October 19, 2024 • 32 mins
Neuroscience Educator Nathan Wallis joins Tim Beveridge on The Weekend Collective to discuss the harms of helicopter parenting and how to raise resilient kids.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
I love was on you and fair itsals.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
Men for someone else, but.
Speaker 4 (00:22):
Not all me.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Love us out again me.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
That's the way it seemed.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Get sup, I'll get all my dream.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
And then I saw her.
Speaker 4 (00:37):
Face not a dress and welcome back to the Weekend Collective.
If you must have any of the previous house. It
was a spirited conversation we had there with Ashley Church
for the one Roof radio show. But that's the way
Ashley and I love it when we get a few
passionate callers about about things. You can check it out.
(00:59):
Go to iHeartRadio, look for the Weekend Collective and we
get the hours up as soon as we can once
each other has concluded. Right now, it's time for the
parents squad of My guest is a neuroscience educator. We're
just how on a second, my we're just waiting to
connect with them, actually, Nathan Wallace, but we are going
to be me a chat about just are we actually
(01:22):
making parenting harder than it needs to be? Because I
think there's this, I think maybe there is a bit
of a subtext as parents these days because we're all working.
There's rarely do people have the luxury of staying at
home of a stay at home parent long term, and
parents both work, and I do wonder whether part of
(01:44):
that is that people maybe over compensator are pretty full
on when it comes to parenting, you know, whether we're
just in our kids' faces, and when it comes to
helicopter parenting as well. But are there ways that we
are making things too complicated as parents want your cause
(02:05):
on that O eight one hundred eighty ten eighty. The
other side of that, of course, is that I was
trying to remember when I was. When I was a student,
we had extra curricular stuff, But I look at kids
these days and god, they're doing heaps of things. Anyway,
joining me to discuss it down on a second, just
clarifying something technically, Yeah, there we go. Nathan Wallace, Hello,
(02:29):
how are you not too bad? Sorry? I didn't realize
you're on the line there. Just had a bit of
issue trying to connect through what have you been keeping
yourself busy with lately?
Speaker 3 (02:39):
I've been on holiday with my adult daughter. That was
a new experience. Oh it was wonderful.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
Oh God, the way you said that was a new experience.
I wasn't just.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
What seven been adults for that long, and I haven't
really gone on a holiday with them and their partner before. Ah. Right,
so that was a new experience.
Speaker 4 (02:56):
Oh good stuff, So you'd be well rested.
Speaker 3 (02:59):
Hey do you think I've had a week touring out
in the South Island as well after that?
Speaker 4 (03:03):
Oh? Okay, so you've really what on holiday?
Speaker 3 (03:06):
No? No, no, that's right. You know, talks all through
the last week and stuff.
Speaker 4 (03:11):
Hey do you think that is modern parenting? Do you
think that parenting stars have changed quite a lot in
the last of ten twenty thirty years with working parents,
that we're making parenting harder than it needs to be.
Speaker 3 (03:24):
I think it certainly has changed a lot in the
last thirty years, But I don't know if i'd agree
with the making it harder than it needs to be.
I don't think most people are. I think, you know,
it doesn't wardly changing world.
Speaker 4 (03:35):
How do you think parenting has changed in the last
you know, decade two or three? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (03:43):
Yeah, I think it's rapidly changing. You know, we're living
in a world of rapid change. So you know, just
my youngest is what just turn twenty five, But I
didn't really have to deal with the social media thing
too much. It was just cell phones and stuff. But
now that's a huge issue. I think it is it's
changing rapidly, parents are them to respond rapidly. Just the
rate of change in the world is happening fast. These
children got exposed to things like you know, which is
(04:06):
two things that really arouse your brain stent and could
cause you know, stress leads the negative outcomes as isolation
and unpredictability, two of the things that we experienced during COVID.
Now we might have handled it as adults, but the
teenage brains particularly, it's susceptible of that. So children, I think,
I mean, there's just so many things. They were all
in childcare centers by the time they were one, We stayed,
(04:26):
had a home parent tour. Eighteen twenty percent of them
live in the same community as their family, their village,
their grandparents and stuff. Eighty percent of us did in
Generation X. Like it is a rapid amount of change.
Speaker 4 (04:38):
Yeah, that makes it sound like it's so I'm probably
not so much tough for the parents, but certainly tougher
for the kids. I mean, I think my upbringing being well,
it's pretty straightforward. I think, went to school and I
played rugby. Yeah, did you live in the same community
as your grandparents for your uncle's and a no, no, no,
And I didn't really might No, I didn't different sort
(04:59):
of set up for us. It was more just because
my dad would. My parents moved to Rua and that's
where we were raised. But it was a pretty straightforward
existence I think.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
Yeah, yeah, I was as in, you know, christ Church
and my family were all in Milton still, so I
had that, you know, was my kids werening around their
uncles and aunties and grandparents immediately.
Speaker 4 (05:16):
How much difference does it actually make having those sorts
of intruse family connections, you.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
Know, from each run by themselves, don't necessarily make or
break the situation. So can we talk about risk and
resiliency factors. It's really a balance between those. So certainly
living in the same community as your grandparents and stuff.
As a resiliency factor, you've got a relationship as a
host with someone that loves you, sort of like a
parent does outside the home, you know, the different perspective.
(05:44):
So I just think how much my grandparents are rich
my life. I would hate to have not had my
grandparents yeah, well, I think.
Speaker 4 (05:53):
Probably because my dad had me quite late, so my
grandparents were reasonably old. They were always sort of where
some grandparents I mean, you know, they can be pretty
youthful these days.
Speaker 3 (06:01):
That's right, yep, yeah, But you know there's also thing.
It's like, you know, did your parents separate? How long
did you have an at home parent for? You know,
bilingual brains are much more resilient to know everything basically,
So you have to weigh up all of those things.
You know, what's there any trauma in your life? How
many risk factors did you have? Are your parents or
(06:22):
have they ever been to jail? How either your parents
have a better foster care? Do you move a lot?
And you know there's lots of risk factors, but resiliency
factors are you know, like I say, having grandparents around.
The longer you have an at home parent that you know,
the more resilient you are. Country school can give you
resilience because you have the same teacher for three or
four years.
Speaker 4 (06:41):
It can give you resilience.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
Did you say, yeah, well, but assuming that the teacher
is of reasonable quality, if the teacher's a teacher, than
having them three years if someone you don't like and
are scared of would obviously not be good. But the
most teachers you aren't. So even an average teacher and
three years forms a high quality relationship with you. And
that's the number one factor that really determines how well
kids do in school, not the parents' qualifications, or the ratio,
(07:04):
or the teacher a starf or anything else we measure. The
number one factor is the quality of the relationship with
the teacher. So, you know, human beings, relationship creatures. So
if you love your teacher and want to please them,
you'll do so much better in education than if you're
detached and they don't know you, and it's just an abstract,
logical thing you're trying to do with your brother.
Speaker 4 (07:22):
We've covered on a few topics. I was just thinking
maybe the way I'd ask that first question is the
wrong way around them, because I had the idea because
I can think of parents, you know, the question, are
we making parenting harder than it needs to be? And
I think maybe that's maybe an unfair way of asking
that question. It's just because we can think of parents
who always seem to be I don't know what on
(07:44):
edge trying to try to manage.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
The section are worrying more than we need to?
Speaker 4 (07:49):
Well, I was thinking maybe the question is is that
it's not are we making parenting harder than it needs
to be, but as parenting actually just harder because there's
those things you've outlined, like we've had COVID and the
changes there social media. Sorry, you're right. Can you hear me? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (08:04):
Yeah I can. Sorry, can you hear me?
Speaker 4 (08:06):
Yep? So I guess maybe we should frame the question differently,
is parenting Is parenting actually just harder these days?
