that is sometimes the way
we need to practice being able to regurgitate this information.
We might take it in a certain way. But then,
like she said, she's that weeks four and some of
the friends have done that is because they need to
learn while they're regurgitating that information to do it with silence,
(22:14):
you know, quiet, because that's what the situation of the
exam is. So there is the research that suggests that
as well.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
That intuitively makes sense because you get people who study
and do well in their and they do terribly in exams.
And I would have a suspicion that from some of those,
if not many of them, it's simply because the environment
of an exam is so foreign that their brain is
massively distracted just by the fact they're not comfortable.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
And stress response is huge in exams, I mean, in
my opinion, exams are first to assessing whether that human
can get themselves into a calm enough state and feel
confident enough and safe enough in that space to access
their green brain. After that, if the informations there can
you know, they can get it out. But actually most
(23:02):
exams are actually testing whether we can get into the
cortical areas of our brain. And that's why I disagree
with them in some ways, because some of our young
people do activate a bit of stress in there and
they're not able to process the stuff that they do
know and get it down. But we have exams, so
we've got to learn how to do them the best way.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
It's interesting that I do. I've been banging on to
my audience. Will know, I've been teaching myself French through
an app. But they have time trial sort of vocabulary matchups,
and when you get into it, I know if I
get tense about trying to finish within time, otherwise I
have to start again, and so this anxiety builds up
(23:43):
and I become less and less good at it. And
I've actually found that if I tell myself that almost
not to engage with it at all, just it's there,
the vocabulary, and if I basically just look at it
and go, well, my brain knows the answer. I just
see what my brain can do without caring. I can
almost go twice as fast because my brain is making
the connections that it knows without that the nervous pulse,
(24:05):
and how much it can cock up your progress. It's
quite amazing how much quicker you can be if you
simply don't care. And when I say don't care, you
know what I mean. When I reduce the anxiety of
the competitive nature, it's just like, well, what sounds to that?
And what's that? Whereas if somebody said this hundred bucks
on this, I might stumble.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
Yep. My daughter's doing law exams this year and one
of her exams is fifty percent of the year's mark,
and if she fails, then she has to sit the
whole year again. That's a lot of pressure on one exam. Now,
luckily she does quite well because she's learned lots of
ways and she's done you know that sort of stuff,
and so hopefully she'll be right. But there's a lot
of young people that for that, just walking in there,
(24:46):
just knowing the pressure. You can't say it doesn't matter
like your friends, you know. And that's why we do
need to let our kids have as many exams because
you've learnt through doing it. We do need to advocate
for our kids being in exams in undergrads and you know,
in their early years at college. Let them be in exams.
People say they're anxious, so they shouldn't have exams in
year nine and ten. Actually give them as many exams
(25:09):
as possible, give them as many things in sports spaces
or whatever that's going to make them tense and anxious,
and talk to them about that so that they can
realize that actually, what you've realized is what they need
to realize, because otherwise that's going to be the hindrance
to the exam success rather than the knowledge.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
That's interesting that my daughter's schools they are having tests
and exams. I think that's you know, they have from
third form which is year year nine nine, and I
thought that was a bit earlier. But they're probably onto
it because they're introducing them to that when it really
doesn't matter, even though exactly and.
Speaker 3 (25:48):
It does matter, but also it doesn't matter because they're
not going to fail and they have to sit the
year again, which could happen if by the time we
get to year twelve. So that's why weis a lot
of parents go, no, we shouldn't be having them, because
they're making our kids anxious and year nine. Well, actually
i'd rather than make get anxious and year nine talk
to them about it, get them to understand that exactly
what you have said, chill out, How can we do this?
(26:10):
What would work next time? Hey, you got better next
time and the exam you did way better than you
did last time, which means next time you'll be even better.
So that's the sort of reason we should be having
practice so we can learn not to hopefully learn to
get less anxious. And by the way, that's a really
really easy thing to say, a difficult thing to do.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Oh, it's well, even from my own experience, it's actually
quite highly meditative to tell yourself you don't care you
know that, to reduce that anxiety, because I know it's
a funny one, isn't it. It's a complete letting go
of all the things that would other world that you
care about. In a way. But back in my day
in law school, I don't know what it was like
(26:52):
when you were doing exams in your first undergraduate days,
but it was just about all on the exam law school.
In fact, I think probably eighty percent sometimes maybe the
whole year all on an exam. Great fun anyway, Hey,
what about with kids who just start doing the work.
(27:15):
They've got exams coming up, and they're just finding excuses,
they're procrastinating, they're avoiding. There's got to be a role
parents can play in that process. But how do you
play it?
Speaker 3 (27:28):
Yeah, and I'm going to give you some advice, but
obviously every kid's different. But really I've talked to a
lot of parents in this space. The biggest thing for
a young people, and statistically especially a young boys, but
it's not only a young boys, is this sense that
they're not good enough, the sense that they they if
(27:50):
they're not academic, if they're not successful there, then they're
not worthy. And our levels of depression and other behaviors
are increasing because they feel like they're not worth it,
not useful that then they don't have money in this space,
and for me, if you're doing this and your young
(28:11):
person really doesn't want to study and really isn't doing well,
if you continuously focus on the fact that they have
to be academically successful in order for you to feel
that they're worthy, you are doing a huge, huge disservice
to your young person, And personally, I would run. I
know that academics are important and I know it's great
for young people who are academic, but if my young
(28:35):
person isn't doing and my son left with no credits
for school, none whatsoever. I think he's got three or
six or something like that, I don't know. And then
he went on to another course that he enjoyed and
excelled and now he's working Scott work, heaps of work,
doing amazing stuff. Why I'm saying that is because what
we need to focus on is making sure our young
people feel wanted, needed, accepted, connected, And if you are
(28:57):
harping on about them studying, then that's not going to happen.
