Experts have voiced support for Labour's new bill requiring more reporting around tobacco lobbying - and there's growing calls for more transparency.
Reports also indicate alcohol lobbyists have been given input into health policies.
Transparency International New Zealand chair Anne Tolley says there needs to be more regulation and transparency around lobbying - so Kiwis can see who's involved.
"The problem is, we don't know who's talking to whom, how often, and what the results are. That's why we're asking for a register of lobbyists, much more transparency about who's talking to whom and how often - and then what the outcomes are."
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudkin
from News Talks ATB.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
So how much do we know about the extent of
lobbying in New Zealand? This week we saw Labor launch
and members bill to strengthen laws around tobacco industry lobbying.
It was also reported that alcohol lobbyists have been giving
input into health policies. So do any of us have
a good idea around the extent of lobbying in New Zealand?
Our lobbyists having too much input into important policy decisions?
(00:36):
And Tolly is the chair of Transparency International New Zealand
and a former National MP, and she joins me, now,
thanks for your time this morning.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
Anne, Good morning and happy Mother's days. All the mothers
that are listening, hopefully sitting up in bed having had
breakfast brought.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
To them, Well, wouldn't that be nice? At I haven't
heard from either of my children yet, but I'm just
presuming that's because they're not awake yet, so I'll give them.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
I'll give them some time anyway, give them the benefit
of the day.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
I shall, and do industry lobby groups have too much
input and to political decisions? Made in New Zealand.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Well, I think the problem is that we don't really know,
and that's the point that Transparency International has been making
for a number of years, and of course the Level
the Playing Field campaign that's being run by Health Coalition,
the Helen Clark Foundation and Transparency International New Zealand, the
(01:30):
campaign that we launched a few weeks ago saying there
needs to be regulation and there needs to be much
more transparency so that people can see who the lobbyists
are when they're lobbying and what are the results.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
When it comes to tobacco and alcohol specifically, two that
have been highlighted this week are those two areas that
need to be closely looked at given the health implications.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
Well, you know, look, I think that the members Bill
that you're referred to as a bit of a pr stunt,
and that's understand all that's about politics, but we've got
to be very careful that. You know, we believe in
free freedom of speech and we believe that everyone should
have their own views. Now, honestly, I've never met a
(02:16):
health minister of any political color who doesn't really care
about the health of New Zealand. So we've got to
be careful that we don't insult them by saying that
they make decisions based on lobbyists rather than putting the
health of New Zealanders first. But the problem is we
don't know who's talking to whom, how often, and what
(02:37):
the results are, so that you know, that's why we're
asking for a register of lobbyists, much more transparency about
who's talking to whom and how often, and and then
what what the outcomes are. And then people can judge
for themselves whether in fact decisions are being made, you know,
(02:57):
for the right for the right reasons or that all
and everyone will have their own view about what is
the right the right decision. But it isn't always about health.
Sometimes it's about the economic cost of putting some of
these regulations on, et cetera.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Et cetera, because could you set rules around some industries
and not others when it comes to lobbying.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
Well, that's the danger, isn't it that you say these
are more important than those Well, actually they're part of
our life now, and particularly around howth people get very
focused and you know, local governments go through local alcohol policies.