Speaker 3 (08:14):
Yeah? I think it absolutely is just the fact that
you don't have an parent anymore, so you've got two
parents at work, and you don't have the grandparents. You know,
my grandmother wasn't allowed to work, so there was you know,
because there was just that generation where a granddad would
at letter. We think that is sexist and outdated now,
but it meant, you know that my parents had support
and I had a full time grandmother, and so yeah,
it is much harder for parents nowadays. Just both of
(08:36):
them working makes it quite difficult.
Speaker 4 (08:38):
How much of a I mean, sometimes I try and
keep away from the social media question because it seems
pot to be popping up so often when it comes
to peers. But that's a massive influence on kids, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
Yeah, but it's not a good influence on their mental health.
You know, we're starting to see more and more the
evidence stacking up with just about how much damage it's doing,
and so you know, you're starting to see countries respond
to that by quitting on legislation and banning it and stuff,
because it is clear that it is really doing a
lot of damage to our kids' mental health. I guess
that would mean at least the ban of kids having
cell phones at school's not a bad using them at
(09:11):
school and all. That's not a bad thing then, is it.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
I mean that's probably when they're still going to use them,
so they're probably still going to be exposed to those things,
but at least their brain is getting a break from
it if they're not allowed at school. So a good
thing we.
Speaker 4 (09:23):
Want to hear from you. Do you think that parenting
is harder than it used to be? Or you know?
I mean, my question initially, as I started with, was
are we making parenting harder than it needs to be?
Which probably is a slightly mischievous question because it's inviting
some sort of judgment, and I don't really if I
was to be honest, mean it that way. But are
there ways that parents can simplify things for themselves? I guess, Nathan,
(09:46):
even though it's hard the social media and the cell
phone thing always and I tell you, my kids are
so great and negotiating you and I think that they're
pretty well behaved, but even then they they make it
hard to enforce those rules around phones and social media.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
Yeah, that's just the nature kids, really, isn't They're supposed
to test your boundaries and nothing releases more endorphins into
their brain than the screen. So of course that's the
thing that they're going to want mainly, and they're going
to fight back against restrictions. But I think, you know,
you know, I always looked at the research for answers,
not just identifying what the problem is, in the research
that tells us how we can protect our kids from there,
(10:25):
and there is quite clearly because kids that come from
a home where there's two hours a day device free time,
so no phones or cell phone or computer between four
and six or something that really largely takes outside the
at risk group for anxiety and depression statistically, So when
schools are saying, no cell phone. If they have two
hours consistent time, they're going to be on computers and stuff, though,
(10:46):
So this needs to be two hours without media to
actually give your brain a rest from screens for a solid,
predictable two hours every day. With my kids, we used
to do it four to six because that's when I
was cooking tea and wanted them to help, and that's
when you do a lot of the interaction, I suppose,
and it's interaction that builds brains, not screens. So we
do four to six. I negotiated it with the kids.
You know, they tried to go for three am to
five am, but it's like, no, you have to be
(11:07):
awake when you don't have your device sex every day.
And they worked well, and they did fight back for
a start, but when I was consistent with it, and
I also put my own cell phone down and didn't
go on the computer at that time and modeled it,
I soon got used to it as a routine.
Speaker 4 (11:24):
Do you think that's possibly There'd be a lot of
parents listening here be going well, that's that's fine. That
might have been ten or fifteen years ago or something,
but now you know, kids homework, they come home with
homework and most of them it's all it's all on
a screen.
Speaker 3 (11:37):
Well, they're not homework from the time they get home
until they go to bed, so there's still two hours
and they'd have a device for a time. They also
have to you know, they've usually got sports to play,
or they've got you know, other activities they can do,
and so they schedule them and that two hours.
Speaker 4 (11:52):
You know, where is the evidence that you find useful
to roll out to parents, because you know, parents will
power sometimes can be worn down by kids. It's like,
well it's kids are well, kids of bloody convincing out.
They their persuasive, their pain and all that, and then
every now and again mum or dad will just go, okay,
look have your phoned for a bit, but what is
the latest as far as you know and what we
(12:15):
know on the dangers of that.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
The danger is a lot. You know, I tend to
look at the absence of like of parents. You know,
when we look at Farnes, the access have got to
social media and the content and that is warping their
sense of reality. Because during adolescence it's very easy to
warp that sense of reality. It's a very complex things
from a brain point of view, because really, what you
and I are seeing in front of us is actually
a construction in our frontal cortex, you know, So it's
(12:42):
easy for them to construct a false reality. That means,
you know, in a broad example, the kids growing up
watching pornography and thinking that that's how females actually respond.
Then if they don't have a conversation with usually a
parent or someone that just has to simply point out
and develop that critical lens that says, you realize that
that's not made. Women don't make that, and the women
(13:04):
are made by men for men, with the women saying
things and men are going to say and women don't,
and that's not real intimacy. And as long as someone
has that conversation with them, that seems to protect them
from it. So you could argue it's not the social media,
it's the lack of.
Speaker 4 (13:17):
The lack of lack of any other input.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
Yeah, a lack of developing that critical lends. Maybe because
parents don't want to talk about it because it's an
uncomfortable subject, but those are the sort of risks. They
also compare themselves and believe other people's lives, so they
think they're supposed to be having a life like Kim
Kardashian and really believe that someone like is similar to
that as happy all the time and always fulfilled and
they get and that comparative thing is what has a
(13:41):
been contributed to their anxiety and depression?
Speaker 4 (13:43):
Yeah, because not many be people post on Instagram. I'm
sort of having an average sort of day. It's all.
It's all that perfection, isn't It either that or it's
intense grief. But there's no sort of there's no normal,
is there?
Speaker 3 (13:55):
No, there isn't. There's a very little you know, just blah,
this is how it is. Because people don't hear that.
That's not very exciting.
Speaker 4 (14:03):
Okay, look, we want to take your cause on this.
Eight hundred eighty ten eighty. Do you think I mean
we've we've probably drifted away from my question a little bit,
but I think in terms of trying to make parenting
a little simpler, do you think there's a way of
making things simpler in terms of just controlling your kids
access to social media and all that sort of stuff,
because it feels like the easy way out just to
(14:23):
let them do whatever. But from my own point of view,
it's definitely anything, but so we'll take your calls on
this eight hundred eighty ten and eighty text nine to
nine two. This is the Parents Squad, News Talks. He'd
be eight hundred eight ten and eighty back in a
mow and welcome back to the Parenting the Parents Squad.
This is News Talks eight hundred eight ten and eighty.
Simple question. Actually I've changed it since this we started,
(14:45):
I said. My initial question that I thought we'd explore
is are we making parenting harder than it used to be?
But actually the simpler question is is it harder than
it used to be? And if so, why and what
can we do to make things a bit simpler. Let's
go to Nathan Wallace's my guest by the way, and Karen, Hello.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Oh goodness thing, great topic. I was fortunate enough to
see Nathan Wallace and my babies were very young and
took on board a lot of what he said. So
thank you for your input.
Speaker 4 (15:14):
What made you go to see what? What did you say?
What was Nathan talking about back when you saw him?
Speaker 2 (15:20):
Back then it was the first three years and brain
development and attached parenting and being present with your child.
And one of the questions I actually are well he
was talking about back.
Speaker 4 (15:34):
Then was nothing with us now anyway, I've just got
chick there, aren't you? Nathan. Absolutely, it was so quiet.
I was like, where's he comb?