So I do ask you to, ah, think what is
most for my young person?
Speaker 2 (29:06):
Is there a way of harping on such a such
an old school expression, but is there a way of
doing it where you can say, look, you know, I
know you're not confident with this stuff, but just give
it your best go and whatever your best is, that's great.
But wouldn't it be shame not to give it a crack?
Is there a way? I mean, I guess what I'm
as I'm saying that, I'm thinking that those conversations need
(29:28):
to happen six months earlier anyway, don't they.
Speaker 3 (29:32):
And that's the feeling they need to have early. But
also it's about saying, actually, if you do want to
study with your music on, or if you do want
to study in front of big Bang, then if that's
going to get you studying, then do it. But a
lot of parents are saying you need to study my
way when I ask you to, and so they're not
getting the engagement. So let's think how could I change
my space to make it so that young person might engage.
(29:52):
But if you can say that and you can engage them,
then that's fine. I'm thinking that the question there is
about young people who literally are not going to engage.
And I would ask you to think, what's the most
important thing for our young people? And it's to connected
and valued.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
Somebod who's actually texted saying the AI is just around
the corner for everything we're talking about, but it says
I'm currently studying nursing. The best thing I've found for
exams is a whig website called jungle Wizdolia whatever it is.
Import websites. You can import powerpoints, et cetera. It makes
quiz questions with AI and actually I've got another. My
(30:29):
producers just told me that there are websites where you
upload key documents for the course you're studying, and it
uses AI to turn it into a podcast where two
people chat to each other and ask questions about the topic.
Part of me wants to go that sounds like the devil.
Don't fall for it, But it might actually be something
(30:49):
in there. It's just I would imagine that half compiling
all the information to give to AI itself would possibly
be good study in its own right, you know what
I mean. Going through the process of engaging with whatever works.
Speaker 3 (31:03):
You have to try and elate data, make sure it's
right anyway. And how cool is that? I mean, what
if people said radio, Oh my goodness, radio is going
to ruin our world. If we had sat back and
not let radio progress, we wouldn't be here. So we
do have to go with the times. You do have
to know that AI is here. I'm actually personally just
writing a paper and I have found an AI site
that can help me write my paper and it's absolutely
(31:25):
fascinating and it'll give me the core I I still
need to check it. No, it's not an exam, but
it's it's for something in do buy, so I'm hoping
it won't matter. But why I'm saying it is because
our kids have got AI if they can learn to
use it. But if it can make a quiz for you,
or if it can make a podcast that can listen
(31:47):
to and take that information and they still have to
regurgitate it in the exam we're going to learn it,
then yeah, why not.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
Do as well? And that if you compile that information
and in the process of doing it and I've got
to put all this into AI, you've probably done a
fair bit of swat already. And in fact, let's teake
some calls on this.
Speaker 5 (32:08):
And I'm just calling regarding the talk. You guys been heavy.
Speaker 2 (32:14):
It's just.
Speaker 5 (32:16):
Like, you know, I grew out of it and I've
had uh, I've had a rich family in bull but
then I was the youngest of my family and so
the expectations they had on me when I came to
New Zealand about studying and how because my parents were
quite old, the like we were like we're aging family,
(32:37):
so we came here likes for like maybe in their forties.
I was the younger in the family. We were working
and all that. But then when we came to New Zealand.
Everything just seemed a bit different and how the influence
got to me and all that, Like, they just had
a different expectation of me of doing how my father
and everyone was making making money and making the wealth.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
So how did you How did it work for you
with your study?
Speaker 5 (33:03):
Show hasn't worked out for me. I'm eight years old
and I'm still I'm uh, they're finally understood about how
things work out, you know, they've always expected.
Speaker 4 (33:14):
Me to do.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
It didn't help you? Yeah, hey, Raj. Unfortunately your phone
line's a bit sketchy, so I couldn't quite catch what
you were saying. But I think Raj was saying how
it didn't work out from because his parents implosed their
own expectations and what it should be doing. Is that
what you caught from that, Catherine?
Speaker 3 (33:34):
Yeah, sounds sounds quite typical, isn't it that I'm saying
about the Jersey on when you're cold? And I think
that's what we do. I mean tell you, we as parents,
all we want is the best for our kids. And
we thought if only I had studied harder, if I
had studied harder, I could have done that. And so
I'm going to make my kids study harder. Well, actually,
the world's not just about education. The world is about
(33:54):
having a life and experiencing things and finding your own
way through these things. And if we continuously push our
kids through, you know, force to do these things, and
as soon as they're away from ups, they're going to
make their own decisions and find their own way anyway.
So why don't we while we're with them and we
can support that scaffold it, not push it directly, then
(34:16):
why don't we let them find a good way and
negotiate with them and work it out with them and
support them.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
Yeah, I must. I think I've learned something from that,
because I've always just assumed, and especially when you're a parent,
you just have this what are you doing over there?
