November 8, 2025 • 10 mins
A youth advocate says Oranga Tamariki's evaluation of the boot camp pilot tells us nothing we didn't know.
It's revealed six of the nine youth participants re-offended after being released - but less seriously than a cohort not included.
Kickback co-founder Aaron Hendry says these young people have experienced significant harm, including neglect, poverty and homelessness.
"It's about addressing the housing insecurity, it's about addressing the poverty, it's about actually supporting whanau as a community, to heal - and about support ensuring they have the right support and care around them to be safe."
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudkin
from News talks'b SO.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
On Friday, we got the final verdict on the government's
controversial boot camp pilot. A report revealed a mix of
successes and failures. I don't know about you, but it
pretty much is what I think we all expected. Reoffending
is highlighted as a particular issue, with the majority of
the nine participants reoffending within two months of being released
into the community. To discuss the report, the future of
(00:34):
these boot camps and how we help these young people,
Youth development worker Aaron Hendry joins me.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Now, good morning, Aaron, more Dinna.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Thanks so much for your time. We did ask the
Children's Minister to join us this morning but was unable to.
Karen sure has said that this report shows the pilot
was successful even with the level of reoffending. Is that
how you see it?
Speaker 4 (00:56):
Yeah, not really looking at the evaluation and what's kind
of come of it. There's really nothing really new here.
Before this project began, you know, there was a lot
of feedback to the government that look, what we would
expect is you know, in the residential phase, you'd see
you know, a little bit more success in terms of
that structure and the therapeutic support you get.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
But the real challenge, as always is in the transition.
Speaker 4 (01:21):
It's coming into our communities and providing those children, those
young people with the currer and support they need. Is
they come back into the community and that seems to
be where it's fallen down again.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
So how do we make that work? What would make
an impact in helping these young people stay on the
right side of the law when they come back into
the community.
Speaker 4 (01:39):
Yeah, look, look, I mean one of the things we
need to continue to remember is that the children we're
talking about are kids that have experienced some of the
most significant harm in our society neglect, poverty, homelessness, and
are coming from communities that have generations of inequality and
the same you know, state harm, abuse, all of these things.
This is why they're in contact with the law in
(02:01):
the first place, why they've come into the justice system,
and what we need to be doing is actually responding
to their needs. So it's about addressing the housing and security,
it's about a dressing the poverty, it's about actually supporting
FINO as a community to heal and about support ensuring
that they have the right support and care around them
to to be safe. You know, recently I spoke to
(02:22):
a young person who who'd becoming in out of these
justice residences, and you know, I asked them, you know,
why is it that you keep coming back in? He said, Look,
whenever I go back into the community, you know, my
mom's struggling, our house is overcrowded. I go and steal
to try to help mum feed my brothers and sisters.
Like that is the reality that some of these kids
are dealing with. And if we don't respond to their needs,
we don't actually respond to what's going on for them,
(02:44):
We'll continue going through this loop.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
Okay, So are you saying then that actually the book
came can work as an opportunity to reset. But the
problem is that until we deal with the second phase
and what's happening at home and the other issues, they're
just not going to be able to make the most
of that res set. Like, is there some value to
(03:09):
this opportunity that you know that these boot camps might offer.
Speaker 4 (03:14):
I think first we need to take a little bit
of step back in terms of how this came about. Right, Yeah,
you know that this military camp came about out of
you know, I guess the political you know, drive around,
you know, tough on crime policies. You know, there's no
evidence to back up the military style was helpful. Actually,
all the evidence says that it could be harmful, right
what we seem to be And it's kind of contrasted
(03:35):
in the evaluation often as comparing it to you know,
the old youth justice residences. You know, we know that
these services have been underfunded for decades. You know, they
don't get the right supports, interventions and therapeutic supports, and
actually there's a lot of harm happening in our you've
justice residences, as is often highlighted.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
And so this pilot, what we.
Speaker 4 (03:53):
Saw was huge amounts of resource going into providing you know,
in terms of reference support, but a lot of this
stuff has been recommended in our wider child prison system
for a very long time. What we know in terms
of what actually works is much smaller localized community interventions
where if there is a need for some form of
residential support, it's happening in local communities connected to EWI,
connected to FINO, and there's a very short residential phase
(04:15):
where we're actually focusing on dealing with what's going on
for that child, and connecting them straight back into the communities. Ideally,
these sorts of large, residential, highly expensive programs are shut
down and we move to more community based models that
would be more successful. I think the real challenge here
is because of the way this project came about, we
didn't start with the evidence or with the community, so
(04:37):
that the opportunity really is to take it back to
the evidence, take it back to those who actually have
the expertise and knowledge around how to design a system
like this and start from scratch and build it back up.