Speaker 3 (15:43):
Yeah, I job, thank you, but it obviously didn't come up.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Yeah, just how how it takes for repetition to create
neural pathways? Back then and at the time, my son
was high tod so to speak, and he would drop
his spone and I'd pick it up, and he would
drop it and I'd pick it up. And I remember saying,
how many times as this neural pathway going to take
(16:11):
before it's created? And you set up to ninety seven
but not necessarily all at the same time to get
that action. So this releads into your question today, how
hard is it to keep them off screen? Our kids
went full fire into it when they got to high
school because that was the norm, and they couldn't get
(16:36):
away with it, not away with it, gets away from
it because if you didn't partake in it, you were
seen as an outsider and sorry that someone's being So
they went really high on their dopamine hurts. And then
now the backing off and I went to the teacher
(16:59):
parent interview at one of the christ At schools and
I won't say which one it is, and I went
to the art teacher. I said, how are you finding
these kids during art given that the brains are used
to going at a higher speed and it's really hard
for them to switch off to engage in something quite slow.
And he says, you know what, he said, Did they
(17:22):
get to that art class and they don't want to
leave because they've had too much screen time?
Speaker 4 (17:28):
That sort of doesn't surprise me as much as you
think it might. Actually, what do you you, Nathan?
Speaker 3 (17:36):
Yeah, No, I think the brain's also seeking variety and
they kind of know that they don't have the option
in art class and that's a bit easier for teachers
and parents in that way that they can't argue their
way out of that class. They are going to be
doing art for an hour, so there's a level of
acceptance which makes them engage a bit easier.
Speaker 4 (17:52):
To How did you deal with the whole device thing
for your kids anyway, Karen once they got to high school.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
Well, I'll give you a really big reaction that it
cares because I was really firm on it and tried
to be very like those seventeen and fifteen at the moment,
and my son was on screen, and I gave them
like three or four warnings, I'm going to turn the
endosne off. You need to get off, and he didn't,
(18:22):
so I just turned it off. That The anger that
came back at May was frightening. I've never done that before.
I never had to put my foot down like that,
but him losing their social connection in a peer group
and having no control over there was really quite quite
(18:45):
scary actually.
Speaker 4 (18:46):
Actually, Karen, I think what you've described there is the
reason that so many parents will have a crack at
getting their kids off the devices, but they often capitulate
because they are They just don't want that, I don't know,
different creature to suddenly appear. Is there something in that, Nathan, Yeah,
absolutely there is.
Speaker 3 (19:05):
And the difference between punishment and consequence. There's no amount
of punishment's good, but no one enjoys punishment. Punishment is
just a low quality relationship, but consequence they absolutely need.
So the difference between punishment and consequence is predictability. If
I said to the child, you know, this is what's
going to happen, and in another time when they're nice
and calm that this is the process, and I'm going
to tell you get off the internet. You need to
(19:26):
get off the internet. You know, you've got five minutes
to get off the internet. I will give you two warnings.
You know, on the third warning, if you're not off
the internet, I'm just going to simply switch off the internet.
And that's what's going.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
I approached it and it just went the next level.
Speaker 4 (19:41):
And to be honest, did that stop you being enforcing
the same rules another time because of its reaction? Karen?
Speaker 2 (19:54):
It did just because I didn't have any backups. I
was a single mom. Okay, so my approach was minimized.
I guess just because of you know, you've got testosterone,
you've got brain development, you've got social peer pressure and
(20:15):
all the rest of it. And I just.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
I can understand that it makes it more complicated.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Yeah, I said that that didn't go well for both
of us and that you know, it can't happen again,
And that was with it.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
You went back to him and said at another time
when he was calm, that's not okay. And again, so
you know that means an answer to terms question. You
didn't just really let them away with it and say well, okay,
then you can be on the internet. You did go back.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
I've always tried to have engaged, not to contracts in
the house. You know that there's agreement on time frames
and how we're going to go through things.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
But yeah, if you don't want a confrontation, I think
you did well to back off at that time. You
don't need confrontations without teenagers, especially when they are angry
like that. So waiting and just you know, just engaging
and waiting until another time when he is and that
might be more than twenty four hours later, but as
long as you do readdress it, you bring it up
(21:17):
and say, hey, that's not okay. There needs to be
a consequence that agreement. What are we going to do
next time? Because I felt quite threatened but that situation.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
I don't think it's okay for me to feel threatened
my son, and I don't think that's something you want
to do to your mother. So what can we do
next time to make sure that you control that reaction?
But because it is going to happen, there's my job
as a parent.
Speaker 4 (21:42):
Actually, I've got a text Karen and Nathan just based
on what you were saying that you said you might
have given him three warnings. Somebody said, Tim and Nathan,
what do you think is three or four warnings a mistake?
How many warnings should you give your kids when you
want them to act on something? Because three three of
I'm not having a I'm not.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
Having I guess it's it's almost eluting, it isn't it?
When you do well?
Speaker 1 (22:04):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (22:04):
I mean, I'm curious. I mean, what's the effective number
of warnings? There's three sounds. If I'm going to give
three warnings, I'm thinking I'm not backing myself up there.
I think i'd need to sell ye. What do you reckon, Nathan?
How many?
Speaker 3 (22:18):
He worried? Again? Is predictability? You agree on how many
warnings it's going to be because and that's age appropriate
and after child's only seven, and they might need four
warnings if the child's come But I think three warnings
is not as Also, you're helping them. They are a teenager.
It is difficult to regulate their behavior. It is difficult
to put it down, so it's difficult to take time.
(22:38):
So for if three is too many for you, then
tells them there's going to be two warnings. But the
key term it's called make it predictable, and you don't
want to set them up for failure. You don't want
to have to do the turn the power off, you know,
so you want to make it as easy as possible.
If you think two is better or three is better,
number doesn't matter as long as I agree.
Speaker 4 (22:57):
It's a funny one because there is thanks for your call,
cam by the way, I appreciate it. It's an interesting one
because if I think if my kids, if I say, hey, look,
can you get off the phone? I want you off
in five minutes, And if I come back and they're
still on, I'll say okay, So I don't know if
that's just a request. Then I follow up with a
warning and then the consequence, So is that three or two?
(23:18):
I'm just trying to work it out, because you know what,
I think there's one of those things that kids those
at the times, we kids can say, oh hang on,
you didn't give me enough warning and all those sorts
of things. So you really need to be certain of
your ground, don't you.
Speaker 3 (23:29):
Yeah, well, it's just about for me, like if I
said I need you off the phone in five minutes,
I'd expect them to be after the phone in five minutes.
When I got back and they were still on the phone,
I would just say, you need to hang up now, please.
I've give you a five minute warning, I need to
phone now, and I'd stand there and wait for it,
and you know, make them finish the conversation because you
want to follow through on what you said, not then
drag it out longer because they encourage them to negotiat
next time, I was going to drag it out longer.
(23:50):
I'd say I need that phone in five minutes. When
I come back in five minutes, if you're not off
the phone, you'll have another two minutes. Finish that conversation,
and then I'm going to be You know, it has
to be predictable, so stick with what you such.
Speaker 4 (24:00):
Wouldn't it be so lovely if they'd just say, yep,
right done, dad. It's the constantly negotiations. I think it
is well.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
I think that caust negotiation is because we deviate from
that predectability. We sometimes get two warnings and three warnings
and four warnings, and so the child doesn't know. Just
be consistent.
Speaker 4 (24:16):
And the other thing is if there is what if
they do have a meltdown on something I think for me,
I would think it's best not to buy into that.
I literally just say, listen, you need to take yourself
off to your room. We're not going to talk about
it or just remove them. I don't try and have
any I generally try not to have a conflict with them.
Speaker 3 (24:34):
No, you don't want to do you?
Speaker 4 (24:35):
Well, that's that's another That's another thing you get sucked
into as a parent, though, because if they really annoy you.