Why have you get your phone with you? Are you
listening to music? And well, what are you doing? You're
doing homework? Well, how can you focus when you're doing that?
And actually, just for me, just pointing out the fact
that the bleeding obvious now you say it, Catherine, that
everyone's got a different way of working and just got
to find out what's working for them. So long as
(34:43):
they are trying to do what that's what they're trying
to do.
Speaker 3 (34:49):
And I will, but I will say and all honesty,
and I've done my device zombies TEDx Talk, and I'll
talk about devices all the time. They are addictive. It's
like saying to an alcoholic, go and study, and I'll
put a bottle of gin next to you. It Actually,
we do need to be a bit careful with devices.
And that's why I say. If she's said she wants
music on, then I would say, absolutely, you can have
your music and your earphones, but the phone staying out
(35:09):
here in the lounge, well where I am. Do you
know I would? I would support my child by reducing
their ability to access their device if they are a
device addictive kid.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Great advice. Hey Catherine, time flies when you're having fun.
Thanks so much for your time. People want to check
out your work. Where do they go?
Speaker 3 (35:28):
Engage training dot co, do in Z. I'm about to
upload some brand new videos in a week or two
once it's relaunched, so check out on the TEDx Talk
and podcasts with Peel Today are on there as well,
so lots of things to look up.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
Fantastic. Thanks for your time, Catherine, Thank you. We'll catch
again soon. We'll be back in just a moment. We're
wrapping sport with Andy McDonald is with us at quarter
two six.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to News
Talk z' be weekends from three pm, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Be good friends, and welcome back. This is the Weekend Collective.
(00:46):
If you just joined us, you're a couple of hours late.
But if you hit our couple of hours late, you
want to catch our earlier hours. The panel with Mark
Krassel and Wilhelmine Shrimpton. Great fun, Wilhelm and is just
Scott engaged. We had a bit of not fun at
her expense. We celebrated that a little bit. And also
the Wonderof Radio show with Debbie Roberts from Property of
But right now the Parents Squad and my guest is
(01:07):
Catherine Burkett. Good afternoon, Good afternoon. How are you doing
all right? Keep me out of my good thank you?
Speaker 3 (01:16):
Well sort of, that's good.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
That's good, that's good. We want to talk about the
whole kids study and homework thing. And I said tomorrow
they go back to school, but of course it's Monday.
I think I must be mentally on Sunday already. And
just the best way to get your kids to study,
let's just say successfully, let's not put too much on it.
(01:40):
You want them to study what they need to study.
You want them to do well, you're not reay to
grind their gears too much. But then again, you want
them to spend the time that they're spending effectively, so
things like playing music and all that. What did I mean,
what was your approach as a as a mum to
kids homework and especially exam time, study time.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
Yeah, there's some brain science around it. I mean, the
brain science says that we can't multitask and when we're
doing multi things that our brain is trying to concentrate on,
you know, opening up different areas of the brain. But
in practical terms, certainly through lockdown when my kids were
trying to do work, my daughter wants complete silence and
(02:23):
so I couldn't even play any music when she was
trying to study. But I remember one day my son
actually wasn't during lockdown. He was a bit behind on
work and he was in the lounge. He said he'd
get his stuff finished because in the lounge he had
the TV on, he had his phone next to him
watching the basketball or something. And I went in he
was working. I was like, nah, you need to turn
(02:43):
all that off. And I said, just a minute, actually,
I'll tell you what, show me what you're up to
what you've done. I'm going to come back in an
hour and I'm going to check in and how much
you've done. And he had done a heap of work
and he got it all done by the end of
the day. And the teacher even wrote and said she
couldn't believe how much work he had got completed. So
there's science.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
And actually that's counterintuitive to me.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
Absolutely to me as well, Yeah, that's.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Interesting because I would think, I think, okay, because I
haven't thought about this too much, but I look back
to when in terms of just being hassled to do homework.
But I think it's probably about the environment. So if
he's watching the basketball, I don't think he's working. But
if he's got the basketball on because he loves the
(03:31):
vibe of it and it's something when he sits back,
he goes, oh, what's the score, I'll call on back
into it. If the environment is conducive to him to study,
I can see why that would work. But if it's
if he's on his phone, well.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
We need it. Yeah, that's what we need to just
And that's what I'm saying. It's totally opposite to what
I would have I couldn't do it. But what we've
got to do as parents is stop telling them to
put a jersey on because we're cold. Right. So, so
that's the way that my brain worked, So I'm assuming
that's the way his brain works. And it's not like
I like music. I like to go. I'm writing a
(04:05):
book at the moment, and I have to go down
to a cafe where it's noisy, where it's where it's
really busy so that I can focus. If I sit
at home, I can't do it.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Now.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
Other people say they could never do that. What we've
got to do is say to a young people, is
you prove to me that you can get work done
in this space. I'll check in on you. And if
they are, then how are we to say, would you
put a jewzy on?
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Actually, I do think that it's easy to confuse it.
When you were talking about he had what did he
have on? He had music and the basketball or what
was it?
Speaker 3 (04:39):
Yeah, the basketball when he had his phone next to him,
which to me is very distracting. But yeah, you.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
See, because I think that if he was actually watching
the basketball actively, then he wouldn't have been getting the
work done. But do you think it? You think what
I said before is more closer to the point that
he was. Simply, it's like his version of a busy cafe.