There's definitely these elements of FINO connection wrap around support
intensive therapeutic environments. Those are really important, but you don't
need a military style camp to deliver that. And actually
there's some really successful programs in the community that are
(04:59):
delivering that without needing young people to be in residential
phases to do so.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this question, Aaron,
But there has been a bit of criticism about the
pace at which this program was rolled out and how
quickly it was done, and that the government's kind of
rushed into this. Would you like to have seen a
more measured approach?
Speaker 4 (05:17):
Yeah, yeah, look, I think concerns from the outset was
that it was very politically driven and it was pushed forward,
you know, and Tamidiki, I think there's some good people there.
We worked really hard to deliver the best they could
with the parameters they were given. But a program like
this should never be rushed through. It should always be
taking it back to community, ensuring that actually we keep
(05:39):
the child at the center and we design a really
effective intervention and take the time that is needed to
ensure that the program is successful. And I think what
we see from the beginning it was rushed and it
didn't necessarily have the resources behind it to do the
best job. You know, when we look at that kind
of transition phase. Throughout the report, it continues to say, look,
the transition was rushed.
Speaker 3 (05:58):
Well, we always knew that that.
Speaker 4 (05:59):
Was going to be the challenge and that was going
to be the time that needed the most work, and
so you needed to have the time to be able
to do that, not push them forward on what's seemed
to be very politically motivated timeframes.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
So Aaron, the minister has said that the government hasn't
decided on the structure of any future program. So if
you would prefer them to move towards more small, localized programs.
Do we have the resources in place within the communities
to make that happen well, So.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
This is one of the challenges. This is one of
the challenges. Right.
Speaker 4 (06:27):
So, in the midst of them rolling out this program,
they were also gutting, you know, community services and public
services which were actually undermining the kind of the social
infrastructure we need to have those transition phases be successful.
And so now we've had huge amounts of cuts happening
within our community space. You know, in the very year
that this kind of was coming out, the cut twenty
(06:48):
million that would have gone into youth housing services, the
sort of services you need to ensure that a project
like this could even be marginally successful. And so right now, no,
the resources aren't there, but that's a government decision, right,
So the government needs to decide to ensure that we
are investing in our communities so that we can care
for our kids and provide them with the support need.
And ironically, if you actually do the early intervention stuff well,
(07:11):
and you ensure that you have the right services in
your communities, and our communities are empowered to care for
our kids that's also your transition infrastructure at the same time.
And so look, if we invest really well on early intervention,
then you're going to have good support in that transition.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
Because that's going to be really important. Because you talked
about other very big broad issues that we have. You know,
you might have too many people living in your home,
poverty and not being able to you know, buy food,
mum struggling and all that kind of thing. They're really
big issues to have to deal with as well. So
is it if we try and get that early intervention
with a young person we can still have an impact
(07:47):
even if they're in that environment.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
Yeah, I mean it is. There is no sort of
bullet to this.
Speaker 4 (07:53):
I think this is something of a society we really
need to acknowledge, you know, of say the kids are
Canaris right, that they are really shooting a warning sign
of what is happening in our communities. They're a product
of the inequality and the poverty that we allow to
persist in our society. And so but we do need
to address all of those things. The environmental fact is
that that bring young people into conflict with the law.
The poverty, the homelessness, the support for farno that needs
(08:15):
to be focused on. But we can do a lot
more in terms of supporting FARNO in that early interventions phase.
And it often is grassroots community organizations that know their communities,
that know their fino, that are getting involved in the
lives of those who are struggling and are actually providing
responses to what's going on in their needs. And so,
you know, the opportunity for the government is actually to
come down to work with EU, to work with community
(08:36):
and actually start designing localized solutions and localized responses for
our Italian our tamidiki. One thing we need to continue
to remember is that youth crime has been going down
for decades, right, we've been on a decline. There's been
a small group of children which you know, we get
quite excited about in terms of the public conversation. There's
a small group of children where there are some challenges
(08:57):
and what are those challenges. It is rampant inequality, it's poverty,
it's you know, under the lack of support for children
with disabilities, lack of support for children with serious mens
to health concerns and that can support for their faro.