But I just sort of think, right, no, no, tell
you what. I'm grumpy. You go in there. I'll stay
here and I'll come and talk to you in five minutes. Yeah, yes,
all good, All good. Somebody I've got a few texts.
Somebody's just I'll read that some of these bits correspondents,
(24:59):
it says that we are having a crack at us
just saying we have we're playing as if we have
all the answers. Parenting is recogniz in what your offsprings,
talents are not what you want them to be. I'm
not sure if that's quite the same conversation we've been having.
Speaker 3 (25:12):
Maybe I can still recollect what yes you means that
it's like kids aren't just it's not an exact science,
and you're not just telling them who they are. They've
got their own unique temperament and their own unique set
of talents and stuff, and it is about negotiating that
stuff and having a relationship with them. And then it
does just raisially right. No one does have all the answers.
No one has perfect parenting, and that's kind of what
(25:33):
makes it hard, you know, it is for I mean,
I've got a lot of skills and training, and I
found it really hard, and I wasn't the perfect parent,
and you know, so much was that temperament I found
some of my kids. You know, I think two of
my kids had I found relatively easy to parent in
comparison to one of the other ones. It had quite
a different temperament and seem to not respond to all
that stuff that I talk about about, like you know,
(25:55):
predictability and as long as they are involved in making
the boundary and to set the calm time, those other
one kind of accept that they might argue a little bit.
One of them just wanted to seem to want to
challenge every single time and argument. They just seem to
want to fight. And so it is very much not
just what you say as a parent, but who you're
interacting with.
Speaker 4 (26:15):
Did you sort of given that that's the space you
work in. I mean, because it's a bit like a
bustman's holiday. You know, you'd have your as a neuroscience
educator be chatting to parents about ideas and things to
support good parenting, all that sort of thing. What was
it like when you went home and would you sort
of go ah your internal verse, would you just tell
(26:35):
you know, a little Nathan inside to shut up because
you were.
Speaker 3 (26:38):
Just kind of all of those things. I mean, the
reason I ended out in a job like this is
because I really loved kids, and I really loved parenting,
and I trained as a teacher and stuff, so I
started on the positive side of you know, really valuing them,
but then also a normal parent who has an emotional
reaction and you know, and we'll want to get angry.
(26:59):
But most of the time, because of the training and stuff,
I could mitigate that, which illusions I was, you know,
I lose a plot and swear at the kids. Yeah,
sometimes it was easier to tell the stuff objectively, so
I knew what to do ninety percent of the time.
But I'm still ten percent of the time didn't follow
our own advice and you know, might let my emotions
(27:21):
take over. I think the difference is, I mean I
never hit them or anything. No, but the difference is
that my emotions did take over, and I swore at them.
I was all right to go and apologize afterwards and
say it wasn't really okay that I spoke by that
I lost the plot.
Speaker 4 (27:34):
Well that that that seems intuitively fine in a way
because it also demonstrates the example of this is what
I expect you to do when you cross the line.
You apologize and you make Yeah. Yeah, I just the
whole hell, you know. On the on the side of
you know, parents worrying about doing the well, about just
about doing the best job that they can. The helicopter
parenting side, where does that, where does that kick in?
(27:57):
And when's it sort of a problem?
Speaker 3 (27:59):
Yeah, I mean everyone should be a helicopter parent with
a newborn baby. Yeah, so, you know, like that's an brainer.
I think it's about one of the part of it's
about there letting them take risk. We know that dad's
often you know, involve in a rougher play and do
more risk taking, and how beneficial that is to children's overall,
well beound. I think what we talk about in neuroscience.
I see you've got Catherine Burketts some articles from Catherine
(28:22):
on your page.
Speaker 4 (28:24):
You do a bit of work with Catherine, don't you.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
YEA, yeah, I love Catherine. She's great. You know, we're
very much on the same page. And yeah, we've word
together lots over the years. But yeah, she often talks
about tolerable and toxic stress.
Speaker 4 (28:35):
Yeah, and I.
Speaker 3 (28:36):
Remember listening to her once, and it's a neuroscience term.
The tolerable stress that you sort of stress that you
get support with and you get over. It makes you resilient,
whereas toxic stress is what traumatizes you at least to
all those negative outcomes. So an example that adults us
is like turning the shower you've had a shower, and
then turning it cold before you get out. Yeah, that's stressful,
but it's tolerable stress. And what you generally find after
(28:59):
that is you get a big burst of endorphins and
feel really good after it is that's your brain's response
to tolerateble stress. So I mean that's a physical example,
but tolerable stress is good for people. It makes kids resilient.
You don't want your kids don't have to be stress free.
You know, that's not really the ideal. It's that there
is life does involve stress, but you just want to
make sure those kids stress is tolerable. And if you're
(29:21):
a helicopter parent, you might be trying to make them
stress free and it might be not letting them take it.
Rests are going to be helpful for their development. But yeah,
it's hard to say when that is and what.
Speaker 4 (29:32):
Yeah, I think it's I think going from those years,
probably from when they're about eleven and twelve through to
on their middle teenagers as sort of the time when
you know you've really got that gradual journey and letting go,
and you know, because beyond that, obviously there's that legal
age of when you're not supposed to leave them alone,
which I'm sure parents sort of break that roll a
(29:53):
little bit when they're twelve and thirteen. I don't know,
but it is a difficult sort of thing for parents
when you're so used to especially if you've got you know,
two or three kids, and you've got one who you've
still in the habit of really helicoptering, and yet the
other ones are starting to be like wanting a little
bit more freedom.
Speaker 3 (30:12):
Yeah, but it tends to be a temperament type. You know,
a certain parent that's going to be the helicopter parent
tends to be a helicopter to all of them and
are slightly over involved in all of the kids at
their different stages.
Speaker 4 (30:21):
The helicopter parents are where are where they're doing it.
The ones that are sort of well they should be
because the mind you their kids are all resisting them
all the time, but they'd be getting quite a bit
of pushback like mam, and why won't you let me go?
And stat such and such as place or why won't
you let me do that?
Speaker 3 (30:35):
And I suppose you know, are the kids being neglected
but neglect for parents? Are they aware of it? You know,
because you get to the ends of the spectrum, you
get the too much attention and the too little attention,
And it's really the too little attention that fills up
our prisons have got to say, not the too much Yeah. Yeah,
but yeah, I think it probably comes from a good place,
(30:57):
but it's getting there educated and realizing that they're not
actually helping their child's development by doing that, and they're
kind of giving their child the message you are incompetent
because I have to watch every single thing that you do.
And if you give them that message, they'll believe it
and they'll be in. So you want the competent and
capable and you need to get them room to do
that and take risks.
Speaker 4 (31:16):
And yeah, ye hey, Nathan, if people want to check
out the work you do, where's the because actually you
I think you've mentioned Katherine Burkett. You do a bit
of work from with her from time to time. But
if people want to check out what the work you do,
what's the best way.
Speaker 3 (31:29):
To If we're trying to keep stuff up to date
on the web page, Nathan Dollis Nathan Wallace dot com
on there, I do stuff through NIB so they produced
quite a few good parenting resources that are all available
on the NIB website, you know, as well as you
know on my website. Usually just going to YouTube and
put in my name is actually what a lot of
(31:49):
people do, just randomless select stuff from there.
Speaker 4 (31:52):
Yeah, okay, cool, Hey, look, thanks so much for your
time this afternoon. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
I appreciate it too, thanks.
Speaker 4 (31:59):
To no good on you. We'll chat again that Nathan
Wallace We will be back shortly. By the way, if
you've missed any of the previous hours and the conversations
that we've been having, you can go to our website
or go to iHeartRadio look for the Weekend Collective. Where
As I say, Wereview podcast. We'll be back to Wrap
Sport in just a moment. Nathan Limb joins us. This
(32:22):
is News Talk sed B. It is coming up to
eighteen minutes to six.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to News
Talks it'd be weekends from three pm, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
I love was on you and fair itsals.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
Men for someone else, but.