Some people like a you know, sit there with a
coffee or something. There are people coming in and going,
but you focus on things and you like the atmosphere.
(05:06):
You who run. Whereas if he was watching it, it
would be okay, buddy, you've been watching that and cheering
and what have you got done? Bugger all.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
Yeah, And that's exactly it. So I gave him a
chance to show and then as a you know, I
would keep checking in. If you were thinking, Okay, they've
done the first hour and they've got it done. Next
minute they think, oh cool, mum, that they're not watching
me anymore, I'm off the hook, I would just say,
if you want all this distraction around you, then you
need to prove that you can still get it done.
So I'm just going to check in every hour, every
(05:38):
couple of hours, and I want to see that there's
some more work done. And if they are doing it,
then were we to judge what they're doing. But if
they're not, then you have the right to say, no,
that's distracting. You are watching it now, I can see
that it's got down to the final whatever, and that's okay.
But I think what we're doing is we're assuming that
that's how I studied, that's how I learned, therefore that's
(06:00):
how they should and that's not the right way of parenting.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
How do you, well, just from your own point of view,
how do you best get stuff done? Do you need
silence or do you need some other sort of vibe?
Speaker 3 (06:17):
Yeah, Like I said, I'm trying to write a book,
and I don't like writing. I talk much better than
I write, So I do go down to a cafe
where there's lots of distraction and I have I feel
like I have to hone in and concentrate, Whereas at
home I'm sort of up and I'll go do the
washing or do something else. You'll find something to distract me.
So I prefer chaos around me. But I grew up
with five siblings and a mad household, so potentially that's
(06:41):
or maybe it's just genetics. I don't know what is it.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
I mean, your specialty is a neuroscience. What is what
do we know about the way the brain works in
this respect in terms of learning, focusing, studying.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
What we what we shouldn't be doing is multitasking. So
when and we can't multitask, but that word is used
to think that we do two things at once, but
what we're actually doing is shutting down one part of
our brain and opening up the other. So we can't
do things like right and then check an email and
then answer the phone call. That's multitasking. But if you've
got something and you were describing the basketball as being
(07:20):
a background thing, that's a really lower brain behavior. It's
very procedural. We don't have to concentrate on it. That
actually arms the brain. I was doing a presentation yesterday
and there was a lady knitting up there and showed
me all of the knittings she'd got done. And that's
a very low lower brain procedural thing that helps the
upper brain engage. But you can't do multiple upper brain
(07:42):
things because we have to switch between them. That's not good.
So you don't want them going on social media and
then going back to their work and doing that. Do
you see? You don't want them. And the reason I
could leave my son with his phone is because he's
not a social media person. If it was my daughter,
I probably would have taken the phone off because she's
a social media person and she might have been switching
into that, But again that's up to you as a parent.
(08:05):
Brain can't switch between cognitive tasks. Sorry, it switches between
it and that uses energy. It can't do two cognitive
tasks at once.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
Okay, this has made me rethink a couple of things
with my own kids, because we're on a bit of
a warpath about phones. Just you know, my kids are
not that old either. They're twelve and thirteen, and we're
sort of on the warpath because we want them to
not rely on their phones. As every parent, you don't
want them to be joined at the hippen. They can
(08:35):
be addictive. But for instance, I think my daughter, one
of my daughters, likes to have a bit of music
on when she's doing her homework, and I think we
might have rained on that, paraded a bit. But now
I'm sort of thinking maybe so long as she's not
checking her messages all the time, because I suspect that's
the music is the pretext for being able to keep
(08:55):
in touch on the messages. But if it was just
music and that's what she wants to listen to she's
got her headphones on, then I'm thinking I need to
chill out on that a bit.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
Yeah, And in all honesty, what I'd do is, if
it's only music that she wants, then she can put
the music on, she can transfer it to her headphones,
and the phone can stay next to you and she
still gets her music. And you know she's not checking
your messages, right, So if it is about the music,
then she can agree to that and she can have
the music.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
What's music? Because you talk about the upper brain up,
what's the expression you used upper and lower one of
them's in the background and the other ones. You know,
that's multitasking level.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
Yeah, So I use the words red and green brain
when I train, And the red brain is the lower brain.
It's the two year old brain. It's what we can do.
It's the stuff that we do without thinking, procedural stuff,
automatic stuff. And then the green brain is the very cortical,
executive functioning, thinking processing part of the brain. Really, so
we can have something like music, or we could walk,
or we could be sitting on a Swiss ball. You know,
(09:56):
those sorts of things are really good for the lower
part of the brain. The lady who was knitting was
very clear to me that she didn't have a she
didn't have a pattern. She was just doing it all
from me. If she'd been looking at a pattern and
having to learn a new way of knitting, that would
have been upper brain, green brain. But she was very procedural.
She knew how to do it without even thinking. So
that's the difference. You can do a lower brain in
(10:18):
an upper brain task at the same time, but two
upper brain tasks require switching between an energy transfer.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Okay, by the way, you want your calls on this
O eight hundred and eighty ten and eight. How do
you approach getting your kids? Oh, I want to find
a nice way of asking this question. Sorry, I guess
opposed to getting your kids to do this? How do
you support support that? Thank you, thank you, Catherine. How
do you support your kids to get their homework done
or their exam study done to a level where they
(10:48):
are going to do their best and give themselves a
good chance at success? And I didn't say maximize because
I think that just implies all this pressure and everything
that you're going to do. You're going to nail everything.