And so we actually know who these children are and
so we have an opportunity to actually go to the
community and resource the interventions we need in the local
community spaces where this is happening. So look, there is
(09:20):
heaps of hope, but it is about the government actually
deciding to step back. And again, I guess said, I
think a concern we had the way this military style
academy came about it the policy of this was driven
from government down rather than effective policy policy that is
actually centering our children. Should always start from the flax
roots and come up. You know, we should be engaging
(09:41):
first with e We should be engaging first with Farno
and community and experts and being informed by the evidence
and then building our policy from that surrounds our Tamaitiki
from their upwards. And that didn't happen in terms of
this project.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
Aaron, really appreciate your thoughts this morning. That was Youth
Development Worker Aaron Hendry.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
For more from the Sunday session with Francesca Rudken, listen
lived to us talks. There'd be from nine am Sunday,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudkin
from News talks'b SO.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
On Friday, we got the final verdict on the government's
controversial boot camp pilot. A report revealed a mix of
successes and failures. I don't know about you, but it
pretty much is what I think we all expected. Reoffending
is highlighted as a particular issue, with the majority of
the nine participants reoffending within two months of being released
into the community. To discuss the report, the future of
(00:34):
these boot camps and how we help these young people,
Youth development worker Aaron Hendry joins me.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Now, good morning, Aaron, more Dinna.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Thanks so much for your time. We did ask the
Children's Minister to join us this morning but was unable to.
Karen sure has said that this report shows the pilot
was successful even with the level of reoffending. Is that
how you see it?
Speaker 4 (00:56):
Yeah, not really looking at the evaluation and what's kind
of come of it. There's really nothing really new here.
Before this project began, you know, there was a lot
of feedback to the government that look, what we would
expect is you know, in the residential phase, you'd see
you know, a little bit more success in terms of
that structure and the therapeutic support you get.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
But the real challenge, as always is in the transition.
Speaker 4 (01:21):
It's coming into our communities and providing those children, those
young people with the currer and support they need. Is
they come back into the community and that seems to
be where it's fallen down again.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
So how do we make that work? What would make
an impact in helping these young people stay on the
right side of the law when they come back into
the community.
Speaker 4 (01:39):
Yeah, look, look, I mean one of the things we
need to continue to remember is that the children we're
talking about are kids that have experienced some of the
most significant harm in our society neglect, poverty, homelessness, and
are coming from communities that have generations of inequality and
the same you know, state harm, abuse, all of these things.
This is why they're in contact with the law in
(02:01):
the first place, why they've come into the justice system,
and what we need to be doing is actually responding
to their needs. So it's about addressing the housing and security,
it's about a dressing the poverty, it's about actually supporting
FINO as a community to heal and about support ensuring
that they have the right support and care around them
to to be safe. You know, recently I spoke to
(02:22):
a young person who who'd becoming in out of these
justice residences, and you know, I asked them, you know,
why is it that you keep coming back in? He said, Look,
whenever I go back into the community, you know, my
mom's struggling, our house is overcrowded. I go and steal
to try to help mum feed my brothers and sisters.
Like that is the reality that some of these kids
are dealing with. And if we don't respond to their needs,
we don't actually respond to what's going on for them,
(02:44):
We'll continue going through this loop.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
Okay, So are you saying then that actually the book
came can work as an opportunity to reset. But the
problem is that until we deal with the second phase
and what's happening at home and the other issues, they're
just not going to be able to make the most
of that res set. Like, is there some value to
(03:09):
this opportunity that you know that these boot camps might offer.
Speaker 4 (03:14):
I think first we need to take a little bit
of step back in terms of how this came about. Right, Yeah,
you know that this military camp came about out of
you know, I guess the political you know, drive around,
you know, tough on crime policies. You know, there's no
evidence to back up the military style was helpful. Actually,
all the evidence says that it could be harmful, right
what we seem to be And it's kind of contrasted
(03:35):
in the evaluation often as comparing it to you know,
the old youth justice residences. You know, we know that
these services have been underfunded for decades. You know, they
don't get the right supports, interventions and therapeutic supports, and
actually there's a lot of harm happening in our you've
justice residences, as is often highlighted.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
And so this pilot, what we.
Speaker 4 (03:53):
Saw was huge amounts of resource going into providing you know,
in terms of reference support, but a lot of this
stuff has been recommended in our wider child prison system
for a very long time. What we know in terms
of what actually works is much smaller localized community interventions
where if there is a need for some form of
residential support, it's happening in local communities connected to EWI,
connected to FINO, and there's a very short residential phase
(04:15):
where we're actually focusing on dealing with what's going on
for that child, and connecting them straight back into the communities. Ideally,
these sorts of large, residential, highly expensive programs are shut
down and we move to more community based models that
would be more successful. I think the real challenge here
is because of the way this project came about, we
didn't start with the evidence or with the community, so
(04:37):
that the opportunity really is to take it back to
the evidence, take it back to those who actually have
the expertise and knowledge around how to design a system
like this and start from scratch and build it back up.
There's definitely these elements of FINO connection wrap around support
intensive therapeutic environments. Those are really important, but you don't
need a military style camp to deliver that. And actually
there's some really successful programs in the community that are
(04:59):
delivering that without needing young people to be in residential
phases to do so.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this question, Aaron,
But there has been a bit of criticism about the
pace at which this program was rolled out and how
quickly it was done, and that the government's kind of
rushed into this. Would you like to have seen a
more measured approach?