Speaker 4 (00:22):
Not all me.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Love us out again me.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
That's the way it seemed.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Get sup, I'll get all my dream.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
And then I saw her.
Speaker 4 (00:37):
Face not a dress and welcome back to the Weekend Collective.
If you must have any of the previous house. It
was a spirited conversation we had there with Ashley Church
for the one Roof radio show. But that's the way
Ashley and I love it when we get a few
passionate callers about about things. You can check it out.
(00:59):
Go to iHeartRadio, look for the Weekend Collective and we
get the hours up as soon as we can once
each other has concluded. Right now, it's time for the
parents squad of My guest is a neuroscience educator. We're
just how on a second, my we're just waiting to
connect with them, actually, Nathan Wallace, but we are going
to be me a chat about just are we actually
(01:22):
making parenting harder than it needs to be? Because I
think there's this, I think maybe there is a bit
of a subtext as parents these days because we're all working.
There's rarely do people have the luxury of staying at
home of a stay at home parent long term, and
parents both work, and I do wonder whether part of
(01:44):
that is that people maybe over compensator are pretty full
on when it comes to parenting, you know, whether we're
just in our kids' faces, and when it comes to
helicopter parenting as well. But are there ways that we
are making things too complicated as parents want your cause
(02:05):
on that O eight one hundred eighty ten eighty. The
other side of that, of course, is that I was
trying to remember when I was. When I was a student,
we had extra curricular stuff, But I look at kids
these days and god, they're doing heaps of things. Anyway,
joining me to discuss it down on a second, just
clarifying something technically, Yeah, there we go. Nathan Wallace, Hello,
(02:29):
how are you not too bad? Sorry? I didn't realize
you're on the line there. Just had a bit of
issue trying to connect through what have you been keeping
yourself busy with lately?
Speaker 3 (02:39):
I've been on holiday with my adult daughter. That was
a new experience. Oh it was wonderful.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
Oh God, the way you said that was a new experience.
I wasn't just.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
What seven been adults for that long, and I haven't
really gone on a holiday with them and their partner before. Ah. Right,
so that was a new experience.
Speaker 4 (02:56):
Oh good stuff, So you'd be well rested.
Speaker 3 (02:59):
Hey do you think I've had a week touring out
in the South Island as well after that?
Speaker 4 (03:03):
Oh? Okay, so you've really what on holiday?
Speaker 3 (03:06):
No? No, no, that's right. You know, talks all through
the last week and stuff.
Speaker 4 (03:11):
Hey do you think that is modern parenting? Do you
think that parenting stars have changed quite a lot in
the last of ten twenty thirty years with working parents,
that we're making parenting harder than it needs to be.
Speaker 3 (03:24):
I think it certainly has changed a lot in the
last thirty years, But I don't know if i'd agree
with the making it harder than it needs to be.
I don't think most people are. I think, you know,
it doesn't wardly changing world.
Speaker 4 (03:35):
How do you think parenting has changed in the last
you know, decade two or three? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (03:43):
Yeah, I think it's rapidly changing. You know, we're living
in a world of rapid change. So you know, just
my youngest is what just turn twenty five, But I
didn't really have to deal with the social media thing
too much. It was just cell phones and stuff. But
now that's a huge issue. I think it is it's
changing rapidly, parents are them to respond rapidly. Just the
rate of change in the world is happening fast. These
children got exposed to things like you know, which is
(04:06):
two things that really arouse your brain stent and could
cause you know, stress leads the negative outcomes as isolation
and unpredictability, two of the things that we experienced during COVID.
Now we might have handled it as adults, but the
teenage brains particularly, it's susceptible of that. So children, I think,
I mean, there's just so many things. They were all
in childcare centers by the time they were one, We stayed,
(04:26):
had a home parent tour. Eighteen twenty percent of them
live in the same community as their family, their village,
their grandparents and stuff. Eighty percent of us did in
Generation X. Like it is a rapid amount of change.
Speaker 4 (04:38):
Yeah, that makes it sound like it's so I'm probably
not so much tough for the parents, but certainly tougher
for the kids. I mean, I think my upbringing being well,
it's pretty straightforward. I think, went to school and I
played rugby. Yeah, did you live in the same community
as your grandparents for your uncle's and a no, no, no,
And I didn't really might No, I didn't different sort
(04:59):
of set up for us. It was more just because
my dad would. My parents moved to Rua and that's
where we were raised. But it was a pretty straightforward
existence I think.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
Yeah, yeah, I was as in, you know, christ Church
and my family were all in Milton still, so I
had that, you know, was my kids werening around their
uncles and aunties and grandparents immediately.
Speaker 4 (05:16):
How much difference does it actually make having those sorts
of intruse family connections, you.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
Know, from each run by themselves, don't necessarily make or
break the situation. So can we talk about risk and
resiliency factors. It's really a balance between those. So certainly
living in the same community as your grandparents and stuff.
As a resiliency factor, you've got a relationship as a
host with someone that loves you, sort of like a
parent does outside the home, you know, the different perspective.
(05:44):
So I just think how much my grandparents are rich
my life. I would hate to have not had my
grandparents yeah, well, I think.
Speaker 4 (05:53):
Probably because my dad had me quite late, so my
grandparents were reasonably old. They were always sort of where
some grandparents I mean, you know, they can be pretty
youthful these days.
Speaker 3 (06:01):
That's right, yep, yeah, But you know there's also thing.
It's like, you know, did your parents separate? How long
did you have an at home parent for? You know,
bilingual brains are much more resilient to know everything basically,
So you have to weigh up all of those things.
You know, what's there any trauma in your life? How
many risk factors did you have? Are your parents or
(06:22):
have they ever been to jail? How either your parents
have a better foster care? Do you move a lot?
And you know there's lots of risk factors, but resiliency
factors are you know, like I say, having grandparents around.
The longer you have an at home parent that you know,
the more resilient you are. Country school can give you
resilience because you have the same teacher for three or
four years.
Speaker 4 (06:41):
It can give you resilience.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
Did you say, yeah, well, but assuming that the teacher
is of reasonable quality, if the teacher's a teacher, than
having them three years if someone you don't like and
are scared of would obviously not be good. But the
most teachers you aren't. So even an average teacher and
three years forms a high quality relationship with you. And
that's the number one factor that really determines how well
kids do in school, not the parents' qualifications, or the ratio,
(07:04):
or the teacher a starf or anything else we measure. The
number one factor is the quality of the relationship with
the teacher. So, you know, human beings, relationship creatures. So
if you love your teacher and want to please them,
you'll do so much better in education than if you're
detached and they don't know you, and it's just an abstract,
logical thing you're trying to do with your brother.
Speaker 4 (07:22):
We've covered on a few topics. I was just thinking
maybe the way I'd ask that first question is the
wrong way around them, because I had the idea because
I can think of parents, you know, the question, are
we making parenting harder than it needs to be? And
I think maybe that's maybe an unfair way of asking
that question. It's just because we can think of parents
who always seem to be I don't know what on
(07:44):
edge trying to try to manage.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
The section are worrying more than we need to?
Speaker 4 (07:49):
Well, I was thinking maybe the question is is that
it's not are we making parenting harder than it needs
to be, but as parenting actually just harder because there's
those things you've outlined, like we've had COVID and the
changes there social media. Sorry, you're right. Can you hear me? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (08:04):
Yeah I can. Sorry, can you hear me?
Speaker 4 (08:06):
Yep? So I guess maybe we should frame the question differently,
is parenting Is parenting actually just harder these days?