But so your kids are establishing themselves with good habits,
so when they turn up for the exam, they've done
the work they need to do to give them a
good shot at really doing well, and do you actually
(11:09):
ride them on it? Because I always had to think
of my own childhood because my kids aren't at exam
age yet. And I don't know if my mum ever
told me to go and study Catherine. I think she
might have, but I might have ignored her, and I
just I was a last minute sort of guy anyway,
And I think I've got the exam tomorrow, I better
do some work on it, which was probably not ideal.
(11:32):
But then again, I think if Mama just nagged me
into doing it when she thought I should do it,
I'm not sure that what that would have achieved. Maybe
a plus, who knows.
Speaker 3 (11:43):
I mean, come on, life is we're successful in life
because we make our own track. So if you're going
to have to nag and nag and nag, then seriously,
what's that meaning for your child's future? And also there's
so much genetics. I never really pushed my kids in
a big way to study, and my daughter was just
a massive studyer, that's just what she did. My son
not so much. I actually had to ask my daughter
(12:04):
to stop studying sometimes and chill out. But you know,
completely the opposite for my son, so there was the difference.
But you're definitely if you're going to nag, that's not
going to work. Also, the brain can't continue to concentrate
in the green brain for long periods of time, so
we do need to let them have brakes, go for
a walk, have something to eat, you know, stop and
(12:24):
do something that's not cognitive brain. So you know, laugh
with you.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Yeah, I'm hilarious. It's easy. He actually just on that.
I've got lots of questions. I've got a few texts
on this stuff as well. Let's just go as somebody's
texting me saying I'm thinking about ADD as I'm listening
to you, Attention deficit disorder. And of course there's all
(12:51):
the different acronyms or whatever. I can't keep up with them.
But are there certain brains that either need not distraction
but need other stuff going on, like you like the
noisy cafe and things. But in a way, that's your
silence from what you described to me, because otherwise you're thinking,
I've got to go do the washing and do this
at home, so you remove yourself from distractions. But are
(13:12):
there certain brains that need stimulation outside music, noise, chaos,
and what makes the difference between those who need Look
if I hear a pin drop, I'm distracted.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
And again that's genetics, that is neurodiversity. Absolutely, there's some brains,
but not every ADHD or add any person works in
the same way. So there's more difference within neurodiversity categories
than between. And why I'm saying that is because again,
just check in with your kid and just say, how
do you work best? What can I create for you?
(13:50):
What situation can I create? Again, during lockdown, my daughter
had to go away and aid to be really careful
about not playing my music when I was working because
she found that really difficult and really distracting. So I
respected her space. So let's check in and yes, this
diagnosis can help, but actually just ask a young person
and the diagnoses don't define us. They give us a
(14:13):
little bit of guidance.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Yeah, we want to have for you, Oh eight hundred
eighty ten and eighty what how do you support your
kids when it comes to studying for exams and homework?
And is it okay to study with distractions? Because I
think the point that Catherine Burkert our guest has made
is that just because your cold, don't make your kids
stick on a jersey, they might be fine. It's a
(14:34):
little bit of an approach probably every parents should take
just about on every issue. I think we'll think of
some exceptions to that they won't be Catherine in the
break it is twenty one minutes past five News Talks.
You'd be helping your kids to study, and also should
you just let them? Should you push them? Or do
you need Is there a point where you're like, okay, me,
Naggin's not going to do it. Maybe you have to
(14:56):
learn this lesson the hard way. Eight hundred eighty ten
and eighty twenty one past five. No Crystal Long Sancho
(15:17):
that she's bad blood paper, Captain Sancho, and welcome back.
This is the weekend Collective untim Beverage, and this is
the parents Squad. My guest is she is an educational
psychologist with her Actually, how do we you've got it? Do?
I say? With a bent on neuroscience? So how do
we put it? Catherine Burkeert, you're Acien.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
I'm actually not an I'm not an education with a psychologist.
I haven't done my registration, but I do have my
masters of educational psychology, just to clarify, but that's okay.
I call myself a neuroscience trainer.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Okay, so you've done a master's in educational psychology and
you're a neuroscientist. Whether okay, there we go, well, we'll we'll,
we'll tighten that one.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
Up something like that. And I'm applying for my doctorate.
So and in six years you'll be able to introduce
me as a doctor. Fantastic sex years.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
I was actually just chatting with my producer that you
look very relaxed and bright eyed and bushy tail today
or something. We're thinking, wonderful, wonder if you wonder what
you've been what's been keeping you busy or not.
Speaker 3 (16:18):
Been knowing the lawns today? So maybe it's beautiful sunny day.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Virtuous glow, that's what it is. There we go. You know,
we're talking, let's take some calls. We're talking about how
to get your kids to support your kids to study
and how much you should push them to actually do
some homework because there will be the procrastinators and the
prevaricadas and all that. Let's go to a call here, Jan.
Speaker 4 (16:40):
Hello, Hikin and Ti Hi, I have a couple of ideas,
and I'd like to ask you about Catherine. When I
was doing my nursing training, I found reading the notes
onto a tape and then playing the tape while it
was sleeping at night helped me to retain a lot
(17:04):
of them information. Quite surprisingly it worked.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Well, Okay, that's one, we'll love that one away. What
was the second question?