Speaker 4 (05:17):
Yeah, yeah, look, I think concerns from the outset was
that it was very politically driven and it was pushed forward,
you know, and Tamidiki, I think there's some good people there.
We worked really hard to deliver the best they could
with the parameters they were given. But a program like
this should never be rushed through. It should always be
taking it back to community, ensuring that actually we keep
(05:39):
the child at the center and we design a really
effective intervention and take the time that is needed to
ensure that the program is successful. And I think what
we see from the beginning it was rushed and it
didn't necessarily have the resources behind it to do the
best job. You know, when we look at that kind
of transition phase. Throughout the report, it continues to say, look,
the transition was rushed.
Speaker 3 (05:58):
Well, we always knew that that.
Speaker 4 (05:59):
Was going to be the challenge and that was going
to be the time that needed the most work, and
so you needed to have the time to be able
to do that, not push them forward on what's seemed
to be very politically motivated timeframes.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
So Aaron, the minister has said that the government hasn't
decided on the structure of any future program. So if
you would prefer them to move towards more small, localized programs.
Do we have the resources in place within the communities
to make that happen well, So.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
This is one of the challenges. This is one of
the challenges. Right.
Speaker 4 (06:27):
So, in the midst of them rolling out this program,
they were also gutting, you know, community services and public
services which were actually undermining the kind of the social
infrastructure we need to have those transition phases be successful.
And so now we've had huge amounts of cuts happening
within our community space. You know, in the very year
that this kind of was coming out, the cut twenty
(06:48):
million that would have gone into youth housing services, the
sort of services you need to ensure that a project
like this could even be marginally successful. And so right now, no,
the resources aren't there, but that's a government decision, right,
So the government needs to decide to ensure that we
are investing in our communities so that we can care
for our kids and provide them with the support need.
And ironically, if you actually do the early intervention stuff well,
(07:11):
and you ensure that you have the right services in
your communities, and our communities are empowered to care for
our kids that's also your transition infrastructure at the same time.
And so look, if we invest really well on early intervention,
then you're going to have good support in that transition.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
Because that's going to be really important. Because you talked
about other very big broad issues that we have. You know,
you might have too many people living in your home,
poverty and not being able to you know, buy food,
mum struggling and all that kind of thing. They're really
big issues to have to deal with as well. So
is it if we try and get that early intervention
with a young person we can still have an impact
(07:47):
even if they're in that environment.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
Yeah, I mean it is. There is no sort of
bullet to this.
Speaker 4 (07:53):
I think this is something of a society we really
need to acknowledge, you know, of say the kids are
Canaris right, that they are really shooting a warning sign
of what is happening in our communities. They're a product
of the inequality and the poverty that we allow to
persist in our society. And so but we do need
to address all of those things. The environmental fact is
that that bring young people into conflict with the law.
The poverty, the homelessness, the support for farno that needs
(08:15):
to be focused on. But we can do a lot
more in terms of supporting FARNO in that early interventions phase.
And it often is grassroots community organizations that know their communities,
that know their fino, that are getting involved in the
lives of those who are struggling and are actually providing
responses to what's going on in their needs. And so,
you know, the opportunity for the government is actually to
come down to work with EU, to work with community
(08:36):
and actually start designing localized solutions and localized responses for
our Italian our tamidiki. One thing we need to continue
to remember is that youth crime has been going down
for decades, right, we've been on a decline. There's been
a small group of children which you know, we get
quite excited about in terms of the public conversation. There's
a small group of children where there are some challenges
(08:57):
and what are those challenges. It is rampant inequality, it's poverty,
it's you know, under the lack of support for children
with disabilities, lack of support for children with serious mens
to health concerns and that can support for their faro.
And so we actually know who these children are and
so we have an opportunity to actually go to the
community and resource the interventions we need in the local
community spaces where this is happening. So look, there is
(09:20):
heaps of hope, but it is about the government actually
deciding to step back. And again, I guess said, I
think a concern we had the way this military style
academy came about it the policy of this was driven
from government down rather than effective policy policy that is
actually centering our children. Should always start from the flax
roots and come up. You know, we should be engaging
(09:41):
first with e We should be engaging first with Farno
and community and experts and being informed by the evidence
and then building our policy from that surrounds our Tamaitiki
from their upwards. And that didn't happen in terms of
this project.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
Aaron, really appreciate your thoughts this morning. That was Youth
Development Worker Aaron Hendry.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
For more from the Sunday session with Francesca Rudken, listen
lived to us talks. There'd be from nine am Sunday,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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