Speaker 3 (08:14):
Yeah? I think it absolutely is just the fact that
you don't have an parent anymore, so you've got two
parents at work, and you don't have the grandparents. You know,
my grandmother wasn't allowed to work, so there was you know,
because there was just that generation where a granddad would
at letter. We think that is sexist and outdated now,
but it meant, you know that my parents had support
and I had a full time grandmother, and so yeah,
it is much harder for parents nowadays. Just both of
(08:36):
them working makes it quite difficult.
Speaker 4 (08:38):
How much of a I mean, sometimes I try and
keep away from the social media question because it seems
pot to be popping up so often when it comes
to peers. But that's a massive influence on kids, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
Yeah, but it's not a good influence on their mental health.
You know, we're starting to see more and more the
evidence stacking up with just about how much damage it's doing,
and so you know, you're starting to see countries respond
to that by quitting on legislation and banning it and stuff,
because it is clear that it is really doing a
lot of damage to our kids' mental health. I guess
that would mean at least the ban of kids having
cell phones at school's not a bad using them at
(09:11):
school and all. That's not a bad thing then, is it.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
I mean that's probably when they're still going to use them,
so they're probably still going to be exposed to those things,
but at least their brain is getting a break from
it if they're not allowed at school. So a good
thing we.
Speaker 4 (09:23):
Want to hear from you. Do you think that parenting
is harder than it used to be? Or you know?
I mean, my question initially, as I started with, was
are we making parenting harder than it needs to be?
Which probably is a slightly mischievous question because it's inviting
some sort of judgment, and I don't really if I
was to be honest, mean it that way. But are
there ways that parents can simplify things for themselves? I guess, Nathan,
(09:46):
even though it's hard the social media and the cell
phone thing always and I tell you, my kids are
so great and negotiating you and I think that they're
pretty well behaved, but even then they they make it
hard to enforce those rules around phones and social media.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
Yeah, that's just the nature kids, really, isn't They're supposed
to test your boundaries and nothing releases more endorphins into
their brain than the screen. So of course that's the
thing that they're going to want mainly, and they're going
to fight back against restrictions. But I think, you know,
you know, I always looked at the research for answers,
not just identifying what the problem is, in the research
that tells us how we can protect our kids from there,
(10:25):
and there is quite clearly because kids that come from
a home where there's two hours a day device free time,
so no phones or cell phone or computer between four
and six or something that really largely takes outside the
at risk group for anxiety and depression statistically, So when
schools are saying, no cell phone. If they have two
hours consistent time, they're going to be on computers and stuff, though,
(10:46):
So this needs to be two hours without media to
actually give your brain a rest from screens for a solid,
predictable two hours every day. With my kids, we used
to do it four to six because that's when I
was cooking tea and wanted them to help, and that's
when you do a lot of the interaction, I suppose,
and it's interaction that builds brains, not screens. So we
do four to six. I negotiated it with the kids.
You know, they tried to go for three am to
five am, but it's like, no, you have to be
(11:07):
awake when you don't have your device sex every day.
And they worked well, and they did fight back for
a start, but when I was consistent with it, and
I also put my own cell phone down and didn't
go on the computer at that time and modeled it,
I soon got used to it as a routine.
Speaker 4 (11:24):
Do you think that's possibly There'd be a lot of
parents listening here be going well, that's that's fine. That
might have been ten or fifteen years ago or something,
but now you know, kids homework, they come home with
homework and most of them it's all it's all on
a screen.
Speaker 3 (11:37):
Well, they're not homework from the time they get home
until they go to bed, so there's still two hours
and they'd have a device for a time. They also
have to you know, they've usually got sports to play,
or they've got you know, other activities they can do,
and so they schedule them and that two hours.
Speaker 4 (11:52):
You know, where is the evidence that you find useful
to roll out to parents, because you know, parents will
power sometimes can be worn down by kids. It's like,
well it's kids are well, kids of bloody convincing out.
They their persuasive, their pain and all that, and then
every now and again mum or dad will just go, okay,
look have your phoned for a bit, but what is
the latest as far as you know and what we
(12:15):
know on the dangers of that.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
The danger is a lot. You know, I tend to
look at the absence of like of parents. You know,
when we look at Farnes, the access have got to
social media and the content and that is warping their
sense of reality. Because during adolescence it's very easy to
warp that sense of reality. It's a very complex things
from a brain point of view, because really, what you
and I are seeing in front of us is actually
a construction in our frontal cortex, you know, So it's
(12:42):
easy for them to construct a false reality. That means,
you know, in a broad example, the kids growing up
watching pornography and thinking that that's how females actually respond.
Then if they don't have a conversation with usually a
parent or someone that just has to simply point out
and develop that critical lens that says, you realize that
that's not made. Women don't make that, and the women
(13:04):
are made by men for men, with the women saying
things and men are going to say and women don't,
and that's not real intimacy. And as long as someone
has that conversation with them, that seems to protect them
from it. So you could argue it's not the social media,
it's the lack of.
Speaker 4 (13:17):
The lack of lack of any other input.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
Yeah, a lack of developing that critical lends. Maybe because
parents don't want to talk about it because it's an
uncomfortable subject, but those are the sort of risks. They
also compare themselves and believe other people's lives, so they
think they're supposed to be having a life like Kim
Kardashian and really believe that someone like is similar to
that as happy all the time and always fulfilled and
they get and that comparative thing is what has a
(13:41):
been contributed to their anxiety and depression?
Speaker 4 (13:43):
Yeah, because not many be people post on Instagram. I'm
sort of having an average sort of day. It's all.
It's all that perfection, isn't It either that or it's
intense grief. But there's no sort of there's no normal,
is there?
Speaker 3 (13:55):
No, there isn't. There's a very little you know, just blah,
this is how it is. Because people don't hear that.
That's not very exciting.
Speaker 4 (14:03):
Okay, look, we want to take your cause on this.
Eight hundred eighty ten eighty. Do you think I mean
we've we've probably drifted away from my question a little bit,
but I think in terms of trying to make parenting
a little simpler, do you think there's a way of
making things simpler in terms of just controlling your kids
access to social media and all that sort of stuff,
because it feels like the easy way out just to
(14:23):
let them do whatever. But from my own point of view,
it's definitely anything, but so we'll take your calls on
this eight hundred eighty ten and eighty text nine to
nine two. This is the Parents Squad, News Talks. He'd
be eight hundred eight ten and eighty back in a
mow and welcome back to the Parenting the Parents Squad.
This is News Talks eight hundred eight ten and eighty.
Simple question. Actually I've changed it since this we started,
(14:45):
I said. My initial question that I thought we'd explore
is are we making parenting harder than it used to be?
But actually the simpler question is is it harder than
it used to be? And if so, why and what
can we do to make things a bit simpler. Let's
go to Nathan Wallace's my guest by the way, and Karen, Hello.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Oh goodness thing, great topic. I was fortunate enough to
see Nathan Wallace and my babies were very young and
took on board a lot of what he said. So
thank you for your input.
Speaker 4 (15:14):
What made you go to see what? What did you say?
What was Nathan talking about back when you saw him?
Speaker 2 (15:20):
Back then it was the first three years and brain
development and attached parenting and being present with your child.
And one of the questions I actually are well he
was talking about back.
Speaker 4 (15:34):
Then was nothing with us now anyway, I've just got
chick there, aren't you? Nathan. Absolutely, it was so quiet.
I was like, where's he comb?