Speaker 4 (17:13):
And the other one is with communicating with anybody, children especially,
You can make a mood barometer. It's a bit like
a clock, and you have on one side all the
happy adjectives and on the other side all the sad adjectives,
(17:35):
and you have the big hand in the little hand,
your little hand. The child can move it to how
they're feeling their mood and because often they have trouble
expressing how they're feeling or what they want to communicate,
and it gives a doorway into the communication between adult
(18:00):
and child, and the adult can move the large hand
to indicate how to read in the child.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
What age is the child at this stage when you're doing.
Speaker 4 (18:13):
This, anyone, okay, couple you know, and you can hang
it on the wall. So it seems you can buy
a little clip thing literally pushed through the whole to
join the hands and together.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
That's an interesting one. Does sound like something you could
also move quite passively aggressively on moving the little hand
to angry right now. But actually that first to comment
from jan there on the studying. I have heard about
people the subliminal stuff when you're sleeping. I must say
that sounds like the short path to hell for me.
But is there anything in that you know, her having
dictated her notes and then playing them back at night
(18:54):
as she's falling asleep or asleep.
Speaker 3 (18:58):
I can't talk to the sleeping stuff could be. I
can't say yes or no. But what I definitely know
is that the more the more ways we put it
into our brain, if we have to use different parts
of our cortex to process that information, it actually the
process of learning is myelination. We connect the cells through myelination.
That is increased if we're listening and talking, and you
(19:21):
know that sort of thing. So I always if I
found something quite difficult, I'd read it out loud to
myself when I did, because I knew that now I'm
speaking it and hearing it and reading it all those
parts of my brain at the same time, increased the
myelination and increase the likelihood that the brain will remember that.
So absolutely, the using different modes of sensory does definitely help.
(19:45):
It's excellent information.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
Yeah. Actually, what's the thing with concentration as well, my
memory is that when it comes to really learning and
absorbing information effectively, twenty twenty five minutes at a time
is pretty much the max you can do when you're
in that green zone, I guess, Or is it longer
than that? What do we know?
Speaker 3 (20:08):
Gain genetics, Some people can do it for amazing amounts
of time, and we've got to be careful about things
like that. Theoretically, you can't train for more than a
certain amount of time, but I have for twenty years
and it's still been you know, people taken info. So
it also depends on how you do it. To really
focus is hard. But I can focus. If I get
into focus, I can do it for an hour and
I haven't faulted in my focus. If I'm writing, if
(20:30):
I can get really into that zone, but then other
days I can't. So I think we need to be
really careful with words and numbers like that. But you
can't do it for a long, long period of time
because it takes a massive amount of energy. So it's
actually the energy that's being used to activate those parts
of the brain. You need to go and move and
walk around and you know, have a dance or something.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
Texas says. My seventeen year old son gets great results
at school. He has the Big Bang theory on continuously
while doing his study at home. It drives me nuts
until I realized he was actually learning and doing great.
He did find exams difficult because of the distractions of
one hundred other students being around him. In preparation this
year for exams, he stops the Big Band theory a
(21:14):
couple of weeks before the exams. Very common within his cohort.
Love your shows, Tim, Well, that's very nice. Thank you
for you. That's a comedy. I would find it that
quite a distraction unless he's listened to it so many times.
It's just a familiar sound.
Speaker 3 (21:30):
Yeah, my son. Again, he has the office and stuff
on in the background all the time and he just
doesn't seem to notice it. So again, that's beautiful to
hear that the parent is listening to the young man's
way of learning. What she has noticed and what is
something that we do need to put into context is
that the way that the brain puts information in is
the way it's more likely to take her out. So
(21:52):
it is right than in exams it's often very quiet,
you can't move, and so that is sometimes the way
we need to practice being able to regurgitate this information.
We might take it in a certain way. But then,
like she said, she's that weeks four and some of
the friends have done that is because they need to
learn while they're regurgitating that information to do it with silence,
(22:14):
you know, quiet, because that's what the situation of the
exam is. So there is the research that suggests that
as well.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
That intuitively makes sense because you get people who study
and do well in their and they do terribly in exams.
And I would have a suspicion that from some of those,
if not many of them, it's simply because the environment
of an exam is so foreign that their brain is
massively distracted just by the fact they're not comfortable.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
And stress response is huge in exams, I mean, in
my opinion, exams are first to assessing whether that human
can get themselves into a calm enough state and feel
confident enough and safe enough in that space to access
their green brain. After that, if the informations there can
you know, they can get it out. But actually most
(23:02):
exams are actually testing whether we can get into the
cortical areas of our brain. And that's why I disagree
with them in some ways, because some of our young
people do activate a bit of stress in there and
they're not able to process the stuff that they do
know and get it down. But we have exams, so
we've got to learn how to do them the best way.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
It's interesting that I do. I've been banging on to
my audience. Will know, I've been teaching myself French through
an app. But they have time trial sort of vocabulary matchups,
and when you get into it, I know if I
get tense about trying to finish within time, otherwise I
have to start again, and so this anxiety builds up
(23:43):
and I become less and less good at it. And
I've actually found that if I tell myself that almost
not to engage with it at all, just it's there,
the vocabulary, and if I basically just look at it
and go, well, my brain knows the answer. I just
see what my brain can do without caring. I can
almost go twice as fast because my brain is making
the connections that it knows without that the nervous pulse,
(24:05):
and how much it can cock up your progress. It's
quite amazing how much quicker you can be if you
simply don't care. And when I say don't care, you
know what I mean. When I reduce the anxiety of
the competitive nature, it's just like, well, what sounds to that?