They're they're they're not only considering the health of the
(03:37):
people in their communities. But they're looking at access and
how easy the system is, you know, for people to
look for the for the people who treat alcohol normally
to get to get access to something that is a
legal product. So you know, you've got to be very
careful you don't pack winners and losers. As you said,
you know, people are good to talk to and these
(03:58):
people aren't exactly the problem.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
And as you said, look, everybody deserves to have their
say and keep their point of view across. But is
there point when it comes to actually creating policy whereby
that access is limited.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
Well, that's the problem. You say, these people are bad,
therefore they can't have as much time as these people
that have got that's the difficulty you get into and
that's not the sort of country that we want. But
when you're making policy, you need as a minister, you
need to be ensuring that you're getting a wide and
(04:34):
when it comes to the cabinet table, because remember no
individual minister makes a policy and puts it into place,
it's got to go to cabinet and so it's got
to get that whole of government. In this case, we've
got three different parties, so that process would be quite
quite difficult. Most coalition governments that we've had, you've had
(04:55):
one or two or sometimes three parties, so it's quite
a process. And so there's a lot of things that
you're taking into accounts. So you want to make sure
that you're getting as wide a range of advice on
on a on a wide range of issues to do
with that policy as you possibly can. Some of it
is that would be about in the case of alcohol
(05:17):
and health and smoking would be about health. Some of
it might be about the cost. You know, in tobacco,
we've we've put the we've found that putting the price
of tobacco up has been the most effective. So so
there's all different sorts of considerations, but at the heart
of it, most ministers are looking to do the right
thing for the best the best thing for New Zealanders.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
And when you were a minister, how often were you
dealing with industry lobby groups.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
All well, all the time. I mean, and Transparency International
is a lobby group. It's not. It's not just industry
lobby groups. There's civil society lobby groups. You know, you
step outside your door, you go to the supermarket, someone's
lobbying you about something they think that the government should
be doing or you, as an individual MP should be doing,
and that's that's good, that's that's representation government that we have.
(06:10):
But you always take that as their point of view,
and often you will try and match that with a
counterpoint of view.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Are we well regulated when it comes to lobbying? Where
do we sort of as so.
Speaker 3 (06:23):
We're not at all, And Transparency International has been calling
and that coalition of the Three have been calling for
more regular we're out of step with similar countries like
Australia and the UK, and in Canada and even the
US have more regulation around their lobbyists. So you know
(06:45):
where we want a register of lobbyists. We want to
see who's We want ministers to be much more transparent
about who they're actually talking to and how often they're
talking to them. So we need a register that's that's
publicly accessible, a code, a mandatory code of conduct. At
the moment, they just have a voluntary code of we'd
(07:07):
like to see a mandatory code of conduct. We want
a calling off period, because you can go from being
a minister to being a lobbyist, an industry lobbyist the
next day after you've resigned from parliament and again we're
out of step with similar countries who have rules and
regulations about that.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
And TOLLI thank you so much for your time this morning,
really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
For more from the Sunday Session with Francesca Rudkin, listen
live to news Talks there'd be from nine am Sunday,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudkin
from News Talks ATB.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
So how much do we know about the extent of
lobbying in New Zealand? This week we saw Labor launch
and members bill to strengthen laws around tobacco industry lobbying.
It was also reported that alcohol lobbyists have been giving
input into health policies. So do any of us have
a good idea around the extent of lobbying in New Zealand?
Our lobbyists having too much input into important policy decisions?
(00:36):
And Tolly is the chair of Transparency International New Zealand
and a former National MP, and she joins me, now,
thanks for your time this morning.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
Anne, Good morning and happy Mother's days. All the mothers
that are listening, hopefully sitting up in bed having had
breakfast brought.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
To them, Well, wouldn't that be nice? At I haven't
heard from either of my children yet, but I'm just
presuming that's because they're not awake yet, so I'll give them.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
I'll give them some time anyway, give them the benefit
of the day.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
I shall, and do industry lobby groups have too much
input and to political decisions? Made in New Zealand.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Well, I think the problem is that we don't really know,
and that's the point that Transparency International has been making
for a number of years, and of course the Level
the Playing Field campaign that's being run by Health Coalition,
the Helen Clark Foundation and Transparency International New Zealand, the
(01:30):
campaign that we launched a few weeks ago saying there
needs to be regulation and there needs to be much
more transparency so that people can see who the lobbyists
are when they're lobbying and what are the results.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
When it comes to tobacco and alcohol specifically, two that
have been highlighted this week are those two areas that
need to be closely looked at given the health implications.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
Well, you know, look, I think that the members Bill
that you're referred to as a bit of a pr stunt,
and that's understand all that's about politics, but we've got
to be very careful that. You know, we believe in
free freedom of speech and we believe that everyone should
have their own views. Now, honestly, I've never met a
(02:16):
health minister of any political color who doesn't really care
about the health of New Zealand. So we've got to
be careful that we don't insult them by saying that
they make decisions based on lobbyists rather than putting the
health of New Zealanders first. But the problem is we
don't know who's talking to whom, how often, and what
(02:37):
the results are, so that you know, that's why we're
asking for a register of lobbyists, much more transparency about
who's talking to whom and how often, and and then
what what the outcomes are. And then people can judge
for themselves whether in fact decisions are being made, you know,
(02:57):
for the right for the right reasons or that all
and everyone will have their own view about what is
the right the right decision. But it isn't always about health.