Speaker 3 (15:43):
Yeah, I job, thank you, but it obviously didn't come up.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Yeah, just how how it takes for repetition to create
neural pathways? Back then and at the time, my son
was high tod so to speak, and he would drop
his spone and I'd pick it up, and he would
drop it and I'd pick it up. And I remember saying,
how many times as this neural pathway going to take
(16:11):
before it's created? And you set up to ninety seven
but not necessarily all at the same time to get
that action. So this releads into your question today, how
hard is it to keep them off screen? Our kids
went full fire into it when they got to high
school because that was the norm, and they couldn't get
(16:36):
away with it, not away with it, gets away from
it because if you didn't partake in it, you were
seen as an outsider and sorry that someone's being So
they went really high on their dopamine hurts. And then
now the backing off and I went to the teacher
(16:59):
parent interview at one of the christ At schools and
I won't say which one it is, and I went
to the art teacher. I said, how are you finding
these kids during art given that the brains are used
to going at a higher speed and it's really hard
for them to switch off to engage in something quite slow.
And he says, you know what, he said, Did they
(17:22):
get to that art class and they don't want to
leave because they've had too much screen time?
Speaker 4 (17:28):
That sort of doesn't surprise me as much as you
think it might. Actually, what do you you, Nathan?
Speaker 3 (17:36):
Yeah, No, I think the brain's also seeking variety and
they kind of know that they don't have the option
in art class and that's a bit easier for teachers
and parents in that way that they can't argue their
way out of that class. They are going to be
doing art for an hour, so there's a level of
acceptance which makes them engage a bit easier.
Speaker 4 (17:52):
To How did you deal with the whole device thing
for your kids anyway, Karen once they got to high school.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
Well, I'll give you a really big reaction that it
cares because I was really firm on it and tried
to be very like those seventeen and fifteen at the moment,
and my son was on screen, and I gave them
like three or four warnings, I'm going to turn the
endosne off. You need to get off, and he didn't,
(18:22):
so I just turned it off. That The anger that
came back at May was frightening. I've never done that before.
I never had to put my foot down like that,
but him losing their social connection in a peer group
and having no control over there was really quite quite
(18:45):
scary actually.
Speaker 4 (18:46):
Actually, Karen, I think what you've described there is the
reason that so many parents will have a crack at
getting their kids off the devices, but they often capitulate
because they are They just don't want that, I don't know,
different creature to suddenly appear. Is there something in that, Nathan, Yeah,
absolutely there is.
Speaker 3 (19:05):
And the difference between punishment and consequence. There's no amount
of punishment's good, but no one enjoys punishment. Punishment is
just a low quality relationship, but consequence they absolutely need.
So the difference between punishment and consequence is predictability. If
I said to the child, you know, this is what's
going to happen, and in another time when they're nice
and calm that this is the process, and I'm going
to tell you get off the internet. You need to
(19:26):
get off the internet. You know, you've got five minutes
to get off the internet. I will give you two warnings.
You know, on the third warning, if you're not off
the internet, I'm just going to simply switch off the internet.
And that's what's going.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
I approached it and it just went the next level.
Speaker 4 (19:41):
And to be honest, did that stop you being enforcing
the same rules another time because of its reaction? Karen?
Speaker 2 (19:54):
It did just because I didn't have any backups. I
was a single mom. Okay, so my approach was minimized.
I guess just because of you know, you've got testosterone,
you've got brain development, you've got social peer pressure and
(20:15):
all the rest of it. And I just.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
I can understand that it makes it more complicated.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Yeah, I said that that didn't go well for both
of us and that you know, it can't happen again,
And that was with it.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
You went back to him and said at another time
when he was calm, that's not okay. And again, so
you know that means an answer to terms question. You
didn't just really let them away with it and say well, okay,
then you can be on the internet. You did go back.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
I've always tried to have engaged, not to contracts in
the house. You know that there's agreement on time frames
and how we're going to go through things.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
But yeah, if you don't want a confrontation, I think
you did well to back off at that time. You
don't need confrontations without teenagers, especially when they are angry
like that. So waiting and just you know, just engaging
and waiting until another time when he is and that
might be more than twenty four hours later, but as
long as you do readdress it, you bring it up
(21:17):
and say, hey, that's not okay. There needs to be
a consequence that agreement. What are we going to do
next time? Because I felt quite threatened but that situation.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
I don't think it's okay for me to feel threatened
my son, and I don't think that's something you want
to do to your mother. So what can we do
next time to make sure that you control that reaction?
But because it is going to happen, there's my job
as a parent.
Speaker 4 (21:42):
Actually, I've got a text Karen and Nathan just based
on what you were saying that you said you might
have given him three warnings. Somebody said, Tim and Nathan,
what do you think is three or four warnings a mistake?
How many warnings should you give your kids when you
want them to act on something? Because three three of
I'm not having a I'm not.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
Having I guess it's it's almost eluting, it isn't it?
When you do well?
Speaker 1 (22:04):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (22:04):
I mean, I'm curious. I mean, what's the effective number
of warnings? There's three sounds. If I'm going to give
three warnings, I'm thinking I'm not backing myself up there.
I think i'd need to sell ye. What do you reckon, Nathan?
How many?
Speaker 3 (22:18):
He worried? Again? Is predictability? You agree on how many
warnings it's going to be because and that's age appropriate
and after child's only seven, and they might need four
warnings if the child's come But I think three warnings
is not as Also, you're helping them. They are a teenager.
It is difficult to regulate their behavior. It is difficult
to put it down, so it's difficult to take time.
(22:38):
So for if three is too many for you, then
tells them there's going to be two warnings. But the
key term it's called make it predictable, and you don't
want to set them up for failure. You don't want
to have to do the turn the power off, you know,
so you want to make it as easy as possible.
If you think two is better or three is better,
number doesn't matter as long as I agree.
Speaker 4 (22:57):
It's a funny one because there is thanks for your call,
cam by the way, I appreciate it. It's an interesting one
because if I think if my kids, if I say, hey, look,
can you get off the phone? I want you off
in five minutes, And if I come back and they're
still on, I'll say okay, So I don't know if
that's just a request. Then I follow up with a
warning and then the consequence, So is that three or two?
(23:18):
I'm just trying to work it out, because you know what,
I think there's one of those things that kids those
at the times, we kids can say, oh hang on,
you didn't give me enough warning and all those sorts
of things. So you really need to be certain of
your ground, don't you.
Speaker 3 (23:29):
Yeah, well, it's just about for me, like if I
said I need you off the phone in five minutes,
I'd expect them to be after the phone in five minutes.
When I got back and they were still on the phone,
I would just say, you need to hang up now, please.
I've give you a five minute warning, I need to
phone now, and I'd stand there and wait for it,
and you know, make them finish the conversation because you
want to follow through on what you said, not then
drag it out longer because they encourage them to negotiat
next time, I was going to drag it out longer.
(23:50):
I'd say I need that phone in five minutes. When
I come back in five minutes, if you're not off
the phone, you'll have another two minutes. Finish that conversation,
and then I'm going to be You know, it has
to be predictable, so stick with what you such.
Speaker 4 (24:00):
Wouldn't it be so lovely if they'd just say, yep,
right done, dad. It's the constantly negotiations. I think it
is well.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
I think that caust negotiation is because we deviate from
that predectability. We sometimes get two warnings and three warnings
and four warnings, and so the child doesn't know. Just
be consistent.
Speaker 4 (24:16):
And the other thing is if there is what if
they do have a meltdown on something I think for me,
I would think it's best not to buy into that.
I literally just say, listen, you need to take yourself
off to your room. We're not going to talk about
it or just remove them. I don't try and have
any I generally try not to have a conflict with them.
Speaker 3 (24:34):
No, you don't want to do you?
Speaker 4 (24:35):
Well, that's that's another That's another thing you get sucked
into as a parent, though, because if they really annoy you.
But I just sort of think, right, no, no, tell
you what. I'm grumpy. You go in there. I'll stay
here and I'll come and talk to you in five minutes. Yeah, yes,
all good, All good. Somebody I've got a few texts.