And what's that? Whereas if somebody said this hundred bucks
on this, I might stumble.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
Yep. My daughter's doing law exams this year and one
of her exams is fifty percent of the year's mark,
and if she fails, then she has to sit the
whole year again. That's a lot of pressure on one exam. Now,
luckily she does quite well because she's learned lots of
ways and she's done you know that sort of stuff,
and so hopefully she'll be right. But there's a lot
of young people that for that, just walking in there,
(24:46):
just knowing the pressure. You can't say it doesn't matter
like your friends, you know. And that's why we do
need to let our kids have as many exams because
you've learnt through doing it. We do need to advocate
for our kids being in exams in undergrads and you know,
in their early years at college. Let them be in exams.
People say they're anxious, so they shouldn't have exams in
year nine and ten. Actually give them as many exams
(25:09):
as possible, give them as many things in sports spaces
or whatever that's going to make them tense and anxious,
and talk to them about that so that they can
realize that actually, what you've realized is what they need
to realize, because otherwise that's going to be the hindrance
to the exam success rather than the knowledge.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
That's interesting that my daughter's schools they are having tests
and exams. I think that's you know, they have from
third form which is year year nine nine, and I
thought that was a bit earlier. But they're probably onto
it because they're introducing them to that when it really
doesn't matter, even though exactly and.
Speaker 3 (25:48):
It does matter, but also it doesn't matter because they're
not going to fail and they have to sit the
year again, which could happen if by the time we
get to year twelve. So that's why weis a lot
of parents go, no, we shouldn't be having them, because
they're making our kids anxious and year nine. Well, actually
i'd rather than make get anxious and year nine talk
to them about it, get them to understand that exactly
what you have said, chill out, How can we do this?
(26:10):
What would work next time? Hey, you got better next
time and the exam you did way better than you
did last time, which means next time you'll be even better.
So that's the sort of reason we should be having
practice so we can learn not to hopefully learn to
get less anxious. And by the way, that's a really
really easy thing to say, a difficult thing to do.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Oh, it's well, even from my own experience, it's actually
quite highly meditative to tell yourself you don't care you
know that, to reduce that anxiety, because I know it's
a funny one, isn't it. It's a complete letting go
of all the things that would other world that you
care about. In a way. But back in my day
in law school, I don't know what it was like
(26:52):
when you were doing exams in your first undergraduate days,
but it was just about all on the exam law school.
In fact, I think probably eighty percent sometimes maybe the
whole year all on an exam. Great fun anyway, Hey,
what about with kids who just start doing the work.
(27:15):
They've got exams coming up, and they're just finding excuses,
they're procrastinating, they're avoiding. There's got to be a role
parents can play in that process. But how do you
play it?
Speaker 3 (27:28):
Yeah, and I'm going to give you some advice, but
obviously every kid's different. But really I've talked to a
lot of parents in this space. The biggest thing for
a young people, and statistically especially a young boys, but
it's not only a young boys, is this sense that
they're not good enough, the sense that they they if
(27:50):
they're not academic, if they're not successful there, then they're
not worthy. And our levels of depression and other behaviors
are increasing because they feel like they're not worth it,
not useful that then they don't have money in this space,
and for me, if you're doing this and your young
(28:11):
person really doesn't want to study and really isn't doing well,
if you continuously focus on the fact that they have
to be academically successful in order for you to feel
that they're worthy, you are doing a huge, huge disservice
to your young person, And personally, I would run. I
know that academics are important and I know it's great
for young people who are academic, but if my young
(28:35):
person isn't doing and my son left with no credits
for school, none whatsoever. I think he's got three or
six or something like that, I don't know. And then
he went on to another course that he enjoyed and
excelled and now he's working Scott work, heaps of work,
doing amazing stuff. Why I'm saying that is because what
we need to focus on is making sure our young
people feel wanted, needed, accepted, connected, And if you are
(28:57):
harping on about them studying, then that's not going to happen.
So I do ask you to, ah, think what is
most for my young person?
Speaker 2 (29:06):
Is there a way of harping on such a such
an old school expression, but is there a way of
doing it where you can say, look, you know, I
know you're not confident with this stuff, but just give
it your best go and whatever your best is, that's great.
But wouldn't it be shame not to give it a crack?
Is there a way? I mean, I guess what I'm
as I'm saying that, I'm thinking that those conversations need
(29:28):
to happen six months earlier anyway, don't they.
Speaker 3 (29:32):
And that's the feeling they need to have early. But
also it's about saying, actually, if you do want to
study with your music on, or if you do want
to study in front of big Bang, then if that's
going to get you studying, then do it. But a
lot of parents are saying you need to study my
way when I ask you to, and so they're not
getting the engagement. So let's think how could I change
my space to make it so that young person might engage.
(29:52):
But if you can say that and you can engage them,
then that's fine. I'm thinking that the question there is
about young people who literally are not going to engage.