Sometimes it's about the economic cost of putting some of
these regulations on, et cetera.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Et cetera, because could you set rules around some industries
and not others when it comes to lobbying.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
Well, that's the danger, isn't it that you say these
are more important than those Well, actually they're part of
our life now, and particularly around howth people get very
focused and you know, local governments go through local alcohol policies.
They're they're they're not only considering the health of the
(03:37):
people in their communities. But they're looking at access and
how easy the system is, you know, for people to
look for the for the people who treat alcohol normally
to get to get access to something that is a
legal product. So you know, you've got to be very
careful you don't pack winners and losers. As you said,
you know, people are good to talk to and these
(03:58):
people aren't exactly the problem.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
And as you said, look, everybody deserves to have their
say and keep their point of view across. But is
there point when it comes to actually creating policy whereby
that access is limited.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
Well, that's the problem. You say, these people are bad,
therefore they can't have as much time as these people
that have got that's the difficulty you get into and
that's not the sort of country that we want. But
when you're making policy, you need as a minister, you
need to be ensuring that you're getting a wide and
(04:34):
when it comes to the cabinet table, because remember no
individual minister makes a policy and puts it into place,
it's got to go to cabinet and so it's got
to get that whole of government. In this case, we've
got three different parties, so that process would be quite
quite difficult. Most coalition governments that we've had, you've had
(04:55):
one or two or sometimes three parties, so it's quite
a process. And so there's a lot of things that
you're taking into accounts. So you want to make sure
that you're getting as wide a range of advice on
on a on a wide range of issues to do
with that policy as you possibly can. Some of it
is that would be about in the case of alcohol
(05:17):
and health and smoking would be about health. Some of
it might be about the cost. You know, in tobacco,
we've we've put the we've found that putting the price
of tobacco up has been the most effective. So so
there's all different sorts of considerations, but at the heart
of it, most ministers are looking to do the right
thing for the best the best thing for New Zealanders.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
And when you were a minister, how often were you
dealing with industry lobby groups.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
All well, all the time. I mean, and Transparency International
is a lobby group. It's not. It's not just industry
lobby groups. There's civil society lobby groups. You know, you
step outside your door, you go to the supermarket, someone's
lobbying you about something they think that the government should
be doing or you, as an individual MP should be doing,
and that's that's good, that's that's representation government that we have.
(06:10):
But you always take that as their point of view,
and often you will try and match that with a
counterpoint of view.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Are we well regulated when it comes to lobbying? Where
do we sort of as so.
Speaker 3 (06:23):
We're not at all, And Transparency International has been calling
and that coalition of the Three have been calling for
more regular we're out of step with similar countries like
Australia and the UK, and in Canada and even the
US have more regulation around their lobbyists. So you know
(06:45):
where we want a register of lobbyists. We want to
see who's We want ministers to be much more transparent
about who they're actually talking to and how often they're
talking to them. So we need a register that's that's
publicly accessible, a code, a mandatory code of conduct. At
the moment, they just have a voluntary code of we'd
(07:07):
like to see a mandatory code of conduct. We want
a calling off period, because you can go from being
a minister to being a lobbyist, an industry lobbyist the
next day after you've resigned from parliament and again we're
out of step with similar countries who have rules and
regulations about that.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
And TOLLI thank you so much for your time this morning,
really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
For more from the Sunday Session with Francesca Rudkin, listen
live to news Talks there'd be from nine am Sunday,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
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