Somebody's just I'll read that some of these bits correspondents,
(24:59):
it says that we are having a crack at us
just saying we have we're playing as if we have
all the answers. Parenting is recogniz in what your offsprings,
talents are not what you want them to be. I'm
not sure if that's quite the same conversation we've been having.
Speaker 3 (25:12):
Maybe I can still recollect what yes you means that
it's like kids aren't just it's not an exact science,
and you're not just telling them who they are. They've
got their own unique temperament and their own unique set
of talents and stuff, and it is about negotiating that
stuff and having a relationship with them. And then it
does just raisially right. No one does have all the answers.
No one has perfect parenting, and that's kind of what
(25:33):
makes it hard, you know, it is for I mean,
I've got a lot of skills and training, and I
found it really hard, and I wasn't the perfect parent,
and you know, so much was that temperament I found
some of my kids. You know, I think two of
my kids had I found relatively easy to parent in
comparison to one of the other ones. It had quite
a different temperament and seem to not respond to all
that stuff that I talk about about, like you know,
(25:55):
predictability and as long as they are involved in making
the boundary and to set the calm time, those other
one kind of accept that they might argue a little bit.
One of them just wanted to seem to want to
challenge every single time and argument. They just seem to
want to fight. And so it is very much not
just what you say as a parent, but who you're
interacting with.
Speaker 4 (26:15):
Did you sort of given that that's the space you
work in. I mean, because it's a bit like a
bustman's holiday. You know, you'd have your as a neuroscience
educator be chatting to parents about ideas and things to
support good parenting, all that sort of thing. What was
it like when you went home and would you sort
of go ah your internal verse, would you just tell
(26:35):
you know, a little Nathan inside to shut up because
you were.
Speaker 3 (26:38):
Just kind of all of those things. I mean, the
reason I ended out in a job like this is
because I really loved kids, and I really loved parenting,
and I trained as a teacher and stuff, so I
started on the positive side of you know, really valuing them,
but then also a normal parent who has an emotional
reaction and you know, and we'll want to get angry.
(26:59):
But most of the time, because of the training and stuff,
I could mitigate that, which illusions I was, you know,
I lose a plot and swear at the kids. Yeah,
sometimes it was easier to tell the stuff objectively, so
I knew what to do ninety percent of the time.
But I'm still ten percent of the time didn't follow
our own advice and you know, might let my emotions
(27:21):
take over. I think the difference is, I mean I
never hit them or anything. No, but the difference is
that my emotions did take over, and I swore at them.
I was all right to go and apologize afterwards and
say it wasn't really okay that I spoke by that
I lost the plot.
Speaker 4 (27:34):
Well that that that seems intuitively fine in a way
because it also demonstrates the example of this is what
I expect you to do when you cross the line.
You apologize and you make Yeah. Yeah, I just the
whole hell, you know. On the on the side of
you know, parents worrying about doing the well, about just
about doing the best job that they can. The helicopter
parenting side, where does that, where does that kick in?
(27:57):
And when's it sort of a problem?
Speaker 3 (27:59):
Yeah, I mean everyone should be a helicopter parent with
a newborn baby. Yeah, so, you know, like that's an brainer.
I think it's about one of the part of it's
about there letting them take risk. We know that dad's
often you know, involve in a rougher play and do
more risk taking, and how beneficial that is to children's overall,
well beound. I think what we talk about in neuroscience.
I see you've got Catherine Burketts some articles from Catherine
(28:22):
on your page.
Speaker 4 (28:24):
You do a bit of work with Catherine, don't you.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
YEA, yeah, I love Catherine. She's great. You know, we're
very much on the same page. And yeah, we've word
together lots over the years. But yeah, she often talks
about tolerable and toxic stress.
Speaker 4 (28:35):
Yeah, and I.
Speaker 3 (28:36):
Remember listening to her once, and it's a neuroscience term.
The tolerable stress that you sort of stress that you
get support with and you get over. It makes you resilient,
whereas toxic stress is what traumatizes you at least to
all those negative outcomes. So an example that adults us
is like turning the shower you've had a shower, and
then turning it cold before you get out. Yeah, that's stressful,
but it's tolerable stress. And what you generally find after
(28:59):
that is you get a big burst of endorphins and
feel really good after it is that's your brain's response
to tolerateble stress. So I mean that's a physical example,
but tolerable stress is good for people. It makes kids resilient.
You don't want your kids don't have to be stress free.
You know, that's not really the ideal. It's that there
is life does involve stress, but you just want to
make sure those kids stress is tolerable. And if you're
(29:21):
a helicopter parent, you might be trying to make them
stress free and it might be not letting them take it.
Rests are going to be helpful for their development. But yeah,
it's hard to say when that is and what.
Speaker 4 (29:32):
Yeah, I think it's I think going from those years,
probably from when they're about eleven and twelve through to
on their middle teenagers as sort of the time when
you know you've really got that gradual journey and letting go,
and you know, because beyond that, obviously there's that legal
age of when you're not supposed to leave them alone,
which I'm sure parents sort of break that roll a
(29:53):
little bit when they're twelve and thirteen. I don't know,
but it is a difficult sort of thing for parents
when you're so used to especially if you've got you know,
two or three kids, and you've got one who you've
still in the habit of really helicoptering, and yet the
other ones are starting to be like wanting a little
bit more freedom.
Speaker 3 (30:12):
Yeah, but it tends to be a temperament type. You know,
a certain parent that's going to be the helicopter parent
tends to be a helicopter to all of them and
are slightly over involved in all of the kids at
their different stages.
Speaker 4 (30:21):
The helicopter parents are where are where they're doing it.
The ones that are sort of well they should be
because the mind you their kids are all resisting them
all the time, but they'd be getting quite a bit
of pushback like mam, and why won't you let me go?
And stat such and such as place or why won't
you let me do that?
Speaker 3 (30:35):
And I suppose you know, are the kids being neglected
but neglect for parents? Are they aware of it? You know,
because you get to the ends of the spectrum, you
get the too much attention and the too little attention,
And it's really the too little attention that fills up
our prisons have got to say, not the too much Yeah. Yeah,
but yeah, I think it probably comes from a good place,
(30:57):
but it's getting there educated and realizing that they're not
actually helping their child's development by doing that, and they're
kind of giving their child the message you are incompetent
because I have to watch every single thing that you do.
And if you give them that message, they'll believe it
and they'll be in. So you want the competent and
capable and you need to get them room to do
that and take risks.
Speaker 4 (31:16):
And yeah, ye hey, Nathan, if people want to check
out the work you do, where's the because actually you
I think you've mentioned Katherine Burkett. You do a bit
of work from with her from time to time. But
if people want to check out what the work you do,
what's the best way.
Speaker 3 (31:29):
To If we're trying to keep stuff up to date
on the web page, Nathan Dollis Nathan Wallace dot com
on there, I do stuff through NIB so they produced
quite a few good parenting resources that are all available
on the NIB website, you know, as well as you
know on my website. Usually just going to YouTube and
put in my name is actually what a lot of
(31:49):
people do, just randomless select stuff from there.
Speaker 4 (31:52):
Yeah, okay, cool, Hey, look, thanks so much for your
time this afternoon. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
I appreciate it too, thanks.
Speaker 4 (31:59):
To no good on you. We'll chat again that Nathan
Wallace We will be back shortly. By the way, if
you've missed any of the previous hours and the conversations
that we've been having, you can go to our website
or go to iHeartRadio look for the Weekend Collective. Where
As I say, Wereview podcast. We'll be back to Wrap
Sport in just a moment. Nathan Limb joins us. This
(32:22):
is News Talk sed B. It is coming up to
eighteen minutes to six.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to News
Talks it'd be weekends from three pm, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio
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