And I would ask you to think, what's the most
important thing for our young people? And it's to connected
and valued.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
Somebod who's actually texted saying the AI is just around
the corner for everything we're talking about, but it says
I'm currently studying nursing. The best thing I've found for
exams is a whig website called jungle Wizdolia whatever it is.
Import websites. You can import powerpoints, et cetera. It makes
quiz questions with AI and actually I've got another. My
(30:29):
producers just told me that there are websites where you
upload key documents for the course you're studying, and it
uses AI to turn it into a podcast where two
people chat to each other and ask questions about the topic.
Part of me wants to go that sounds like the devil.
Don't fall for it, But it might actually be something
(30:49):
in there. It's just I would imagine that half compiling
all the information to give to AI itself would possibly
be good study in its own right, you know what
I mean. Going through the process of engaging with whatever works.
Speaker 3 (31:03):
You have to try and elate data, make sure it's
right anyway. And how cool is that? I mean, what
if people said radio, Oh my goodness, radio is going
to ruin our world. If we had sat back and
not let radio progress, we wouldn't be here. So we
do have to go with the times. You do have
to know that AI is here. I'm actually personally just
writing a paper and I have found an AI site
that can help me write my paper and it's absolutely
(31:25):
fascinating and it'll give me the core I I still
need to check it. No, it's not an exam, but
it's it's for something in do buy, so I'm hoping
it won't matter. But why I'm saying it is because
our kids have got AI if they can learn to
use it. But if it can make a quiz for you,
or if it can make a podcast that can listen
(31:47):
to and take that information and they still have to
regurgitate it in the exam we're going to learn it,
then yeah, why not.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
Do as well? And that if you compile that information
and in the process of doing it and I've got
to put all this into AI, you've probably done a
fair bit of swat already. And in fact, let's teake
some calls on this.
Speaker 5 (32:08):
And I'm just calling regarding the talk. You guys been heavy.
Speaker 2 (32:14):
It's just.
Speaker 5 (32:16):
Like, you know, I grew out of it and I've
had uh, I've had a rich family in bull but
then I was the youngest of my family and so
the expectations they had on me when I came to
New Zealand about studying and how because my parents were
quite old, the like we were like we're aging family,
(32:37):
so we came here likes for like maybe in their forties.
I was the younger in the family. We were working
and all that. But then when we came to New Zealand.
Everything just seemed a bit different and how the influence
got to me and all that, Like, they just had
a different expectation of me of doing how my father
and everyone was making making money and making the wealth.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
So how did you How did it work for you
with your study?
Speaker 5 (33:03):
Show hasn't worked out for me. I'm eight years old
and I'm still I'm uh, they're finally understood about how
things work out, you know, they've always expected.
Speaker 4 (33:14):
Me to do.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
It didn't help you? Yeah, hey, Raj. Unfortunately your phone
line's a bit sketchy, so I couldn't quite catch what
you were saying. But I think Raj was saying how
it didn't work out from because his parents implosed their
own expectations and what it should be doing. Is that
what you caught from that, Catherine?
Speaker 3 (33:34):
Yeah, sounds sounds quite typical, isn't it that I'm saying
about the Jersey on when you're cold? And I think
that's what we do. I mean tell you, we as parents,
all we want is the best for our kids. And
we thought if only I had studied harder, if I
had studied harder, I could have done that. And so
I'm going to make my kids study harder. Well, actually,
the world's not just about education. The world is about
(33:54):
having a life and experiencing things and finding your own
way through these things. And if we continuously push our
kids through, you know, force to do these things, and
as soon as they're away from ups, they're going to
make their own decisions and find their own way anyway.
So why don't we while we're with them and we
can support that scaffold it, not push it directly, then
(34:16):
why don't we let them find a good way and
negotiate with them and work it out with them and
support them.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
Yeah, I must. I think I've learned something from that,
because I've always just assumed, and especially when you're a parent,
you just have this what are you doing over there?
Why have you get your phone with you? Are you
listening to music? And well, what are you doing? You're
doing homework? Well, how can you focus when you're doing that?
And actually, just for me, just pointing out the fact
that the bleeding obvious now you say it, Catherine, that
everyone's got a different way of working and just got
to find out what's working for them. So long as
(34:43):
they are trying to do what that's what they're trying
to do.
Speaker 3 (34:49):
And I will, but I will say and all honesty,
and I've done my device zombies TEDx Talk, and I'll
talk about devices all the time. They are addictive. It's
like saying to an alcoholic, go and study, and I'll
put a bottle of gin next to you. It Actually,
we do need to be a bit careful with devices.
And that's why I say. If she's said she wants
music on, then I would say, absolutely, you can have
your music and your earphones, but the phone staying out
(35:09):
here in the lounge, well where I am. Do you
know I would? I would support my child by reducing
their ability to access their device if they are a
device addictive kid.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Great advice. Hey Catherine, time flies when you're having fun.
Thanks so much for your time. People want to check
out your work. Where do they go?
Speaker 3 (35:28):
Engage training dot co, do in Z. I'm about to
upload some brand new videos in a week or two
once it's relaunched, so check out on the TEDx Talk
and podcasts with Peel Today are on there as well,
so lots of things to look up.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
Fantastic. Thanks for your time, Catherine, Thank you. We'll catch
again soon. We'll be back in just a moment. We're
wrapping sport with Andy McDonald is with us at quarter
two six.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to News
Talk z' be weekends from three pm, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio
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